June 16, 2025 • 58 mins
The way you live your life is an act of art. This profound truth forms the foundation of our conversation with writer Jennifer Locke, who shares how creativity became the organizing principle guiding her journey—from shy college student avoiding creative writing classes to professional ghostwriter and aspiring novelist.
Jennifer reveals the delicate balance of pursuing artistic passion while managing family life with three young children. She speaks with refreshing honesty about the vulnerability required to call herself an artist despite facing a decade of rejection in traditional publishing. "I've been heartbroken," she admits, describing the peculiar pain of receiving "complimentary no's" from agents and editors who praise her work but still decline to publish it. Yet her persistence shows what happens when we orient our lives around what matters most.
The conversation explores how community sustains creative practice even when it's "never convenient but always necessary." Jennifer shares how critique groups, creative gatherings, and intentional connections provide the feedback and encouragement essential for artistic growth. She challenges the belief that we must present perfect, finished work to others, explaining how sharing in-progress creations helps us avoid abandoning our most meaningful projects.
Most powerfully, Jennifer explains why vulnerability acts as a "self-selecting tool" that draws the right people toward us while naturally filtering out those who wouldn’t truly understand our work. "The minute I get vulnerable, I give everybody else permission," notes host Maddox—a principle that applies not only to creative communities but to all human connection.
Whether you're struggling to claim your creative identity or seeking to balance paid work with passion projects, this episode offers both practical wisdom and emotional sustenance. Listen now to discover why your life itself might be your greatest creative act… and how embracing vulnerability could transform both your art and your relationships.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
The way you live your life is an act of art, is an
act of creativity.
So a lot of people say thatthey're not creative and they
don't think that that is a partof who they are.
But I mean, if you've madechoices and you're directing the
way that you live your life,your life is an act of art.
(00:32):
I think so that's thecreativity.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Hello and welcome to another edition of For the Love
of Creatives.
Today I'm Maddox, I'm here withco-host Dwight, and today's
featured guest is Jennifer Locke.
Jennifer, welcome to thepodcast.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
Hi, thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Well, I know that you and Dwight initially met at our
experience event.
Is that correct?
Speaker 4 (01:15):
Or Creative Mornings.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
Yeah, we initially met at Creative Mornings and I
was, you know, talking as manypeople get drawn into wonderful
conversations with Dwightbecause he's so present and
available, and so we were justhaving a conversation and then
(01:36):
he had kind of mentioned it assomething that they were doing
and he gave me his business cardand so I looked it up online
and I signed up for thenewsletter.
And then once the first well, Iguess February is the I've
attended one.
It was in February and when theregistration went for that, I
said this is something that Iwant to prioritize, and I think
(02:00):
we connected again at the nextCreative Mornings and he was
talking about it and and askingif I was in and I was like, dude
, I already signed up, I'm goingto be there, I'll see you at
the one.
So that's how we initiallyconnected.
And then I went to the eventyou all hosted and that's the
(02:22):
one that I've been able toattend thus far.
I hope to attend more in thefuture and it was just such a
wonderful, wonderful, lovelyevening where I met great people
, and to be able to beintentional in that way with
other artists was a gift.
So it's something that I'mpursuing, or that I'm making
(02:43):
more and more space for in mylife.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
I love to hear that.
So you know, since you broughtthat up, this is not really
necessarily part of ourconversation, but I'm going to
make it part of our conversation.
What was, what was yourtakeaway from that evening?
What did you walk away withthat you didn't have when you
arrived?
Speaker 1 (03:28):
Uh well, connections for one thing, met some people
and then, you know, went out tograb lunch with at least one
person and I would like to dothat more.
Um, but I, I you had asked thequestion when we were there
about why it was important forus to be there that evening, um,
in one of the wonderfulbreakout circles that we did,
and so I said that I really wantto put myself forward as an
artist and get into the practiceof doing that and really claim
that moniker, and so that's whyit was important for me to do
that.
So I got practice in doing thatwhen I attended that event.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
Yay, yay, and we'll come back to this.
I think this is our startingpoint, but before we jump in, I
want to give you an opportunity,just a kind of a brief overview
, if you'll tell our listenerswho you are and a little bit
about how create your primaryway that creativity shows up for
(04:09):
you.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
Okay, okay, well, great, my name is Jennifer Locke
.
I go by you can also call meJen answer to either one.
And creativity shows up.
For me I would say it's kind ofthe organizing principle of my
life.
So I'm a writer and I had beentraditionally employed prior to
(04:35):
having twins and that was almost10 years ago and the
traditional structures ofemployment no longer made sense
for our family, and so I hadalways wanted to write.
I had always felt a desire towrite and loved it, and if you'd
asked me what I wanted to bewhen I was a little kid, then
(04:58):
that's what I would have toldyou.
And yet I didn't take creativewriting classes in college
because I was too intimidated.
Uh, I just somehow, you know,um, thought that that was
something for other people andnot for me, um, and so I'd
always.
It wasn't until I was in my midtwenties that I reconnected
(05:21):
with that desire, thanks to myhusband and and, who encouraged
me in that direction and anyway.
So when I had, I began writingin earnest, seriously, at that
time in my mid-20s, and so knewthat I'd kind of always
organized my life around thedecision of will this enable my
(05:46):
desire to be a writer?
Like traditional employment,teaching didn't do it long-term,
because I did do it.
That's how I started my career,but I didn't think it was going
to afford me as much time as Iwanted to pursue the thing that
I really wanted to do.
So I would say that that'salways been the compass by which
(06:07):
I've kind of oriented myself.
I started when I left thetraditional workforce.
I had been writing seriouslyfor a while and when I say
seriously I mean like diligentlyand trying to get better at the
craft and I, throughout thatprocess, been writing middle
(06:32):
grade books, so that's for, youknow, younger readers, like
eight to 14.
So I'd had the practice ofdoing that for quite a while and
knew that I had the skill setof writing books.
There's a winding pathway inbetween that and what I ended up
doing as a career, which is Icurrently work as a freelance
(06:53):
writer and a ghostwriter ofnonfiction books.
But the through line has alwaysbeen how can I organize my life
around the thing that I mostwant to do and also get paid for
it?
And so that's kind of acircuitous answer to your
question.
But I write for my business andI also write for love.
(07:17):
I still write fiction, and asmany other artists that you
speak to, I am always trying tokeep the balance up, not letting
one overwhelm the other andtrying to keep the two in
balance and really keep thewriting that I do for myself as
the primary thing.
Because when I am dedicatingtime to my writing and to the
(07:41):
writing that is meaningful to meand of course it that is
meaningful to me and of courseit's all meaningful to me, but
you know, to the thing that ismy number one, I find that it is
, um, I'm a lot happier in life,I have a lot more to give other
people, um, so it is makingtime for my preferred you know,
(08:01):
my preferred writing.
That writing that is reallymeaningful to me is really
important, just because of howit it feeds all the other areas
of my life and allows me to showup better, as in my business.
You know I have three littlekids how to show up better for
them and kind of in all thesedifferent aspects.
(08:22):
But I think everybody you know,kind of in all these different
aspects, but I think everybodyyou know the way you, the way
you live your life, is an act ofart, is an act of creativity.
So a lot of people say thatthey're not creative and they
don't think that that is a partof who they are.
But I mean, if you've, ifyou've made choices and you know
(08:45):
you're directing the way thatyou live your life, your life is
an act of art.
I think so.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
I want to acknowledge you, jennifer, for pushing
through and finding your way tothat in your mid 20s.
You know we see so many peoplein life that live their life out
with the dream that they neverrealize.
They work at a job that theydon't love because it pays the
bills.
I found my way to my dream whenI was 24 years old.
(09:18):
Oh really.
I wanted to be a hairdressermore than anything in the world
and I did that for 40 years andI retired at the end of 2019
after a 40-year career, and ithad its ups and downs, but I
don't look back with an ounce ofregret.
I loved it.
I love so much about it and Ihave always felt so blessed and
(09:42):
I'm wondering how you'reexperiencing.
And I have always felt soblessed and I'm wondering how
you're experiencing.
You know, for me it was like,oh my God.
You know, I see so many peoplethat are just working for a
paycheck and I get to dosomething every day, that I
spend time with people that Ireally enjoy and I love what I
do.
How are you experiencing notbeing part of that group of
(10:02):
people that just draw a paycheck, not being part of that group
of people?
Speaker 1 (10:05):
that just draw a paycheck.
Yeah, I mean, there's so manydifferent like ways to live in
the world and I acknowledge,acknowledge and I also
acknowledge that I've been, Ihave an immense amount of
privilege and and finding workand working to find a paying
work that aligns with myinterests.
(10:27):
So I want to, I guess, givecredit to myself for kind of
following that compass, but Ialso want to give credit to my
husband who has, you know, we'vebeen married for almost 17
years, so supporting each other,you know, financially, kind of
taking turns of who who carriesthe financial burden at various
(10:50):
times, and that steadiness Ifeel like has allowed me to take
different, take differentpathways.
If it had just been me, youknow, responsible for all of the
bills and things like that, whoknows if I would have continued
in a job but you know there's amillion different.
(11:11):
You could play that what if?
Game all day long.
Yeah, so I guess I want toacknowledge, I guess acknowledge
him and acknowledge, but alsoacknowledge myself and choices
that I made and kind of that,the compass that steered me
(11:32):
throughout.
Speaker 4 (11:45):
Well, and I want to celebrate you both, because
sustain a relationship and tohave built a family that is
something that we all hope to do.
We know that that's what's mostdesired, but a lot of people
can't make it for a lot ofreasons.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
Well, thank you.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
Well and doing both.
You know to be fully committedto your craft and to do a family
.
That's a lot, that's a lot.
So, you know, we talked to alot of people.
That's kind of an either and or, because they just can't manage
it all.
And the fact that you'remanaging it all, hats off to you
.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
So let's circle back to what you said before we
actually started, and that wasthe hesitancy to put yourself
out there.
Tell me a little more aboutthat and what and what's behind
that.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
Yeah, so we were chatting and I said that I had
hesitancy about filling out myinformation and putting myself
forward as an artist.
As I mentioned, that's thedesire that led me to your
community event that I attended.
And if something's going tomake money, if something's going
(13:10):
to be good for my, you know,I'll get on a podcast all day
long and talk about my business,which is also of writing, you
know, and to attractopportunities for that and open
doors.
And to attract opportunitiesfor that and open doors.
But I realized that I hadhesitancy about putting myself
forward as an artist and I cantell myself that it's because
(13:44):
there are particular markers ofquote unquote success that I
haven't reached yet in mywriting journey.
But that may not be true, youknow, because if I had reached
those, would I feel differently?
Would I still have thathesitancy about putting myself
forward?
You know, we'll see.
So that was kind of the thing.
That was at least that I wasallowing myself, allowing to
(14:05):
hold me back.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
Yeah, Can you describe a little bit about what
the hesitancy is?
Or is there a fear behind thator something that's just holding
you back?
Speaker 1 (14:22):
Yeah, um, yeah.
Well, I was talking about this,you know, in therapy not that
long ago and I wasn't expectingto cry in therapy, but I did,
and then I said, oh boy, there's, um, there's a lot of feeling
there and I know it's, I knowit's there, but, um, speaking it
in a different context, I guess, is what brought up the tears.
(14:45):
So I've been pursuing atraditional book deal for quite
a while with various differentprojects.
So the way that fiction writingworks is that you write it's a
goofy system you write the wholebook and then you pitch
different agents, you know, andyou want to get representation
(15:08):
for that book.
So if you're an agent, then theagent submits your book out to
editors and if the editor wantsit, then they buy it, you know.
And so it's so subjective.
You get a lot of oh, this is sowonderful, this is so great,
but we already have a bookthat's kind of similar to it on
(15:31):
our list, or, you know, thevoice didn't, just didn't
totally click with me.
Like, you get a lot of feedbackthat is is nonspecific, a lot
of nonspecific no's, evencomplimentary no's, but they're
still no's.
A lot of nonspecific no's, evencomplimentary no's, but they're
still no's.
And so I've been through thatprocess a couple times with a
(15:53):
couple different agents, andwe're talking like over a decade
long process, in both therefining of the craft and in the
attempts to get an agent, andthen on submission, and so yeah,
so I've just been heartbrokenin that respect in the past of
having these things that youpour your heart and soul into
and that haven't seen the lightof day.
(16:13):
And, of course, there arealways options, like in terms of
what you know, like,self-publishing is always an
option and it's a great optionfor the people that I work with
in my, my freelancing business,which is nonfiction.
Um, it's not as wonderful as anoption to me at this moment, at
least not as appealing, but itis always an option, um.
(16:36):
So, all that to say, I knowthat there are many, many ways
by which these things could seethe light of day.
Um, and maybe, maybe sometimeI'll I'll change my, change my
mind about how I want them tocome to fruition.
Um, and still like, so therethere's that.
(16:58):
And then, um, I was thinkingabout this as I've been like
sending emails to my agent, likeI've allowed that, to hold
myself back, like well, wehaven't sold, so I only have a a
right to email her, like onceevery two weeks or something
like that.
You know I, I've been aware ofthese thought patterns that I
have that say like, oh, youdon't have.
(17:19):
You know, she's got otherclients who make her a lot more
money than you, so you don'thave the right to email her.
And I'm like, oh, that's I'm, Igotta get rid of it.
You know I, I um just kind ofdispelling that, that idea and
that limiting belief and like,okay, I just gotta, I have to
(17:41):
act as if I have every right toemail her.
Politely, you know, when I wantto, when I have something to
say, I need to.
Even in this relationship thatis mediated with people who have
the ability to sell the book,like I'm not pitching the
editors directly, it goesthrough her because she has the
(18:02):
relationships directly, it goesthrough her because she has the
relationships.
I still want to act like it's,like I'm the boss and like it's
my career because it is, youknow, like, in effect, they,
they work for you at the end ofthe day, um, so, yeah, so that's
the like heart hallmark ofsuccess that hasn't been
achieved yet.
Um, but I don't want that tohold me back, you know, or to um
(18:27):
, limit my ability to describemyself as an artist, or to keep
me stifled.
Doing the same, doing the samething, um, that's kind of what
this year has been all about forme is trying different things
and, um, you know, if one waydidn't work, like, okay, well,
how about?
How about something else, youknow?
(18:49):
Switch it up, write somethingnew, write in a different form,
write poetry, write a weirdpiece of flash fiction which is
what I did last week, you know,write a picture book.
Yeah, so that's what this yearhas been about for me is
experimentation and taking thebull by the horns, I guess.
Bull by the horns, I guess.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
Okay, I have a lived experience of a time when I
realized if I would put myselfout there personally, it would
completely impact theeffectiveness of my business.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
Oh really.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
And I'm wondering if you can speculate how putting
yourself out there personallyand for you, that would look
like probably putting yourselfout there more personally with
your agent, because they're theone that's representing you with
all those editors and I'mwondering if you can speculate
(20:00):
or see how that might change.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
What's going on, what's been going on for 10
years.
I mean, like how it might Well,I Well, that's that's my yeah,
that's that's what I've beenthinking about is how I need to
like you know that whole dance,like no one's watching love,
(20:21):
like you've never been hurt,like you really have to.
I keep thinking about that andit's so cliche, but I'm like you
kind of, it is true.
You know, like you have to actas if you don't have all F
baggage or whatever.
You have to act as if you don'thave all F baggage or whatever.
Like I'm the only one who I I'mfully aware that the judgment
that I have for myself,conscious or not, other people
don't have it.
You know, like I.
(20:42):
I know it's all a me thing inmy head.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
Um, yeah, so that's, I keep thinking about that silly
little but if you, in yoursituation, if you were to do
that, what would that look like?
And if this is going in adirection you don't want to go,
it's okay to say you know.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
No, so this is what it's looked like lately.
It's being more, it's being asqueakier wheel and sending more
.
Sending being like, hey, Ifound this editor and what about
this and what about this, andhey, we talked about this.
So when is that going to happen?
Just being a squeakier, andthat's what I'm doing currently
(21:24):
and, yeah, acting like I haveevery right to do that, because
I do, you do, absolutely.
I can look back and realizethat when I have every right to
do that because I do.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
You do, absolutely you know.
I can look back and realizethat when I have allowed myself
to get vulnerable in front ofkey people in my life, suddenly
they were ready to go to bat forme.
And that's what you need.
You need your agent to go tobat for you, and the more you
reveal yourself and the more shelikes you because she's been
(21:54):
really seeing a deeper level ofyou.
I just have to wonder if that'sgoing to change the way she
presents your books to theseeditors.
That makes sense.
Mm, hmm, mm hmm.
Speaker 4 (22:06):
Well, and we've we've all had those experiences.
We know this innately Peoplelike people.
And no matter how accomplishedanyone is, what really draws you
to another person is how youcan connect with them and see a
little bit of yourself.
Yeah, and I, I know what it'slike when, um, one of the things
(22:35):
that Maddox has advised me attimes uh, even just for for
doing this podcast he's told methat, you know, I need to set
aside the stiff persona thatI've had in my corporate life
where I needed to make sure thatI was delivering the message
(22:57):
that was approved and could onlyshow just those things and just
be the person that people fallin love with in our living room.
Right, just completely show upand the whole experience of it's
going to change for the betterfor everybody.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
That's so I love that .
That's so beautiful, and howhas that impacted your corporate
life?
I know I'm not the interviewerhere.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
No, but it's a great question.
You do get to ask questions.
Speaker 4 (23:27):
Yeah, absolutely, oh it.
It has completely shifted thingsin ways that that I never could
have imagined, and I'll sharewith you an early experience of
it.
After the pandemic, one of thethings that I had to deal with
was I was in the midst of someintense grief and I was in a
(23:53):
position where I needed to goand present something to a
probate office of all places,where you know they, they deal
with death and dying all thetime.
So I kind of had a built-insympathetic audience without
even realizing it, and I neededto show them some very mundane
(24:15):
stuff for the nature of theirbusiness and I asked them to
just be patient with me becauseI could feel the grief coming
and I just needed to cry it outand it would, and I would be
with them again.
And they were like oh yeah,absolutely, cause, I mean,
that's, that's their every day,they, they deal with that all
(24:37):
the time and it, it.
It shifted the experiencebecause it went from something
where they were sitting with avendor to they were with a human
being and it made it a muchricher transaction or a much
richer experience and not atransaction.
(24:57):
You know, we were suddenlycommuning, we were sharing in
something.
Yes, we had business to attendto, but we were doing it in the
spirit of fellowship, of beinghuman beings and supporting each
other.
And it was a beautiful thing.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
It is a beautiful thing.
There's something very magicalabout vulnerability.
I just you know.
It just draws not just anybodyto you, it draws the right
people to you.
It's like this self-selectingtool.
The minute you get vulnerable,the people that wouldn't really
(25:37):
be your people, they go away.
It makes them uncomfortable,but the people that are really
your people, it draws them rightin.
So it's like this self-selecttool.
It's beautiful.
If you want to know who yourfriends are, just cry or get mad
or just you know, and it justit's just wow.
I love it.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
Good, yeah, yeah.
I learned early in my life thatI was going to have to be okay
with crying in front of otherpeople because I did it so much.
I was like I'm just going tohave to.
This is just who I am, this iswhat I'm going to do, and I'm
going to be okay with it.
You know so.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
I'm an emotional person myself.
You know I'll make this reallybrief.
But on on Dwight's and my firstdate.
Five minutes into the date,tears streamed down his face and
and it just drew me in like amoth to flame.
It was I had my.
I had my moment, you know infrom the Jerry Maguire movie,
(26:37):
where she said you had me athello.
You know he had me at the firsttier.
That rolled down his cheek.
Yeah, yeah, it's like oh mygosh, I think, yep, this is it.
Speaker 1 (26:51):
Oh, that's great.
Speaker 2 (26:52):
And here we are.
Okay, let's go back and look ata little bit of of origin.
Let's.
Why don't you tell us a littlebit about how creativity showed
(27:16):
up for you in your earliest daysof your life, the first time
you really experienced somethingthat looked, tasted, felt like
creativity, and what was it?
How old were you and what wasit, and how did it impact you?
Speaker 1 (27:30):
Oh, boy what was it and and how did it impact you?
Speaker 2 (27:33):
oh boy um that moment when you were like, oh my god,
I have to make something, I haveto, I have to create something
um well, I, I guess it was.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
I mean, I was a huge reader as a young child, still
am, you know, and then realizinglike, oh people, this book
didn't just come out of theeffort, somebody wrote it, you
know, like that's a job that youcan have, like OK, that is the
(28:08):
job that I want, and that waslike seven, you know, when I,
when I had that realization.
So so that's one way.
I was always a club starter asa child and so I think that's
one way, you know we would.
I'd be like let's have a thisclub or this club or or whatever
(28:28):
, and so we'd like get myfriends together and form a
little club for whatever I wasinterested in.
So I think that's another waythat creativity showed up and I
see it with.
So I have my daughters right now.
I have twins who are nine and Ihave a three-year-old and I see
them do this all the time too.
(28:50):
Just start little games, orlike we're going to do a show.
Anytime you get like three kidstogether, they're going to put
on a show for you, you know, andthey'll spend the whole time
figuring out who talks first andgetting their costume together
and that will be the 15 minuteshow.
But yeah, I don't know, it'sjust like the impulse is so
(29:10):
present and they just do it.
You know we're going to do ashow, we're going to do this, so
, um, it's, it's fun to see itnow with my own own kids, but I
was definitely that way too Likelet's start a club, let's do a
show, let's do a good show forum.
You know, my cousins and Iwould get together at how or not
?
Halloween, Thanksgiving, and weput on a show for the family.
(29:33):
So it's just kind of baked into to being a kid, you know.
So it's, everything you do isis like that.
You know, it's like it's justan expression of creativity, and
it's when we get older that weforget about that.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
That, that creating clubs thing.
You're kind of demonstratingsome community leadership.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
Yeah, I would.
I would say so.
I, that's definitely likeforming community has has always
been a priority, priority tonot just me but my husband too
and um.
So looking for, looking forplaces where there's opportunity
and kind of um like okay,somebody just needs to make the
(30:22):
first invite and other otherpeople are, other people want it
, you know everybody kind oflike you know how people say
that they're lonely, like theydon't just say that there's a
whole loneliness epidemic.
But if everybody feels that way, nobody is inviting other
(30:43):
people to hang out or to startsomething.
Then you just need somebody toto get the ball rolling, you
know there's a shortage ofinitiators, for sure.
Speaker 2 (30:53):
Dwight and I are definitely initiators and we
marvel sometimes because we makeall these invites and have
people over to our house andrarely do we get an invitation.
And it's not because peopledon't like us or don't want to
hang out with us, it's justthey're not necessarily
initiators.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
Right.
Or they probably look at youall and think, oh, they're the
creativity community guys,they're probably out having
these wonderful artisticexperiences every night of the
week, like they probably havethat assumption and I think we
all go around assuming that ofother people and it's just not
true, you know, it is not true.
You know, I think you're right.
I think we all go aroundassuming that of other people
and it's just not true, you know.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
It is not true, you know.
I think you're right.
I think sometimes people feellike, oh, they entertain so
beautifully, I could nevermeasure up to that.
So we've really tried to makeour entertaining so simple that
anybody could do it.
You know, trying to literally,you know, do something that's
easily replicated.
Speaker 1 (31:55):
Yeah, for a long time , we in our house and we're out
of the rhythm of this again andwe feel it because it's the
rhythm was so beautiful but wewould have people over every
Friday and do frozen pizza and asalad, you know, and nobody's
cooking anything.
It's a frozen pizza that we gotfrom Aldi, you know, and a
salad that you know, andnobody's cooking anything.
It's a frozen pizza that we gotfrom Aldi, you know, and a
(32:15):
salad that we throw together.
Like couldn't be easier, but itwas just such a wonderful start
to our wonderful way to startthe weekend, you know, with
other people sharing a meal.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
I love the way you're making it easy.
Yeah, we just call people andsay come over, be here at six
and stop at your favoriterestaurant and pick up your
favorite takeout, so everybodygets exactly what they want to
eat.
No cooking, no cleaning.
And, although it's a littleweird when we invite them and
say you have to bring your ownfood, but then everybody tells
me oh my God, this is amazing, Iloved it.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
Right, they got time with somebody in someone else's
home.
You know that's yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (33:06):
And it's it's great the way that those unfold,
because we get to bring peopletogether from different areas of
our lives, and it's always agood time, mm, hmm.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
Yeah, absolutely Always a good time, like a
remarkable time.
It's just not sort of good.
It's usually so good that Idon't the nights we entertain.
Sometimes I don't sleep becauseI'm just so jazzed.
It's just so amazing.
I can't you know come downenough to actually fall asleep.
It's crazy.
So writing, writing, is a veryand for many people a very
(33:36):
cathartic thing, a very.
Do you find that or not?
Do you find?
But how has writing changed theway you experience you?
Hmm.
Speaker 1 (33:57):
You know it's really interesting.
So Elizabeth Gilbert has saidthat if you write like the best
I'm not going to quote hercorrectly, but something like
there's she writes when herfiction, when she writes fiction
(34:19):
.
So she writes nonfiction andfiction and she says that in her
fiction those are the memoirs.
You know, like you write a bookof fiction and then you're you
realize at the end like you'vegot your, your thumbprints, your
fingerprints all over itbecause you didn't know you were
working out that particularissue.
But then like oh, there, thereit is.
(34:41):
You know, you really just kindof gave it all away in the
fiction when you thought youwere talking about stuff that
you just made up, you know.
So I found that to be trueWorks of fiction that I've done,
I've realized at the end of itor midway through like oh, I
must have really been wanting towork out this particular thing
(35:04):
and that's the impetus behindthat, and you can only see it in
retrospect.
So that's one.
It's kind of a very interesting, mysterious form of therapy
that you do when you writefiction.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
And does that, when you look back and realize that
you were writing about someaspect of your own life, does
that realization shift yourperspective, the way you see it
or the way you're experiencingit, as opposed to the way you
experienced it before, you hadthe awareness that you were
writing about your ownexperience?
Speaker 1 (35:43):
I think it, yeah, it's well.
Yeah, it kind of allows me tohave more compassion and empathy
for the people who maybe I was,maybe, just maybe, in the
fiction.
They were a fiction, they werea, uh avatar for someone else in
(36:06):
my real life, perhaps, you know.
And so the fiction allows me tolike, if I'm, if I'm writing,
if I'm engaged in story, if I'mcoming from a place where I have
empathy for the characters,which is the only correct place
to come from then at the end ofit I can kind of gain some
perspective on the situation andhave more empathy for that
individual in my actual life,even though absolutely none of
(36:30):
that was intentional.
You know, I didn't like startout saying, oh, this, this
person is this person and I'mgoing to do this and you know,
um, so, yeah, so allowing me tohave more, more empathy for, um,
people in my actual life andjust people in general.
I guess I'm not sure if thatwas the question but I think
(36:51):
that's beautiful.
Speaker 4 (36:53):
I think it speaks to what it is that we we see in.
Well, there's a lot that's beenwritten about the value of
appreciating fiction forincreasing empathy.
How has your intensifiedexperience of it you know being
engaged in the, the writing actfor so long in your own life
(37:18):
informed how it is that youconsume others works?
You know the things that makeit to screen or the stage or
even other works of fiction?
Speaker 1 (37:33):
Um well, I guess I would.
I, how is it?
Can change the way I consumeother works.
I would say, as a critic of it,um, and I don't mean that um in
(37:55):
a in a bad way, but somethingthat I, you, I do a lot of
reading for other people, likehelping them with their
manuscripts and with particularscenes, and I also just read a
ton in my own life, and so Iwill, um, I will put down a book
if I don't believe if the iftheir characters aren't grounded
(38:18):
enough and if I don't believethat there's a really good
reason for them to do whateverthing that they've done.
So that's so, and I used to notstop books.
I used to finish all of them,no matter what.
But I don't do that anymore.
I'll put them down, and thereason that I put them down is
(38:40):
often because I don't believethem.
I don't do that anymore.
I'll put them down, and thereason that I put them down is
often because I don't believethem.
I don't think that the authorwas tapped in enough to the
character to draw believablelines between who they are and
the choices that they make.
Speaker 4 (38:56):
That's fair.
Speaker 2 (38:58):
Yeah, yeah.
No, that's interesting.
I, I actually really I get that.
I I get that.
Speaker 1 (39:08):
It's almost like it's an inauthent you're reading
something that doesn't feelauthentic yeah, and I talk about
that a lot too, because becausein my business I help with non,
I ghostwrite nonfiction and Icoach people who are writing
nonfiction books, and I say alot like it really doesn't
(39:30):
matter what you talk about, itdoesn't matter your level of
expertise, I mean, it matterssome.
You need to have a grounding inwhat you're talking about and
not just making things up.
But people think that they needsome outside qualifier in order
to write their book, and thatis not.
(39:51):
It doesn't exist.
You know, there's nothing thatyou can hang your hat on and say
like, okay, now, now I'm ready,now's the time, um, but yeah, I
say, it doesn't matter what itis.
What matters is your authenticvoice coming through and the
story, stories that you're ableto tell and you being real on
(40:12):
the page.
Even if you're talking aboutsomething that is like quote,
unquote for business, you know,or meant to put paint, you as an
expert, like I really don'tcare, um, what that is.
Or some people say, like mytopic is too boring, I don't
know what I can talk about, like, as long as there's a strong
(40:34):
voice and as long as it'sgrounded and you're telling real
stories and you're being realwith people, you know.
You're not trying to presentyourself as some expert or
that's what.
That's what draws people in,that's what gets them interested
in your subject, even if it'sboring, you know.
(40:56):
So, yeah, that's.
Speaker 2 (40:59):
Yeah, you can deliver anything, as long as you bring
that vulnerability into itexactly yeah, there's definitely
a call back to what we weresaying earlier.
Speaker 4 (41:11):
People are drawn to people.
They want to be able to see alight when they look inside.
They want to know that they'rethey're touching someone that's
real and not just sending thingsinto the void.
Speaker 1 (41:27):
Right.
Speaker 2 (41:28):
Jennifer, you spoke earlier about working on the
book deal for 10 years and youmentioned the word heartbreaking
, and I think that it would beof great value to our listeners
to hear how you moved through,how you process that heartbreak
in a manner that enabled you tokeep going.
Speaker 1 (41:53):
Well, I'll say that I'll specify that this was not
just one project, like there'sdifferent projects and I've,
like there's different projectsand, um, I've, I've, uh, had
plenty of different projectsover the year.
So that's the first thing is todon't get stuck on one, always
be willing to try something new,um, and so, yeah, I, if, if, if
(42:18):
you're a if, what you love isbreaking your heart, I guess,
then to have people in yourcorner who get it, who you can
express that openly with, whoyou can cry with about it, and
don't skip over the place whereyou have to, like, feel your
feelings and and cry it out, um,and do that, you know, and then
(42:39):
I feel that inevitably givesway to fresh energy and fresh
ideas and a willingness tochange it up and try something
different.
And that's essentially alwaysthe answer is to try something
new, start a new project, findsomething else that captures
(43:00):
your love and attention and,yeah, keep on going with it.
Speaker 2 (43:08):
Iterate.
Speaker 1 (43:10):
Right.
Speaker 2 (43:11):
Iterate, so I'm formulating a question, a
question have you everexperienced a sense of
resentment toward your calling?
I mean, you had this calling towrite.
(43:33):
Has there ever been a timewhere you just felt resentful
that you had actually beencalled to do that and if so, how
did you navigate that?
Speaker 1 (43:39):
Oh, plenty of times, yeah, plenty of times, I felt
like, oh, it'd be so easier, somuch easier if I could just get
a job you know, or like to besatisfied in some different
career.
But what are a bunch of whatifs worth at the end of the day?
Right, like they're not worthanything.
We only have this one life inthis one experience, and so, um
(44:04):
can you can make the best of it,and so, um, yeah.
So community is key, findingpeople who who understand what
you're going through and havehad similar experiences, and
just people who get it and um,and people who you can be real
with.
And space Space is a good thing, space and rest, you know,
(44:27):
between one project and the next, and then you get fresh energy
and you get fresh ideas andyou're just willing to go do it
again.
Speaker 2 (44:38):
I'm really glad you brought up community.
Let's talk a little bit moreabout that.
I'd love to know what communitylooks like in your life, how it
shows up and how it has, inwhat ways it's, benefited your
process.
Speaker 1 (44:59):
Yeah, well, it's great to be involved with what
other people are doing, likeit's great to like being part of
a critique group has is reallyimportant to me, and I've had
periods in my life where I'vehad it and where I've not, or
I've had it again and where I'venot, you know, but I've.
I've realized that it's.
It is really important for meto um, make a commitment to that
(45:21):
.
And it's always inconvenient,right, it's never convenient to
meet with other people and toalign schedules and to make time
to read their work and offerfeedback and things like that.
That's never convenient.
But, um, I'm, I have a groupthat does that and it's it's
once a month, you know, it's not, it's not super onerous, but I
(45:41):
always leave those energized.
And so there's writing group.
Then I have, like I don't know,groups at church.
I said something the other daylike oh, I have a group, this, I
have my writing group this weekand my husband was like well, I
forget, you're a part of somany groups.
(46:02):
I'm like no, I'm not, I'm onlya part of two.
And he's like you have yourbook club, you have your writing
group, you have your creativemornings, you have this.
And he named like five things,like okay, it's true, I am a
part of a lot of groups, but Imean, my life is so I write a
lot of, I'm in my house a lot ofthe time, especially now that
(46:22):
my kids are at school, and sothere is a very solitary aspect
of my life and just being a momof young kids period can be very
isolating.
So that is a big strain too,and that's kind of why it's
necessary, I think, for me tojoin and start as many groups as
(46:42):
I am a part of.
Speaker 2 (46:44):
You know you're demonstrating and I want to
really call this out you'redemonstrating that there are
certain types of creativity thatare traditionally done in
solitude.
It's probably hard to write ifyou're in a really noisy,
distracting place, and so youget in a quiet, still place to
do your writing.
(47:05):
But then there's other aspectsof your process that you don't
need to have quiet, and that'swhere that community comes in.
I think we miss the boatsometimes in saying, well, I
can't people say I can't paintwhen there's other people around
, or I can't write when there'sother people around, or I can't
whatever when there's otherpeople around, and that's not it
(47:27):
.
You know we're not saying youhave to do everything in
community, but community isvital and you know to pull
community in in those times.
And that's what you're reallydescribing right now the value
of, yes, you write in your home,kids off, gone to school or
(47:48):
daycare, and you're in solitude,quiet, stillness, writing.
But then there's other part ofthe process, like the critique
aspect of it, and I thinkthere's a lot of people that are
afraid of that.
I'm kind of shifting a littlebit here, but I think there's a
lot of people that when you say,oh, feedback group or critique
(48:08):
group.
They're really anxious abouthaving somebody shoot them down
and if the group is set upproperly and managed properly
and there's some guidelines thatyou go by, you don't ever have
to worry about somebody shootingyou down.
It's not a place of judgment.
Have you experienced that inyour group?
(48:30):
That is the feedback group.
Speaker 1 (48:34):
Yeah, there's definitely like rules you know,
of codes of conduct you know forand it's it's small right now
it's it's like three to fourpeople as well, as that's also
been true of other critiquegroups that I've been part of in
the past.
But, yeah, if you don't sharewith other people, like if, if
you're not having people whooffer feedback on it not just
(48:57):
offer feedback, but who can bewith you as you're developing
and you know sharing then itjust doesn't, it doesn't feel
real and it's too easy to giveup on.
And I think that's probably whymost people do like they start
and they start down a road andhave a good idea and then
nothing comes of it because theyjust they feel like they have
(49:20):
to figure it all out themselvesand then present this like
perfect thing to other peopleand that is just so, not the way
that that things happen.
Speaker 2 (49:30):
Thank you for saying that, man.
I hope the listeners out there,you know, hit that little
rewind button by about a minuteand listen to what she said
again, because that was reallypowerful.
You don't have to have itperfect, it's not about
perfection and it doesn't haveto be finished.
We do some.
(49:51):
We, as creatives, do so manythings that are just full on
sabotage, self-sabotage.
Speaker 1 (49:58):
Right and only like when you're missing it and you
get it back, do you realize like, oh, this is what I should have
been doing all along.
You know, this is this is theway that you get better, you get
new ideas, you get other peoplewith you for the highs and the
lows.
Speaker 2 (50:18):
I mean I'm I'm hearing you say that the
different groups, your community, these little communities that
you're in, are kind of thelifesaver.
They're the lifeline.
Speaker 1 (50:31):
Yeah, I think so, I really do.
Yeah, and there's, you know,like I said, it's never
convenient, it's neverconvenient to get together with
people, but I think it'snecessary.
Speaker 2 (50:45):
Yeah, and worthwhile even though it.
Yes, well, and I think thatwe've kind of gotten at a time
because we're so busy that mostanything like that's
inconvenient.
You know, we have to stop ourbusyness and we're very, very
like, addicted and dedicated toour busyness as human beings.
Speaker 4 (51:08):
Speaking of, I have to make it to another meeting,
so I'm curious to see how thisthis ends up.
Speaker 2 (51:17):
Oh, I wish you told me that we were.
You had a hard stop.
Do you need to go right thissecond?
I do?
All right, go and I'll finishup.
Okay.
That's the first time he's everhad to dip out in the middle of
the episode.
He didn't tell me that he had ahard stop.
So what we do at the end ofevery episode is we do a round
(51:42):
of rapid fire questions forrapid fire answers.
Okay.
So are you ready.
Sure.
Question number one what's yourcreative spirit animal?
Speaker 1 (52:06):
I'm going to say dolphin, because it's the first
thing that came to my mind.
Yeah, they have fun and I'm allabout making it fun.
Whatever yeah.
Speaker 2 (52:15):
And they're one of the species of mammals that are
closest to humans.
Okay.
Okay, choice Studio space oroutdoor inspiration when you're
writing.
Speaker 1 (52:30):
I'll say I'm inside a lot, so I'll say outdoor.
Oh, okay.
I don't actually write outdoors, but in terms of where
inspiration can flow, I'll sayoutdoors.
I take a lot of walks, so thatcounts yeah, I love walks.
Speaker 2 (52:48):
What's the best advice you've ever received from
another creative?
Don't quit, try somethingdifferent, keep going that's
pretty sage advice and uh yeahthat's pretty sage advice so do
(53:15):
you have anything else that youwould like to just off the top
of your head?
Leave our listeners with anywords of wisdom that you would
like to just off the top of yourhead.
Leave our listeners with anywords of wisdom that you have
learned in your journey that youthink are kind of universal,
and they would benefit fromhearing.
Speaker 1 (53:28):
Well, I talked to a lot of people who want to write
books.
So if anybody's listening andthey feel that urge, then I
would say you have my vote ofconfidence that it is something
that you should do because youwant to.
(53:48):
You know so, and I think thatthe journey of doing that, who
you become in the journey ofdoing that, that's enough reason
to do it.
So I'm always encouragingpeople who feel that pull to go
for it.
Speaker 2 (54:06):
I love the way you word that who you become in that
journey.
I love that.
Thank you for that very much.
You're welcome.
Jennifer, this has been amazing.
Yes.
Yeah, I have loved hearing yourstory and certainly the depth
of the questions that you werewilling to go to.
Do you feel like maybe in thisparticular conversation you were
(54:30):
able to put yourself out therea little bit more?
Speaker 1 (54:35):
I think so, yes, so again, thank you for giving me
the opportunity.
I really appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (54:40):
Good, yes, so again, thank you for giving me the
opportunity.
I really appreciate it.
Good, good and I guess one lastquestion you know, because
sometimes people will say afterthe interview wow, you know, I
saw some things about my ownstory that I had never quite
like.
They connected dots.
Have you had any awarenesses oranything bubble to the surface
as we've had this conversation?
Speaker 1 (55:00):
you had any awarenesses or anything bubble
to the surface, as, as we've hadthis conversation.
Um, yeah, well, I, I appreciatedwhat you all shared about um,
what you and Dwight shared aboutbeing vulnerable with people,
um, in real, in real life, inreal time, and I've I've just
I'll be noodling on what thatlooks like in my particular
context, where I am like I don'twant to say siloed, but I'm
(55:24):
often pretty solitary and likeit's my work hours and now I'm a
mom and now I, you know, likethere's a lot of um, I have my
my mom friends and my workfriends and my writing friends
and a lot of our um, a lot ofour meeting is like asynchronous
or on on zoom or you know.
(55:44):
There's a lot of community, butthere's also a lot of solitary
time too, and that's somethingI'm.
Yeah, just, who can I um?
Who can I talk to?
Who can I be real with?
How can I seek that out moreand more, um, even though, like
I've said it so many times, it'sso, it's inconvenient, but that
doesn't, that doesn't matter,right.
Speaker 2 (56:05):
Yeah, I'm hearing the makings of a small club.
You know.
It could be just a circle ofpeople that get together and
just talk not so much abouttheir creativity but about
what's going on in their heart,just create that safe,
vulnerable space.
(56:25):
That would be amazing.
And it could be just three orfour people, because community
happens when there's two or more.
Speaker 1 (56:34):
That's right yeah.
Speaker 2 (56:37):
You know you're that I'll start a club person.
There you go, and it could beall just about you know, leaning
into your vulnerability alittle bit more and supporting
each other and doing that,creating a safe space for that
to show up.
I think it's amazing whathappens when we do it first,
because I've really learned theminute I come to the table and
(56:57):
get vulnerable, I have giveneverybody else permission.
Now Nobody likes to go first,so when I go first, I give the
rest of the room the opportunityto go second, third and fourth.
And it's just kind of magical.
So I'm often the one to raisemy hand, because it's not
because I'm just like pick me,pick me.
(57:19):
It's more about I just see thatif, if somebody will just step
up and I'm willing to do it,then everybody else just follows
suit.
It's like the little dominoesthat all fall like that.
Thank you so much for your timetoday.
It's been amazing.
Speaker 1 (57:35):
Thank you.
The way you live your life is an act of art, is an
act of creativity.
So a lot of people say thatthey're not creative and they
don't think that that is a partof who they are.
But I mean, if you've madechoices and you're directing the
way that you live your life,your life is an act of art.
(00:32):
I think so that's thecreativity.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Hello and welcome to another edition of For the Love
of Creatives.
Today I'm Maddox, I'm here withco-host Dwight, and today's
featured guest is Jennifer Locke.
Jennifer, welcome to thepodcast.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
Hi, thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Well, I know that you and Dwight initially met at our
experience event.
Is that correct?
Speaker 4 (01:15):
Or Creative Mornings.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
Yeah, we initially met at Creative Mornings and I
was, you know, talking as manypeople get drawn into wonderful
conversations with Dwightbecause he's so present and
available, and so we were justhaving a conversation and then
(01:36):
he had kind of mentioned it assomething that they were doing
and he gave me his business cardand so I looked it up online
and I signed up for thenewsletter.
And then once the first well, Iguess February is the I've
attended one.
It was in February and when theregistration went for that, I
said this is something that Iwant to prioritize, and I think
(02:00):
we connected again at the nextCreative Mornings and he was
talking about it and and askingif I was in and I was like, dude
, I already signed up, I'm goingto be there, I'll see you at
the one.
So that's how we initiallyconnected.
And then I went to the eventyou all hosted and that's the
(02:22):
one that I've been able toattend thus far.
I hope to attend more in thefuture and it was just such a
wonderful, wonderful, lovelyevening where I met great people
, and to be able to beintentional in that way with
other artists was a gift.
So it's something that I'mpursuing, or that I'm making
(02:43):
more and more space for in mylife.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
I love to hear that.
So you know, since you broughtthat up, this is not really
necessarily part of ourconversation, but I'm going to
make it part of our conversation.
What was, what was yourtakeaway from that evening?
What did you walk away withthat you didn't have when you
arrived?
Speaker 1 (03:28):
Uh well, connections for one thing, met some people
and then, you know, went out tograb lunch with at least one
person and I would like to dothat more.
Um, but I, I you had asked thequestion when we were there
about why it was important forus to be there that evening, um,
in one of the wonderfulbreakout circles that we did,
and so I said that I really wantto put myself forward as an
artist and get into the practiceof doing that and really claim
that moniker, and so that's whyit was important for me to do
that.
So I got practice in doing thatwhen I attended that event.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
Yay, yay, and we'll come back to this.
I think this is our startingpoint, but before we jump in, I
want to give you an opportunity,just a kind of a brief overview
, if you'll tell our listenerswho you are and a little bit
about how create your primaryway that creativity shows up for
(04:09):
you.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
Okay, okay, well, great, my name is Jennifer Locke
.
I go by you can also call meJen answer to either one.
And creativity shows up.
For me I would say it's kind ofthe organizing principle of my
life.
So I'm a writer and I had beentraditionally employed prior to
(04:35):
having twins and that was almost10 years ago and the
traditional structures ofemployment no longer made sense
for our family, and so I hadalways wanted to write.
I had always felt a desire towrite and loved it, and if you'd
asked me what I wanted to bewhen I was a little kid, then
(04:58):
that's what I would have toldyou.
And yet I didn't take creativewriting classes in college
because I was too intimidated.
Uh, I just somehow, you know,um, thought that that was
something for other people andnot for me, um, and so I'd
always.
It wasn't until I was in my midtwenties that I reconnected
(05:21):
with that desire, thanks to myhusband and and, who encouraged
me in that direction and anyway.
So when I had, I began writingin earnest, seriously, at that
time in my mid-20s, and so knewthat I'd kind of always
organized my life around thedecision of will this enable my
(05:46):
desire to be a writer?
Like traditional employment,teaching didn't do it long-term,
because I did do it.
That's how I started my career,but I didn't think it was going
to afford me as much time as Iwanted to pursue the thing that
I really wanted to do.
So I would say that that'salways been the compass by which
(06:07):
I've kind of oriented myself.
I started when I left thetraditional workforce.
I had been writing seriouslyfor a while and when I say
seriously I mean like diligentlyand trying to get better at the
craft and I, throughout thatprocess, been writing middle
(06:32):
grade books, so that's for, youknow, younger readers, like
eight to 14.
So I'd had the practice ofdoing that for quite a while and
knew that I had the skill setof writing books.
There's a winding pathway inbetween that and what I ended up
doing as a career, which is Icurrently work as a freelance
(06:53):
writer and a ghostwriter ofnonfiction books.
But the through line has alwaysbeen how can I organize my life
around the thing that I mostwant to do and also get paid for
it?
And so that's kind of acircuitous answer to your
question.
But I write for my business andI also write for love.
(07:17):
I still write fiction, and asmany other artists that you
speak to, I am always trying tokeep the balance up, not letting
one overwhelm the other andtrying to keep the two in
balance and really keep thewriting that I do for myself as
the primary thing.
Because when I am dedicatingtime to my writing and to the
(07:41):
writing that is meaningful to meand of course it that is
meaningful to me and of courseit's all meaningful to me, but
you know, to the thing that ismy number one, I find that it is
, um, I'm a lot happier in life,I have a lot more to give other
people, um, so it is makingtime for my preferred you know,
(08:01):
my preferred writing.
That writing that is reallymeaningful to me is really
important, just because of howit it feeds all the other areas
of my life and allows me to showup better, as in my business.
You know I have three littlekids how to show up better for
them and kind of in all thesedifferent aspects.
(08:22):
But I think everybody you know,kind of in all these different
aspects, but I think everybodyyou know the way you, the way
you live your life, is an act ofart, is an act of creativity.
So a lot of people say thatthey're not creative and they
don't think that that is a partof who they are.
But I mean, if you've, ifyou've made choices and you know
(08:45):
you're directing the way thatyou live your life, your life is
an act of art.
I think so.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
I want to acknowledge you, jennifer, for pushing
through and finding your way tothat in your mid 20s.
You know we see so many peoplein life that live their life out
with the dream that they neverrealize.
They work at a job that theydon't love because it pays the
bills.
I found my way to my dream whenI was 24 years old.
(09:18):
Oh really.
I wanted to be a hairdressermore than anything in the world
and I did that for 40 years andI retired at the end of 2019
after a 40-year career, and ithad its ups and downs, but I
don't look back with an ounce ofregret.
I loved it.
I love so much about it and Ihave always felt so blessed and
(09:42):
I'm wondering how you'reexperiencing.
And I have always felt soblessed and I'm wondering how
you're experiencing.
You know, for me it was like,oh my God.
You know, I see so many peoplethat are just working for a
paycheck and I get to dosomething every day, that I
spend time with people that Ireally enjoy and I love what I
do.
How are you experiencing notbeing part of that group of
(10:02):
people that just draw a paycheck, not being part of that group
of people?
Speaker 1 (10:05):
that just draw a paycheck.
Yeah, I mean, there's so manydifferent like ways to live in
the world and I acknowledge,acknowledge and I also
acknowledge that I've been, Ihave an immense amount of
privilege and and finding workand working to find a paying
work that aligns with myinterests.
(10:27):
So I want to, I guess, givecredit to myself for kind of
following that compass, but Ialso want to give credit to my
husband who has, you know, we'vebeen married for almost 17
years, so supporting each other,you know, financially, kind of
taking turns of who who carriesthe financial burden at various
(10:50):
times, and that steadiness Ifeel like has allowed me to take
different, take differentpathways.
If it had just been me, youknow, responsible for all of the
bills and things like that, whoknows if I would have continued
in a job but you know there's amillion different.
(11:11):
You could play that what if?
Game all day long.
Yeah, so I guess I want toacknowledge, I guess acknowledge
him and acknowledge, but alsoacknowledge myself and choices
that I made and kind of that,the compass that steered me
(11:32):
throughout.
Speaker 4 (11:45):
Well, and I want to celebrate you both, because
sustain a relationship and tohave built a family that is
something that we all hope to do.
We know that that's what's mostdesired, but a lot of people
can't make it for a lot ofreasons.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
Well, thank you.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
Well and doing both.
You know to be fully committedto your craft and to do a family
.
That's a lot, that's a lot.
So, you know, we talked to alot of people.
That's kind of an either and or, because they just can't manage
it all.
And the fact that you'remanaging it all, hats off to you
.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
So let's circle back to what you said before we
actually started, and that wasthe hesitancy to put yourself
out there.
Tell me a little more aboutthat and what and what's behind
that.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
Yeah, so we were chatting and I said that I had
hesitancy about filling out myinformation and putting myself
forward as an artist.
As I mentioned, that's thedesire that led me to your
community event that I attended.
And if something's going tomake money, if something's going
(13:10):
to be good for my, you know,I'll get on a podcast all day
long and talk about my business,which is also of writing, you
know, and to attractopportunities for that and open
doors.
And to attract opportunitiesfor that and open doors.
But I realized that I hadhesitancy about putting myself
forward as an artist and I cantell myself that it's because
(13:44):
there are particular markers ofquote unquote success that I
haven't reached yet in mywriting journey.
But that may not be true, youknow, because if I had reached
those, would I feel differently?
Would I still have thathesitancy about putting myself
forward?
You know, we'll see.
So that was kind of the thing.
That was at least that I wasallowing myself, allowing to
(14:05):
hold me back.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
Yeah, Can you describe a little bit about what
the hesitancy is?
Or is there a fear behind thator something that's just holding
you back?
Speaker 1 (14:22):
Yeah, um, yeah.
Well, I was talking about this,you know, in therapy not that
long ago and I wasn't expectingto cry in therapy, but I did,
and then I said, oh boy, there's, um, there's a lot of feeling
there and I know it's, I knowit's there, but, um, speaking it
in a different context, I guess, is what brought up the tears.
(14:45):
So I've been pursuing atraditional book deal for quite
a while with various differentprojects.
So the way that fiction writingworks is that you write it's a
goofy system you write the wholebook and then you pitch
different agents, you know, andyou want to get representation
(15:08):
for that book.
So if you're an agent, then theagent submits your book out to
editors and if the editor wantsit, then they buy it, you know.
And so it's so subjective.
You get a lot of oh, this is sowonderful, this is so great,
but we already have a bookthat's kind of similar to it on
(15:31):
our list, or, you know, thevoice didn't, just didn't
totally click with me.
Like, you get a lot of feedbackthat is is nonspecific, a lot
of nonspecific no's, evencomplimentary no's, but they're
still no's.
A lot of nonspecific no's, evencomplimentary no's, but they're
still no's.
And so I've been through thatprocess a couple times with a
(15:53):
couple different agents, andwe're talking like over a decade
long process, in both therefining of the craft and in the
attempts to get an agent, andthen on submission, and so yeah,
so I've just been heartbrokenin that respect in the past of
having these things that youpour your heart and soul into
and that haven't seen the lightof day.
(16:13):
And, of course, there arealways options, like in terms of
what you know, like,self-publishing is always an
option and it's a great optionfor the people that I work with
in my, my freelancing business,which is nonfiction.
Um, it's not as wonderful as anoption to me at this moment, at
least not as appealing, but itis always an option, um.
(16:36):
So, all that to say, I knowthat there are many, many ways
by which these things could seethe light of day.
Um, and maybe, maybe sometimeI'll I'll change my, change my
mind about how I want them tocome to fruition.
Um, and still like, so therethere's that.
(16:58):
And then, um, I was thinkingabout this as I've been like
sending emails to my agent, likeI've allowed that, to hold
myself back, like well, wehaven't sold, so I only have a a
right to email her, like onceevery two weeks or something
like that.
You know I, I've been aware ofthese thought patterns that I
have that say like, oh, youdon't have.
(17:19):
You know, she's got otherclients who make her a lot more
money than you, so you don'thave the right to email her.
And I'm like, oh, that's I'm, Igotta get rid of it.
You know I, I um just kind ofdispelling that, that idea and
that limiting belief and like,okay, I just gotta, I have to
(17:41):
act as if I have every right toemail her.
Politely, you know, when I wantto, when I have something to
say, I need to.
Even in this relationship thatis mediated with people who have
the ability to sell the book,like I'm not pitching the
editors directly, it goesthrough her because she has the
(18:02):
relationships directly, it goesthrough her because she has the
relationships.
I still want to act like it's,like I'm the boss and like it's
my career because it is, youknow, like, in effect, they,
they work for you at the end ofthe day, um, so, yeah, so that's
the like heart hallmark ofsuccess that hasn't been
achieved yet.
Um, but I don't want that tohold me back, you know, or to um
(18:27):
, limit my ability to describemyself as an artist, or to keep
me stifled.
Doing the same, doing the samething, um, that's kind of what
this year has been all about forme is trying different things
and, um, you know, if one waydidn't work, like, okay, well,
how about?
How about something else, youknow?
(18:49):
Switch it up, write somethingnew, write in a different form,
write poetry, write a weirdpiece of flash fiction which is
what I did last week, you know,write a picture book.
Yeah, so that's what this yearhas been about for me is
experimentation and taking thebull by the horns, I guess.
Bull by the horns, I guess.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
Okay, I have a lived experience of a time when I
realized if I would put myselfout there personally, it would
completely impact theeffectiveness of my business.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
Oh really.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
And I'm wondering if you can speculate how putting
yourself out there personallyand for you, that would look
like probably putting yourselfout there more personally with
your agent, because they're theone that's representing you with
all those editors and I'mwondering if you can speculate
(20:00):
or see how that might change.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
What's going on, what's been going on for 10
years.
I mean, like how it might Well,I Well, that's that's my yeah,
that's that's what I've beenthinking about is how I need to
like you know that whole dance,like no one's watching love,
(20:21):
like you've never been hurt,like you really have to.
I keep thinking about that andit's so cliche, but I'm like you
kind of, it is true.
You know, like you have to actas if you don't have all F
baggage or whatever.
You have to act as if you don'thave all F baggage or whatever.
Like I'm the only one who I I'mfully aware that the judgment
that I have for myself,conscious or not, other people
don't have it.
You know, like I.
(20:42):
I know it's all a me thing inmy head.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
Um, yeah, so that's, I keep thinking about that silly
little but if you, in yoursituation, if you were to do
that, what would that look like?
And if this is going in adirection you don't want to go,
it's okay to say you know.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
No, so this is what it's looked like lately.
It's being more, it's being asqueakier wheel and sending more
.
Sending being like, hey, Ifound this editor and what about
this and what about this, andhey, we talked about this.
So when is that going to happen?
Just being a squeakier, andthat's what I'm doing currently
(21:24):
and, yeah, acting like I haveevery right to do that, because
I do, you do, absolutely.
I can look back and realizethat when I have every right to
do that because I do.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
You do, absolutely you know.
I can look back and realizethat when I have allowed myself
to get vulnerable in front ofkey people in my life, suddenly
they were ready to go to bat forme.
And that's what you need.
You need your agent to go tobat for you, and the more you
reveal yourself and the more shelikes you because she's been
(21:54):
really seeing a deeper level ofyou.
I just have to wonder if that'sgoing to change the way she
presents your books to theseeditors.
That makes sense.
Mm, hmm, mm hmm.
Speaker 4 (22:06):
Well, and we've we've all had those experiences.
We know this innately Peoplelike people.
And no matter how accomplishedanyone is, what really draws you
to another person is how youcan connect with them and see a
little bit of yourself.
Yeah, and I, I know what it'slike when, um, one of the things
(22:35):
that Maddox has advised me attimes uh, even just for for
doing this podcast he's told methat, you know, I need to set
aside the stiff persona thatI've had in my corporate life
where I needed to make sure thatI was delivering the message
(22:57):
that was approved and could onlyshow just those things and just
be the person that people fallin love with in our living room.
Right, just completely show upand the whole experience of it's
going to change for the betterfor everybody.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
That's so I love that .
That's so beautiful, and howhas that impacted your corporate
life?
I know I'm not the interviewerhere.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
No, but it's a great question.
You do get to ask questions.
Speaker 4 (23:27):
Yeah, absolutely, oh it.
It has completely shifted thingsin ways that that I never could
have imagined, and I'll sharewith you an early experience of
it.
After the pandemic, one of thethings that I had to deal with
was I was in the midst of someintense grief and I was in a
(23:53):
position where I needed to goand present something to a
probate office of all places,where you know they, they deal
with death and dying all thetime.
So I kind of had a built-insympathetic audience without
even realizing it, and I neededto show them some very mundane
(24:15):
stuff for the nature of theirbusiness and I asked them to
just be patient with me becauseI could feel the grief coming
and I just needed to cry it outand it would, and I would be
with them again.
And they were like oh yeah,absolutely, cause, I mean,
that's, that's their every day,they, they deal with that all
(24:37):
the time and it, it.
It shifted the experiencebecause it went from something
where they were sitting with avendor to they were with a human
being and it made it a muchricher transaction or a much
richer experience and not atransaction.
(24:57):
You know, we were suddenlycommuning, we were sharing in
something.
Yes, we had business to attendto, but we were doing it in the
spirit of fellowship, of beinghuman beings and supporting each
other.
And it was a beautiful thing.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
It is a beautiful thing.
There's something very magicalabout vulnerability.
I just you know.
It just draws not just anybodyto you, it draws the right
people to you.
It's like this self-selectingtool.
The minute you get vulnerable,the people that wouldn't really
(25:37):
be your people, they go away.
It makes them uncomfortable,but the people that are really
your people, it draws them rightin.
So it's like this self-selecttool.
It's beautiful.
If you want to know who yourfriends are, just cry or get mad
or just you know, and it justit's just wow.
I love it.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
Good, yeah, yeah.
I learned early in my life thatI was going to have to be okay
with crying in front of otherpeople because I did it so much.
I was like I'm just going tohave to.
This is just who I am, this iswhat I'm going to do, and I'm
going to be okay with it.
You know so.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
I'm an emotional person myself.
You know I'll make this reallybrief.
But on on Dwight's and my firstdate.
Five minutes into the date,tears streamed down his face and
and it just drew me in like amoth to flame.
It was I had my.
I had my moment, you know infrom the Jerry Maguire movie,
(26:37):
where she said you had me athello.
You know he had me at the firsttier.
That rolled down his cheek.
Yeah, yeah, it's like oh mygosh, I think, yep, this is it.
Speaker 1 (26:51):
Oh, that's great.
Speaker 2 (26:52):
And here we are.
Okay, let's go back and look ata little bit of of origin.
Let's.
Why don't you tell us a littlebit about how creativity showed
(27:16):
up for you in your earliest daysof your life, the first time
you really experienced somethingthat looked, tasted, felt like
creativity, and what was it?
How old were you and what wasit, and how did it impact you?
Speaker 1 (27:30):
Oh, boy what was it and and how did it impact you?
Speaker 2 (27:33):
oh boy um that moment when you were like, oh my god,
I have to make something, I haveto, I have to create something
um well, I, I guess it was.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
I mean, I was a huge reader as a young child, still
am, you know, and then realizinglike, oh people, this book
didn't just come out of theeffort, somebody wrote it, you
know, like that's a job that youcan have, like OK, that is the
(28:08):
job that I want, and that waslike seven, you know, when I,
when I had that realization.
So so that's one way.
I was always a club starter asa child and so I think that's
one way, you know we would.
I'd be like let's have a thisclub or this club or or whatever
(28:28):
, and so we'd like get myfriends together and form a
little club for whatever I wasinterested in.
So I think that's another waythat creativity showed up and I
see it with.
So I have my daughters right now.
I have twins who are nine and Ihave a three-year-old and I see
them do this all the time too.
(28:50):
Just start little games, orlike we're going to do a show.
Anytime you get like three kidstogether, they're going to put
on a show for you, you know, andthey'll spend the whole time
figuring out who talks first andgetting their costume together
and that will be the 15 minuteshow.
But yeah, I don't know, it'sjust like the impulse is so
(29:10):
present and they just do it.
You know we're going to do ashow, we're going to do this, so
, um, it's, it's fun to see itnow with my own own kids, but I
was definitely that way too Likelet's start a club, let's do a
show, let's do a good show forum.
You know, my cousins and Iwould get together at how or not
?
Halloween, Thanksgiving, and weput on a show for the family.
(29:33):
So it's just kind of baked into to being a kid, you know.
So it's, everything you do isis like that.
You know, it's like it's justan expression of creativity, and
it's when we get older that weforget about that.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
That, that creating clubs thing.
You're kind of demonstratingsome community leadership.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
Yeah, I would.
I would say so.
I, that's definitely likeforming community has has always
been a priority, priority tonot just me but my husband too
and um.
So looking for, looking forplaces where there's opportunity
and kind of um like okay,somebody just needs to make the
(30:22):
first invite and other otherpeople are, other people want it
, you know everybody kind oflike you know how people say
that they're lonely, like theydon't just say that there's a
whole loneliness epidemic.
But if everybody feels that way, nobody is inviting other
(30:43):
people to hang out or to startsomething.
Then you just need somebody toto get the ball rolling, you
know there's a shortage ofinitiators, for sure.
Speaker 2 (30:53):
Dwight and I are definitely initiators and we
marvel sometimes because we makeall these invites and have
people over to our house andrarely do we get an invitation.
And it's not because peopledon't like us or don't want to
hang out with us, it's justthey're not necessarily
initiators.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
Right.
Or they probably look at youall and think, oh, they're the
creativity community guys,they're probably out having
these wonderful artisticexperiences every night of the
week, like they probably havethat assumption and I think we
all go around assuming that ofother people and it's just not
true, you know, it is not true.
You know, I think you're right.
I think we all go aroundassuming that of other people
and it's just not true, you know.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
It is not true, you know.
I think you're right.
I think sometimes people feellike, oh, they entertain so
beautifully, I could nevermeasure up to that.
So we've really tried to makeour entertaining so simple that
anybody could do it.
You know, trying to literally,you know, do something that's
easily replicated.
Speaker 1 (31:55):
Yeah, for a long time , we in our house and we're out
of the rhythm of this again andwe feel it because it's the
rhythm was so beautiful but wewould have people over every
Friday and do frozen pizza and asalad, you know, and nobody's
cooking anything.
It's a frozen pizza that we gotfrom Aldi, you know, and a
salad that you know, andnobody's cooking anything.
It's a frozen pizza that we gotfrom Aldi, you know, and a
(32:15):
salad that we throw together.
Like couldn't be easier, but itwas just such a wonderful start
to our wonderful way to startthe weekend, you know, with
other people sharing a meal.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
I love the way you're making it easy.
Yeah, we just call people andsay come over, be here at six
and stop at your favoriterestaurant and pick up your
favorite takeout, so everybodygets exactly what they want to
eat.
No cooking, no cleaning.
And, although it's a littleweird when we invite them and
say you have to bring your ownfood, but then everybody tells
me oh my God, this is amazing, Iloved it.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
Right, they got time with somebody in someone else's
home.
You know that's yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (33:06):
And it's it's great the way that those unfold,
because we get to bring peopletogether from different areas of
our lives, and it's always agood time, mm, hmm.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
Yeah, absolutely Always a good time, like a
remarkable time.
It's just not sort of good.
It's usually so good that Idon't the nights we entertain.
Sometimes I don't sleep becauseI'm just so jazzed.
It's just so amazing.
I can't you know come downenough to actually fall asleep.
It's crazy.
So writing, writing, is a veryand for many people a very
(33:36):
cathartic thing, a very.
Do you find that or not?
Do you find?
But how has writing changed theway you experience you?
Hmm.
Speaker 1 (33:57):
You know it's really interesting.
So Elizabeth Gilbert has saidthat if you write like the best
I'm not going to quote hercorrectly, but something like
there's she writes when herfiction, when she writes fiction
(34:19):
.
So she writes nonfiction andfiction and she says that in her
fiction those are the memoirs.
You know, like you write a bookof fiction and then you're you
realize at the end like you'vegot your, your thumbprints, your
fingerprints all over itbecause you didn't know you were
working out that particularissue.
But then like oh, there, thereit is.
(34:41):
You know, you really just kindof gave it all away in the
fiction when you thought youwere talking about stuff that
you just made up, you know.
So I found that to be trueWorks of fiction that I've done,
I've realized at the end of itor midway through like oh, I
must have really been wanting towork out this particular thing
(35:04):
and that's the impetus behindthat, and you can only see it in
retrospect.
So that's one.
It's kind of a very interesting, mysterious form of therapy
that you do when you writefiction.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
And does that, when you look back and realize that
you were writing about someaspect of your own life, does
that realization shift yourperspective, the way you see it
or the way you're experiencingit, as opposed to the way you
experienced it before, you hadthe awareness that you were
writing about your ownexperience?
Speaker 1 (35:43):
I think it, yeah, it's well.
Yeah, it kind of allows me tohave more compassion and empathy
for the people who maybe I was,maybe, just maybe, in the
fiction.
They were a fiction, they werea, uh avatar for someone else in
(36:06):
my real life, perhaps, you know.
And so the fiction allows me tolike, if I'm, if I'm writing,
if I'm engaged in story, if I'mcoming from a place where I have
empathy for the characters,which is the only correct place
to come from then at the end ofit I can kind of gain some
perspective on the situation andhave more empathy for that
individual in my actual life,even though absolutely none of
(36:30):
that was intentional.
You know, I didn't like startout saying, oh, this, this
person is this person and I'mgoing to do this and you know,
um, so, yeah, so allowing me tohave more, more empathy for, um,
people in my actual life andjust people in general.
I guess I'm not sure if thatwas the question but I think
(36:51):
that's beautiful.
Speaker 4 (36:53):
I think it speaks to what it is that we we see in.
Well, there's a lot that's beenwritten about the value of
appreciating fiction forincreasing empathy.
How has your intensifiedexperience of it you know being
engaged in the, the writing actfor so long in your own life
(37:18):
informed how it is that youconsume others works?
You know the things that makeit to screen or the stage or
even other works of fiction?
Speaker 1 (37:33):
Um well, I guess I would.
I, how is it?
Can change the way I consumeother works.
I would say, as a critic of it,um, and I don't mean that um in
(37:55):
a in a bad way, but somethingthat I, you, I do a lot of
reading for other people, likehelping them with their
manuscripts and with particularscenes, and I also just read a
ton in my own life, and so Iwill, um, I will put down a book
if I don't believe if the iftheir characters aren't grounded
(38:18):
enough and if I don't believethat there's a really good
reason for them to do whateverthing that they've done.
So that's so, and I used to notstop books.
I used to finish all of them,no matter what.
But I don't do that anymore.
I'll put them down, and thereason that I put them down is
(38:40):
often because I don't believethem.
I don't do that anymore.
I'll put them down, and thereason that I put them down is
often because I don't believethem.
I don't think that the authorwas tapped in enough to the
character to draw believablelines between who they are and
the choices that they make.
Speaker 4 (38:56):
That's fair.
Speaker 2 (38:58):
Yeah, yeah.
No, that's interesting.
I, I actually really I get that.
I I get that.
Speaker 1 (39:08):
It's almost like it's an inauthent you're reading
something that doesn't feelauthentic yeah, and I talk about
that a lot too, because becausein my business I help with non,
I ghostwrite nonfiction and Icoach people who are writing
nonfiction books, and I say alot like it really doesn't
(39:30):
matter what you talk about, itdoesn't matter your level of
expertise, I mean, it matterssome.
You need to have a grounding inwhat you're talking about and
not just making things up.
But people think that they needsome outside qualifier in order
to write their book, and thatis not.
(39:51):
It doesn't exist.
You know, there's nothing thatyou can hang your hat on and say
like, okay, now, now I'm ready,now's the time, um, but yeah, I
say, it doesn't matter what itis.
What matters is your authenticvoice coming through and the
story, stories that you're ableto tell and you being real on
(40:12):
the page.
Even if you're talking aboutsomething that is like quote,
unquote for business, you know,or meant to put paint, you as an
expert, like I really don'tcare, um, what that is.
Or some people say, like mytopic is too boring, I don't
know what I can talk about, like, as long as there's a strong
(40:34):
voice and as long as it'sgrounded and you're telling real
stories and you're being realwith people, you know.
You're not trying to presentyourself as some expert or
that's what.
That's what draws people in,that's what gets them interested
in your subject, even if it'sboring, you know.
(40:56):
So, yeah, that's.
Speaker 2 (40:59):
Yeah, you can deliver anything, as long as you bring
that vulnerability into itexactly yeah, there's definitely
a call back to what we weresaying earlier.
Speaker 4 (41:11):
People are drawn to people.
They want to be able to see alight when they look inside.
They want to know that they'rethey're touching someone that's
real and not just sending thingsinto the void.
Speaker 1 (41:27):
Right.
Speaker 2 (41:28):
Jennifer, you spoke earlier about working on the
book deal for 10 years and youmentioned the word heartbreaking
, and I think that it would beof great value to our listeners
to hear how you moved through,how you process that heartbreak
in a manner that enabled you tokeep going.
Speaker 1 (41:53):
Well, I'll say that I'll specify that this was not
just one project, like there'sdifferent projects and I've,
like there's different projectsand, um, I've, I've, uh, had
plenty of different projectsover the year.
So that's the first thing is todon't get stuck on one, always
be willing to try something new,um, and so, yeah, I, if, if, if
(42:18):
you're a if, what you love isbreaking your heart, I guess,
then to have people in yourcorner who get it, who you can
express that openly with, whoyou can cry with about it, and
don't skip over the place whereyou have to, like, feel your
feelings and and cry it out, um,and do that, you know, and then
(42:39):
I feel that inevitably givesway to fresh energy and fresh
ideas and a willingness tochange it up and try something
different.
And that's essentially alwaysthe answer is to try something
new, start a new project, findsomething else that captures
(43:00):
your love and attention and,yeah, keep on going with it.
Speaker 2 (43:08):
Iterate.
Speaker 1 (43:10):
Right.
Speaker 2 (43:11):
Iterate, so I'm formulating a question, a
question have you everexperienced a sense of
resentment toward your calling?
I mean, you had this calling towrite.
(43:33):
Has there ever been a timewhere you just felt resentful
that you had actually beencalled to do that and if so, how
did you navigate that?
Speaker 1 (43:39):
Oh, plenty of times, yeah, plenty of times, I felt
like, oh, it'd be so easier, somuch easier if I could just get
a job you know, or like to besatisfied in some different
career.
But what are a bunch of whatifs worth at the end of the day?
Right, like they're not worthanything.
We only have this one life inthis one experience, and so, um
(44:04):
can you can make the best of it,and so, um, yeah.
So community is key, findingpeople who who understand what
you're going through and havehad similar experiences, and
just people who get it and um,and people who you can be real
with.
And space Space is a good thing, space and rest, you know,
(44:27):
between one project and the next, and then you get fresh energy
and you get fresh ideas andyou're just willing to go do it
again.
Speaker 2 (44:38):
I'm really glad you brought up community.
Let's talk a little bit moreabout that.
I'd love to know what communitylooks like in your life, how it
shows up and how it has, inwhat ways it's, benefited your
process.
Speaker 1 (44:59):
Yeah, well, it's great to be involved with what
other people are doing, likeit's great to like being part of
a critique group has is reallyimportant to me, and I've had
periods in my life where I'vehad it and where I've not, or
I've had it again and where I'venot, you know, but I've.
I've realized that it's.
It is really important for meto um, make a commitment to that
(45:21):
.
And it's always inconvenient,right, it's never convenient to
meet with other people and toalign schedules and to make time
to read their work and offerfeedback and things like that.
That's never convenient.
But, um, I'm, I have a groupthat does that and it's it's
once a month, you know, it's not, it's not super onerous, but I
(45:41):
always leave those energized.
And so there's writing group.
Then I have, like I don't know,groups at church.
I said something the other daylike oh, I have a group, this, I
have my writing group this weekand my husband was like well, I
forget, you're a part of somany groups.
(46:02):
I'm like no, I'm not, I'm onlya part of two.
And he's like you have yourbook club, you have your writing
group, you have your creativemornings, you have this.
And he named like five things,like okay, it's true, I am a
part of a lot of groups, but Imean, my life is so I write a
lot of, I'm in my house a lot ofthe time, especially now that
(46:22):
my kids are at school, and sothere is a very solitary aspect
of my life and just being a momof young kids period can be very
isolating.
So that is a big strain too,and that's kind of why it's
necessary, I think, for me tojoin and start as many groups as
(46:42):
I am a part of.
Speaker 2 (46:44):
You know you're demonstrating and I want to
really call this out you'redemonstrating that there are
certain types of creativity thatare traditionally done in
solitude.
It's probably hard to write ifyou're in a really noisy,
distracting place, and so youget in a quiet, still place to
do your writing.
(47:05):
But then there's other aspectsof your process that you don't
need to have quiet, and that'swhere that community comes in.
I think we miss the boatsometimes in saying, well, I
can't people say I can't paintwhen there's other people around
, or I can't write when there'sother people around, or I can't
whatever when there's otherpeople around, and that's not it
(47:27):
.
You know we're not saying youhave to do everything in
community, but community isvital and you know to pull
community in in those times.
And that's what you're reallydescribing right now the value
of, yes, you write in your home,kids off, gone to school or
(47:48):
daycare, and you're in solitude,quiet, stillness, writing.
But then there's other part ofthe process, like the critique
aspect of it, and I thinkthere's a lot of people that are
afraid of that.
I'm kind of shifting a littlebit here, but I think there's a
lot of people that when you say,oh, feedback group or critique
(48:08):
group.
They're really anxious abouthaving somebody shoot them down
and if the group is set upproperly and managed properly
and there's some guidelines thatyou go by, you don't ever have
to worry about somebody shootingyou down.
It's not a place of judgment.
Have you experienced that inyour group?
(48:30):
That is the feedback group.
Speaker 1 (48:34):
Yeah, there's definitely like rules you know,
of codes of conduct you know forand it's it's small right now
it's it's like three to fourpeople as well, as that's also
been true of other critiquegroups that I've been part of in
the past.
But, yeah, if you don't sharewith other people, like if, if
you're not having people whooffer feedback on it not just
(48:57):
offer feedback, but who can bewith you as you're developing
and you know sharing then itjust doesn't, it doesn't feel
real and it's too easy to giveup on.
And I think that's probably whymost people do like they start
and they start down a road andhave a good idea and then
nothing comes of it because theyjust they feel like they have
(49:20):
to figure it all out themselvesand then present this like
perfect thing to other peopleand that is just so, not the way
that that things happen.
Speaker 2 (49:30):
Thank you for saying that, man.
I hope the listeners out there,you know, hit that little
rewind button by about a minuteand listen to what she said
again, because that was reallypowerful.
You don't have to have itperfect, it's not about
perfection and it doesn't haveto be finished.
We do some.
(49:51):
We, as creatives, do so manythings that are just full on
sabotage, self-sabotage.
Speaker 1 (49:58):
Right and only like when you're missing it and you
get it back, do you realize like, oh, this is what I should have
been doing all along.
You know, this is this is theway that you get better, you get
new ideas, you get other peoplewith you for the highs and the
lows.
Speaker 2 (50:18):
I mean I'm I'm hearing you say that the
different groups, your community, these little communities that
you're in, are kind of thelifesaver.
They're the lifeline.
Speaker 1 (50:31):
Yeah, I think so, I really do.
Yeah, and there's, you know,like I said, it's never
convenient, it's neverconvenient to get together with
people, but I think it'snecessary.
Speaker 2 (50:45):
Yeah, and worthwhile even though it.
Yes, well, and I think thatwe've kind of gotten at a time
because we're so busy that mostanything like that's
inconvenient.
You know, we have to stop ourbusyness and we're very, very
like, addicted and dedicated toour busyness as human beings.
Speaker 4 (51:08):
Speaking of, I have to make it to another meeting,
so I'm curious to see how thisthis ends up.
Speaker 2 (51:17):
Oh, I wish you told me that we were.
You had a hard stop.
Do you need to go right thissecond?
I do?
All right, go and I'll finishup.
Okay.
That's the first time he's everhad to dip out in the middle of
the episode.
He didn't tell me that he had ahard stop.
So what we do at the end ofevery episode is we do a round
(51:42):
of rapid fire questions forrapid fire answers.
Okay.
So are you ready.
Sure.
Question number one what's yourcreative spirit animal?
Speaker 1 (52:06):
I'm going to say dolphin, because it's the first
thing that came to my mind.
Yeah, they have fun and I'm allabout making it fun.
Whatever yeah.
Speaker 2 (52:15):
And they're one of the species of mammals that are
closest to humans.
Okay.
Okay, choice Studio space oroutdoor inspiration when you're
writing.
Speaker 1 (52:30):
I'll say I'm inside a lot, so I'll say outdoor.
Oh, okay.
I don't actually write outdoors, but in terms of where
inspiration can flow, I'll sayoutdoors.
I take a lot of walks, so thatcounts yeah, I love walks.
Speaker 2 (52:48):
What's the best advice you've ever received from
another creative?
Don't quit, try somethingdifferent, keep going that's
pretty sage advice and uh yeahthat's pretty sage advice so do
(53:15):
you have anything else that youwould like to just off the top
of your head?
Leave our listeners with anywords of wisdom that you would
like to just off the top of yourhead.
Leave our listeners with anywords of wisdom that you have
learned in your journey that youthink are kind of universal,
and they would benefit fromhearing.
Speaker 1 (53:28):
Well, I talked to a lot of people who want to write
books.
So if anybody's listening andthey feel that urge, then I
would say you have my vote ofconfidence that it is something
that you should do because youwant to.
(53:48):
You know so, and I think thatthe journey of doing that, who
you become in the journey ofdoing that, that's enough reason
to do it.
So I'm always encouragingpeople who feel that pull to go
for it.
Speaker 2 (54:06):
I love the way you word that who you become in that
journey.
I love that.
Thank you for that very much.
You're welcome.
Jennifer, this has been amazing.
Yes.
Yeah, I have loved hearing yourstory and certainly the depth
of the questions that you werewilling to go to.
Do you feel like maybe in thisparticular conversation you were
(54:30):
able to put yourself out therea little bit more?
Speaker 1 (54:35):
I think so, yes, so again, thank you for giving me
the opportunity.
I really appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (54:40):
Good, yes, so again, thank you for giving me the
opportunity.
I really appreciate it.
Good, good and I guess one lastquestion you know, because
sometimes people will say afterthe interview wow, you know, I
saw some things about my ownstory that I had never quite
like.
They connected dots.
Have you had any awarenesses oranything bubble to the surface
as we've had this conversation?
Speaker 1 (55:00):
you had any awarenesses or anything bubble
to the surface, as, as we've hadthis conversation.
Um, yeah, well, I, I appreciatedwhat you all shared about um,
what you and Dwight shared aboutbeing vulnerable with people,
um, in real, in real life, inreal time, and I've I've just
I'll be noodling on what thatlooks like in my particular
context, where I am like I don'twant to say siloed, but I'm
(55:24):
often pretty solitary and likeit's my work hours and now I'm a
mom and now I, you know, likethere's a lot of um, I have my
my mom friends and my workfriends and my writing friends
and a lot of our um, a lot ofour meeting is like asynchronous
or on on zoom or you know.
(55:44):
There's a lot of community, butthere's also a lot of solitary
time too, and that's somethingI'm.
Yeah, just, who can I um?
Who can I talk to?
Who can I be real with?
How can I seek that out moreand more, um, even though, like
I've said it so many times, it'sso, it's inconvenient, but that
doesn't, that doesn't matter,right.
Speaker 2 (56:05):
Yeah, I'm hearing the makings of a small club.
You know.
It could be just a circle ofpeople that get together and
just talk not so much abouttheir creativity but about
what's going on in their heart,just create that safe,
vulnerable space.
(56:25):
That would be amazing.
And it could be just three orfour people, because community
happens when there's two or more.
Speaker 1 (56:34):
That's right yeah.
Speaker 2 (56:37):
You know you're that I'll start a club person.
There you go, and it could beall just about you know, leaning
into your vulnerability alittle bit more and supporting
each other and doing that,creating a safe space for that
to show up.
I think it's amazing whathappens when we do it first,
because I've really learned theminute I come to the table and
(56:57):
get vulnerable, I have giveneverybody else permission.
Now Nobody likes to go first,so when I go first, I give the
rest of the room the opportunityto go second, third and fourth.
And it's just kind of magical.
So I'm often the one to raisemy hand, because it's not
because I'm just like pick me,pick me.
(57:19):
It's more about I just see thatif, if somebody will just step
up and I'm willing to do it,then everybody else just follows
suit.
It's like the little dominoesthat all fall like that.
Thank you so much for your timetoday.
It's been amazing.
Speaker 1 (57:35):
Thank you.
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