March 21, 2025 • 22 mins
When Moses noticed a burning bush and decided to investigate rather than ignore it, he unwittingly set in motion events that would liberate an entire people from slavery. What might happen if we approached our faith with similar holy curiosity?
In this episode, Melissa and Bishop Wright have a conversation about remaining curious with our faith matters. They discuss how curiosity serves as the gateway to authentic worship and meaningful action. Our willingness to approach the unusual, to ask questions rather than settle for easy answers, often precedes our most profound encounters with God. Listen in for the full conversation.
This episode is based on part 3 of Bishop Wright's 5-part Lenten series "Growing Up in Christ!". Learn more about this year's series, watch the weekly videos, and download the reflection guides here.
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Episode Transcript
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Bishop Wright (00:00):
When we're sitting across from people who
see the world radicallydifferent.
Maybe we shouldn't start withthis question, "how could you?
Maybe we should start with thisquestion tell me about what
you're afraid of.
To be curious about God is towant to try to do and see the
world as God does and sees, andthat has to do with throwing
(00:21):
dissimilar things together andtrying to make community out of
it.
So that's why we need to becurious about who God is.
Melissa (00:45):
Welcome to For People with Bishop Rob Wright.
I'm Melissa Rau and over thecourse of the season of Lent,
bishop and I will be having aconversation based on Growing Up
in Christ, a Lenten curriculumand video series produced by the
Episcopal Diocese of Atlanta.
You can access the videos andaccompanying material at www.
episcopalatlanta.
org.
These resources are perfect foryour individual Lenten devotion
(01:07):
or small group study.
Good morning, bishop.
Bishop Wright (01:11):
Good morning.
Melissa (01:12):
So this week's devotion you named Curiosity and it's
based off a number of scripturepassages, but you really hone in
on Exodus, chapter 3, verses 1through 15, where Moses is
really curious about the burningbush which just is a domino
(01:32):
effect and leads Moses intohelping the Hebrew people leave
Egypt.
So tell me more about what yourthoughts about curiosity are,
because I am so curious.
Bishop Wright (01:47):
Yeah, right, so well, I, I think, um, what we
should acknowledge is is thatit's, it's curiosity that leads
us to, you know, wonderful open,you know, new open doorways in
life and with God.
It's wonder, being curiousabout that, how's that work, to
(02:11):
hear the stories of Jesus, tohear the stories of scripture
and to wonder a little bit.
I started off my ordained lifeas a school chaplain, the, you
know, the kids just ask the bestquestions and it's just amazing
to see how their minds work.
And you know, sadly, somethingwe lose some part of that, I
(02:33):
think, as we get older and goalong.
But you know, it occurs to methat you know Moses is going on
about his life.
He married up, he married agirl whose dad had a business.
Moses is a runaway from Egypt.
He's a felon.
He's murdered someone.
He's on the run.
He lands in Jethro's family andlife is good.
(02:58):
Life is good.
He's got a wife.
He's got a kid.
He's got good work, wife, he'sgot a kid, he's got good work.
Uh and uh, off in the distance,he sees this light, this bush
on fire, and he's curious aboutit.
He could have wrote it off inhis mind.
He could have said, hey, look,that's just maybe a lightning
strike or, you know, just abrush fire.
He could have wrote it off, uh,but he walks closer and him
(03:21):
walking closer, him curious.
Really.
That is the moment when Pharaoh, over in Egypt, should shudder,
because that is the moment thatunleashes all the other moments
that ultimately end up inEgypt's defeat.
Melissa (03:37):
Bishop, you mentioned being a chaplain of children,
asking the best questions, etcetera, and I can't help but
wonder sometimes.
I think society beats thecuriosity out of us by warning
us, and I think that is oftenthe thing that gets in the way
of following a curiosity thatone might have is fear.
Bishop Wright (03:59):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, you know, I think that you
know we get life gets soflattened out for so many of us
is that we get so busy.
And you know, curiosity leadssometimes to inconvenient and
impractical sort of it leads usin you know, impractical and
inconvenient directions.
You know curiosity is sort ofmaybe even is considered by some
(04:21):
as the play thing of youngerpeople or people who have the
luxury of being able toentertain those sorts of things.
I took a class some time ago,actually at the beginning of
COVID, at the Sloan School atMIT, and loved it so much.
It was about the inquiry, itwas about inquiry, it was about
(04:44):
the inquiry, it was aboutinquiry and it was about
leadership and inquiry.
And basically what they weresaying was that you know when
you've reached, you know as faras our knowledge can take us,
and certainly we experiencedthat in COVID.
Right, only asking betterquestions, only being curious,
(05:07):
is going to serve you goingforward.
And it was one of the best.
Even though it was, it wasmeant to sort of be leadership.
Continuing education is one ofthe best classes I ever took
because it it reminded me thatto create a space where people
can ask good questions and beencouraged to ask questions.
That really is good spiritualformation work, Right, and it,
(05:30):
you know, it's curiosity, uh,that leads us down into our
authentic questions about who weare and about who God is and
what the nature of life is.
Um, you know, you know, remember, it's curiosity that gets Moses
to the bush and it's, you know,getting to the bush is where
Moses has his real encounter,you know, with God.
(05:52):
And that changes everything.
And God knows his name and Godknows his past, and God knows
that he has a physicalimpairment, he's a stutterer,
and God embraces all of whoMoses is.
And curiosity unleashes that.
And just imagine it unleashes,you know, the deliverer in him.
(06:14):
It unleashes his most faithfulchapter in life, his most
selfless chapter in life.
Chapter in life he gets tounderstand that he is co-creator
with God in meeting hispeople's desperate need for
freedom.
So it's curiosity that unlocksall of this.
Melissa (06:38):
Yeah, you highlight the pattern of to learn, know, grow
and go.
Yeah, and I think that'sfabulous.
You know, curiosity, I think,is what leads to learning, and
yet sometimes I feel like thegreat questions that some folks
will ask are cheapened bypeople's attempts to answer them
(07:00):
.
Bishop Wright (07:01):
That's right, that's right.
Melissa (07:03):
You know, and so you know.
I think I read the bookQuestions Are the Answer.
I think that might have comeout from talking with you, and
it was a fabulous book.
I just think sometimes we don'tmake enough space for others in
the room to be curious, becausewe just want to give them the
answer.
Bishop Wright (07:21):
Well, yeah, and this is interesting about God,
right?
So when God has thisconversation with Moses at the
burning bush, you know, God sayssomething really sort of
annoying.
You might say God says, well, Iam who I am right, or I am that
I am, I am what I am, you know.
It's like what the hell do youdo with that, you know?
And so Moses's curiosity didn'tturn into easy answers, right?
(07:44):
Moses's curiosity turned into arelationship.
Melissa (07:48):
So what does that mean for us, though, bishop, as
teachers or people who might beforming the rising generations,
who may not want to knock thecuriosity out of our rising
generations, do you have anywisdom for?
The older people in the room.
Bishop Wright (08:04):
No wisdom.
I don't think I can tell youwhat I've learned over the years
, and that is that I've had toself-manage.
I have to manage my own need tohave answers, okay, um, and
create space for people who needto find their answers right.
So, create a space for peopleto do the work and to do the due
diligence right, with integrity, but not answer you know things
(08:26):
for them.
I mean, you know this is justthe beginning of Moses and God's
relationship.
You know Moses gets to learn alot about God as he goes on the
frustrating aspects of God, thetremendous, sovereign aspects of
God, um, you aspects of God.
You know God's timeline versushis timeline, so it ends up
really being a relationship andso, yeah, I mean, we want to
(08:46):
answer, we want to hold spacefor people as much as we can
facilitate their learning andgrowth, but the truth of the
matter is, when it comes to God,you know, the best of what we
can offer each other is just alittle bit of our experience,
understanding that we know somepart of it, but they have to,
you know, do the work and to getto know God, you know, for
(09:08):
themselves, and this happensover time, and so answers can
only unlock.
You know their willingness tocontinue the journey on, and
that's what
Melissa (09:41):
And so what about assuredness?
You know, I think you mighthave said don't be so sure.
I'm curious where that comesinto play with authentic worship
and how assuredness mightactually get in the way,
sometimes, of wonder and awe.
Bishop Wright (10:06):
Yeah, I mean I think that assuredness I mean
you know the way I would sayassuredness is God confidence.
Right, how do I have confidencethat God is actually
trustworthy?
I mean the Bible points in thatdirection and we're blessed to
meet some people who know God.
Then we get a slice of that, aglimpse of that, that somehow
God has shown up trustworthy intheir lives, in their real life,
not just a Sunday life.
And so I think that what we dois we want to move towards God
(10:27):
confidence.
I think you know faith says,you know that it's the assurance
of things you know, hoped for,the evidence of things not seen
right.
So I mean you know, when I say,when we say assurance, we have
to be really careful about whatwe're talking about, right?
So is God real, able, good andgenerous?
Yes, that is my confessionalanswer.
(10:48):
That is my experience over 61years and I have earned that and
I got the scars from all ofthat.
I know what it feels like tofeel the absence of God, the
absence of answers, the absenceof care.
You know the absence ofcommunity.
I know what all of that feelslike.
I know what it's like towrestle profoundly with doubt.
I know what it feels like tosay well, I'm just going to
(11:11):
believe in God, but I'm chuckingall of this community notion.
It's just going to be me andyou, god, you know, I know what
that feels like as well and Ithink any assuredness that we
have any God confidence that wehave.
Again, curiosity is sort of thejet fuel for that, but it's
lived out in relationship withGod.
And so what helps us?
(11:33):
Well, worship and hearing thetestimony of others, hearing the
sermons of others, hearing thetruth experience of others with
God.
But also as we make our waythrough the 66 books of the
Bible, you know, we begin toaccumulate friends on the
journey.
It's not just a sort of a bookat intellectual distance, but we
begin to wonder what it musthave been like to be Elizabeth
(11:54):
or Mary or Abraham or Sarah orRachel, et cetera, and we begin
to see some of ourselves inthose stories and they become
friends, and they become friendsthat help us to be strong along
the way.
They are friends.
We can take our doubts and ourconsternation to right, but the
upstream of all of that, I think, is this holy notion of can we
(12:16):
stay curious?
I mean, that's probably theworst enemy of faith I don't
think is atheism or disbelief.
I think it's a flattened outone-dimensional faith that just
goes stale over time.
Melissa (12:28):
Yeah, I like the idea of being foreclosed.
If we figured it all out well,then there's really nowhere else
to go.
I love that.
You said wonder became worship,and therefore what is the
stance of worship that one mightconsider taking in this Lenten
(12:51):
time?
How might we worshipdifferently, with wonder at the
center?
Bishop Wright (12:56):
Well, I mean, you can start with a question,
right?
So you know, when we travel tothe mountains or we're down to
the shore or wherever we findourselves hugging the grandbaby,
or you know in those momentsthat we know that, we know that,
we know we can ask ourselveswho is this God?
You know this God who createdthis morning.
Who is this God who createdthis mountain?
(13:18):
Who is this God who knows, youknow, every drop of water in the
ocean.
Who is this God who has thisoutrageous imagination that
makes ants and blue whales?
You know both.
Who is this God, right?
Who you know?
When we look at our own biology, for instance, you know when we
look at skin and flesh and welook at its resilience, right
(13:41):
and its elasticity, and you knowall those sorts of things, and
we look at what's going on withour human body.
I mean, all of that is aboutwonder.
And who is this God?
Who is this creative God andwho is this God that is so high
above us and yet seems,according to Scripture, to
delight in finding ways to getbeside us?
(14:02):
So we can start off withquestions.
I just imagine that Moseswalked away from that burning
bush and said what the hell.
What did I just see?
You know this is God.
Did God show up to me?
I'm a little nobody, In fact, Imissed the mark in so many
cases.
Right, I mean, I was put up foradoption, floated down a river,
(14:25):
raised by people not my parents, raised in a foreign culture.
I mean he could go on and yethere is this God showing up and
asking me, inviting me right tobe a representative ambassador.
So I mean I think we can startwith maybe who is this God?
Kind of an audit.
You know, who is this God thathas given me the gray matter
(14:49):
that I need to make it in thisworld?
Who is this God who has kept mesafe over the night, right, and
give me a purpose and aprivilege to serve in God's name
?
You know, in the morning, andon and on and on.
You know I say these kinds ofthings, but what I really just
want to prompt is people'scuriosity.
I mean, that's another thingI've learned over years in
(15:10):
ministry is to sort of botherpeople with the things, like I'm
saying on this podcast, so thatthey can take it and, in their
own quiet time, begin to makeuse of it like some sort of
spiritual buffet, take thethings that seem to make sense
to them or seem to confound them, and chew on it and work on it.
And you know, I think that'swhat God does with our curiosity
(15:31):
.
You know, remember, thiscuriosity is about us drawing
near to God and God being sogood that God can meet us at any
of our questions.
This is why I like the Psalms.
I've said it again and againthe Psalms have the curiosity
there.
Who is this God who hangs thesun, moon and stars in the
universe like Christmas lights?
(15:52):
Who is this God and why didthis God even bother with me?
These are questions, I pray,that really move us from wonder
to worship.
And so if I work down that line, then at some point I have to
say wow, which is the first wordof worship, wow, right, you
know, this is extraordinary.
(16:12):
And whether I have all theanswers about who God is and who
God has been and what's thisand what's that, I can say for
myself that there is a majestyto this God.
There is a majesty that peoplefrom all over the world have
found in this God, and I cancelebrate that.
(16:35):
That's what worship is at itspurest form.
I celebrate the majesty of God,I want nothing from it right
now.
I mean, we can ask for stufflater, but right now I just want
to celebrate the majesty of God.
Melissa (16:47):
So, bishop, I guess this is where the rubber meets
the road.
For me, the hard part aboutremaining curious is not so much
about God as the concept of God, because I always say like,
yeah, god and I are good.
What I sometimes forget is thatGod is in each and every one of
us, including the people who,just I, cannot understand at all
(17:09):
.
And so how do we remain curiousabout the other?
Bishop Wright (17:17):
Yeah, I mean, I think it's very natural to end
up either really defensive inthe presence of other, and
certainly in the presence ofdisagreement.
It's what makes us human.
Um, I think it's also um veryhuman to become indifferent or
antagonistic uh you know todifference or in the face of
(17:39):
difference.
I think, here again, curiosityhelps us.
If we manage ourself and wantto move into a more mature
approach to all this, we can becurious.
Um, you know, I I've heardpeople talk in terms of when
we're sitting across from peoplewho see the world radically
different.
Maybe we shouldn't start withthis question.
(17:59):
How could you?
Maybe we should start with thisquestion.
Tell me about what you'reafraid of.
Tell me about what keeps you upat night.
Tell me about what you worryabout when you think about your
grandchildren.
I think that kind of curiosityhelps us to build some
(18:20):
solidarity with people that wemight not, that we might sort of
be amazed that we can findsolidarity with.
I mean, at the end of the day,human beings are pretty similar.
I mean, we express ourselvessometimes very differently, but
we're mostly afraid of things.
We're mostly moved to tears,you know, by love and by
(18:42):
compassion.
Sometimes we can be selfish.
Sometimes we can be magnanimous.
I mean, we sort of possess lotsof similarities wherever you
find us on the planet, right?
And so I think that to becurious about God is to want to
try to do and see the world asGod does and sees, and that has
(19:08):
to do with throwing dissimilarthings together and trying to
make community out of it, andthis is the genius of God.
So curiosity, wonder, moves usto worship and worship moves us
to praxis, to application, right.
And so if I worship God and Isay your majesty is mind-blowing
God, then what that should dois de-center me just enough to
(19:31):
where I can want to see theworld from God's perspective,
right?
I mean, it's no small thingthat we say as Christians that
Jesus came among us as one of us, right, and lived among us, and
he came to nobodies fromnowhere, so to speak.
And so it's interesting to thensee if we can walk alongside
the way that he tried to makecommunity with lots of different
(19:52):
people.
Now I'm working on an address tothe House of Bishops, coming up
, and it's not lost on me thatJesus spent time in the head of
the Pharisees' home at a dinnerparty, and so you know, sort of
an uninformed approach to Jesusis to think that he was always
adversarial.
Sort of an uninformed approachto Jesus is to think that he was
(20:14):
always adversarial to thePharisees and the Sadducees and
those folks who were thereligious formal authorities.
But a closer read, right?
A deeper, slower read, tells ushe was trying to make community
with all kinds of people, andit may be that he wasn't
adversarial at all.
It may be that he loved them somuch that he kept trying to
correct, right, because he couldhave just become exasperated
(20:39):
and walked away, right.
But it seems like the purposesof God are trying to hold
together for us and to us, whatwe see is radically dissimilar,
and so that's why we need to becurious about who God is.
I mean, think about what Godtells Moses.
You, you, little nobody.
You're getting ready to becurious about who God is.
I mean, think about what Godtells Moses.
You, you, little nobody.
You're getting ready to be thetip of the spear here to defeat
(20:59):
the world's most formidableempire.
You're getting ready to do that, and you know I'm not sending
you with chariots and horses,right.
There's no technology comingfrom another nation to assist
you.
You're going to walk in therewith a staff, right as an outlaw
, and you're going to tell thisculture that you know because
you were raised up in it, rightin Egypt's finest schools.
(21:22):
You were raised.
You're going to walk into thatmilieu and you're going to say,
all right, guys, you know theeconomy of extraction and abuse
and oppression is over.
Right, we're going a differentdirection.
Thus saith the Lord.
Melissa (21:38):
Oh, praise be to God for that.
Bishop Wright (21:40):
You got to just see the cure, you just got to be
curious about wow, god justsets up scenarios that seem so
impossible that only God couldpull it off, and that has to
make us curious.
And, as I like to say, I'lljust bet when his people
eventually walk out of Egyptafter 400 years of bitter
(22:03):
bondage and chattel slavery,I'll just bet Moses was glad he
was curious that day about thatbush on fire.
Melissa (22:12):
Indeed indeed, bishop.
Thank you and listeners, thankyou for tuning in to For People.
You can follow us on Instagramand Facebook at Bishop Rob
Wright, or by visiting www.
forpeople.
digital.
Please subscribe, leave areview and we'll be back with
you next week.
When we're sitting across from people who
see the world radicallydifferent.
Maybe we shouldn't start withthis question, "how could you?
Maybe we should start with thisquestion tell me about what
you're afraid of.
To be curious about God is towant to try to do and see the
world as God does and sees, andthat has to do with throwing
(00:21):
dissimilar things together andtrying to make community out of
it.
So that's why we need to becurious about who God is.
Melissa (00:45):
Welcome to For People with Bishop Rob Wright.
I'm Melissa Rau and over thecourse of the season of Lent,
bishop and I will be having aconversation based on Growing Up
in Christ, a Lenten curriculumand video series produced by the
Episcopal Diocese of Atlanta.
You can access the videos andaccompanying material at www.
episcopalatlanta.
org.
These resources are perfect foryour individual Lenten devotion
(01:07):
or small group study.
Good morning, bishop.
Bishop Wright (01:11):
Good morning.
Melissa (01:12):
So this week's devotion you named Curiosity and it's
based off a number of scripturepassages, but you really hone in
on Exodus, chapter 3, verses 1through 15, where Moses is
really curious about the burningbush which just is a domino
(01:32):
effect and leads Moses intohelping the Hebrew people leave
Egypt.
So tell me more about what yourthoughts about curiosity are,
because I am so curious.
Bishop Wright (01:47):
Yeah, right, so well, I, I think, um, what we
should acknowledge is is thatit's, it's curiosity that leads
us to, you know, wonderful open,you know, new open doorways in
life and with God.
It's wonder, being curiousabout that, how's that work, to
(02:11):
hear the stories of Jesus, tohear the stories of scripture
and to wonder a little bit.
I started off my ordained lifeas a school chaplain, the, you
know, the kids just ask the bestquestions and it's just amazing
to see how their minds work.
And you know, sadly, somethingwe lose some part of that, I
(02:33):
think, as we get older and goalong.
But you know, it occurs to methat you know Moses is going on
about his life.
He married up, he married agirl whose dad had a business.
Moses is a runaway from Egypt.
He's a felon.
He's murdered someone.
He's on the run.
He lands in Jethro's family andlife is good.
(02:58):
Life is good.
He's got a wife.
He's got a kid.
He's got good work, wife, he'sgot a kid, he's got good work.
Uh and uh, off in the distance,he sees this light, this bush
on fire, and he's curious aboutit.
He could have wrote it off inhis mind.
He could have said, hey, look,that's just maybe a lightning
strike or, you know, just abrush fire.
He could have wrote it off, uh,but he walks closer and him
(03:21):
walking closer, him curious.
Really.
That is the moment when Pharaoh, over in Egypt, should shudder,
because that is the moment thatunleashes all the other moments
that ultimately end up inEgypt's defeat.
Melissa (03:37):
Bishop, you mentioned being a chaplain of children,
asking the best questions, etcetera, and I can't help but
wonder sometimes.
I think society beats thecuriosity out of us by warning
us, and I think that is oftenthe thing that gets in the way
of following a curiosity thatone might have is fear.
Bishop Wright (03:59):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, you know, I think that you
know we get life gets soflattened out for so many of us
is that we get so busy.
And you know, curiosity leadssometimes to inconvenient and
impractical sort of it leads usin you know, impractical and
inconvenient directions.
You know curiosity is sort ofmaybe even is considered by some
(04:21):
as the play thing of youngerpeople or people who have the
luxury of being able toentertain those sorts of things.
I took a class some time ago,actually at the beginning of
COVID, at the Sloan School atMIT, and loved it so much.
It was about the inquiry, itwas about inquiry, it was about
(04:44):
the inquiry, it was aboutinquiry and it was about
leadership and inquiry.
And basically what they weresaying was that you know when
you've reached, you know as faras our knowledge can take us,
and certainly we experiencedthat in COVID.
Right, only asking betterquestions, only being curious,
(05:07):
is going to serve you goingforward.
And it was one of the best.
Even though it was, it wasmeant to sort of be leadership.
Continuing education is one ofthe best classes I ever took
because it it reminded me thatto create a space where people
can ask good questions and beencouraged to ask questions.
That really is good spiritualformation work, Right, and it,
(05:30):
you know, it's curiosity, uh,that leads us down into our
authentic questions about who weare and about who God is and
what the nature of life is.
Um, you know, you know, remember, it's curiosity that gets Moses
to the bush and it's, you know,getting to the bush is where
Moses has his real encounter,you know, with God.
(05:52):
And that changes everything.
And God knows his name and Godknows his past, and God knows
that he has a physicalimpairment, he's a stutterer,
and God embraces all of whoMoses is.
And curiosity unleashes that.
And just imagine it unleashes,you know, the deliverer in him.
(06:14):
It unleashes his most faithfulchapter in life, his most
selfless chapter in life.
Chapter in life he gets tounderstand that he is co-creator
with God in meeting hispeople's desperate need for
freedom.
So it's curiosity that unlocksall of this.
Melissa (06:38):
Yeah, you highlight the pattern of to learn, know, grow
and go.
Yeah, and I think that'sfabulous.
You know, curiosity, I think,is what leads to learning, and
yet sometimes I feel like thegreat questions that some folks
will ask are cheapened bypeople's attempts to answer them
(07:00):
.
Bishop Wright (07:01):
That's right, that's right.
Melissa (07:03):
You know, and so you know.
I think I read the bookQuestions Are the Answer.
I think that might have comeout from talking with you, and
it was a fabulous book.
I just think sometimes we don'tmake enough space for others in
the room to be curious, becausewe just want to give them the
answer.
Bishop Wright (07:21):
Well, yeah, and this is interesting about God,
right?
So when God has thisconversation with Moses at the
burning bush, you know, God sayssomething really sort of
annoying.
You might say God says, well, Iam who I am right, or I am that
I am, I am what I am, you know.
It's like what the hell do youdo with that, you know?
And so Moses's curiosity didn'tturn into easy answers, right?
(07:44):
Moses's curiosity turned into arelationship.
Melissa (07:48):
So what does that mean for us, though, bishop, as
teachers or people who might beforming the rising generations,
who may not want to knock thecuriosity out of our rising
generations, do you have anywisdom for?
The older people in the room.
Bishop Wright (08:04):
No wisdom.
I don't think I can tell youwhat I've learned over the years
, and that is that I've had toself-manage.
I have to manage my own need tohave answers, okay, um, and
create space for people who needto find their answers right.
So, create a space for peopleto do the work and to do the due
diligence right, with integrity, but not answer you know things
(08:26):
for them.
I mean, you know this is justthe beginning of Moses and God's
relationship.
You know Moses gets to learn alot about God as he goes on the
frustrating aspects of God, thetremendous, sovereign aspects of
God, um, you aspects of God.
You know God's timeline versushis timeline, so it ends up
really being a relationship andso, yeah, I mean, we want to
(08:46):
answer, we want to hold spacefor people as much as we can
facilitate their learning andgrowth, but the truth of the
matter is, when it comes to God,you know, the best of what we
can offer each other is just alittle bit of our experience,
understanding that we know somepart of it, but they have to,
you know, do the work and to getto know God, you know, for
(09:08):
themselves, and this happensover time, and so answers can
only unlock.
You know their willingness tocontinue the journey on, and
that's what
Melissa (09:41):
And so what about assuredness?
You know, I think you mighthave said don't be so sure.
I'm curious where that comesinto play with authentic worship
and how assuredness mightactually get in the way,
sometimes, of wonder and awe.
Bishop Wright (10:06):
Yeah, I mean I think that assuredness I mean
you know the way I would sayassuredness is God confidence.
Right, how do I have confidencethat God is actually
trustworthy?
I mean the Bible points in thatdirection and we're blessed to
meet some people who know God.
Then we get a slice of that, aglimpse of that, that somehow
God has shown up trustworthy intheir lives, in their real life,
not just a Sunday life.
And so I think that what we dois we want to move towards God
(10:27):
confidence.
I think you know faith says,you know that it's the assurance
of things you know, hoped for,the evidence of things not seen
right.
So I mean you know, when I say,when we say assurance, we have
to be really careful about whatwe're talking about, right?
So is God real, able, good andgenerous?
Yes, that is my confessionalanswer.
(10:48):
That is my experience over 61years and I have earned that and
I got the scars from all ofthat.
I know what it feels like tofeel the absence of God, the
absence of answers, the absenceof care.
You know the absence ofcommunity.
I know what all of that feelslike.
I know what it's like towrestle profoundly with doubt.
I know what it feels like tosay well, I'm just going to
(11:11):
believe in God, but I'm chuckingall of this community notion.
It's just going to be me andyou, god, you know, I know what
that feels like as well and Ithink any assuredness that we
have any God confidence that wehave.
Again, curiosity is sort of thejet fuel for that, but it's
lived out in relationship withGod.
And so what helps us?
(11:33):
Well, worship and hearing thetestimony of others, hearing the
sermons of others, hearing thetruth experience of others with
God.
But also as we make our waythrough the 66 books of the
Bible, you know, we begin toaccumulate friends on the
journey.
It's not just a sort of a bookat intellectual distance, but we
begin to wonder what it musthave been like to be Elizabeth
(11:54):
or Mary or Abraham or Sarah orRachel, et cetera, and we begin
to see some of ourselves inthose stories and they become
friends, and they become friendsthat help us to be strong along
the way.
They are friends.
We can take our doubts and ourconsternation to right, but the
upstream of all of that, I think, is this holy notion of can we
(12:16):
stay curious?
I mean, that's probably theworst enemy of faith I don't
think is atheism or disbelief.
I think it's a flattened outone-dimensional faith that just
goes stale over time.
Melissa (12:28):
Yeah, I like the idea of being foreclosed.
If we figured it all out well,then there's really nowhere else
to go.
I love that.
You said wonder became worship,and therefore what is the
stance of worship that one mightconsider taking in this Lenten
(12:51):
time?
How might we worshipdifferently, with wonder at the
center?
Bishop Wright (12:56):
Well, I mean, you can start with a question,
right?
So you know, when we travel tothe mountains or we're down to
the shore or wherever we findourselves hugging the grandbaby,
or you know in those momentsthat we know that, we know that,
we know we can ask ourselveswho is this God?
You know this God who createdthis morning.
Who is this God who createdthis mountain?
(13:18):
Who is this God who knows, youknow, every drop of water in the
ocean.
Who is this God who has thisoutrageous imagination that
makes ants and blue whales?
You know both.
Who is this God, right?
Who you know?
When we look at our own biology, for instance, you know when we
look at skin and flesh and welook at its resilience, right
(13:41):
and its elasticity, and you knowall those sorts of things, and
we look at what's going on withour human body.
I mean, all of that is aboutwonder.
And who is this God?
Who is this creative God andwho is this God that is so high
above us and yet seems,according to Scripture, to
delight in finding ways to getbeside us?
(14:02):
So we can start off withquestions.
I just imagine that Moseswalked away from that burning
bush and said what the hell.
What did I just see?
You know this is God.
Did God show up to me?
I'm a little nobody, In fact, Imissed the mark in so many
cases.
Right, I mean, I was put up foradoption, floated down a river,
(14:25):
raised by people not my parents, raised in a foreign culture.
I mean he could go on and yethere is this God showing up and
asking me, inviting me right tobe a representative ambassador.
So I mean I think we can startwith maybe who is this God?
Kind of an audit.
You know, who is this God thathas given me the gray matter
(14:49):
that I need to make it in thisworld?
Who is this God who has kept mesafe over the night, right, and
give me a purpose and aprivilege to serve in God's name
?
You know, in the morning, andon and on and on.
You know I say these kinds ofthings, but what I really just
want to prompt is people'scuriosity.
I mean, that's another thingI've learned over years in
(15:10):
ministry is to sort of botherpeople with the things, like I'm
saying on this podcast, so thatthey can take it and, in their
own quiet time, begin to makeuse of it like some sort of
spiritual buffet, take thethings that seem to make sense
to them or seem to confound them, and chew on it and work on it.
And you know, I think that'swhat God does with our curiosity
(15:31):
.
You know, remember, thiscuriosity is about us drawing
near to God and God being sogood that God can meet us at any
of our questions.
This is why I like the Psalms.
I've said it again and againthe Psalms have the curiosity
there.
Who is this God who hangs thesun, moon and stars in the
universe like Christmas lights?
(15:52):
Who is this God and why didthis God even bother with me?
These are questions, I pray,that really move us from wonder
to worship.
And so if I work down that line, then at some point I have to
say wow, which is the first wordof worship, wow, right, you
know, this is extraordinary.
(16:12):
And whether I have all theanswers about who God is and who
God has been and what's thisand what's that, I can say for
myself that there is a majestyto this God.
There is a majesty that peoplefrom all over the world have
found in this God, and I cancelebrate that.
(16:35):
That's what worship is at itspurest form.
I celebrate the majesty of God,I want nothing from it right
now.
I mean, we can ask for stufflater, but right now I just want
to celebrate the majesty of God.
Melissa (16:47):
So, bishop, I guess this is where the rubber meets
the road.
For me, the hard part aboutremaining curious is not so much
about God as the concept of God, because I always say like,
yeah, god and I are good.
What I sometimes forget is thatGod is in each and every one of
us, including the people who,just I, cannot understand at all
(17:09):
.
And so how do we remain curiousabout the other?
Bishop Wright (17:17):
Yeah, I mean, I think it's very natural to end
up either really defensive inthe presence of other, and
certainly in the presence ofdisagreement.
It's what makes us human.
Um, I think it's also um veryhuman to become indifferent or
antagonistic uh you know todifference or in the face of
(17:39):
difference.
I think, here again, curiosityhelps us.
If we manage ourself and wantto move into a more mature
approach to all this, we can becurious.
Um, you know, I I've heardpeople talk in terms of when
we're sitting across from peoplewho see the world radically
different.
Maybe we shouldn't start withthis question.
(17:59):
How could you?
Maybe we should start with thisquestion.
Tell me about what you'reafraid of.
Tell me about what keeps you upat night.
Tell me about what you worryabout when you think about your
grandchildren.
I think that kind of curiosityhelps us to build some
(18:20):
solidarity with people that wemight not, that we might sort of
be amazed that we can findsolidarity with.
I mean, at the end of the day,human beings are pretty similar.
I mean, we express ourselvessometimes very differently, but
we're mostly afraid of things.
We're mostly moved to tears,you know, by love and by
(18:42):
compassion.
Sometimes we can be selfish.
Sometimes we can be magnanimous.
I mean, we sort of possess lotsof similarities wherever you
find us on the planet, right?
And so I think that to becurious about God is to want to
try to do and see the world asGod does and sees, and that has
(19:08):
to do with throwing dissimilarthings together and trying to
make community out of it, andthis is the genius of God.
So curiosity, wonder, moves usto worship and worship moves us
to praxis, to application, right.
And so if I worship God and Isay your majesty is mind-blowing
God, then what that should dois de-center me just enough to
(19:31):
where I can want to see theworld from God's perspective,
right?
I mean, it's no small thingthat we say as Christians that
Jesus came among us as one of us, right, and lived among us, and
he came to nobodies fromnowhere, so to speak.
And so it's interesting to thensee if we can walk alongside
the way that he tried to makecommunity with lots of different
(19:52):
people.
Now I'm working on an address tothe House of Bishops, coming up
, and it's not lost on me thatJesus spent time in the head of
the Pharisees' home at a dinnerparty, and so you know, sort of
an uninformed approach to Jesusis to think that he was always
adversarial.
Sort of an uninformed approachto Jesus is to think that he was
(20:14):
always adversarial to thePharisees and the Sadducees and
those folks who were thereligious formal authorities.
But a closer read, right?
A deeper, slower read, tells ushe was trying to make community
with all kinds of people, andit may be that he wasn't
adversarial at all.
It may be that he loved them somuch that he kept trying to
correct, right, because he couldhave just become exasperated
(20:39):
and walked away, right.
But it seems like the purposesof God are trying to hold
together for us and to us, whatwe see is radically dissimilar,
and so that's why we need to becurious about who God is.
I mean, think about what Godtells Moses.
You, you, little nobody.
You're getting ready to becurious about who God is.
I mean, think about what Godtells Moses.
You, you, little nobody.
You're getting ready to be thetip of the spear here to defeat
(20:59):
the world's most formidableempire.
You're getting ready to do that, and you know I'm not sending
you with chariots and horses,right.
There's no technology comingfrom another nation to assist
you.
You're going to walk in therewith a staff, right as an outlaw
, and you're going to tell thisculture that you know because
you were raised up in it, rightin Egypt's finest schools.
(21:22):
You were raised.
You're going to walk into thatmilieu and you're going to say,
all right, guys, you know theeconomy of extraction and abuse
and oppression is over.
Right, we're going a differentdirection.
Thus saith the Lord.
Melissa (21:38):
Oh, praise be to God for that.
Bishop Wright (21:40):
You got to just see the cure, you just got to be
curious about wow, god justsets up scenarios that seem so
impossible that only God couldpull it off, and that has to
make us curious.
And, as I like to say, I'lljust bet when his people
eventually walk out of Egyptafter 400 years of bitter
(22:03):
bondage and chattel slavery,I'll just bet Moses was glad he
was curious that day about thatbush on fire.
Melissa (22:12):
Indeed indeed, bishop.
Thank you and listeners, thankyou for tuning in to For People.
You can follow us on Instagramand Facebook at Bishop Rob
Wright, or by visiting www.
forpeople.
digital.
Please subscribe, leave areview and we'll be back with
you next week.
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