EP 10: Empowering Parents: Strategies for Career Flexibility and Family Balance

What’s the secret to balancing a demanding career and a thriving family life? Join us as we uncover the answers with Dr. Francine Harper, a Licensed Mental Health Counselor, Board Certified Behavior Analyst, Professor, Wife and mother of three neurodivergent sons. In our candid conversation, Francine shares her journey from high-powered executive roles to flexible positions that accommodate her family's unique needs. She provides actionable strategies for prioritizing responsibilities, maintaining mental health, and fostering open communication within the family.

Ever wondered how to teach essential life skills to teenagers with disabilities? Francine opens up about her personal experiences, detailing the importance of family collaboration, structured environments, and empathetic parenting. She highlights her approach to nurturing independence in her children, supported by her husband and other family members. From teaching coping skills to fostering self-advocacy, Francine's practical advice is both inspirational and deeply insightful for any parent navigating similar challenges.

Considering a career change or looking to enhance your parenting approach? This episode is packed with valuable insights into balancing professional ambitions with family responsibilities. Francine discusses the nuances of career flexibility, the benefits of leaving high-stress roles, and the importance of supportive dialogue between partners. 

Additionally, we explore the concept of Black liberation in parenting and the transformative power of Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT). Whether you're a working parent or simply seeking personal growth, our conversation with Francine Harper offers a wealth of wisdom and encouragement to help you make meaningful changes in your life.

⏰ Chapter Markers ⏰
0:00 - Juggling Family & Professional Responsibilities
13:43 - Parenting a Teenager With Disabilities
21:07 - Balancing Career and Motherhood
33:21 - Navigating Career Changes With Family
46:44 - Reevaluating Career Goals and Parenting
52:06 - Motherhood Challenges and Strategies
1:00:05 - Teaching Children Coping Skills
1:07:31 - Parenting With Self-Advocacy and Respect
1:18:13 - Redefining Parenting Through Black Liberation
1:25:06 - Career Insights and Parenting Tips

➣ For Guest Appearances, Sponsorship & Bookings: [e-mail]
➣ Visit our official website: https://www.ForShxttyMoms.com

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
This episode of FSM is brought to you by Fidelity
Behavioral Alliance, your numberone source for behavior change.
Fidelity Behavioral Alliancecreates behavior change programs
for schools, parents andorganizations looking to reduce
problem behaviors and improveperformance outcomes.

(00:20):
Find out more atwwwfidelitybehavioralliancecom.
If you would like to sponsor anepisode of FSM, email us at
shitmom at gmailcom.
That's S-H-X-T-M-O-M atgmailcom.

(00:42):
M-o-m at gmailcom.
It's time to put the kids tobed, so y'all get ready for
another episode of For ShittyMoms.
Hello everyone, and welcome toanother episode of FSM.
I'm your host, deloren, andtoday we have a very special
guest here from the SunshineState.

(01:05):
As always, I am going to allowthe guests to introduce
themselves and then I'll give alittle background information on
how this interview came about.
So, without any further ado,our special guest today is
Francine, and you can tell me.
What do you go by?

(01:26):
What do you prefer, dr Francine, dr Harper, francine.

Speaker 2 (01:31):
Francine is fine for our interview today.

Speaker 1 (01:35):
Okay, so thank you so much for joining me and I'm
going to pass the mic over toyou and let you go ahead and
introduce yourself.
You're going to just tell theaudience who you are, your
career, your background, yourcredentials, things like that,
and that'll kind of guide ourinterview today.

Speaker 2 (01:57):
Okay, well, hello.
My name is Dr Francine Harper.
I am a licensed mental healthcounselor and a board certified
behavior analyst.
I'm a multiple business ownerand a adjunct college professor
as well.

Speaker 1 (02:15):
Absolutely and, as always, typical FSM fashion.
I like to give a littlebackground information.
Dr Harper, dr Francine and I,we actually were introduced to
one another during our doctoralprograms.
During those research coursesyou kind of take the classes

(02:38):
with everyone.
So we were the same cohort andwe really hit it off.
We connected with one anotherand pretty much stayed in touch
and just our friendship juststarted to flourish.
From there we supported eachother through the program, kind
of bounced ideas off of eachother, and we've had the

(03:00):
pleasure of watching one anothergrow academically,
professionally, personally, allof the above.
So I am so thankful to have youon the show and I am really
looking forward to where thingsgo today.
You gave us your background inall of the different areas that

(03:24):
you work in.
So I want to kind of dive intothat a little bit and have you
give us an idea of what that'slike.
But then, before we jump intothat, give us an idea and some
insight into your family life.
What does that look like?

Speaker 2 (03:48):
family life.
What does that look like?
Okay, I am a wife and themother of three.
I have an adult stepson, I havetwo minor children at home.
I have a 16 year old that hasautism moderate to severe autism
who will always need support,and I have a 13 year old son as
well.
So I'm the mom of three boystotal and, as with any mom, it's

(04:12):
a juggle.
It's about prioritizing andjuggling and making sure that
everyone's needs are met.

Speaker 1 (04:25):
And it's really important.
I really wanted to highlighteverything that you do
professionally.
And then I also wanted to shedlight on your family life,
because you have a lot on yourplate, and I say that just to
any of our listeners.
You know, to them it may soundlike a lot, to them it may sound

(04:48):
like a lot.
As someone who has a littlemore insight, who knows you a
little more than just ouraverage listener, I can attest
to it that it is a lot.
So today I really want to hearfrom you personally and then
I'll probably ask youprofessionally as well.
When I do the interviews, whenI have the shows, I really want

(05:09):
the listeners to get a feel forthe individual right.
But because you have such aspecialized background, I feel
like I am going to havequestions.
Our listeners are going to havequestions as well.
So today's show, I'd like tojust present it as you know,
whatever comes up, whatever thequestions are, how would you

(05:31):
answer it personally?
And then how would you answerthat professionally?
Just, I think it'll be a littlefun to go behind the scenes.
We don't always get mentalhealth professionals and you
know, mental health is a hottopic.
It's not as taboo as it used tobe.
It's actually encouraged forpeople to discuss those topics

(05:53):
now, whereas before, a few yearsago, that was something that
was considered really private,right, and if you had questions,
you really didn't talk topeople about it.
You probably didn't want to bejudged by it, and now I feel
like we have a platform where,if something comes up, if we are

(06:16):
experiencing something or wehave experienced something,
maybe there's a chance that oneof the listeners is going
through the same thing, so maybeyou can shed some light on it
personally and how you manageyourself as a mom and a
professional.
Okay, all right.
So as far as your occupation isconcerned, give us a day in the

(06:39):
life of what does that looklike for you?
A?

Speaker 2 (06:42):
day in the life of Francine.
Well, I am up between 4.30 and5 am every morning.
I began prepping for the kidstheir breakfast in the morning.
Pretty much every day they geta hot breakfast.
A lot of people tell me I'mcrazy for that, but I do get up
and I prepare breakfast for themin the morning.

(07:04):
I get them up, I preparebreakfast for them in the
morning, I get them up, they getready for school.
My oldest son goes to schoolwith my husband, who works at
the high school that he attends.
I then transport my younger sonto school and then I go to work
.
I also work for my local schooldistrict as a behavior
specialist consultant and I'mthere from 8 to 4.30.

(07:28):
A typical week.
On a Monday or a Tuesday I comehome.
I may see three or four clientsmental health clients on Monday
.
Tuesday evenings I may alsomeet with some doctoral students
.
Wednesdays are my free day,which means I do nothing but
come home and prepare dinner forthe kids.
Thursdays generally I teach alive class for master's students

(07:54):
, and Fridays is another freeday where no one else gets my
time but my kids.
Saturday mornings I typicallymay see three clients and after
that it's all family time.
Sunday church family timepreparing for the week.

Speaker 1 (08:18):
So it's busy.
My schedule is booked, jampacked all week.
Oh my gosh.
Yes, and you say that like Ican see you, the listeners,
can't you say it with a smile onyour face?
That is a lot, and I just wantto clarify.
So the behavior.
Specialist position that's yourfull time district.

Speaker 2 (08:46):
I do a lot of trainings and professional
learning opportunities forstaffs.
If there are any behaviors thatthey feel that may need to be
looked at from my area ofexpertise, then I may be called
out to go to a school to assistother behavior analysts or to
provide on-site support for thestaff and attend meetings give
some feedback on how they shouldproceed.

Speaker 1 (09:06):
Okay and then?
So after you finish that job,then you go into the other jobs
on like either your teaching Ijust want to clarify for the
listeners you're either teachingin the evenings or you are
seeing patient.
Do you call them patients orclients?

Speaker 2 (09:24):
Clients.

Speaker 1 (09:25):
Okay, and then you see clients like your mental
health clients after a full dayof work.
I just want to clarify that forthe listeners, because all of
this is happening in addition toyou juggling the regular nine
to five.

Speaker 2 (09:40):
So that is correct, okay.
That is correct, but I do haveto clarify that on Mondays and
Tuesdays I typically don't haveany responsibilities with the
kids.
There's supposed to be all myhusband's responsibilities, but
I will if I have time.
I will cook a quick meal somenights, but if not, it's all on
him.

Speaker 1 (09:59):
Okay, gotcha, and that was going to be my next
question, gotcha, and that wasgoing to be my next question.
So it sounds like you'reextremely organized to have this
schedule in place.
And then it also sounds likeyou and your husband kind of tag
team together with this, withthe schedule.

Speaker 2 (10:19):
Yes, we have to coordinate or it won't work.
It won't work for either of usto coordinate or it won't work.

Speaker 1 (10:26):
Okay, it won't work for either of us.
Okay, and that's important too,sometimes just getting ideas on
how to manage yourself a littlebetter.
I know I'm always looking forthat and for the listeners if
there is anyone out there I knowsome people are like, oh my
gosh, I heard your show.
That mom does so much.
I can't do half of what shedoes.

(10:47):
But sometimes I'd like to pointout that we're not always doing
these things by ourselves,right, you have to kind of tag
somebody else in, whether it's agrandparent, a spouse, a
relative Sometimes in order toget all those things done.
You may not be able to doeverything on your own, and I

(11:10):
don't want anyone like beatingthemselves up if they can't do
all of those things, because youdo have a support system as
well.
So it's not just you doing allthese things and that's still.
It's still a a lot.
So how does how does that workwith your husband?
Is he like, okay, I got it.
Or is he like, slow down, don'tdo anything else?

(11:32):
Like how does that dynamic work?

Speaker 2 (11:36):
I think, because he's just as active as I am outside
of the home with he's in school.
He has some private clientshimself because he's in the
behavioral realm as well.
So we just balance.
It's not about a slow down,it's about okay, we need to get
our schedules coordinated andevery once in a while we have to

(11:58):
change our schedules or alterthem so that we can make sure
that we're both taken care ofand I do have family support if
I need it.
My mom is local If I need, ifthere's a teacher work day and
me and him both have to work,she comes and watches the kids.
In the past, when my kids wereyounger and my son was in

(12:20):
therapy, without my sister'ssupport I could have gotten
nothing done, because she wouldtake the school, she would
transport to therapy, she'd pickup from school.
So it's about knowing when toask for help, when you need help
.
And even with my kids beingolder, it's like, okay, they
have something that they have todo to contribute to the house

(12:42):
to help us.
So even my 16 year old that hasautism, he has responsibilities
.
It may be putting the water inthe refrigerator or taking out
the trash, and the same with my13 year old.
I may have to ask him, say hey,I need your help.
Can you do X, y and Z so thatthey're not completely dependent

(13:02):
on me all the time?

Speaker 1 (13:05):
Okay and give us a little insight.
Sometimes I think right now,with the interviews that we've
done, we maybe have spoken tomaybe one person with a child
with special needs.
So how does that look?
Give us some insight intomanaging everything that you

(13:26):
have on your plate and then achild with special needs.
How does that work?
How do you make it work?
What does that look?

Speaker 2 (13:35):
like, has a lot more independent living skills.
It's a lot easier than when hewas younger, and I think and I
have to say this because Iunderstand that a lot of parents
are in survival mode, workingin the field and working with

(13:58):
kids with disabilities, andthey're just trying to get
through their day we had to makesure that we taught Ethan
certain skills so that it wouldmake our lives easier.
You know, we do monitor becausehe is Ethan.
I call him shady baby, eventhough he's not a baby, because
if you are busy and if he canget away with something, he's

(14:18):
going to get away with it.
So we do monitor, but I canhave sessions and at home in my
office, and he knows, if thisdoor is closed, not to knock on
the door or to keep the noisedown.
On occasion when I've said, hey, I need you to be quiet, if he

(14:39):
didn't want to be quiet, he'llgo to my bedroom on the other
side of the house and lay in mybed and look at TV there.
So it really was about teachingEthan some skills that every
child needs to learn so he canshower independent.
He can take care of most of hisADLs independently.
So what it looks like is some,maybe some verbal prompts for

(15:01):
him, like okay, it's time to getup and he knows his routine, so
he'll do it.
Um, but he is a little what wecall in the aba realm prompt
dependent on me to.
So he'll wait for me, because Ido escort him to the bathroom,
make sure he gets started andthen I walk away okay.
So really the only difference Iwould say with another teenager

(15:27):
than with ethan is just thoseverbal prompts to tell him what
he needs to do next, because heunderstands everything and it's
just being a little morecautious in reference to safety
issues.
So I don't let him use thestove.
We're in the process of gettingready to teach him how to use
the microwave to heat, makepopcorn and things like that.

(15:50):
So I think it takes extraplanning as far as he's
concerned, but compared to somefamilies that I know, it's not a
big difference with having himaround.

Speaker 1 (16:03):
Okay, and I'm just sitting here listening as you
describe everything that he'sdoing, and to some people that
sounds like the dream, right?
If you have a kid with specialneeds and they're able to
achieve that level ofindependence to where, as a
parent, you just need to checkin from time to time, that's

(16:24):
amazing.
Even if you have a kid whodoesn't have any special needs,
that's awesome.
That you all are to the pointwhere you just kind of check in
to see if he needs a littlesupport and then you can still
do other things around the houseif you need to, that is amazing
.
How did you get to that point?

Speaker 2 (16:48):
I think.
Well, you know, I credit a lotof that to my husband.
My husband has worked and hashad a business working with
adults and kids withintellectual disabilities before
I met him.
So when it came to us having akid that has autism, that has an
intellectual disability, Icredit him because I wasn't in

(17:08):
the field, that wasn't my areauntil after I had him.
So just I credit him withmaking sure that we let him do
things for himself, becauseoftentimes parents are that
hindrance, because it's like,nope, I'm just going to do it,
it's easier.
And some things I did dobecause it was easier and we

(17:28):
needed to get out of the houseat a certain time and I was able
to back off from that and it'slike, okay, I need you to do
this and I would walk away,because if I walk away he would
do it Okay.

Speaker 1 (17:40):
Now, how does that work?

Speaker 2 (17:45):
Because you say you're a mom of three boys.
My oldest son is an adult.
He is a long distance truckdriver and he left home at 18
pretty much and started schoolthat didn't work out for him and
then was able to secure avariety of very well paying jobs
was able to secure a variety ofvery well-paying jobs.

(18:05):
He is married, so he has hisown family, and so we see him
occasionally, because he is allover the country right now
driving.

Speaker 1 (18:21):
Oh, wow, okay.

Speaker 2 (18:21):
Okay.
And then you have another son.
That's two.
Now you have another son I have, yeah.
So my youngest son is Emery.
He is also neurodiverse, he hasADHD, but you wouldn't know it.
He is a high achieving student.
He's a musician, he plays theFrench horn and the trumpet.
So he is, he's very intelligent, very bright.

(18:42):
And let's see, what else can Isay about Emory?
He is, he's going to make surethat if he has to do something,
his brother has to do it too.
So that's another reason whyEthan is so independent, because
if he has to put water in therefrigerator, then he'll tell

(19:02):
you it's Ethan's turn next.
Oh, wow, okay.
So they really bounce off ofeach other, because if Ethan
sees Emory doing something, he'sgoing to want to do it, or he's
going to at least try it.

Speaker 1 (19:14):
Oh cool.

Speaker 2 (19:15):
Okay.
So I think our family balancesout pretty well.
They both look out for eachother and they have a pretty
good relationship.
Ethan is.
He's verbal, but not as verbalas we would want him to be, as
far as I'm not going to use theABA lingo, but he, the

(19:35):
intraverbals I guess I am goingto use it aren't where we would
want them to be, so it's notconversational when you're
talking to him, but he candefinitely tell you what he
wants and he tells his brotherall the time get out of my room,
no, leave me alone, Stop, Putthat down.
So he does talk.
So it's functional.
It's very functional.

(19:57):
It's very functional.

Speaker 1 (19:59):
Okay, awesome.
So with everything that youjust described, how do you make
time for your marriage?

Speaker 2 (20:09):
So we have to plan.
We have to plan when we'regoing to go out without the kids
and, honestly, we make them goto bed at 930.
Ok, ok, when the house is quiet, we have time to talk.
Compare what's going on, youknow, because he's just as busy,
like I said, he's in schoolcompleting his degree and so,

(20:32):
and then we'll plan dates andwe'll go out and leave them with
grandma.

Speaker 1 (20:36):
OK.

Speaker 2 (20:37):
Or we may play hooky and they may be at school and we
may take a day.

Speaker 1 (20:42):
Oh, I like that, ok, school and we may take a day.
Oh, I like that, okay, so wow,I'm in my mind like if I were to
be jotting down notes right now.
I'm like scheduling, scheduling, schedule.
It sounds like a lot of likeyou said it multiple times
coordinating scheduling, but itseems like you guys have really

(21:02):
found a system to work for you,so that's amazing.
Now we've talked about family,we've talked about work With
work.
I want to circle back.
Would you describe yourworkplace as an environment that
was mom friendly?

Speaker 2 (21:22):
Most definitely was mom friendly.
Most definitely because I workfor a school district and the
kids always come first whenyou're in that environment.
So that goes for the employeestoo.
The kids come first, familycomes first, and so if I need to
leave to go take care ofsomething with my kid, it's not
an issue.
So it is a very work.

(21:43):
It's a very family friendlyenvironment and I take off when
I need to take off because thejob's going to get done
regardless.
My job's going to get doneregardless and they know that
I'm going to do and I'm going toproduce the work.
So I have no issues.
Whenever family needs me or ifthere's a field trip for one of

(22:04):
the kids or an event at theschool honor roll, what have you
I can get up and leave my joband go.

Speaker 1 (22:13):
Okay.
So, and I always ask thatquestion because when, in my
opinion, when we talk aboutmotherhood opinion, when we talk
about motherhood, a lot ofwomen, even today, really have
to choose between the industrythat they work in, what types of

(22:35):
opportunities and jobs theywant to pursue, and what that
looks like when you bringchildren and families into the
mix.
So I always pose that questionto all of the guests because
maybe someone out there islistening, they're considering

(22:56):
doing something in a certainfield, but they're probably
holding back because, oh, I havekids, I don't know if the work
schedule would work out with thekids' school schedule and so on
and so forth.
So I like to give insight soother listeners can have an idea
.
If they're thinking aboutsomething, then maybe that

(23:19):
option, it might be a practicaloption for them if the field is
a little more family friendly ormom friendly.
So I like to ask that question.

Speaker 2 (23:31):
So I'd like to say that I have not always worked in
positions where I have beenable to prioritize being a mom.
I was an executive director anda program director for a long
time when the kids were youngerand honestly, I had to make a
decision once we got Ethan'sautism diagnosis to step back

(23:53):
because at one point he was intherapy four or five days a week
with three different therapies.
So that wasn't conducive as amanager and an executive
director.
And I do remember having tofill out paperwork to do the
FMLA so I can take therapy.
So, and I had the master'sdegree in counseling and my

(24:17):
husband told me, he's likeyou're sitting on that degree
and you're not getting licensed.
And I was like, well, we wouldhave to pay someone for
supervision or I'd have to quitmy job and make less money.
And he encouraged me to quitthe job and he's like we'd make
it work.
And I took a job as a therapist, which was that first insight

(24:38):
into wait, I can make my ownschedule.

Speaker 1 (24:42):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (24:44):
So I only worked when I wanted to work.
Then the pay was okay.
It was fee for service.
Back then I think it was maybe$34 an hour, which was pretty
good back then 10, 15 years ago.
So at that time they reallybecame spoiled.
Because if there was no school,guess who didn't work?

(25:07):
I didn't work if it was aholiday or a spring break, and
some days if it was raining toohard, I didn't want to go to
work.

Speaker 1 (25:15):
That's nice OK.

Speaker 2 (25:17):
But I was able to.
That's when I realized thatthere are jobs and career paths
where you can be flexible as amom and, honestly, for a long
time I felt like I did sacrificemy career for my kids.
Because I was in executiveleadership, I was in management,
and that's when I started thedoctoral program, because I

(25:41):
wanted something for myself,even though I wasn't working in
those high management positions.
But what that allowed me to dowas create a new normal with a
lot of flexibility to work whereI want to work, whether it's
completely for myself or forsomeone else.

(26:03):
But the work that I do is sospecialized that I'm an asset.
If I choose not to work at theschool district, I can work
completely, 100% for myself, andthe family would be okay, we
would be okay and it would givemore, even more flexibility.

Speaker 1 (26:24):
Okay, Now I have a question.
This isn't from the list oranything like that, but do you
sometimes find yourself findthat you miss having those
higher positions, the executivepositions?
Do you miss that at all?

Speaker 2 (26:40):
Honestly, no, right now I don't.
At times, I think you, when yousee other people and they're
being leaders and they're makingdecisions that you know aren't
quite maybe the best decisions,and know that you have that
expertise to do their jobsbetter, so at times it's like,
oh, I can't believe they didthat.

(27:01):
Maybe this should have happenedthis way.
You want to dibble back intothat area, but I am at this
stage and I'm not ashamed to sayit I am 51 years old.
I'm okay with where I'm at.
If I'm going to be a leader,it's going to be for my own
business.
It's not going to be forsomeone else's company.

Speaker 1 (27:22):
Okay and I'm glad you pointed that out, because
sometimes pursuing other careerpaths and climbing the ladder
when you're trying to balanceand juggle a family, sometimes
it's not the most practicaloption.
But I love the fact that youare highlighting how you've

(27:45):
managed to go from like amainstream industry and carve
out your own special way andwe're still describing
entrepreneurship at this point.
You have your own business, youare your own boss, you make
your own schedule.
I'm not saying that lightly,because I'm sure that comes with

(28:07):
a whole slew of otherresponsibilities that you
wouldn't have if you were inlike a more cookie cutter
executive position.
This is already laid out.
You work for a corporation.
This is how we do things.
So I love the fact that you aregiving us insight into both
worlds.
You know we can have themotherhood with working a nine

(28:32):
to five, or you can be a presentmom and wife doing the
entrepreneurial route, and inyour case you are doing both and
you're making it work throughyour collaboration and your
teamwork with your husband.
So I love that you were able togive us ideas and insight into

(28:53):
all of those paths, because Istill see a lot of my friends
right now.
I think when we first startedout, we were young, we were
eager, fresh out of college, andwe would take pretty much
whatever was given to us,whatever opportunities were
offered, in hopes of climbingthat corporate ladder and

(29:15):
getting a nice income where wecan take care of a family and
having the stability andpredictability in your schedule
to say, okay, I'm gonna get paidconsistently, I'm going to go
to work from this time to thistime and then I can see my
family.
After five o'clock is justfamily time, I can clock out and

(29:36):
I don't have to worry aboutanything else.
But I think as time hasprogressed, as things have
changed, now we're all at acrossroads, you know, do I want
to continue this ladder?
I think later on we started tolearn and just understand a
little bit more about phrasesthat are thrown around like

(29:59):
work-life balance right or valueadded right.
So do I want to climb theladder anymore Is a question
that I'm hearing a lot of myfriends, whether they say that
exactly or they use anotherphrase.
They're all at a crossroadsright now with trying to figure

(30:21):
out if climbing the ladder isworth the sacrifice away from
the family.
Like our children are gettingolder, we want to give them
opportunities and you can't dothat without providing some type
of financial stability for them.
But now I'm starting to hear alot of my friends like okay, at

(30:45):
what cost?
Right, we now have enough workexperience to where we can apply
for executive decisions.
I mean executive positions.
We can apply for those.
But now the question is well,for how much more money, how
much more time are you going totake and how much more

(31:07):
responsibility am I going totake on?
One of my girlfriends, one ofher associates, just parted ways
from their organization for anopportunity to take on, like a
higher salary, a different job,similar skills at a higher
salary.
But we were talking about itand she was like well, you know,

(31:31):
best of luck, because thatposition carries a lot of
liability.
So now I'm starting to hear youknow, 10 years ago we just
wanted jobs, good paying jobs,that was the goal.
We didn't really want anythingelse.
Now here it is, 10 years later,and all of us are not as eager

(31:51):
to jump at the higher salariesbecause a lot of us have started
families.
So now we're taking otherthings into consideration and
whereas before I would alwaysask people who were older than
me like, hey, why didn't you gofor that job.
That would be great if you gotpaid that much.
But now that I'm kind of inthat seat and I'm seeing behind

(32:15):
the veil, behind the curtainright is, oh okay.
Well, maybe that higher salarywouldn't be worth the time,
commitment or the liability andresponsibility associated with
those higher positions and thehigher salaries.
Maybe it's not worth the money,maybe it's not, or maybe I have

(32:35):
something else that's of morevalue to me than those things.
So it sounds like for youyou've been able to figure out
what's more important to you,and then it sounds like you've
also still managed to find a wayto have the best of both worlds

(32:56):
, because it's not often that wehear moms here on the show that
take their careers intoconsiderations and are still
able to find a way to satisfytheir career aspirations and
balance that family lifestyle.
And it sounds like you've beenable to do that.

(33:18):
So that's awesome.
Um, do you have anything to addto anything that I said?

Speaker 2 (33:25):
what I would add to that is and I I recently had
this conversation with a youngprofessional who was considering
moving up and is currently in aposition where she feels she
has more work-life balance.
So what I would say to a youngcareer woman who has a young

(33:46):
family is go ahead and take thatchance.
Take the position, because youcan always leave that position
if it is costing you too muchtime with your family because
you don't want to be in asituation where you're thinking
about the woulda, coulda,shoulda I should have done this

(34:06):
or I should have done that.
Take that chance and see if youcan carve out Post COVID.
A lot of executive positionsare more flexible than they were
because we can do a lot fromhome now.
So I would definitely say takethe risk and then, once you're
in the position, determine ifit's worth it and then, if you

(34:30):
need to step back down to adifferent position with the same
company or another company,there's nothing wrong with doing
that.
Just give it a try so that youcan determine whether or not
it's for you or not.
I don't want anyone to feel anyregrets because I did.

(34:51):
After I had Ethan, before he hada diagnosis, I did step down
from a leadership position andwent into a training position
because the job was so stressfuland I would be on call for four
counties with a newborn andmaking high risk decisions while
exhausted.
I supervised child welfareinvestigations for a number of

(35:13):
years too, and that's theposition when I had him.
So I made a decision to stepdown to a position that paid
less for about a year, but itwasn't long before that company
tapped me into a leadershipposition because of my
experience and even being inthat position, because I ran a

(35:34):
high risk juvenile youthoffender program for girls.
There was no rest, no sleep,because I was responsible for 30
juvenile females and all thestaff that was there.
And then I was pregnant with mysecond son, with Emery, and I
think I was on bedrest and myhusband's like we're going to

(35:54):
have to figure something elseout because I don't think this
is going to work.
And he was right it wasn'tgoing to work because of the
stress and everything with itand then having two young
children at home because they'reonly two years apart.
So I didn't go back to workafter I had Emery and I did take
another position because I wasin my counseling program then.

(36:16):
So I took a position morealigned with that.
But I really wasn't making anymoney.
So I've gone up and down in mycareer as far as positions and
making the money, based on whatwould work.
But I had goals, I hadaspirations and by the time I
was 30, I had already hit thosecareer aspirations with the

(36:38):
positions and the money so, andI had my first child at 35, my
second one at 37.
So at that time I was ready toback off and try something
different.

Speaker 1 (36:50):
OK, and I like that.
You were flexible enough to trysomething different, did you?
I have two questions.
So the first one you said yourhusband said that he doesn't
think this is going to work.
How did you feel Hearing that?

(37:10):
How, how did that feel hearingthat from him?
Because I've heard that beforeand I did have a mom recently
tell me her husband told her thesame thing.
She's a mom of twins and he waskind of like honey, it is not
working out.
And she said she had a lot ofresentment towards him.
Even though he was right, shewas like for a while just having

(37:36):
that come from him.
She resented him for a while.
So how did you handle beingtold you know, hey, this may not
be the best, this may not workout.

Speaker 2 (37:48):
So no resentment because let me give some context
to that conversation.
I was pregnant, probably aboutfour, five, maybe six months
pregnant, and I had a feelingthat things were happening on
the overnight shift at theresidential program.
So I brought a radio home, tooka radio in my car home and I

(38:12):
got up and me and my husband haddiscussed it and the program
was like 30 miles from my housein the county south of us and I
told him.
I said I got to go back becausesomething's not right, because
it was a lot of responsibility.
Okay, so I roll up at my gate,turn my radio on, press the
button for my master control tolet me in and over the radio.

(38:33):
It's like Miss Francine'scoming through the gate.
Miss Francine's coming throughthe gate to alert the staff.
Wow, and I got back on theradio.
I'm sorry, but why are youalerting staff that I'm coming
in the gate?
So it was after I did that thatnight and it was probably like 1
or 2 o'clock in the morning.
So female driving on thehighway 30 miles away from home,

(38:59):
pregnant.
So and then feeling that I was,so I was responsible which I
was that I needed to do it.
So there was no resentment.
But anytime that you are in asituation like that and you
don't feel that you can trustyour staff enough to do the

(39:19):
right thing, something has togive, something to give.
And I didn't need to go backafter that.
I was placed on bed restbecause it was a high stress
position and just the context.
Given that context and um, thatwas, I was pregnant with my
youngest son, but I had beenpregnant before Ethan and lost

(39:40):
the baby at five months.
So I think that thatconversation came from a place
of this is kind of risky for youand for us.
So there was no resentment.
I knew where it was coming fromand he was right, he was
definitely resentment.
I knew where it was coming fromand he was right, he was
definitely right.

Speaker 1 (40:01):
Okay, well, and it's good that you all have that
dialogue and you created thatspace with each other to have
those conversations, becausethat was the first time I had
ever heard that from someone.
You know, to me it made sense.
She was a mom trying to juggletwins, and you know it's hard

(40:23):
enough juggling one newborn andyou have two and you're still
trying to do everything that youwere doing prior to having
children.
So it took me by surprise andjust maybe, uh, one day I'll
have her on the show to explainit a little bit more.
But she did say, like you know,he was telling me the right

(40:46):
thing, he was right.
She just wasn't ready to hearit and she wasn't ready to step
down.
And I do hear that, um, from alot of women as well who are
still, you know, on the fencewith the corporate jobs.
You know there's a sense offailure for some women if they
have to walk away or changethose career aspirations, modify

(41:09):
those dreams and, you know,find another way to do what they
were trying to do.
So I love that.
Everything that you'redescribing your, your plans
changed and everything thatyou're saying is just a positive
.
You're not it doesn't soundlike you lost out on anything.
It doesn't sound like youwalked away and were like, oh,

(41:33):
I'm gonna miss out on this orI'm ashamed because I didn't
continue to climb that ladder.
It sounds like it's okay tochange and pivot and I feel like
we don't hear that enough.
I don't know if it comes fromlike our upbringing and just
having very traditional parentswho want you to go to school,

(41:54):
get your degree, get a job andwork that job and work your way
up and don't quit if it gets toohard and stick it out because
they stuck out their jobs for 30years.
I find myself having thatconversation slightly with my
mom.
I try not to entertain thatconversation Because in her mind

(42:16):
I know she's coming from aplace of love and it's the
stability and you want this andyou want that, like don't leave
that job.
And me I'm kind of like I don'tlike this, I don't like that, I
feel stressed out, I'm ready togo find something else.
So it's interesting to finallyhear someone say that it's okay

(42:37):
to pivot, it's okay to changeyour plans, it's okay to try
something and it's okay to admitthat you know what that didn't
really work out.
Let me take a step back, let meregroup and let me figure
something else out.
So I think more people need tohear that and that sounds very
realistic.
There's no shame in any of that.

(42:59):
I think that conversation needsto happen a lot more than the
narrative that you need to stickit out, climb the ladder and
basically that seems to be thenorm.
You commit to these jobs.
You go to work at one o'clockin the morning if that's what's
required, because you have anobligation and a job to do.

(43:21):
So it's nice to hear someonesay you know what that wasn't
working for me anymore.
It's time to change the plan.
So that is amazing and we have,like, gone through.
Is there anything else,career-wise that you want to
share with us?
Because I have another questionjust leading into it.

Speaker 2 (43:42):
The only thing I would say in reference to not
sticking with a job and movingon and I know that's what the
younger generation does is youhave to be smart with your money
.
You have to invest your moneyso that you can have retirement.
And I'll be very honest I amback at the district, was only

(44:03):
planning on being back a yearafter COVID, and I had so many
years into the state retirementsystem that it's crazy to let
that go go.
Okay, and so I'm trying to getthe rest of my years in which

(44:24):
that's holding me and thehealthcare is holding me and my
husband hostage, because if youget a plan outside of a
corporation, they normally don'tcover services for autism.

Speaker 1 (44:34):
Oh, wow, okay.

Speaker 2 (44:36):
So what I would say to a young woman is if you're
going to career, hop.
Make sure you're taking a chunkof your earnings and you are
investing it for your future,for retirement, because we are
all going to get old and may notbe able to work at some point.
So if you are, if you are goingto job, hop, max out those

(45:02):
401ks.
Get you a Roth IRA, but dosomething and be good with your
money so that you are going tobe okay later on.

Speaker 1 (45:11):
Okay, look, I feel like you're talking to me.
Let me jot that down because Idid.
I left teaching where I reallydidn't think about retirement as
a new teacher.
Here in Palm Beach we havesomething called teacher fest
and really you just show up andeverything you need, you just go

(45:33):
down the line, people have it'slike a huge festival party for
teachers, right?
And basically, as a new teacher, they tell you all right,
you're going to go to thisauditorium, you, you have your
little classes that you go to,and in between the classes you
know they have booths and tentsset up.

(45:55):
Oh, you need to stop by here toget your union protection and
your union membership set up.
Oh, you need to stop by here toget your union protection and
your union membership set up.
Oh, you need to stop here toset up your benefits.
Oh, stop here if you want to.
And these were supplementalthings, because our benefits,
retirement, all of that stuffyou know in the florida

(46:16):
retirement system, you kind ofalready have that selected for
you, right?

Speaker 2 (46:21):
So all of these other things.

Speaker 1 (46:23):
Now, this is extra.
So you have people there justtelling you you know you want to
start a 403b, you're reallyyoung.
This is going to be that extracushion after you retire.
You want to open up, maybeanother account because you have
children and you want to beable to save money for them one

(46:44):
day.
Like I didn't have to do anyresearch, I didn't have to go
out and search for anything.
Anything that I needed was likeright at my fingertips.
So that's the one thing Iprobably didn't take into
consideration when I made theswitch, when I made the career
change.
Now, as a behavior analyst outin the field, working for myself

(47:07):
, these are questions that Ihave and I have to figure it out
on my own.
Granted, I've been in the fieldnow for about coming up on
about two years in the field nowfor about coming up on about
two years, and I did tell myself, you know, within that two year
timeframe, by the end of thosetwo years, I need to figure
something out and I need to knowwhat that's going to look like,

(47:32):
because you're right, we're notgoing to be young forever,
we're.
We're eventually going to getold and nowadays you see a lot
of people old and nowadays yousee a lot of people like in
their 70s, working, or you hearabout a lot of people coming out
of retirement, going back towork and they're in their mid to
late 70s, they're pushing 80,and it's like, oh my goodness,

(47:53):
who wants to work?
You know, nobody wants to workat that age, but here we are.
So it's important.
It's definitely important, likeyou said, and I think more
conversations like that need tohappen, because that was
something you know as a youngperson.
You're just looking at you knowteachers don't make a lot of

(48:16):
money.
This makes makes more money.
Okay, I'm out, all right, whatabout all the other benefits
that you get as a teacher thatyou don't get anywhere else?
So now I'm having to reallyjust sit down, figure my life
out, figure out my finances andmake a new set of goals.
Now, this is gonna be a totallydifferent set of goals that I

(48:37):
need to make for myself outsideof goals.
Now, this is going to be atotally different set of goals
that I need to make for myselfoutside of those career
aspirations.
And I do feel blessed to beable to be in a position to even
think about those things,because some people don't even
have that opportunity.
Some people are, you know, justworking multiple jobs and just

(48:58):
trying to make ends meet, andthere is no conversation about
retirement, there is no dialogueabout savings, because there's
nothing to save right now.
You know, the cost of living isthrough the roof.
Everything is super expensive.
So you have people workingmultiple jobs just to get
through the day-to-day life.
So I'm glad you pointed that outbecause that is something I see

(49:22):
a lot of people my age pursuingentrepreneurship and sometimes
I just wonder, like, okay, youstarted your business as an
entrepreneur, but what does thatretirement look like?
Like what are you doing on thatend?
So it'll be interesting to see,especially with my generation
in a few years, like you know,these business ventures that

(49:44):
seem to be popping up.
You know, what does that looklike?
Or is it, is it better to stickwith the corporation and maybe
do your business on the side,just so you have that cushion of
retirement and things like thatlater.
So it'll be interesting.
I'm glad you brought that upbecause that is something more
people need to consider.

(50:05):
So, with everything that we'vejust learned about you, the
insight that you've given us,now I'm going to get a little
personal.
Don't get afraid, it's not toopersonal.

Speaker 2 (50:25):
But how would you describe yourself as a mom?
As a mom, wow, I would say thatI'm very engaged, very active,
I'm all up in the 13-year-old'sbusiness.
But I would also describemyself as and I had this
conversation with someoneyesterday I had two goals as a
parent not to traumatize mychild and not to be the victim

(50:47):
of trauma.
And my other goal was to helpthem be as successful as they
can be, and I think I'mdefinitely on track to doing
those things.
I feed their interests, theirpassions.
We provide them withopportunities as parents that we

(51:07):
did not have.
So if my son described me andhis dad, he says we're kind of
helicopter-ish.
Of course we're older than hisfriend's parents because, again,
I had them at 35 and 37.
So but I'm flexible too.
I will listen as a clinician,as a therapist, if my son tells

(51:33):
me how he's feeling or somethingI've done or said that has made
him feel a little crappy.
We had this conversation, Ithink, friday.
It gives me an opportunity toreflect and to have that
conversation and I can admitwhen I've done things wrong or
how maybe I need to do things alittle differently to parent, to

(51:55):
his needs.
So I would say, as a mom, I'mflexible.

Speaker 1 (51:59):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (52:00):
I'm engaged and active and aware.

Speaker 1 (52:03):
Okay Now are you those things?
Do you think you're that way asa mom because of your
personality, or do you thinkyour mental health background
has kind of shaped yourbehaviors as a mom?

Speaker 2 (52:20):
I think honestly, I think my whole career shaped who
I am as a mom.
I started off my career as ajuvenile probation officer, okay
, and then I worked in childwelfare as a supervisor, and
then I went into mental health.
So I think I know I'm firmenough to make sure that I, you
know, my kid follows the rulesand doesn't make bad decisions.

(52:44):
He has the tools to help himmake good decisions.
I'll say that because I can'tcontrol what he does, but I
think I was shaped throughout mycareer with my experiences and
my personality.
Throughout my career, with myexperiences and my personality.
My personality as a mom is likewhat does my kid need?
I'm jumping on it right now.
I'm going to take care of it.

Speaker 1 (53:05):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (53:05):
So, but I think, knowing the world the way it is,
I'm very protective and very Ican be reactive.
But I like to try to again planahead and prepare for different
situations and different thingsthat I may encounter as a

(53:28):
parent.

Speaker 1 (53:29):
Okay, now, this is going to be interesting to hear,
but I want, and I asked all mymoms this question and I'll give
you like a moment to reallythink of something but what was
your most recent shitty momexperience?

Speaker 2 (53:48):
Oh, you say recent, wow.
Well, my most recent shitty momexperience was within the last
couple of days.
Like this week, friday, um, myson sent a text to me and my his
dad.
And it's like I'm not feelingcomfortable here.

(54:10):
I need someone to pick me up soI would I text okay, I'm on my
way.
He didn't know he had anorthodontist appointment, so I
was going to be picking him upin the next 30 minutes.
But when I got there he wasalready in the front office
waiting for me and I'm like whatare you doing here?
What's going on?
You know, I'm looking around,nobody's, you know.
And I asked the ladies behindthe desk how did he get there?

(54:34):
And they were like, oh, he justwalked up, walked up.
So I'm like what's going on?
What happened?
And he's like can we talk aboutit?
In the car?
I'm like we don't talk aboutthis right now.
And one of his friends hadwalked him up to the office and
I said to the young man I got it, have a good day, you know,
because there was an audience.
Okay, okay, so, and then I didtake him and then, when I found

(54:59):
out what the issue was, I didtypical black mom thing and I
fussed at him a little bit andthis shouldn't matter.
And then, because he is the sonof a therapist, he was like so
you're really making me feelreally crappy right now, and I
was already feeling bad, and soI had to take a couple of steps

(55:20):
back and respect his feelings inthe moment and respect how he
was feeling when he sent the SOS.
But I was able to build themback up and make him understand,
from my perspective, why I wasaggravated with the situation.
You know you can't always rescuehim from uncomfortable
situations, even though that'sthat first instinct to do.

(55:44):
So, I think it was shitty on mypart because I fussed.
I went to fussing.
So instead of letting him havehis moment that he needed to
feel bad and sad about, whateverthe issue was, I did the
typical Black mom thing andfussed.
And you know they talked aboutJesus.

(56:06):
So what makes you special?
They're not going to talk aboutyou.

Speaker 1 (56:09):
Oh, not that one.

Speaker 2 (56:11):
Yeah, I did.
I said those words, they cameout of my mouth.

Speaker 1 (56:15):
Oh, okay, okay.
So yeah, that was the mostrecent okay, gotcha, and uh what
, there was something I justjotted down.
Um, I love the fact that.
So is that something that youguys kind of worked out together
, or did he just do that on hisown?
You say he sent like an sos, sodid you guys talk and you kind

(56:38):
of prepared him hey, ifsomething happens, message me.
Or do you just have that opendialogue and relationship with
each other?

Speaker 2 (56:45):
We have that open dialogue.
Like I said earlier, he's ahigh performing student so he is
prone to a little anxiety.
If there's a test or somethinggoing on, he'll get a little
somatic symptoms like thattummy's hurting and things like
that.
So but he was specifically likehe didn't feel comfortable.
So it's like, you know, me andmy husband had a conversation

(57:07):
and route I was like I don'tknow what's going on with this
eighth grade drama now.

Speaker 1 (57:11):
But you know, um, I said, middle school is tough too
.
So that's amazing that you knowhe is still openly
communicating with you aroundthat age.
I feel like, as a middle schoolteacher, the transitions and

(57:32):
the changes and the challengesthat I saw the kids go through
it's the worst that I've everseen around that age.
Seventh grade, eighth gradethat's probably the most
challenging time, I think.
High school it gets a littleeasier.
The kids find their littleniche, they find their group and

(57:53):
they start to get comfortablewith who.
They are right.
But middle school is all aboutthe peers, is all about
appealing and being cool to yourpeers, even if your peers are
into things that you know yourparents taught you that aren't
the right things to do.

(58:14):
You have some kids and somestudents who worry more about
the opinions of their peers thananything else.
So whatever comes, whatevertheir peers think, that takes
precedence over anything else.
So it's kind of impressive thatyou still have that open
dialogue with him and it's greatthat he even feels comfortable

(58:39):
enough to tell you when you'remaking him feel uncomfortable um
, that may not be the mostcomfortable thing to hear, but
it's great that he even has thatskill set to begin with,
because I know that's achallenge, especially for boys,
especially for black boys, youknow it.
It comes that that's prettyheavy with expressing feelings

(59:03):
like that.
So that's awesome that you guyshave that dialogue with each
other.
So it's I don't know.
I'm just hearing all goodthings right now.
So, in your opinion, what areyour three biggest challenges as
a mom?

Speaker 2 (59:23):
three biggest challenges, I would say being
present, I would say not puttingmy needs or wants above them,
because I am responsible forthem.
And the third one would beprotecting them from the world,

(59:45):
because I know when they're withme or with us they're safe.
So that biggest challenge iswhat are they going to encounter
when they're not with us andare they going to be prepared
for it?

Speaker 1 (59:56):
and are they going to be prepared for it?
Okay, so what kind ofstrategies are you using, or
have you found any yet, to helpyou with like being?
Let's start with being present.

Speaker 2 (01:00:08):
With being present.
I have a hard if I'm home andI'm responsible for them.
My phone is off.
You can try to call me, text me.
Unless I happen to have myphone in my hand, people are not
going to reach me and thatincludes, like my mom, like she
knows, when I'm home that phoneis off.
So she'll call Emery or call myhusband, because that's how I

(01:00:32):
can stay present with them andin the moment, if I disconnect
from all the jobs and theclients and the students, I
don't care about the phone, andwhen it's their time we will do
things.
I take time for Ethan'sbirthday.
I didn't make him go to schoolthat day.

(01:00:53):
I took that day off and me andhim spent that day together.
Emory has a doctor'sappointment tomorrow morning, so
we'll probably go and havebreakfast because his
appointment's not until 915.
So they get time with metogether, but then they get time
with me separately as well.

Speaker 1 (01:01:13):
Okay and I like that.
I did have another mom who Ithink it just so happens that
her kids are involved in sportsand the sports are different, so
they're in different seasons,so she can kind of prioritize
the kids seasonally and spend,like you know, quality time with

(01:01:33):
just one of them.
She was another mom ofmultiples.
So I love that idea Disconnectand do something and what about?
So?
This is a big one for me and Ithink it comes up in like every
show in in one way or another.
But what are you doing tocombat like the challenge of

(01:01:56):
protecting them from the world?
Combat?

Speaker 2 (01:01:57):
like the challenge of protecting them from the world.
I think what I'm doing istrying to learn how to relax
because, again, with Emery and Iconcentrate more on Emery
because Ethan's always going tobe sheltered, because he's
always going to need someonewith him when he's out in the
world, whether it's us orsomeone we hire.

(01:02:18):
So that's why I'm concentratingon Emery.
It's about making sure that hehas those skills to say no, to
express how he feels that he'suncomfortable and to know that
he does.
He can send an SOS andsomeone's going to be there okay

(01:02:43):
and I'm taking notes.

Speaker 1 (01:02:45):
That's why I'm like looking down writing okay, and
then so I put learn to relax andteach coping skills.
It sounds like that's whatyou're doing.
Coping skills to say no.
Coping skills to say hey, I'muncomfortable.
I need to tag in an adult.

(01:03:06):
I know recently my son.
He's preparing to go to middleschool next year and I just had
a conversation with him lastweek just letting him know look,
if you are ever around yourfriends and your dad and I, we
aren't there.
If you feel like something isgoing wrong that is making you

(01:03:32):
feel uncomfortable, I don't carewhat it is, you will not be in
trouble.
Just call me, just call yourdad.
We will stop everything thatwe're doing and we will come and
get you.
You won't be in trouble.
We just want you safe.
If you think they're doingsomething that might get you in

(01:03:52):
trouble, or you think they'redoing something that might get
you in trouble, or you thinkthey're doing something that
might get someone hurt and youdon't want to make a big scene,
or you don't want to seem like,oh, you're a baby, or you know
you're a snitch, why are youtelling we we will just come and
get you?
We'll be as discreet aspossible and we just want you,

(01:04:13):
we will get you out of there.
So I don't think he fullyunderstood.
I think it was like Mom, whatare you talking about?
But I just want to make thatclear to him.
And I'm sure it's going to be asituation where we have that
conversation with him more thanone time.
But I just want to startdrilling it in because right now

(01:04:38):
he doesn't, he doesn't reallyunderstand, but I'm sure there's
going to come a time, with himgoing to middle school, there's
going to be a situation where hedoes feel torn between, do you
know, staying there with hispeers and that discomfort, or in
a situation that may not be thebest, versus reaching out and

(01:05:02):
asking for help.
And I just want to drive hometo him right now.
You know, in ABA we're allabout repetition, right, and
we're all about practicing.
So in my mind I'm like if Ikeep practicing now, before
something happens, then when thetime comes, hopefully he has

(01:05:23):
that skill, hopefully he hasenough self-awareness to
recognize.
You know what I don't reallylike this situation.
My mom said I can call her ortext her and she'll come and get
me, no questions asked.
So I'm hoping to build thatwith him now because, like you
said, the challenge ofprotecting your kids from the

(01:05:45):
world.
You know, I can't think of howmany things they can encounter
that would be a challenge, orrisky, or dangerous or, you know
, unsafe, and I can't, logically, I can't prepare him for
everything, but I'm, I'm hoping.

(01:06:08):
The one thing that I've drivenhome to him is just call me.
I don't care what it is, Idon't care about you getting in
trouble.
If you call me to come and getyou, you're not in trouble.
Just call me, call your dad, wewill come and get you and we'll
figure it out together.
I don't care what it is.
So I want to drive that homenow and hopefully he will

(01:06:30):
remember to.
You know, send that to.
Hey, I'm not feeling socomfortable.
Come and pick me up, or can youcome and get me?
That that is the ultimate goal.
So how did you get to thatpoint with your son?

Speaker 2 (01:06:44):
I think, like you said, that reputation okay and
he uses it.
He does utilize it.
But I think they have to becomfortable and I think from a
young age it's always been ifyou tell us the truth, you're
not going to be in trouble.
So if you've done something,just tell the truth.
And we've been very consistentwith that and he's so, he's

(01:07:07):
honest, so, and when he's toldus the truth, it's like, oh, but
we walk away and we don't fussor whatever, and we let it go
because we want that, we wantthe truth.

Speaker 1 (01:07:18):
Okay, bigger picture.

Speaker 2 (01:07:19):
Yeah, right, right.
So he knows that he can come tous and that we won't explode.
We may want to explode, butwe're pretty good at holding it
in.
Okay, and me and my husband areon the same page, because I
looked at grades a while backand I was like he got an F in
such and such on a test orsomething or quiz.

(01:07:40):
It was a quiz and he just gotoff of straight A's.
I said, but I'm not going tofuss, but I'm just calling you
because I need to vent.
Okay, so then when my husbandpicked him up, the first thing
he told my husband was I didn'tdo well on a quiz, da-da-da-da
and whatever.
So my husband said, yeah, yourmom looks, she already knows.
But she said that there's someother work that's in there in

(01:08:05):
Canvas that you should see, thatyou can do some practice work
or something.

Speaker 1 (01:08:08):
So I didn't explode then.

Speaker 2 (01:08:11):
But you know you want to then but you know you want
to.
And even with the grades, we'venever pressured him.
But because he does well on hisown, I still monitor and it's
like I do ask.
I don't check Skyward every day, I'm like so where we are,
because I don't want anysurprises.
And that's been repeated timeand time again.

(01:08:32):
That's why, when dad picked himup from school, repeated time
and time again.
That's why, when dad picked himup from school because we don't
want surprises he just told hey, I didn't do too well on this
quiz and I got an F.

Speaker 1 (01:08:43):
And that's like the best feeling.

Speaker 2 (01:08:46):
It is, but you still want to be like how'd this
happen, how this happened.
But so I think for him that'swhat we did and he will come to
us and talk to us, and sometimeshe'll go talk to my husband or
whatever.
He may not, they'll haveconversations that I know
nothing about, which is fine orwhatever, and it just it just

(01:09:10):
really depends on where he is orwhat's going on.
And I think it's about beingpresent and making the time to
sit and talk and have the opendialogue and to tell what your
expectations are.
And we've set the expectationsand he set the expectations by,

(01:09:32):
you know, doing well, so we knowhe can do well without
pressuring him.
He's done well, so it is anexpectation now and then if he
needs help or tutoring, he comesto us.
That boy had me paying $3.50 amonth for mathnasium last year
for tutoring because he said heneeded tutoring and maintained a

(01:09:55):
B all year and gota five onwhatever the state test was.
He didn't need it because hesaid he needed it.

Speaker 1 (01:10:03):
Yeah, I was going to say I love this self-awareness,
I absolutely.

Speaker 2 (01:10:10):
It has its challenges because he is self-aware.
So he he is definitely aunicorn, but he's a unicorn that
can give us challengessometimes because he is
self-aware, right, but usuallywhat comes with that is a child.

Speaker 1 (01:10:25):
That's outspoken and you know we were raised like you
.
Don't talk back to adults, youdon't?
You know children should beseen and not heard.
And so how are you navigatingthat space?

(01:10:46):
Because I think a lot ofparents right now are struggling
with trying to nurtureself-aware kids who advocate for
themselves and then also tryingto navigate that space of
excuse me, I'm the adult Fallback.

Speaker 2 (01:11:05):
So how do?

Speaker 1 (01:11:06):
you navigate that space.

Speaker 2 (01:11:08):
I think it's all about respect and he has to be
respectful when he comes to usand talks to us.
So the tone matters, so all ofit matters the tone, his body
language, so what we tried toteach him like okay, I need you
to relax that voice, take thatlittle bass out and talk to me

(01:11:30):
how you would talk to a teacher,right, because they always
behave better when they'resomewhere else.
I will say he did try it onetime and I think he learned his
lesson.
He was like I'm going to tellyou guys how I feel and I don't
care if I'm getting in trouble,and I was like I'm going to sit
back and watch this happen,because it was something that

(01:11:50):
happened to him.
So I was like I sat back and Ilet him dig his hole, and then I
saved his life.
I let him dig it and then itwas like you know, because he
really made my husband angry andI was like, okay, I think it's
time for you to disengage now.

(01:12:11):
I'm like I'm trying to saveyour life.
You just made a big mistake.

Speaker 1 (01:12:16):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:12:18):
After he reflected on it, he went back and he
apologized to his dad orwhatever.
Okay and it's, but it is achallenge because he does.
He has some greatself-advocating skills, but he
has to learn how to read theparents and know when to back
off gotcha.

Speaker 1 (01:12:39):
Yeah, I always say my son, his name means he who
fights for his beliefs, and I'mlike, uh, buddy, slow down, like
you're fighting a little bittoo much, you don't need to
fight me on this.
Like everything is a fight.
Dinner what he's gonna eat,what he's not gonna eat, and I

(01:13:02):
tried the old school.
Okay, I guess you're not gonnaeat then.
And he was.
He called my bluff like allright, going to bed and you know
what.

Speaker 2 (01:13:11):
That's okay, because if he was really hungry he would
eat, and the same thing hashappened here.
Because then it's like, oh,you're not going.
Well, the kitchen is closed.
No snacks, no snacks.
Yeah.
So it's challenging, but he hasthat freedom to let us know how
he feels.
That me and my husband neverhad and I'm okay with that.

(01:13:33):
He's not afraid of us and myparent ruled.
She was a single parent and Ithink she ruled with that fear
that something was going tohappen if you didn't walk the
walk the right way.
My kids are not afraid.
He knows that.
We can sit down and havedialogue with me and his dad.
So but it is a balance withbeing respectful and he's been

(01:13:58):
talked to about the tone andbeing respectful and the
responses and you know nottrying to cut us off because he
doesn't want to hear what we say, so, but he's a kid that
yelling doesn't work for him andit's you know.
So it's like, okay, you, you'veexpressed to me verbally you
don't want me to yell, so pleasedon't be surprised when I just

(01:14:19):
come remove items from your room.

Speaker 1 (01:14:23):
When the internet just stops working all of a
sudden.

Speaker 2 (01:14:28):
So yes, because you know I've turned that internet
off before, so it's things likethat.
So, yes, I parent differentlythan my parent parented me, but
I know I'm doing it better.

Speaker 1 (01:14:38):
Okay, I like that.
I had a question somewhere inthere.
I'll come back to it.
I think it was with him.
Him oh, I'll come back to it ina minute but I with him just

(01:15:04):
self advocating.
Oh, that's what I was gonna say.
So you don't want a little bitof fear, like just I don't know
if this is me holding on to likethe way that I was raised, but
you don't want your kid to fearyou a little bit.
Like what's your stance on that, mom therapist?
What's your stance on the kidshaving a level of fear of their
parents?

Speaker 2 (01:15:23):
Typically, when kids are afraid they're not going to
be honest, okay, they're goingto be worried about what those
consequences are.
And this is strictly me, comingfrom a therapeutic standpoint
as a child therapist.
If they're afraid, they will dowhatever they feel they need to
do, so that they don't have tosee what that consequence is

(01:15:43):
going to be, whether it's lie orwhat have you.
So, no, I don't want him to beafraid, okay, but he does know
that we are consistent and therewill be consequences to his
actions.
So that's not a fear basedthing.

(01:16:04):
That's just that if this is howit's going to be, that every
reaction is going to, everyaction is going to get a
reaction, and it may not be inyour best interest, so there's
going to be a consequence if hedoes something that he's not
supposed to do.
So if he's afraid of theconsequences, then he's probably
not going to do whatever thebehavior is, you know.

(01:16:26):
But then again he may be like,oh, I don't care, because
sometimes you get that you takethe video game.
Then it's like whatever.
And then you phone and then it'slike so when can I get my phone
back?
So when do what I asked you todo?
So you know but no, I don'twant them to be afraid.

Speaker 1 (01:16:44):
OK, and I ask that because I do hear that from a
lot of parents, even like a lotamongst my friends.
You know they want to establishthemselves as an authoritative
figure and I do still hearpeople say like, well, I'm not
your friend, I'm your parent.
So it sounds like when they sayI'm not your friend, I'm your

(01:17:06):
parent, they are trying toinstill some level of fear
within that child because no, weare not on the same level and I
think it gets um, I don't know,they think about it as being
equal to a level of respect.

Speaker 2 (01:17:24):
Right, fear equals respect is sorry for
interrupting.
I think that is respect,because he knows he'll tell you
what.
You're not one of my littlefriends, that's right.
I'm not one of your littlefriends.
So it's about respect and notfear.
You can respect someone and notbe afraid of them.
Okay, when you've worked forother people, when you've worked
for and had supervisors orbosses, you may respect them or

(01:17:47):
respect the position, but youweren't necessarily afraid of
them right, I like that, so Idon't need him to be afraid,
because people who are scaredmake bad decisions for the wrong
reasons.
Okay, and then you miss thatconnection where you can have
that open dialogue, becauseyou're afraid, and if you're

(01:18:08):
afraid of someone they're notapproachable, gotcha.

Speaker 1 (01:18:12):
I love that.
I just recently attended aconference and one of the two of
the ladies there actually focuson like behavior change and
acceptance and commitmenttherapy, but they have a focus
on what they call Blackliberation and I've never heard

(01:18:32):
of this before.
Lack liberation and I've neverheard of this before.
In our field, in the field ofABA, behavior modification I've
never heard of it before.
And basically she wasexplaining that she solely
focuses on parent training anddon't quote me, but I know
parent training is a largecomponent of what she does.

(01:18:54):
So maybe she works directlywith children, maybe not, but I
know the parent training is ahuge component and within that
parent training, the focus isBlack liberation.

(01:19:21):
The parenting styles that a lotof black parents have stem from
just generations and decades ofoppression and it stems from
slavery.
She was explaining to us youknow, think about Jim Crow,
think about slavery and the wayyou had to conduct yourself and
the behaviors that you had toengage in just to stay alive and
that was passed on fromgeneration to generation to

(01:19:42):
generation.
And she started to explain anda lot of us today, as parents,
we take on those same strategiesand we use that to parent our
children today, and when shesaid that, I was like, oh wow,
like I never thought of it thatway.
So you know, little sayingslike ruling with an iron fist

(01:20:04):
children should be seen and notheard.
She was like that comes from astance of slavery.
You know you had to do thosethings in order to stay alive.
Slavery you know you had to dothose things in order to stay
alive.
But what do you do now whenwe're not there anymore?
So that was.
It was eye-opening, because Inever bridged the gap between
the two, I never thought aboutthe two, and then it really

(01:20:27):
started making me reflect on myparenting style.
And, okay, what do I want tochange?
Because I don't want to usetrauma-based parenting.
Right, I don't want to use anyof those techniques.
So it's it's awesome to hearthat that's something that
you're doing, because now you'regiving me and the listeners a

(01:20:48):
little more insight as to howthat looks with what is your son
like gen x, gen z or somethinglike that?
Like what does that?
look like what yeah these?

Speaker 2 (01:21:02):
newer generations you know, that's that fear base,
because the slave, the in the,in the enslaved people were,
they were in fear all the time.
So and I hadn't made thatconnection with my parenting
style, but it's just, I don't,like I said, I don't want him to

(01:21:24):
be afraid, I want him to beable to talk to me and as a
clinician who's worked with kidsfor a long time, I know that's
been a big thing where you knowI would have clients that could
talk to me and tell me thingsbut they couldn't tell their
parents.
And, from having experiencedthat, I want him to be able to
talk to me and my husband's thesame way, like he will sit and

(01:21:46):
he will listen and he will talkto him about his perspective on
it.
So, and that's not something wediscussed and said, this is how
we're going to on it.
So, and that's not something wediscussed and said this is how
we're going to do it.
It just we just gel welltogether, I think, with our
different styles, because I'mmom, of course, you know at

(01:22:07):
times he's been like, you know,stop babying him or whatever,
and it's like you stop being sorough.
But I think it's about, again,balance, it's about balance.
It's about balance.

Speaker 1 (01:22:20):
Okay, and this is my last question, this is like my
favorite question and I try tosqueeze this.
I never get this far.
So sometimes I ask thisquestion, sometimes I don't, but
I'm just very interestedbecause of your experience, your
background, the systems thatyou have in place.
What advice do you wish you hadbeen given sooner about

(01:22:45):
motherhood?

Speaker 2 (01:22:49):
You know, I'm not even going to call it advice.
What I wish I would have knownabout motherhood was just how
drastically it changes yourlifestyle, where you're used to
moving and just moving and doingthings.
You can't navigate like thatanymore when you have a family,
that you do have to put othersbefore yourself and then you

(01:23:12):
have to learn how to navigate toget your interests met or get
your needs met in other ways.
So I think if that were to comewith advice, I think it would
be.
You need to know that your lifeis going to change and that you
are going to love the wayyou've never loved before and

(01:23:37):
you're going to be putting yourneeds to the side.
Whether it's permanently ortemporarily, you are going to
definitely be looking out forsomeone else's interest more so
than your own at times, forsomeone else's interest more so

(01:23:57):
than your own at times.
So that's the information Iwould have wanted.
So I'm just glad that I didhave my kids older, because all
the things I wanted toexperience I've experienced them
.
So I don't feel like I missedout on anything career-wise,
socially or anything, because Iwas ready to become a parent in
that moment.

(01:24:17):
And those sacrifices that havebeen made, they were made.

Speaker 1 (01:24:23):
Okay, I love that.
So that brings us to the end ofthe show.
I feel like we can have a wholenother episode on just
self-care, because you mentionedthat a few times.
Like find another way toprioritize yourself as a mom,
you know.
Put the needs of your childbefore yours, put the needs of
your family, you know.

(01:24:44):
So we're gonna cut it todayhere, but I would definitely
love to have you back on theshow just to go over different
ways to balance that self-carewith motherhood, because I think
a lot of us try and sometimesit's like, all right, that's not
a priority right now, it's onthe back burner.

(01:25:06):
But you have given so many gemstoday.
Um, I have like a page full ofnotes.
So I just want to say thank youso much for coming on the show,
just giving us some insight andgiving us a glimpse into your
experience.
I really appreciate it and Ijust know our listeners are

(01:25:28):
really going to benefit fromthis episode, whether they're
inspired to pursue a career orpivot in their career or maybe
change and modify some of theways that they communicate with
their children.
There are so many differentgems that you have dropped today
.
So just thank you again forjoining us.

(01:25:50):
Thank you for coming on theshow and I hope to have you back
soon.

Speaker 2 (01:25:55):
Thank you for having me.

Speaker 1 (01:25:57):
All right, have a good one.

Speaker 2 (01:25:58):
You too.

Speaker 1 (01:25:59):
Bye, bye.
Hey everyone, it's yourfavorite BCBAD here, dr DeLoren,
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(01:26:24):
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