February 26, 2024 • 27 mins
Can virtual reality be the key to unlocking empathy and inclusion in the workplace?
In this episode of the For The Creatives podcast, Elisha Taderera sits down at the Tropical Innovation Festival with the joint CEOs of People Tech Revolution, Simon and Leonie. Tune in to discover how VR can transform empathy and inclusion in workplaces.
Dive into an enlightening conversation with Simon and Leone from People Tech Revolution and discover how they're using virtual reality to break barriers and foster a culture of empathy and inclusion in workplaces. This compact yet powerful discussion sheds light on their innovative approach to promoting understanding and collaboration through VR, aiming for a future where everyone feels valued and understood.
Let us know your thoughts in the comments on our social pages.
About Our Guests
Simon and Leonie are the innovative minds behind People Tech Revolution, an organisation that is pioneering the use of virtual reality to foster empathy and inclusion in the workplace. With their diverse backgrounds in government and a strong focus on social impact within the tech industry, they have successfully transitioned from public service to entrepreneurship. Their journey includes founding the Aging Revolution and collaborating with Fortune 500 companies to facilitate cultural transformations through immersive VR experiences. Well-versed in project management and co-design, they've been recognized for creating safe, inclusive, and engaging work environments that reflect their commitment to diversity and empathetic leadership.
---
This episode was recorded in June 2023 at the Tropical Innovation Festival in Cairns QLD https://www.tropicalinnovationfestival.com.au/ .
For The Creatives Podcast
https://www.instagram.com/forthecreativespodcast/
People Tech Revolution
https://www.linkedin.com/company/people-tech-revolution/
Elisha Taderera
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hey there, welcome back to the For The Creatives podcast. My name is Elisha
Tadarera and today we have a conversation with Simon and Leonie,
the founders of PeopleTech Revolution.
Now, PeopleTech Revolution are using virtual reality to transform empathy and
inclusion in the workplace.
They're working on some exciting things. I'm looking forward to this chat.
(00:21):
This conversation was recorded at the Tropical Innovation Festival in Cairns, June 2023.
And we're going to have a chat about how VR are is revolutionizing the way we
connect with each other and the importance of having both introverts and extroverts
driving innovation. Let's get started.
So, you can't think of any introverted people either? In business? Yeah.
(00:41):
Is that because, though, the introverted people are usually more like behind
the scenes getting things done and the ones usually at the front to the loudest voice or?
So, I always joke about that. I always say I'm the best two I seek you'll ever
come across. But even though Simon and I share the title, joint CEO,
and Simon does the sales and the pitches and yeah, that's shtick, don't you?
(01:04):
Yeah. I have been known for an extrovert, but I have a woeful lack of attention to detail.
If someone sends me an email with more than three sentences, I just won't read it.
We're just talking before about with a business or a startup,
you can't just have someone who's all completely extroverted,
all completely introverted.
You need that balance and that team dynamic. I think the label introvert and
(01:24):
extrovert is quite an interesting one anyway, because I think there's all sorts of variations.
It sounds like a linear function of like ultra extrovert. Yeah, the one or the other.
And I think there's all sorts of bubbles and loops.
I know some people are extrovert in the right scenario and introvert.
I know if I put someone on stage, it could be a super extrovert.
Put them in a room full of a thousand people.
And it's like, yeah. They could be the opposite. We went to this really great
(01:45):
workshop around neurodivergence, and there's an awesome professor out of QUT
and her partner, who used to be, or I think he still is, he's a tech evangelist
at Google, and he's pretty autistic.
And the way that they talked about autism was not that it was this linear spectrum,
which is, I think, what a lot of people have in their head, but much more of
this circle where we are high on some actors and lower on others.
(02:09):
And I think we've put together our team intuitively, but when I think about
it, and when I think about that trust piece that Baden was talking about,
that's been really important.
But we have pulled together a team where we are are extraordinarily complementary in our strengths.
Each other we're lucky yeah that's so good yeah
i call myself an ambivert it's like the
(02:30):
middle ground sort of because i don't get energized by people but there's a
few key people i'm like i can be around and we recharge each other for a bit
of time yeah i need to go for a walk go to the beach just be by myself just
but then i'm not an introvert where i need that all the time like i love people
and i love being around people still i think one thing you'll find and connor is luke Was it Luke?
(02:50):
Safety. From Safety Culture. Culture. I'm really bad with names.
This is interesting this morning.
And obviously, I'm not like this. And sometimes I question myself as a founder
or co-founder is some people get really into business and that's all they do 24-7.
I can get caught up in that a bit, but I'm still pretty good at not doing that.
I think maybe that comes with being a bit older, being co-founders at a bit
(03:10):
older. Sounds healthy. And you have, yeah, it is. And you have this life balance.
So I do think you could be a really big extrovert. I am more than happy to go out seven days a week.
Drinking till two in the morning mentally my body
can't hang that anymore and i've had to like eat back otherwise i just
kind of like collapse in the heat but nature and ocean is
really important to me so having a break from work and but
(03:31):
not a break from work as in doing something else on a computer screen
is that going and seeing nature going kayaking going
free diving going to the gym doing stupid strongman competitions
i think and so i think that's even extroverts in
inverted commas and introverts have to have breaks from they're doing
as a startup yeah i think you have have to actively pursue that
well i just think about the team again and i think well we'll work remotely
(03:52):
so that's a challenge sometimes not coming together face
to face yeah every week some of our team members do and and that's great but
we as a whole we don't and then we try and kind of build in how do we do social
stuff not just work stuff yeah because we know that everybody has a different
way of communicating and thinking
we have a bunch of different ways of doing that with the team too.
(04:15):
So we've got Discord, but we do email and some of the team prefer just to like
do a video call or have chat or.
Yeah, so I think we try and mix that up and be good role models.
Yeah. I think also be inclusive. So I think there's interesting discussions
already. What does that look like?
You were talking about what Baden said. The trust piece. The trust piece.
And we've kind of done it accidentally just because of who we are.
(04:37):
And it's just the whole creating a safe culture to thrive in and not being afraid
of speaking up, saying an idea.
I mean, we've had some profound moments as a startup. We've had a member who's
transitioning, and they told us before they told their parents.
Oh, wow. But celebrated it in front of the whole team. And we're like,
I'm telling you guys first, it's amazing. My name's now this.
(04:58):
And we're like, that's amazing. Wow.
It's like, you're the first people I've ever told. And so to create a culture
where the whole team was on the call, to feel safe enough to say that in front
of everybody is quite a special moment. But I think we try and foster that safety.
And also, when we do try and do social things, it's normally about getting to
know each other a bit more, using some of those interesting online tools.
We were on an accelerator program earlier this year, and they used a tool called Gather Round.
(05:21):
And we've like we so we we've used it a few times
it's really great actually we kind of it's like fun social things
to do with a team who's remote it works really well really
well and so we've done that a bit and i think the inclusion piece
for us is about always remembering you know
because the vr that we make is about inclusion yeah and
without that lived experience how do you make
(05:41):
a good tech product you can't i don't think you can so
we try really really hard it's always
in the the front of our mind when we're employing people
the makeup of our team who's on
the team yeah where they come from how do
we how and how do we do better because you know we don't
have it right but we're trying really hard to do better all the time and it
(06:02):
can make things difficult sometimes because obviously when you advertise for
a job or when you try to find people especially in the tech world i'm sure lots
of tech companies find it you know there's a it's been going around maybe not
so much now since the crypto crash and there's lots of people for jobs but just
before that There wasn't,
people were looking for game designers and programmers and.
And if you put a job out there, especially as a tech company,
(06:23):
for every 100 people who identify as male, we get two women.
Yeah. And if you're trying to create an equitable team, that in itself can become
a challenge. So it might take longer to recruit someone.
It depends on what you think of as equitable too.
Because it's equitable 50-50.
I wouldn't say, but it's somewhere close to that, I would have thought.
(06:46):
I think when it comes to gender, we've probably got 50-50 in terms of male-female.
We've also got, we've probably got like, actually it wouldn't be 50-50 because
we've got non-funnery too. So it's not 50-50, right?
Because I haven't, like, I don't have any thoughts around this.
I've just got just a question.
It's like, if everything has to be 50-50, how do we do that?
(07:09):
I understand bringing more voices and more inclusion and bringing that to the table.
But like, what's the... And there's so many, there's so many variables.
I just saw Taika Waititi talking about diversity today on Instagram.
And he was saying, yeah, like diversity is not that we have like one person
of every color in a movie.
Diversity is actually, I have a Polynesian writer, writers who are writing Polynesian
(07:35):
stories for a Polynesian crew and a Polynesian group of actors,
Polynesian, you know, everything.
So we're telling these stories. So I think representation is something that's
quite different to our ideas around diversity and inclusion.
Yeah. We strive for it, and I think what's happened for us, because now we have
(07:55):
a reputation of being a safe employer,
that we get people coming to us now saying like, oh, I really like the work
that you do, and I've heard about what you're working on, and we want to be a part of that.
So we probably do have way more women than a lot of tech companies.
Yeah. It's kind of terrifying sometimes because people are like,
I never want to leave your company.
(08:17):
You should kind of like try to do that.
As long as it's not becoming a cult. We're really lucky.
We have women, we have young people, we have older people, we have people of
colour where, you know, we're trying to reach out and where we don't have them
on our team, then what we try and do is we make partnerships.
So, you know, you've got to look at being creative when I think when it comes
(08:38):
to diversity and inclusion. Yeah.
I think you guys are doing an amazing job and no one's got it perfect or got it exactly right.
I think personally, I've been involved in companies where they're the companies
that are trying to tick a box or like have one of every person on there.
There's one company I worked for a while ago. They,
As soon as I was employed, they put me on and I wouldn't have thought anything
of it until I heard some conversations behind the scenes.
(09:00):
But they put me, they got photos done. They put me like on every sort of,
and I'm like, I'm Australian, but dark skin color.
But they put me on like every advert and like, you know, a lot of their materials
and everything. And that's amazing.
We literally just made a piece of VR that's about diversity quotas.
And actually some people in our team have even experienced that where they've been employed.
(09:23):
Because of a diversity quota. Yeah. And that's not a nice feeling,
you know, to kind of think that the reason that you've been employed is not
because of the skill or like what you bring.
It's just about the way you look and your skin colour. It's not fun.
So, yeah, some people get it really wrong.
We're a few minutes in. For those who don't know.
(09:46):
How long have you been here for?
Well i was just going with it because this has been such a natural conversation
the others have been really good but sometimes it starts off too formal so it's
like oh we'll just start off really
informal and see where it goes but for those listening what do you do,
so we've got simone i need sorry we've
(10:09):
got simon i'm a professional nrl player like you've
never ever known no i'm not rich um we make
virtual reality scenarios around shifting culture
and behavior in companies and in organizations so
you can actually experience what it's like to be someone else so you wear virtual
reality you can step into someone else's shoes and live someone's life become
(10:29):
someone else experience things you haven't experienced before i will say this
as a white man especially as a white guy you can experience what it's like to
be a woman or someone with a disability or a person of colour
or a member of the LGBTQ community and some of the things you experience and
some of the prejudices you experience at work that could be major or just little microaggressions.
(10:49):
Little gnarky things that were said and it's like using that
emotion and feelings one of the best things about virtual reality is you
can suspend belief and become something else
or be something else if no one's ever tried it i would recommend trying richie's
plank it's another brisbane-based company your brain tells you you're in a room
your body tells you you're on top of a skyscraper your heart rate will increase
you will sweat your hands will shake apparently unless you're a psychopath then
(11:12):
you just laugh and jump which idea which is questionable and we use that to
to basically try and create better places to work.
I think we've actually been working on our mission statement recently to try
and figure out what it actually is.
Yeah, yeah, we did it with the team. So we've been talking about that idea of,
you know, the VR that we make is about deepening your understanding of yourself
but also for other people.
(11:33):
So it's having that, yeah, that two-way street, I guess, around and hoping that
you can take that into – most of the work that we do is based around workplace
culture, so taking that into the workplace.
Workplace so you've got a more productive workplace build better teams
have people be nicer to each other yeah so going
back for the first thing you said have those introverts or
have the quieter people in the room have their voice heard yeah no they have
(11:56):
their voice heard or if someone is has neuro you know is neurodiverse or has
autism notice that and give them a safe space to say things or how do you create
a safe space to say things and we're also looking other things like you know
how do you de-escalate the situation so if you have a if you have a tense head
situation and someone says something to you. Yeah.
How do you deescalate that situation? As a manager, as a leader,
what do you do in that situation?
(12:17):
So we're actually working on a moment, a series of VR scenarios called Lyft VR.
Yeah. Which is basically, imagine, you know, you're a senior manager or you're
an executive in a Lyft and someone comes in and says something to you.
How do you respond instantly? Or someone, you overhear a conversation with some
undertones of racism or bias towards someone.
You know you should say something, but you might not be equipped to know what
(12:38):
to say. So what we do is you can actually, you're equipped to know what to say and you can practice it.
So you record that, you can play it back until you have it down pat.
Yeah, so you can have that opportunity to really practice those difficult conversations
or those moments. I remember when I was in one of your, I think,
sessions in Bundaberg and hearing that about the conflict management as well.
I was like, that is such a good idea.
(13:00):
I myself think I'm not amazing, but I'm okay with conflicts.
I don't back away from it.
But I've been in workplaces where so many people avoid it because they just
don't know how to deal with situations from managers to whoever.
So I think it's amazing being able to use VR to experience those situations.
So with people tech revolution, what is one of
the current challenges that you're facing at the moment in the
(13:22):
business i'd say a major one is at the
moment our module is basically agency so we
work with companies who can afford to pay us 50 60
000 an app and normally a project you're looking
at two or three apps so it's expensive right yeah and so
we work with big we have work with big fortune by 100 companies with
big hospitals and healthcare organizations a really good one
(13:43):
we've worked with in australia's martyr hospital but we
know every time we work with a climb we want to go what's the
problem you're trying to solve can is the best solution for this
problem virtual reality if it's not we'll be honest and say it's not.
Because you know make a youtube video or do something else but if
it is virtual reality we then go through a whole process we're
really proud of our design process yeah which goes through
a whole discovery phase around what's the actual problem what does a
(14:05):
success outcome look like and who are the people who have
lived experience that we can talk to or interview
yeah make sure that what we make is real so
it's kind of like core to everything we've done in our
working lives is work with
people who have lived experience and the stories of people to make sure what we do is
genuine yeah and so and so we have all
(14:26):
this experience we've talked to thousands of people probably
over the past few years of doing this vr every company has roughly
the same problems it's nuanced so we make a
nuanced app it'll be their branding and their language around the finance
industry or the it industry or the pharmaceutical industry we have
companies reach out to us they might be smaller there might be like 50 people 100
000 even 2 000 people right and they'll be like i can't afford
(14:46):
a quarter million dollar project on virtual reality yeah yeah
where can i get this training and so there's a
massive need for it and there's a desire for it and so we're now
creating a library that's going to be coming out later this year
so anyone can access so probably our biggest problem at the moment is how we
transition and fund building apps for current clients and sustaining revenue
(15:07):
revenue coming in and also having the team build apps for us as in like the
IP that we want to create so we can put out there so it's more accessible to
everybody and more and more companies can use this kind of training.
So Leone's been working on all these scripts and all sorts of things.
Yeah, that's awesome. About how we can get that done.
Yeah, because we've bootstrapped to date. So everything that we've done has
been because we've been able to sell to clients and to be able to make these custom builds.
(15:31):
But, yeah, we want to move away from custom builds altogether.
We just want to also, like, have this other option. Make things more accessible. Yeah.
So where did PeopleTech Revolution start? Where did it start from? Like, what was the seed?
Oh, I'm going to give Monica Brantley a shout-out if she ever listens to this podcast. Yeah.
So I think I called her Monica 2.0 once because she seemed to be,
like, everywhere. It's quite incredible. She never sleeps.
(15:53):
So our first company was called The Ageing Revolution. We still have a company
called The Ageing Revolution.
Yeah. And it started back in 2015 when I was working for, I was running a seniors
card for the New South Wales government.
Leonie was running the office for seniors in Queensland.
And we were looking at the system around growing older and ageing.
Something has to change.
It's all negative. It's all bad. It's all just like- Old people are a burden.
(16:15):
Rather than First Nations people in this country, it's just like the wisdom and the knowledge.
The respect yeah how can we get that back and all
we do is like stick old people in a home and then just like
be quiet and die literally and if
you can die quickly that's great for our business ball which is a whole different
conversation thank you and so we went
(16:35):
on a road trip came back realized there's like 2.7 million
carriers in australia and we're like when they were using
like excel spreadsheets and post-it notes to actually go like who is this
person and so what do we do we said we're making it
should there should be an app about this and so we ended up making an app that's how
we got into making tech so we worked with qut and a
whole bunch of carers and co-designed an app to help care
(16:56):
be more person-centered about who are you you know are you
simon who has motor neurone disease and you take these
drugs or are you simon who used to like free diving and exercise
and this kind of art this kind of music and don't play coldplay otherwise
you'll just want to die straight away that's how we go into
tech monica just goes like like just make it then like oh
okay so we did fast forward heaps of a
(17:17):
few mobile apps and a few co-founder epic
failures that we all seem to have we got into people tech
because we made an app around endometriosis that.
Wasn't age-based and so we need a new company name and at
the same time we were looking at how we can create empathy in aged
care about the big problems you have in aged care yeah it
was like virtual reality could do that and that's how we got into
(17:37):
that's how people people get started is how we got into virtual
reality and then we and we were really lucky to
be on with that app that simon was talking about that did
fail well the chi founder relationship failed spectacular but
we're still like but we've still been working on that idea but we
were lucky enough to be on the remarkable program which was
really gave us brought us together with a
(17:59):
whole bunch of people who were like-minded about doing something.
Doing something in tech that's good for people yeah that's
around you know people with a disability or people who are older or yeah solving
some of those problems so we were really lucky with that too i think and then
so the whole it's not our idea around mutuality for empathy but then we worked
with a couple of friends and they've been friends for ages and they were going
(18:21):
through their own co-found stuff and.
Help we've got a client and we haven't got anyone to build this
thing or we don't know how to make it or design it and so
i remember we were on a beach in perth and we're like yeah yeah
we could do that and then we're like we could project manage that and then
it's like can we yeah here you go and then we did and so we actually had a guy
(18:42):
working for us at the time called paul frame who was an intern from sae in brisbane
and he doing a games degree he knew virtual reality and we're like hey if we
co-design this and come up with all this stuff could you make it he was We were
like, yeah, that's not good.
And so we did. And we kind of muddled our way through to make a VR app for like
one of the biggest beverage companies in the world. Oh, wow.
(19:02):
And that's how we started.
Yeah, I love that. That's crazy. It is.
And then we're like, oh, I can't get into this. Okay, let's do this.
So you didn't map out a 20-page business plan first and go through all those stages?
No, not at all. No. I don't even think we really thought that that would be
something that we would just keep doing.
(19:22):
I think we thought we were helping out. And then over time, it's just, it's evolved.
It just evolved. I think where the people that we were doing it with were much
more focused on innovation.
And so, and we're just, we're good at managing projects.
We're good at it. Like we can get them done on time and we know how to pull a team together.
And so that's been our strength. And we put those two things together,
(19:46):
that cutting edge innovation stuff to drive everything that we do to keep it
kind of keep it fresh. Don't just sit back and kind of think that this is going
to be the one thing that you do.
VR is not an industry where you can sit still for very long.
It changes and shifts really quickly. So, we need that.
But we also, in order to be able to be a successful company,
you have to be able to like to paint a product and know what you're doing.
(20:07):
I have a question there. Talking about VR, maybe more AR.
It's not my space exactly. But Apple, they just recently released their Vision Pro. Right.
I haven't actually had a full look at it but I've heard so much about it,
does that benefit what you're doing is there any way you would use that or yes
(20:27):
it does benefit us massively because I think someone actually said to us when
Apple makes something it's real,
and that's kind of like what do you mean by that the iPhone everyone's got a smart phone.
The iWatch everyone's got a smart watch now so Apple have now made a VR headset
except, you know, it still costs about $5,500 Australian dollars.
(20:49):
So, you know, access will be limited, but you'll have all of Apple people.
Yeah, but you know VR's not going away.
I think if to see a company like that invest in it, then you know this is tech
that's going to be around for a little while. So I think what Apple have done is really interesting.
There is a big difference between consumer VR and enterprise VR.
So more and more companies are getting into VR. And actually data and data protection and how people,
(21:13):
you know, because the amount of companies we speak to, especially big financial
institutions, I was talking to some of the big financial institutions about
training and they're like, we will have nothing from Oculus in our building,
let alone in a training environment.
So there are lots of concerns, right? I mean, we've been part of the XRSI,
which was until recently stood for Extended Reality Safety Initiative,
(21:37):
but is now rebranded to Extended Reality Safety Intelligence.
Okay. But it's all, and we've been standing up an Australian entity around that,
which is all around safety.
Safety in the metaverse, safety for people who are using extended reality.
And I think it's a legitimate concern to think about those things.
Actually, it's my first experience of this.
(21:58):
Yeah, that's right. It was your very first experience of like sexual harassment.
So I was in Rec Room. So people aren't familiar.
Rec Room is basically a metaverse of a style on Quest 2 headsets.
You can go in there. You can become an avatar.
You can run around, play games, meet mates, play paintball.
It's paintball, isn't it, we played? Paintball.
(22:19):
Leonie turns into a psycho yeah you do you double
shotgun people to the face and celebrate and it's very scary and
so i came
out of my room i've also came out of my closet and that sounded weird
but came out and these two blokes came up to me or we're like all right how
you doing well do you want to come into what you're doing hey do you want to
come into our room oh you look really good oh nice tits i was like nice tits
(22:43):
it's really freaking me out and then they kept on being really they were really
being really rude and coarse yeah and i was like okay i'm I'm going to get back into my base.
I looked in the mirror and my avatar, they'd automatically chosen.
I hadn't done anything. It was a woman.
Wow. I was like, Oh, that's what it feels like. And those were real. Were they real people?
They'll be real people. Like in avatars. In avatars. Yeah. And basically they were awful to me.
(23:05):
And my avatar was, I was an African American woman, very voluptuous.
For some reason, that's just what was picked. And you're supposed to go through
the whole thing and make it. Customize. Yeah. Yeah. So lots of people seem to
make it in their own image.
Other people make it in the complete opposite. Anyway, that was the first time
I kind of like properly felt and this is this goes back to that whole which
is why we do it in VR this is why a lot of the VR we do you embody someone else
(23:27):
so you actually you'll look in a mirror and you'll become someone else yeah,
there's a really interesting Stanford study that says it takes about 30 seconds
to suspend belief about who you are,
it's kind of freaky but it was the first thing I was like why are they being
so nasty what are they saying this for this is crazy and I felt and I ran away
and I was like oh man this is what people feel this is what many women feel every day,
so it was quite shocking So that's another thing.
(23:49):
That's why VR safety is so important because if people don't know how to use
it or if you have young kids in it, it can be a really scary place.
Well, I was just listening to the story of the guys that created Club Penguin,
which isn't VR, but it was like, you know, one of the first biggest sort of
like kids, you know, what do you call it? Like a...
(24:09):
PVP? No, no, no. There is a webinar.
What is Club Penguin? I don't even know what it is. It's okay,
I don't expect you to know.
It's a virtual world. It's a virtual world. It's a cartoon virtual world.
I think that qualifies as a metaverse.
Yeah, it was probably one of the first. It was massive. And the two people that
(24:31):
had the idea, they went out looking for external funding.
I can't remember the whole story, but they ended up, the company they were working
for that they were going to leave to start it, actually funded it.
But a big thing was the safety and the privacy and
they ended up selling it like when it had been doing really well
but they wanted to sell it to a company that could make sure to
put in the safety measures in place that it needed so they sold it to Disney
you know I think those things are really important to be thinking about like
(24:53):
we need all that luckily we have a great e-safety commissioner in Australia
it's awesome well we have gone a bit over time but I've got one key question
I want to ask you both what would you say your superpowers are individually Like,
what's the thing you're really good at, you thrive in, your real key strength?
Oh, I can tell you what Simon's superpower is. Yeah, do you want to say it for
(25:13):
each other? Say it for each other. Yeah, you tell me, Rowan.
I think Simon's superpower is that he connects really quickly with people in
a way that's not, it's super genuine.
So, Simon will like, you know, you can be best friends with Simon really,
really fast. And I really think that's a great superpower to have.
Yeah. I think you've got a complimentary one then, which is like,
you connect people much more deeply than me. But for a longer period of time,
(25:36):
between us, we get the intro and the really good, deep understanding of the team.
Yeah. I also think my superpower is spreadsheet numbers, quick thinking, problem solving.
Yeah. And Leona's superpower is translating all that into how can we actually
create something that's functional and works.
Yeah. And the team understands.
So I think that's powerful. Yeah, that's awesome. Super.
(26:00):
Well, thank you for sharing a bit of what you're doing and a small bit of the journey.
Doesn't count. Oh, it does. Come on. That's how you connect quickly with people.
Thank you. It does help sometimes. Thank you.
Got him. So, to finish off, we're at the Tropical Innovation Festival.
(26:23):
And I just wanted to ask a couple of things. If you were to finish the sentence,
Tropical Innovation Festival is, What would you say?
I think the best innovation festival I've been to in Australia,
if not the world probably, is very informal and I like it's very well run. Yeah.
But seemingly a bit loose.
Yeah. I would totally agree. I would say, yeah, Tropical Innovation Festival
(26:46):
is the best innovation festival to come to in Australia.
And that's not just because, you know, it's in Cairns.
That helps. But, yeah, I love the conversations that happen.
And I like the way people get up and talk and it doesn't feel like it's forced.
It feels like people are just coming from their own experience and they feel
(27:07):
comfortable enough to be able to just talk easily.
Yeah. That's great. I love that too.
That's one other thing. It's also one of the things we always do with our work
is try and create a safe space for our team and other people.
I think they do a very good job of creating a safe space for everyone here and
to be included and felt heard and I think that's really good.
I was in a one-hour mastermind room with the founder here and they opened up
(27:28):
and shared about their journey, but just the way that they felt okay and comfortable
to open up to this other group of founders and entrepreneurs about some really
vulnerable and deep stuff is just like, you don't get that everywhere.
You're not going to just go to any event and have people sharing some of those raw moments. So, yeah.
Yeah, no. So, you know, kudos to Tara and Kate and the team because I think
(27:48):
they make it look easy and you know it's not. Yeah, I agree. Yeah.
Hey there, welcome back to the For The Creatives podcast. My name is Elisha
Tadarera and today we have a conversation with Simon and Leonie,
the founders of PeopleTech Revolution.
Now, PeopleTech Revolution are using virtual reality to transform empathy and
inclusion in the workplace.
They're working on some exciting things. I'm looking forward to this chat.
(00:21):
This conversation was recorded at the Tropical Innovation Festival in Cairns, June 2023.
And we're going to have a chat about how VR are is revolutionizing the way we
connect with each other and the importance of having both introverts and extroverts
driving innovation. Let's get started.
So, you can't think of any introverted people either? In business? Yeah.
(00:41):
Is that because, though, the introverted people are usually more like behind
the scenes getting things done and the ones usually at the front to the loudest voice or?
So, I always joke about that. I always say I'm the best two I seek you'll ever
come across. But even though Simon and I share the title, joint CEO,
and Simon does the sales and the pitches and yeah, that's shtick, don't you?
(01:04):
Yeah. I have been known for an extrovert, but I have a woeful lack of attention to detail.
If someone sends me an email with more than three sentences, I just won't read it.
We're just talking before about with a business or a startup,
you can't just have someone who's all completely extroverted,
all completely introverted.
You need that balance and that team dynamic. I think the label introvert and
(01:24):
extrovert is quite an interesting one anyway, because I think there's all sorts of variations.
It sounds like a linear function of like ultra extrovert. Yeah, the one or the other.
And I think there's all sorts of bubbles and loops.
I know some people are extrovert in the right scenario and introvert.
I know if I put someone on stage, it could be a super extrovert.
Put them in a room full of a thousand people.
And it's like, yeah. They could be the opposite. We went to this really great
(01:45):
workshop around neurodivergence, and there's an awesome professor out of QUT
and her partner, who used to be, or I think he still is, he's a tech evangelist
at Google, and he's pretty autistic.
And the way that they talked about autism was not that it was this linear spectrum,
which is, I think, what a lot of people have in their head, but much more of
this circle where we are high on some actors and lower on others.
(02:09):
And I think we've put together our team intuitively, but when I think about
it, and when I think about that trust piece that Baden was talking about,
that's been really important.
But we have pulled together a team where we are are extraordinarily complementary in our strengths.
Each other we're lucky yeah that's so good yeah
i call myself an ambivert it's like the
(02:30):
middle ground sort of because i don't get energized by people but there's a
few key people i'm like i can be around and we recharge each other for a bit
of time yeah i need to go for a walk go to the beach just be by myself just
but then i'm not an introvert where i need that all the time like i love people
and i love being around people still i think one thing you'll find and connor is luke Was it Luke?
(02:50):
Safety. From Safety Culture. Culture. I'm really bad with names.
This is interesting this morning.
And obviously, I'm not like this. And sometimes I question myself as a founder
or co-founder is some people get really into business and that's all they do 24-7.
I can get caught up in that a bit, but I'm still pretty good at not doing that.
I think maybe that comes with being a bit older, being co-founders at a bit
(03:10):
older. Sounds healthy. And you have, yeah, it is. And you have this life balance.
So I do think you could be a really big extrovert. I am more than happy to go out seven days a week.
Drinking till two in the morning mentally my body
can't hang that anymore and i've had to like eat back otherwise i just
kind of like collapse in the heat but nature and ocean is
really important to me so having a break from work and but
(03:31):
not a break from work as in doing something else on a computer screen
is that going and seeing nature going kayaking going
free diving going to the gym doing stupid strongman competitions
i think and so i think that's even extroverts in
inverted commas and introverts have to have breaks from they're doing
as a startup yeah i think you have have to actively pursue that
well i just think about the team again and i think well we'll work remotely
(03:52):
so that's a challenge sometimes not coming together face
to face yeah every week some of our team members do and and that's great but
we as a whole we don't and then we try and kind of build in how do we do social
stuff not just work stuff yeah because we know that everybody has a different
way of communicating and thinking
we have a bunch of different ways of doing that with the team too.
(04:15):
So we've got Discord, but we do email and some of the team prefer just to like
do a video call or have chat or.
Yeah, so I think we try and mix that up and be good role models.
Yeah. I think also be inclusive. So I think there's interesting discussions
already. What does that look like?
You were talking about what Baden said. The trust piece. The trust piece.
And we've kind of done it accidentally just because of who we are.
(04:37):
And it's just the whole creating a safe culture to thrive in and not being afraid
of speaking up, saying an idea.
I mean, we've had some profound moments as a startup. We've had a member who's
transitioning, and they told us before they told their parents.
Oh, wow. But celebrated it in front of the whole team. And we're like,
I'm telling you guys first, it's amazing. My name's now this.
(04:58):
And we're like, that's amazing. Wow.
It's like, you're the first people I've ever told. And so to create a culture
where the whole team was on the call, to feel safe enough to say that in front
of everybody is quite a special moment. But I think we try and foster that safety.
And also, when we do try and do social things, it's normally about getting to
know each other a bit more, using some of those interesting online tools.
We were on an accelerator program earlier this year, and they used a tool called Gather Round.
(05:21):
And we've like we so we we've used it a few times
it's really great actually we kind of it's like fun social things
to do with a team who's remote it works really well really
well and so we've done that a bit and i think the inclusion piece
for us is about always remembering you know
because the vr that we make is about inclusion yeah and
without that lived experience how do you make
(05:41):
a good tech product you can't i don't think you can so
we try really really hard it's always
in the the front of our mind when we're employing people
the makeup of our team who's on
the team yeah where they come from how do
we how and how do we do better because you know we don't
have it right but we're trying really hard to do better all the time and it
(06:02):
can make things difficult sometimes because obviously when you advertise for
a job or when you try to find people especially in the tech world i'm sure lots
of tech companies find it you know there's a it's been going around maybe not
so much now since the crypto crash and there's lots of people for jobs but just
before that There wasn't,
people were looking for game designers and programmers and.
And if you put a job out there, especially as a tech company,
(06:23):
for every 100 people who identify as male, we get two women.
Yeah. And if you're trying to create an equitable team, that in itself can become
a challenge. So it might take longer to recruit someone.
It depends on what you think of as equitable too.
Because it's equitable 50-50.
I wouldn't say, but it's somewhere close to that, I would have thought.
(06:46):
I think when it comes to gender, we've probably got 50-50 in terms of male-female.
We've also got, we've probably got like, actually it wouldn't be 50-50 because
we've got non-funnery too. So it's not 50-50, right?
Because I haven't, like, I don't have any thoughts around this.
I've just got just a question.
It's like, if everything has to be 50-50, how do we do that?
(07:09):
I understand bringing more voices and more inclusion and bringing that to the table.
But like, what's the... And there's so many, there's so many variables.
I just saw Taika Waititi talking about diversity today on Instagram.
And he was saying, yeah, like diversity is not that we have like one person
of every color in a movie.
Diversity is actually, I have a Polynesian writer, writers who are writing Polynesian
(07:35):
stories for a Polynesian crew and a Polynesian group of actors,
Polynesian, you know, everything.
So we're telling these stories. So I think representation is something that's
quite different to our ideas around diversity and inclusion.
Yeah. We strive for it, and I think what's happened for us, because now we have
(07:55):
a reputation of being a safe employer,
that we get people coming to us now saying like, oh, I really like the work
that you do, and I've heard about what you're working on, and we want to be a part of that.
So we probably do have way more women than a lot of tech companies.
Yeah. It's kind of terrifying sometimes because people are like,
I never want to leave your company.
(08:17):
You should kind of like try to do that.
As long as it's not becoming a cult. We're really lucky.
We have women, we have young people, we have older people, we have people of
colour where, you know, we're trying to reach out and where we don't have them
on our team, then what we try and do is we make partnerships.
So, you know, you've got to look at being creative when I think when it comes
(08:38):
to diversity and inclusion. Yeah.
I think you guys are doing an amazing job and no one's got it perfect or got it exactly right.
I think personally, I've been involved in companies where they're the companies
that are trying to tick a box or like have one of every person on there.
There's one company I worked for a while ago. They,
As soon as I was employed, they put me on and I wouldn't have thought anything
of it until I heard some conversations behind the scenes.
(09:00):
But they put me, they got photos done. They put me like on every sort of,
and I'm like, I'm Australian, but dark skin color.
But they put me on like every advert and like, you know, a lot of their materials
and everything. And that's amazing.
We literally just made a piece of VR that's about diversity quotas.
And actually some people in our team have even experienced that where they've been employed.
(09:23):
Because of a diversity quota. Yeah. And that's not a nice feeling,
you know, to kind of think that the reason that you've been employed is not
because of the skill or like what you bring.
It's just about the way you look and your skin colour. It's not fun.
So, yeah, some people get it really wrong.
We're a few minutes in. For those who don't know.
(09:46):
How long have you been here for?
Well i was just going with it because this has been such a natural conversation
the others have been really good but sometimes it starts off too formal so it's
like oh we'll just start off really
informal and see where it goes but for those listening what do you do,
so we've got simone i need sorry we've
(10:09):
got simon i'm a professional nrl player like you've
never ever known no i'm not rich um we make
virtual reality scenarios around shifting culture
and behavior in companies and in organizations so
you can actually experience what it's like to be someone else so you wear virtual
reality you can step into someone else's shoes and live someone's life become
(10:29):
someone else experience things you haven't experienced before i will say this
as a white man especially as a white guy you can experience what it's like to
be a woman or someone with a disability or a person of colour
or a member of the LGBTQ community and some of the things you experience and
some of the prejudices you experience at work that could be major or just little microaggressions.
(10:49):
Little gnarky things that were said and it's like using that
emotion and feelings one of the best things about virtual reality is you
can suspend belief and become something else
or be something else if no one's ever tried it i would recommend trying richie's
plank it's another brisbane-based company your brain tells you you're in a room
your body tells you you're on top of a skyscraper your heart rate will increase
you will sweat your hands will shake apparently unless you're a psychopath then
(11:12):
you just laugh and jump which idea which is questionable and we use that to
to basically try and create better places to work.
I think we've actually been working on our mission statement recently to try
and figure out what it actually is.
Yeah, yeah, we did it with the team. So we've been talking about that idea of,
you know, the VR that we make is about deepening your understanding of yourself
but also for other people.
(11:33):
So it's having that, yeah, that two-way street, I guess, around and hoping that
you can take that into – most of the work that we do is based around workplace
culture, so taking that into the workplace.
Workplace so you've got a more productive workplace build better teams
have people be nicer to each other yeah so going
back for the first thing you said have those introverts or
have the quieter people in the room have their voice heard yeah no they have
(11:56):
their voice heard or if someone is has neuro you know is neurodiverse or has
autism notice that and give them a safe space to say things or how do you create
a safe space to say things and we're also looking other things like you know
how do you de-escalate the situation so if you have a if you have a tense head
situation and someone says something to you. Yeah.
How do you deescalate that situation? As a manager, as a leader,
what do you do in that situation?
(12:17):
So we're actually working on a moment, a series of VR scenarios called Lyft VR.
Yeah. Which is basically, imagine, you know, you're a senior manager or you're
an executive in a Lyft and someone comes in and says something to you.
How do you respond instantly? Or someone, you overhear a conversation with some
undertones of racism or bias towards someone.
You know you should say something, but you might not be equipped to know what
(12:38):
to say. So what we do is you can actually, you're equipped to know what to say and you can practice it.
So you record that, you can play it back until you have it down pat.
Yeah, so you can have that opportunity to really practice those difficult conversations
or those moments. I remember when I was in one of your, I think,
sessions in Bundaberg and hearing that about the conflict management as well.
I was like, that is such a good idea.
(13:00):
I myself think I'm not amazing, but I'm okay with conflicts.
I don't back away from it.
But I've been in workplaces where so many people avoid it because they just
don't know how to deal with situations from managers to whoever.
So I think it's amazing being able to use VR to experience those situations.
So with people tech revolution, what is one of
the current challenges that you're facing at the moment in the
(13:22):
business i'd say a major one is at the
moment our module is basically agency so we
work with companies who can afford to pay us 50 60
000 an app and normally a project you're looking
at two or three apps so it's expensive right yeah and so
we work with big we have work with big fortune by 100 companies with
big hospitals and healthcare organizations a really good one
(13:43):
we've worked with in australia's martyr hospital but we
know every time we work with a climb we want to go what's the
problem you're trying to solve can is the best solution for this
problem virtual reality if it's not we'll be honest and say it's not.
Because you know make a youtube video or do something else but if
it is virtual reality we then go through a whole process we're
really proud of our design process yeah which goes through
a whole discovery phase around what's the actual problem what does a
(14:05):
success outcome look like and who are the people who have
lived experience that we can talk to or interview
yeah make sure that what we make is real so
it's kind of like core to everything we've done in our
working lives is work with
people who have lived experience and the stories of people to make sure what we do is
genuine yeah and so and so we have all
(14:26):
this experience we've talked to thousands of people probably
over the past few years of doing this vr every company has roughly
the same problems it's nuanced so we make a
nuanced app it'll be their branding and their language around the finance
industry or the it industry or the pharmaceutical industry we have
companies reach out to us they might be smaller there might be like 50 people 100
000 even 2 000 people right and they'll be like i can't afford
(14:46):
a quarter million dollar project on virtual reality yeah yeah
where can i get this training and so there's a
massive need for it and there's a desire for it and so we're now
creating a library that's going to be coming out later this year
so anyone can access so probably our biggest problem at the moment is how we
transition and fund building apps for current clients and sustaining revenue
(15:07):
revenue coming in and also having the team build apps for us as in like the
IP that we want to create so we can put out there so it's more accessible to
everybody and more and more companies can use this kind of training.
So Leone's been working on all these scripts and all sorts of things.
Yeah, that's awesome. About how we can get that done.
Yeah, because we've bootstrapped to date. So everything that we've done has
been because we've been able to sell to clients and to be able to make these custom builds.
(15:31):
But, yeah, we want to move away from custom builds altogether.
We just want to also, like, have this other option. Make things more accessible. Yeah.
So where did PeopleTech Revolution start? Where did it start from? Like, what was the seed?
Oh, I'm going to give Monica Brantley a shout-out if she ever listens to this podcast. Yeah.
So I think I called her Monica 2.0 once because she seemed to be,
like, everywhere. It's quite incredible. She never sleeps.
(15:53):
So our first company was called The Ageing Revolution. We still have a company
called The Ageing Revolution.
Yeah. And it started back in 2015 when I was working for, I was running a seniors
card for the New South Wales government.
Leonie was running the office for seniors in Queensland.
And we were looking at the system around growing older and ageing.
Something has to change.
It's all negative. It's all bad. It's all just like- Old people are a burden.
(16:15):
Rather than First Nations people in this country, it's just like the wisdom and the knowledge.
The respect yeah how can we get that back and all
we do is like stick old people in a home and then just like
be quiet and die literally and if
you can die quickly that's great for our business ball which is a whole different
conversation thank you and so we went
(16:35):
on a road trip came back realized there's like 2.7 million
carriers in australia and we're like when they were using
like excel spreadsheets and post-it notes to actually go like who is this
person and so what do we do we said we're making it
should there should be an app about this and so we ended up making an app that's how
we got into making tech so we worked with qut and a
whole bunch of carers and co-designed an app to help care
(16:56):
be more person-centered about who are you you know are you
simon who has motor neurone disease and you take these
drugs or are you simon who used to like free diving and exercise
and this kind of art this kind of music and don't play coldplay otherwise
you'll just want to die straight away that's how we go into
tech monica just goes like like just make it then like oh
okay so we did fast forward heaps of a
(17:17):
few mobile apps and a few co-founder epic
failures that we all seem to have we got into people tech
because we made an app around endometriosis that.
Wasn't age-based and so we need a new company name and at
the same time we were looking at how we can create empathy in aged
care about the big problems you have in aged care yeah it
was like virtual reality could do that and that's how we got into
(17:37):
that's how people people get started is how we got into virtual
reality and then we and we were really lucky to
be on with that app that simon was talking about that did
fail well the chi founder relationship failed spectacular but
we're still like but we've still been working on that idea but we
were lucky enough to be on the remarkable program which was
really gave us brought us together with a
(17:59):
whole bunch of people who were like-minded about doing something.
Doing something in tech that's good for people yeah that's
around you know people with a disability or people who are older or yeah solving
some of those problems so we were really lucky with that too i think and then
so the whole it's not our idea around mutuality for empathy but then we worked
with a couple of friends and they've been friends for ages and they were going
(18:21):
through their own co-found stuff and.
Help we've got a client and we haven't got anyone to build this
thing or we don't know how to make it or design it and so
i remember we were on a beach in perth and we're like yeah yeah
we could do that and then we're like we could project manage that and then
it's like can we yeah here you go and then we did and so we actually had a guy
(18:42):
working for us at the time called paul frame who was an intern from sae in brisbane
and he doing a games degree he knew virtual reality and we're like hey if we
co-design this and come up with all this stuff could you make it he was We were
like, yeah, that's not good.
And so we did. And we kind of muddled our way through to make a VR app for like
one of the biggest beverage companies in the world. Oh, wow.
(19:02):
And that's how we started.
Yeah, I love that. That's crazy. It is.
And then we're like, oh, I can't get into this. Okay, let's do this.
So you didn't map out a 20-page business plan first and go through all those stages?
No, not at all. No. I don't even think we really thought that that would be
something that we would just keep doing.
(19:22):
I think we thought we were helping out. And then over time, it's just, it's evolved.
It just evolved. I think where the people that we were doing it with were much
more focused on innovation.
And so, and we're just, we're good at managing projects.
We're good at it. Like we can get them done on time and we know how to pull a team together.
And so that's been our strength. And we put those two things together,
(19:46):
that cutting edge innovation stuff to drive everything that we do to keep it
kind of keep it fresh. Don't just sit back and kind of think that this is going
to be the one thing that you do.
VR is not an industry where you can sit still for very long.
It changes and shifts really quickly. So, we need that.
But we also, in order to be able to be a successful company,
you have to be able to like to paint a product and know what you're doing.
(20:07):
I have a question there. Talking about VR, maybe more AR.
It's not my space exactly. But Apple, they just recently released their Vision Pro. Right.
I haven't actually had a full look at it but I've heard so much about it,
does that benefit what you're doing is there any way you would use that or yes
(20:27):
it does benefit us massively because I think someone actually said to us when
Apple makes something it's real,
and that's kind of like what do you mean by that the iPhone everyone's got a smart phone.
The iWatch everyone's got a smart watch now so Apple have now made a VR headset
except, you know, it still costs about $5,500 Australian dollars.
(20:49):
So, you know, access will be limited, but you'll have all of Apple people.
Yeah, but you know VR's not going away.
I think if to see a company like that invest in it, then you know this is tech
that's going to be around for a little while. So I think what Apple have done is really interesting.
There is a big difference between consumer VR and enterprise VR.
So more and more companies are getting into VR. And actually data and data protection and how people,
(21:13):
you know, because the amount of companies we speak to, especially big financial
institutions, I was talking to some of the big financial institutions about
training and they're like, we will have nothing from Oculus in our building,
let alone in a training environment.
So there are lots of concerns, right? I mean, we've been part of the XRSI,
which was until recently stood for Extended Reality Safety Initiative,
(21:37):
but is now rebranded to Extended Reality Safety Intelligence.
Okay. But it's all, and we've been standing up an Australian entity around that,
which is all around safety.
Safety in the metaverse, safety for people who are using extended reality.
And I think it's a legitimate concern to think about those things.
Actually, it's my first experience of this.
(21:58):
Yeah, that's right. It was your very first experience of like sexual harassment.
So I was in Rec Room. So people aren't familiar.
Rec Room is basically a metaverse of a style on Quest 2 headsets.
You can go in there. You can become an avatar.
You can run around, play games, meet mates, play paintball.
It's paintball, isn't it, we played? Paintball.
(22:19):
Leonie turns into a psycho yeah you do you double
shotgun people to the face and celebrate and it's very scary and
so i came
out of my room i've also came out of my closet and that sounded weird
but came out and these two blokes came up to me or we're like all right how
you doing well do you want to come into what you're doing hey do you want to
come into our room oh you look really good oh nice tits i was like nice tits
(22:43):
it's really freaking me out and then they kept on being really they were really
being really rude and coarse yeah and i was like okay i'm I'm going to get back into my base.
I looked in the mirror and my avatar, they'd automatically chosen.
I hadn't done anything. It was a woman.
Wow. I was like, Oh, that's what it feels like. And those were real. Were they real people?
They'll be real people. Like in avatars. In avatars. Yeah. And basically they were awful to me.
(23:05):
And my avatar was, I was an African American woman, very voluptuous.
For some reason, that's just what was picked. And you're supposed to go through
the whole thing and make it. Customize. Yeah. Yeah. So lots of people seem to
make it in their own image.
Other people make it in the complete opposite. Anyway, that was the first time
I kind of like properly felt and this is this goes back to that whole which
is why we do it in VR this is why a lot of the VR we do you embody someone else
(23:27):
so you actually you'll look in a mirror and you'll become someone else yeah,
there's a really interesting Stanford study that says it takes about 30 seconds
to suspend belief about who you are,
it's kind of freaky but it was the first thing I was like why are they being
so nasty what are they saying this for this is crazy and I felt and I ran away
and I was like oh man this is what people feel this is what many women feel every day,
so it was quite shocking So that's another thing.
(23:49):
That's why VR safety is so important because if people don't know how to use
it or if you have young kids in it, it can be a really scary place.
Well, I was just listening to the story of the guys that created Club Penguin,
which isn't VR, but it was like, you know, one of the first biggest sort of
like kids, you know, what do you call it? Like a...
(24:09):
PVP? No, no, no. There is a webinar.
What is Club Penguin? I don't even know what it is. It's okay,
I don't expect you to know.
It's a virtual world. It's a virtual world. It's a cartoon virtual world.
I think that qualifies as a metaverse.
Yeah, it was probably one of the first. It was massive. And the two people that
(24:31):
had the idea, they went out looking for external funding.
I can't remember the whole story, but they ended up, the company they were working
for that they were going to leave to start it, actually funded it.
But a big thing was the safety and the privacy and
they ended up selling it like when it had been doing really well
but they wanted to sell it to a company that could make sure to
put in the safety measures in place that it needed so they sold it to Disney
you know I think those things are really important to be thinking about like
(24:53):
we need all that luckily we have a great e-safety commissioner in Australia
it's awesome well we have gone a bit over time but I've got one key question
I want to ask you both what would you say your superpowers are individually Like,
what's the thing you're really good at, you thrive in, your real key strength?
Oh, I can tell you what Simon's superpower is. Yeah, do you want to say it for
(25:13):
each other? Say it for each other. Yeah, you tell me, Rowan.
I think Simon's superpower is that he connects really quickly with people in
a way that's not, it's super genuine.
So, Simon will like, you know, you can be best friends with Simon really,
really fast. And I really think that's a great superpower to have.
Yeah. I think you've got a complimentary one then, which is like,
you connect people much more deeply than me. But for a longer period of time,
(25:36):
between us, we get the intro and the really good, deep understanding of the team.
Yeah. I also think my superpower is spreadsheet numbers, quick thinking, problem solving.
Yeah. And Leona's superpower is translating all that into how can we actually
create something that's functional and works.
Yeah. And the team understands.
So I think that's powerful. Yeah, that's awesome. Super.
(26:00):
Well, thank you for sharing a bit of what you're doing and a small bit of the journey.
Doesn't count. Oh, it does. Come on. That's how you connect quickly with people.
Thank you. It does help sometimes. Thank you.
Got him. So, to finish off, we're at the Tropical Innovation Festival.
(26:23):
And I just wanted to ask a couple of things. If you were to finish the sentence,
Tropical Innovation Festival is, What would you say?
I think the best innovation festival I've been to in Australia,
if not the world probably, is very informal and I like it's very well run. Yeah.
But seemingly a bit loose.
Yeah. I would totally agree. I would say, yeah, Tropical Innovation Festival
(26:46):
is the best innovation festival to come to in Australia.
And that's not just because, you know, it's in Cairns.
That helps. But, yeah, I love the conversations that happen.
And I like the way people get up and talk and it doesn't feel like it's forced.
It feels like people are just coming from their own experience and they feel
(27:07):
comfortable enough to be able to just talk easily.
Yeah. That's great. I love that too.
That's one other thing. It's also one of the things we always do with our work
is try and create a safe space for our team and other people.
I think they do a very good job of creating a safe space for everyone here and
to be included and felt heard and I think that's really good.
I was in a one-hour mastermind room with the founder here and they opened up
(27:28):
and shared about their journey, but just the way that they felt okay and comfortable
to open up to this other group of founders and entrepreneurs about some really
vulnerable and deep stuff is just like, you don't get that everywhere.
You're not going to just go to any event and have people sharing some of those raw moments. So, yeah.
Yeah, no. So, you know, kudos to Tara and Kate and the team because I think
(27:48):
they make it look easy and you know it's not. Yeah, I agree. Yeah.
Popular Podcasts
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
True Crime Tonight
If you eat, sleep, and breathe true crime, TRUE CRIME TONIGHT is serving up your nightly fix. Five nights a week, KT STUDIOS & iHEART RADIO invite listeners to pull up a seat for an unfiltered look at the biggest cases making headlines, celebrity scandals, and the trials everyone is watching. With a mix of expert analysis, hot takes, and listener call-ins, TRUE CRIME TONIGHT goes beyond the headlines to uncover the twists, turns, and unanswered questions that keep us all obsessed—because, at TRUE CRIME TONIGHT, there’s a seat for everyone. Whether breaking down crime scene forensics, scrutinizing serial killers, or debating the most binge-worthy true crime docs, True Crime Tonight is the fresh, fast-paced, and slightly addictive home for true crime lovers.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com