January 31, 2025 • 27 mins
In our suffering, we often forget that even Jesus suffered. Many have turned away from God due to past wounds, yet some seek healing from the same experiences. By reflecting on Jesus' suffering, we can begin to understand this human condition can be used by God to change lives!
In this episode, Melissa and Bishop Wright have a conversation about suffering and how it is a result of human actions and choices. They discuss how community and personal narrative are tools that come out of suffering. Wherever you are on your journey, you are never alone. Listen in for the full conversation.
Read For Faith, the companion devotional.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Bishop Wright (00:00):
Hope takes courage, because what you're
risking is being disappointed byGod, and hope feels like a
bridge too far for most of us,especially when situations are
dire.
We wonder if we're just beingsilly or childish to even want
to have hope in difficultcircumstances.
I understand it, and yet thatis the journey, right?
(00:22):
You know, for us, in ourtradition, easter doesn't come
before Good Friday, right,easter comes after Good Friday.
Melissa (00:42):
Hi listeners, I'm Melissa Rau and this is a
conversation inspired by ForFaith, a weekly devotion sent
out every Friday.
You can find a link to thisweek's For Faith and a link to
subscribe in the episode'sdescription.
How's it going, bishop?
Bishop Wright (00:56):
Yes, yes For yes, here we are.
Melissa (00:59):
You named this week's devotion, tested based off of
Hebrews 2, verses 14 through 18.
Bishop Wright (01:07):
That's right.
Melissa (01:09):
And really I'm reading it.
It's about suffering.
It's about all the things thatJesus exemplified in the ways
that he suffered.
So I'm curious what's kind ofthe big broad stroke that?
Bishop Wright (01:25):
he suffered.
So I'm curious what's kind ofthe big broad stroke?
Well, we always try to use thispodcast as fodder for people's
reflection and thinking and Ihope that people experience this
(01:50):
podcast as an effort in care.
And so when I think about thisword tested and I think about
suffering as it appears in thesecond chapter of Hebrews, I'm
aware that a lot of people haveleft the church because they are
church hurt, and I'm aware alsothat there's a lot of people
who, because they have beenchurch hurt and been away from
the church for a long time, somepeople are coming back to
church and trying to findchurches where they can be
(02:13):
helped with some of these wordsand ways that have been foisted
on them as younger people,foisted on them as younger
people.
And so you know, part of what Ithink, I do or hope to do when
I'm writing and then when wetalk, melissa, is just try to
invite people into a gracefulspace.
You try to use this platformjust to invite people to think
(02:37):
and to affirm them and encouragethem.
And so you know, as I start offthis meditation, I say some
people believe that humansuffering is either God-ordained
punishment or it's God testingthem.
And I just want to think aboutthat with people.
You know I go on to say youknow, people get to those
(03:00):
conclusions in my experience,either through shattering pain,
the shattering pain of life, orbad theology that oversimplifies
Bad theology, that's lookingfor a one-to-one cause and
effect explanation of everythingin life.
They want to do that and Iunderstand it.
(03:20):
They want to do that becausefor some people it's easier to
understand that oh, there's aGod sitting on high who's
putting these burdens on my backto test and see if I will be a
good follower.
It's easier for some people tothink that than it is for them
to understand that suffering istragically random.
(03:44):
Some people are suffering rightnow just because of what part
of the world they woke up in.
Some people are suffering forlots of different reasons.
Some people got diseases justbecause it was just genetics.
They didn't do anything wrong.
Their mother or father didn'tdo anything wrong.
(04:04):
They're suffering.
Some people are sufferingbecause they live under, born in
certain places where there areunjust legal systems and unjust
sort of predatory economicsystems.
They're suffering.
And then there's another genreof suffering and that is
sometimes there's suffering thatcomes as a result of our own
(04:25):
personal choices.
There's suffering that are justthe consequences of saying yes
or no to certain things, but thebottom line here is that
suffering, by and large, is partof the human condition.
It's what it means to be human.
It's regrettable, and certainlysome of us maybe want to give
(04:46):
God some advice about how toproof us from suffering.
But suffering in one form orthe other ultimately even we all
suffer.
Death is just what it means tobe human, and so I want to talk
about the ways in which Jesusmade his way through that, not
(05:09):
that God forced him or us, butthe ways in which suffering and
testing show up in life.
I hope that it gives people agrasp, a handle on perhaps some
suffering that they themselvesare going through, which we
could call testing.
Melissa (05:28):
Yeah, I love that you point out here his suffering.
It was his suffering.
That quote tested him, not God,but that his suffering came
because he was upright in acrooked world.
So that was like the worldcausing the suffering that he
chose because he was standingupright.
So I guess there lies the test.
(05:48):
But that it wasn't God doing itto him.
Bishop Wright (05:52):
No, exactly right .
So if you go out and run amarathon right at the end of
that marathon, you're going tosuffer some version of
exhaustion.
Melissa (06:03):
Or blisters.
Bishop Wright (06:04):
Right, blisters, maybe dehydration, et cetera, et
cetera, right, but it comes asa consequence of what you have
decided to do, right.
And so what I want to say aboutJesus's suffering is that did
God sit on high and need Jesusto suffer?
I don't believe that God did.
I think that to the world inJesus, wanting to live with
(06:26):
integrity, upright, truthful,purposeful, that had
consequences.
He was upright, as I like tosay, upright in a crooked world.
John the Baptist came to speaktruth.
John the Baptist came to speaktruth to his own religious
tradition and their response wasto collude with then government
(06:49):
and have him beheaded.
I mean, there are consequenceswhen you know, in our own
nation's history, when womenstood up and said that women
ought to have the vote in thiscountry, those women suffered as
(07:14):
a consequence of their visionabout a democracy that embraced
the other 50% of its population,women.
There were consequences to that.
They were labeled, they werewritten off, they were
castigated.
So that's what I want to sayabout this particular,
particular kind of suffering.
Jesus suffered as a result ofhis actions and he suffered in a
(07:34):
particular way that theheadline in this whole text is.
He suffered and therefore wehave a friend who knows
suffering.
Therefore, we have a resourcewhen our time comes.
Melissa (07:48):
Ah, and therein lies the gold right, when our time
comes.
Bishop Wright (07:54):
Yeah, well, look, that's the whole point.
So if we say, the logic flowsthis way.
So if suffering whether we'retalking about stage four cancer
or whether we're talking aboutI'm suffering from some poor
choices that I have made, theconsequences of those choices,
whatever my genre of sufferingam I left alone to suffer?
(08:18):
Are there no resources for me?
Well, the good news is there isa resource, whether it's the
cancer ward or my own choices,right?
And it is number one, thatsuffering can be generative.
When we look at the way Jesushandles suffering, it becomes
generative.
Jesus locates us in oursuffering, comes alongside us in
(08:42):
our suffering, encourages inour suffering, and not only that
, invites us to then give oursuffering, our journey to other
people, right, in other words,as a resource to other people
who come behind us to suffer.
So what does suffering mean?
Well, we would say, in thefaith community, suffering means
that I have an opportunity inthese particular circumstances.
(09:05):
Right To number one knowsomething of God.
There's something of God thatis revealed to us in suffering.
That's the good news.
Melissa (09:38):
I hear you 100%.
I'm also struck by the idea, orthe notion of the perpetual
need to heal in order to havesaid resources, to continuing to
continue in suffering.
If and when there's somethingfor which we need to suffer
through.
Does that make sense?
Well, say more.
(09:58):
Well, I'm just, I'm curious.
We can't give that which we donot have.
Bishop Wright (10:05):
Right.
Melissa (10:05):
And so where, then, is the resource, so that we're not
just completely, justannihilated in our suffering?
Yeah, yeah, no, that's great.
Bishop Wright (10:14):
No, that's great, A great question.
So we would say in theChristian community, we would
say our resources are first oneanother.
So if I am empty, I'm infellowship, I'm in community
with you, right, and you are aresource to me.
We would say that our faith,tradition is our resource.
We would say our 66 books ofthe Bible are our resource.
(10:37):
We would say in our church, wewould say the sacraments of the
church are our resource, thebody and blood of Christ, we
would say sacred music,inspirational music, is a
resource, all those things that,when turned toward us and
ingested by us, strengthen us.
(10:58):
We would say just, community,this notion that I am not alone,
is a resource.
Sometimes, so many of us, youknow, compound our suffering by
isolating ourselves, and Iunderstand the temptation to do
that.
But the better practice insuffering is to have someone you
(11:18):
know.
Bill Withers' song comes tomind.
Lean On Me, right, and I'm nottrying to be cute here, but what
Bill Withers does is he namessomething so important in that
old, wonderful standard songwhich is when you're not strong
and I'll be your friend, I'llhelp you carry on.
I mean.
So there are lots of resources.
(11:39):
So what we've got to not do isgive in to self-pity, right?
What we've got to not do isjust think that you know, I'm I
mean, look Jesus.
Even Jesus flirted with theidea of being am I forsaken?
I'm overwhelmed by my sufferingand so.
So, therefore, does that mean Iam forsaken?
(12:00):
And I think even Jesus gives uswonderful permission then to
just say that to those of us whoare faithful, that we don't
have to be stoic in all oursuffering, we can even say
something to God, we can wonder,we can cry out to God hey God,
where are you even now?
So yeah, I think there's like awe are enveloped by resources
(12:22):
as we suffer, and I think that'ssort of the best possible
scenario, isn't it?
You know?
And what's interesting to meabout that is, I mean, I've been
on the you know the hospitalwards and the ICUs and all that,
and it's amazing, thiscompanionship and suffering that
(12:42):
we can give to each other.
It's the handheld, it's theback padded, it's the listening,
it's just.
It's standing beside somebodyas they cry.
It's allowing them to confessthat they are overwhelmed in our
midst.
It's not trying to fix them orgive them a Bible platitude at
the wrong time, right, it's justto be.
(13:03):
And you know the fact that wehave as a symbol of our
organization the Christianchurch, the fact that we have as
(13:33):
a symbol of our organizationthe Christian church, jesus, who
knew suffering, who was not asort of elite spiritual
superhero, a friend who saw hiscousin decapitated, his big
cousin, who had actuallyencouraged him to live his life
with a one-word sermon calledrepent.
I mean, he is a friend we talkabout.
Oh, what a friend we have inJesus.
But he is a friend in joy and afriend in suffering.
And so what we want to say topeople is that is God testing
(13:58):
you?
I don't like to use thatlanguage.
I think life is a test.
I think being human is a test,and the test is revealing what
is actually primary for us.
Life tests us in a way that itshowcases our gaps.
Life tests us in a way that wenow have some sense of how I can
(14:20):
strengthen myself.
We talk about in our traditionthat my infirmity, my weakness,
might invite me to know Christin deeper ways right.
And that my infirmity right nowmight fortify my faith, which is
countercognitive, right.
(14:41):
So I'm not being just absolutelydiminished here that there is
some part, even as my body isweakened, there is some part of
me that can be strengthened,which will hold me.
And, of course, look, if you'veever had the blessing of
meeting someone who sort ofdefied self-pity, who moved
(15:06):
through those seasons, who movedthrough the seasons of
questioning God and then, evenas they battled, let's say,
disease or something, had thisupsurge of confidence in God and
faith in God, then you've had agreat gift.
If you've ever met those peopleand those people are the people
(15:28):
that I remember and you want tobe like them that's this
infectious thing that happenswith faith is that when you meet
heroes and sheroes in the faith, you want to be one, because
you know that there are peoplewho are behind you, looking at
you.
And it's not about performingfaith.
(15:49):
It's about finding something inour faith that is authentic,
that allows me to cry and bestrong all at the same time, and
then to extend that to someoneelse.
Melissa (16:01):
Wow.
Well, you just said a number ofthings and it's like you picked
them out of my brain, only notnecessarily in the order that I
had them.
You said about authenticity.
I was thinking about somethingabout powering through, and
sometimes I feel like peoplehave to put on a brave face, and
(16:23):
they do, and that's wonderful.
I'm curious how we can beauthentic.
You also said authentic.
How can we be more authenticwith one another so that we
don't have to be fake about oursuffering, or is there a way to
be, or not?
Bishop Wright (16:40):
Well, yes, of course, so authentic is.
I'm afraid.
I got a diagnosis and I'mafraid, right, I mean there's no
performance necessary, right?
No religious entertainment willdo right.
I mean there's no performancenecessary, right?
No religious entertainment willdo right.
What we're looking at is I'mhuman and I'm afraid I don't
want to leave my marriage bydeath.
I don't want to leave mychildren, you know, motherless
or fatherless.
I mean that is a part of beingauthentic and I live in tension
(17:04):
with faith.
I'm also afraid and I also havefaith and I'm just trying to
work with both of those thingswhich are authentically who I am
.
You know I love to see these.
These, these videos sometimeswill pop up on my social media
where some, some I saw afirefighter who was diagnosed
(17:26):
with cancer and had to have hishead shaved and everybody in his
fire department shaved theirhead so that they could be
alongside of their brother, andI've seen that.
You know, with children, youknow that family members, you
know there is a way to be humanand I think that is what is
really rich and that is what isthe gift, and I think this is
(17:49):
the gift that Jesus gives us,that he was in fact human.
I mean, you know and walkedthrough all these things that we
know.
I think that makes him areliable conversation partner
and I think that makes himsomeone who is trustworthy.
Melissa (18:03):
Yeah, I guess my greatest lament for Jesus fellow
human beings suffering is whenthey suffer so, so deeply, and
maybe because of their theology,they blame God for it and they
just like completely give up.
Bishop Wright (18:20):
Life is a crapshoot.
And and look people in mybusiness, they're not.
We could be more honest aboutthat.
And and loving God and livingfor God does not guarantee, does
not entitle you to a sort of afence around your life, right,
(18:41):
it does not save you from whatit means to be human.
People love God and have beenabsolutely faithful and they
will get cancer Right, will getcancer right.
People will love God and serveGod with their whole life and
(19:01):
they will get you know,alzheimer's, right.
And so the invitation is rightto live our lives and understand
that this faith in Jesus Christin its best form helps us to
live with the randomness of life.
It doesn't protect us from therandomness of life, right, we
(19:21):
live with it.
We live with it.
And, to be honest, which wouldyou choose?
I'd rather have resources iflife is random than to have no
resources at all and have todeal with this of my own power
and my own understanding.
Look, what Jesus does andperhaps it's his greatest gift
(19:42):
is he helps us to find meaning,even in suffering.
Melissa (19:45):
Yeah, so how is that a resource for us, bishop?
How do we connect the dotsbetween our relationship with
God and God being a worthyresource for us?
Bishop Wright (19:56):
Because I am not alone.
I am not alone, and even Jesusknew what it felt like to feel
forsaken and to suffer, to beabandoned, rejected and abused.
I am not alone, I have a friendI mean I hope it doesn't sound
so simplistic, but at some levelit is and the resource is that
not only do I have Jesus, but Ihave some of Jesus's friends to
(20:18):
come alongside of me, right, andI have a place we call it
prayer to tell out all of myfear, to tell about all of my
anger I mean, that's the otherthing I want to say.
I think begs for us to say hereand that is anger with God is a
part of a life with God, and sowe haven't let God down and we
(20:41):
can't say, you know, weshouldn't sort of be ashamed of
that, it's part of of life withGod.
Moving through you talked aboutauthenticity Moving through all
of those quadrants of life withGod should yield for us an
authentic relationship with God.
(21:02):
Look at the Psalms, forinstance.
Every emotion you and I couldhave given any circumstances of
our lives is already in thePsalms, arguably one of the most
human books of the Bible.
Right, it's all there.
And so there's permission inthe Psalms to say everything we
(21:24):
need to.
What I despise is when we tellpeople and religious traditions
tell people that they're lettingdown God because they have
these very human emotions orthey ask why?
Right and so.
That's tragic to me, that'sinsult and injury, that's
spiritual malpractice.
Melissa (21:58):
Bishop, not too long ago a friend of mine made a
shocking statement and said it'ssilly to have hope because
ultimately, it's hope that letsyou down, because ultimately,
it's hope that lets you down.
Obviously they're going througha period of suffering and yet,
wow, what a statement, and itjust.
I had a visceral reaction to it.
(22:20):
I'm curious if you've got aresponse.
Bishop Wright (22:22):
Hope takes courage right, because what
you're risking is beingdisappointed by God.
So you know, I understand theperson's sentiment and hope
feels like a bridge too far formost of us, especially when
situations are dire.
We wonder if we're just beingsilly or childish to even want
(22:47):
to have hope in difficultcircumstances, medical or other
kinds of circumstances andrelationships.
Hope for our lives?
I understand it, and yet thatis the journey right For us.
In our tradition, easterdoesn't come before Good Friday,
(23:16):
right, easter comes after GoodFriday.
And so you know the very bottomright, the very bottom of it
all, is part of what comes nextright.
And you know that wholemovement, you know, I think, is
really a cyclical movement forour lives.
There's a tragic down that isfollowed oftentimes by an up.
There are resources to dealwith the down so that we can
find our way towards up, towardshope.
(23:39):
And sometimes the truth is wedon't have any hope right now
and so we've got to borrow hope.
And again, let me just stressagain, this is why we have each
other Before know, when I,before I, was elected Bishop, I
had a congregation in SouthwestAtlanta, a marvelous
congregation, and you know wehad a hundred voice volunteer
(24:02):
choir right, which is wasextraordinary.
Yeah, we grew from 15 people inthe choir to a hundred voices
and in the early days, before wegot all big and fancy and maybe
when there were only about ahundred folks showing up total,
I was notorious as we begunworship and I would listen to
(24:26):
them sing, I would stop them, Iwould stop the organist from
playing and I would stopeverybody from singing.
And I look back now and thinkto myself oh my God, I can't
believe I did that, but I wouldstop them.
And it became a little bitfunny to some of them, annoying
to others and I would say isthat what we're going to do this
(24:46):
morning?
Is that we're going to mumblethis morning?
And then I would preach alittle mini sermon right there
and I would say don't you knowthat somebody, all they can do
today was just to get in thisbuilding.
Life is so hard for somebodythis morning that all they could
(25:07):
do is get in this building andsit down beside you.
You need to sing for thembecause they can't sing, and
maybe on next Sunday they'llreturn the favor.
And so you know, I heard a longtime ago that one of the great
indicators of congregationalhealth is congregational singing
(25:27):
, and so so I just beat thatdrum, beat that drum and finally
it became quite the singingcongregation, and I thought that
was one of the best gifts thatwe could give each other, which
is to sing hope into one another, is that there were days when
(25:54):
not only did I only have enoughstrength to get in that building
, but I also had to preach, andthere were occasions where I
thought to myself and did say toGod hey, god, you better help
me because I don't know, I don'thave much today, and that choir
would get to singing and theywould sing.
It's almost like blowing airover embers and I and so when
(26:15):
you, we talk about hope, that'swhat I think about.
I think about we've got to dothat for each other.
Jesus, the way he holdssuffering, he does that for, for
us.
That's what that the writer ofhebrews is saying.
Therefore, we have someone whohas been suffered, who has
suffered, and so we have someonewho has suffered and so we have
access to him, even as we arebeing tested by our suffering.
(26:35):
But we've got to do that foreach other, and it's not
contingent on agreeing with eachother politically or about any
issue of the day, it is probablyone of the most human things we
can do is to be an outstretchedhand as another brother or
sister is suffering.
Melissa (26:54):
Indeed Friends, if you're suffering, just please
remember you are not alone.
You're not alone, bishop, thankyou.
And thank you, listeners, fortuning in to For People.
You can follow us on Instagramand Facebook at Bishop Rob
Wright.
Please subscribe, leave areview and we'll be back with
you next week.
Hope takes courage, because what you're
risking is being disappointed byGod, and hope feels like a
bridge too far for most of us,especially when situations are
dire.
We wonder if we're just beingsilly or childish to even want
to have hope in difficultcircumstances.
I understand it, and yet thatis the journey, right?
(00:22):
You know, for us, in ourtradition, easter doesn't come
before Good Friday, right,easter comes after Good Friday.
Melissa (00:42):
Hi listeners, I'm Melissa Rau and this is a
conversation inspired by ForFaith, a weekly devotion sent
out every Friday.
You can find a link to thisweek's For Faith and a link to
subscribe in the episode'sdescription.
How's it going, bishop?
Bishop Wright (00:56):
Yes, yes For yes, here we are.
Melissa (00:59):
You named this week's devotion, tested based off of
Hebrews 2, verses 14 through 18.
Bishop Wright (01:07):
That's right.
Melissa (01:09):
And really I'm reading it.
It's about suffering.
It's about all the things thatJesus exemplified in the ways
that he suffered.
So I'm curious what's kind ofthe big broad stroke that?
Bishop Wright (01:25):
he suffered.
So I'm curious what's kind ofthe big broad stroke?
Well, we always try to use thispodcast as fodder for people's
reflection and thinking and Ihope that people experience this
(01:50):
podcast as an effort in care.
And so when I think about thisword tested and I think about
suffering as it appears in thesecond chapter of Hebrews, I'm
aware that a lot of people haveleft the church because they are
church hurt, and I'm aware alsothat there's a lot of people
who, because they have beenchurch hurt and been away from
the church for a long time, somepeople are coming back to
church and trying to findchurches where they can be
(02:13):
helped with some of these wordsand ways that have been foisted
on them as younger people,foisted on them as younger
people.
And so you know, part of what Ithink, I do or hope to do when
I'm writing and then when wetalk, melissa, is just try to
invite people into a gracefulspace.
You try to use this platformjust to invite people to think
(02:37):
and to affirm them and encouragethem.
And so you know, as I start offthis meditation, I say some
people believe that humansuffering is either God-ordained
punishment or it's God testingthem.
And I just want to think aboutthat with people.
You know I go on to say youknow, people get to those
(03:00):
conclusions in my experience,either through shattering pain,
the shattering pain of life, orbad theology that oversimplifies
Bad theology, that's lookingfor a one-to-one cause and
effect explanation of everythingin life.
They want to do that and Iunderstand it.
(03:20):
They want to do that becausefor some people it's easier to
understand that oh, there's aGod sitting on high who's
putting these burdens on my backto test and see if I will be a
good follower.
It's easier for some people tothink that than it is for them
to understand that suffering istragically random.
(03:44):
Some people are suffering rightnow just because of what part
of the world they woke up in.
Some people are suffering forlots of different reasons.
Some people got diseases justbecause it was just genetics.
They didn't do anything wrong.
Their mother or father didn'tdo anything wrong.
(04:04):
They're suffering.
Some people are sufferingbecause they live under, born in
certain places where there areunjust legal systems and unjust
sort of predatory economicsystems.
They're suffering.
And then there's another genreof suffering and that is
sometimes there's suffering thatcomes as a result of our own
(04:25):
personal choices.
There's suffering that are justthe consequences of saying yes
or no to certain things, but thebottom line here is that
suffering, by and large, is partof the human condition.
It's what it means to be human.
It's regrettable, and certainlysome of us maybe want to give
(04:46):
God some advice about how toproof us from suffering.
But suffering in one form orthe other ultimately even we all
suffer.
Death is just what it means tobe human, and so I want to talk
about the ways in which Jesusmade his way through that, not
(05:09):
that God forced him or us, butthe ways in which suffering and
testing show up in life.
I hope that it gives people agrasp, a handle on perhaps some
suffering that they themselvesare going through, which we
could call testing.
Melissa (05:28):
Yeah, I love that you point out here his suffering.
It was his suffering.
That quote tested him, not God,but that his suffering came
because he was upright in acrooked world.
So that was like the worldcausing the suffering that he
chose because he was standingupright.
So I guess there lies the test.
(05:48):
But that it wasn't God doing itto him.
Bishop Wright (05:52):
No, exactly right .
So if you go out and run amarathon right at the end of
that marathon, you're going tosuffer some version of
exhaustion.
Melissa (06:03):
Or blisters.
Bishop Wright (06:04):
Right, blisters, maybe dehydration, et cetera, et
cetera, right, but it comes asa consequence of what you have
decided to do, right.
And so what I want to say aboutJesus's suffering is that did
God sit on high and need Jesusto suffer?
I don't believe that God did.
I think that to the world inJesus, wanting to live with
(06:26):
integrity, upright, truthful,purposeful, that had
consequences.
He was upright, as I like tosay, upright in a crooked world.
John the Baptist came to speaktruth.
John the Baptist came to speaktruth to his own religious
tradition and their response wasto collude with then government
(06:49):
and have him beheaded.
I mean, there are consequenceswhen you know, in our own
nation's history, when womenstood up and said that women
ought to have the vote in thiscountry, those women suffered as
(07:14):
a consequence of their visionabout a democracy that embraced
the other 50% of its population,women.
There were consequences to that.
They were labeled, they werewritten off, they were
castigated.
So that's what I want to sayabout this particular,
particular kind of suffering.
Jesus suffered as a result ofhis actions and he suffered in a
(07:34):
particular way that theheadline in this whole text is.
He suffered and therefore wehave a friend who knows
suffering.
Therefore, we have a resourcewhen our time comes.
Melissa (07:48):
Ah, and therein lies the gold right, when our time
comes.
Bishop Wright (07:54):
Yeah, well, look, that's the whole point.
So if we say, the logic flowsthis way.
So if suffering whether we'retalking about stage four cancer
or whether we're talking aboutI'm suffering from some poor
choices that I have made, theconsequences of those choices,
whatever my genre of sufferingam I left alone to suffer?
(08:18):
Are there no resources for me?
Well, the good news is there isa resource, whether it's the
cancer ward or my own choices,right?
And it is number one, thatsuffering can be generative.
When we look at the way Jesushandles suffering, it becomes
generative.
Jesus locates us in oursuffering, comes alongside us in
(08:42):
our suffering, encourages inour suffering, and not only that
, invites us to then give oursuffering, our journey to other
people, right, in other words,as a resource to other people
who come behind us to suffer.
So what does suffering mean?
Well, we would say, in thefaith community, suffering means
that I have an opportunity inthese particular circumstances.
(09:05):
Right To number one knowsomething of God.
There's something of God thatis revealed to us in suffering.
That's the good news.
Melissa (09:38):
I hear you 100%.
I'm also struck by the idea, orthe notion of the perpetual
need to heal in order to havesaid resources, to continuing to
continue in suffering.
If and when there's somethingfor which we need to suffer
through.
Does that make sense?
Well, say more.
(09:58):
Well, I'm just, I'm curious.
We can't give that which we donot have.
Bishop Wright (10:05):
Right.
Melissa (10:05):
And so where, then, is the resource, so that we're not
just completely, justannihilated in our suffering?
Yeah, yeah, no, that's great.
Bishop Wright (10:14):
No, that's great, A great question.
So we would say in theChristian community, we would
say our resources are first oneanother.
So if I am empty, I'm infellowship, I'm in community
with you, right, and you are aresource to me.
We would say that our faith,tradition is our resource.
We would say our 66 books ofthe Bible are our resource.
(10:37):
We would say in our church, wewould say the sacraments of the
church are our resource, thebody and blood of Christ, we
would say sacred music,inspirational music, is a
resource, all those things that,when turned toward us and
ingested by us, strengthen us.
(10:58):
We would say just, community,this notion that I am not alone,
is a resource.
Sometimes, so many of us, youknow, compound our suffering by
isolating ourselves, and Iunderstand the temptation to do
that.
But the better practice insuffering is to have someone you
(11:18):
know.
Bill Withers' song comes tomind.
Lean On Me, right, and I'm nottrying to be cute here, but what
Bill Withers does is he namessomething so important in that
old, wonderful standard songwhich is when you're not strong
and I'll be your friend, I'llhelp you carry on.
I mean.
So there are lots of resources.
(11:39):
So what we've got to not do isgive in to self-pity, right?
What we've got to not do isjust think that you know, I'm I
mean, look Jesus.
Even Jesus flirted with theidea of being am I forsaken?
I'm overwhelmed by my sufferingand so.
So, therefore, does that mean Iam forsaken?
(12:00):
And I think even Jesus gives uswonderful permission then to
just say that to those of us whoare faithful, that we don't
have to be stoic in all oursuffering, we can even say
something to God, we can wonder,we can cry out to God hey God,
where are you even now?
So yeah, I think there's like awe are enveloped by resources
(12:22):
as we suffer, and I think that'ssort of the best possible
scenario, isn't it?
You know?
And what's interesting to meabout that is, I mean, I've been
on the you know the hospitalwards and the ICUs and all that,
and it's amazing, thiscompanionship and suffering that
(12:42):
we can give to each other.
It's the handheld, it's theback padded, it's the listening,
it's just.
It's standing beside somebodyas they cry.
It's allowing them to confessthat they are overwhelmed in our
midst.
It's not trying to fix them orgive them a Bible platitude at
the wrong time, right, it's justto be.
(13:03):
And you know the fact that wehave as a symbol of our
organization the Christianchurch, the fact that we have as
(13:33):
a symbol of our organizationthe Christian church, jesus, who
knew suffering, who was not asort of elite spiritual
superhero, a friend who saw hiscousin decapitated, his big
cousin, who had actuallyencouraged him to live his life
with a one-word sermon calledrepent.
I mean, he is a friend we talkabout.
Oh, what a friend we have inJesus.
But he is a friend in joy and afriend in suffering.
And so what we want to say topeople is that is God testing
(13:58):
you?
I don't like to use thatlanguage.
I think life is a test.
I think being human is a test,and the test is revealing what
is actually primary for us.
Life tests us in a way that itshowcases our gaps.
Life tests us in a way that wenow have some sense of how I can
(14:20):
strengthen myself.
We talk about in our traditionthat my infirmity, my weakness,
might invite me to know Christin deeper ways right.
And that my infirmity right nowmight fortify my faith, which is
countercognitive, right.
(14:41):
So I'm not being just absolutelydiminished here that there is
some part, even as my body isweakened, there is some part of
me that can be strengthened,which will hold me.
And, of course, look, if you'veever had the blessing of
meeting someone who sort ofdefied self-pity, who moved
(15:06):
through those seasons, who movedthrough the seasons of
questioning God and then, evenas they battled, let's say,
disease or something, had thisupsurge of confidence in God and
faith in God, then you've had agreat gift.
If you've ever met those peopleand those people are the people
(15:28):
that I remember and you want tobe like them that's this
infectious thing that happenswith faith is that when you meet
heroes and sheroes in the faith, you want to be one, because
you know that there are peoplewho are behind you, looking at
you.
And it's not about performingfaith.
(15:49):
It's about finding something inour faith that is authentic,
that allows me to cry and bestrong all at the same time, and
then to extend that to someoneelse.
Melissa (16:01):
Wow.
Well, you just said a number ofthings and it's like you picked
them out of my brain, only notnecessarily in the order that I
had them.
You said about authenticity.
I was thinking about somethingabout powering through, and
sometimes I feel like peoplehave to put on a brave face, and
(16:23):
they do, and that's wonderful.
I'm curious how we can beauthentic.
You also said authentic.
How can we be more authenticwith one another so that we
don't have to be fake about oursuffering, or is there a way to
be, or not?
Bishop Wright (16:40):
Well, yes, of course, so authentic is.
I'm afraid.
I got a diagnosis and I'mafraid, right, I mean there's no
performance necessary, right?
No religious entertainment willdo right.
I mean there's no performancenecessary, right?
No religious entertainment willdo right.
What we're looking at is I'mhuman and I'm afraid I don't
want to leave my marriage bydeath.
I don't want to leave mychildren, you know, motherless
or fatherless.
I mean that is a part of beingauthentic and I live in tension
(17:04):
with faith.
I'm also afraid and I also havefaith and I'm just trying to
work with both of those thingswhich are authentically who I am
.
You know I love to see these.
These, these videos sometimeswill pop up on my social media
where some, some I saw afirefighter who was diagnosed
(17:26):
with cancer and had to have hishead shaved and everybody in his
fire department shaved theirhead so that they could be
alongside of their brother, andI've seen that.
You know, with children, youknow that family members, you
know there is a way to be humanand I think that is what is
really rich and that is what isthe gift, and I think this is
(17:49):
the gift that Jesus gives us,that he was in fact human.
I mean, you know and walkedthrough all these things that we
know.
I think that makes him areliable conversation partner
and I think that makes himsomeone who is trustworthy.
Melissa (18:03):
Yeah, I guess my greatest lament for Jesus fellow
human beings suffering is whenthey suffer so, so deeply, and
maybe because of their theology,they blame God for it and they
just like completely give up.
Bishop Wright (18:20):
Life is a crapshoot.
And and look people in mybusiness, they're not.
We could be more honest aboutthat.
And and loving God and livingfor God does not guarantee, does
not entitle you to a sort of afence around your life, right,
(18:41):
it does not save you from whatit means to be human.
People love God and have beenabsolutely faithful and they
will get cancer Right, will getcancer right.
People will love God and serveGod with their whole life and
(19:01):
they will get you know,alzheimer's, right.
And so the invitation is rightto live our lives and understand
that this faith in Jesus Christin its best form helps us to
live with the randomness of life.
It doesn't protect us from therandomness of life, right, we
(19:21):
live with it.
We live with it.
And, to be honest, which wouldyou choose?
I'd rather have resources iflife is random than to have no
resources at all and have todeal with this of my own power
and my own understanding.
Look, what Jesus does andperhaps it's his greatest gift
(19:42):
is he helps us to find meaning,even in suffering.
Melissa (19:45):
Yeah, so how is that a resource for us, bishop?
How do we connect the dotsbetween our relationship with
God and God being a worthyresource for us?
Bishop Wright (19:56):
Because I am not alone.
I am not alone, and even Jesusknew what it felt like to feel
forsaken and to suffer, to beabandoned, rejected and abused.
I am not alone, I have a friendI mean I hope it doesn't sound
so simplistic, but at some levelit is and the resource is that
not only do I have Jesus, but Ihave some of Jesus's friends to
(20:18):
come alongside of me, right, andI have a place we call it
prayer to tell out all of myfear, to tell about all of my
anger I mean, that's the otherthing I want to say.
I think begs for us to say hereand that is anger with God is a
part of a life with God, and sowe haven't let God down and we
(20:41):
can't say, you know, weshouldn't sort of be ashamed of
that, it's part of of life withGod.
Moving through you talked aboutauthenticity Moving through all
of those quadrants of life withGod should yield for us an
authentic relationship with God.
(21:02):
Look at the Psalms, forinstance.
Every emotion you and I couldhave given any circumstances of
our lives is already in thePsalms, arguably one of the most
human books of the Bible.
Right, it's all there.
And so there's permission inthe Psalms to say everything we
(21:24):
need to.
What I despise is when we tellpeople and religious traditions
tell people that they're lettingdown God because they have
these very human emotions orthey ask why?
Right and so.
That's tragic to me, that'sinsult and injury, that's
spiritual malpractice.
Melissa (21:58):
Bishop, not too long ago a friend of mine made a
shocking statement and said it'ssilly to have hope because
ultimately, it's hope that letsyou down, because ultimately,
it's hope that lets you down.
Obviously they're going througha period of suffering and yet,
wow, what a statement, and itjust.
I had a visceral reaction to it.
(22:20):
I'm curious if you've got aresponse.
Bishop Wright (22:22):
Hope takes courage right, because what
you're risking is beingdisappointed by God.
So you know, I understand theperson's sentiment and hope
feels like a bridge too far formost of us, especially when
situations are dire.
We wonder if we're just beingsilly or childish to even want
(22:47):
to have hope in difficultcircumstances, medical or other
kinds of circumstances andrelationships.
Hope for our lives?
I understand it, and yet thatis the journey right For us.
In our tradition, easterdoesn't come before Good Friday,
(23:16):
right, easter comes after GoodFriday.
And so you know the very bottomright, the very bottom of it
all, is part of what comes nextright.
And you know that wholemovement, you know, I think, is
really a cyclical movement forour lives.
There's a tragic down that isfollowed oftentimes by an up.
There are resources to dealwith the down so that we can
find our way towards up, towardshope.
(23:39):
And sometimes the truth is wedon't have any hope right now
and so we've got to borrow hope.
And again, let me just stressagain, this is why we have each
other Before know, when I,before I, was elected Bishop, I
had a congregation in SouthwestAtlanta, a marvelous
congregation, and you know wehad a hundred voice volunteer
(24:02):
choir right, which is wasextraordinary.
Yeah, we grew from 15 people inthe choir to a hundred voices
and in the early days, before wegot all big and fancy and maybe
when there were only about ahundred folks showing up total,
I was notorious as we begunworship and I would listen to
(24:26):
them sing, I would stop them, Iwould stop the organist from
playing and I would stopeverybody from singing.
And I look back now and thinkto myself oh my God, I can't
believe I did that, but I wouldstop them.
And it became a little bitfunny to some of them, annoying
to others and I would say isthat what we're going to do this
(24:46):
morning?
Is that we're going to mumblethis morning?
And then I would preach alittle mini sermon right there
and I would say don't you knowthat somebody, all they can do
today was just to get in thisbuilding.
Life is so hard for somebodythis morning that all they could
(25:07):
do is get in this building andsit down beside you.
You need to sing for thembecause they can't sing, and
maybe on next Sunday they'llreturn the favor.
And so you know, I heard a longtime ago that one of the great
indicators of congregationalhealth is congregational singing
(25:27):
, and so so I just beat thatdrum, beat that drum and finally
it became quite the singingcongregation, and I thought that
was one of the best gifts thatwe could give each other, which
is to sing hope into one another, is that there were days when
(25:54):
not only did I only have enoughstrength to get in that building
, but I also had to preach, andthere were occasions where I
thought to myself and did say toGod hey, god, you better help
me because I don't know, I don'thave much today, and that choir
would get to singing and theywould sing.
It's almost like blowing airover embers and I and so when
(26:15):
you, we talk about hope, that'swhat I think about.
I think about we've got to dothat for each other.
Jesus, the way he holdssuffering, he does that for, for
us.
That's what that the writer ofhebrews is saying.
Therefore, we have someone whohas been suffered, who has
suffered, and so we have someonewho has suffered and so we have
access to him, even as we arebeing tested by our suffering.
(26:35):
But we've got to do that foreach other, and it's not
contingent on agreeing with eachother politically or about any
issue of the day, it is probablyone of the most human things we
can do is to be an outstretchedhand as another brother or
sister is suffering.
Melissa (26:54):
Indeed Friends, if you're suffering, just please
remember you are not alone.
You're not alone, bishop, thankyou.
And thank you, listeners, fortuning in to For People.
You can follow us on Instagramand Facebook at Bishop Rob
Wright.
Please subscribe, leave areview and we'll be back with
you next week.
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