#029: Becoming the Vessel: Finding Flow in Creative Destruction With Eric Breish

"You've got to have the fire." These words from metal artist Eric Breish capture the essence of the creative journey—that inexplicable burning passion that pulls you back to your craft even after declaring "I'm done" just a day before.

Eric's path to becoming a full-time artist winds through unexpected territory. From Marine Corps service to IT work to audio engineering, he eventually discovered his artistic voice through metal—creating three-dimensional works that challenge perception and evoke physical responses in viewers. What makes his art truly special is impossible to capture digitally; the way light reflects or absorbs from precisely scored metal surfaces creates a dimensional experience that photography, with its "one eye," can’t reproduce.

The conversation explores the spiritual side of creativity, with Eric describing himself as a vessel through which art flows. "I almost wasn't present for it," he explains about his best creative moments, when he steps "outside of myself and lets everything flow through." This state represents the delicate balance between technical control and surrender that defines true artistic flow.

Perhaps most moving is Eric's reflection on how heartbreak and personal struggles have shaped his most powerful work. After experiencing profound loss, he allowed himself to "go to the very bottom of the ocean and sit on the floor... and really feel everything," transforming that pain into a meaningful exhibition. His wisdom resonates beyond art: "Don't run from the emotions that you really don't want to look at and you don't want to feel, because that can be really the greatest reward you'll ever have."

For anyone on the creative path, Eric's journey offers both inspiration and practical insight. From writing a life-changing letter to his mentor to finally quitting his day job in 2015, he shows how courage and authenticity fuel artistic growth. Whether you're just beginning or facing a moment of doubt, this conversation reminds us why we keep coming back to create again and again.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:10):
And it's everybody right.
I don't think it's limited tothe person that's just starting,
or the Mark Bradford's of theworld, or what.
Everybody, at every singlelevel, has that experience, I
believe.

Speaker 2 (00:23):
I can say I've experienced it multiple times in
just what we're doing and whatwe're creating and it's and ours
is not art.
You know, I've gone through theperiods where I told Dwight,
fuck it, I'm, I'm done.
You know and you know.
And then the next day I'm backdoing it again.

Speaker 1 (00:43):
You got to have the fire right, like that thing.
Whatever you're doing, whateveryou're passionate about, it's
got to be so, you've got to beso.
On fire for it to where you canhave that day and wake up the
next day and say, okay, I'mgoing back, I'm going back to it
, yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:56):
Beautifully spoken.

Speaker 3 (01:14):
Hello and welcome to another edition of For the Love
of Creatives podcast.
I am Connections and CommunityGuy Dwight and I'm joined by our
other Connections and CommunityGuy and host Maddox, by our
other Connections in Communityguy and host Maddox, and today
we are joined by our featuredguest, eric Breisch.
Welcome.

Speaker 2 (01:31):
Eric hey guys, how are you doing?
Thanks for having me We'vereally been looking forward to
this, eric.
Yes, after that briefconversation with you several
months ago, we know that youhave probably some incredible
stories to tell, and I know thatyou know we're excited, so I
know it's going to be good forthe listeners as well.

Speaker 1 (01:51):
Yeah, I know We've been trying to get this together
for some time, so it's nice tofinally connect.

Speaker 2 (01:56):
Very much so.

Speaker 3 (01:59):
Now we met at a gallery here in town where you
happen to be one of the artistsat the Deborah Ferrari Gallery
or the Ferrari Gallery yeah, andI have to say that there's
definitely an experience of yourwork there.

(02:22):
I have seen a lot of your workonline subsequently and it
cannot be captured.
It is a sensory experience andI will just say that, as one of
those poor, tortured souls who,in the early 90s, got to see all
of the people looking throughthat three-dimensional art and

(02:44):
seeing things, I never sawanything.
There is something specialabout the things that you
produce, because I feel like I'mhaving my turn, because I am
having like a full bodyexperience when I get to see
some of your pieces.

Speaker 2 (03:02):
Yeah, that guitar that night at the opening, that
guitar that you showed us wasjust.
We have talked about it manytimes in groups of people.
We got to tell you what we saw,you know, and we describe it.
Of course, the description cando absolutely no justice
whatsoever, but yeah, thatincredible piece.

Speaker 1 (03:23):
I appreciate that and you guys are, like some, of the
first people to see that guitar.
That was the first time thatI've actually showed that in
public.
So you know, we've worked onthat project for about six or
seven years and it took us along time to get to the point
where we were actually ready to,you know, to let that out into
the public and we've gotten somereally, really great feedback

(03:43):
and you know, it's just one ofthose, those types of projects,
so there's nothing else like itin the world and, um, and it's
been really fun to see people'sreactions on, you know, not only
seeing the work but then alsorealizing that it's an actual
playable instrument.
And when you take it off thepanel and you put it in
somebody's hands, especiallylike a musician, um it it tends

(04:04):
to blow them away.
So it's been really fun.
And the type of metal work thatI do and that kind of
three-dimensional experiencethat you were talking about is
so hard to describe to people orto show on videos or to show in
pictures, and so that's alwaysbeen one of my biggest

(04:24):
challenges in art is trying toget people to understand what it
is that I do, because we'vekind of moved into this very
digital society where everybodyviews things on social media or,
you know, on computers and allof that.
So that's been reallychallenging for me and and it's
really cool to get people infront of the work and get to

(04:45):
experience it and and and seethem actually have that, that,
that true, um, you know,experience that I'm trying to
get them to have, and when theyfinally get it and see it, then
it's like the aha moment and so,yeah, it was really cool to to
you know, have you guys therefor that?

Speaker 2 (05:01):
Yeah, it was, it was a treat.
We felt very honored that wewere the first to get to see
that and I took some photos and,I think, a video and and
although they were cool, theydidn't even begin to really show
the true nature of of the pieceand what it looks like with
real eyes rather than artificialcamera lenses.
You know, camera lenses, yeah.

Speaker 1 (05:23):
Yeah, the camera has one eye, that's.
That's like the problem thatthat we found is that, um, since
the camera has one eye, it itdoesn't, it's not able to tell
depth and dimension, uh, likeour two eyes do.
Right, and so that thatexperience, until we can figure
out a way to kind of replicatehow our eyes work and how our
sensory you know perceptionswork, then it's, then it's.

(05:44):
You know, it's going to be achallenge to kind of present
that in a way that makes senseonline.

Speaker 2 (05:50):
There's bound to be a way to do that.
I suspect you know, cause I'veI've heard of people using
multiple cameras and thenstacking images to give it that
dimensional look.
Yeah, there's somebody outthere that could could figure
that out for sure.

Speaker 1 (06:06):
I have a lot of friends, a lot of, in fact.
I just had this experienceyesterday a guy that you know,
he's a filmmaker, he's been inHollywood and all of this.
And I have several friends thatare very, very you know they.
They do a lot of music videos,they shoot for television and
all of that.
And they always come in andthey say, uh, I've got this idea
, I know how to do it, and wespend the next few hours going

(06:29):
through it and it's like andthen they always end and they're
like that's a lot harder than Ithought, um, and, and you guys
just interviewed somebody,matthew um um, in in Dallas and
uh, and he did the same thing atan opening.
He's like, oh, I got it.
You know, I know how to capturethis and edit it and all that.

(06:49):
And he came back to me a fewweeks later and he's like hey, I
just I can't, I can't quite doit.
So I'm like I know, I know Iget it.

Speaker 2 (06:57):
It's definitely a code to be cracked for sure.
Hey, before we go any further,Eric, we know a little bit about
you, but why don't you give ourlisteners just a little bit of
an overview about who you areand what you do before we jump
into the big questions?

Speaker 1 (07:13):
Yeah, sure, I don't know how far back that you want
to go, but a brief kind of, Iguess, biography is.
I grew up in basically Texas,oklahoma.
I graduated high school out ofHouston At 18, I went into the
Marine Corps and I was an activeduty Marine for four years out

(07:33):
in California, did that fouryear stint, got out, went to, I
worked a little bit in IT whichis kind of what I did in the
Marine Corps and then ended upgoing to school in Florida and I
went to a school that focusedon music and entertainment and

(08:02):
all of these things that areinvolved in.
I graduated there and I got adegree in music recording,
basically audio engineering, andso when I graduated, it was a
really interesting time becauseall of the home recording was
starting to happen.
And when that thing exploded,then it just basically kind of

(08:25):
killed that industry, uh,meaning that all of the big
studios, uh it, it shrunk downto really big studios and you
only have so many engineers thatare in there.
So it just became this, thisindustry.
That was really really, um, Iguess, saturated, if you will,
and uh, so I started doing homerecordings and I really loved
doing that, love music.

(08:47):
I think that that's why Ibecame an artist ultimately.
And so I realized thatsaturation and I went back to
that school and I got a degreein entertainment business and
that opened my eyes a little bitmore to, I guess, if you want
to call it, the money side ofthings and how to survive as a
creative, and that's where thatseed got planted on.

(09:09):
That's really what I wanted todo, so graduated from that
program and then went back toCalifornia, became a.
I joined this company it wasvery small, it was like two or
three people, and it was acompany that designed clothing
for surf and skate brands Volcom, billabong, quicksilver and I

(09:29):
did that and during that processdiscovered because I was on the
design side half the time, halfdesign, half logistics and it
gave me kind of this creativestreak into the visual side of
things, because we were doingt-shirts and hats and all of
that and I thought, oh man, Ireally love putting together

(09:49):
things that are visual and Inever really had that experience
before.
Um, and when I paired that withmusic it was like, oh, I can
listen to music and be inspiredby that and create this thing
while I'm while I'm doing that.
So it was like this mixture andit was an aha moment, uh, and I
thought I don't know how I'mwhile I'm doing that.
So it was like this mixture andit was an aha moment and I
thought I don't know how I'mgoing to.
You know, like, capitalize onthat and you know where can I

(10:11):
bring that to?
What can I do that with?
And so I think over time, thatseed was planted and and, and I
started to try to think you knowhow I could do those things.
In the meantime, I moved back toTexas with and roomed with one
of my friends and, uh, and got areal job, got back into the
corporate world and started, youknow, supporting myself and

(10:32):
making money.
And, um, in one night I had adream that I had painted this
painting and I still can kind oflike see it in my mind, and
that was 2006.
Painted this painting, and Istill can kind of like see it in
my mind, and that was 2006.
And I woke up and I told myroommate about it and he said

(10:53):
well, I took a class in paintinga long time ago in school and I
still have a toolbox in thegarage and it has all these
paintbrushes and paints in thereso you can have that if you
want it.
And I went to Hobby Lobby afterwork that night and I bought a
canvas and I brought it home andI propped it up against the
wall and I took his toolbox andI opened it up and all these

(11:14):
brushes and they were hard andhe had all these different
paints and some of them weredifferent viscosities and they
had different like one was oiland one was acrylic, and I had
no idea what the difference was,right.
So I was just kind of tryingdifferent things and using
different things and I realizedvery quickly oil and acrylics
are very different, right?

(11:34):
So, um, so I messed around alittle bit.
I ended up painting my firstpainting and just kind of sat
back and and just thought aboutthe process and like how that
made me feel and, um, and Ishowed it to my roommate and he
was like that's not bad, youknow it's, it's really not bad.
And it was a picture of aflower, which is really funny

(11:54):
because I don't do anythingfigurative.
Um, and so I painted thispicture and and you know, I just
really enjoyed this process.
It was very therapeutic, and soI just started like grabbing
things, paper and everythingelse.
And I started, you know, makingpictures and and doing this
thing and I would show people,and so it was just a doorway to

(12:14):
kind of to to open myself up andsomehow bring in this
creativity that I was, that Iwas looking for because I'd
gotten out of music, I was inthis corporate setting and I
didn't know exactly how I couldrelease that, and so painting

(12:35):
for me was kind of the door thatopened and I did that for about
a year or two and I lived inSan Antonio at the time and then
I moved to houston because Igot a job transfer and that kind
of brought me into into thehouston art scene and it was in
a really big way and really biggalleries and really big artists

(12:55):
, uh, and that's where I met mymentor, whose name is andreas,
not abami's, from germany, um,and he's a really well-known
artist around the world andmuseums and all of that.
And you know, to make a longstory short, he he kind of like
brought me under his wing.
There's a whole story that goesinto it.
I've explained it on maybe apodcast before, like in writing.

(13:18):
I wrote him a letter.
The letter hit him at the righttime.
He got a bunch of lettersbefore you know from all people
all around the world, and itjust hit him at the right time.
He got a bunch of lettersbefore you know from all people
all around the world, and itjust hit him at the right time.
We ended up meeting before ashow in Houston.
We had dinner and we justbecame fast friends and from
that point on I started visitinghim in California and you know,

(13:39):
he just kind of slowly took meunder his wing and he had never
shown anybody in 50 years whathe did.
He didn't allow people in hisstudio, so I would just visit
and I would help him with things, I would wash panels and I
would clean things off andorganize things or anything that
he asked me to do, and I wouldsit in the back in this dark
room because that's how we work,and I would watch him work for

(14:00):
hours and hours and hours in alldifferent capacities and it was
such an eye-opening experienceto me, the process of a real
master making work, and it wasso like it was unlike anything
I'd ever seen before and I wasgetting such an education around
that, but not only in thecreation of art.

(14:22):
But he had never.
He's.
He's twice my age, so he's 81now, um, and at the time he was
in his sixties and he had neverhad a real job before.
He graduated from high schooland he became an artist and
that's all he's ever done.
So I'd never met anybody likethat before.
And he, you know, kind of gaveme permission and all these
different ways to um to let goof a lot of the programming that

(14:46):
I've had growing up, because Icame from a pretty structured
environment, um, and I didn'treally know what it meant to be
an artist.
And that was an education forme, not only how to take a
medium and make something out ofit, but also to, to to live as
an artist and to, uh, you knowwhat does that mean?

(15:06):
You don't have to wake up atseven o'clock in the morning and
go to work and do this thing.
And it was like he lived insuch a free and Bohemian way
that when I got back to my reallife I was like, oh no, I don't
know.
I don't know if I can continueon with this anymore, because
I've seen the light and it's andit's really how I want to live.

(15:28):
And so when I broke that to myfamily and I was actually
married at the time and I brokethat to my my wife and she was
like what are you talking about?
You know, you've got this greatjob, you make plenty of money,
and you know you're, you've goteverything, security wise, that
you need.
And it's like what?
And you know you're, you've goteverything, security wise, that
you need.
And it's like what do you mean?

(15:48):
That you want to become afull-time artist?
And a lot of people just didn'tunderstand that.
So that for me, was um, was areal fork in the road on how I
was going to live the rest of mylife, and it took me from that
time about 2008 was when thatwas happening all the way until

(16:09):
2015,.
At the end of 2015, when Ifinally was able to pull the
trigger, because I would go towork from six o'clock in the
morning until six o'clock atnight, and then I would come
home and I would get in thestudio and that's that's what my
routine was for about seven oreight years.
I wouldn't go out on theweekends and, you know, do all
these things that young peoplewere doing and uh, I was like in

(16:32):
there, kind of like honing mycraft and figuring it out and
really working towards somethingand I would have.
I was having some group showsand I was going to a lot of
openings and, um, just reallyimmersing myself in the artist's
life after I got off of work.
So that balance was reallytough for a long time and I
finally got to a point where mywork was good enough to where it

(16:53):
was in a gallery and it wasselling, and then I just finally
threw some encouragement of theperson that I was with at the
time that just said this is thehard stop date.
This is when you're going toquit your job.
And I fought it all the way upuntil literally like the last
second when I knew that I wasgoing to quit that day and I was

(17:14):
telling myself oh, don't do it,you know it's too risky.
And I had a meeting and itdidn't go very well and I walked
out of that meeting.
It was like I'm done, I'm goingto walk in there and quit, and
so I did, and that for me waswas like jumping off the cliff
and learning how to fly on theway down, and it I just really

(17:35):
haven't looked back ever sincethen and that has been almost 10
years now that and I've learneda lot of things along the way
and and that that you can'treally know in the beginning,
right Like if you knew thosethings you would never probably
jump.
You just kind of had to do itand and so, yeah, I've had a
really interesting life betweenmilitary and corporate and all

(17:58):
of these different scenariosthat led me to art and and then
now you know doing it for almost10 years, so it's been a real
wild ride.

Speaker 3 (18:08):
That's amazing.
Uh well, first of all, thankyou for your service.
I think that we were enlistedat about the same time.
Oh yeah, I was in the army from98 to 2002.

Speaker 1 (18:20):
Yeah, exactly Almost yeah, 97 to 2001.
So yeah, very close.
That's crazy.

Speaker 3 (18:27):
I'm curious how, how did the, how did those early
experiences when you were in theMarine Corps?
What have you brought of thatwith you as you've progressed
and and transitioned into beinga full-time artist?

Speaker 1 (18:47):
Yeah, I've thought about that a lot and I wasn't
your average.
Like you know, a lot of peoplego into the military.
They really adopt thatlifestyle and they're very I
guess they kind of become thatand I didn't really.
It didn't really happen for me.
I was always kind of eccentricand on the on the edge and all
of this.
You know, I was a Sergeant atthe time.

(19:08):
I had other Marines under meand so I played the game well,
if you will, but I always hadthis side to me that was kind of
rebellious and and I knew thatI didn't quite fit in.
I knew that I wasn't going togo on beyond four years.
It was like, you know, this isa great experience, but it's not
who I am, but I but it did.

(19:31):
What it did was when I graduatedas a young, as a young man,
from high school and went intothis.
I needed this discipline, Ineeded this, you know, this
foundation that was going tokind of like make me mature
quickly and gain some skills inlife that I needed in order to
like survive.
So I went through all of that.
I had a great time.
I met some of my best friendsand and I never um, I never

(19:53):
regret going through thatservice and I still carry to
this day.
You know, you get a lot offoundational things in your, in
your personality, that you, thatyou keep with you, and I still
use those to this day.
And I always look back and it'slike that's the hardest thing
that I've ever gone through, um,physically, and maybe even, um,
I guess maybe emotionally, Idon't know.

(20:13):
I've been through some things,but, but, um, but that was a
real at such a young age, thatwas a real pivotal part for me
to to, to, to grow up, and itshapes me in a way.
So I do carry that with me andI think it's discipline and I
think it's, you know,perseverance and all of these
things that the military putsinto you that make you almost

(20:34):
not shy away from from any typeof experience that's going to be
difficult or challenging toovercome.
And I'm really, I'm reallyfortunate that I went through
that because it gave me a prettystrong resolve.

Speaker 2 (20:50):
It's beautiful Eric you mentioned the word
rebellious and I think that's aninteresting word.
What came up for me a fewmoments earlier was the word
defiant.
But just realizing that society, in order to step away from the
social mores, the belief thatit's not a real job, the belief

(21:11):
that you know you can't do thatfull time, how will you ever
make a living, all the stuffthat we get hit with from
everybody around us family,friends, co-workers, you name it
you really do.
In order to do what you've done, to pull away from it all and
go full time as an artist, youhave to be rebellious.
You really do.
In order to do what you've done, to pull away from it all and
go full-time as an artist, youhave to be rebellious, you have
to be defiant, you have to becourageous.

Speaker 1 (21:37):
Yeah, and you don't really get that kind of
education right, especially ifyou go to.
I didn't go to art school, butI know I have tons of friends
that have mfas and all that andthey go through school and they
learn how to paint.
But but the schools don't teachyou how to be an artist and
they don't teach you how to dealwith family and they don't
teach you how to deal with allof these things.
So the only way through that isto is to jump and and and go

(22:03):
fully into and you can't reallylisten to anybody because
everyone is going to tell youthat it's not the right path or
it's not the way to go or it'stoo risky and you're not going
to be able to support yourself.
And I think I would be doing adisservice if I said you know
anybody can do it.
And then you know, go off andquit your job.
And you know anybody can do it.
And then you know, go off andand quit your job.

(22:24):
And you know I'm not going tosay that because there are
inherent risks to it and youknow it's, there's, there's, no,
there's a reason why they saystarving artists.
There's a reason why they theyshow people in.
You know, I watched Basquiat theother night and you realize how
hard his life was, even when hewas one of the most prolific

(22:48):
artists on the planet.
Even during his lifetime he wasstarting to get such huge
recognition but you saw how hardit was to make it and to be
that.
And so I want to acknowledgethat.
I want to acknowledge howdifficult it is.
But if you really have thatfire in you and you really want
to do this thing and you want toacknowledge how difficult it is
, but if you really have thatfire in you and you really want
to do this thing and you want toexperience the artist's life,

(23:10):
then you can't really payattention to what people say and
you can't also pay attention towhat your, your fears are,
because the fears are alwaysgoing to get in your way and
they're always going to keep youfrom really stepping into that
role and be willing and open toexperiencing the lows and the

(23:30):
highs.
Because even if you, you know,even after 10 years of being a
full-time artist, I experiencedboth of those on a daily basis,
every single day, and you can gothrough that full range, you
know you can have this greatyear of building a body of work
and then have the opening and itcan be successful.
And then the next day you getback to your studio and you're
like, oh no, now I got to startall over again.

(23:52):
What am I going to do?
What do I have to say?
Now, you know, maybe that wasjust a flash in the pan, type of
thing.
So the full range of emotionsthat you go through every single
day as an artist is justsomething that you have to
accept, and people that are notin this type of position or have
not gone through this can'treally understand that, so you

(24:12):
can't really listen to whatthey're saying if they haven't
been through it.
It's just a difficult path andyou've got to be willing to walk
that path.

Speaker 2 (24:24):
Have you ever had a moment when you almost gave up?

Speaker 1 (24:27):
Oh, I mean there's been so many moments where you
question it and I laugh becauseit's like all the friends that I
talked to that are artists wewere just having this discussion
the other day the amount oftimes that we go through that
emotion and say to ourselves,like I'm done, like I just don't

(24:49):
want to do this anymore, or youget frustrated because of
materials, or this thing doesn'twork out, or you've been
waiting so long for this.
You know sale or commission tocome through.
You're met with so manyobstacles on a daily basis that
it just becomes part of this, Idon't know part of your part of

(25:10):
your personality or experiencethrough.
You know the full range of ofof being an artist that you have
to have this thing that I don'tknow kind of counterbalances,
the, the, the highs, right,because if you don't have those
moments and you're notquestioning that and just going
through it, I don't think kindof counterbalances the highs,
right.
Because if you don't have thosemoments and you're not
questioning that and just goingthrough it, I don't think that
you're making a lot ofinteresting things.

(25:30):
You know what I mean.
If you're not having thatadversity, if you're not having
that pushback it's not I thinkthis is a really important part
of the conversation.

Speaker 2 (25:39):
You know, I asked that question because so often
we're siloed in our creativityand we don't realize that there
are others out there that areexperiencing almost giving up,
or you know, like you said, shit, I'm done with this.
So it's just it's.
You know, it's that moment whenpeople realize oh my God, I'm

(26:02):
not alone, everybody experiencesthat, and that's really a
valuable and important moment.

Speaker 1 (26:07):
And it's everybody right.
I don't think it's limited tothe person that's just starting,
or the Mark Bradford's of theworld, or what.
Everybody, at every singlelevel, has that experience, I
believe.

Speaker 2 (26:20):
I can say I've experienced it multiple times in
just what we're doing and whatwe're creating, and ours is not
art.
I've gone through the periodswhere I told Dwight, fuck it,
I'm done.

Speaker 1 (26:37):
And then the next day I'm back doing it again.
You've got to have the fireright, like that thing.
Whatever you're doing, whateveryou're passionate about, it's
got to be so you.

Speaker 2 (26:51):
You've gotta be so on fire for it to where you can
have that day and wake up thenext day and say, okay, I'm
going back, I'm going back to it.
Beautifully spoken, wow.

Speaker 3 (26:55):
You know, one thing that really stuck out to me
about how you were sharing theexperience of, of living through
all of those things, the highsand the lows is that there seems
to be a great amount of wisdomthat is experienced Like there's
not.
There's not any kind of a greatteaching that someone can can

(27:19):
hand to you.
There's no way that you canjust read it in a book or pick
up on some hard lessons bywatching others.
You know, as much as we mighttry, it sounds like you have had
to go through some intenseexperiences that touched many

(27:42):
aspects of your life.
I mean, you kind of hinted atit.
You mentioned that I got theimpression that there was a
marriage that didn't surviveyour transition.

Speaker 1 (27:53):
Yeah, more than one actually, and yeah, I can laugh
at that now.
It's not an easy thing to gothrough and it really taught me
a lesson, I'll tell you.
Now, it's a.
It's not an easy thing to gothrough and it really taught me
a lesson, I'll tell you.
I'll tell you a story thatthat's funny.
I walked into a gallery in 2006or seven when I first started
painting and the um, I stillknow the gallerist to this day.

(28:17):
Um, I walked in with who was mywife then, and she goes oh,
you're married.
And I was like, yeah, and shesaid that's strange.
And I thought, and she didn'telaborate on it, it was just
like you know, she just kind oflike walked off and it was like
I just it always stuck with meand I never understood why she
said that.
And, uh, and years later, whenI got a divorce, I was like, oh,

(28:37):
that's what she meant.
Um, because if you don't, Ididn't understand what it meant

(29:00):
to be an artist and what thatmeant for my life, and if you
were not with somebody thatunderstands what that creative
pursuit is and truly meant, so Icouldn't fully understand it
myself.
But going through that processwith somebody, um, you showed me
a lot about, I I guess, whatthat path looks like when you
walk it along with somebody thatyou know.
If they're not in that, in thatart industry or music or you

(29:23):
know anything creative, thenthey can't fully understand you,
right, and even when they do um, my, my second wife was, was
fully understandable.
You know she, she was ahairstylist, she was creative.
Um, she encouraged me to quitmy full-time job.
She was the one that held me tothe fire.
I did it.
We went through that.
She was with me for a lot ofyears in my, you know, being a

(29:47):
full-time artist.
So she really saw the ups anddowns and she knew what she was
getting into.
But at the end of the day itwas still too much, it's like,
because you know, a big part ofthe problem of I don't know I
wouldn't say it's a problem Abig part of the artist's
experience is, and you kind ofhave to live in this world where

(30:12):
you're by yourself a lot.
You're in the studio, thinkingcreatively, and even when you
leave the studio your mind kindof stays in there and I can be
sitting at dinner after I getout of the studio and I'm
sitting across from this personand we're having a conversation,
but you know she can tell bythe look in my eye that I'm not

(30:33):
really there, that I'm thinkingabout something else.
And it's just inherent to whowe are as creatives that we get
stuck in this creative loop,almost where you know especially
if you're in this period ofreally deep creation and
thinking and really giving allof yourself to that process, and

(30:57):
you just don't escape it.
You just don't click the lightoff.
It's 5 o'clock and I flip theswitch and I'm now out of that.
That just doesn't happen.

Speaker 2 (31:07):
It was like you had a mistress I had a mistress.

Speaker 1 (31:10):
Art is a mistress.
Art is a mistress.
Art is maybe the most dangerousmistress there is because you
can go off and you can have sexwith somebody or you can get
fulfilled emotionally orsomething on the outside, but it
always is going to.
What I've learned is it'salways going to repeat itself.
It's always going to besomewhat similar to every other
relationship that you've everhad in some way, in some

(31:33):
spectrum.
But art is never that.
Art is never the same.
Art is never because I don'tthink it's really separate from
yourself.
It really is you and there's nogetting away from yourself.

Speaker 2 (31:47):
I just wrote an article that will hit the
readers next week preciselyabout that that when we think
that it's all about our creativejourney, it's not.
It's about our life, becauseyou can't separate the two.

Speaker 1 (32:03):
No, and I think that a lot of people that's where a
lot of people get hung up.
And I think I did for myselffor a long time too that I was,
I was externalizing that and Iwas making things.
I think in the beginning, andmaybe for quite a while, I was
doing things, as you know, for aresult right, like if you

(32:25):
decide to go full-time, thenyou've got to support yourself
and then you've got to fill thegalleries with work that sells
and you've got to do things thatare financially responsible, I
guess.
And I think when you createfrom that space, then it somehow
does separate you from the work, and I think that's a slippery

(32:46):
slope because it starts to takeaway the meaning and it starts
to chip away at the specialnessof it.
And it wasn't really until Iwent through my divorce last
time, which is the show that Ihad at Ferrari Gallery last year
, last May.
That kind of explained thatprocess and that was maybe one

(33:08):
of the first times that Iallowed myself to be very
vulnerable in that space andmake work that was so personal
to me that I didn't care whetherit sold or not.
I didn't care.
And that's a scary place to betoo, because you've got to pay
the bills, and.
But I learned something fromthat process of being authentic
and true and really loving thework that you're creating,

(33:30):
because it it had such a fire inme last year while I created
that show that it made merealize that that's what this is
about.
That's what this creation isabout is about expressing
yourself and letting all of thatinternal stuff shine through in
the work and not just be thisreally pretty thing on the wall
that somebody wants to take homeand you know and show off to

(33:53):
their friends or whatever.
I'm not against that Like likeI I'm so fortunate and so
thankful that I've been able tomake a living as an artist and I
still find myself having to dothat.
I still have to balance makingwork that is saleable, that is
going to support this journey,but you can't let go of making

(34:14):
the work that is really personalfor you.

Speaker 2 (34:17):
Yeah, I just had this feeling that the personal stuff
would be the stuff that wouldbe most desirable, because your
soul is poured out into it.
We went to a walk this lastSaturday an art walk here in
Dallas and walked into anartist's studio and she had her
art.
I mean it was everywhere andthere was only one piece in the

(34:41):
whole room that stood out to me,one, and I asked her about it
and she goes oh, that's apersonal piece, that's something
that just was something deeplythat I was going through at the
time and she said I was reallyreluctant to even put it out and
let anybody see it because it'sso personal.
And I'm like thinking, okay,there's where your real art is,

(35:04):
right there.
You know, it's like the partthat you're afraid to put out.
There is the part that thecollectors are looking for.
They want to connect tosomething deeper than just
something pretty on the wall.
Yeah, they want something thatspeaks of something the artist
was going through that createdthat.

(35:28):
I mean that one piece.
Nothing in there even remotelylooked like that one piece.
I said would you sell thatBecause I'm eyeing it?
And she was like, oh, I don'tknow, I'm not through with it,
yet Not physically throughpainting.
She had finished it.
She wasn't through with theemotional part that was
connected to it, and I justwanted to say that's where you

(35:52):
need to go.
Everything in here needs to besomething that you poured as
much of your soul into as that.

Speaker 1 (36:00):
I hope you told her that, because that kind of
outside perspective and wisdomis something that artists need
to hear, because she's probablyscared to go there, she's
probably scared to be vulnerable, she's probably scared to touch
that part of herself and shedid, and now she's maybe even
reluctant to show it becauseit's still so deeply rooted in

(36:21):
her Right and I think that takesartists a long time to get to
that place, to be able toexpress not only in that, in
that way, privately, but also toput it out for people to see
and judge and diagnose and likeall of these, you know, these
things that make us feeluncomfortable.

Speaker 2 (36:39):
I would love to ask your opinion on something, your
take on this.
Now I have dabbled, I'vepainted a little bit, I did
photography for years.
I'm a creative, for sure.
I like to cook, I bake, I cando a lot of things.
Now I'm the jack of all tradesand not a master of probably any

(37:00):
of them.
I was a hairdresser, makeupartist for 40 years when I
closed my business and retired,so everything I've ever done has
been creative.
But I'm wondering I have thisfeeling as I watch artists bona
fide artists, people that makeart to sell that you can't just

(37:20):
put your art out there.
You have to put yourself outthere, because the art is an
extension of you.
And I see so many artists thatthey want to put their stuff out
there, but they want to hidebehind a wall over there and not
be seen.
And then they wonder whynobody's buying their art.

(37:41):
And this is my take and I wantto hear your take on it.
But my take is the artist isbuying you on some level, just
like the artists, not the artist, the collectors.
The collectors are buying youin some regard, just like my
clients were buying me in somepart when they came and sat in

(38:04):
my chair and let me do magic onthem, because anybody could have
done that, you know.
But they came because theywanted me and I'd love to hear
how you and where are you inthat Do you put yourself out
there as much as you put yourart out there?
Because this is a conversationthat just doesn't exist right

(38:24):
now.
I don't think.

Speaker 1 (38:26):
Yeah, and I think that's a great observation and
maybe one of the most importantparts of being an artist and
putting your work out into theworld.
Because, you are right, peopledo want to connect to who you
are, what your story is, what'sthe meaning, because a lot of
the times you put the work upand that's why I like to go to

(38:46):
openings and have openings andallow people to see the art but
then also have a chance to speakwith me, because maybe they
have questions around it andsome artists don't like to talk
about it.
I think Cy Twombly famouslysaid you know, people have the
audacity to ask me what thepainting means and he's like
I've said everything I need tosay, right, like it's already

(39:07):
out there, it's already on thecanvas, and I respect that.
I don't know if that's a shield, I don't know if that's
something that maybe artists useas a way to deflect from having
to be vulnerable.
But I've always enjoyed, becauseI was an art admirer before I

(39:29):
was an artist, right, so I gotto see lots of artist talks and
I got to really meet a lot ofreally interesting people and I
always loved that aspect of it.
So when I became a full-timeartist, then it was my
opportunity to kind of give thatexperience to other people and
I feel like that's maybe one ofthe only times that I don't know

(39:50):
.
I have a lot of fun creating,but if you don't get the
experience to talk to peopleabout it and to share it and to
share your story behind it, thenI think you're kind of missing
like half of it.
You know what I mean.
Like you're you're missing abig chunk of why you're doing
this thing why you're doing it,but also why they're buying it.
Yeah, yes, yeah Well, and a lotof times I don't even get to

(40:12):
tell that story right.
So I have galleries that areacross the U?
S and I send the paintings offafter I'm done they disappear
out into the world and I neverknow where they go.
So I don't get to have any ofthat, that interaction, and I
don't get to explain any of thatstuff.
And I think that's a really hardthing with abstract artists is
because we're not figurative,because we're not expressing

(40:34):
something so directly that hasthis meaning.
Like when you look at it andmaybe it's a landscape or a
photograph or something else,it's like that's what that thing
is.
Maybe there's some underlyingmeans that you have to unravel
out of that.
But from an abstractperspective, a lot of the times
people don't know what they'relooking at and they're just
they're just putting their owntwo cents of what they're
getting out of.

(40:54):
It makes them feel somethingwhen they walk up and stand in
front of it and they buy itbecause it gives them a feeling.
It may not be the feeling thatI had, but you know it's.

Speaker 2 (41:04):
we have the means to fix that.
Now you know, you can go onyour YouTube channel and and
punch a video on and talk aboutthe art that you're either
painting or have completedeither way, and what's coming up
for you and what it means foryou.
Or you could record a littlevideo sharing what you were

(41:25):
going through as you worked onthis piece and put a QR code in
that gallery that you ship itfar away to, where they just QR
code it and they see a littletwo-minute video that tells them
where they connect with.
There's so many ways that thiscould happen.
I don't have a marketingbackground at all, but as a
hairdresser, I had to get reallycreative in how to get myself

(41:47):
out there and get people to wantwhat I offered, because I
worked in a zip code that hadover 200 salons times the number
of hair cutters in each salonand so I had to figure out how
to be seen.
And artists are the same way howto connect with people, to let

(42:09):
them know that you're the personthat they needed to buy from or
needed to work with.

Speaker 1 (42:15):
Well, I think it's a double-edged sword right.
We're so lucky right now thatwe have that opportunity and
that we have all the differentsocial medias and all the
different ways that we canconnect with people.
It's better than it's ever been.
So I do encourage artists toalways utilize those channels,
because it's free, number one,and you get to put that out
there.
I, as I say that I'm not goodat that, I don't normally take

(42:40):
the time to.
I have friends that are so goodat like setting their cameras
up and videoing the wholeprocess and then editing it, and
then blah, blah, blah.
I'm like it's enough for mejust to get in the studio and
create the thing right Now thatI have to do all this other
stuff and all of this, you know,behind the scenes, um but what?

Speaker 2 (42:59):
what have you simplified and just did little,
two or three minutes shorts,that you didn't do any editing
to?

Speaker 1 (43:06):
Yeah, I know I'm getting, I'm getting a lot of
feedback from friends and peopleand everything.
You should just do this right,like take advantage of it.
So I'm I'm slowly stepping intothat, but I think that's why I
took on galleries, because, um,not only is there this like
prestige around galleries,because that gets you into
museums or like whatever, itgets you exposed to the broader,

(43:28):
the bigger collectors, uh, butit also takes away the need for
you to go out and push that andto be seen and it kind of gets
taken care of for you in thatsetting.
And I think that that's a bigreason why I went that route was
because I can just create and Ican just give it to them and
then they can do it.
That's not always as effectiveanymore as probably going out

(43:53):
and doing some of that on yourown.

Speaker 2 (43:54):
So and I think you could create a hybrid.
You know, you could be in agallery, somewhere where they're
handling all that, and youcould still have a little QR
code with a video that clearlyconnected you to your your
perspective.
Collector.

Speaker 3 (44:11):
Yeah, I think another big piece of the art, of, uh,
of the art that you create.
You know, you, you mentionedbefore that you you don't deal
with things that are figurative.
It's something that is, when Iexperience one of your pieces,
it does a great deal for me inthat I can, I'm looking at a

(44:35):
reflection of sorts, whichthere's some irony there,
because you're you're workingwith a medium that is naturally
reflective, but I can see a true, um, a true aspect of myself
that is not otherwise captured.
And when I experience yourpieces, it's a bit of a

(44:59):
conversation and it's a completesensory uh experience because
my, my proprioception issuddenly challenged.
I I have had the experience ofviewing some of your paintings
and because of the experience ofhaving my depth perception

(45:20):
challenged, I am thrown offbalance.
Yeah, that's something tobehold and I think you know,
maybe that's the experience thatpeople have.
Being with one of your works isprobably something else that
should be captured and shared,Because, I'm telling you, just

(45:43):
seeing the work leaves a lot onthe table.
There's so many things thatwill not come from just seeing
you in the studio that will notcome from just seeing you in the
studio.

Speaker 1 (45:58):
Yeah, I appreciate that, because I don't often get
that perspective because I seethe work differently, right,
like I'm with it every singleday, and it's been two decades
now.
So you lose that kind ofperspective that other people
get, especially the first timethat they witness it.
So I'm always so appreciativeto like get brought back to that
point of seeing it throughfresh eyes.
Um, I think what a lot ofpeople don't.

(46:18):
They get stuck on thisdimensional movement and they
get like what I call op art,right Like from the seventies,
the op optical art, meaning theillusion of art.
Um, that people put into thatand I fall into that category
somewhat, and but for me ittakes it a step further from

(46:39):
reflectivity and this, this kindof like dimensional movement.
But what people don't reallyunderstand, because they don't
get to see the process of itgetting made, is I had this,
this really powerful tool in myhand that I'm using, that can
take your finger off in a splitsecond and it's dangerous and
it's loud and it's like and I'mand I'm utilizing it in such a
way because of the way thatwe've developed certain aspects

(47:00):
of the tool that makes me.
It allows me to use it like ascalpel, almost right, like very
finely, or like a paintbrush,like a paintbrush.

Speaker 2 (47:11):
I mean, there's literally strokes.
You know it's like you'repainting with something that's
scratching.
It's hard to describe, it hasan engraving type quality to it.

Speaker 1 (47:23):
Yes, and what people don't realize, because they
don't see it, is that everysingle line that's in that
painting it's placed at, it'splaced very precisely because
the way that it works is anoverhead light shines on a piece
of metal and when I score thatpiece, that that piece of metal,
in such a way it eitherreflects or it absorbs light.

(47:46):
Okay, if you can wrap your headaround that like oh absolutely.
I make the stroke on there andeither shines light back at me
or it absorbs it, and thatdepends on the angle at which I
placed that.

Speaker 2 (47:57):
So, and you've got that angle down, Now you know
exactly how to turn, hold thattool, to cut that metal in a
manner where you, you decide,and it's probably even a
continuum.
It's not just reflect or it'severything in between.
So there's this subtle nuance.

Speaker 1 (48:16):
So you can't get stuck on.
And here's where the reallydifficult thing is is you can't
get stuck on like walking up toit and being so careful, right,
because then it becomes itdoesn't have any feeling to it
because it becomes kind ofscientific and almost like
robotic, right.
So you've got to find thisbalance between knowing the

(48:38):
angle, knowing the, the, howhard or soft to push on it,
where to leave a reflectivepoint and then an absorbing
point, because that gives youthe dimensionality right Like
the, the, the blackness or theshining, the dimensionality
right Like the blackness or theshining.
And so having to do that insuch a way that because when I

(48:59):
create I listen to music, right,so I'm almost like a musician
in a way that is, listening tothe music that's going on and
I'm responding to that and I'mputting my you know, like if I
was a jazz player and I wasputting my solo into that mix,
it's capturing this movementthat is very fluid and it's very

(49:19):
to me, it's very musical andthat's a way for me to put on
canvas.
It's almost like freeze framingmy action into the piece of
metal, right.
So I put those marks on there,I put that, that configuration
together it creates acomposition and basically it is

(49:41):
a a way to kind of stamp that ofthis, of this record that I
just listened to and myinvolvement within that, and it
just kind of freezes it.
But at the same time and I knowthat you got something to say
when you witness that, and youwitness that movement and you
experience that, and you feelthat it is literally capturing

(50:01):
my essence onto the face of thepanel and it is left there for
you to now experience andinterpret however you want to.

(50:27):
Eric, did those strokes that youmake?
Did they flow with?
The pay?
Attention is, if you're notwhat I call in the flow state
and you're too focused oncreating or you're not focused
enough on creating, there's abalance in between that Right.

(50:48):
And if you're not in that flowstate and really free with all
of that'm really in flow statewith and I'm everything comes
together right as it should, youwitness whatever that kind of
like divine intervention is like.
That, for me, is where themagic is.
Is I get done and I'm like Ialmost wasn't present for it.
I almost stepped outside ofmyself and let everything flow

(51:09):
through the way that it neededto, and then that's what is done
.

Speaker 2 (51:13):
That's what gets captured way that it needed to,
and then that's what is done,that's what gets captured.
I love that you spoke of beingconnected to source, because I
personally believe that art andcreativity, in all ways is, it
is an element of spirituality.
I mean, you can't really it'slike trying to separate, you

(51:35):
know, the creativity from yoursoul.
They're one in the same.
Spirituality is just, it'scoming.
I always say I'm not thecreator, I'm the messenger.
It's not coming from me, it'scoming through me.

Speaker 1 (51:49):
We're a vessel, right , like we're a vessel, it's kind
of arrogant to think that it'sfunny.
I had this conversation with mymentor and he doesn't really
feel this way.
But I feel like we are vesselsand we allow things to come
through and it's kind ofarrogant in a way to think that
it's coming all for me, it's allmy genius, it's all you know,

(52:09):
and, and I don't know, maybe Ithought that way in the very
beginning, like, oh, look, lookwhat I'm doing.
But it wasn't until I startedto kind of experience that and
step outside of myself and letthat flow through, where you're
like, oh, this is bigger than me, this is bigger than what my
ego is, or you know, I just haveto step out of the, I have to
connect, step out of the way,see that magic happen.

(52:30):
And then you start tounderstand that it's not just
about yourself.

Speaker 2 (52:34):
I mean, you're still a genius at being the conduit,
though.

Speaker 1 (52:38):
Yeah, I think that's.
That's like the hard balanceright Like it's.
It's kind of like creating thework, it's being present enough
to control but then also beingfree enough to let that come in
the way that it needs to, andthose things join together and
it's like an explosion and youknow after amount of time, after
however many years, that you dothis thing when that's taking

(53:05):
place Because I certainly makeit work now where I know that
I'm not in that zone and itshows and then I have to step
back and I'm like, okay, youdidn't do the things that you
needed to do in order to connectin that way, and I've gotten
better with over the years ontrying to kind of navigate that
and hone that and know when theright time is.
A lot of people like you got toget in the studio every day and
you got to make work and that'sfor me.
I understand that, that youknow that idea, but for me I

(53:29):
know if I step into the studioon a day that I'm off mentally
or, you know, spiritually or anyof these other things, maybe
even physically, I know that I'mnot going to get the connection
and the magic that I need inorder to make the work that I
want, and so that for me, islike I give myself grace and
permission to not enter thestudio if I don't feel it.

Speaker 2 (53:52):
Yeah, I think that grace and permission is
important.
I do have another perspectivethat I'd like to share with you,
if you're open.
I woke up this morning.
I've got a little bit of ahealth condition and I woke up
this morning and I had a reallyrough night.
Last night I have had someanxiety.

(54:16):
I didn't feel good at all.
I told Dwight I don't know if Ican be present to do the
interview, not interview theconversation with Eric.
He was prepared to talk to youwithout me minute.

(54:41):
I chose to come and what I'mfinding is I didn't force myself
to do anything, I just showedup and in the showing up, in
spite of everything that wasgoing on that I thought would
prevent me from being to befully present, it has come
through me because I just saidyou know, I'm just going to suit
up and show up and let itunfold, and I didn't force
myself.
But I did say you know, I'mjust going to see what happens

(55:06):
and I feel, in just this hour ofconversation, I feel better
than I have in the last 12 hours.

Speaker 1 (55:14):
I love that and I appreciate you being vulnerable
to that, and I can certainlyunderstand the health issue and
how hard it is to overcome thatand to step in and actually show
up and go through that.
And you are right, because Idon't want to make it sound like
not showing up is the answer,because sometimes it's exactly

(55:35):
what you need to do when youdon't feel like it in order to
shift your energy or your youknow, your mindset or whatever
to get out of whatever you're in.
And I suffer.
So I'm a disabled vet.
I suffer from.
I had back surgery in 2019.
They think that I might need itagain, but I have a disc issue
in my lower back that issometimes debilitating and it's

(55:59):
really hard to do what I dobecause it's so physical, and so
I battled that for a reallylong time and that has a great
deal of impact on how we show upas people and how we show up as
, like, creatives right.

Speaker 2 (56:14):
Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (56:16):
So I really feel that in some days, maybe more often
than not, I do have to forcemyself physically.
That's why I kind of like pauseon the physical side, Cause I'm
like I always have a feeling oflike, oh I could not go do this
today and save my body somewear and tear, Right.
But um, but, you're right, Ithink the magic kind of shows up
sometimes when you don't feelprepared or ready, and then you

(56:39):
step into it and you getsomething unexpected out of it.

Speaker 2 (56:41):
So well, and when the magic shows up specifically
right now in this conversationwith you, all the things that
were plaguing me and it all, itall went away.
Yeah, you know that.
Wonderful, and I don't.
I suspect that I'm going tofeel better for the rest of the
day than I did before I came onthe call.
I'm not saying it's going tofix everything, but I I'm I'm

(57:06):
pretty sure I'm going to feelbetter for the rest of the day
than I did before I came on thecall.

Speaker 1 (57:10):
And what does that mean?
Right yeah.

Speaker 3 (57:13):
What is that?
It speaks to the power ofcommunity.
I mean, here we are, we're,we're doing this thing and it's
because we have a genuineinterest to focus.
We're, we're very much in tuneand caring about each other.
And, um, I, I know that thecondition that Maddox has it is

(57:38):
serious, and it's one of thosethings where there are days when
we alter our plans because wejust need to be careful, and I'm
so glad that just sitting downfor this conversation turned out
to be just the medicine that heneeded to get him in a better

(58:02):
state.

Speaker 2 (58:04):
Well, I was having a hard time missing it.
You know, from the night we metyou at that gallery, I just
when we meet, we meet peoplethat we just I just know it's
going to be an amazingconversation and I live for that
, you know, I just live for that, and so I'm glad I pushed
myself a little bit.
I didn't force, but I did nudgeand push myself.

(58:26):
We're kind of running a littlebit long.
And I have one more questionthat I really want to ask, and
maybe Dwight has more too.
But you, is there anything thatyou've maybe felt throughout

(58:58):
that, something that's beenpresent, that you've never said
out loud?

Speaker 1 (59:07):
So a feeling that I've had through being an artist
.
Is there anything that I havenot expressed?
Is there anything that I havenot expressed Maybe not publicly

(59:32):
, privately?
I've had some conversationswith friends around.
I think something specificmaybe is.
I had this with Jim Ferrari,actually right from Ferrari
Gallery.
We had this conversation in hisstudio, I think it was last year
, and we got on the topic offamily and, you know, having a
family specifically and and asyou know, you know I've gone
through these divorces and Ihaven't been successful in that
area of my life and I've beensuccessful in most areas of my
life and not that one.
And there's been I don't know,there's been some resentment

(59:52):
around that, I think, with art,because I'm like, oh, being a
creative or the art is the thingthat you know, that kind of
sabotage those relationships andit's because I'm this way and
and so I held some resentmentmaybe around art and it's been
something that I've workedthrough for the past couple of
years and it's prevented me fromalso maybe having kids, because

(01:00:15):
I know how difficult it is tonot only survive as an artist
but to have enough time andenergy and all of these other
things that go into havingchildren and a family, and so I
think something that I haven'treally talked about publicly is
just that feeling of selfishnessaround being an artist and

(01:00:40):
admitting that to myself,because I always tried to kind
of like ride that line and Ijust wasn't very good at it, and
I don't think that we giveourselves permission, because we
get taught like you grow up,you get a job, you have a family
, you retire and then you dieright, like that's kind of the
way that at least I was broughtup, and so when I saw that

(01:01:03):
structure and then I strayedfrom that structure, I felt
almost guilty.
And then me trying to forcesomething to work because I
thought I had to was, uh, wassomething that I have struggled
with, that I still struggle with, and, um, there's a certain
level of kind of like maybeloneliness or emptiness around

(01:01:25):
not having that.
Um, but my talk with jimbecause you know he doesn't have
kids either and he saidsomething to me that I'll never
forget.
He said it wasn't really on myheart to have children and that
really hit me in such a way thatI had to look internally and

(01:01:47):
say, okay, is that really on myheart?
Is that something that I reallywant, or is it something that I
think that I want and I'vereally been debating?

Speaker 2 (01:01:57):
that I think that you're supposed to want.

Speaker 1 (01:02:00):
That I'm supposed to want, yeah, that I give myself
permission not to do thosethings.
And I have given myselfpermission to not do a lot of
things that I was supposed to do, but this one, for whatever
reason, was just reallydifficult for me to swallow,
whether that's biological orjust from a societal standpoint.

(01:02:21):
But, yeah, I think that'ssomething that balance between
creativity and, I guess,normalcy, if you will, because
it seems to be pretty normal forpeople just to go down this
path, but I'm just not one ofthose people, and that has been
something that I've kind ofrecently allowed myself to not

(01:02:41):
only acknowledge but come toterms with and say I'm sure
there's a lot of people thatfeel that way.
You know, there's a lot ofpeople that maybe struggle with
that, that that that doesn't gettalked about, um, and so, yeah,
if there's anything that Ihaven't really discussed before,
is just my, my struggle with,uh, with selfishness and as it

(01:03:03):
relates to creativity and andwhat that means.

Speaker 2 (01:03:06):
You know, I don't think it's selfish.
Yeah, I think art makes a hugefrigging difference in our world
.
You put stuff out there thatchange people's lives in many
ways, energetically, spiritually, in many ways, and I don't
think it's selfish even a littlebit.

Speaker 1 (01:03:27):
Yeah, I appreciate that.
I think a lot of creativesunderstand that it's everybody
else that doesn't understand it.
Right, Like it's the peoplethat.

Speaker 2 (01:03:35):
And that's on them yeah that's on on them.

Speaker 3 (01:03:37):
That's what I had to get to I'm reminded as, as
you're, you're sharing that,that feeling of of not being
able to to have children tofollow the script of a
conversation that we hadrecently with someone that has
made a real contribution to therestaurant scene here in Dallas,

(01:04:02):
and at one point he describedhow he has lots of restaurant
children, thousands ofrestaurant children, and it's
because of the way that he haspoured himself into his passion
and been able to see realdifferences in people's lives

(01:04:24):
and made a real difference.
And that's where he gets thatfulfillment.
And I think that we need toallow for there to be permission
for us to see what it is thatwe're doing, to proliferate in a
way that, even though it maynot look like the template that
we're handed, that it's honestfor who we are.

Speaker 2 (01:04:50):
Exactly, family is not always biological.
That's true, you know, you canhave as many kids as you want.
You can have as much family.
I have a much biggernon-biological family than I do
a biological family, and I'mmuch in many ways closer to my

(01:05:10):
non-biological family, my familyof choice, as we call it.

Speaker 1 (01:05:16):
Yes, your community, right, Like which is what you
guys talk about on this podcast,which is community and how
important that is.
And I think as artists, we'reoften isolated and it's
important to maintain some levelof like, community, and it's
important to have thatnon-biological family that you
can not only lean on but talk toand communicate with.

(01:05:38):
And, um, and I think I'm in themiddle of all of that process,
so it's taking me time to kindof get some distance to actually
see that clearly, um, and I'm,and I'm really taking a lot of
steps to to feel, uh,comfortable with that decision
and and also letting myself beokay with it.
And I think, by the time thatall of this is over and you have

(01:05:58):
time to look back and you seethat you lived authentically in
the way that you truly wanted tolive, that's when you, you, you
gain that perspective of, okay,you know, I, I did it correctly
because it was who I was.

Speaker 2 (01:06:14):
Well, and you were called to do this.
It's just like the creativityflows through you, so does the
choice to be a creative.
I mean you could have chosensomething else, but you were
called.
You got a calling to be acreative and you couldn't do
anything else but that if youwere going to be true to self

(01:06:34):
and be happy and fulfilled.

Speaker 1 (01:06:36):
Yeah, I tried to fight it, you know, I tried to
have the nine to fives, I triedto have the careers I had, I
tried to do, you know, all ofthe different things, to kind of
fit in and be, you know, normal, and that that just didn't, it
just never fit Right.
So, and once I stepped out ofthat and I really became the
person, that who I wanted to be,and I was able to express

(01:06:58):
authentically, um, I became, Ithink, deep down, much happier,
even though I was battling allof these other things externally
, because, you know, they don'tnot everybody wants you to live
that way, right, they kind ofwant you to fit into their molds
.
And and once I let go of someof that, then it's like, oh, I
can listen to myself.

Speaker 2 (01:07:20):
And with you being truly happy.
There's a ripple effect there.
Every human being that you comein contact with, whether it's
via your art or any other way,in that happiness that ripples
out to them and then out to thepeople that they have contact
with.

Speaker 1 (01:07:38):
I believe that and I've seen that over the years
and that's what kind of keeps, Ithink, a lot of artists going
is that they see that they havean impact and not that we can
even help but create.
But when it reaches otherpeople and we get to share that,
you see that it really doesmake a difference.
And that's when you walk awayand say, okay, like maybe this

(01:07:58):
is a bigger, bigger, this isbigger than myself.
And if I continue down thisroad and I have had that
experience that I've actuallyimpacted people in some ways
where they have quit their jobsand gone on and created their
own businesses or become artistsor done whatever it is that
their passion is, and they'vecome back later on and said that
one conversation really changedmy life.

(01:08:19):
And this is what I'm doing nowand to have that feedback and
get to experience that I losesight of it sometimes and when I
see that I actually made adifference, then it makes it
worth it.

Speaker 2 (01:08:33):
Well, and we don't necessarily need to buy a piece
of your art to be impacted by it.
We saw that guitar one time andwe're still talking about it.
It definitely impacted us.

Speaker 3 (01:08:44):
Well, that's all I can hope for that's all I can
hope for well, as maddoxmentioned earlier, we we are
running a little long and it'sabout that time that we draw
this to a close, and we like todo that by just asking some
lighthearted rapid firequestions.

(01:09:06):
Okay, yeah, all right.
So the first rapid firequestion is three words that
describe your creative process.

Speaker 1 (01:09:22):
I would say passion, connection and vulnerability
Beautiful.

Speaker 3 (01:09:35):
What's a dream collaboration?
Any artists, dead or alive, wow?

Speaker 1 (01:09:42):
Wow, you know, what's funny is I got to I've already
got to do that collaborationwith my mentor and I got that
true experience and that issomething that, um, I'm just
unbelievably grateful for.
But if I had to be somebodyoutside of that that I've never
met, um, my favorite artist isMark Bradford and, uh, I think I

(01:10:06):
would love to stand with him inhis giant studio working on a
giant painting and just be partof that process.
Yeah, I think that'd be my one.

Speaker 2 (01:10:17):
Have you ever considered like throwing it out
there on the table and seeingwhat happens?

Speaker 1 (01:10:21):
No, what's funny is I throw a lot of things on the
table and so many things havecome true, so maybe I should
reach out to Mark after this andbe like hey next time.
I'm in LA.
What have you got?

Speaker 2 (01:10:31):
to lose.

Speaker 3 (01:10:32):
What have I got to lose?

Speaker 1 (01:10:33):
And I've done literally has changed my life,
which is why I told you I wrotethat letter and I threw that out
at midnight and I neverexpected a response to my mentor
.
And literally that one action,that one thing that I did, I
didn't understand at the time.
And now, if I look back at it,if I didn't do that one thing
that night, none of thistrajectory would have ever

(01:10:54):
happened.
And I, if I look back at it, ifI didn't do that one thing that
night, none of this trajectorywould have ever happened and I
probably wouldn't be having thisconversation with you.
So if I can say this on thepodcast, if there's artists
listening, like, do that onething that you don't want to do
or you don't think you should do, or you think it's too much of
a shot in the dark.
If you do it and you do itenough times I just got really

(01:11:14):
lucky on my first one If you doit, I swear your life is going
to change.

Speaker 2 (01:11:20):
Yeah, we've all heard the story about how many people
that uh the the Kentucky friedchicken guy had to talk to
before somebody finally boughthis chicken recipe.
Yeah, and look how that endedbought his chicken recipe you
know and look how that ended.

Speaker 3 (01:11:45):
My last rapid fire question what's the most
unexpected?

Speaker 1 (01:11:51):
place you've found.
Inspiration, heartbreak, Ithink that was the most uh, you
know, and I and I really hadthis, um, this kind of epiphany.
You know, not that I've notexperienced that before, but you
know, when I went through this,when I created this last show
for Ferrari and I and I puteverything of myself into it um,

(01:12:13):
I was left at kind of like,when it all happened, I, it was
just so devastating and like Ididn't know how I was going to
continue or what to do, ornothing seemed meaningful
anymore.
And I think that that's when Iallowed myself to just kind of
go to the very bottom of likethe ocean and sit on the floor

(01:12:33):
right, very bottom of like theocean, and sit on the floor
right, sit there and just reallyfeel everything at my lowest
point and let that kind of likeshower over me and not run from
it and not try to fill it withsomething that's going to make
me feel better, but really toallow myself to feel all of the
different emotions.

(01:12:54):
And when I did that it took alittle bit of time, but when I
was able to come back up to thesurface and actually start
creating and actually startedputting myself into it, I
realized how important that thatkind of complete destruction
was and what I was able to pullout of that.
And when I finished that show,which I was doing things all the

(01:13:16):
way up to like the week before,and I was like I really want to
do this thing, I had this onepiece, these, these little four
pieces that I um, that I madethat were I don't know if you
saw them in the show, but theywere like these glass, broken
glass pieces, and I had myphotos behind it and I encased
it in these acrylic like blocks,basically.

(01:13:37):
Well, anyways, I had made somepieces like that and they just
weren't coming out well.
And I was talking to Debra atFerrari Gallery about it and she
was like, well, you know,you've got a lot of work, you
don't have to, don't feel likeyou have to do this.
And I was like I am determined,this is like the last bit of
this feeling that I need to putout there.

(01:13:57):
And when I finished them and Igot them into the show and I was
able to stand back and look atthe show in its entirety and all
the different mediums and allthe different very personal,
meaningful things, all of asudden, you know, I saw myself
sitting on that ocean floor andI tied all that together and I
said look what heartbreak canactually do for you.

(01:14:19):
And so don't run from theemotions that you really don't
want to look at and you don'twant to feel, because that can
be really the greatest rewardthat you'll ever have.
That you'll ever have and Ithink that's part of this life
process is to experience, as ahuman, the full range of things,

(01:14:41):
and we don't want to go throughthem, but I think that's what
gives us our lives meaning andinterest and that's what will
produce the greatest work thatyou'll ever make.

Speaker 2 (01:14:47):
Oh, I fully agree.
And you have just dropped ahuge wisdom bomb, just dropped a
huge wisdom bomb.
Thanks, I mean for the listener.
I just really encourage you tolike punch the you know repeat
button, roll it back.
You know two minutes, threeminutes and listen to that again
.
That was awesome.

Speaker 1 (01:15:09):
Thank you.
Yeah, you guys, let me sharethat and share all of this today
.
It's really meaningful for me,so I do appreciate it.

Speaker 2 (01:15:17):
This.
This has honestly, eric, thisconversation has exceeded my
expectations.

Speaker 1 (01:15:24):
I'm so happy about that when we, when we take the,
take the risks and put it allout there right.
I'm just thankful that you guysare doing this and connecting
people and allowing people totell their stories.
It means a lot.

Speaker 2 (01:15:36):
Well, well, we're really grateful for you being
part of it yes, absolutely itwas going to be great.

Speaker 1 (01:15:41):
I knew it'd take a long time, but I knew it was
going to be great yep us too.