June 20, 2025 • 28 mins
What happens when we strip away centuries of religious interpretation and confront the actual teachings of Jesus of Nazareth? This Jesus isn't the gentle, apolitical figure often presented in modern Christianity, but rather "a holistically spiritual freedom fighter" deeply concerned with poverty, exploitation, and injustice.
In this episode, Bishop Wright has a conversation with Dr. Obery M. Hendricks, Jr., research scholar at Columbia University and former professor at Princeton Theological Seminary. Their conversation reminds us that Jesus as a radical social reformer whose message has been systematically diluted. Dr. Hendricks draws on St. Paul's emphasis on individual spiritual experiences to convey his message. "Paul transformed Jesus' concern for collective social, economic and political deliverance into an obsession with personal piety," Hendricks explains, suggesting that many Christians today understand Jesus primarily through St. Paul's interpretation, which fundamentally altered the trajectory of Jesus' radical message. Listen in for the full conversation.
A lifelong social activist, Obery Hendricks is one of the foremost commentators on the intersection of religion and political economy in America. He is the most widely read and perhaps the most influential African American biblical scholar writing today. Cornel West calls him “one of the last few grand prophetic intellectuals.”
A widely sought lecturer and media spokesperson, Dr. Hendricks’ appearances include CNN, MSNBC, CBS, Fox News, Fox Business News, the Discovery Channel, PBS, BBC, NHK Japan Television and the Bloomberg Network. He has provided running event commentary for National Public Radio, MSNBC, and the al-Jazeera and Aspire international television networks.
Learn more about Dr. Obery Hendricks and subscribe to his substack.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Obery Hendricks (00:00):
What does Jesus say?
What is the core of what he'stalking about?
And if we look at all of hissayings and parables and stuff
through, that lens like ourunderstanding of the Lord's
prayers is not just somethingyou know for children to say
before they go to bed.
The Lord's prayer is a radicalcall to change the world.
(00:20):
What should we do?
What should we do, lord?
How should we use our spiritualstrength?
That is, I think, what we haveto call people to again.
Bishop Wright (00:39):
Hi everyone.
This is Bishop Rob Wright andthis is For People.
Today we've got a special guest, Obery M Hendricks Jr.
Dr Hendricks, welcome.
Thank you, brother, good to bewith you.
Good to be with you.
He's a research scholar now atColumbia University in New York
(01:02):
City, formerly a professor atDrew University Princeton
Theological Seminary.
He served as the president ofPayne Theological Seminary and
he is an ordained elder in theAfrican-American Methodist
Episcopal Church.
Formerly he was a Wall Streetinvestment executive and he
received his PhD from Princeton.
He's a spokesperson, has been aspokesperson and featured on
(01:25):
C-SPAN, pbs, npr, the BloombergNetwork, on and on and on again,
and he currently lives in NewYork City with his wife, farrah.
Dr.
Hendricks, I've been a fan ofyour work, I like the way your
mind works and wanted to get youon because, as I pay attention
(01:46):
to the world, I hear we'retalking a lot about what it
means to be Christian, and I'venoticed that a lot of these ways
that being Christian is beingdescribed seem to have less and
less to do with Jesus ofNazareth in Matthew, Mark, Luke
and John, and it seems like yourwork has been preoccupied with
(02:08):
talking a little bit about thisJesus.
And so let's start there.
So who is Jesus of Nazareth toyou?
Dr. Obery Hendricks (02:18):
Well, thank you, brother.
Who is Jesus of Nazareth to me?
Well, Jesus was, as you know, Igrew up in the Black
Nationalist Movement and saw alot of figures of great courage,
self-sacrificial freedomfighters, and I view Jesus that
way.
This was a man who waspreoccupied with changing the
(02:42):
world around him.
With changing the world aroundhim he was concerned about we've
talked about, for instance,poor people in poverty.
More than anything else In hisLord's Prayer, he's concerned
about the terrible debt systemthat was oppressing the people.
So, in my mind, Jesus was asocial and political radical.
(03:03):
Political in the sense that hewas concerned about distribution
of goods and services.
He was a radical, but he wasalso a spiritual radical as well
, you know.
Yeah, so the core of the gospelis, I think he speaks, his
holistic spirituality love yourLord, God, with all your heart,
(03:26):
soul, mind and strength, andlove your neighbor as yourself
and where those meet.
That's holistic spirituality.
So I guess, to summarize, I seehim as a holistically spiritual
freedom fighter who's moved byhis relationship with God to
attempt to love his neighbors bychanging the world and making
(03:48):
it more just and loving for usto live in.
Bishop Wright (03:52):
You know you used the word radical a couple of
times and I think that wordneeds a little bit of
explanation.
You know William Barber, BishopBarber, up in North Carolina,
who's been really active in thePoor People's Campaign, talks
about radical, I think, in thebest way, most concise way,
(04:14):
radical meaning going to theroot of things, right?
So what would you say?
Would you affirm thatdefinition or would you add to
that?
Dr. Obery Hendricks (04:25):
I affirm that.
You know, going to the root, he, I mean he went to the root of
the ethical foundation of thebiblical tradition, which many,
well few, people seem to doanymore.
But he was radical in thatsense he was not.
He was a love revolutionary.
(04:47):
I don't know that I would callhim a political revolutionary,
but he was more than a reformer.
Yeah, he was a radical becausehe wanted to get to the root of
things and get rid of the wholesuperstructure.
So, yeah, he was radical, veryradical, and you know, he had to
be killed.
I mean, radicals have to besilenced, particularly in that
(05:13):
kind of imperial situation.
So, yeah, that explains so muchabout him, his radicality.
Bishop Wright (05:19):
You said something really important.
I mean, we know Jesus as astoryteller, a wandering
storyteller, an itinerantpreacher.
You know Jesus as a storyteller,a wandering storyteller, an
itinerant preacher, you knowwandering healer, all those
sorts of things, but he justkept talking and the way that he
talked kept giving you know anincreasingly expansive notion of
God's grace, of God's justice,of God's love and mercy.
(05:41):
You know, and so you know what Ihear when we talk about this
Jesus of Nazareth these days,when you start to sort of talk,
the way that you're sort ofpointing towards people say,
you're making Jesus politicalRight, and so you know why I
wanted to have you on thepodcast is to begin to help us
think through that, especiallyin these days when there's so
(06:04):
much political division red,blue, Democrat, Republican, you
know anti-president, you knowpro-president, all those sorts
of things.
It seems the message is thatChristians, that is, followers
of Jesus of Nazareth, aresupposed to be quietly in
support of the status quo, andthat seems to be out of step
(06:31):
with the Jesus of Nazareth.
You know, one of the things Ilike to say is that Jesus was
political, is political, but nota political partisan in the way
that we think of politicalpartisanship.
What would you say?
Dr. Obery Hendricks (06:47):
Well, he is political.
Well, if politics is about whogets what, if it's about
distribution and redistribution,he was patently political
because he talked about povertyand poor people more than
anything else.
Look at the Lord's Prayer.
I mean, look at it as concernedthere.
Distribution of power,redistribution of power, for
(07:09):
instance, your kingdom come,your will, be done when Caesar's
kingdom and Caesar's will areruling the day.
Release our debts.
Translated correctly, it shouldsay release our financial debts
.
He's concerned about whatpeople are going through every
day on the ground.
(07:31):
So we're talking aboutdistribution, redistribution.
You can't be any more politicalthan that.
And when you look at Luke 4:18,his important political
manifesto, Spirit of the Lord'supon me, because he's anointed
me to bring good news to thepoor.
What's good news to the poor?
It's about structural change.
(07:53):
I mean, if you're bringing goodnews to the poor, it means that
you want to alleviate theconditions that make poor people
period, Not like some kind ofprosperity anti-gospel.
Like you know, I don't careabout changing the pie, just let
me get a bigger piece of it.
So he's political in that sense.
I would say for sure, yeah,yeah.
Bishop Wright (08:14):
Well, you know, and so that's a really helpful
way to think about the Lord'sPrayer, because, you know,
sometimes we, you know, sort ofthe problem about handling the
problem over time, with handlingthings wholly like scripture,
like the Lord's Prayer, etcetera, is we unwittingly round
the edges off to suit the lifethat we want and we end up
(08:39):
reducing Jesus, in this case, toreally kind of a Sunday only,
or mostly Sunday, spirituallucky rabbit's foot, rather than
saying to be in relationshipwith this 2,000-year-old Jew who
, incidentally, at hisinauguration, so to speak,
(08:59):
didn't add new words, he justsimply breathed new life into
Isaiah's words.
So he went deeper in histradition, and so I think that's
, that's that's really critical.
I know, as someone who preachesall the time, you know the
occupational hazard, uh, as, asyou know, we talk about, is, uh,
(09:20):
you know, you end up preachingonly your, your sort of pet
gospel project, rather than,rather than continually being
knocked off balance by Jesus'sstories and Jesus's invitation,
et cetera.
And so do you have any wisdomabout how we can stay, you know,
centered on this Jesus, becauseyou know the temptation truly
(09:44):
is for us to just reduce him toa milk cow rather than let him
be the raging bull that he is.
Dr. Obery Hendricks (09:51):
Yeah, well, I think that the fourth chapter
of Luke in its entirety isreally instructional, because,
as the chapter begins, the firstverse Jesus has been baptized,
just baptized, just baptizing,rather than immediately running
for bishop or putting himselfsome kind of a sort of something
(10:14):
like that.
(10:35):
He goes in the desert and heengages real spiritual
ministrations and working toempower ourselves spiritually in
order to be able to rise upfinally, after going through all
that, all the self-abnegationand meditation and fasting and
all that, and then to be able tostand up and say the Spirit of
the Lord is upon me now becauseI have prepared myself.
That's a very important, veryimportant model to be to be
(10:56):
followed.
So I feel like I lost thethread of your question in there
somewhere.
But you know, but?
But essentially it's.
I think the key to it all isJesus.
The greatest social commandmentis love your neighbor as
yourself.
And I think that if we look atthat in this profound social,
(11:17):
economic and politicaldimensions, in which, if you
love your neighbor as yourself,it's not about sentiments, but
wanting the same for yourneighbors as you want for
yourself, all the same goods,the same justice, the same for
your neighbors as you want foryourself, right, all the same
goods, the same justice, thesame freedom.
But it also implies struggle,because, since we will struggle
for ourselves and our own lovedones to have the best, love your
(11:42):
neighbor as yourself is acommand to struggle for your
neighbor to have the best aswell.
In other words, jesus is sayingwe must struggle for the common
good.
And that, I think, is thebaseline standard by which all
these other stories and allthese other interpretations,
it's the lens to which it mustbe viewed.
Bishop Wright (12:38):
Yeah, and you know, again, as I just sort of
look at your work, and one bookin particular, you know that I
have used recently I did anaddress to the House of Bishops
talking about Christiannationalism, and you know, your
work was really more thanhelpful in that just sort of
sitting down and thinking a lotabout that.
It was the politics of Jesus,rediscovering the true
revolutionary nature of Jesus,jesus's teaching, and how they
have been corrupted.
That was a big piece of workthat I appreciated so much and
(12:58):
so.
So, yeah, so we could go, wecould talk all day, really,
about the ways in which we haveducked Jesus's stories.
All of us have the intensity ofall that and the cost of all
that.
So, given the world as it isright now, I mean, how do we get
back on track?
How do we rediscover?
(13:21):
You know, this Jesus, thisJesus who is again, you said
something that needs to beunderscored who is again, you
said something that needs to beunderscored this Jesus who had a
lot to say about the poor, whohimself was what we would call
materially poor, who lived amongpoor people and saw abuses.
How do we?
(13:44):
A moratorium on reading theApostle Paul and read the
Gospels.
Interesting, say more about that.
Dr. Obery Hendricks (13:53):
Well, many, you know, many, if not most,
christians understand Jesusthrough Paul, and Paul said well
, fundamentally, paul wasdifferent than Jesus, right, and
Paul never met him in the fleshor anything like that.
He was really, really proud ofthat.
You know, jesus talked aboutthe sole sovereignty of God, or
(14:16):
what we call the kingdom of God,I mean, which is a radical
reordering of the world.
Paul doesn't talk about that.
I mean, he mentions a kingdomonce or twice, but it has
radically different meaning.
Paul was a mystic who wanted tochange people from the inside
(14:36):
out, to develop, to experiencethe same level of God
consciousness that he talkedabout when he said he went to
the third heaven.
You know, jesus wanted totransform us spiritually as well
, but he wanted to change theworld.
Paul doesn't talk aboutchanging the world at all.
Paul was ready for the world toend.
(14:59):
So that's why he told people,you know, don't worry about
being a slave, because theworld's going to end soon.
And so if we follow Paul, allwe do is accept the status quo
and we don't really try tochange the world.
Jesus was about changing theworld.
He was prophetic.
He challenged the powers thatbe among his own people and the
(15:24):
Roman Empire.
But Paul gives a whole otherperspective.
Also, paul's notion ofsalvation and deliverance is
Greco-Roman.
Jews talked about deliverance.
They were talking about in thisworld, the paradigm, the
(15:48):
fundamental liberating event inthe faith during the Exodus.
They talk about deliverance andsalvation when those folk
didn't even believe in anafterlife, right?
So Paul is not in touch withany of that.
And if you do everything thatPaul said, it will change people
.
It could change smallcommunities, but it doesn't
(16:11):
really challenge, well, theprincipalities and powers of the
world.
Of course we know Paul didn'twrite that, but Paul really
challenged that because heexpected the world to end in any
minute.
Bishop Wright (16:28):
You know you are bringing up a key point.
I hope folks are really gettingthis.
I mean and you wrote in yourbook the Politics of Jesus Paul
transformed Jesus's concern forcollective social, economic and
political deliverance for hisentire people into an obsession
with personal piety ofindividual.
I mean so well done on thatsentence, because I think it
(16:51):
captures distills exactly whatyou're talking about.
I was doing some graduate workonce and I've always thought a
lot about Paul and, like youhave said, I've gotten to know a
lot about Paul.
And, like you have said, youknow, I've gotten to know a lot
about Jesus through Paul.
And so when I took this classfrom an incredible Paul Apostle,
paul scholar, he started offwith which Paul are we talking
(17:14):
about?
Because Paul has a development.
There is the Paul who thinksJesus is coming right back and
so he has his concerns.
And then there's the Paul whofinally realizes Jesus is not
coming right back and so he'strying to make the concessions
he needs to make.
And then you see the big shiftto personal piety.
(17:37):
And then we wonder thatmovement, along with
Christianity, becoming sort ofthe spirituality of the empire,
that one-two punch.
One wonders if that isn't howwe got to where we get to, where
people get the message that ifI'll just be a good little boy
(17:58):
or a good little girl and maybeshow up on church occasionally,
then I'll get to heaven and allshall be well.
Dr. Obery Hendricks (18:05):
Yeah, yeah, you know, it's so interesting
that the terms in the HebrewBible and in the Greek New
Testament for righteousnessunderstood as personal piety, it
really, it really has anotherdimension.
You know, justice, like dikiasuna in Greek means justice as
(18:30):
well, and also in Hebrew, sotaka.
Righteousness can't be aboutpersonal piety, because the
Hebrew Bible was about thecollective.
It was never about individuals,right, not even a word in
Hebrew for biblical Hebrew, forindividuals.
So so Paul gets all of that,paul.
Paul got all of that that wrongthat he changed the whole
(18:51):
trajectory of focusing on thecollective, on, on, on
spirituality of community tothis personal, personal piety
stuff and also, of course, tothis personal piety stuff.
And also, of course, you know,we have to acknowledge that
scholars have shown, you know,pretty conclusively, as you know
(19:13):
, right, paul didn't write allthose letters, particularly the
ones that really go far afieldfrom Jesus, like the pastoral
epistles, you know, 1st, 2nd,timothy and Titus, for instance.
But also look at Paul in Romanswhen he talks about going along
with the status quo, right, canyou imagine Jesus on the cross
(19:37):
saying, yeah, well, you know,look at these, the governing
authorities, as coming from God.
And you know, and all that, no,no.
So Paul, in a way Paul has andI don't mean this
disrespectfully, but in a wayPaul betrayed the radicality of
Jesus and the Jesus allmovements we know become
(20:01):
bureaucratized into institutions.
But Paul changed, I mean, hemade the Jesus movement really
well unrecognizable in the finalanalysis.
Right, you follow everythingPaul says and you're not going
(20:23):
to change the world like Jesuswanted the world to be changed.
Bishop Wright (20:25):
Yeah, so you know , sort of the last movement here
is because that's reallyhelpful, right?
So I think the counsel was tolet's take a break reading the
epistles, let's get reallyconversant, spend some time with
Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.
As one person told me, if youreally want to read the Bible,
(20:48):
read it slow.
So you really want to get toknow Jesus, read the Gospels
slow, think on those things.
I think that's one good pieceof wise counsel for us.
I think it is to let Jesus'radicality, that is going back
to the roots of his tradition,really speak to you and, in our
(21:12):
circumstances, maybe put downour real penchant for self-piety
and personal piety me and Jesus, that type of talk and think
about Jesus and the community.
I think I heard you say that.
So the next movement would beso a lot of times people still
(21:33):
get their vision of theircharacter cues about Jesus in
the average congregation inchurch.
So what word do you have forthose of us who teach and preach
and those of us who sit in pewsand listen?
(21:55):
How can we move back to thisJesus of Nazareth?
And I'll just say, not to makethe question too long, I'll just
say I feel like this is job oneright now.
You know, Walter Brueggemannhad just died.
God bless his soul.
He talked about the urgentprophetic tasks of the church,
(22:19):
and one of them was the reality,get reality in the room.
Well, the reality is thatpeople are constructing, even as
we speak, a Christianity thathas abandoned Jesus of Nazareth,
and so this is what's behind myquestion.
So how do we get Jesus back?
You know, in the localcongregation and in the local
(22:40):
consciousness.
Dr. Obery Hendricks (22:40):
You know in the local congregation and in
the local consciousness.
Yeah, yeah, well, a couple ofthings.
The first I have to give shortshrift to because it's sort of a
longer explanation, but we haveto look at the foundational,
the ethical foundation of thefaith, and it is I talk about it
(23:05):
in my most recent book,Christians Against Christianity.
But real briefly, I explainthat the ethical foundation is
the marriage of the two mostoften occurring concepts in the
Bible, and that is justice,egalitarian justice, and social
righteousness.
And together I explain thatwhat that means is that the
foundation of the faith issocial justice.
And no and if you read what no,no, no Hebrew scholar has ever
(23:31):
contested that when I presentedit.
And so first, I have to keep inmind that the faith that Jesus
inherited and embraced was thefoundation of social justice,
justice in community,egalitarian justice, love your
(23:52):
neighbor as yourself.
And, on the other hand, I thinkwe have to get back to basics.
Folks need to focus.
We have to get back to basics.
Folks need to focus that Jesussays the greatest commandments
are to love your Lord, your God,with all your heart, soul, mind
and strength, and love yourneighbor as yourself.
All this other stuff, man,that's going on has nothing to
do with that.
(24:12):
All this I mean I'm not againstat all the African-American
cultural celebrations inreligious terms and all that.
But, brother, all this thesedays, all this jumping around
man and calling stuff holy dancewhen you're really just having
a bunch of fun, all of thatstuff that has really nothing to
do with the unction of JesusChrist to build, to love our
(24:38):
neighbors as ourselves, tostruggle for a just economic
system, a just political system,you know, a just social system.
So I guess the way, in anutshell I'd answer we have to
go back to the basics.
I think that's so important.
If you ask most people what isthe core of the gospel, they'll
(25:00):
tell you all kinds of stuff.
Few people will say the socialcore is love your neighbor as
yourself.
I guess I'd answer this way wegot to learn what we have to
learn, what's in the Bible.
We have to learn to try toreally understand what's there,
and not from a theologicallyinterested position, you know,
(25:22):
but to really try to step backand read it for us.
So Christians are essentiallybiblically illiterate.
I mean, everyone knows a littlebit.
We don't have a tradition studylike the Muslims and the Jews
who are very serious.
They know what they believe.
What do we know?
What the preacher tells us?
And a lot of these preachersaren't worth their weight.
Don't get started, brother.
(25:42):
But I think that's it.
Go back to basics.
What does Jesus say?
What is the core of what he'stalking about?
And if we look at all of hissayings and parables and stuff
through, that lens differentview, like our understanding of
the Lord's prayers is not justsomething you know for children
to say before they go to bed,but the Lord's prayer is a
(26:05):
radical call to change the world.
What should we do?
What should we do, lord?
How should we use our spiritualstrength?
Well, ask the Lord to bring hiskingdom of justice, you know.
Ask, ask the Lord to, uh, uh,to God is to allow us to get rid
of the economic exploitationand the hunger and all of that.
(26:28):
That is, I think, what we haveto, uh, we have to call people
to again.
Bishop Wright (26:34):
You know I'm I'm so grateful you said that, um,
because I I think you know oneof the great opportunities you
know every season, because Ithink you know one of the great
opportunities, you know everyseason right has limitations and
opportunities Every season.
If it's true personally, it'scertainly true nationally.
And what my great hope is isthat in this present season,
(26:54):
where so many are feelinganxious, even fearful,
despondent, et cetera, I'mhoping that you know the
hardships of this season really,you know, in in God's wonderful
wacky economy, are going to be,is going to be the season that
makes the next, the nextgeneration of witnesses, because
(27:16):
I think that I think thatpeople are, you know, that's
sort of.
One of the upsides is that whenpeople sort of realize that
there is no real reliance ortrustworthiness in man-made
systems, ultimately for somepeople that creates an appetite
for more, for more learning, etcetera.
(27:38):
And I'm hoping that takes us,you know, back to, as you say,
to the basics.
Dr. Obery Hendricks (27:44):
I'm hoping we don't.
We, we don't have a vision.
Right wing has a vision 2025.
We need to be pushed.
Like you're saying, we have anew consciousness.
Maybe that'll push us to try todevelop a holistic vision of
the world we want.
Bishop Wright (28:30):
So grateful for your life of study, so grateful
for your bright mind andwillingness to be with us.
Dr Hendricks, thank you verymuch.
What does Jesus say?
What is the core of what he'stalking about?
And if we look at all of hissayings and parables and stuff
through, that lens like ourunderstanding of the Lord's
prayers is not just somethingyou know for children to say
before they go to bed.
The Lord's prayer is a radicalcall to change the world.
(00:20):
What should we do?
What should we do, lord?
How should we use our spiritualstrength?
That is, I think, what we haveto call people to again.
Bishop Wright (00:39):
Hi everyone.
This is Bishop Rob Wright andthis is For People.
Today we've got a special guest, Obery M Hendricks Jr.
Dr Hendricks, welcome.
Thank you, brother, good to bewith you.
Good to be with you.
He's a research scholar now atColumbia University in New York
(01:02):
City, formerly a professor atDrew University Princeton
Theological Seminary.
He served as the president ofPayne Theological Seminary and
he is an ordained elder in theAfrican-American Methodist
Episcopal Church.
Formerly he was a Wall Streetinvestment executive and he
received his PhD from Princeton.
He's a spokesperson, has been aspokesperson and featured on
(01:25):
C-SPAN, pbs, npr, the BloombergNetwork, on and on and on again,
and he currently lives in NewYork City with his wife, farrah.
Dr.
Hendricks, I've been a fan ofyour work, I like the way your
mind works and wanted to get youon because, as I pay attention
(01:46):
to the world, I hear we'retalking a lot about what it
means to be Christian, and I'venoticed that a lot of these ways
that being Christian is beingdescribed seem to have less and
less to do with Jesus ofNazareth in Matthew, Mark, Luke
and John, and it seems like yourwork has been preoccupied with
(02:08):
talking a little bit about thisJesus.
And so let's start there.
So who is Jesus of Nazareth toyou?
Dr. Obery Hendricks (02:18):
Well, thank you, brother.
Who is Jesus of Nazareth to me?
Well, Jesus was, as you know, Igrew up in the Black
Nationalist Movement and saw alot of figures of great courage,
self-sacrificial freedomfighters, and I view Jesus that
way.
This was a man who waspreoccupied with changing the
(02:42):
world around him.
With changing the world aroundhim he was concerned about we've
talked about, for instance,poor people in poverty.
More than anything else In hisLord's Prayer, he's concerned
about the terrible debt systemthat was oppressing the people.
So, in my mind, Jesus was asocial and political radical.
(03:03):
Political in the sense that hewas concerned about distribution
of goods and services.
He was a radical, but he wasalso a spiritual radical as well
, you know.
Yeah, so the core of the gospelis, I think he speaks, his
holistic spirituality love yourLord, God, with all your heart,
(03:26):
soul, mind and strength, andlove your neighbor as yourself
and where those meet.
That's holistic spirituality.
So I guess, to summarize, I seehim as a holistically spiritual
freedom fighter who's moved byhis relationship with God to
attempt to love his neighbors bychanging the world and making
(03:48):
it more just and loving for usto live in.
Bishop Wright (03:52):
You know you used the word radical a couple of
times and I think that wordneeds a little bit of
explanation.
You know William Barber, BishopBarber, up in North Carolina,
who's been really active in thePoor People's Campaign, talks
about radical, I think, in thebest way, most concise way,
(04:14):
radical meaning going to theroot of things, right?
So what would you say?
Would you affirm thatdefinition or would you add to
that?
Dr. Obery Hendricks (04:25):
I affirm that.
You know, going to the root, he, I mean he went to the root of
the ethical foundation of thebiblical tradition, which many,
well few, people seem to doanymore.
But he was radical in thatsense he was not.
He was a love revolutionary.
(04:47):
I don't know that I would callhim a political revolutionary,
but he was more than a reformer.
Yeah, he was a radical becausehe wanted to get to the root of
things and get rid of the wholesuperstructure.
So, yeah, he was radical, veryradical, and you know, he had to
be killed.
I mean, radicals have to besilenced, particularly in that
(05:13):
kind of imperial situation.
So, yeah, that explains so muchabout him, his radicality.
Bishop Wright (05:19):
You said something really important.
I mean, we know Jesus as astoryteller, a wandering
storyteller, an itinerantpreacher.
You know Jesus as a storyteller,a wandering storyteller, an
itinerant preacher, you knowwandering healer, all those
sorts of things, but he justkept talking and the way that he
talked kept giving you know anincreasingly expansive notion of
God's grace, of God's justice,of God's love and mercy.
(05:41):
You know, and so you know what Ihear when we talk about this
Jesus of Nazareth these days,when you start to sort of talk,
the way that you're sort ofpointing towards people say,
you're making Jesus politicalRight, and so you know why I
wanted to have you on thepodcast is to begin to help us
think through that, especiallyin these days when there's so
(06:04):
much political division red,blue, Democrat, Republican, you
know anti-president, you knowpro-president, all those sorts
of things.
It seems the message is thatChristians, that is, followers
of Jesus of Nazareth, aresupposed to be quietly in
support of the status quo, andthat seems to be out of step
(06:31):
with the Jesus of Nazareth.
You know, one of the things Ilike to say is that Jesus was
political, is political, but nota political partisan in the way
that we think of politicalpartisanship.
What would you say?
Dr. Obery Hendricks (06:47):
Well, he is political.
Well, if politics is about whogets what, if it's about
distribution and redistribution,he was patently political
because he talked about povertyand poor people more than
anything else.
Look at the Lord's Prayer.
I mean, look at it as concernedthere.
Distribution of power,redistribution of power, for
(07:09):
instance, your kingdom come,your will, be done when Caesar's
kingdom and Caesar's will areruling the day.
Release our debts.
Translated correctly, it shouldsay release our financial debts
.
He's concerned about whatpeople are going through every
day on the ground.
(07:31):
So we're talking aboutdistribution, redistribution.
You can't be any more politicalthan that.
And when you look at Luke 4:18,his important political
manifesto, Spirit of the Lord'supon me, because he's anointed
me to bring good news to thepoor.
What's good news to the poor?
It's about structural change.
(07:53):
I mean, if you're bringing goodnews to the poor, it means that
you want to alleviate theconditions that make poor people
period, Not like some kind ofprosperity anti-gospel.
Like you know, I don't careabout changing the pie, just let
me get a bigger piece of it.
So he's political in that sense.
I would say for sure, yeah,yeah.
Bishop Wright (08:14):
Well, you know, and so that's a really helpful
way to think about the Lord'sPrayer, because, you know,
sometimes we, you know, sort ofthe problem about handling the
problem over time, with handlingthings wholly like scripture,
like the Lord's Prayer, etcetera, is we unwittingly round
the edges off to suit the lifethat we want and we end up
(08:39):
reducing Jesus, in this case, toreally kind of a Sunday only,
or mostly Sunday, spirituallucky rabbit's foot, rather than
saying to be in relationshipwith this 2,000-year-old Jew who
, incidentally, at hisinauguration, so to speak,
(08:59):
didn't add new words, he justsimply breathed new life into
Isaiah's words.
So he went deeper in histradition, and so I think that's
, that's that's really critical.
I know, as someone who preachesall the time, you know the
occupational hazard, uh, as, asyou know, we talk about, is, uh,
(09:20):
you know, you end up preachingonly your, your sort of pet
gospel project, rather than,rather than continually being
knocked off balance by Jesus'sstories and Jesus's invitation,
et cetera.
And so do you have any wisdomabout how we can stay, you know,
centered on this Jesus, becauseyou know the temptation truly
(09:44):
is for us to just reduce him toa milk cow rather than let him
be the raging bull that he is.
Dr. Obery Hendricks (09:51):
Yeah, well, I think that the fourth chapter
of Luke in its entirety isreally instructional, because,
as the chapter begins, the firstverse Jesus has been baptized,
just baptized, just baptizing,rather than immediately running
for bishop or putting himselfsome kind of a sort of something
(10:14):
like that.
(10:35):
He goes in the desert and heengages real spiritual
ministrations and working toempower ourselves spiritually in
order to be able to rise upfinally, after going through all
that, all the self-abnegationand meditation and fasting and
all that, and then to be able tostand up and say the Spirit of
the Lord is upon me now becauseI have prepared myself.
That's a very important, veryimportant model to be to be
(10:56):
followed.
So I feel like I lost thethread of your question in there
somewhere.
But you know, but?
But essentially it's.
I think the key to it all isJesus.
The greatest social commandmentis love your neighbor as
yourself.
And I think that if we look atthat in this profound social,
(11:17):
economic and politicaldimensions, in which, if you
love your neighbor as yourself,it's not about sentiments, but
wanting the same for yourneighbors as you want for
yourself, all the same goods,the same justice, the same for
your neighbors as you want foryourself, right, all the same
goods, the same justice, thesame freedom.
But it also implies struggle,because, since we will struggle
for ourselves and our own lovedones to have the best, love your
(11:42):
neighbor as yourself is acommand to struggle for your
neighbor to have the best aswell.
In other words, jesus is sayingwe must struggle for the common
good.
And that, I think, is thebaseline standard by which all
these other stories and allthese other interpretations,
it's the lens to which it mustbe viewed.
Bishop Wright (12:38):
Yeah, and you know, again, as I just sort of
look at your work, and one bookin particular, you know that I
have used recently I did anaddress to the House of Bishops
talking about Christiannationalism, and you know, your
work was really more thanhelpful in that just sort of
sitting down and thinking a lotabout that.
It was the politics of Jesus,rediscovering the true
revolutionary nature of Jesus,jesus's teaching, and how they
have been corrupted.
That was a big piece of workthat I appreciated so much and
(12:58):
so.
So, yeah, so we could go, wecould talk all day, really,
about the ways in which we haveducked Jesus's stories.
All of us have the intensity ofall that and the cost of all
that.
So, given the world as it isright now, I mean, how do we get
back on track?
How do we rediscover?
(13:21):
You know, this Jesus, thisJesus who is again, you said
something that needs to beunderscored who is again, you
said something that needs to beunderscored this Jesus who had a
lot to say about the poor, whohimself was what we would call
materially poor, who lived amongpoor people and saw abuses.
How do we?
(13:44):
A moratorium on reading theApostle Paul and read the
Gospels.
Interesting, say more about that.
Dr. Obery Hendricks (13:53):
Well, many, you know, many, if not most,
christians understand Jesusthrough Paul, and Paul said well
, fundamentally, paul wasdifferent than Jesus, right, and
Paul never met him in the fleshor anything like that.
He was really, really proud ofthat.
You know, jesus talked aboutthe sole sovereignty of God, or
(14:16):
what we call the kingdom of God,I mean, which is a radical
reordering of the world.
Paul doesn't talk about that.
I mean, he mentions a kingdomonce or twice, but it has
radically different meaning.
Paul was a mystic who wanted tochange people from the inside
(14:36):
out, to develop, to experiencethe same level of God
consciousness that he talkedabout when he said he went to
the third heaven.
You know, jesus wanted totransform us spiritually as well
, but he wanted to change theworld.
Paul doesn't talk aboutchanging the world at all.
Paul was ready for the world toend.
(14:59):
So that's why he told people,you know, don't worry about
being a slave, because theworld's going to end soon.
And so if we follow Paul, allwe do is accept the status quo
and we don't really try tochange the world.
Jesus was about changing theworld.
He was prophetic.
He challenged the powers thatbe among his own people and the
(15:24):
Roman Empire.
But Paul gives a whole otherperspective.
Also, paul's notion ofsalvation and deliverance is
Greco-Roman.
Jews talked about deliverance.
They were talking about in thisworld, the paradigm, the
(15:48):
fundamental liberating event inthe faith during the Exodus.
They talk about deliverance andsalvation when those folk
didn't even believe in anafterlife, right?
So Paul is not in touch withany of that.
And if you do everything thatPaul said, it will change people
.
It could change smallcommunities, but it doesn't
(16:11):
really challenge, well, theprincipalities and powers of the
world.
Of course we know Paul didn'twrite that, but Paul really
challenged that because heexpected the world to end in any
minute.
Bishop Wright (16:28):
You know you are bringing up a key point.
I hope folks are really gettingthis.
I mean and you wrote in yourbook the Politics of Jesus Paul
transformed Jesus's concern forcollective social, economic and
political deliverance for hisentire people into an obsession
with personal piety ofindividual.
I mean so well done on thatsentence, because I think it
(16:51):
captures distills exactly whatyou're talking about.
I was doing some graduate workonce and I've always thought a
lot about Paul and, like youhave said, I've gotten to know a
lot about Paul.
And, like you have said, youknow, I've gotten to know a lot
about Jesus through Paul.
And so when I took this classfrom an incredible Paul Apostle,
paul scholar, he started offwith which Paul are we talking
(17:14):
about?
Because Paul has a development.
There is the Paul who thinksJesus is coming right back and
so he has his concerns.
And then there's the Paul whofinally realizes Jesus is not
coming right back and so he'strying to make the concessions
he needs to make.
And then you see the big shiftto personal piety.
(17:37):
And then we wonder thatmovement, along with
Christianity, becoming sort ofthe spirituality of the empire,
that one-two punch.
One wonders if that isn't howwe got to where we get to, where
people get the message that ifI'll just be a good little boy
(17:58):
or a good little girl and maybeshow up on church occasionally,
then I'll get to heaven and allshall be well.
Dr. Obery Hendricks (18:05):
Yeah, yeah, you know, it's so interesting
that the terms in the HebrewBible and in the Greek New
Testament for righteousnessunderstood as personal piety, it
really, it really has anotherdimension.
You know, justice, like dikiasuna in Greek means justice as
(18:30):
well, and also in Hebrew, sotaka.
Righteousness can't be aboutpersonal piety, because the
Hebrew Bible was about thecollective.
It was never about individuals,right, not even a word in
Hebrew for biblical Hebrew, forindividuals.
So so Paul gets all of that,paul.
Paul got all of that that wrongthat he changed the whole
(18:51):
trajectory of focusing on thecollective, on, on, on
spirituality of community tothis personal, personal piety
stuff and also, of course, tothis personal piety stuff.
And also, of course, you know,we have to acknowledge that
scholars have shown, you know,pretty conclusively, as you know
(19:13):
, right, paul didn't write allthose letters, particularly the
ones that really go far afieldfrom Jesus, like the pastoral
epistles, you know, 1st, 2nd,timothy and Titus, for instance.
But also look at Paul in Romanswhen he talks about going along
with the status quo, right, canyou imagine Jesus on the cross
(19:37):
saying, yeah, well, you know,look at these, the governing
authorities, as coming from God.
And you know, and all that, no,no.
So Paul, in a way Paul has andI don't mean this
disrespectfully, but in a wayPaul betrayed the radicality of
Jesus and the Jesus allmovements we know become
(20:01):
bureaucratized into institutions.
But Paul changed, I mean, hemade the Jesus movement really
well unrecognizable in the finalanalysis.
Right, you follow everythingPaul says and you're not going
(20:23):
to change the world like Jesuswanted the world to be changed.
Bishop Wright (20:25):
Yeah, so you know , sort of the last movement here
is because that's reallyhelpful, right?
So I think the counsel was tolet's take a break reading the
epistles, let's get reallyconversant, spend some time with
Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.
As one person told me, if youreally want to read the Bible,
(20:48):
read it slow.
So you really want to get toknow Jesus, read the Gospels
slow, think on those things.
I think that's one good pieceof wise counsel for us.
I think it is to let Jesus'radicality, that is going back
to the roots of his tradition,really speak to you and, in our
(21:12):
circumstances, maybe put downour real penchant for self-piety
and personal piety me and Jesus, that type of talk and think
about Jesus and the community.
I think I heard you say that.
So the next movement would beso a lot of times people still
(21:33):
get their vision of theircharacter cues about Jesus in
the average congregation inchurch.
So what word do you have forthose of us who teach and preach
and those of us who sit in pewsand listen?
(21:55):
How can we move back to thisJesus of Nazareth?
And I'll just say, not to makethe question too long, I'll just
say I feel like this is job oneright now.
You know, Walter Brueggemannhad just died.
God bless his soul.
He talked about the urgentprophetic tasks of the church,
(22:19):
and one of them was the reality,get reality in the room.
Well, the reality is thatpeople are constructing, even as
we speak, a Christianity thathas abandoned Jesus of Nazareth,
and so this is what's behind myquestion.
So how do we get Jesus back?
You know, in the localcongregation and in the local
(22:40):
consciousness.
Dr. Obery Hendricks (22:40):
You know in the local congregation and in
the local consciousness.
Yeah, yeah, well, a couple ofthings.
The first I have to give shortshrift to because it's sort of a
longer explanation, but we haveto look at the foundational,
the ethical foundation of thefaith, and it is I talk about it
(23:05):
in my most recent book,Christians Against Christianity.
But real briefly, I explainthat the ethical foundation is
the marriage of the two mostoften occurring concepts in the
Bible, and that is justice,egalitarian justice, and social
righteousness.
And together I explain thatwhat that means is that the
foundation of the faith issocial justice.
And no and if you read what no,no, no Hebrew scholar has ever
(23:31):
contested that when I presentedit.
And so first, I have to keep inmind that the faith that Jesus
inherited and embraced was thefoundation of social justice,
justice in community,egalitarian justice, love your
(23:52):
neighbor as yourself.
And, on the other hand, I thinkwe have to get back to basics.
Folks need to focus.
We have to get back to basics.
Folks need to focus that Jesussays the greatest commandments
are to love your Lord, your God,with all your heart, soul, mind
and strength, and love yourneighbor as yourself.
All this other stuff, man,that's going on has nothing to
do with that.
(24:12):
All this I mean I'm not againstat all the African-American
cultural celebrations inreligious terms and all that.
But, brother, all this thesedays, all this jumping around
man and calling stuff holy dancewhen you're really just having
a bunch of fun, all of thatstuff that has really nothing to
do with the unction of JesusChrist to build, to love our
(24:38):
neighbors as ourselves, tostruggle for a just economic
system, a just political system,you know, a just social system.
So I guess the way, in anutshell I'd answer we have to
go back to the basics.
I think that's so important.
If you ask most people what isthe core of the gospel, they'll
(25:00):
tell you all kinds of stuff.
Few people will say the socialcore is love your neighbor as
yourself.
I guess I'd answer this way wegot to learn what we have to
learn, what's in the Bible.
We have to learn to try toreally understand what's there,
and not from a theologicallyinterested position, you know,
(25:22):
but to really try to step backand read it for us.
So Christians are essentiallybiblically illiterate.
I mean, everyone knows a littlebit.
We don't have a tradition studylike the Muslims and the Jews
who are very serious.
They know what they believe.
What do we know?
What the preacher tells us?
And a lot of these preachersaren't worth their weight.
Don't get started, brother.
(25:42):
But I think that's it.
Go back to basics.
What does Jesus say?
What is the core of what he'stalking about?
And if we look at all of hissayings and parables and stuff
through, that lens differentview, like our understanding of
the Lord's prayers is not justsomething you know for children
to say before they go to bed,but the Lord's prayer is a
(26:05):
radical call to change the world.
What should we do?
What should we do, lord?
How should we use our spiritualstrength?
Well, ask the Lord to bring hiskingdom of justice, you know.
Ask, ask the Lord to, uh, uh,to God is to allow us to get rid
of the economic exploitationand the hunger and all of that.
(26:28):
That is, I think, what we haveto, uh, we have to call people
to again.
Bishop Wright (26:34):
You know I'm I'm so grateful you said that, um,
because I I think you know oneof the great opportunities you
know every season, because Ithink you know one of the great
opportunities, you know everyseason right has limitations and
opportunities Every season.
If it's true personally, it'scertainly true nationally.
And what my great hope is isthat in this present season,
(26:54):
where so many are feelinganxious, even fearful,
despondent, et cetera, I'mhoping that you know the
hardships of this season really,you know, in in God's wonderful
wacky economy, are going to be,is going to be the season that
makes the next, the nextgeneration of witnesses, because
(27:16):
I think that I think thatpeople are, you know, that's
sort of.
One of the upsides is that whenpeople sort of realize that
there is no real reliance ortrustworthiness in man-made
systems, ultimately for somepeople that creates an appetite
for more, for more learning, etcetera.
(27:38):
And I'm hoping that takes us,you know, back to, as you say,
to the basics.
Dr. Obery Hendricks (27:44):
I'm hoping we don't.
We, we don't have a vision.
Right wing has a vision 2025.
We need to be pushed.
Like you're saying, we have anew consciousness.
Maybe that'll push us to try todevelop a holistic vision of
the world we want.
Bishop Wright (28:30):
So grateful for your life of study, so grateful
for your bright mind andwillingness to be with us.
Dr Hendricks, thank you verymuch.
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