June 27, 2025 • 20 mins
When we've been hurt or rejected, vengeance may be something we desire. Christian maturity helps us build capacities to defer and fend off the need for vengeance.
In this episode, Melissa and Bishop Wright have a conversation about vengeance. Using Luke 9:51-62, they unpack Jesus' response when his disciples wanted to "rain fire and brimstone" on a Samaritan village that rejected them. Jesus rebukes their desire for vengeance suggesting that vengeance distracts those who have decided to pursue the kingdom of God. Whether we're discussing global conflicts or personal relationships, the space between being triggered and responding represents our opportunity for growth. "Whatever triggers you is trying to set you free," Bishop Wright notes, suggesting our reactions point to places where healing is needed. Listen in for the full conversation.
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Episode Transcript
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Bishop Wright (00:01):
The issue I think in front of us in lots of ways
now is vengeance.
Some people describe the worldas dog-eat-dog, you know, eye
for eye, tooth for tooth, etc.
And I like to think ofChristian maturity really as a
set of practices and a capacityto defer, delay and even fend
(00:23):
off our need for vengeance.
Melissa (00:42):
Welcome to For People.
I'm Melissa Rau, your host, andthis is a conversation inspired
by For Faith, a weekly devotionsent out every Friday.
You can find a link to thisweek's For Faith and a link to
subscribe in the episodedescription.
Howdy Bishop.
Bishop Wright (00:58):
The hostess For the mostest.
Melissa (01:00):
All right, so let's dive deep into this.
I love the name of thisdevotion you call vengeance.
I don't love vengeance, I justlove the name.
It's based off of Luke, chapternine, verses 51 to 62.
It's basically the disciplesare following Jesus into the
(01:20):
Samaritan town and the Samaritantown didn't want to receive
Jesus.
So the Samaritan town and theSamaritan town didn't want to
receive Jesus and they wanted to.
They asked Jesus if they wanted, if he wanted them to rain fire
and brimstone upon their heads.
Bishop Wright (01:34):
Right and consume them.
Melissa (01:36):
Consume them, and so, of course, jesus admonishes them
.
This, of course, is what youcentered your devotion this week
on.
Want to say more.
Bishop Wright (01:45):
Yeah Well, I mean , as we look out at the world
you know, and you read thesestories it's I always like to
challenge myself to findsometimes I do a good job,
sometimes I struggle to find theone word that sort of aptly,
sort of connects what I thinkthe major idea is it's a great
(02:05):
practice actually, if you're aBible reader and especially a
preacher is to look at a lessonand see if you can distill it in
a word.
I had a great teacher inseminary.
He would always ask me, rob, sowhat are you preaching on?
And I would always come in andI'd be so effusive and I'd have
all this.
I'd basically respond to him ina paragraph and he said oh so I
(02:28):
see, you're not quite sure whatyou're preaching on yet, and of
course I walk out of there tailbetween my legs.
But I've come now over theyears, to realize the real
wisdom in that, and so, yeah,that's one of the reasons why I
do a one word distillation ofthis over these last series of
years is because I think there'sa major idea, and oftentimes
(02:50):
it's a word that gets repeatedagain and again in a story.
But you know, looking at theworld, looking at the New York
Times, at the newspapers, wallStreet Journal, whatever paper
we read, looking at the worldand looking at scripture, you
know, the issue, I think, infront of us in lots of ways now
is vengeance.
It is, you know, some peopledescribe the world as dog eat
(03:15):
dog.
You know, eye for eye, toothfor a tooth, et cetera.
And I like to think ofChristian maturity really as a
set of practices and a capacityto defer, delay and even fend
off our need for vengeance.
(03:36):
That would be one indicator ofChristian maturity.
But forget what I say.
I mean here's what the DalaiLama and Desmond Tutu say.
The real secret of freedom,they say, may be in extending
the brief space between stimulusand response.
(03:58):
He goes on to say meditation,and for the Christian we would
say prayer.
He goes on to say meditation,and for the Christian we would
say prayer.
Contemplation seems to elongatethe pause and help expand our
ability to choose our response,or better, choose a response.
And so the disciples are likehey, man, we've been rejected,
jesus, you've been rejected.
We're quite upset about that.
(04:22):
And so it's interesting that thedisciples now want to exercise
power and on other occasionsthey act like they didn't have
any power right and Jesus wasinviting them to exercise power.
But now what they want is theywant to be turned loose to
exercise sort of vengeance, calldown fire from heaven and
consume these people who haverejected them.
(04:44):
And so what I wrote in themeditation is that I think that
what they're doing is they'reexploring Jesus's sort of
capacity for vengeance.
They want to know if vengeanceis a part of how Jesus wants to
respond.
And notice also, it does notseem in the story that there is
(05:07):
a lot of space between theiroffense, them being offended,
and their response.
And you think about that, youthink about us.
In marriages, in relationships,in the world.
We get really caught up inthese loops.
Somebody pokes us, we poke themback and then off, we go to the
(05:28):
races and we don't ever breakthe cycles and then it's just it
ends up being, you know,catastrophic.
Melissa (05:35):
Yeah, I love the book, the Desmond Tutu Dalai Lama book
.
I think it's Finding Joy andHappiness that they kind of
co-wrote together.
Yeah, I love that.
It's a great, great book,highly recommend.
You know, bishop, that pausething is so apt, you know,
taking the time and having thefortitude and the awareness to
(05:58):
know when you've been triggeredinto something.
Maybe Because we just, I don'tknow, sometimes I feel like
people, people want, when theyhurt, they want other people to
hurt.
Bishop Wright (06:09):
Yeah, that's right, and.
Melissa (06:11):
I, you know, it's that meditation, that contemplation,
the prayer that gives people, Ithink, a longer fuse.
Bishop Wright (06:17):
Yeah, you know you're using a word now that's
really popular today.
It's a word I never really grewup with, but you know growing,
you know living now you hear theword trigger a lot, right,
trigger.
And you know I was readingsomething really interesting the
other day about triggers, youknow, and it says whatever
triggers you is trying toactually set you free.
(06:39):
Right, it's an indicator ofwhere you might be bound, where
the flow is obstructed.
And so you know, maybe theinvitation here is that to
notice in this story that Jesuswas not triggered by rejection
in the way that his discipleswere triggered by rejection.
(07:01):
And we might say there wasforbearance there.
We can name all other kinds ofthings, forbearance and
forgiveness.
Maybe Jesus had someunderstanding, maybe Jesus could
empathize with what they mightbe afraid of by welcoming him
and his disciples to theirvillage.
(07:22):
I mean, it's just interestingto me that if you just sort of
click on Jesus a little bit andgo down, even with sort of our
best learning now, you see that,yeah, he may have been
triggered, certainly thedisciples were triggered, but
what you do in triggers, youknow, in that triggering moment,
is the opportunity, invitationfor growth.
(07:43):
And I don't say that, let mejust say because you know we get
on this podcast and I get tosay all kinds of things.
You know I'm not sayingcertainly not that I have this
mastered, and even when theDalai Lama and Desmond Tutu are
talking about it, they're notsaying that they've got it
mastered.
What they're saying is is thatthis is the truth and the
(08:03):
invitation to our better, moreregulated, maybe even more
benevolent selves and that if wewant a better world, a better
household you name it betterorganizations, that somebody and
this is where it may feelunfair to us somebody is going
to have to break the cycle.
Somebody is going to have togrow up, somebody is going to
(08:26):
have to forbear, somebody isgoing to have to turn the other
cheek and forgive, or we justget locked into these reactive
cycles that ultimately, nothinggood happens.
Melissa (09:04):
Yeah, it's like the ping pong match, you know here
and they're off.
They're off to the races, andso what does breaking the cycle
then require, or what does thatlook like to you, bishop?
Bishop Wright (09:29):
Well, I mean again, here's Jesus breaking the
cycle because he doesn't harbor, he doesn't give safe harbor to
vengeance, I mean.
So I think breaking cyclesmeans saying yes to some things
and saying no to some things.
You know, quite practically itis, and I think you know that
quote, I read to you it iselongating, very practically,
elongating the space between ourresponse to triggers or
perceived injuries or rejectionsor whatever the case may be.
(09:50):
I think, you know, we arelooking now out to Los Angeles
and we're seeing, you know, thestreets full of protesters and
we're seeing, you know, thestreets full of protesters.
We're seeing, you know, somechaos, we're seeing some law
enforcement officers' livesbeing put at jeopardy and at the
(10:12):
same time, you know, we'reseeing the response and one
wonders if the response, byinviting National Guard and
Marines, you know, is aproportional response.
And so you know, you know, Iwould hope that we would be able
to find a way to elongateresponses, protecting our law
(10:34):
enforcement officers, protectingproperty at the same time, but
also bringing some sort ofunderstanding.
So I think saying yes iselongating the response.
Saying yes is elongating theresponse, it is trying to
account for lots of nuances, butI also think it's not having
the ego needs that many of ushave.
You know, behind a lot oftriggers is deep pain, and so
(10:54):
what we're trying to do is reactand the thing that is
immediately triggering us isprobably connected to a deep and
historic wound or deep ego needto assert, to overcome, etc.
So I guess you know that soundslike word salad, but I guess
what we're talking about is avery complicated thing that has
(11:15):
everything to do with maturity,right, and it is, and having you
know this is why the Dalai Lama, to be sort of centered down to
where I don't have the evilneed to be over and against you.
I don't have to run roughshodover you, I don't have to
obliterate you Right To be, tobe me.
(11:36):
In fact, I can reject, you know, maybe even what I might
perceive as my right tovengeance.
I think that's what you have todo, and we know that that's
hard, because these things getso full with emotion, right, we
get flooded with emotion, andthen we're off to the races and
again we can talk about bigthings, los Angeles, we can talk
(12:00):
about Gaza, we can talk aboutlots of things.
But you know, you see thisvividly at home and with spouses
and with relatives that youknow trigger us, and there have
been historic hurts and etc.
Etc.
So I think the other thing toois to find a space down the road
(12:21):
to then come again and saysomething to someone.
You know the Gottman Institutetalks a lot about a soft
entering into a legitimatedisagreement, you know.
So the story is incomplete.
We know that Jesus just deniedthe disciples their vengeance
(12:43):
and he decided not toparticipate in it.
But that doesn't mean we justleave things hanging.
There may be an opportunitydown the road the story doesn't
say so but for us down the roadto reenter the wound, the wound
making the offense softer Ithink that's also an indicator
of maturity is is that, you know, week, three days, two days,
(13:06):
whenever it is cooler, headsprevail.
We buy a cup of coffee and sayyou know, the other day was
really, really hard for me.
I was, in fact, I was reallyoverwhelmed.
I want you to know that Iworked really hard not to react
but just to listen so that Icould give you my better
response.
And here's my better response.
You know this is hard stuff,but I mean, I think what good is
(13:31):
faith if it doesn't invite usinto more capacity right and
show us a way forward wherethings are really difficult for
us.
So what we want to do is wewant to grow.
Maybe the disciples learned thatday that.
And Jesus goes on to say youknow, this is really about the
kingdom.
So he puts kingdom on this.
(13:53):
So kingdom is always with us,opportunity for kingdom is
always with us.
Kingdom is small sometimes.
Kingdom isn't a yes, kingdomisn't a no, kingdom is
forbearance.
You know all these sort ofthings.
So it's amazing that he holdsthese two ideas together.
So these little practices thatwe can take up with each other
actually release and revealkingdom.
(14:14):
And Jesus just was not going tobe distracted that day.
He sticks to the plan.
Melissa (14:20):
You know, I took a Kingian nonviolence seminar way
back when and I learnedsomething interesting that when
there's conflict, typicallyconflict escalates the closer
one is in relationship toanother.
So the more people have incommon, the greater the risk for
(14:42):
harm and conflict and badfeelings.
Which is kind of ironic, if youthink about it, because we talk
about our enemies being so faraway.
We don't often know them.
But actually the harm one cando to a person they supposedly
love or have a lot in commonwith is exponentially increased
the closer ones are together.
(15:02):
I don't know what to do aboutthat, bishop.
When it comes to vengeance,really what we're talking about
is healing.
Triggers are easily triggeredbecause there's unprocessed
damage or woundedness right, Ithink, at least.
Bishop Wright (15:17):
No, I think that's right.
You know, what's interesting is, that is you.
You know, what I love about theBible still is is that if you,
if you click on an idea and thenyou decide to sort of you know,
go deep in it, you know it, italways comes out on the side of
love and freedom, right?
So, however you enter into thestory, it always ends up with
God inviting us to take uppractices, words, behaviors,
(15:41):
non-behaviors that will lead usto freedom.
And so one of the things thatvengeance does is that it really
makes you slave to the one whocommitted the offense, and so
your response is actuallydictated by the very person you
say that you object to, that hasoffended you, etc.
And so you know, the disciplesare bopping along Jesus, those
(16:02):
guys are doing things and then,all of a sudden, now they want
to take this detour and dovengeance and consume, you know,
consume a village, etc.
Well, that was not part of thestrategy, but because they
decided to handle the offense ina particular way.
Now they're off mission, right?
And so you know, what Jesus inmany ways does is to keep them
(16:22):
free, right?
So we're not defined by thisrejection.
The rejection happened.
Yes, we know that we're notputting our head in the sand
about it, but we have, I mean,think about it.
It's real agency, it's realfreedom.
I have the freedom and theagency to decide how I will
handle that rejection right Now.
This is just not high-mindedtalk.
I mean, you put this stuff inpractice and it accrues to joy,
(16:46):
right?
So I can't be knocked off mymark.
And when you meet these kinds ofpeople, I mean this is what's
so wonderful about Atlanta andmy time here is I met all these
amazing civil rights leaders whoyou know.
For them, it wasn't just aboutconversation and about emotional
triggers.
These people were beat over theheads, they were thrown in jail
, they were abused, lifethreatened, et cetera, et cetera
(17:09):
.
And how did they stay centeredis an extraordinary question.
And to get to meet some of themand to speak to them and they
just they believe that thestakes were so high.
And so what they didn't want todo was not only respond
violence for violence, but theydidn't want to lose what they
thought was their primary value,and that was to walk close to
(17:31):
Jesus.
And so for them, you know, youknow, these folks who were doing
violence and et cetera, etcetera to them, were really
testing their resolve to staycentered on the kingdom, right?
You know the old song noturning back, no turning back,
right.
And so to me they bundled thebest of this idea, which is that
(17:51):
these things are tests.
These things are, you know, inmany ways for our ego needs,
delicious invitations todistraction.
And yet you and I wouldn't behere having the conversations
that we're having in thiscountry, and this country would
be so much less, if they werenot able really to forego a need
(18:18):
for vengeance.
I mean, just think about that,think about the genius of the
non-violent movement.
And this is my real hope now,even as our country is being
sort of in the throes of a verydifficult moment in Los Angeles.
I'm all for the protests and I'mall for making the point.
(18:38):
That's part of our right asAmericans.
But to keep it clean, to keepit nonviolent I think you know
Dr King would say is to take themoral high ground and it is to
prove the better point.
And yes, some people will saythat rage and riot is the
(18:59):
language of the unheard.
I understand that.
But at the same time, you knowthe movement, for it to yield
the better fruits, has got tostay nonviolent and it's got to
be above vengeance.
Melissa (19:12):
Well, Bishop, thank you so much for your wisdom on
vengeance.
It's not mine to be had oryours, is it?
Well, that's it, mine to be hador yours is it.
Bishop Wright (19:21):
If we're truly calling Christ, that's it.
And let me say this I knowwe're wrapping up, but let me
just say this too, because youjust named something that's
critical here.
So who does vengeance belong toRight?
And so there's a freedominvitation too.
So if I can just say well,vengeance belongs to God, we'll
let God sort that out.
Then I might end up just alittle bit freer.
Melissa (19:42):
Indeed Thanks be to God for that, bishop.
Thank you and thank you,listeners, for tuning in to For
People.
You can follow us on Instagramand Facebook at Bishop Rob
Wright, or by visiting www.
forpeople.
digital.
Please subscribe, leave areview and we'll be back with
you next week.
The issue I think in front of us in lots of ways
now is vengeance.
Some people describe the worldas dog-eat-dog, you know, eye
for eye, tooth for tooth, etc.
And I like to think ofChristian maturity really as a
set of practices and a capacityto defer, delay and even fend
(00:23):
off our need for vengeance.
Melissa (00:42):
Welcome to For People.
I'm Melissa Rau, your host, andthis is a conversation inspired
by For Faith, a weekly devotionsent out every Friday.
You can find a link to thisweek's For Faith and a link to
subscribe in the episodedescription.
Howdy Bishop.
Bishop Wright (00:58):
The hostess For the mostest.
Melissa (01:00):
All right, so let's dive deep into this.
I love the name of thisdevotion you call vengeance.
I don't love vengeance, I justlove the name.
It's based off of Luke, chapternine, verses 51 to 62.
It's basically the disciplesare following Jesus into the
(01:20):
Samaritan town and the Samaritantown didn't want to receive
Jesus.
So the Samaritan town and theSamaritan town didn't want to
receive Jesus and they wanted to.
They asked Jesus if they wanted, if he wanted them to rain fire
and brimstone upon their heads.
Bishop Wright (01:34):
Right and consume them.
Melissa (01:36):
Consume them, and so, of course, jesus admonishes them
.
This, of course, is what youcentered your devotion this week
on.
Want to say more.
Bishop Wright (01:45):
Yeah Well, I mean , as we look out at the world
you know, and you read thesestories it's I always like to
challenge myself to findsometimes I do a good job,
sometimes I struggle to find theone word that sort of aptly,
sort of connects what I thinkthe major idea is it's a great
(02:05):
practice actually, if you're aBible reader and especially a
preacher is to look at a lessonand see if you can distill it in
a word.
I had a great teacher inseminary.
He would always ask me, rob, sowhat are you preaching on?
And I would always come in andI'd be so effusive and I'd have
all this.
I'd basically respond to him ina paragraph and he said oh so I
(02:28):
see, you're not quite sure whatyou're preaching on yet, and of
course I walk out of there tailbetween my legs.
But I've come now over theyears, to realize the real
wisdom in that, and so, yeah,that's one of the reasons why I
do a one word distillation ofthis over these last series of
years is because I think there'sa major idea, and oftentimes
(02:50):
it's a word that gets repeatedagain and again in a story.
But you know, looking at theworld, looking at the New York
Times, at the newspapers, wallStreet Journal, whatever paper
we read, looking at the worldand looking at scripture, you
know, the issue, I think, infront of us in lots of ways now
is vengeance.
It is, you know, some peopledescribe the world as dog eat
(03:15):
dog.
You know, eye for eye, toothfor a tooth, et cetera.
And I like to think ofChristian maturity really as a
set of practices and a capacityto defer, delay and even fend
off our need for vengeance.
(03:36):
That would be one indicator ofChristian maturity.
But forget what I say.
I mean here's what the DalaiLama and Desmond Tutu say.
The real secret of freedom,they say, may be in extending
the brief space between stimulusand response.
(03:58):
He goes on to say meditation,and for the Christian we would
say prayer.
He goes on to say meditation,and for the Christian we would
say prayer.
Contemplation seems to elongatethe pause and help expand our
ability to choose our response,or better, choose a response.
And so the disciples are likehey, man, we've been rejected,
jesus, you've been rejected.
We're quite upset about that.
(04:22):
And so it's interesting that thedisciples now want to exercise
power and on other occasionsthey act like they didn't have
any power right and Jesus wasinviting them to exercise power.
But now what they want is theywant to be turned loose to
exercise sort of vengeance, calldown fire from heaven and
consume these people who haverejected them.
(04:44):
And so what I wrote in themeditation is that I think that
what they're doing is they'reexploring Jesus's sort of
capacity for vengeance.
They want to know if vengeanceis a part of how Jesus wants to
respond.
And notice also, it does notseem in the story that there is
(05:07):
a lot of space between theiroffense, them being offended,
and their response.
And you think about that, youthink about us.
In marriages, in relationships,in the world.
We get really caught up inthese loops.
Somebody pokes us, we poke themback and then off, we go to the
(05:28):
races and we don't ever breakthe cycles and then it's just it
ends up being, you know,catastrophic.
Melissa (05:35):
Yeah, I love the book, the Desmond Tutu Dalai Lama book
.
I think it's Finding Joy andHappiness that they kind of
co-wrote together.
Yeah, I love that.
It's a great, great book,highly recommend.
You know, bishop, that pausething is so apt, you know,
taking the time and having thefortitude and the awareness to
(05:58):
know when you've been triggeredinto something.
Maybe Because we just, I don'tknow, sometimes I feel like
people, people want, when theyhurt, they want other people to
hurt.
Bishop Wright (06:09):
Yeah, that's right, and.
Melissa (06:11):
I, you know, it's that meditation, that contemplation,
the prayer that gives people, Ithink, a longer fuse.
Bishop Wright (06:17):
Yeah, you know you're using a word now that's
really popular today.
It's a word I never really grewup with, but you know growing,
you know living now you hear theword trigger a lot, right,
trigger.
And you know I was readingsomething really interesting the
other day about triggers, youknow, and it says whatever
triggers you is trying toactually set you free.
(06:39):
Right, it's an indicator ofwhere you might be bound, where
the flow is obstructed.
And so you know, maybe theinvitation here is that to
notice in this story that Jesuswas not triggered by rejection
in the way that his discipleswere triggered by rejection.
(07:01):
And we might say there wasforbearance there.
We can name all other kinds ofthings, forbearance and
forgiveness.
Maybe Jesus had someunderstanding, maybe Jesus could
empathize with what they mightbe afraid of by welcoming him
and his disciples to theirvillage.
(07:22):
I mean, it's just interestingto me that if you just sort of
click on Jesus a little bit andgo down, even with sort of our
best learning now, you see that,yeah, he may have been
triggered, certainly thedisciples were triggered, but
what you do in triggers, youknow, in that triggering moment,
is the opportunity, invitationfor growth.
(07:43):
And I don't say that, let mejust say because you know we get
on this podcast and I get tosay all kinds of things.
You know I'm not sayingcertainly not that I have this
mastered, and even when theDalai Lama and Desmond Tutu are
talking about it, they're notsaying that they've got it
mastered.
What they're saying is is thatthis is the truth and the
(08:03):
invitation to our better, moreregulated, maybe even more
benevolent selves and that if wewant a better world, a better
household you name it betterorganizations, that somebody and
this is where it may feelunfair to us somebody is going
to have to break the cycle.
Somebody is going to have togrow up, somebody is going to
(08:26):
have to forbear, somebody isgoing to have to turn the other
cheek and forgive, or we justget locked into these reactive
cycles that ultimately, nothinggood happens.
Melissa (09:04):
Yeah, it's like the ping pong match, you know here
and they're off.
They're off to the races, andso what does breaking the cycle
then require, or what does thatlook like to you, bishop?
Bishop Wright (09:29):
Well, I mean again, here's Jesus breaking the
cycle because he doesn't harbor, he doesn't give safe harbor to
vengeance, I mean.
So I think breaking cyclesmeans saying yes to some things
and saying no to some things.
You know, quite practically itis, and I think you know that
quote, I read to you it iselongating, very practically,
elongating the space between ourresponse to triggers or
perceived injuries or rejectionsor whatever the case may be.
(09:50):
I think, you know, we arelooking now out to Los Angeles
and we're seeing, you know, thestreets full of protesters and
we're seeing, you know, thestreets full of protesters.
We're seeing, you know, somechaos, we're seeing some law
enforcement officers' livesbeing put at jeopardy and at the
(10:12):
same time, you know, we'reseeing the response and one
wonders if the response, byinviting National Guard and
Marines, you know, is aproportional response.
And so you know, you know, Iwould hope that we would be able
to find a way to elongateresponses, protecting our law
(10:34):
enforcement officers, protectingproperty at the same time, but
also bringing some sort ofunderstanding.
So I think saying yes iselongating the response.
Saying yes is elongating theresponse, it is trying to
account for lots of nuances, butI also think it's not having
the ego needs that many of ushave.
You know, behind a lot oftriggers is deep pain, and so
(10:54):
what we're trying to do is reactand the thing that is
immediately triggering us isprobably connected to a deep and
historic wound or deep ego needto assert, to overcome, etc.
So I guess you know that soundslike word salad, but I guess
what we're talking about is avery complicated thing that has
(11:15):
everything to do with maturity,right, and it is, and having you
know this is why the Dalai Lama, to be sort of centered down to
where I don't have the evilneed to be over and against you.
I don't have to run roughshodover you, I don't have to
obliterate you Right To be, tobe me.
(11:36):
In fact, I can reject, you know, maybe even what I might
perceive as my right tovengeance.
I think that's what you have todo, and we know that that's
hard, because these things getso full with emotion, right, we
get flooded with emotion, andthen we're off to the races and
again we can talk about bigthings, los Angeles, we can talk
(12:00):
about Gaza, we can talk aboutlots of things.
But you know, you see thisvividly at home and with spouses
and with relatives that youknow trigger us, and there have
been historic hurts and etc.
Etc.
So I think the other thing toois to find a space down the road
(12:21):
to then come again and saysomething to someone.
You know the Gottman Institutetalks a lot about a soft
entering into a legitimatedisagreement, you know.
So the story is incomplete.
We know that Jesus just deniedthe disciples their vengeance
(12:43):
and he decided not toparticipate in it.
But that doesn't mean we justleave things hanging.
There may be an opportunitydown the road the story doesn't
say so but for us down the roadto reenter the wound, the wound
making the offense softer Ithink that's also an indicator
of maturity is is that, you know, week, three days, two days,
(13:06):
whenever it is cooler, headsprevail.
We buy a cup of coffee and sayyou know, the other day was
really, really hard for me.
I was, in fact, I was reallyoverwhelmed.
I want you to know that Iworked really hard not to react
but just to listen so that Icould give you my better
response.
And here's my better response.
You know this is hard stuff,but I mean, I think what good is
(13:31):
faith if it doesn't invite usinto more capacity right and
show us a way forward wherethings are really difficult for
us.
So what we want to do is wewant to grow.
Maybe the disciples learned thatday that.
And Jesus goes on to say youknow, this is really about the
kingdom.
So he puts kingdom on this.
(13:53):
So kingdom is always with us,opportunity for kingdom is
always with us.
Kingdom is small sometimes.
Kingdom isn't a yes, kingdomisn't a no, kingdom is
forbearance.
You know all these sort ofthings.
So it's amazing that he holdsthese two ideas together.
So these little practices thatwe can take up with each other
actually release and revealkingdom.
(14:14):
And Jesus just was not going tobe distracted that day.
He sticks to the plan.
Melissa (14:20):
You know, I took a Kingian nonviolence seminar way
back when and I learnedsomething interesting that when
there's conflict, typicallyconflict escalates the closer
one is in relationship toanother.
So the more people have incommon, the greater the risk for
(14:42):
harm and conflict and badfeelings.
Which is kind of ironic, if youthink about it, because we talk
about our enemies being so faraway.
We don't often know them.
But actually the harm one cando to a person they supposedly
love or have a lot in commonwith is exponentially increased
the closer ones are together.
(15:02):
I don't know what to do aboutthat, bishop.
When it comes to vengeance,really what we're talking about
is healing.
Triggers are easily triggeredbecause there's unprocessed
damage or woundedness right, Ithink, at least.
Bishop Wright (15:17):
No, I think that's right.
You know, what's interesting is, that is you.
You know, what I love about theBible still is is that if you,
if you click on an idea and thenyou decide to sort of you know,
go deep in it, you know it, italways comes out on the side of
love and freedom, right?
So, however you enter into thestory, it always ends up with
God inviting us to take uppractices, words, behaviors,
(15:41):
non-behaviors that will lead usto freedom.
And so one of the things thatvengeance does is that it really
makes you slave to the one whocommitted the offense, and so
your response is actuallydictated by the very person you
say that you object to, that hasoffended you, etc.
And so you know, the disciplesare bopping along Jesus, those
(16:02):
guys are doing things and then,all of a sudden, now they want
to take this detour and dovengeance and consume, you know,
consume a village, etc.
Well, that was not part of thestrategy, but because they
decided to handle the offense ina particular way.
Now they're off mission, right?
And so you know, what Jesus inmany ways does is to keep them
(16:22):
free, right?
So we're not defined by thisrejection.
The rejection happened.
Yes, we know that we're notputting our head in the sand
about it, but we have, I mean,think about it.
It's real agency, it's realfreedom.
I have the freedom and theagency to decide how I will
handle that rejection right Now.
This is just not high-mindedtalk.
I mean, you put this stuff inpractice and it accrues to joy,
(16:46):
right?
So I can't be knocked off mymark.
And when you meet these kinds ofpeople, I mean this is what's
so wonderful about Atlanta andmy time here is I met all these
amazing civil rights leaders whoyou know.
For them, it wasn't just aboutconversation and about emotional
triggers.
These people were beat over theheads, they were thrown in jail
, they were abused, lifethreatened, et cetera, et cetera
(17:09):
.
And how did they stay centeredis an extraordinary question.
And to get to meet some of themand to speak to them and they
just they believe that thestakes were so high.
And so what they didn't want todo was not only respond
violence for violence, but theydidn't want to lose what they
thought was their primary value,and that was to walk close to
(17:31):
Jesus.
And so for them, you know, youknow, these folks who were doing
violence and et cetera, etcetera to them, were really
testing their resolve to staycentered on the kingdom, right?
You know the old song noturning back, no turning back,
right.
And so to me they bundled thebest of this idea, which is that
(17:51):
these things are tests.
These things are, you know, inmany ways for our ego needs,
delicious invitations todistraction.
And yet you and I wouldn't behere having the conversations
that we're having in thiscountry, and this country would
be so much less, if they werenot able really to forego a need
(18:18):
for vengeance.
I mean, just think about that,think about the genius of the
non-violent movement.
And this is my real hope now,even as our country is being
sort of in the throes of a verydifficult moment in Los Angeles.
I'm all for the protests and I'mall for making the point.
(18:38):
That's part of our right asAmericans.
But to keep it clean, to keepit nonviolent I think you know
Dr King would say is to take themoral high ground and it is to
prove the better point.
And yes, some people will saythat rage and riot is the
(18:59):
language of the unheard.
I understand that.
But at the same time, you knowthe movement, for it to yield
the better fruits, has got tostay nonviolent and it's got to
be above vengeance.
Melissa (19:12):
Well, Bishop, thank you so much for your wisdom on
vengeance.
It's not mine to be had oryours, is it?
Well, that's it, mine to be hador yours is it.
Bishop Wright (19:21):
If we're truly calling Christ, that's it.
And let me say this I knowwe're wrapping up, but let me
just say this too, because youjust named something that's
critical here.
So who does vengeance belong toRight?
And so there's a freedominvitation too.
So if I can just say well,vengeance belongs to God, we'll
let God sort that out.
Then I might end up just alittle bit freer.
Melissa (19:42):
Indeed Thanks be to God for that, bishop.
Thank you and thank you,listeners, for tuning in to For
People.
You can follow us on Instagramand Facebook at Bishop Rob
Wright, or by visiting www.
forpeople.
digital.
Please subscribe, leave areview and we'll be back with
you next week.
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