July 14, 2025 • 68 mins
What happens when we stop running from our pain and instead race toward it with open arms? In this soul-stirring conversation with artist Mark Russell Jones, we discover how embracing our deepest wounds can transform not just our art, but our very humanity.
Mark's journey into authentic artistic expression wasn’t linear. Coming from a working-class background where art was relegated to "hobby status," he initially pursued more practical creative paths. It wasn’t until becoming a father that he made the pivotal decision to fully embrace his identity as a painter – realizing he couldn’t teach his child to pursue their dreams if he wasn’t pursuing his own. This moment of clarity, coupled with profound personal losses including his father's death and his daughter's stroke, formed the alchemical foundation of his creative practice.
"The tragedy is the beauty in my work," Mark confesses, revealing how facing grief head-on rather than compartmentalizing it has deepened his artistic expression. This philosophy of "running toward" difficult experiences instead of avoiding them has become central to his approach. Through vulnerability and openness, he's discovered that creativity isn’t something he generates, but rather something that flows through him when he becomes a willing vessel.
Our conversation ventures beyond technique into the spiritual dimensions of creativity – how becoming authentic opens channels to what Mark calls "the divine." We explore the dangers of overthinking and the wisdom in Leonardo da Vinci’s observation that "the supreme misfortune is when theory outstrips performance." Mark reminds us that ultimately, creativity is performance – the doing rather than the theorizing about doing.
Whether you’re a seasoned creator struggling with authenticity or someone just beginning to honor your creative impulses, Mark’s wisdom will inspire you to embrace vulnerability as the pathway to extraordinary expression. Listen now and discover why the thread of love may be the most powerful creative force we have.
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Mark Russell Jones Art
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
so the supreme misfortune is when theory
outstrips performance yeah wellsaid.
Yes, creativity is theperformance.
Acting on it, that's yourperformance.
You can theorize all day long,we can.
We can formalize theories toher till we're not here anymore.
(00:31):
And what will that leave uswith?
A bunch of theories but if wedo, if we perform, we have
results.
Those results lead to more andmore performances, more, more,
more.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Hello, this is Maddox and Dwight.
You guessed it.
It's another episode of For theLove of Creatives, and today
our guest is Mark Russell-Jones.
Welcome, mark, how you doing.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
Thank you guys, thank you Dwight, thank you Maddox.
So I guess I would have to sayfirst and foremost that I am an
artist.
I live that life which isall-en encompassing, to the
extent that I make work, and soeverything that I live going out
(01:33):
and about traveling and seeingthe world this kind of filtered
through the idea that I'm goingto make something from the
result of that experience.
It's been not that easy fromthe get gogo.
You know, as a child I wasalways drawing and drawing and I
thought it was just part of whoI was.
My dad was a farmer.
I walked the land.
I was always kind of noticingthings and looking and
(01:55):
transcribing pictures fromencyclopedias back in the day
and that's how I kind of startedformulating.
You know that I was day andthat's how I kind of started
formulating.
You know that I was, that Imade things, I drew and painted.
Long story short, I just Iended up going to art school,
finally saying yes to it, givingmyself permission to say that
I'm a painter.
I spent a summer in Madrid andwas going to look at Velazquez
(02:18):
paintings at the Prado and Ijust finally realized I said,
you know, in my heart of hearts,I just said, I'm a painter and
I don't think I can really denythat anymore.
So I went back to art schooland finished a degree in
painting and from that moment onthat's kind of what I've been
up to trying to speak throughpainting, if you will.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
So you used the word finally.
I finally went to art school,and it was your second time
around.
You'd already been to school,so how big a span of time was in
between that.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
So, coming from working class, it's always with
me.
So the idea that you work for aliving and that art somehow got
relegated outside of that.
It got put outside as a hobby,as not a life, not a way to live
from.
So I was always, it was justembedded into my consciousness
(03:16):
that that's kind of what I had,to keep it to the side.
So by me trying to challengemyself and live the antithesis
of that, trying to come to termswith, you know I giving myself
permission to do that, I finallydid by that summer in Madrid.
So what I did before that wasokay, I'll do graphic design.
Okay, I'll do somethingcreative, which is which I love,
(03:40):
and actually those things thatI actually entered into with the
design elements and compositionand so all the things I kind of
laid the groundwork for havemade me a far better artist
skill wise.
So in that regard, it wasn'tever wasted.
It was just about me sayingtaking that toolbox that I have
grown and added to as I wentthrough life and said yes, so I
(04:03):
basically I got married and hada child who was two months old
and I went to art school.
So when I became a father Idecided that if I'm going to
teach my child to live theirdreams.
I better be pursuing my own.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
You know, I think there's certain milestones in
our lives that do exactly that.
It can be a birth, it can be adeath.
Do exactly that.
It can be a birth, it can be adeath.
And I've told this before, butfor many years I said one of
these days I'm going to takepainting lessons.
And when my father died, I saidtoday is that day.
I had that slap of mortality inthe face, realizing I wasn't
(04:40):
going to live forever.
And I can see.
I loved the way you stated.
You know you wanted to modelsomething to that child.
Yes, and you wanted to model itfrom the very beginning.
And that's so powerful, thankyou.
What a gift to that child.
Oh, my gosh.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Well, to grow up with 100% of not knowing anything
other than it's okay to be, it'spretty powerful Because you
don't.
There's a lot of baggage that'sleft at the baggage claim.
You don't have to go claim it,you're free, and so I mean, but
that's a really hard thing to do, because I'm the first one to
(05:22):
say that I go like this you know, I have security, stability,
there's all these issues with it, and when you break it down to
essence and I've said thisbefore where the, the courageous
act of being a creative makingis so bold and I don't think
(05:43):
people realize how much couragethat does take, because we live
in a world that's still in spiteof the need for it and
surrounding themselves with itand purchasing it and buying it
and all of that we still areleft kind of outside of that.
The community of the ones whoacquire it.
It's a.
It's a.
It's very hard and but I thinkwhen you continue on and you
(06:07):
keep going, you find that youcan.
You can have it all in thesense of being who you truly
were meant to be, regardless ofthe outcome.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
I love that.
I love that.
That's beautiful man.
My head is just really like I'mpondering what you just said.
Wow.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
It's.
I mean, I think, and I wastalking to another artist, eric,
who you guys had, eric EricBreisch, yeah, and I, I was
talking to him, artist Eric, whoyou guys had, eric Eric Breisch
, yeah, eric.
Breisch and I was talking to himabout it.
I mean he alluded to it in theartist talk that we had at the
opening and it's a big kind of ahow can I say it?
(07:00):
Well, so, authenticity correct.
So being authentic, genuine,having integrity.
So when one begins the plight ofmaking and deciding that
they're going to pursue this, Ithink the greatest challenge
really is the courage to do itin the first place, yes, but
(07:22):
then after that to stay thecourse, which means can you stay
the course where the compromiseof who you are, you don't, you
refuse to, not, you refuse tonot make that compromise Meaning
I know that this will get methis and I know if I do this,
I'll get that.
And if I check, check, check,right, and there are there's
(07:45):
maps, you can follow them tofame, fortune, getting
recognized.
There's things that you can doand what I've really tried to do
and I've adhered to it to thisday, and it's a much more
difficult road is to make workthat comes to me, through me and
(08:08):
through my own thoughts andprocesses and living and doing,
and I don't go outside of thatexcept in the, in the pursuit of
knowing art history well enoughto honor it and being the
lineage of it and following that, but never to try to pluck
myself out of obscurity intosomething that I'm not in order
(08:30):
to be recognized.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
So I don't believe in that Well, you may be saying
something that we heard fromanother artist that we just
recently had a conversation with.
She made the comment that sheonly makes art that she wants to
make Only Period, like shedoesn't do the gee, is this
(08:53):
going to sell?
Do I need to make somethingthat's going to sell?
Do I need to make somethingthat I know is commercial?
She said I make art that I amdrawn to make period, with no
regard to whether it's going tosell or not.
And you know, I said and doesit sell?
And she said yes, and I saidGod, every artist needs to hear
(09:13):
that.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
Right.
So there is a tradeoff bystaying that course of being
authentic in your work, and itmay take a long time.
I mean, one of my favoriteartists right now is 91 years
old, frank bowling.
He's an african-americangentleman, just beautiful work,
(09:37):
um, he's been at it for a longtime and he has a solo show in
paris and his acclaim has beenongoing for, you know, 20 plus
years, but he didn't it's.
It's something that's unfoldingas he lives his life and it's
happening to him and therecognition is coming from, but
it is coming from a place of hisown authenticity.
So that's what we're after.
(09:59):
The recognition comes from aplace that is genuine.
That you're not.
You didn't falsify yourself toclaim it.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
I think that is so powerful because I think we miss
the mark when we make what wethink we'll sell.
Something that's commercial ormainstream.
We've sold our souls to thedevil in that moment stream.
We've sold our souls to thedevil in that moment.
And I'm not particularlysomebody that actually I'm using
(10:29):
that just in tongue-in-cheekbecause I'm not somebody that
necessarily really buys into theconcept of devil, but I I do
think that we, we somehow all ofthe arts, for that matter,
there is a level of in order to,because it's so difficult.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
I mean, that's the challenge we face, right, making
something and then have youknow, can you live from that?
And that's, I think, theapproach has to be that maybe
it's not about living from it,that living from it ends up
being the consequence of havingthe courage to do it, and if it
happens, beautiful.
And if it doesn't, usually youremain true to yourself
(11:06):
regardless of that.
And that's really hard, becauseI mentioned security, stability
, fame, fortune record, you know, all of those things put in,
put into the pot, right, andyou're, we're all vying for some
of that because we're, we wereborn into this world.
We have, there's, a mandatethat requires us that we live
from it.
We have no choice and it's aplight because there's so much
(11:30):
conditioning in societalevolution that requires us to
make these decisions that we'renot equipped to make really
until much later.
But it's put onto us so earlyin life, it's pounded into us
that you have to do this and youdo this, and if you do that,
you get that and you'll havethat, and you know, and you're
just an artist who wants to makethings.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
I've recently been studying the be do have versus
do have be.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
It's hard for me to spit that out yeah, we do have
yeah but it's a fascinatingconcept and I think on on some
level, I'm hearing you echo,echo some of that I think and
this is this is going to beemotional for me to share, but I
think what happened for me as Imentioned, my daughter being
(12:27):
born that was the impetus to sayyes to this journey.
But then the journey, if youwill, stagnated, making a large
amount of money in somethingelse.
You know journey life takingyou in different directions,
right, holding on to the thing,this thing of art loss.
You know journey life takingyou in different directions,
right, hey, holding on to thething that, this thing of art
(12:50):
and then feeling like it'sslipping away from you.
Then you take a studio, andthis is about me.
I took a studio in Los Angelesand then I it was funny, there
was a lot of things happening atthe time and there was a lot of
(13:11):
loss coming to me.
It was looming large and it was.
I could feel it coming.
And probably the hardest thingfor me to speak about to it is
that I was in the studio.
(13:35):
I had these five large canvasesand they were blank, and they
were blank for months and I hadthe studio.
I mean, I had all the shit thatyou think, oh, hey, I got my
studio, I'm doing it, but Iwasn't really making the work
right.
I wasn't being prolific, Iwasn't really addressing my
inner creative urge to makesomething.
(13:55):
It was just, it was all kind ofconvoluted and a mess and then
the writing was on the wall,some of these things of
financial loss.
But I had a prelude to myfather's death coming and I felt
it and I made these fivepaintings in the last month that
I had the studio available tome and the titles of them I can
(14:20):
still remember them.
They're the work I make today.
So in a weird way, the tragedyis the beauty in my work,
because I finally said yes tosomething out of something
tragically happening to me and Iwas.
(14:41):
I didn't want to experience it,I wanted to avoid it like the
plague.
But my dad, he dropped dead at66 and it was something that I
had.
He helped me move thosepaintings too that I had just
made.
And two months, later he wasdead and and it's just kind of
(15:05):
like.
It's like history, right, youknow that history of a life
being lived and you denyingyourself what you are in order
to fit into some kind ofstereotypical thing that we say
is the right thing or whatever.
So denying oneself who they areand not saying yes to what they
(15:28):
know entirely is within theirbeing, can create such pain and
I think a lot of humanity iswalking around with that pain.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
I wholeheartedly agree.
And I see it and I feel it and Ihave an empathy about it, and
it is part of what I wrote inthis show that I opened
previously was those who havegone this way before you know, I
think we live in a collectiveconsciousness and there is a
collective flow of energy andwhen a vast majority of the
(16:05):
world is living in a certainflow, you know the flow of I got
to do what people will like, Igot to be somebody that people
will like and want to be around,all those things where we sell
out who we really are that flowis really really strong in that
(16:27):
collective consciousness andthose of us, like you're
describing you and we've talkedto other artists where we decide
to not just do what the worldwill like or what we believe the
world will like, but to reallydo us.
(16:48):
It is against that flow.
I mean, it's against a lot ofwhat we've been taught in our
families, in our schools, it'sagainst the messages that we've
gotten, sometimes from religioneven, and on top of that, it's
(17:08):
against that collective flow.
It's like being in a streamwhere the water's going down
really fast and you're trying tobe like a salmon and swim up.
It's really hard to maintain acertain level of energy when
you're swimming against thecurrent all the time.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
It's exhausting.
Speaker 3 (17:30):
It is.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
What I've tried to do through the work I'm making now
is by staying the course, nomatter what the outcome is, is
to have the opportunity torealize that, you know, being
who you are is more relatableand can be uniting.
(17:58):
You know, unite others by beingan example to that, so that
somehow or another, as long asI'm alive and breathing, there's
hope right and with that hopethat you're still confirming
that on a daily basis with howyou live and by being a maker.
(18:23):
Hopefully, the markings thatyou've made throughout your
lifetime will speak to that.
Speaker 3 (18:32):
Yeah Well, thank you for being a beacon for those who
aren't so bold as to abandonthe comfort of conforming.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
Thank you, that's a it's, it's, it's really it's.
Yeah, it's one of those thingswhere I've I'd never pictured, I
didn't, I didn't figure thisout.
It's a it's through living, butthe discoveries that I've made
have kind of led to this point,which inherently was within me
from the beginning, butoftentimes I don't.
(19:05):
I actually think this isinteresting, that we come
equipped with the knowledge andthe gifts and then we're born
Children have it all, don't they?
Speaker 2 (19:17):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (19:19):
And so Herman Hess alluded to the concept that
we're born into, that bliss, andit's deconstructed from the
moment we breathe Because we'reforced into.
Here you go, here's mom and dad, here's this, here's that, this
is society, this is school, andI drop you and you're just
constantly just like, and theessence of who you are is being
(19:39):
rooted out.
And so to hang on to what thatis and whatever that means, or
even if you come around to it,eventually that's still, I mean,
that's the hope, right, thateveryone, I think the journey of
all this, this life that welive, is about trying to find
that, and if you get a chance todiscover it and let alone live
(20:03):
that, then that's what we need,because then we all start to
become authentic versions ofourself, which really probably
translates into being the bestversion of yourself, because
then there's a fulfillment thatis speaking to your soul as
opposed to outside expectationsof what you should be in order
to be validated.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
And aren't you just describing, describing what it's
about reconnecting with who youwere to begin with?
Speaker 1 (20:32):
That's it.
I really believe that.
I really believe that as well,you delivered fully in the
nurturing that's required tobring you in to who you are,
your growth, your physicalgrowth, your mental growth, all
that.
But there are, there arestrings attached to the heart
(20:53):
and mind that are there dialingyou in from the beginning and
they're, they're tugging at you.
And that's that tug that youknow, and the intuitive voice,
the sixth sense, is that, andit's saying what are you doing?
Why are you not doing?
You know, and it can go on.
You know, I've literally havetaught adults their 60s and who
(21:21):
are finally saying yes to thething that they wanted to do
from the beginning.
And so that's speaking kind ofyou know, kind of concluding not
concluding, but kind ofbringing to fruition what we've
just kind of discussed on thishow to be a maker, be genuine
about it, live that life, staythe course and then hopefully
help others come to thatrealization too that they
(21:42):
collectively, like you mentioned, through community, are doing
the same thing, so that if wehave more of those people doing
those very same things togetherand individually, you start to
have flow, which you mentionedas well.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
You know, I have to believe there's some purpose in
all that.
We come into the world havingeverything.
Then it's beaten out of us indifferent ways and we spend our
life, if we're lucky, findingour way back to it.
That's it, and there's gotta be, because it happens to the vast
majority, the masses.
(22:16):
There's gotta be some purposein that that we just haven't yet
tuned into.
It's like a rite of passage.
Perhaps Is it that we wouldn'tappreciate it if we had it all
along.
Is it that when we lose it andwe have to search so hard to
re-establish that in ourselvesthat then we have an
(22:38):
appreciation for it that we justcouldn't have possibly had if
it had been there throughout theduration?
Speaker 1 (22:44):
Well then, that really is going to speak next to
what we could discuss toowithin that context has to
address suffering, and sosuffering is the loom out of
which character is made.
I think is the process of whatwe have to go through, which you
(23:13):
just mentioned, in order toknow that the spectrum of life
is full and all of it, if you'rehaving a life that's worth
living, is to be experienced,and that means good and bad, and
that spectrum can be reallyhorrific.
This, this is going to speak towhat recently just happened,
(23:37):
and it's really it's kind ofdevastating because I haven't
really talked about it.
I almost spoke about it in theprevious art talk At the art
opening, about it in theprevious art talk at the art
opening it touched.
So when I was in Maine, I wasmaking this work for an upcoming
(24:21):
show and I so we in asnowboarding accident and two
weeks later was suffering anischemic stroke, and it happened
when I was shipping thepaintings to Dallas.
My wife and I are reallystruggling right now with what
it's done to us.
It's left a big mark and a holeand she's okay, she's alive,
(24:41):
she's well, she's recovering,but it just whew.
It took a put a big hole inthere.
It just whew.
It took a put a big hole inthere and we just took her to a
CT scan yesterday and she's Ithink it's going to.
She had a dissection of anartery in her neck that led to
(25:03):
this, so it was not fromhealth-related reasons, but it
just the phone call.
You don't want to get the news,you don't want to hear.
I mean this and life is full ofthis for every single person on
the planet and it's daily thesuffering that mankind, humanity
, goes through.
(25:23):
And I just until something,until, like my dad, you know,
grief, we all experience things,but we outside, you know, we
collectively see it and we go,we become a bit numb to it and
we don't have empathy for theothers that are going through
this.
And, with my intimate family,have connected me further and
(25:54):
further out to others to say, myGod, you know.
Oh, I mean, I thought I did,but I didn't.
And now it's really made me wantto make sure that, to have that
awareness that this is, to havethat awareness that this is an
experience that we're all having, and we all are acquainted with
(26:15):
grief and sorrow and pain, butwe're also acquainted with joy,
happiness and if we can somehowintegrate those into the web of
the life that we lead, it can beprofound and you we lead, it
can be profound and you can beone can be profound and that can
have an impact.
So everybody else which we'vekind of addressed is that
(26:38):
awareness to others andhumanity's existence.
You know, we don't just just,it's not just us, it's like we
need to make sure that we don'tlose sight of the beauty that
we've been given in in life.
Like my precious beautifulchild, 32 years old, has an
(26:59):
ischemic stroke and I could havelost her.
I was, you know.
I thought I was not gonna makeit for a minute there and then I
had to regroup, reclaimperseverance and tenacity and
faith and stay the course, seethrough it, see through it, and
(27:22):
that's why I think the Stoicsrefer to love everything that
happens to you.
That's really hard, because wedo not want to suffer.
It's painful and grief can takeyou so far down that you're
acquainted with last for so long.
Yes.
Speaker 2 (27:41):
Oh.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
Billy Bob Thornton mentions it and I think it's a
really great way to describewhat.
He lost his brother and he'sbeen devastated ever since.
It was tragic for him.
And he said 50% of the time I'mhappy and 50% of the time I'm
sad.
And he said by choice, I choosethat because I don't want to
lose or forget my brother.
So instead of saying resistingwhat it is, embrace what it is.
(28:07):
Instead of saying resistingwhat it is, embrace what it is
and put it fully into your beingand absorb it.
Don't try to deflect it.
So when you take it on and takeit in, take the pain.
Then you have an opportunity tobecome extraordinary, because
the power that will come out ofyou as a result of being able to
take that on results in a peacethat is not of this world.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
You're describing alchemy.
You know, I've believed formany years now that if you look
hard enough in any situation,any experience, if you look for
it, you will find a silverlining and oftentimes many
silver linings, and you ever sobeautifully demonstrated that
(28:59):
with your story about yourdaughter's accident.
It was devastating and you'restill struggling with it, and
yet you've already found thesilver lining, at least one of
them.
You mentioned how it haddeepened your empathy for those
around you, that you might nothave previously had so much
(29:22):
empathy, and, my God, does ourworld need empathy right now?
And I know we've gotten kind ofesoteric here, but every ounce
of what you're describing playsa gigantic role in our creative
expression.
If it doesn't, then something'smissing in your art or in your
(29:44):
creation, if you're doingsomething that's different than
art.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
Exactly, and I think it's a great way to come full
circle with what we've just kindof had in our conversation,
which is it's life.
I mean so when I speak of art,I speak of life.
They kind of are intertwinedfor me, but that doesn't.
That's my, because that's myjourney.
I'm a maker, I make art, Ipaint, but I that means, but I
(30:13):
have a relatability to all inthe sense I can.
I can join in that conversationbecause of music, because of art
, because of dance, because oftheater, because of acting,
because of the doctor, you know,because of theater, because of
acting, because of the doctor.
You know there's art, life isart.
But if we could the nuance ofthat, if we could that empathy,
(30:38):
that would go along so much, itwould take us so much further
into solving what's wrong andthat the lifetime that we were
given, whatever that is thatmaybe we need to become more
aware, because empathy can't bethere if you're not aware.
(30:58):
And I think there's a, there'sa certain kind of, like you know
, shutting off, so I don't haveto feel that.
And where we spoke aboutvulnerability, when we speak
about allowing oneself to becomevulnerable, it's so hard
(31:21):
because the persona that isperceived by others can be
destroyed, but by allowing thatto happen because of the
vulnerability, you becomevulnerable.
An open book and thereby givepermission to others as well, by
(31:44):
example.
Speaker 2 (31:45):
By example permission .
I agree completely.
You know, mark.
I just want to say we have alot of conversations on this
podcast.
We have three scheduled thisweek.
We have a lot of conversations,three scheduled this week.
We have a lot of conversationsand while I would say most
(32:07):
everyone we've conversed withhas been a very authentic human
being Beautiful I got to say youknow from where I'm sitting
right now and this is moving tome to say this.
You have taken it to anotherlevel.
(32:27):
I just want to just reallyappreciate the realness that
you're showing up with.
Speaker 3 (32:31):
I mean, I'm deeply moved, yeah I have to call out
how it is that, sorry.
What what you're describing isa depth of experience that, if
we live long enough, we get tohave, and I know that you talked
(32:55):
about the significantmilestones I mean you got to
experience.
I can only imagine an intensejoy when you got to greet your
daughter in this world and youhad the shadow of your father's
passing that weighed on you soheavily.
(33:16):
And once again you're havingthis other experience with your
daughter and I appreciate whatit is to feel that fullness of
the experience, to have thatdepth.
A real loss can get a glimpseof the infinite and feel what it
(33:46):
is to to have that fullerexperience that most are kept
from, from really having.
Speaker 1 (33:54):
That's.
That's beautiful, dwight,because that's kind of what I'm
getting at, that it's not just,it's not about me.
And though we're individuals,we have autonomy, I think that
the collective body, if we alland it starts, it starts here,
(34:14):
right the individual self, thesoul, your intimate, your wife,
your partner, your spouse,whatever you know, who you love,
your children, your wife, yourpartner, your spouse, who you
love, your children, whatever,friends, and then it extends
itself out and it gets biggerand bigger and bigger.
I think it takes a village,right.
We don't embody what thatreally means.
We still segregate, we stillseparate, we still isolate, and
(34:37):
so we're always pushing thingsaway that we don't want to
experience or we find well, youknow, or status quo doesn't meet
the criteria, whatever that is,and all we're doing is
extending the pain and sufferingof humanity further.
Speaker 2 (34:56):
Yes, so if we just stopped the like, I don't know
(35:17):
like I feel what.
Speaker 1 (35:17):
I'm really trying to get to is a place where the
synergy is sacred, yes, and thatthrough identifying it and
being able to take hold of itand then following it, letting
it lead you, we have a chancefor a much deeper connection.
And then the life like so whenI was.
You know, like the tragedy, thebeauty and the horror of it all
(35:39):
.
Can you run to it?
Can you run into it and embraceit, or do you run from it?
And so what I've been learningis how to run to it.
Speaker 3 (35:50):
Yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (35:52):
And it's so painful, but when you do, there's another
side, and the other side ofthat is wholeness, and that
wholeness starts to make thewider scope of everything be
(36:17):
bound by love.
Love is the thread throughwhich everything should be about
.
Love is the thread throughwhich everything should be about
.
Speaker 2 (36:21):
Yes, and when you run toward it you actually have
that breakthrough and get to theother side much faster than you
would if you're running from it.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
You know that is it, isn't it, maddox?
I mean, think about it.
Sorry, I'm sniffing a little.
I'm basically speaking aboutmyself, so I'm not really
preaching here.
I'm speaking from experienceand what I've embraced, or tried
to formulate some sense to whatit is that I'm trying to live,
(36:58):
and still fucking it up at thesame time.
So there's no perfection here,it's just recognition.
No, we're humans.
Speaker 2 (37:05):
Yes, there is no perfection.
Speaker 1 (37:09):
We let ourselves down , we let other people down, but
I still feel like, if there's aconstant sense of awareness that
through all of that that westill find ourselves having that
deeper connection which Imentioned earlier, earlier is
the love, that thread of love,because ultimately it's not
(37:29):
about what you do, it's notabout what you have, it's about
the essence of who you are, andif you express what that is,
then everybody is a benefactor.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
You know, over the past few months that we've had
so many of these conversations Ihave come to realize and
believe that we as creativesbecause creatives infiltrate
every part of the earth, everyculture, every continent, every
country, we're everywhere.
And I have come to believe thatwe have the power to lead, to
(38:12):
guide humanity to that wholeness, to healing, to heal humanity.
I used to think it was coaches.
I'm not so sure I believe thatanymore.
Humanity I used to think it wascoaches.
I'm not so sure I believe thatanymore.
I think that I'm feeling it's,it's much, probably much more so
creatives.
Speaker 1 (38:33):
It's funny because I'm speaking with you, maddox
and Dwight, that um and our we,we've known each other for a
short period of time, but a lotof depth has been covered and
discovered at the same time,like it's kind of a you know, it
happened, you know, and Ibelieve in things unfolding for
a reason and there is fateplayed and encounters had
(39:03):
because of that.
So, that being said, we it'sfunny by doing this because
before I had been reluctant towant to do this talk Like it's
in here and I don't know if Ican get it out.
I don't know if I want to show,I don't want to be vulnerable,
I don't want to cry on you know,whatever.
But here's an example whichwe've just kind of had the
(39:25):
conversation about being a maker, the courage it takes and what
have you?
You still, when you finally runto it, as I mentioned, like
running into everything, likerun towards it, don't go away
from it, keep going right.
Like run towards it, don't goaway from it, keep going right,
(39:52):
what ends up happening isthere's an unfolding of the
things you never thought youwere capable of doing come into
the fold and then the fate thatyou might have you thought was
in store for you is completelyoff, because there's something
else coming out of you that wasmeant to be from the beginning,
but the timing of it is now.
So, talking, havingconversations through, from
(40:13):
writing, from reading, from allthese years of just kind of
hibernating, incubating, andthere's somewhat of an explosion
of this coming out of you thatI personally don't really know
how or why, but it's coming andI'm allowing it this time.
Speaker 2 (40:33):
I think I've just had an aha moment.
I think that our art, so oftenour making not just art, but
making is about our pain andabout our process, as we've
talked about.
And what if giving it a voicewhether it be a guest on a
(40:58):
podcast or in a circle of peoplearound a table, doesn't matter
where it is.
What if giving it a voice andsaying it out loud shakes
something loose and frees it upto a degree that now it more
powerfully shows up in your art?
Speaker 3 (41:15):
That's it.
Speaker 2 (41:16):
What if this is like the key to a deeper level of
creativity?
Because, truthfully, Ipersonally believe creativity is
not of me, it's coming throughme.
It's not of me.
Speaker 1 (41:30):
You're a vessel through which it comes.
Speaker 2 (41:32):
I'm a vessel, I'm a conduit, and the more I can open
the lines that free up thatpipeline, clear away any clogs
or anything that would preventit from flowing.
And having these conversationsand saying the hard things out
loud does just that.
It makes a better connection tothe divine.
Speaker 1 (42:00):
Essentially, that's really.
You could put that as a heading.
You know I speak of aspirationsto the divine, connections to
the divine.
The, the creative act, is ofthe divine.
But it's my personal beliefabsolutely, and my personal
(42:20):
experience but the essence ofthat is tainted oftentimes by
what we've kind of describedwe're selling out compromise got
to make a living, got to dothis, got to have this, got to
have, you know, and it's kind ofsocietal, just forcing you to
just figure out, like you know,how many people go to school at
(42:42):
18 years old and they become adoctor or a lawyer or whatever
you know that's going to pay themost money and I'm going to be,
and they're, you know, 30 yearsdown the road, just not happy.
And it's not about it's becausethey didn't listen to their
soul.
We were able to suppress that.
That's one thing about humanitythat still needs to be wakened
(43:03):
to is that too much of the worldpopulation is about suppressing
what they came here to do thegate ready to go and we have to
(43:24):
develop that and nurture that,and our job is to realize our
potential through the work thatwe put into developing those
kids.
But they come, they come,they're here.
Speaker 2 (43:29):
You know, you listed several things there, and what
came up for me was yes, andthere's at least one more, and
that is when we try to force ourcreativity.
Speaker 1 (43:41):
That's another thing.
Yeah, you can't do that either.
Speaker 2 (43:44):
You cannot.
You know it's trying to forceelectricity through the electric
outlet or force water throughthe tap in your kitchen sink.
It does not work that way, youknow yeah it's just as
inauthentic.
Well, and you know, for me,because I'm so clear that it
comes from source and that it'snot coming from me, I don't ever
(44:07):
experience creative block, butI don't try to force it either I
think that's that's.
Speaker 1 (44:15):
But that's part of being enlightened a bit there,
maddox, because when that comes,when you're able to do that,
the vessel through which itcomes out of right it's you and
you're responding to it insteadof forcing it.
So when you respond to what'scome, what is, the vessel is
allowed to express it witheffortless ability, like it just
(44:38):
comes out of you.
But we're fighting that andtrying to create it out of a
place of non-genuine,non-authentic or you know, come
on, I got to do this.
It becomes other and it'scontrived and it will speak to
the wrong.
It will speak in the wrongmanner.
It won't come across.
Speaker 2 (44:58):
I agree completely.
I mean what?
Hit me just this minute is.
Spirit is like a cat.
You know everything is on acat's own terms.
You don't get to pet them whenyou want to pet them.
You get to pet them when theywant you to pet them.
Speaker 1 (45:14):
And creativity and spirit work kind of the same way
you know, it's true, because,um, I think that's funny about
you know, animals that'sbeautiful to think about, like
the cats are very good examplebecause of the way in which they
(45:35):
behave and it is all on theirown time how they operate and so
, and so being be do havecorrect right, be do have.
So when I it's funny that you'dlike you we finally decided that
God can make an art, and thenhaving these kinds of
conversations do what we'vediscovered through the
(45:58):
conversation, which is connectand um, and put people more in
line with trying to aspire tothe divine, because in that
pursuit, I think we all findourselves, uh, connecting to
that thread of love more, whichis which I, like I said, I still
think that's the number onething out of all things, because
(46:18):
, if there is that there can be,know, it diminishes hate, it
cancels out so many of thenegative in life that it even
makes the negative parts of lifethat are difficult to bear more
beautiful, and that's the,that's love.
So running towards the thingsthat are we want to avoid.
(46:40):
So I even think about anxietyand stress and nerves, and all
this kind of angst is comingfrom the place of running away
from things as opposed torunning toward them.
And I think, if we can embodythe ability to say yes to
running towards it all, like youknow, jump in the cold water
(47:03):
when you're afraid to, or youknow, whatever it is moving
through, the outcomes areextraordinary, extraordinary.
Speaker 2 (47:14):
That's where you become other, you be, you leave
this planet, you're otherworldlybecause you're operating on a
divine level you know, I justwant to say I I think that your
wife and your daughter are arevery fortunate to have such a
heart-centered man in their lifethank you.
Speaker 1 (47:35):
Thank you, what a beautiful presence that you
bring to the conversation and Iand I think we can kind of round
up We'll talk about a littlebit of work kind of related to
what we've just kind of had,this conversation about Stories.
Right, the narrative, I think,when we like so, think of the
(48:00):
work I'm making like a landscapeis a portrait, you know
reclamation.
There's deep sensuality,humanness and emotion and that
comes from embracing what it islike like.
(48:21):
Like I said, I think we kind offound something today to me or
at least I have through it fromtalking with you guys about and
I I just it's.
It's that running towardssomething instead of running
away from it.
I really do, and then love beingthe thing that drives you,
because when you, when youreally have that, so then we
(48:41):
hold on to stories.
There's memories, so all thethings that we experience in our
lives.
Hopefully, what I'm doing inthe work that I make is giving
you an experience, creating amemory and making an imprint
that is sacred, that allows youto take that imprint and go out
and have that with you and carryit on in your life as well.
(49:03):
So that's connectedness, that'shuman connection and that's how
these things live on.
There's an eternal component tothe work.
Speaker 2 (49:12):
Rick.
Speaker 1 (49:13):
Archer oh my God, yes , kevin Patton, that is
timelessness, so that lineartime that we all operate.
You know, boom, boom, boom,boom boom.
Sometimes, if you're lucky inthis life that we live in that
linear construct of time,biology, age, we get to
experience everything all atonce.
(49:37):
We are everything all at onceall the time.
So everything that you haveever lived is in front of you,
it's with you, but instead ofcompartmentalizing it, it comes
in and you're with it, you holdit, you have it, and that's
pretty powerful, because thenyou are taking everything that
(50:01):
you've instead of trying to,like bury something or push
something to the side or defer.
Or because post-traumaticstress syndrome I never knew
what that was, because I alwaysthought it was something that
experienced something sohorrific.
It can be so subtle, yeah, itcan be so subtle that and way
more people experience than thanwe're.
(50:21):
There's so many people, yes,that are going through something
that hurt them and cause traumain their lives that they had to
defer, and it goes into theirbody, into their emotional
makeup, their psyche, and theyoperate.
They live their life throughthat prism.
So, until it's unleashed or letgo of, they don't get to embody
(50:46):
that all at once sensationbecause they have to
compartmentalize what it is inorder to function.
It's a kind of a managementthing, it's a mechanism, a
safety safety mechanism, if youwill yes, yeah, what I'm trying
(51:07):
to do through my work is get ridof that to be an extension of
something that allows you to nothave to have that, to not
compartmentalize, to experiencesomething wholly fully, in a
sacred manner that's holy, thattakes you and uplifts you and
puts you in a state that allowsfor that little moment.
(51:29):
I call it episodic reverie.
So cultivating presence in theepisodic reverie, the moment is
sacred, it's holy, and if we canget to the present state of our
, the present moment, thepresent moment, the present
moment, well, we don't have tobury the past either.
(51:52):
So, the past, future andpresent, we experience it all in
the present moment, whollyfully, embracingly, like we, we
we welcome it instead of well,let's put that over there, and
I'm going to put that over thereand I got this, and before you
know it, the shelves are full.
Speaker 2 (52:11):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (52:12):
And you're like fuck, I've got nowhere to put
anything anymore and I need tobe emptied out.
Speaker 2 (52:22):
I've been a very deeply feeling man my whole life
and I have never quite graspedwhy people are so afraid of
their feelings.
I mean, they'll tell me, youknow, so I can understand it
intellectually, but on thatinternal level, being such a
deep feeling person, but on thatinternal level being such a
(52:45):
deep feeling person, and I'mblessed because when I was a
little boy my dad had aconversation with me where he
normalized it, he made it okayfor me to feel my feelings and
he made it okay for me toexpress my emotions.
That's profound, and so I'vebeen able to do that my whole
life and it's always beenstrange to me why I I bump into
(53:06):
so few people on the street likeme.
It's and it's always kind ofmade me feel on the outside,
looking in and, interestinglyenough, that is that's.
Speaker 1 (53:20):
You have that experience and you're outside
looking in and the people thathave not had that experience are
outside looking in, and that isbecause, because of what their
experience is, so they it's thatdeferment and you're going why
I don't understand and see.
That's where we want to findthat thread that connects
everything back to what it wasoriginally meant to be, which
(53:42):
was love.
Creation is love.
Yes, I mean, think about it.
There's not really the actitself, even if it's coming from
a place that's angry.
Speaker 2 (53:55):
There is an inherently deep level of
sensation of love that is theimpetus to create it you know,
for dwight and I, our creativityshows up in creating
experiences for people yeah,shows up and having these
conversations and creating thisplatform for this podcast and
(54:18):
for makers and creators to comein here.
It shows up in our desire tocreate real community, not the
facsimile bullshit that we seeevery day, where people call it
community and it's really just agroup.
But we really had this visionfor real, live community.
Speaker 1 (54:37):
I hate the group thing, I'm sorry.
Speaker 2 (54:39):
And it's just what'd you say?
Speaker 1 (54:40):
The group thing, we label everything and then it
becomes contrary yes, I'm sorry,and just what you say, the
group thing I get.
Yeah, we label everything.
And then it becomes contrary.
Speaker 2 (54:47):
Yes, yes, but this is all.
Yes, every ounce of it isfilled with love.
Every email that I write isfilled with love and my desire
to have a positive impact, tomake a difference, and it's such
a part of us that we couldn't.
It's our identity.
(55:08):
I couldn't separate myself fromthis.
Speaker 1 (55:11):
That's right, I mean.
That's why I think havingsomething like this as a forum,
without being labeled,pigeonholed or contrived in any
way, that the openness for itand then the opportunity to
bring as many people to thatplatform as possible will do
(55:32):
what we're having a discussionabout today, which is, you know,
bring everything you have tothe table, but bring it with
love, vulnerability and thewillingness to take a risk,
because risks really are theyrisks or are they just being
authentic?
At the end of the day, if youreally call, you know the risk
(55:54):
is to let go of fear, take theleap right, the net will appear.
But, like I say, I call makinga painting a courageous act.
But ultimately, those thingsbecome those kinds of acts
because of the way society, ithas evolved, the evolution of
society.
Where, why, would you know, thecave painters in lascaux made
(56:19):
marks on a cave wall?
Was that a risk?
Or were they defining, werethey making a narrative about
something?
They had something impulsively,inherently in their being,
soulfully, to mark somethingdown, you know.
But as we've evolved, we'vemade certain things risks,
because that's outside of thebox.
Fuck that, thank you.
(56:42):
That's the problem.
Yes, we are outside of the box.
There was never a box to beginwith, but they fucking put us
there.
They want everyone in one.
Yeah, it allows them to controlthat yeah when you're outside of
that, you are free, and whenyou're free there's nothing that
can take away what that isanymore.
So then, if you create fromthat viewpoint, from that
(57:03):
feeling or the essence of free,there's only love there, so then
the box goes away.
But people really want to putyou back in there.
Speaker 2 (57:17):
Yes, but wait you know kind of have that filing
cabinet.
Speaker 1 (57:20):
Marks coloring outside the colors.
Well, yeah, because I don'treally see.
You know, I'm just respondingto who I am.
Speaker 2 (57:28):
Yeah, outside of the lines is where all the magic
happens.
Speaker 3 (57:31):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (57:32):
There would be no magic.
I mean alchemy I love that word.
The alchemy we all seek isthere, absolutely.
It's breathing.
It's breathing, it's alive,it's right within your grasp at
all times and, like I said, wejust need to move toward it.
Speaker 2 (57:51):
I think my takeaway after today and I don't usually
have takeaways at the end ofepisodes, but today I absolutely
do, because this has beenreally big for me.
Speaker 3 (58:03):
Thank, you absolutely do, because this is just this
has been really big for me.
Speaker 2 (58:05):
My takeaway is just when you know when our art is,
almost always it encapsulatesour, our pain, our trauma.
And when we can give our painand our trauma a voice and say
it out loud, we are opening upsomething to then pour it more
wholeheartedly into ourcreations I believe that 100, I
(58:26):
think it's.
Speaker 1 (58:28):
That's really wonderful.
Well put, maddox.
I I mean, like I said, I thinkthat richness and beauty, the
solitude that we we're, if wecan just find ways to the
solitude that we, if we can justfind ways to, like you said,
(58:51):
that vulnerability but at thesame time be authentic in the
unfolding of your own intuitiveresponses to things, I think
that's what being creative is,and if you can, the more you
practice what that is which is aresponse.
It's not, it's not a, it's nota checklist, it's, it's pure
alchemy.
But once you are in tune withthat, the, the paintings paint
(59:16):
themselves, the writing writesitself.
You know, everything starts tounfold the way it's supposed to
through you, because you'veallowed the channel to be open.
Speaker 2 (59:26):
It opens a big door.
I've said for some time nowvulnerability builds bridges,
opens doors and clears pathwaysin a manner that nothing else
can.
Speaker 1 (59:38):
And it opens the floodgates of possibility.
Yes, yes, yes, once.
Then, once you have the openingof that, when you, when you get
to discover what thatpossibility is, then the work
that is needed to have that berealized, the work that needs to
be put in the development, youknow, like, going to the gym,
(01:00:00):
I'm going to get, I'm working onthis, I'm working on that.
You know, like, going to thegym, I'm going to get, I'm
working on this, I'm working onthat.
You know, training, thetraining, the work, those will.
You'll discover them withouthaving to discover them, because
naturally flow, won't it?
Yes, yeah, because doing flowsnaturally from being you be do
have, because when we think,here's what happens and I think
(01:00:24):
this is a great way to kind ofit's it's like like the memories
that we have, that we'recreating on a daily basis memory
, memory, memory, experiences.
So I think if we could dismantlehierarchy, that's one thing
(01:00:49):
that is still left, that needsto be dealt with, in my opinion.
I think that the hierarchiesdecide things for others that
the others should be deciding,and I think sometimes that
inhibits someone that is on thecrossroads of becoming
extraordinary or not, becausethey haven't, they can't, just
(01:01:12):
because thinking.
So when you be, do have,thinking is an essential thing
to do.
Right, you have to, you cananalyze something, but there
comes a point in time where thethinking has to be left to the
side and you have to do, and ifyou don't do, you don't get a
result.
You can think all day long,your brain will think you did
(01:01:34):
something and there will benothing that has been
accomplished no, no product todemonstrate that yeah I can look
at them.
I can look at that canvas allday, for weeks and months and
even years and nothing.
And I go, but I fucking paintedthat.
You know, I got this paintinghere and I can't wait to execute
it.
Boy, all the ducks are in a row.
(01:01:56):
Look, I got this sketch, I gotthis, I got that, I got, I got
this, I got my.
Speaker 2 (01:02:00):
You know all the things that you need you gotta
dip the brush in the paint,don't you?
Speaker 1 (01:02:05):
you don't need anything, you need you.
You need to be the vessel.
So the one one thing I know forsure, then, this is what we get
kind of caught up into.
Da vinci said it, and I lovethis because I think if we
applied this, it's really withai and technology and things
that are unfolding here now westill should honor the creative
(01:02:30):
act as being a pure form andextension of the love that we
just described the thread, andso the supreme misfortune is
when theory outstripsperformance yeah well said.
Yes, creativity is theperformance.
(01:02:50):
Acting on it, that's yourperformance.
You can theorize all day long,we can.
We can formulize theories toher till we're not here anymore.
And what will that leave uswith?
a bunch of theories but if we do, if we perform, we have results
.
Those results lead to more andmore performances, more, more,
(01:03:14):
more.
So then be do, have becomesreal and it compounds itself,
and then everybody's be doingand having and oh, my goodness,
what's going on here?
Because we're not tidying upourselves with our thoughts and
keeping them inside this littlebook that no one can look at.
Yeah, so sharing is part ofthat.
(01:03:35):
So that's why I say it's acourageous act to be a creative,
because you have to share.
Speaker 2 (01:03:40):
You do.
I love this.
You're going to thrive.
You have to share.
Speaker 3 (01:03:45):
Well, and it's not.
You haven't really createdanything until you have shared.
Speaker 2 (01:03:51):
Yeah, even if you've made it.
If you're not sharing it, it'syeah.
Well said, dwight, I get it.
Speaker 1 (01:03:56):
Yeah, dwight, that's exactly so.
We all need to get off our deadasses and make Make.
Speaker 2 (01:04:03):
I agree, make Wow.
This has been one hell of apowerful conversation.
I feel like I have learned alot in this hour.
Thank you, that was a hope forboth of us all together.
And I felt the presence of thatspirit coming through all this
conversation, absolutely so.
(01:04:25):
One of the things we do beforewe wrap up an episode, mark, is
we do rapid fire questions forrapid fire answers.
Okay, are you answers?
Okay, are you ready?
Okay, here goes Question onewhat is a creative risk you're
glad you took?
Speaker 1 (01:04:47):
Saying yes to painting.
Speaker 2 (01:04:52):
Simple and accurate.
I love it.
Okay, how do you define acreative community?
Speaker 1 (01:05:06):
Good, a community that operates out of love.
Speaker 2 (01:05:15):
Short and sweet, but very, very effective.
Speaker 1 (01:05:19):
Very well said yes.
And last question and you guysbrought that out today because
the love thread really kind ofcame through to me really
strongly- it did to me too.
Speaker 2 (01:05:31):
I'm glad.
Thank you for calling that out.
Yes, thank you, and it's worthrepeating.
So our final question is what'sa failure that you've turned
into a success?
Speaker 1 (01:06:00):
grief, I've, I've.
I felt like I failed miserablyat processing what that meant to
me and I had a very bad run ofit, but I I reawakened and
overcame it, and that's what Icame up with running towards it
as opposed to running away fromit.
Speaker 2 (01:06:11):
Wow, yes, I would say that's what I came up with
running towards it as opposed torunning away from it.
Wow, yes, I would say that's asuccess, mark.
Speaker 1 (01:06:16):
But it's you know, it resonates deeply and it's like
I said, I love that Billy, butyou know, 50% of 50% it's just
with me now.
I carry it with me just likeeverything else.
But when you connect that withthe love thing again, it
empowers you, it makes you morepowerful as a human being on the
(01:06:38):
planet.
Speaker 2 (01:06:39):
Yes, I agree.
Speaker 1 (01:06:41):
It gives you empathy for others.
Speaker 2 (01:06:45):
And that oozes out of you, by the way.
Yes, you are very definitely avery kind and gentle soul.
Speaker 1 (01:06:53):
Thank you, I mean, that's I just I.
My hope is that we allespecially I think that's kind
of been coming up runningalongside me like that we all,
we just need it.
We need it.
And I think when I said God,just fuck all of the steroids,
fuck everything except let'sjust all get on board with being
kind to each other, loving eachother and it's just old, you
(01:07:16):
know old adage, right, butpractice it.
A movement Simplifies so manythings because then everyone has
the same goal.
Speaker 2 (01:07:26):
Yep, I'm with you there.
I'm on board.
Speaker 1 (01:07:30):
Yeah, you guys are on board.
That's why I said yes to dothis.
I'm on board.
Yeah, you guys are on board.
That's why I said yes to dothis Mark.
Speaker 2 (01:07:33):
this has been wonderful.
Thank you so much for all ofthe truth and all of the
authenticity and vulnerabilitythat you brought to today's
conversation.
Speaker 1 (01:07:45):
Yeah, it's been great .
You guys are wonderful.
I thoroughly enjoyed speakingwith you and it's a credit to
you too, I feel I feel free, soit's, it was a pleasure.
Speaker 2 (01:07:57):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (01:08:01):
Thank you, Maddox Honor.
so the supreme misfortune is when theory
outstrips performance yeah wellsaid.
Yes, creativity is theperformance.
Acting on it, that's yourperformance.
You can theorize all day long,we can.
We can formalize theories toher till we're not here anymore.
(00:31):
And what will that leave uswith?
A bunch of theories but if wedo, if we perform, we have
results.
Those results lead to more andmore performances, more, more,
more.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Hello, this is Maddox and Dwight.
You guessed it.
It's another episode of For theLove of Creatives, and today
our guest is Mark Russell-Jones.
Welcome, mark, how you doing.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
Thank you guys, thank you Dwight, thank you Maddox.
So I guess I would have to sayfirst and foremost that I am an
artist.
I live that life which isall-en encompassing, to the
extent that I make work, and soeverything that I live going out
(01:33):
and about traveling and seeingthe world this kind of filtered
through the idea that I'm goingto make something from the
result of that experience.
It's been not that easy fromthe get gogo.
You know, as a child I wasalways drawing and drawing and I
thought it was just part of whoI was.
My dad was a farmer.
I walked the land.
I was always kind of noticingthings and looking and
(01:55):
transcribing pictures fromencyclopedias back in the day
and that's how I kind of startedformulating.
You know that I was day andthat's how I kind of started
formulating.
You know that I was, that Imade things, I drew and painted.
Long story short, I just Iended up going to art school,
finally saying yes to it, givingmyself permission to say that
I'm a painter.
I spent a summer in Madrid andwas going to look at Velazquez
(02:18):
paintings at the Prado and Ijust finally realized I said,
you know, in my heart of hearts,I just said, I'm a painter and
I don't think I can really denythat anymore.
So I went back to art schooland finished a degree in
painting and from that moment onthat's kind of what I've been
up to trying to speak throughpainting, if you will.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
So you used the word finally.
I finally went to art school,and it was your second time
around.
You'd already been to school,so how big a span of time was in
between that.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
So, coming from working class, it's always with
me.
So the idea that you work for aliving and that art somehow got
relegated outside of that.
It got put outside as a hobby,as not a life, not a way to live
from.
So I was always, it was justembedded into my consciousness
(03:16):
that that's kind of what I had,to keep it to the side.
So by me trying to challengemyself and live the antithesis
of that, trying to come to termswith, you know I giving myself
permission to do that, I finallydid by that summer in Madrid.
So what I did before that wasokay, I'll do graphic design.
Okay, I'll do somethingcreative, which is which I love,
(03:40):
and actually those things thatI actually entered into with the
design elements and compositionand so all the things I kind of
laid the groundwork for havemade me a far better artist
skill wise.
So in that regard, it wasn'tever wasted.
It was just about me sayingtaking that toolbox that I have
grown and added to as I wentthrough life and said yes, so I
(04:03):
basically I got married and hada child who was two months old
and I went to art school.
So when I became a father Idecided that if I'm going to
teach my child to live theirdreams.
I better be pursuing my own.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
You know, I think there's certain milestones in
our lives that do exactly that.
It can be a birth, it can be adeath.
Do exactly that.
It can be a birth, it can be adeath.
And I've told this before, butfor many years I said one of
these days I'm going to takepainting lessons.
And when my father died, I saidtoday is that day.
I had that slap of mortality inthe face, realizing I wasn't
(04:40):
going to live forever.
And I can see.
I loved the way you stated.
You know you wanted to modelsomething to that child.
Yes, and you wanted to model itfrom the very beginning.
And that's so powerful, thankyou.
What a gift to that child.
Oh, my gosh.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Well, to grow up with 100% of not knowing anything
other than it's okay to be, it'spretty powerful Because you
don't.
There's a lot of baggage that'sleft at the baggage claim.
You don't have to go claim it,you're free, and so I mean, but
that's a really hard thing to do, because I'm the first one to
(05:22):
say that I go like this you know, I have security, stability,
there's all these issues with it, and when you break it down to
essence and I've said thisbefore where the, the courageous
act of being a creative makingis so bold and I don't think
(05:43):
people realize how much couragethat does take, because we live
in a world that's still in spiteof the need for it and
surrounding themselves with itand purchasing it and buying it
and all of that we still areleft kind of outside of that.
The community of the ones whoacquire it.
It's a.
It's a.
It's very hard and but I thinkwhen you continue on and you
(06:07):
keep going, you find that youcan.
You can have it all in thesense of being who you truly
were meant to be, regardless ofthe outcome.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
I love that.
I love that.
That's beautiful man.
My head is just really like I'mpondering what you just said.
Wow.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
It's.
I mean, I think, and I wastalking to another artist, eric,
who you guys had, eric EricBreisch, yeah, and I, I was
talking to him, artist Eric, whoyou guys had, eric Eric Breisch
, yeah, eric.
Breisch and I was talking to himabout it.
I mean he alluded to it in theartist talk that we had at the
opening and it's a big kind of ahow can I say it?
(07:00):
Well, so, authenticity correct.
So being authentic, genuine,having integrity.
So when one begins the plight ofmaking and deciding that
they're going to pursue this, Ithink the greatest challenge
really is the courage to do itin the first place, yes, but
(07:22):
then after that to stay thecourse, which means can you stay
the course where the compromiseof who you are, you don't, you
refuse to, not, you refuse tonot make that compromise Meaning
I know that this will get methis and I know if I do this,
I'll get that.
And if I check, check, check,right, and there are there's
(07:45):
maps, you can follow them tofame, fortune, getting
recognized.
There's things that you can doand what I've really tried to do
and I've adhered to it to thisday, and it's a much more
difficult road is to make workthat comes to me, through me and
(08:08):
through my own thoughts andprocesses and living and doing,
and I don't go outside of thatexcept in the, in the pursuit of
knowing art history well enoughto honor it and being the
lineage of it and following that, but never to try to pluck
myself out of obscurity intosomething that I'm not in order
(08:30):
to be recognized.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
So I don't believe in that Well, you may be saying
something that we heard fromanother artist that we just
recently had a conversation with.
She made the comment that sheonly makes art that she wants to
make Only Period, like shedoesn't do the gee, is this
(08:53):
going to sell?
Do I need to make somethingthat's going to sell?
Do I need to make somethingthat I know is commercial?
She said I make art that I amdrawn to make period, with no
regard to whether it's going tosell or not.
And you know, I said and doesit sell?
And she said yes, and I saidGod, every artist needs to hear
(09:13):
that.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
Right.
So there is a tradeoff bystaying that course of being
authentic in your work, and itmay take a long time.
I mean, one of my favoriteartists right now is 91 years
old, frank bowling.
He's an african-americangentleman, just beautiful work,
(09:37):
um, he's been at it for a longtime and he has a solo show in
paris and his acclaim has beenongoing for, you know, 20 plus
years, but he didn't it's.
It's something that's unfoldingas he lives his life and it's
happening to him and therecognition is coming from, but
it is coming from a place of hisown authenticity.
So that's what we're after.
(09:59):
The recognition comes from aplace that is genuine.
That you're not.
You didn't falsify yourself toclaim it.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
I think that is so powerful because I think we miss
the mark when we make what wethink we'll sell.
Something that's commercial ormainstream.
We've sold our souls to thedevil in that moment stream.
We've sold our souls to thedevil in that moment.
And I'm not particularlysomebody that actually I'm using
(10:29):
that just in tongue-in-cheekbecause I'm not somebody that
necessarily really buys into theconcept of devil, but I I do
think that we, we somehow all ofthe arts, for that matter,
there is a level of in order to,because it's so difficult.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
I mean, that's the challenge we face, right, making
something and then have youknow, can you live from that?
And that's, I think, theapproach has to be that maybe
it's not about living from it,that living from it ends up
being the consequence of havingthe courage to do it, and if it
happens, beautiful.
And if it doesn't, usually youremain true to yourself
(11:06):
regardless of that.
And that's really hard, becauseI mentioned security, stability
, fame, fortune record, you know, all of those things put in,
put into the pot, right, andyou're, we're all vying for some
of that because we're, we wereborn into this world.
We have, there's, a mandatethat requires us that we live
from it.
We have no choice and it's aplight because there's so much
(11:30):
conditioning in societalevolution that requires us to
make these decisions that we'renot equipped to make really
until much later.
But it's put onto us so earlyin life, it's pounded into us
that you have to do this and youdo this, and if you do that,
you get that and you'll havethat, and you know, and you're
just an artist who wants to makethings.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
I've recently been studying the be do have versus
do have be.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
It's hard for me to spit that out yeah, we do have
yeah but it's a fascinatingconcept and I think on on some
level, I'm hearing you echo,echo some of that I think and
this is this is going to beemotional for me to share, but I
think what happened for me as Imentioned, my daughter being
(12:27):
born that was the impetus to sayyes to this journey.
But then the journey, if youwill, stagnated, making a large
amount of money in somethingelse.
You know journey life takingyou in different directions,
right, holding on to the thing,this thing of art loss.
You know journey life takingyou in different directions,
right, hey, holding on to thething that, this thing of art
(12:50):
and then feeling like it'sslipping away from you.
Then you take a studio, andthis is about me.
I took a studio in Los Angelesand then I it was funny, there
was a lot of things happening atthe time and there was a lot of
(13:11):
loss coming to me.
It was looming large and it was.
I could feel it coming.
And probably the hardest thingfor me to speak about to it is
that I was in the studio.
(13:35):
I had these five large canvasesand they were blank, and they
were blank for months and I hadthe studio.
I mean, I had all the shit thatyou think, oh, hey, I got my
studio, I'm doing it, but Iwasn't really making the work
right.
I wasn't being prolific, Iwasn't really addressing my
inner creative urge to makesomething.
(13:55):
It was just, it was all kind ofconvoluted and a mess and then
the writing was on the wall,some of these things of
financial loss.
But I had a prelude to myfather's death coming and I felt
it and I made these fivepaintings in the last month that
I had the studio available tome and the titles of them I can
(14:20):
still remember them.
They're the work I make today.
So in a weird way, the tragedyis the beauty in my work,
because I finally said yes tosomething out of something
tragically happening to me and Iwas.
(14:41):
I didn't want to experience it,I wanted to avoid it like the
plague.
But my dad, he dropped dead at66 and it was something that I
had.
He helped me move thosepaintings too that I had just
made.
And two months, later he wasdead and and it's just kind of
(15:05):
like.
It's like history, right, youknow that history of a life
being lived and you denyingyourself what you are in order
to fit into some kind ofstereotypical thing that we say
is the right thing or whatever.
So denying oneself who they areand not saying yes to what they
(15:28):
know entirely is within theirbeing, can create such pain and
I think a lot of humanity iswalking around with that pain.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
I wholeheartedly agree.
And I see it and I feel it and Ihave an empathy about it, and
it is part of what I wrote inthis show that I opened
previously was those who havegone this way before you know, I
think we live in a collectiveconsciousness and there is a
collective flow of energy andwhen a vast majority of the
(16:05):
world is living in a certainflow, you know the flow of I got
to do what people will like, Igot to be somebody that people
will like and want to be around,all those things where we sell
out who we really are that flowis really really strong in that
(16:27):
collective consciousness andthose of us, like you're
describing you and we've talkedto other artists where we decide
to not just do what the worldwill like or what we believe the
world will like, but to reallydo us.
(16:48):
It is against that flow.
I mean, it's against a lot ofwhat we've been taught in our
families, in our schools, it'sagainst the messages that we've
gotten, sometimes from religioneven, and on top of that, it's
(17:08):
against that collective flow.
It's like being in a streamwhere the water's going down
really fast and you're trying tobe like a salmon and swim up.
It's really hard to maintain acertain level of energy when
you're swimming against thecurrent all the time.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
It's exhausting.
Speaker 3 (17:30):
It is.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
What I've tried to do through the work I'm making now
is by staying the course, nomatter what the outcome is, is
to have the opportunity torealize that, you know, being
who you are is more relatableand can be uniting.
(17:58):
You know, unite others by beingan example to that, so that
somehow or another, as long asI'm alive and breathing, there's
hope right and with that hopethat you're still confirming
that on a daily basis with howyou live and by being a maker.
(18:23):
Hopefully, the markings thatyou've made throughout your
lifetime will speak to that.
Speaker 3 (18:32):
Yeah Well, thank you for being a beacon for those who
aren't so bold as to abandonthe comfort of conforming.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
Thank you, that's a it's, it's, it's really it's.
Yeah, it's one of those thingswhere I've I'd never pictured, I
didn't, I didn't figure thisout.
It's a it's through living, butthe discoveries that I've made
have kind of led to this point,which inherently was within me
from the beginning, butoftentimes I don't.
(19:05):
I actually think this isinteresting, that we come
equipped with the knowledge andthe gifts and then we're born
Children have it all, don't they?
Speaker 2 (19:17):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (19:19):
And so Herman Hess alluded to the concept that
we're born into, that bliss, andit's deconstructed from the
moment we breathe Because we'reforced into.
Here you go, here's mom and dad, here's this, here's that, this
is society, this is school, andI drop you and you're just
constantly just like, and theessence of who you are is being
(19:39):
rooted out.
And so to hang on to what thatis and whatever that means, or
even if you come around to it,eventually that's still, I mean,
that's the hope, right, thateveryone, I think the journey of
all this, this life that welive, is about trying to find
that, and if you get a chance todiscover it and let alone live
(20:03):
that, then that's what we need,because then we all start to
become authentic versions ofourself, which really probably
translates into being the bestversion of yourself, because
then there's a fulfillment thatis speaking to your soul as
opposed to outside expectationsof what you should be in order
to be validated.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
And aren't you just describing, describing what it's
about reconnecting with who youwere to begin with?
Speaker 1 (20:32):
That's it.
I really believe that.
I really believe that as well,you delivered fully in the
nurturing that's required tobring you in to who you are,
your growth, your physicalgrowth, your mental growth, all
that.
But there are, there arestrings attached to the heart
(20:53):
and mind that are there dialingyou in from the beginning and
they're, they're tugging at you.
And that's that tug that youknow, and the intuitive voice,
the sixth sense, is that, andit's saying what are you doing?
Why are you not doing?
You know, and it can go on.
You know, I've literally havetaught adults their 60s and who
(21:21):
are finally saying yes to thething that they wanted to do
from the beginning.
And so that's speaking kind ofyou know, kind of concluding not
concluding, but kind ofbringing to fruition what we've
just kind of discussed on thishow to be a maker, be genuine
about it, live that life, staythe course and then hopefully
help others come to thatrealization too that they
(21:42):
collectively, like you mentioned, through community, are doing
the same thing, so that if wehave more of those people doing
those very same things togetherand individually, you start to
have flow, which you mentionedas well.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
You know, I have to believe there's some purpose in
all that.
We come into the world havingeverything.
Then it's beaten out of us indifferent ways and we spend our
life, if we're lucky, findingour way back to it.
That's it, and there's gotta be, because it happens to the vast
majority, the masses.
(22:16):
There's gotta be some purposein that that we just haven't yet
tuned into.
It's like a rite of passage.
Perhaps Is it that we wouldn'tappreciate it if we had it all
along.
Is it that when we lose it andwe have to search so hard to
re-establish that in ourselvesthat then we have an
(22:38):
appreciation for it that we justcouldn't have possibly had if
it had been there throughout theduration?
Speaker 1 (22:44):
Well then, that really is going to speak next to
what we could discuss toowithin that context has to
address suffering, and sosuffering is the loom out of
which character is made.
I think is the process of whatwe have to go through, which you
(23:13):
just mentioned, in order toknow that the spectrum of life
is full and all of it, if you'rehaving a life that's worth
living, is to be experienced,and that means good and bad, and
that spectrum can be reallyhorrific.
This, this is going to speak towhat recently just happened,
(23:37):
and it's really it's kind ofdevastating because I haven't
really talked about it.
I almost spoke about it in theprevious art talk At the art
opening, about it in theprevious art talk at the art
opening it touched.
So when I was in Maine, I wasmaking this work for an upcoming
(24:21):
show and I so we in asnowboarding accident and two
weeks later was suffering anischemic stroke, and it happened
when I was shipping thepaintings to Dallas.
My wife and I are reallystruggling right now with what
it's done to us.
It's left a big mark and a holeand she's okay, she's alive,
(24:41):
she's well, she's recovering,but it just whew.
It took a put a big hole inthere.
It just whew.
It took a put a big hole inthere and we just took her to a
CT scan yesterday and she's Ithink it's going to.
She had a dissection of anartery in her neck that led to
(25:03):
this, so it was not fromhealth-related reasons, but it
just the phone call.
You don't want to get the news,you don't want to hear.
I mean this and life is full ofthis for every single person on
the planet and it's daily thesuffering that mankind, humanity
, goes through.
(25:23):
And I just until something,until, like my dad, you know,
grief, we all experience things,but we outside, you know, we
collectively see it and we go,we become a bit numb to it and
we don't have empathy for theothers that are going through
this.
And, with my intimate family,have connected me further and
(25:54):
further out to others to say, myGod, you know.
Oh, I mean, I thought I did,but I didn't.
And now it's really made me wantto make sure that, to have that
awareness that this is, to havethat awareness that this is an
experience that we're all having, and we all are acquainted with
(26:15):
grief and sorrow and pain, butwe're also acquainted with joy,
happiness and if we can somehowintegrate those into the web of
the life that we lead, it can beprofound and you we lead, it
can be profound and you can beone can be profound and that can
have an impact.
So everybody else which we'vekind of addressed is that
(26:38):
awareness to others andhumanity's existence.
You know, we don't just just,it's not just us, it's like we
need to make sure that we don'tlose sight of the beauty that
we've been given in in life.
Like my precious beautifulchild, 32 years old, has an
(26:59):
ischemic stroke and I could havelost her.
I was, you know.
I thought I was not gonna makeit for a minute there and then I
had to regroup, reclaimperseverance and tenacity and
faith and stay the course, seethrough it, see through it, and
(27:22):
that's why I think the Stoicsrefer to love everything that
happens to you.
That's really hard, because wedo not want to suffer.
It's painful and grief can takeyou so far down that you're
acquainted with last for so long.
Yes.
Speaker 2 (27:41):
Oh.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
Billy Bob Thornton mentions it and I think it's a
really great way to describewhat.
He lost his brother and he'sbeen devastated ever since.
It was tragic for him.
And he said 50% of the time I'mhappy and 50% of the time I'm
sad.
And he said by choice, I choosethat because I don't want to
lose or forget my brother.
So instead of saying resistingwhat it is, embrace what it is.
(28:07):
Instead of saying resistingwhat it is, embrace what it is
and put it fully into your beingand absorb it.
Don't try to deflect it.
So when you take it on and takeit in, take the pain.
Then you have an opportunity tobecome extraordinary, because
the power that will come out ofyou as a result of being able to
take that on results in a peacethat is not of this world.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
You're describing alchemy.
You know, I've believed formany years now that if you look
hard enough in any situation,any experience, if you look for
it, you will find a silverlining and oftentimes many
silver linings, and you ever sobeautifully demonstrated that
(28:59):
with your story about yourdaughter's accident.
It was devastating and you'restill struggling with it, and
yet you've already found thesilver lining, at least one of
them.
You mentioned how it haddeepened your empathy for those
around you, that you might nothave previously had so much
(29:22):
empathy, and, my God, does ourworld need empathy right now?
And I know we've gotten kind ofesoteric here, but every ounce
of what you're describing playsa gigantic role in our creative
expression.
If it doesn't, then something'smissing in your art or in your
(29:44):
creation, if you're doingsomething that's different than
art.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
Exactly, and I think it's a great way to come full
circle with what we've just kindof had in our conversation,
which is it's life.
I mean so when I speak of art,I speak of life.
They kind of are intertwinedfor me, but that doesn't.
That's my, because that's myjourney.
I'm a maker, I make art, Ipaint, but I that means, but I
(30:13):
have a relatability to all inthe sense I can.
I can join in that conversationbecause of music, because of art
, because of dance, because oftheater, because of acting,
because of the doctor, you know,because of theater, because of
acting, because of the doctor.
You know there's art, life isart.
But if we could the nuance ofthat, if we could that empathy,
(30:38):
that would go along so much, itwould take us so much further
into solving what's wrong andthat the lifetime that we were
given, whatever that is thatmaybe we need to become more
aware, because empathy can't bethere if you're not aware.
(30:58):
And I think there's a, there'sa certain kind of, like you know
, shutting off, so I don't haveto feel that.
And where we spoke aboutvulnerability, when we speak
about allowing oneself to becomevulnerable, it's so hard
(31:21):
because the persona that isperceived by others can be
destroyed, but by allowing thatto happen because of the
vulnerability, you becomevulnerable.
An open book and thereby givepermission to others as well, by
(31:44):
example.
Speaker 2 (31:45):
By example permission .
I agree completely.
You know, mark.
I just want to say we have alot of conversations on this
podcast.
We have three scheduled thisweek.
We have a lot of conversations,three scheduled this week.
We have a lot of conversationsand while I would say most
(32:07):
everyone we've conversed withhas been a very authentic human
being Beautiful I got to say youknow from where I'm sitting
right now and this is moving tome to say this.
You have taken it to anotherlevel.
(32:27):
I just want to just reallyappreciate the realness that
you're showing up with.
Speaker 3 (32:31):
I mean, I'm deeply moved, yeah I have to call out
how it is that, sorry.
What what you're describing isa depth of experience that, if
we live long enough, we get tohave, and I know that you talked
(32:55):
about the significantmilestones I mean you got to
experience.
I can only imagine an intensejoy when you got to greet your
daughter in this world and youhad the shadow of your father's
passing that weighed on you soheavily.
(33:16):
And once again you're havingthis other experience with your
daughter and I appreciate whatit is to feel that fullness of
the experience, to have thatdepth.
A real loss can get a glimpseof the infinite and feel what it
(33:46):
is to to have that fullerexperience that most are kept
from, from really having.
Speaker 1 (33:54):
That's.
That's beautiful, dwight,because that's kind of what I'm
getting at, that it's not just,it's not about me.
And though we're individuals,we have autonomy, I think that
the collective body, if we alland it starts, it starts here,
(34:14):
right the individual self, thesoul, your intimate, your wife,
your partner, your spouse,whatever you know, who you love,
your children, your wife, yourpartner, your spouse, who you
love, your children, whatever,friends, and then it extends
itself out and it gets biggerand bigger and bigger.
I think it takes a village,right.
We don't embody what thatreally means.
We still segregate, we stillseparate, we still isolate, and
(34:37):
so we're always pushing thingsaway that we don't want to
experience or we find well, youknow, or status quo doesn't meet
the criteria, whatever that is,and all we're doing is
extending the pain and sufferingof humanity further.
Speaker 2 (34:56):
Yes, so if we just stopped the like, I don't know
(35:17):
like I feel what.
Speaker 1 (35:17):
I'm really trying to get to is a place where the
synergy is sacred, yes, and thatthrough identifying it and
being able to take hold of itand then following it, letting
it lead you, we have a chancefor a much deeper connection.
And then the life like so whenI was.
You know, like the tragedy, thebeauty and the horror of it all
(35:39):
.
Can you run to it?
Can you run into it and embraceit, or do you run from it?
And so what I've been learningis how to run to it.
Speaker 3 (35:50):
Yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (35:52):
And it's so painful, but when you do, there's another
side, and the other side ofthat is wholeness, and that
wholeness starts to make thewider scope of everything be
(36:17):
bound by love.
Love is the thread throughwhich everything should be about
.
Love is the thread throughwhich everything should be about
.
Speaker 2 (36:21):
Yes, and when you run toward it you actually have
that breakthrough and get to theother side much faster than you
would if you're running from it.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
You know that is it, isn't it, maddox?
I mean, think about it.
Sorry, I'm sniffing a little.
I'm basically speaking aboutmyself, so I'm not really
preaching here.
I'm speaking from experienceand what I've embraced, or tried
to formulate some sense to whatit is that I'm trying to live,
(36:58):
and still fucking it up at thesame time.
So there's no perfection here,it's just recognition.
No, we're humans.
Speaker 2 (37:05):
Yes, there is no perfection.
Speaker 1 (37:09):
We let ourselves down , we let other people down, but
I still feel like, if there's aconstant sense of awareness that
through all of that that westill find ourselves having that
deeper connection which Imentioned earlier, earlier is
the love, that thread of love,because ultimately it's not
(37:29):
about what you do, it's notabout what you have, it's about
the essence of who you are, andif you express what that is,
then everybody is a benefactor.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
You know, over the past few months that we've had
so many of these conversations Ihave come to realize and
believe that we as creativesbecause creatives infiltrate
every part of the earth, everyculture, every continent, every
country, we're everywhere.
And I have come to believe thatwe have the power to lead, to
(38:12):
guide humanity to that wholeness, to healing, to heal humanity.
I used to think it was coaches.
I'm not so sure I believe thatanymore.
Humanity I used to think it wascoaches.
I'm not so sure I believe thatanymore.
I think that I'm feeling it's,it's much, probably much more so
creatives.
Speaker 1 (38:33):
It's funny because I'm speaking with you, maddox
and Dwight, that um and our we,we've known each other for a
short period of time, but a lotof depth has been covered and
discovered at the same time,like it's kind of a you know, it
happened, you know, and Ibelieve in things unfolding for
a reason and there is fateplayed and encounters had
(39:03):
because of that.
So, that being said, we it'sfunny by doing this because
before I had been reluctant towant to do this talk Like it's
in here and I don't know if Ican get it out.
I don't know if I want to show,I don't want to be vulnerable,
I don't want to cry on you know,whatever.
But here's an example whichwe've just kind of had the
(39:25):
conversation about being a maker, the courage it takes and what
have you?
You still, when you finally runto it, as I mentioned, like
running into everything, likerun towards it, don't go away
from it, keep going right.
Like run towards it, don't goaway from it, keep going right,
(39:52):
what ends up happening isthere's an unfolding of the
things you never thought youwere capable of doing come into
the fold and then the fate thatyou might have you thought was
in store for you is completelyoff, because there's something
else coming out of you that wasmeant to be from the beginning,
but the timing of it is now.
So, talking, havingconversations through, from
(40:13):
writing, from reading, from allthese years of just kind of
hibernating, incubating, andthere's somewhat of an explosion
of this coming out of you thatI personally don't really know
how or why, but it's coming andI'm allowing it this time.
Speaker 2 (40:33):
I think I've just had an aha moment.
I think that our art, so oftenour making not just art, but
making is about our pain andabout our process, as we've
talked about.
And what if giving it a voicewhether it be a guest on a
(40:58):
podcast or in a circle of peoplearound a table, doesn't matter
where it is.
What if giving it a voice andsaying it out loud shakes
something loose and frees it upto a degree that now it more
powerfully shows up in your art?
Speaker 3 (41:15):
That's it.
Speaker 2 (41:16):
What if this is like the key to a deeper level of
creativity?
Because, truthfully, Ipersonally believe creativity is
not of me, it's coming throughme.
It's not of me.
Speaker 1 (41:30):
You're a vessel through which it comes.
Speaker 2 (41:32):
I'm a vessel, I'm a conduit, and the more I can open
the lines that free up thatpipeline, clear away any clogs
or anything that would preventit from flowing.
And having these conversationsand saying the hard things out
loud does just that.
It makes a better connection tothe divine.
Speaker 1 (42:00):
Essentially, that's really.
You could put that as a heading.
You know I speak of aspirationsto the divine, connections to
the divine.
The, the creative act, is ofthe divine.
But it's my personal beliefabsolutely, and my personal
(42:20):
experience but the essence ofthat is tainted oftentimes by
what we've kind of describedwe're selling out compromise got
to make a living, got to dothis, got to have this, got to
have, you know, and it's kind ofsocietal, just forcing you to
just figure out, like you know,how many people go to school at
(42:42):
18 years old and they become adoctor or a lawyer or whatever
you know that's going to pay themost money and I'm going to be,
and they're, you know, 30 yearsdown the road, just not happy.
And it's not about it's becausethey didn't listen to their
soul.
We were able to suppress that.
That's one thing about humanitythat still needs to be wakened
(43:03):
to is that too much of the worldpopulation is about suppressing
what they came here to do thegate ready to go and we have to
(43:24):
develop that and nurture that,and our job is to realize our
potential through the work thatwe put into developing those
kids.
But they come, they come,they're here.
Speaker 2 (43:29):
You know, you listed several things there, and what
came up for me was yes, andthere's at least one more, and
that is when we try to force ourcreativity.
Speaker 1 (43:41):
That's another thing.
Yeah, you can't do that either.
Speaker 2 (43:44):
You cannot.
You know it's trying to forceelectricity through the electric
outlet or force water throughthe tap in your kitchen sink.
It does not work that way, youknow yeah it's just as
inauthentic.
Well, and you know, for me,because I'm so clear that it
comes from source and that it'snot coming from me, I don't ever
(44:07):
experience creative block, butI don't try to force it either I
think that's that's.
Speaker 1 (44:15):
But that's part of being enlightened a bit there,
maddox, because when that comes,when you're able to do that,
the vessel through which itcomes out of right it's you and
you're responding to it insteadof forcing it.
So when you respond to what'scome, what is, the vessel is
allowed to express it witheffortless ability, like it just
(44:38):
comes out of you.
But we're fighting that andtrying to create it out of a
place of non-genuine,non-authentic or you know, come
on, I got to do this.
It becomes other and it'scontrived and it will speak to
the wrong.
It will speak in the wrongmanner.
It won't come across.
Speaker 2 (44:58):
I agree completely.
I mean what?
Hit me just this minute is.
Spirit is like a cat.
You know everything is on acat's own terms.
You don't get to pet them whenyou want to pet them.
You get to pet them when theywant you to pet them.
Speaker 1 (45:14):
And creativity and spirit work kind of the same way
you know, it's true, because,um, I think that's funny about
you know, animals that'sbeautiful to think about, like
the cats are very good examplebecause of the way in which they
(45:35):
behave and it is all on theirown time how they operate and so
, and so being be do havecorrect right, be do have.
So when I it's funny that you'dlike you we finally decided that
God can make an art, and thenhaving these kinds of
conversations do what we'vediscovered through the
(45:58):
conversation, which is connectand um, and put people more in
line with trying to aspire tothe divine, because in that
pursuit, I think we all findourselves, uh, connecting to
that thread of love more, whichis which I, like I said, I still
think that's the number onething out of all things, because
(46:18):
, if there is that there can be,know, it diminishes hate, it
cancels out so many of thenegative in life that it even
makes the negative parts of lifethat are difficult to bear more
beautiful, and that's the,that's love.
So running towards the thingsthat are we want to avoid.
(46:40):
So I even think about anxietyand stress and nerves, and all
this kind of angst is comingfrom the place of running away
from things as opposed torunning toward them.
And I think, if we can embodythe ability to say yes to
running towards it all, like youknow, jump in the cold water
(47:03):
when you're afraid to, or youknow, whatever it is moving
through, the outcomes areextraordinary, extraordinary.
Speaker 2 (47:14):
That's where you become other, you be, you leave
this planet, you're otherworldlybecause you're operating on a
divine level you know, I justwant to say I I think that your
wife and your daughter are arevery fortunate to have such a
heart-centered man in their lifethank you.
Speaker 1 (47:35):
Thank you, what a beautiful presence that you
bring to the conversation and Iand I think we can kind of round
up We'll talk about a littlebit of work kind of related to
what we've just kind of had,this conversation about Stories.
Right, the narrative, I think,when we like so, think of the
(48:00):
work I'm making like a landscapeis a portrait, you know
reclamation.
There's deep sensuality,humanness and emotion and that
comes from embracing what it islike like.
(48:21):
Like I said, I think we kind offound something today to me or
at least I have through it fromtalking with you guys about and
I I just it's.
It's that running towardssomething instead of running
away from it.
I really do, and then love beingthe thing that drives you,
because when you, when youreally have that, so then we
(48:41):
hold on to stories.
There's memories, so all thethings that we experience in our
lives.
Hopefully, what I'm doing inthe work that I make is giving
you an experience, creating amemory and making an imprint
that is sacred, that allows youto take that imprint and go out
and have that with you and carryit on in your life as well.
(49:03):
So that's connectedness, that'shuman connection and that's how
these things live on.
There's an eternal component tothe work.
Speaker 2 (49:12):
Rick.
Speaker 1 (49:13):
Archer oh my God, yes , kevin Patton, that is
timelessness, so that lineartime that we all operate.
You know, boom, boom, boom,boom boom.
Sometimes, if you're lucky inthis life that we live in that
linear construct of time,biology, age, we get to
experience everything all atonce.
(49:37):
We are everything all at onceall the time.
So everything that you haveever lived is in front of you,
it's with you, but instead ofcompartmentalizing it, it comes
in and you're with it, you holdit, you have it, and that's
pretty powerful, because thenyou are taking everything that
(50:01):
you've instead of trying to,like bury something or push
something to the side or defer.
Or because post-traumaticstress syndrome I never knew
what that was, because I alwaysthought it was something that
experienced something sohorrific.
It can be so subtle, yeah, itcan be so subtle that and way
more people experience than thanwe're.
(50:21):
There's so many people, yes,that are going through something
that hurt them and cause traumain their lives that they had to
defer, and it goes into theirbody, into their emotional
makeup, their psyche, and theyoperate.
They live their life throughthat prism.
So, until it's unleashed or letgo of, they don't get to embody
(50:46):
that all at once sensationbecause they have to
compartmentalize what it is inorder to function.
It's a kind of a managementthing, it's a mechanism, a
safety safety mechanism, if youwill yes, yeah, what I'm trying
(51:07):
to do through my work is get ridof that to be an extension of
something that allows you to nothave to have that, to not
compartmentalize, to experiencesomething wholly fully, in a
sacred manner that's holy, thattakes you and uplifts you and
puts you in a state that allowsfor that little moment.
(51:29):
I call it episodic reverie.
So cultivating presence in theepisodic reverie, the moment is
sacred, it's holy, and if we canget to the present state of our
, the present moment, thepresent moment, the present
moment, well, we don't have tobury the past either.
(51:52):
So, the past, future andpresent, we experience it all in
the present moment, whollyfully, embracingly, like we, we
we welcome it instead of well,let's put that over there, and
I'm going to put that over thereand I got this, and before you
know it, the shelves are full.
Speaker 2 (52:11):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (52:12):
And you're like fuck, I've got nowhere to put
anything anymore and I need tobe emptied out.
Speaker 2 (52:22):
I've been a very deeply feeling man my whole life
and I have never quite graspedwhy people are so afraid of
their feelings.
I mean, they'll tell me, youknow, so I can understand it
intellectually, but on thatinternal level, being such a
deep feeling person, but on thatinternal level being such a
(52:45):
deep feeling person, and I'mblessed because when I was a
little boy my dad had aconversation with me where he
normalized it, he made it okayfor me to feel my feelings and
he made it okay for me toexpress my emotions.
That's profound, and so I'vebeen able to do that my whole
life and it's always beenstrange to me why I I bump into
(53:06):
so few people on the street likeme.
It's and it's always kind ofmade me feel on the outside,
looking in and, interestinglyenough, that is that's.
Speaker 1 (53:20):
You have that experience and you're outside
looking in and the people thathave not had that experience are
outside looking in, and that isbecause, because of what their
experience is, so they it's thatdeferment and you're going why
I don't understand and see.
That's where we want to findthat thread that connects
everything back to what it wasoriginally meant to be, which
(53:42):
was love.
Creation is love.
Yes, I mean, think about it.
There's not really the actitself, even if it's coming from
a place that's angry.
Speaker 2 (53:55):
There is an inherently deep level of
sensation of love that is theimpetus to create it you know,
for dwight and I, our creativityshows up in creating
experiences for people yeah,shows up and having these
conversations and creating thisplatform for this podcast and
(54:18):
for makers and creators to comein here.
It shows up in our desire tocreate real community, not the
facsimile bullshit that we seeevery day, where people call it
community and it's really just agroup.
But we really had this visionfor real, live community.
Speaker 1 (54:37):
I hate the group thing, I'm sorry.
Speaker 2 (54:39):
And it's just what'd you say?
Speaker 1 (54:40):
The group thing, we label everything and then it
becomes contrary yes, I'm sorry,and just what you say, the
group thing I get.
Yeah, we label everything.
And then it becomes contrary.
Speaker 2 (54:47):
Yes, yes, but this is all.
Yes, every ounce of it isfilled with love.
Every email that I write isfilled with love and my desire
to have a positive impact, tomake a difference, and it's such
a part of us that we couldn't.
It's our identity.
(55:08):
I couldn't separate myself fromthis.
Speaker 1 (55:11):
That's right, I mean.
That's why I think havingsomething like this as a forum,
without being labeled,pigeonholed or contrived in any
way, that the openness for itand then the opportunity to
bring as many people to thatplatform as possible will do
(55:32):
what we're having a discussionabout today, which is, you know,
bring everything you have tothe table, but bring it with
love, vulnerability and thewillingness to take a risk,
because risks really are theyrisks or are they just being
authentic?
At the end of the day, if youreally call, you know the risk
(55:54):
is to let go of fear, take theleap right, the net will appear.
But, like I say, I call makinga painting a courageous act.
But ultimately, those thingsbecome those kinds of acts
because of the way society, ithas evolved, the evolution of
society.
Where, why, would you know, thecave painters in lascaux made
(56:19):
marks on a cave wall?
Was that a risk?
Or were they defining, werethey making a narrative about
something?
They had something impulsively,inherently in their being,
soulfully, to mark somethingdown, you know.
But as we've evolved, we'vemade certain things risks,
because that's outside of thebox.
Fuck that, thank you.
(56:42):
That's the problem.
Yes, we are outside of the box.
There was never a box to beginwith, but they fucking put us
there.
They want everyone in one.
Yeah, it allows them to controlthat yeah when you're outside of
that, you are free, and whenyou're free there's nothing that
can take away what that isanymore.
So then, if you create fromthat viewpoint, from that
(57:03):
feeling or the essence of free,there's only love there, so then
the box goes away.
But people really want to putyou back in there.
Speaker 2 (57:17):
Yes, but wait you know kind of have that filing
cabinet.
Speaker 1 (57:20):
Marks coloring outside the colors.
Well, yeah, because I don'treally see.
You know, I'm just respondingto who I am.
Speaker 2 (57:28):
Yeah, outside of the lines is where all the magic
happens.
Speaker 3 (57:31):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (57:32):
There would be no magic.
I mean alchemy I love that word.
The alchemy we all seek isthere, absolutely.
It's breathing.
It's breathing, it's alive,it's right within your grasp at
all times and, like I said, wejust need to move toward it.
Speaker 2 (57:51):
I think my takeaway after today and I don't usually
have takeaways at the end ofepisodes, but today I absolutely
do, because this has beenreally big for me.
Speaker 3 (58:03):
Thank, you absolutely do, because this is just this
has been really big for me.
Speaker 2 (58:05):
My takeaway is just when you know when our art is,
almost always it encapsulatesour, our pain, our trauma.
And when we can give our painand our trauma a voice and say
it out loud, we are opening upsomething to then pour it more
wholeheartedly into ourcreations I believe that 100, I
(58:26):
think it's.
Speaker 1 (58:28):
That's really wonderful.
Well put, maddox.
I I mean, like I said, I thinkthat richness and beauty, the
solitude that we we're, if wecan just find ways to the
solitude that we, if we can justfind ways to, like you said,
(58:51):
that vulnerability but at thesame time be authentic in the
unfolding of your own intuitiveresponses to things, I think
that's what being creative is,and if you can, the more you
practice what that is which is aresponse.
It's not, it's not a, it's nota checklist, it's, it's pure
alchemy.
But once you are in tune withthat, the, the paintings paint
(59:16):
themselves, the writing writesitself.
You know, everything starts tounfold the way it's supposed to
through you, because you'veallowed the channel to be open.
Speaker 2 (59:26):
It opens a big door.
I've said for some time nowvulnerability builds bridges,
opens doors and clears pathwaysin a manner that nothing else
can.
Speaker 1 (59:38):
And it opens the floodgates of possibility.
Yes, yes, yes, once.
Then, once you have the openingof that, when you, when you get
to discover what thatpossibility is, then the work
that is needed to have that berealized, the work that needs to
be put in the development, youknow, like, going to the gym,
(01:00:00):
I'm going to get, I'm working onthis, I'm working on that.
You know, like, going to thegym, I'm going to get, I'm
working on this, I'm working onthat.
You know, training, thetraining, the work, those will.
You'll discover them withouthaving to discover them, because
naturally flow, won't it?
Yes, yeah, because doing flowsnaturally from being you be do
have, because when we think,here's what happens and I think
(01:00:24):
this is a great way to kind ofit's it's like like the memories
that we have, that we'recreating on a daily basis memory
, memory, memory, experiences.
So I think if we could dismantlehierarchy, that's one thing
(01:00:49):
that is still left, that needsto be dealt with, in my opinion.
I think that the hierarchiesdecide things for others that
the others should be deciding,and I think sometimes that
inhibits someone that is on thecrossroads of becoming
extraordinary or not, becausethey haven't, they can't, just
(01:01:12):
because thinking.
So when you be, do have,thinking is an essential thing
to do.
Right, you have to, you cananalyze something, but there
comes a point in time where thethinking has to be left to the
side and you have to do, and ifyou don't do, you don't get a
result.
You can think all day long,your brain will think you did
(01:01:34):
something and there will benothing that has been
accomplished no, no product todemonstrate that yeah I can look
at them.
I can look at that canvas allday, for weeks and months and
even years and nothing.
And I go, but I fucking paintedthat.
You know, I got this paintinghere and I can't wait to execute
it.
Boy, all the ducks are in a row.
(01:01:56):
Look, I got this sketch, I gotthis, I got that, I got, I got
this, I got my.
Speaker 2 (01:02:00):
You know all the things that you need you gotta
dip the brush in the paint,don't you?
Speaker 1 (01:02:05):
you don't need anything, you need you.
You need to be the vessel.
So the one one thing I know forsure, then, this is what we get
kind of caught up into.
Da vinci said it, and I lovethis because I think if we
applied this, it's really withai and technology and things
that are unfolding here now westill should honor the creative
(01:02:30):
act as being a pure form andextension of the love that we
just described the thread, andso the supreme misfortune is
when theory outstripsperformance yeah well said.
Yes, creativity is theperformance.
(01:02:50):
Acting on it, that's yourperformance.
You can theorize all day long,we can.
We can formulize theories toher till we're not here anymore.
And what will that leave uswith?
a bunch of theories but if we do, if we perform, we have results
.
Those results lead to more andmore performances, more, more,
(01:03:14):
more.
So then be do, have becomesreal and it compounds itself,
and then everybody's be doingand having and oh, my goodness,
what's going on here?
Because we're not tidying upourselves with our thoughts and
keeping them inside this littlebook that no one can look at.
Yeah, so sharing is part ofthat.
(01:03:35):
So that's why I say it's acourageous act to be a creative,
because you have to share.
Speaker 2 (01:03:40):
You do.
I love this.
You're going to thrive.
You have to share.
Speaker 3 (01:03:45):
Well, and it's not.
You haven't really createdanything until you have shared.
Speaker 2 (01:03:51):
Yeah, even if you've made it.
If you're not sharing it, it'syeah.
Well said, dwight, I get it.
Speaker 1 (01:03:56):
Yeah, dwight, that's exactly so.
We all need to get off our deadasses and make Make.
Speaker 2 (01:04:03):
I agree, make Wow.
This has been one hell of apowerful conversation.
I feel like I have learned alot in this hour.
Thank you, that was a hope forboth of us all together.
And I felt the presence of thatspirit coming through all this
conversation, absolutely so.
(01:04:25):
One of the things we do beforewe wrap up an episode, mark, is
we do rapid fire questions forrapid fire answers.
Okay, are you answers?
Okay, are you ready?
Okay, here goes Question onewhat is a creative risk you're
glad you took?
Speaker 1 (01:04:47):
Saying yes to painting.
Speaker 2 (01:04:52):
Simple and accurate.
I love it.
Okay, how do you define acreative community?
Speaker 1 (01:05:06):
Good, a community that operates out of love.
Speaker 2 (01:05:15):
Short and sweet, but very, very effective.
Speaker 1 (01:05:19):
Very well said yes.
And last question and you guysbrought that out today because
the love thread really kind ofcame through to me really
strongly- it did to me too.
Speaker 2 (01:05:31):
I'm glad.
Thank you for calling that out.
Yes, thank you, and it's worthrepeating.
So our final question is what'sa failure that you've turned
into a success?
Speaker 1 (01:06:00):
grief, I've, I've.
I felt like I failed miserablyat processing what that meant to
me and I had a very bad run ofit, but I I reawakened and
overcame it, and that's what Icame up with running towards it
as opposed to running away fromit.
Speaker 2 (01:06:11):
Wow, yes, I would say that's what I came up with
running towards it as opposed torunning away from it.
Wow, yes, I would say that's asuccess, mark.
Speaker 1 (01:06:16):
But it's you know, it resonates deeply and it's like
I said, I love that Billy, butyou know, 50% of 50% it's just
with me now.
I carry it with me just likeeverything else.
But when you connect that withthe love thing again, it
empowers you, it makes you morepowerful as a human being on the
(01:06:38):
planet.
Speaker 2 (01:06:39):
Yes, I agree.
Speaker 1 (01:06:41):
It gives you empathy for others.
Speaker 2 (01:06:45):
And that oozes out of you, by the way.
Yes, you are very definitely avery kind and gentle soul.
Speaker 1 (01:06:53):
Thank you, I mean, that's I just I.
My hope is that we allespecially I think that's kind
of been coming up runningalongside me like that we all,
we just need it.
We need it.
And I think when I said God,just fuck all of the steroids,
fuck everything except let'sjust all get on board with being
kind to each other, loving eachother and it's just old, you
(01:07:16):
know old adage, right, butpractice it.
A movement Simplifies so manythings because then everyone has
the same goal.
Speaker 2 (01:07:26):
Yep, I'm with you there.
I'm on board.
Speaker 1 (01:07:30):
Yeah, you guys are on board.
That's why I said yes to dothis.
I'm on board.
Yeah, you guys are on board.
That's why I said yes to dothis Mark.
Speaker 2 (01:07:33):
this has been wonderful.
Thank you so much for all ofthe truth and all of the
authenticity and vulnerabilitythat you brought to today's
conversation.
Speaker 1 (01:07:45):
Yeah, it's been great .
You guys are wonderful.
I thoroughly enjoyed speakingwith you and it's a credit to
you too, I feel I feel free, soit's, it was a pleasure.
Speaker 2 (01:07:57):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (01:08:01):
Thank you, Maddox Honor.
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