February 7, 2025 • 26 mins
Join us for Bishop Wright's latest podcast series: The Heart of Moral Leadership. Moral leadership is critical in turbulent political times because it provides a compass for guiding people through uncertainty, promoting justice, and fostering unity. In periods of division, leaders with strong ethical principles inspire trust, encourage empathy, and model behavior that prioritizes the common good over personal gain.
Jesus' leadership, marked by compassion, forgiveness, and a radical commitment to loving one's neighbor, offers a moral framework that transcends political and social boundaries. His teachings focus on humility, service, and advocating for the marginalized—values that resonate throughout history and remain relevant today.
In the series intro, Bishop Wright has a conversation with The Rev. Dr. Robert Franklin, Senior Advisor to the President of Emory University and the James T. and Berta R. Laney Chair in Moral Leadership. They discuss what defines a moral leader and draw examples from Jesus, Dr. King, and President Jimmy Carter. Dr. Franklin shares the importance of nurturing a collective responsibility, urging us all to embody ethical behaviors and cultivate a moral compass in our daily lives. Listen in for the full conversation.
Dr. Franklin is the Senior Advisor to the President of Emory University and holds the James T. and Berta R. Laney Chair in Moral Leadership. Before joining Emory, Franklin was a visiting scholar at Stanford University’s Martin Luther King Jr. Institute and Director of the Interfaith Religion Department at the Chautauqua Institution in New York. An ordained minister, Franklin served as President of the Interdenominational Theological Center (ITC) in Atlanta from 1997 to 2002.
A celebrated author, Franklin has published four books: Moral Leadership: Integrity, Courage, Imagination (2020); Crisis in the Village: Restoring Hope in African American Communities (2007); Another Day's Journey: Black Churches Confronting the American Crisis (1997); and Liberating Visions: Human Fulfillment and Social Justice in African-American Thought (1990).
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Dr. Franklin (00:00):
People who inspire us to become the best versions
of ourselves.
They are able to do thatbecause moral leaders possess
integrity, courage, imaginationa host of virtues that prompt
them to serve the common goodand prompt them to invite others
(00:24):
to join the process of buildinga better community and a just
society.
Bishop Wright (00:40):
Hello everyone, this is Bishop Rob Wright and
this is For People.
Today I am honored to have aspecial guest with us, Dr.
Robert Franklin, who holdsdegrees from Morehouse College,
Harvard Divinity School and theUniversity of Chicago and is
presently the James and BertaLaney Professor in Moral
Leadership at Candler School ofTheology.
(01:01):
Dr Franklin, welcome, thank youvery much.
A real delight to be with youat this School of Theology, dr
Franklin welcome.
Dr. Franklin (01:05):
Thank you very much.
A real delight to be with youat this time of the year.
Bishop Wright (01:09):
Yeah Well.
So I've asked Dr Franklin on,because Dr Franklin has wrote a
book some years ago a couple ofyears ago, 2020, in fact on
moral leadership, integrity,courage and imagination.
And I'm thinking about we'vejust buried Jimmy Carter this
(01:34):
month.
We are thinking about Dr Kinghis 96th birthday would be in
just a couple of days and, as Italk to young people, young
people are not exactly sureabout going to church, but young
people are interested in thisthing that I am calling moral
leadership.
So can you just set the tablefor us?
If we're going to talk aboutmoral leadership, what are we
(01:55):
actually talking about?
Define that for me.
Dr. Franklin (02:00):
I think about moral leadership as people who
inspire us to become the bestversions of ourselves.
They are able to do thatbecause moral leaders possess
integrity, courage, imagination,wisdom, empathy, motivation,
(02:28):
wisdom, empathy a host ofvirtues that prompt them to
serve the common good and promptthem to invite others to join
the process of building a bettercommunity and a just society.
So that's a compound definition, but essentially it gets at
people of virtue who serve thecommon good, not just their own
(02:51):
interests, and who invite othersto join.
Bishop Wright (02:55):
Dr Franklin, you know you've written about this.
You hold the Laney chair atCandler.
The Laney chair at Candler, youlive this out as the 10th
president of Morehouse College.
Why do you care about this?
Why is this occupied?
So much of your intellectualspace.
Dr. Franklin (03:16):
Because the single best predictor of whether or
not an organization will thrive,predictor of whether or not an
organization will thrive,whether a community will be
conducive to the flourishing ofall of its members, whether a
society will prosper and persist, the single best predictor is
(03:41):
the presence of moral leaders,the presence of leaders of
integrity and courage and vision, and leaders who are serving,
looking out for all people,starting with the least
advantaged members of thecommunity.
And so the presence of moralleadership is almost a promise
(04:01):
to the future and a promise toexisting community members, that
there's someone at the helmhere who thinks about all of us,
thinks about how we can allflourish and wants us to
recognize our fundamentalinterdependence.
We can't be separate, we can'tbe apart, we are connected, and
(04:24):
that's the fundamental messageof leaders like President Jimmy
Carter and Martin Luther King.
Bishop Wright (04:31):
And so these people, you know, come to this
doing and being from lots ofdifferent places, from lots of
different faith traditions infact, and some maybe even from
no faith tradition.
But they come and they begin tobehave differently and some of
(04:51):
the ways you've described theybegin to out of their own
personal sort of value compassand then they arrive at if we
were trying to graph this outthen they arrive at within the
community, some sort of moralauthority, right, and then that
moral authority then becomessome kind of moral leadership
(05:13):
and then, interestingly enough,it's cyclical, then it goes back
to and is refreshed byprinciples and practices.
Have I got that right?
Dr. Franklin (05:21):
Yes, that's exactly right, and I think you
characterize it very well.
Bishop Wright (05:25):
Yeah, and so what would you say to people who are
worried about, you know, themoral state of our nation
through this conversation?
They're worried about the moralstate and they're wondering if,
when we bury people like JimmyCarter, if we aren't also saying
(05:45):
goodbye to an era where peopleworked on behalf of others, even
if it cost them politically andeconomically, et cetera, and
that those days are gone by andthis new way doesn't bring
forward this radical commitmentto the dignity of every human
(06:06):
being and also the well-being of, especially, at least, the lost
and the left behind.
What do you say to that?
Dr. Franklin (06:12):
Well, I think that we all do have a reason to
worry, because leaders set atone at the top.
This is one of the things I'veadmired about your leadership in
the church and the largersociety.
Leaders set a tone andcertainly through their language
and their rhetoric is reallycritical.
(06:32):
Words matter, prioritize ourfundamental concerns, and so I
think there is a worry, now thatwe will see a president of the
most powerful nation in theworld and a nation assumed to be
(06:57):
, and often celebrated to be, aleader of nations, that we will
be guided by someone whose toneat the top is self-centered.
Is America first, apart from thewell-being of others, is
exceedingly materialistic and,perhaps most tragically, is
(07:21):
transactional.
Is seeking to move a nationforward through making deals
that benefit us first.
America first.
Transactional, in contrast totransformational approaches to
leadership that ask others tobecome better versions of
(07:46):
themselves.
And it places certainresponsibilities on us, each of
us listening, thinking aboutthis now, to be the best version
, to tell the truth, to speaktruth to power, to keep our
promises, to forgive those whooffend us, all of those moral or
ethical behaviors require acertain kind of moral compass,
(08:10):
as you alluded to itearlierulogy, in particular, was
Walter Mondale, jimmy Carter'sformer vice president.
Bishop Wright (08:30):
His son read Walter Mondale's words, written
some years ago, of his eulogy.
He, Walter Mondale, through hisson there at the funeral
(08:51):
service, was saying to PresidentCarter President Carter, we
told the truth, we upheld therule of law, and you got a sense
that that was the goal.
Those were the goals, that wasthe end zone, if you will.
That was what they wanted todeliver.
And now, look, we're allcracked vessels and we all fall
short of the glory of God.
(09:12):
So this is not, you know, we'renot worshiping any human being,
necessarily, but I think it isfair to talk about those sorts
of what some people call oldtime kind of values.
He wanted to tell the truth, hewanted to uphold the rule of
(09:34):
law.
And you know what's interestingalso and you talk about this in
your book that moral leadersare students of the moral life
and the just society.
So moral leaders then becomeexpressions of those very ideals
that they're immersed in.
Dr. Franklin (09:52):
That's right.
That's right that embodiment ofthose values moves language and
rhetoric to action and toexample.
And I think people are lookingfor examples as we move about
and a lot of people worry are welosing moral leadership as a
(10:17):
theme?
Are there moral leaders around?
And I try to point to thepeople who are emerging from the
younger generations MalalaYousafzai, who became an
advocate for girls' education.
Greta Thunberg, who's bringingthe issues of climate, justice
(10:37):
and concern forward in some verypowerful ways, again for a
younger generation.
David Hogg focused and the twoJustins from Tennessee focused
on gun violence and moreresponsible use of weapons.
So I think that those leadersare there and we even see them
(10:57):
in the business community, butwe really do need the tone at
the top to help inspire anentire nation.
That's a power of what MartinKing was doing every time he
stood and challenged us.
We need an invitation to raiseour level of functioning and I
think we were doing a prettygood job for the past few years
(11:19):
and paying more attention to ourenvironment and attention to
the reducing child poverty inAmerica, trying to be attentive
to people who were devastated byCOVID and acknowledging the
inequitable impacts that thepandemic had.
And suddenly there's thisflourishing of anti-inclusion.
(11:44):
There's this flourishing ofanti-inclusion, equity,
diversity, rhetoric and policy.
What an awful statement ofmoral immaturity this is, that
somehow being anti-woke is anoble position, when in fact it
is, I think, short-sighted,self-centered and ultimately
(12:04):
self-destructive.
Bishop Wright (12:38):
Well, you know, lots of good ideas and good
words have been sort ofnegatively papered over, and it
seems to me what you're sayinghere, this idea of moral
leadership is it's someone whois other-centered.
You know, there's thatwonderful quote from Dr King is
that many a fool has rememberedthemselves into obscurity, but
only one man he's referring toJesus here only one man forgot
(13:01):
himself into eternity.
You know, there is this othercenteredness that takes the long
view that ends up, you know,bringing health.
I mean, we even see this.
You know, in the Old Testamentthe idea of shalom and justice
(13:23):
was supposed to, you know, justcreate well-being for the entire
community, and it was oneinteraction at a time until you
got to this cumulative covenant,keeping that put God and
neighbor first, and then thecumulative benefit of all of
(13:43):
that, of course, was a just andwhole society.
You know, I think and I'd loveto get your thoughts on this
that it's really sort ofintellectually lazy to make
people either good or bad.
You know, I sort of see thatwe're in an uncertain world,
lots of anxiety and feareverywhere, and it seems to me
(14:07):
that it's fear that sort ofinvites us down into the worst
expressions of ourselves, and sowe can't be gracious of spirit
to name the inequities that webenefited from, so we have to
write it off and castigate it.
Where's fear in all this, doc?
Dr. Franklin (14:30):
Yeah, yeah, fear is one of those primal emotions
aimed at the preservation andprotection of the ego of the
self, but it doesn't take youvery far when it comes to
preserving and building a goodcommunity.
This is where fear mustconstantly be counteracted by
(14:53):
altruism and I love your phraseabout the generosity required to
build a good community that welook out for people who are not
able to do so for themselves,but we also actively seek the
good of the other.
This is one of the ways inwhich Aristotle writes about the
(15:16):
beauty of friendship that afriend is not someone who's
trying to take advantage of you,to con you, to manipulate you,
for her, his, their own utilityor pleasure.
But he talks about this form offriendship that elevates and
says every day I get up, I'mthinking, of course, about
myself, but how I'll do andflourish, but I'm also thinking
(15:39):
about the people around me.
And certainly that's whathappens in a good friendship, a
good marriage, relationshipswith all sorts of significant
others.
But it's really and this iswhere we move toward altruism
that active goodwill towardothers, including strangers.
That is not simply a matter ofwe have a direct connection to
(16:03):
others.
It's thinking about strangers,it's planting the trees that we
will never enjoy, but the futuregenerations will.
Bishop Wright (16:12):
That's exactly right.
You know, also, in your bookyou refer to this idea of moral
leaders, frame issues as moralissues, and you know what we
know right now is.
You know we're just days aheadof the inauguration and Dr
(16:34):
King's celebration, and theyhappen on the same days, you
know, the January 20th.
What a fascinating, strikingintersection, right?
And then we know, too, thatthere has been a lot said about
immigration, and I happen to beone of those people who
recognize what I call the middleway.
(16:54):
We do need to secure theborders and at the same time, we
need to treat people withdignity, while understanding
that we have a labor shortage inthis country, and so what we
need is less rhetoric and morethoughtful policy.
But how would one begin toframe immigration, let's say, as
(17:15):
a moral issue?
Take a stab at that.
Dr. Franklin (17:18):
Yeah Well, the fundamental question and it's
the ancient question of allethics and moral philosophy is
what does it mean to be a goodperson?
And secondly, what does it meanto establish a just community,
a just society, society?
And I think that as we thinkabout building good community
(17:38):
and just society, america hasdemonstrated to the rest of the
world that an open embrace ofothers is far more economically
(17:59):
beneficial than culturallyenriching, and ultimately more
aesthetic and beautiful than axenophobic fear of all others
who are not like us.
Now, we all know there arecountries, societies today,
where there's enormoushomogeneity.
(18:20):
Most people are of the samehistory and you know genotype
and so on.
They're wonderful countries,but I find the embrace of
diversity, difference, otherness, is a kind of enrichment of the
host country.
(18:41):
So there are all sorts of casesthat may be made business case.
You're asking about the moralcase, and here again I think
Martin King's in his last bookwhen Do we Go From here?
The final chapter is titled theWorld House and in that final
chapter and I sort of assignthis to all my students King is
(19:04):
writing about how we areindebted to all of the world.
So we can't pretend that.
You know, the cup of coffee wereceived is actually put on the
table by a South American.
Or if you have cocoa from WestAfrican, or a cup of tea from
China, the bar of soap in thebathroom is from Europe, and on
(19:26):
and on.
He paints this brilliant, justwonderful vision of our
interdependence, even though wesit here in our homes and think
well, I'm a self-contained,self-made person and so I think
that's a part of what you knowimmigration as a moral
opportunity to embrace the worldin a responsible way.
(19:48):
I love your more pragmatic wayof framing this.
There's a smart way to do thisthrough policy, but ultimately
it benefits us economically,intellectually and culturally.
Bishop Wright (20:02):
Yeah, you know we've talked about this idea at
sort of a sort of high level thepresidency maybe even policy.
You framed it up reallywonderfully for us.
I think, intellectually you'rea dad, you and your wife are
parents and I understand youalso have the blessing of
(20:23):
grandchildren.
So what do you say to yourbeloved grandchildren about some
or all of this?
I mean, you want to leave thema better world, but you also
want them to lean into the worldthat will be theirs, to lean
(20:45):
into the world that will betheirs.
And how do you say, as a wisegrandpa, in age-appropriate ways
, how you want your children tosort of take this baton and run
forward thinking about goodness,thinking about being, just
thinking about beingother-centered and all that?
What do you say to them?
Dr. Franklin (21:03):
being just thinking about being
other-centered and all that,what do you say to them I think
about Rabbi Hillel's wonderfulinjunction that the world is
equally balanced between goodand evil.
So your next act will tip thescale.
The scale, and I want mygrandchildren to appreciate the
(21:27):
power of agency of their action,their choices, even down to the
level of their consumer choices, and how they spend their
dollars, their money, makes adifference in the overall
(21:50):
project of repairing the world.
That wonderful Jewish notion oftikkun olam, that we are called
as moral people and spiritualagents to repair a broken world,
and that's my charge to them,that they have power.
They can make a difference.
Choices matter.
Live aware of that, but alsothink about that interesting
(22:10):
metaphor If there is a balancebetween the forces of good and
evil and you are going to haveyour one vote, your one big
action, ensure that it's on theside of the good, the true, the
right and the beautiful of thegood, the true, the right and
the beautiful.
Bishop Wright (22:33):
Last question, that's wonderful, actually, and
just that image.
You know, what I like aboutthat is that it helps understand
.
You know, Dr King did say youknow, change doesn't roll in on
wheels of inevitability, right,and so we have agency, and so
that, I think, is a, as a, as agrand child, you would hear that
I have agency, that my choicesdo matter.
In addition to being anintellectual, a former
(22:55):
university president and now aprofessor, you're also ordained
in a couple of traditions, in acouple of traditions, and so, as
we wrap up here, I wonder, asyou think about moral leadership
, I wonder what piece ofscripture dances in your mind
(23:19):
about this that calls to you,about this moral leadership that
affirms it for you?
Dr. Franklin (23:21):
Yeah, wow, thank you.
That's a wonderful pastoralquestion and I think the two
points I'd make is remember, aswe meditate on Martin Luther
King through this season, thatKing was a Christian, but he
learned so much of his spiritualwealth and intellectual capital
(23:42):
Martin Luther King utilized wasfrom a non-Christian, from a
Hindu Gandhi, mahatma Gandhi andI think King demonstrates, in
being authentically a matureChristian believer, he's also
able to learn from other greatwisdom traditions, wisdom
(24:07):
traditions.
So I hope everyone in this yearin particular, where there's so
much fear of the other and somuch xenophobia, make it a point
to read something, listen tosomething from outside your
tradition, but then return toyour own tradition and explore
it with new eyes, having visitedacross the street, as it were.
And that's why I like yourquestion and for me, in short,
(24:30):
it would be this interestingpassage in 2 Corinthians 5,
where Paul is writing to thechurch 2 Corinthians 5, 17, and
says if we are in Christ, we arenew creatures, new creation and
old things have passed.
Old things are now new, Newpossibilities are before us, but
(24:51):
bear in mind, we have beengiven the ministry of
reconciliation.
God has reconciled us, which isclosing the gap between humans
and the holy, between humans andthe holy.
And now your role is to is backto that notion of heal the land
(25:13):
, repair creation, or myfavorite three-word definition
of what justice is about isrestore right relationships.
And that's what I read.
We are called to be restorersof right relationships as we
undertake that SecondCorinthians 5 challenge and
(25:34):
invitation of being ministers ofreconciliation.
Bishop Wright (25:40):
Wonderful, wonderful Thanks for joining us.
Thank you for leading us out inthis conversation around moral
leadership for the next coupleof weeks.
Friends, the Reverend Dr RobertFranklin, thank you again,
Dr. Franklin (25:55):
Thank you, Bishop Wright.
People who inspire us to become the best versions
of ourselves.
They are able to do thatbecause moral leaders possess
integrity, courage, imaginationa host of virtues that prompt
them to serve the common goodand prompt them to invite others
(00:24):
to join the process of buildinga better community and a just
society.
Bishop Wright (00:40):
Hello everyone, this is Bishop Rob Wright and
this is For People.
Today I am honored to have aspecial guest with us, Dr.
Robert Franklin, who holdsdegrees from Morehouse College,
Harvard Divinity School and theUniversity of Chicago and is
presently the James and BertaLaney Professor in Moral
Leadership at Candler School ofTheology.
(01:01):
Dr Franklin, welcome, thank youvery much.
A real delight to be with youat this School of Theology, dr
Franklin welcome.
Dr. Franklin (01:05):
Thank you very much.
A real delight to be with youat this time of the year.
Bishop Wright (01:09):
Yeah Well.
So I've asked Dr Franklin on,because Dr Franklin has wrote a
book some years ago a couple ofyears ago, 2020, in fact on
moral leadership, integrity,courage and imagination.
And I'm thinking about we'vejust buried Jimmy Carter this
(01:34):
month.
We are thinking about Dr Kinghis 96th birthday would be in
just a couple of days and, as Italk to young people, young
people are not exactly sureabout going to church, but young
people are interested in thisthing that I am calling moral
leadership.
So can you just set the tablefor us?
If we're going to talk aboutmoral leadership, what are we
(01:55):
actually talking about?
Define that for me.
Dr. Franklin (02:00):
I think about moral leadership as people who
inspire us to become the bestversions of ourselves.
They are able to do thatbecause moral leaders possess
integrity, courage, imagination,wisdom, empathy, motivation,
(02:28):
wisdom, empathy a host ofvirtues that prompt them to
serve the common good and promptthem to invite others to join
the process of building a bettercommunity and a just society.
So that's a compound definition, but essentially it gets at
people of virtue who serve thecommon good, not just their own
(02:51):
interests, and who invite othersto join.
Bishop Wright (02:55):
Dr Franklin, you know you've written about this.
You hold the Laney chair atCandler.
The Laney chair at Candler, youlive this out as the 10th
president of Morehouse College.
Why do you care about this?
Why is this occupied?
So much of your intellectualspace.
Dr. Franklin (03:16):
Because the single best predictor of whether or
not an organization will thrive,predictor of whether or not an
organization will thrive,whether a community will be
conducive to the flourishing ofall of its members, whether a
society will prosper and persist, the single best predictor is
(03:41):
the presence of moral leaders,the presence of leaders of
integrity and courage and vision, and leaders who are serving,
looking out for all people,starting with the least
advantaged members of thecommunity.
And so the presence of moralleadership is almost a promise
(04:01):
to the future and a promise toexisting community members, that
there's someone at the helmhere who thinks about all of us,
thinks about how we can allflourish and wants us to
recognize our fundamentalinterdependence.
We can't be separate, we can'tbe apart, we are connected, and
(04:24):
that's the fundamental messageof leaders like President Jimmy
Carter and Martin Luther King.
Bishop Wright (04:31):
And so these people, you know, come to this
doing and being from lots ofdifferent places, from lots of
different faith traditions infact, and some maybe even from
no faith tradition.
But they come and they begin tobehave differently and some of
(04:51):
the ways you've described theybegin to out of their own
personal sort of value compassand then they arrive at if we
were trying to graph this outthen they arrive at within the
community, some sort of moralauthority, right, and then that
moral authority then becomessome kind of moral leadership
(05:13):
and then, interestingly enough,it's cyclical, then it goes back
to and is refreshed byprinciples and practices.
Have I got that right?
Dr. Franklin (05:21):
Yes, that's exactly right, and I think you
characterize it very well.
Bishop Wright (05:25):
Yeah, and so what would you say to people who are
worried about, you know, themoral state of our nation
through this conversation?
They're worried about the moralstate and they're wondering if,
when we bury people like JimmyCarter, if we aren't also saying
(05:45):
goodbye to an era where peopleworked on behalf of others, even
if it cost them politically andeconomically, et cetera, and
that those days are gone by andthis new way doesn't bring
forward this radical commitmentto the dignity of every human
(06:06):
being and also the well-being of, especially, at least, the lost
and the left behind.
What do you say to that?
Dr. Franklin (06:12):
Well, I think that we all do have a reason to
worry, because leaders set atone at the top.
This is one of the things I'veadmired about your leadership in
the church and the largersociety.
Leaders set a tone andcertainly through their language
and their rhetoric is reallycritical.
(06:32):
Words matter, prioritize ourfundamental concerns, and so I
think there is a worry, now thatwe will see a president of the
most powerful nation in theworld and a nation assumed to be
(06:57):
, and often celebrated to be, aleader of nations, that we will
be guided by someone whose toneat the top is self-centered.
Is America first, apart from thewell-being of others, is
exceedingly materialistic and,perhaps most tragically, is
(07:21):
transactional.
Is seeking to move a nationforward through making deals
that benefit us first.
America first.
Transactional, in contrast totransformational approaches to
leadership that ask others tobecome better versions of
(07:46):
themselves.
And it places certainresponsibilities on us, each of
us listening, thinking aboutthis now, to be the best version
, to tell the truth, to speaktruth to power, to keep our
promises, to forgive those whooffend us, all of those moral or
ethical behaviors require acertain kind of moral compass,
(08:10):
as you alluded to itearlierulogy, in particular, was
Walter Mondale, jimmy Carter'sformer vice president.
Bishop Wright (08:30):
His son read Walter Mondale's words, written
some years ago, of his eulogy.
He, Walter Mondale, through hisson there at the funeral
(08:51):
service, was saying to PresidentCarter President Carter, we
told the truth, we upheld therule of law, and you got a sense
that that was the goal.
Those were the goals, that wasthe end zone, if you will.
That was what they wanted todeliver.
And now, look, we're allcracked vessels and we all fall
short of the glory of God.
(09:12):
So this is not, you know, we'renot worshiping any human being,
necessarily, but I think it isfair to talk about those sorts
of what some people call oldtime kind of values.
He wanted to tell the truth, hewanted to uphold the rule of
(09:34):
law.
And you know what's interestingalso and you talk about this in
your book that moral leadersare students of the moral life
and the just society.
So moral leaders then becomeexpressions of those very ideals
that they're immersed in.
Dr. Franklin (09:52):
That's right.
That's right that embodiment ofthose values moves language and
rhetoric to action and toexample.
And I think people are lookingfor examples as we move about
and a lot of people worry are welosing moral leadership as a
(10:17):
theme?
Are there moral leaders around?
And I try to point to thepeople who are emerging from the
younger generations MalalaYousafzai, who became an
advocate for girls' education.
Greta Thunberg, who's bringingthe issues of climate, justice
(10:37):
and concern forward in some verypowerful ways, again for a
younger generation.
David Hogg focused and the twoJustins from Tennessee focused
on gun violence and moreresponsible use of weapons.
So I think that those leadersare there and we even see them
(10:57):
in the business community, butwe really do need the tone at
the top to help inspire anentire nation.
That's a power of what MartinKing was doing every time he
stood and challenged us.
We need an invitation to raiseour level of functioning and I
think we were doing a prettygood job for the past few years
(11:19):
and paying more attention to ourenvironment and attention to
the reducing child poverty inAmerica, trying to be attentive
to people who were devastated byCOVID and acknowledging the
inequitable impacts that thepandemic had.
And suddenly there's thisflourishing of anti-inclusion.
(11:44):
There's this flourishing ofanti-inclusion, equity,
diversity, rhetoric and policy.
What an awful statement ofmoral immaturity this is, that
somehow being anti-woke is anoble position, when in fact it
is, I think, short-sighted,self-centered and ultimately
(12:04):
self-destructive.
Bishop Wright (12:38):
Well, you know, lots of good ideas and good
words have been sort ofnegatively papered over, and it
seems to me what you're sayinghere, this idea of moral
leadership is it's someone whois other-centered.
You know, there's thatwonderful quote from Dr King is
that many a fool has rememberedthemselves into obscurity, but
only one man he's referring toJesus here only one man forgot
(13:01):
himself into eternity.
You know, there is this othercenteredness that takes the long
view that ends up, you know,bringing health.
I mean, we even see this.
You know, in the Old Testamentthe idea of shalom and justice
(13:23):
was supposed to, you know, justcreate well-being for the entire
community, and it was oneinteraction at a time until you
got to this cumulative covenant,keeping that put God and
neighbor first, and then thecumulative benefit of all of
(13:43):
that, of course, was a just andwhole society.
You know, I think and I'd loveto get your thoughts on this
that it's really sort ofintellectually lazy to make
people either good or bad.
You know, I sort of see thatwe're in an uncertain world,
lots of anxiety and feareverywhere, and it seems to me
(14:07):
that it's fear that sort ofinvites us down into the worst
expressions of ourselves, and sowe can't be gracious of spirit
to name the inequities that webenefited from, so we have to
write it off and castigate it.
Where's fear in all this, doc?
Dr. Franklin (14:30):
Yeah, yeah, fear is one of those primal emotions
aimed at the preservation andprotection of the ego of the
self, but it doesn't take youvery far when it comes to
preserving and building a goodcommunity.
This is where fear mustconstantly be counteracted by
(14:53):
altruism and I love your phraseabout the generosity required to
build a good community that welook out for people who are not
able to do so for themselves,but we also actively seek the
good of the other.
This is one of the ways inwhich Aristotle writes about the
(15:16):
beauty of friendship that afriend is not someone who's
trying to take advantage of you,to con you, to manipulate you,
for her, his, their own utilityor pleasure.
But he talks about this form offriendship that elevates and
says every day I get up, I'mthinking, of course, about
myself, but how I'll do andflourish, but I'm also thinking
(15:39):
about the people around me.
And certainly that's whathappens in a good friendship, a
good marriage, relationshipswith all sorts of significant
others.
But it's really and this iswhere we move toward altruism
that active goodwill towardothers, including strangers.
That is not simply a matter ofwe have a direct connection to
(16:03):
others.
It's thinking about strangers,it's planting the trees that we
will never enjoy, but the futuregenerations will.
Bishop Wright (16:12):
That's exactly right.
You know, also, in your bookyou refer to this idea of moral
leaders, frame issues as moralissues, and you know what we
know right now is.
You know we're just days aheadof the inauguration and Dr
(16:34):
King's celebration, and theyhappen on the same days, you
know, the January 20th.
What a fascinating, strikingintersection, right?
And then we know, too, thatthere has been a lot said about
immigration, and I happen to beone of those people who
recognize what I call the middleway.
(16:54):
We do need to secure theborders and at the same time, we
need to treat people withdignity, while understanding
that we have a labor shortage inthis country, and so what we
need is less rhetoric and morethoughtful policy.
But how would one begin toframe immigration, let's say, as
(17:15):
a moral issue?
Take a stab at that.
Dr. Franklin (17:18):
Yeah Well, the fundamental question and it's
the ancient question of allethics and moral philosophy is
what does it mean to be a goodperson?
And secondly, what does it meanto establish a just community,
a just society, society?
And I think that as we thinkabout building good community
(17:38):
and just society, america hasdemonstrated to the rest of the
world that an open embrace ofothers is far more economically
(17:59):
beneficial than culturallyenriching, and ultimately more
aesthetic and beautiful than axenophobic fear of all others
who are not like us.
Now, we all know there arecountries, societies today,
where there's enormoushomogeneity.
(18:20):
Most people are of the samehistory and you know genotype
and so on.
They're wonderful countries,but I find the embrace of
diversity, difference, otherness, is a kind of enrichment of the
host country.
(18:41):
So there are all sorts of casesthat may be made business case.
You're asking about the moralcase, and here again I think
Martin King's in his last bookwhen Do we Go From here?
The final chapter is titled theWorld House and in that final
chapter and I sort of assignthis to all my students King is
(19:04):
writing about how we areindebted to all of the world.
So we can't pretend that.
You know, the cup of coffee wereceived is actually put on the
table by a South American.
Or if you have cocoa from WestAfrican, or a cup of tea from
China, the bar of soap in thebathroom is from Europe, and on
(19:26):
and on.
He paints this brilliant, justwonderful vision of our
interdependence, even though wesit here in our homes and think
well, I'm a self-contained,self-made person and so I think
that's a part of what you knowimmigration as a moral
opportunity to embrace the worldin a responsible way.
(19:48):
I love your more pragmatic wayof framing this.
There's a smart way to do thisthrough policy, but ultimately
it benefits us economically,intellectually and culturally.
Bishop Wright (20:02):
Yeah, you know we've talked about this idea at
sort of a sort of high level thepresidency maybe even policy.
You framed it up reallywonderfully for us.
I think, intellectually you'rea dad, you and your wife are
parents and I understand youalso have the blessing of
(20:23):
grandchildren.
So what do you say to yourbeloved grandchildren about some
or all of this?
I mean, you want to leave thema better world, but you also
want them to lean into the worldthat will be theirs, to lean
(20:45):
into the world that will betheirs.
And how do you say, as a wisegrandpa, in age-appropriate ways
, how you want your children tosort of take this baton and run
forward thinking about goodness,thinking about being, just
thinking about beingother-centered and all that?
What do you say to them?
Dr. Franklin (21:03):
being just thinking about being
other-centered and all that,what do you say to them I think
about Rabbi Hillel's wonderfulinjunction that the world is
equally balanced between goodand evil.
So your next act will tip thescale.
The scale, and I want mygrandchildren to appreciate the
(21:27):
power of agency of their action,their choices, even down to the
level of their consumer choices, and how they spend their
dollars, their money, makes adifference in the overall
(21:50):
project of repairing the world.
That wonderful Jewish notion oftikkun olam, that we are called
as moral people and spiritualagents to repair a broken world,
and that's my charge to them,that they have power.
They can make a difference.
Choices matter.
Live aware of that, but alsothink about that interesting
(22:10):
metaphor If there is a balancebetween the forces of good and
evil and you are going to haveyour one vote, your one big
action, ensure that it's on theside of the good, the true, the
right and the beautiful of thegood, the true, the right and
the beautiful.
Bishop Wright (22:33):
Last question, that's wonderful, actually, and
just that image.
You know, what I like aboutthat is that it helps understand
.
You know, Dr King did say youknow, change doesn't roll in on
wheels of inevitability, right,and so we have agency, and so
that, I think, is a, as a, as agrand child, you would hear that
I have agency, that my choicesdo matter.
In addition to being anintellectual, a former
(22:55):
university president and now aprofessor, you're also ordained
in a couple of traditions, in acouple of traditions, and so, as
we wrap up here, I wonder, asyou think about moral leadership
, I wonder what piece ofscripture dances in your mind
(23:19):
about this that calls to you,about this moral leadership that
affirms it for you?
Dr. Franklin (23:21):
Yeah, wow, thank you.
That's a wonderful pastoralquestion and I think the two
points I'd make is remember, aswe meditate on Martin Luther
King through this season, thatKing was a Christian, but he
learned so much of his spiritualwealth and intellectual capital
(23:42):
Martin Luther King utilized wasfrom a non-Christian, from a
Hindu Gandhi, mahatma Gandhi andI think King demonstrates, in
being authentically a matureChristian believer, he's also
able to learn from other greatwisdom traditions, wisdom
(24:07):
traditions.
So I hope everyone in this yearin particular, where there's so
much fear of the other and somuch xenophobia, make it a point
to read something, listen tosomething from outside your
tradition, but then return toyour own tradition and explore
it with new eyes, having visitedacross the street, as it were.
And that's why I like yourquestion and for me, in short,
(24:30):
it would be this interestingpassage in 2 Corinthians 5,
where Paul is writing to thechurch 2 Corinthians 5, 17, and
says if we are in Christ, we arenew creatures, new creation and
old things have passed.
Old things are now new, Newpossibilities are before us, but
(24:51):
bear in mind, we have beengiven the ministry of
reconciliation.
God has reconciled us, which isclosing the gap between humans
and the holy, between humans andthe holy.
And now your role is to is backto that notion of heal the land
(25:13):
, repair creation, or myfavorite three-word definition
of what justice is about isrestore right relationships.
And that's what I read.
We are called to be restorersof right relationships as we
undertake that SecondCorinthians 5 challenge and
(25:34):
invitation of being ministers ofreconciliation.
Bishop Wright (25:40):
Wonderful, wonderful Thanks for joining us.
Thank you for leading us out inthis conversation around moral
leadership for the next coupleof weeks.
Friends, the Reverend Dr RobertFranklin, thank you again,
Dr. Franklin (25:55):
Thank you, Bishop Wright.
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