September 29, 2025 • 52 mins
From the confines of his grandmother's office—the very space where his creativity was first nurtured—Douglas Lewis takes us on a transformative journey from bullied youth to fashion revolutionary. Douglas's story begins with childhood memories of assembling photo albums alongside his grandmother, absorbing fashion history that would later become his creative foundation.
When thrust from the strict uniformity of private Christian school into public education, Douglas faced merciless bullying for not conforming to early 2000s Black male fashion norms. Rather than shrinking, he made a pivotal choice: "I'm going to tap into this difference." This decision marked the beginning of his fashion awakening, drawing inspiration from thrift stores, New York trips, and global trends that set him apart in his small Southern town.
What emerges throughout our conversation is how fashion served as both armor and expression for Douglas—a "peacocking" that wasn't always welcomed but ultimately became his superpower. Like fashion icons Diana Vreeland and the fictional Cruella, Douglas transformed childhood teasing into creative fuel that propelled him toward internships, New York Fashion Week, and eventually working at Bergdorf Goodman.
The most compelling revelation comes as Douglas acknowledges the disconnect between his polished professional persona and his vibrant authentic self. Appearing adorned with chunky turquoise jewelry and multiple rings, he represents the creative spirit so often hidden behind "serious" professional facades. His journey toward self-acceptance—particularly navigating queerness in the South—offers profound wisdom for anyone struggling to express their true creative identity.
Douglas's recognition that "isolation is self-imposed" serves as both a powerful closing insight and a call to action. By embracing vulnerability and authenticity, we not only liberate ourselves but create magnetic connections with the people who truly appreciate our unique creative vision. Connect with Douglas on social media to follow his continuing journey of creative self-expression and mentorship of emerging fashion talent.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
So here's the big question of the day In your
current creative life what isthe biggest pain point, that
challenge that, if it weresolved, would be a game changer
for you, real time, right now.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
So the biggest challenge, like the biggest pain
point right now is pushing pastthat like isolation and pushing
past that like isolation andpushing past.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
Hey, there it's Maddox and Dwight, the
Connections and Community guys.
This is an episode of For theLove of Creatives podcast and
today we're welcoming our guest,Douglas Lewis.
Welcome, Douglas.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Thank you for this.
Happy to be here with you allagain.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
So just for a little backstory for our listeners,
douglas was actually a guest onmy previous podcast, which was
the Authentic Gay man podcast,and we hadn't talked in well
probably two or two and a halfyears since we had recorded that
episode.
And out of the blue, I just gotan email a few weeks ago from
(01:42):
Douglas and we connected and itwas such a great reunion and so
we asked him to be on thispodcast and here he is.
So tell the audience a littlebit about who you are and what
you're about.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
Okay, so I am a creative storyteller, writer,
with a history in editorialfashion, mainly with styling,
visual merchandising, all ofthose creative display things,
collecting magazines, and myjourney has pivoted from, I
(02:35):
guess, wanting to be an editorto becoming more of an educator.
And I was deeply rooted in thefashion world and went to New
York, came back and it was ahuge, huge journey, but we have
survived the chiffon trenches oflife and we are aimed to use
(03:03):
all of the lessons and all ofthe things that have occurred to
enlighten the next generationand beyond.
So we're at a good place.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
Well, and even as you step into teaching and moving a
little bit away from fashion,you are quite the fashionista.
I covet some of your jewelry.
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
So let's start off.
Let's go back to the verybeginning, at that wee age that
(03:34):
you first had an inkling of,that you were drawn to things
creative, and how that showed up, how that first glimmer of
creativity, what was it?
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Oh, it's so crazy because I'm in my grandmother's
office and it is crazy that youeven asked that at this time,
because this is the place whereso much of my creativity was
born, in this exact room, rightnow, and how old were you at
(04:14):
that point?
Oh, my God, I think I was.
It's been going on for years, Imean since I was about five.
For years, I mean since I wasabout five, six, seven I had
always been around this fabulouswoman and just working as her
(04:36):
assistant whether that wasrunning errands, going to the
Ralph Lauren outlet but our mainthing was archiving and putting
together these photo albums andlooking through all of her, all
of the fashion history of myfamily and looking at all of the
(04:59):
just.
That was our flow, assemblingphoto albums and then just doing
stationary and doing all thekinds of arts and crafts
projects in her office, becauseshe um, is a, is an educator,
and so this is the foundation,really, of photo albums did she
(05:20):
have to influence it in that,that in you, or did you just
naturally see her doing it andwant to be part of it?
She.
Well, I was always very closewith her and then, I think, just
as a result of proximity, I wasjust always around her and
doing those things.
(05:40):
So I think it was a mix of both.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
What a really beautiful beginning.
You know, and grandma's stillwith you, isn't she?
Speaker 2 (05:52):
She is, she is, she's in the next town, she's in
Rocky Mount, 45 minutes away,but she's hanging in there.
She's a strong, strong ladyyeah, that's beautiful.
Speaker 3 (06:11):
So, uh, dwight, you take over for a minute.
You got a good question fordouglas.
Yeah, I, I couldn't help butkind of feel that there was
something more about thatjourney, just as you were
describing what it was like towork in the fashion world and I
could almost detect a little bitof a little bit of history.
So it was like to work in thefashion world and I could almost
detect a little bit of a littlebit of history.
So it's like there were somefeelings that were simmering
(06:32):
below the surface.
Would you mind sharing a littlebit with us about what's going
on there?
Speaker 2 (06:38):
As far as the journey in fashion.
Empowering minds want to knowokay, so I basically I started
with my grandmother, um, and itjust kind of matriculated into
(06:59):
school, um, and basically it'svery interesting because I went
to a private Christian academy,so that was the very beginning.
So we had to wear very, verystrict uniforms.
So we had white shirt, whitehat to be a white collared shirt
(07:24):
, blue, black, khaki trousers.
We rarely had dress out days,so on occasion we could dress
out on a Friday.
And basically I remember at thattime really my first
introduction to fashion was nothappy because I was like I'm so
restricted and I hate thisuniform and there was so much
(07:48):
restriction.
But I think throughout as Imatriculated through grade
school and when I transitionedfrom private school to public
school, there was a transitionthere which was kind of rooted
in some trauma, because Iremember I never was able to.
(08:10):
You know, I was fresh fromprivate school so I could not
wear any of the like things thatwere popular at the time in the
early 2000s for Black men.
You know, because in the early2000s and Black men there was
this chain hang low, you knowthat, that sagging pants,
culture, all of that, and andthe long t-shirts and the Air
(08:33):
Force ones.
For some reason my generationyou had to have fresh pair of
Air Force ones and I did nothave.
I couldn't afford it, Icouldn't afford it, I couldn't
afford it.
And so I remember being bullied,partially for being queer,
partially for not fitting in,and I remember I couldn't really
(08:53):
.
I was kind of stuck between arock and a hard place because my
parents, my grandmother, waslike no, you are not sagging
your pants, and I was like youwill be.
You cannot do that.
And then, you know, not reallyable to fit in with the people
in school.
So I was bullied like viciouslyin school and I remember,
throughout that process, youknow, I was like I'm going to
(09:17):
show you, I'm going to tap intothis difference.
I'm going to tap into notfitting in Because I remember at
one point I was not you know,obviously was upset about being
bullied and then I just began tolike it and I began to start to
express myself in differentways, via the thrift store,
(09:39):
going to New York trips, to NewYork trips, looking online at
other people around the worldand seeing what they were
wearing, wearing skinny jeans,and all of that was very
different and it was notnecessarily accepted in my
hometown.
And so I remember at that pointI could use fashion and I
(10:04):
started to really fall in lovewith clothing as a form of
self-expression, so that I couldstand out and, you know, really
tap into the fact that I didn'tlook like everybody else.
Then I became obsessed and I hadthis like Cruella de Vil moment
, do tell it's Cruella de Vil,because you know the movie
Cruella.
You know Cruella to me, becauseyou know the movie Cruella, you
(10:25):
know Cruella, the backstory.
She you know she was teased andbullied and then she began to
become this like fashion personof like I'm going to show you.
And the same thing is true forum, one of my favorite fashion
icons, diana Vreeland, who wasthe editor-in-chief of Vogue and
fashion editor of Harper'sBazaar.
She was teased and then shewrote in her journal and she
(10:48):
said that she's going to becomethe greatest, she's going to
become this larger than lifefigure in fashion and she's
going to have the best clothes.
And then she became DianaVreeland and she's one of the
most legendary people in thefashion industry.
And I remember I was inspired byher, but I guess through a
process of collecting magazines,papering my walls with
(11:16):
editorial spreads from V-ManMagazine, v Magazine, gq,
british GQ all of thesedifferent magazines making this
world of creativity come alive.
That was how I got it began.
And then I just had internshipswith other fabulous people,
started going to New YorkFashion Week around 2016,
(11:41):
interned a lot, lot, and thenstarted to just keep going back
and forth to New York FashionWeek and doing research.
And then, obviously, I went toNew York and lived and worked at
Bergdorf Goodman and met someincredible people there, so it's
(12:04):
been a journey for sure.
Speaker 3 (12:06):
So what I'm hearing you share is that when you went
through that really stark, youknow very much, everyone had to
be the same, they had to wearuniforms, that world of private
school then kind of having theshock of making that transition
to public school where you weremercilessly bullied and you had
(12:29):
to hold on to a set of standardsthat you could not conform to
with your peers in public schooland it clashed with everything
that was expected of you at homeand from from that was forged
something that would become yoursuperpower.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
Yeah, yes.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
Yeah, I'm languaging it probably a little bit
differently.
I saw something very similar inthat you, in all of the
bullying, the fashion wasactually a safety defense
mechanism that turned into agreat love and passion.
Who knew that?
(13:12):
Who saw that coming Right?
Speaker 2 (13:15):
Yes, yes, it is.
Yes, fashion is.
Fashion is instant language.
It's a way to express yourself.
Passion is instant language.
It's a way to express yourself,and that's why I don't
understand why it's socontroversial at times, because
it truly is an external displayof what is on the inside.
(13:43):
So if you like to wear red poloshirts, that means you're just
a fiery, passionate person, youknow, and there's nothing wrong
with that.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
So nothing at all.
You know, douglas, as a personwho was also bullied a lot in
school, and I wish I had a storylike yours.
I didn't have anything that youknow.
Counterbalanced that when youstepped off into you know what.
I'm going to use this as mypower rather than my weakness.
(14:12):
I'm going to, instead of tryingto fit in, I'm going to stand
out.
I'm going to do fashion.
I'm going to do my own thing.
How did all those bulliesrespond to that?
Did it push them away or didthe bullying get worse?
Speaker 2 (14:29):
Probably got worse at a point.
I remember it was just likepeacocking.
I'm sorry for this, but there'slike a peacocking moment that
happened and it was not.
It was not always met withpositivity, and that was
(14:49):
internally and externally.
It was not always, if we'rebeing honest, you know it was
not always met with positivity.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
I lived in a small town through.
Well, I didn't leave that smalltown until I was 29 years old
and we're talking, you know,early 70s.
There was a student, very talland slender, probably a little
taller than me, a little moreslender than me Actually.
(15:22):
I look back now and he was justa gorgeous black man.
He was gay, gay.
Gay had a huge afro and heplayed it to the hilt.
He didn't care what anybodythought.
He wore the strongest vanillacologne I have ever smelled in
(15:44):
my life.
The fragrance entered the roombefore he did.
It was so strong.
But he really did his own thing.
He didn't care what anybodythought and for the most part
they would make nasty commentsand things, but they didn't
(16:04):
bother him too much.
He just really kind of pulledoff an attitude that in some
regard said don't fuck with me.
I wish that he'd been more ofan inspiration.
I was afraid to go all out likethat.
(16:25):
I stayed very quiet, subduedand tried to become invisible.
But I love your story in that,in spite of the fact that you
were really exploring your owncreativity and your own
expression of that creativitythrough fashion, and they
(16:45):
bullied you, continued to bullyyou and the whole peacocking
thing and your own expression ofthat creativity through fashion
.
And they bullied you, continuedto bully you and the whole
peacocking thing.
You didn't give it up.
You hung tight, didn't you?
I did, I did, wow, you know,just want to.
You know it's not always aboutbullying, but, as creatives,
we're confronted every day withthe need to be courageous, the
(17:09):
need to put ourselves out there,the need to put our creations
out there, whether it's fashionor art, dance, writing, it
doesn't matter what it is.
It's really really hard to putit out there, because there's
all kinds of forms of bullying.
(17:29):
Criticism is a form of bullyingPeople making fun of you on
social media, and so I find thisparticular part and I know
there's a lot more, but I feelthis particular part of your
story is very inspiring to me,and I hope it is to our
listeners, because it is ametaphor for all the ways that
(17:54):
we, as creatives, need to standin who we are, stand in what our
creation is, believe in ourcreation, put our creation out
there, but more than that, putourselves out there, because
putting your creation out thereisn't enough.
What's your take on that?
What's your take on that?
(18:16):
Because we see a lot of peopleon social media that plaster
their art all over everything,but they're nowhere to be seen.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
Wow, you just I am guilty of that.
Actually, that is spot on andI've been doing some deep
internal pattern recognition onthat.
And why was it so hard for meto express myself and put myself
(18:48):
out there?
Because I think that is whatfashion is wearing the clothes,
looking towards moreauthenticity, and they want to
see, they want to connect with ahuman being more than anything,
(19:11):
and I think you have to be verystrong to do that.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
I'm going to step out a little bit.
I'm going to take a little bitof a risk here.
I'm going to step out a littlebit.
I'm going to take a little bitof a risk here.
You and I are connected onLinkedIn.
You sent me a connection linkand I connected and I went in
and really looked in detail atyour LinkedIn profile.
Okay, and here's what Iobserved, and I'm sharing this
(19:42):
with you because I really think,once again, this is a metaphor.
There's something in this foreverybody out there.
I've had an opportunity to havemultiple very, very personal and
deep conversations with you andyou have been open and shown up
extremely authentically in mypresence.
I know who's in there and I'vegot a pretty good idea what he's
(20:08):
about.
What I noticed on LinkedIn wasyou're a very warm, friendly
person.
You have bright eyes and agreat smile and although the
photo you posted is a strikingphoto, there's no smile.
Photo you posted is a strikingphoto.
(20:29):
It there's no smile.
I don't it there's.
It's like okay, while this is agreat photo, it is not the
essence of who douglas is to me.
Speaker 3 (20:35):
Yeah, yeah, I, I remember we, we did the review
together there.
I would change out the photobecause it's also presenting you
with a closed posture.
Yeah, I think your.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
Your hands are crossed, if I'm like, or arms
are crossed, if I'm not mistaken.
The other thing I noticed wasin all of the about and all the
information, you listedeverything you've ever done.
Some of it's quite impressive.
Yeah, a lot of it's quiteimpressive, but you didn't tell
(21:07):
anybody who you are, and that'sthe most important part so, for
anyone listening, this issomething that we talked about.
Speaker 3 (21:19):
well, we mentioned in episode 35 with Kevin
Whitehurst, where Maddox it wasyou that made the point that or
you summed up what he said, aspeople aren't buying the art,
they're buying you.
(21:39):
The art just happens to comewith it.
Speaker 1 (21:42):
Yes, and that translates out to whatever
creativity you do.
It doesn't matter whetheryou're an architect or a dancer.
Now, dancers, of course, thenature of what they do, they
have to be out there in front,and that just in this moment.
(22:02):
I'm going aha, what an ahamoment, because the rest of the
creatives community needs totake some inspiration and a page
out of the book of dancers wayto put your art out there
(22:25):
without putting yourself outthere.
When you are a dancer on thatstage, performing in front of
everyone, it couldn't be muchmore out there than that.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
That's so crazy that you said that, because right
before this podcast, I didn'tmean to interrupt you.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
I'm sorry, but I was listening to Josephine Baker and
Josephine Baker is the epitomeof putting yourself out there, I
mean, but I just wanted to goahead and let you put that in
there, no, I think it's greatand I think this is an amazing
conversation and it just seguedin naturally, Like I didn't have
(23:02):
anything like this, planned tosay any of this, but it's just
unfolded organically and it'ssuch a beautiful conversation to
have.
How does it land for you what Ijust shared with you about you
and the way you're presentingyourself?
Speaker 2 (23:20):
It's a breakthrough.
It's a breakthrough to to hearthat and I receive that.
I receive that because I thinkit coincides with a lot of
different, a lot of the internalshadow work that I've been
doing this past year and a halfthat I've been here, because I'm
realizing that there has been akind of history of of of
(23:44):
shrinking myself so that I canbe seen as this serious fashion
person.
I'm really not.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
The photo was very polished and professional and it
lacked the essence of whoDouglas is.
Douglas is outrageous For thoseof you that aren't watching a
video and listening auditorily.
He's got this huge.
He's got a fun T-shirt on justa T-shirt that says Lewis family
(24:15):
.
I can't read below that to seewhat it says.
The rest of it 2000.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
We like to call carolina.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
Home got this really big, chunky turquoise necklace.
That's almost a choker notquite as a choker, but it's just
covered in turquoise chunky,got bracelets all up and down.
Both arms rings on some what?
Some of the fingers have asmany as three rings on them,
right, yes, yes, you have thisoutrageous way of expressing
(24:44):
yourself and it fits you, yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:49):
It fits you, Douglas.
I just want to give a shout out.
The necklace is a welcomepattern.
Interrupt, Like you're notgoing to run into yourself on
the street.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
No, you're not, but that's what people need to see.
That's how you're.
You know, I get that.
We have this thing that we haveto show up professionally when
we're looking to get jobs andand maybe there's a way to kind
of weave a little bit of that inthere, because that polish,
that black outfit with thelittle bit of gold, trim the
(25:22):
glasses, the whole bit.
That is a part of who you are,but it's not the whole of who
you are and it's not even thebiggest part of who you are.
I'm thinking now I'm limited inmy exposure to you, but I'm
going to put a guess out thereand say the more outrageous part
(25:42):
of you is the bigger percentageof you.
And yes, we all have thosemoments when we need to step
into something, that look incertain arenas where we need to
look a little more polished anda little more professional, and
that's okay.
We wear different hats indifferent scenarios.
But even as long as we realizethat they're a role we're
(26:02):
playing, for that and they'renot like who we really are, then
it's OK to to play thosedifferent roles.
Speaker 3 (26:12):
Even when you're wearing the hat, you still want
to come through.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
That's going to be the difference between someone
being drawn to what it is thatyou have to offer and, you know,
just thinking that you're justmore of the same.
Yeah, yeah, you know, itdoesn't matter where I am or
what I'm wearing.
I let my quirky personalityshine through.
I'm always making some wise-ass, crackpot comment that is
making people turn their headsor laugh.
(26:45):
I kind of like pushing theenvelope a little bit, getting
people to lighten up.
Or I'll say something that'sreally deep and profound, or
I'll share something really likepretty personal and people are
like you know, but it breaks theice.
And then everybody I givepermission, the rest of the
people sitting around me nowthey've got permission to show
(27:06):
the warts on their ass too.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
Right, right, right, because we all have them we all
have them, yes.
Speaker 3 (27:15):
And you shouldn't be afraid to let your freak flag
fly.
I remember an occasion.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
Boy, that's a tang-tangler.
Speaker 3 (27:22):
Where Maddox and I went for a night on the town.
We were just doing something alittle bit different.
So we went to a place far northof Dallas.
We went to go have an eveningout on the Denton Square where
it's a college town, so they'reused to people kind of showing
their flair a little bit.
But we went to a little sleepyrestaurant and you were wearing
(27:46):
wide-legged, flared pants.
I had big, wide-legged pants on.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
I think I had a hat.
I mean I had like gone for thecreative, the very, let's say, I
would not have bumped intomyself on the street.
And from the moment we steppedout of the car people on the
street were stopping me to goand love your outfit oh my God,
(28:13):
those pants are amazing.
Or when we walked into therestaurant, the waitstaff, they
were not busy at all.
We were there early, there washardly anybody in there and the
waitstaff is all just standingaround and we walk up and
everybody's like, wow, cooloutfits guys.
And that's kind of the way weroll.
We just express ourselves.
I don't wear what I think otherpeople are going to like.
(28:34):
I wear what I want to wear andwhat I like, and I don't give a
shit what anybody else thinks.
I love that you know it'sbrilliant to get to a point in
life where you just don't haveany more fucks to give.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
Right, exactly.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
Now there's still a few areas where I may have a
little bit of fucks to give.
But you know, in everyday lifeI'm always amazed and this is
maybe a little bit off topic butit's relevant I'm always amazed
at how many people, when out inpublic, they care about what
total strangers think.
(29:13):
I am completely the opposite,like I care about what my loved
ones think, but people I don'tknow couldn't give a rat's ass
never going to see them againprobably.
You know, dwight and I walk ona walking trail here every
(29:34):
morning and sometimes it'sconvenient where we get to walk
together, mostly on weekends,because our day schedules are a
bit different.
We go separately on weekdays.
He's early, then I'm a littlebit later, but sometimes I get
there before he's off the trailand we will pass each other on
the trail different.
We go separately on weekdays.
He's early, then I'm a littlebit later, but sometimes I get
there before he's off the trailand we will pass each other on
the trail and he stops and givesme this big wet kiss right on
the middle of the trail and thenwe embrace in a hug and you
(29:56):
know we really don't care whatothers think.
You know we really don't carewhat others think.
Speaker 2 (30:05):
Yeah, thank you for sharing that.
I love that, thank you.
But it's, you know, sometimesit's just necessary to in order
for you to fully like healsomething or any like shame is.
(30:25):
Sometimes it's just necessary,and I'm not blaming anyone, but
I'm saying it's necessary tokind of get down to the root of
it so that you can fully heal.
And that's why that's whereI've kind of been, you know,
cause being in the South has notjust not been the the most
accepting of places for um queercreativity, you know out loud,
(30:51):
and I think I've inherited somuch of that like kind of
internalized, like shame and um,that's probably another, and
then in the south you add to itand it's just another layer.
Speaker 3 (31:04):
Hold on, hold on.
Let me draw you to an icon ofthe South, a black icon of the
South, dare I say a black queericon of the South.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (31:18):
You need to erect an altar to Little Richard.
Oh yes, Come on now.
Speaker 1 (31:27):
Wow, you know, Douglas, I love, I want to go
down the rabbit hole.
I want to.
I'd love to take a few minutesand dive deep on on this journey
to heal, Because there are so.
I mean.
The creatives community isfilled with every color of skin,
(31:48):
every race, and this Souththing is not just for blacks,
it's for anybody that's notwhite, Right right right, you
know.
And then there's a hugepercentage of the creatives
community that is gay, male andfemale, and so I think that this
is a worthwhile conversation.
I'd love to hear more aboutthis healing journey and how
(32:11):
you're navigating it and whatstage you're in.
Are you closer to the beginningof the healing process?
Are you closer to the end ofthe healing process?
Let's just go into that.
I'd love to know more.
Speaker 2 (32:25):
Okay, well, I think first, like healing is obviously
is a never ending battle, but Ithink too I'm about 50% there,
50 to 75% there of gettingtowards a place of full
(32:49):
self-acceptance and I think thathalf the battle was coming back
home.
It's easy for me to go to NewYork and be footloose and fancy
free and wear skirts and wear,you know, dresses everywhere and
pearls, but you know it'sdifficult when you're home and
(33:13):
you're kind of surrounded bythose who may or may not, you
know, accept you know you, orturn up their faces, or so it's
been a deeply grounding processfor me to do that.
But throughout the process ofcoming back to North Carolina
and really looking back at myphotos of an inner child and
(33:37):
it's crazy because inner child,that is the beginning, I think
that is the ultimate, innerchild healing is the ultimate,
that inner child creativehealing.
And I think for so long I hadthis gothic period and it's
interesting how we'recorrelating healing internally
to clothes.
But I had this gothic period ofall black and trying to be
(33:59):
serious and that you, you know,closed off persona.
And then I looked at some of mypictures when I was five years
old and I was looking at mypictures and I was wearing
orange.
You know, I was wearing oranget-shirts and I was having a good
time and just being creative.
And and that's where I'm I'mreturning to is this just inner,
(34:24):
inner child creativity of likejust do it you don't have.
It doesn't have to be supplyand demand, it doesn't have to
be everything, doesn't have tobe the better business Bureau,
you know.
Speaker 3 (34:38):
You know, and as I and as I hear you relate, that
I'm I'm reconciling what it wasthat Maddox just shared about
how he doesn't care what thepeople on the outside think.
It's the people close to him,and I'm hearing how you're
having to confront the peoplethat are close to you, the
people that do have an outsizedimpact on how you feel, right,
(34:59):
right, and it sounds like that'skind of the last barrier for
you, like there's a lot of hurtthere.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
Well, and it also it is worth saying that.
You know, in New York City it'sso acceptable to be just
dressed any way you want todress and weird that it's not a
safety issue there.
But when you go back into theSouth South in North Carolina,
wearing skirts could be a deathsentence, you know.
(35:29):
So you know we have to balance.
What do we?
You know, it's not like youhave to try to suddenly fit in
and look like everybody else,but you may have to tone it down
just for the sake of your ownphysical safety, health and
well-being, and I hate that wehave to do that.
(35:49):
And all the more reason to getthe hell out of Dodge and move
to someplace where you can fullybe yourself.
I left that small town at age29 where I was in the closet.
I had been acknowledged tomyself that I was gay, to my
family, to my friends when I wasabout 24.
And I didn't leave my hometownuntil I was 29.
(36:10):
And the first thing I did whenI arrived in Austin, texas, was
I just told the whole fuckingworld I am one big old, huge fag
.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
You know I am not living in the closet anymore.
If you got a problem with who Iam, there is the door.
Do not let it hit you on theass on the way out.
Speaker 2 (36:30):
Right, right, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
I stopped apologizing and stopped caring.
I just you know, acceptance forwho we are is an inside job.
I would have never guessed thisuntil I experienced it
firsthand.
And this isn't just I'm goingto say right here this isn't
(36:54):
just about gay.
It's about anything that weneed to be accepted for, whether
it's the color of our skin orsome different language that we
speak or it's a disability, itdoesn't matter what it is.
When we accept ourselves inhere, the rest of the world's
accept us out here for the mostpart.
(37:14):
I've gone through this multipletimes.
When I finally got completelycomfortable with being gay gay I
stopped experiencing anyhomophobic activity whatsoever.
At one point I'd worn contactlenses for many, many years.
I came into the world blind andI started wearing glasses at
(37:35):
age five and they were thickCoke bottle bottoms and I wore
contact lenses from the time Igraduated from high school until
I was in my mid-upper 30s maybe.
And then one day my eyes saidsorry, we're done, we're not,
you do not put those plasticthings in us anymore, you know.
And I had to go back to glassesand it was a dark day because I
(37:56):
didn't feel attractive inglasses.
I had been teased all my life.
It had all this trauma likeballed up in it.
And there was this moment when II hate glasses, I hate glasses,
I hate glasses, I don't likethe way I look in glasses, I
don't, I don't feel attractive,all this bullshit.
(38:17):
And I had to look in the mirrorand tell myself, dude, you do
not have an option, you'relegally blind, you have to wear
glasses and you need to get overit, right, right.
And I said, maddox, you need tolearn to love yourself with
glasses.
I did the same thing with.
You need to love yourself as agay man.
(38:39):
And so I just started tellingmyself that I'd look in the
mirror and tell myself how muchI loved myself in glasses.
Those glasses look amazing onyou.
It was a very short period oftime where complete strangers on
the street would stop me andsay cool glasses, those look
amazing on you.
Speaker 2 (38:58):
Right, right, I still , you can ask Dwight decades
later.
Speaker 1 (39:03):
I mean, I was 35-ish then.
Now I'm damn near 70.
And people every day stop me onthe street and say great
glasses, those look amazing onyou.
And it was an attitude shiftthat I had when we can love
ourselves because we're aparaplegic in spite of the fact
(39:24):
that we're a paraplegic, if wecan love ourselves because we
have dark skin the whole rest ofthe world's going to follow
suit.
I've experienced it over andover again in my own life and
it's been consistent, Right,right.
Speaker 3 (39:42):
I want to encourage you to extend that even further.
Speaker 2 (39:56):
I want to encourage you to extend that even further.
Speaker 3 (39:57):
Like what you were saying before, or you implied
that you were dealing with thatfinal frontier of acceptance and
that's those loved ones aroundyou hard.
The first step is the hardeston this.
But if, if you embody trulyloving and accepting yourself
and embracing all that makes youwho you are, you're going to
experience that that judgment,that's a reflex, that's that's
(40:22):
because of their upbringing,that's because that's what they
know.
But you are going to shine likea beacon for them and you're
going to educate them and you'regoing to show them that all the
world is not as they have beentaught that it is.
Speaker 1 (40:41):
He's speaking the truth there.
You know, I came out at a timethat was much different than
this.
I came out in 1981 in a smallTexas town.
Now was it a jolt.
Did my family have to adjust?
It was a period of time of kindof like adjustment, but every
single family member, fromgrandparents to parents, to
(41:04):
nieces, to nephews, to brothers,sisters, every person in my
family fully accepted me.
Speaker 2 (41:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:15):
And I have to believe that's because you know I was
doing my work to accept myself.
Speaker 3 (41:22):
I would like to offer you a challenge to move that
scale of where you are and thatself-acceptance beyond that
halfway point.
And it's a pretty simplechallenge on LinkedIn.
And how do you think he wouldfeel about displaying that warm
(41:56):
and open person that we knowthat you are?
And allowing others to see it.
Speaker 2 (42:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:04):
Yeah, they haven't had a chance to actually see who
you are and, you know, willthere be some people that will
be repelled.
Oh, hell, yes, right, right,right.
Those aren't your people, right?
You know?
We talked about this before.
Vulnerability and authenticityare polarizers.
They send the naysayers, theysend the people that you
(42:26):
wouldn't want to have in yourlife anyway.
They send those people away andit draws the people in that are
the right people for you, thepeople that want to come sit
right beside you because theyappreciate who you are, just as
you are Right.
Speaker 3 (42:43):
Right yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:46):
You've heard the term like a moth to flame.
Speaker 2 (42:50):
Like Janet Jackson, like a moth to flame.
Yes, yes, yeah, I hear youthough.
I hear you, I hear you.
But I'm going to break throughnow because I'm realizing, you
know, it's not my responsibilityto monitor how I'm seeing, you
(43:18):
know, it's my responsibility tojust be exactly as I am, you
know, and for and for a longtime, that was difficult for me
to fully lean into that.
But I think through, like Isaid, deep shadow work.
I'm coming up on a breakthroughbecause and I have started, you
(43:40):
know I have I literally wastransformed.
I, like y'all, shot a thousandvolts of electric joy inside of
me from that last interviewbecause I broke down.
It was some stuff that neededto be released.
I was crying, you know andy'all, y'all have been.
you snatched me, Y'all have beensnatching me bald.
You see, I don't have no hair.
(44:02):
You see my edges.
Speaker 1 (44:05):
Yeah, for those that can't see, he has a shaved head.
So we done, snatched him bald.
Speaker 2 (44:10):
You snatched me bald.
You snatched me bald, but youknow it was necessary and I
started, you know, posted onTikTok.
But yeah, I'm in a good place.
I'm in a good place.
Speaker 1 (44:22):
So thank you, I want to and thank you for that and
place.
So so I want to, I and thankyou for that, I and I, and, and
I just want to say I am so proudof you.
I'm so proud of you.
Thank you so much.
You know I'm probably oldenough to be your grandmother or
grandfather and I'm just, uh,yeah, proud.
I want to shift gears a littlebit and hear a little bit about
(44:42):
your take on community andcreativity and how community
plays a role and and how maybeit was in new york and how maybe
it's different in northcarolina okay, so this is.
Speaker 2 (44:57):
I'm actually excited to talk about this because it's
something that has set me free,like with community.
I would say it's.
It's the tonic to connectionand it's a.
It's something that keeps you,you alive, I would say, because,
(45:32):
in the midst of all of thatshame and all of the people who
are saying like, oh, you shoulddo something else, what have you
achieved in fashion?
Or all of that projectionthroughout the past year and a
half of like you should dosomething else, and all of that
that I was receiving, that was atonic for me.
(45:54):
I was like you know what, themore y'all try to tear me down,
I'm going to lift as many otherpeople up, tonic of my, of what
I'm doing now, which is istrying to use my experiences in
the fashion industry and helpingthe next generation to um, to
be to get their foot in the door.
(46:14):
And I know that was a.
I know that's a lot and it'skind of a run on, but there
there's a guy.
There's been a guy that I'vebeen helping and he goes to my
university, he loves jewelry aswell and that those moments that
I've been connecting with him,helping him, you know, get ready
to go to New York Fashion Week,because New York Fashion Week
is coming up.
He's never been to New YorkFashion Week.
(46:36):
So those moments that I was,you know, with him and seeing
the next generation of blackjewelry lovers, that was
extremely therapeutic to mebeing around.
You know the next generation ofblack jewelry lovers.
That was extremely therapeuticto me being around.
You know the next generationand yeah, so.
Speaker 1 (46:54):
Yes, you know, douglas, I believe you have a
lot to offer.
You know you, and you're goingto be able to impact not just
black people or gay people.
You're going to be any kind ofmarginalized community, whether
it's disabled or autistic, oryou know, you have been on the
(47:19):
side where you know you didn'tfeel like you could be who you
are, and now you are reallydiscovering the power and the
beauty of being who you are, andthat translates out to just
about anything and everything.
Speaker 2 (47:35):
Right, it's a journey .
It's a journey, but you reallycan't do anything on your own.
You really can't and this issomething that I'm learning.
Even the conversation that I'mhaving with you and Dwight is so
(47:57):
impactful.
To be able to have arelationship with you all, it
means a lot to be connected andthat's something that I've
struggled with for a long timebeing this, like even with my
friends.
My friends are like, let uslive.
(48:18):
Like what's wrong with you,like you're like Elektra from
Pose.
Do you remember Pose, the show?
Pose?
Yes, yeah, I had that characterof Elektra, of I'm so serious
and I can't allow anybody.
Everything is about businessand everything is just about and
(48:39):
I remember that scene in thatshow Blanca, her daughter, she
was like it's the people whomake your life, who enrich your
life, and I think about thatalso.
You know, even with clothing,even with fashion, like part of
the beauty of clothes is, ordressing up, is dressing up with
(49:01):
your friends in the mirror.
You know putting on theeyeliner and sharing a mascara.
You know these little thingslike that to get ready to go to
the party, like it's not evenreally about the party, it's
about getting ready in theprocess of the party, of getting
ready for the party, so I lovethat.
Speaker 1 (49:19):
Yes, that's great.
I truly love that.
Wow.
Well, Douglas, this has been anamazing hour.
Speaker 2 (49:30):
Thank you, yes, it has.
Speaker 1 (49:32):
It took some interesting turns and so
organically and I love theplaces that we went and the
places we visited.
Speaker 3 (49:41):
Well, we would be remiss if we didn't close by
asking a big question.
Speaker 1 (49:47):
The big question.
Yes, that big question.
Thank you, dwight, he's keepingme on track.
Okay, we kind of keep an eye oneach other.
So here's the big question ofthe day In your current creative
life, what is the biggest painpoint, creative life, what is
the biggest pain point?
(50:08):
That challenge that, if it were?
Speaker 2 (50:12):
solved would be a game changer for you.
Ooh, real time right now.
So the biggest challenge, likethe biggest pain point right now
(50:36):
is pushing past that likeisolation, and pushing past yeah
, pushing past the self-imposedisolation and Ooh, ooh, I got a
call out that you just ownedthat.
Speaker 1 (50:50):
Okay, Listeners, did you see how he just owned that
self-imposed isolation?
Isolation is most alwaysself-imposed, you know.
If, if you're in a Turkishprison, you know, maybe it's not
self-imposed, but otherwise,most of the time it's
self-imposed.
What a beautiful calling it outand I want to acknowledge you
(51:13):
for taking responsibility,accountability and owning that.
Speaker 2 (51:20):
Absolutely wow, this has been quite an experience and
we're so glad that you couldjoin us today.
Speaker 1 (51:34):
Absolutely, I'm happy what a treat for our listeners.
So here's the big question of the day In your
current creative life what isthe biggest pain point, that
challenge that, if it weresolved, would be a game changer
for you, real time, right now.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
So the biggest challenge, like the biggest pain
point right now is pushing pastthat like isolation and pushing
past that like isolation andpushing past.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
Hey, there it's Maddox and Dwight, the
Connections and Community guys.
This is an episode of For theLove of Creatives podcast and
today we're welcoming our guest,Douglas Lewis.
Welcome, Douglas.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Thank you for this.
Happy to be here with you allagain.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
So just for a little backstory for our listeners,
douglas was actually a guest onmy previous podcast, which was
the Authentic Gay man podcast,and we hadn't talked in well
probably two or two and a halfyears since we had recorded that
episode.
And out of the blue, I just gotan email a few weeks ago from
(01:42):
Douglas and we connected and itwas such a great reunion and so
we asked him to be on thispodcast and here he is.
So tell the audience a littlebit about who you are and what
you're about.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
Okay, so I am a creative storyteller, writer,
with a history in editorialfashion, mainly with styling,
visual merchandising, all ofthose creative display things,
collecting magazines, and myjourney has pivoted from, I
(02:35):
guess, wanting to be an editorto becoming more of an educator.
And I was deeply rooted in thefashion world and went to New
York, came back and it was ahuge, huge journey, but we have
survived the chiffon trenches oflife and we are aimed to use
(03:03):
all of the lessons and all ofthe things that have occurred to
enlighten the next generationand beyond.
So we're at a good place.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
Well, and even as you step into teaching and moving a
little bit away from fashion,you are quite the fashionista.
I covet some of your jewelry.
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
So let's start off.
Let's go back to the verybeginning, at that wee age that
(03:34):
you first had an inkling of,that you were drawn to things
creative, and how that showed up, how that first glimmer of
creativity, what was it?
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Oh, it's so crazy because I'm in my grandmother's
office and it is crazy that youeven asked that at this time,
because this is the place whereso much of my creativity was
born, in this exact room, rightnow, and how old were you at
(04:14):
that point?
Oh, my God, I think I was.
It's been going on for years, Imean since I was about five.
For years, I mean since I wasabout five, six, seven I had
always been around this fabulouswoman and just working as her
(04:36):
assistant whether that wasrunning errands, going to the
Ralph Lauren outlet but our mainthing was archiving and putting
together these photo albums andlooking through all of her, all
of the fashion history of myfamily and looking at all of the
(04:59):
just.
That was our flow, assemblingphoto albums and then just doing
stationary and doing all thekinds of arts and crafts
projects in her office, becauseshe um, is a, is an educator,
and so this is the foundation,really, of photo albums did she
(05:20):
have to influence it in that,that in you, or did you just
naturally see her doing it andwant to be part of it?
She.
Well, I was always very closewith her and then, I think, just
as a result of proximity, I wasjust always around her and
doing those things.
(05:40):
So I think it was a mix of both.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
What a really beautiful beginning.
You know, and grandma's stillwith you, isn't she?
Speaker 2 (05:52):
She is, she is, she's in the next town, she's in
Rocky Mount, 45 minutes away,but she's hanging in there.
She's a strong, strong ladyyeah, that's beautiful.
Speaker 3 (06:11):
So, uh, dwight, you take over for a minute.
You got a good question fordouglas.
Yeah, I, I couldn't help butkind of feel that there was
something more about thatjourney, just as you were
describing what it was like towork in the fashion world and I
could almost detect a little bitof a little bit of history.
So it was like to work in thefashion world and I could almost
detect a little bit of a littlebit of history.
So it's like there were somefeelings that were simmering
(06:32):
below the surface.
Would you mind sharing a littlebit with us about what's going
on there?
Speaker 2 (06:38):
As far as the journey in fashion.
Empowering minds want to knowokay, so I basically I started
with my grandmother, um, and itjust kind of matriculated into
(06:59):
school, um, and basically it'svery interesting because I went
to a private Christian academy,so that was the very beginning.
So we had to wear very, verystrict uniforms.
So we had white shirt, whitehat to be a white collared shirt
(07:24):
, blue, black, khaki trousers.
We rarely had dress out days,so on occasion we could dress
out on a Friday.
And basically I remember at thattime really my first
introduction to fashion was nothappy because I was like I'm so
restricted and I hate thisuniform and there was so much
(07:48):
restriction.
But I think throughout as Imatriculated through grade
school and when I transitionedfrom private school to public
school, there was a transitionthere which was kind of rooted
in some trauma, because Iremember I never was able to.
(08:10):
You know, I was fresh fromprivate school so I could not
wear any of the like things thatwere popular at the time in the
early 2000s for Black men.
You know, because in the early2000s and Black men there was
this chain hang low, you knowthat, that sagging pants,
culture, all of that, and andthe long t-shirts and the Air
(08:33):
Force ones.
For some reason my generationyou had to have fresh pair of
Air Force ones and I did nothave.
I couldn't afford it, Icouldn't afford it, I couldn't
afford it.
And so I remember being bullied,partially for being queer,
partially for not fitting in,and I remember I couldn't really
(08:53):
.
I was kind of stuck between arock and a hard place because my
parents, my grandmother, waslike no, you are not sagging
your pants, and I was like youwill be.
You cannot do that.
And then, you know, not reallyable to fit in with the people
in school.
So I was bullied like viciouslyin school and I remember,
throughout that process, youknow, I was like I'm going to
(09:17):
show you, I'm going to tap intothis difference.
I'm going to tap into notfitting in Because I remember at
one point I was not you know,obviously was upset about being
bullied and then I just began tolike it and I began to start to
express myself in differentways, via the thrift store,
(09:39):
going to New York trips, to NewYork trips, looking online at
other people around the worldand seeing what they were
wearing, wearing skinny jeans,and all of that was very
different and it was notnecessarily accepted in my
hometown.
And so I remember at that pointI could use fashion and I
(10:04):
started to really fall in lovewith clothing as a form of
self-expression, so that I couldstand out and, you know, really
tap into the fact that I didn'tlook like everybody else.
Then I became obsessed and I hadthis like Cruella de Vil moment
, do tell it's Cruella de Vil,because you know the movie
Cruella.
You know Cruella to me, becauseyou know the movie Cruella, you
(10:25):
know Cruella, the backstory.
She you know she was teased andbullied and then she began to
become this like fashion personof like I'm going to show you.
And the same thing is true forum, one of my favorite fashion
icons, diana Vreeland, who wasthe editor-in-chief of Vogue and
fashion editor of Harper'sBazaar.
She was teased and then shewrote in her journal and she
(10:48):
said that she's going to becomethe greatest, she's going to
become this larger than lifefigure in fashion and she's
going to have the best clothes.
And then she became DianaVreeland and she's one of the
most legendary people in thefashion industry.
And I remember I was inspired byher, but I guess through a
process of collecting magazines,papering my walls with
(11:16):
editorial spreads from V-ManMagazine, v Magazine, gq,
british GQ all of thesedifferent magazines making this
world of creativity come alive.
That was how I got it began.
And then I just had internshipswith other fabulous people,
started going to New YorkFashion Week around 2016,
(11:41):
interned a lot, lot, and thenstarted to just keep going back
and forth to New York FashionWeek and doing research.
And then, obviously, I went toNew York and lived and worked at
Bergdorf Goodman and met someincredible people there, so it's
(12:04):
been a journey for sure.
Speaker 3 (12:06):
So what I'm hearing you share is that when you went
through that really stark, youknow very much, everyone had to
be the same, they had to wearuniforms, that world of private
school then kind of having theshock of making that transition
to public school where you weremercilessly bullied and you had
(12:29):
to hold on to a set of standardsthat you could not conform to
with your peers in public schooland it clashed with everything
that was expected of you at homeand from from that was forged
something that would become yoursuperpower.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
Yeah, yes.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
Yeah, I'm languaging it probably a little bit
differently.
I saw something very similar inthat you, in all of the
bullying, the fashion wasactually a safety defense
mechanism that turned into agreat love and passion.
Who knew that?
(13:12):
Who saw that coming Right?
Speaker 2 (13:15):
Yes, yes, it is.
Yes, fashion is.
Fashion is instant language.
It's a way to express yourself.
Passion is instant language.
It's a way to express yourself,and that's why I don't
understand why it's socontroversial at times, because
it truly is an external displayof what is on the inside.
(13:43):
So if you like to wear red poloshirts, that means you're just
a fiery, passionate person, youknow, and there's nothing wrong
with that.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
So nothing at all.
You know, douglas, as a personwho was also bullied a lot in
school, and I wish I had a storylike yours.
I didn't have anything that youknow.
Counterbalanced that when youstepped off into you know what.
I'm going to use this as mypower rather than my weakness.
(14:12):
I'm going to, instead of tryingto fit in, I'm going to stand
out.
I'm going to do fashion.
I'm going to do my own thing.
How did all those bulliesrespond to that?
Did it push them away or didthe bullying get worse?
Speaker 2 (14:29):
Probably got worse at a point.
I remember it was just likepeacocking.
I'm sorry for this, but there'slike a peacocking moment that
happened and it was not.
It was not always met withpositivity, and that was
(14:49):
internally and externally.
It was not always, if we'rebeing honest, you know it was
not always met with positivity.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
I lived in a small town through.
Well, I didn't leave that smalltown until I was 29 years old
and we're talking, you know,early 70s.
There was a student, very talland slender, probably a little
taller than me, a little moreslender than me Actually.
(15:22):
I look back now and he was justa gorgeous black man.
He was gay, gay.
Gay had a huge afro and heplayed it to the hilt.
He didn't care what anybodythought.
He wore the strongest vanillacologne I have ever smelled in
(15:44):
my life.
The fragrance entered the roombefore he did.
It was so strong.
But he really did his own thing.
He didn't care what anybodythought and for the most part
they would make nasty commentsand things, but they didn't
(16:04):
bother him too much.
He just really kind of pulledoff an attitude that in some
regard said don't fuck with me.
I wish that he'd been more ofan inspiration.
I was afraid to go all out likethat.
(16:25):
I stayed very quiet, subduedand tried to become invisible.
But I love your story in that,in spite of the fact that you
were really exploring your owncreativity and your own
expression of that creativitythrough fashion, and they
(16:45):
bullied you, continued to bullyyou and the whole peacocking
thing and your own expression ofthat creativity through fashion
.
And they bullied you, continuedto bully you and the whole
peacocking thing.
You didn't give it up.
You hung tight, didn't you?
I did, I did, wow, you know,just want to.
You know it's not always aboutbullying, but, as creatives,
we're confronted every day withthe need to be courageous, the
(17:09):
need to put ourselves out there,the need to put our creations
out there, whether it's fashionor art, dance, writing, it
doesn't matter what it is.
It's really really hard to putit out there, because there's
all kinds of forms of bullying.
(17:29):
Criticism is a form of bullyingPeople making fun of you on
social media, and so I find thisparticular part and I know
there's a lot more, but I feelthis particular part of your
story is very inspiring to me,and I hope it is to our
listeners, because it is ametaphor for all the ways that
(17:54):
we, as creatives, need to standin who we are, stand in what our
creation is, believe in ourcreation, put our creation out
there, but more than that, putourselves out there, because
putting your creation out thereisn't enough.
What's your take on that?
What's your take on that?
(18:16):
Because we see a lot of peopleon social media that plaster
their art all over everything,but they're nowhere to be seen.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
Wow, you just I am guilty of that.
Actually, that is spot on andI've been doing some deep
internal pattern recognition onthat.
And why was it so hard for meto express myself and put myself
(18:48):
out there?
Because I think that is whatfashion is wearing the clothes,
looking towards moreauthenticity, and they want to
see, they want to connect with ahuman being more than anything,
(19:11):
and I think you have to be verystrong to do that.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
I'm going to step out a little bit.
I'm going to take a little bitof a risk here.
I'm going to step out a littlebit.
I'm going to take a little bitof a risk here.
You and I are connected onLinkedIn.
You sent me a connection linkand I connected and I went in
and really looked in detail atyour LinkedIn profile.
Okay, and here's what Iobserved, and I'm sharing this
(19:42):
with you because I really think,once again, this is a metaphor.
There's something in this foreverybody out there.
I've had an opportunity to havemultiple very, very personal and
deep conversations with you andyou have been open and shown up
extremely authentically in mypresence.
I know who's in there and I'vegot a pretty good idea what he's
(20:08):
about.
What I noticed on LinkedIn wasyou're a very warm, friendly
person.
You have bright eyes and agreat smile and although the
photo you posted is a strikingphoto, there's no smile.
Photo you posted is a strikingphoto.
(20:29):
It there's no smile.
I don't it there's.
It's like okay, while this is agreat photo, it is not the
essence of who douglas is to me.
Speaker 3 (20:35):
Yeah, yeah, I, I remember we, we did the review
together there.
I would change out the photobecause it's also presenting you
with a closed posture.
Yeah, I think your.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
Your hands are crossed, if I'm like, or arms
are crossed, if I'm not mistaken.
The other thing I noticed wasin all of the about and all the
information, you listedeverything you've ever done.
Some of it's quite impressive.
Yeah, a lot of it's quiteimpressive, but you didn't tell
(21:07):
anybody who you are, and that'sthe most important part so, for
anyone listening, this issomething that we talked about.
Speaker 3 (21:19):
well, we mentioned in episode 35 with Kevin
Whitehurst, where Maddox it wasyou that made the point that or
you summed up what he said, aspeople aren't buying the art,
they're buying you.
(21:39):
The art just happens to comewith it.
Speaker 1 (21:42):
Yes, and that translates out to whatever
creativity you do.
It doesn't matter whetheryou're an architect or a dancer.
Now, dancers, of course, thenature of what they do, they
have to be out there in front,and that just in this moment.
(22:02):
I'm going aha, what an ahamoment, because the rest of the
creatives community needs totake some inspiration and a page
out of the book of dancers wayto put your art out there
(22:25):
without putting yourself outthere.
When you are a dancer on thatstage, performing in front of
everyone, it couldn't be muchmore out there than that.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
That's so crazy that you said that, because right
before this podcast, I didn'tmean to interrupt you.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
I'm sorry, but I was listening to Josephine Baker and
Josephine Baker is the epitomeof putting yourself out there, I
mean, but I just wanted to goahead and let you put that in
there, no, I think it's greatand I think this is an amazing
conversation and it just seguedin naturally, Like I didn't have
(23:02):
anything like this, planned tosay any of this, but it's just
unfolded organically and it'ssuch a beautiful conversation to
have.
How does it land for you what Ijust shared with you about you
and the way you're presentingyourself?
Speaker 2 (23:20):
It's a breakthrough.
It's a breakthrough to to hearthat and I receive that.
I receive that because I thinkit coincides with a lot of
different, a lot of the internalshadow work that I've been
doing this past year and a halfthat I've been here, because I'm
realizing that there has been akind of history of of of
(23:44):
shrinking myself so that I canbe seen as this serious fashion
person.
I'm really not.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
The photo was very polished and professional and it
lacked the essence of whoDouglas is.
Douglas is outrageous For thoseof you that aren't watching a
video and listening auditorily.
He's got this huge.
He's got a fun T-shirt on justa T-shirt that says Lewis family
(24:15):
.
I can't read below that to seewhat it says.
The rest of it 2000.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
We like to call carolina.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
Home got this really big, chunky turquoise necklace.
That's almost a choker notquite as a choker, but it's just
covered in turquoise chunky,got bracelets all up and down.
Both arms rings on some what?
Some of the fingers have asmany as three rings on them,
right, yes, yes, you have thisoutrageous way of expressing
(24:44):
yourself and it fits you, yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:49):
It fits you, Douglas.
I just want to give a shout out.
The necklace is a welcomepattern.
Interrupt, Like you're notgoing to run into yourself on
the street.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
No, you're not, but that's what people need to see.
That's how you're.
You know, I get that.
We have this thing that we haveto show up professionally when
we're looking to get jobs andand maybe there's a way to kind
of weave a little bit of that inthere, because that polish,
that black outfit with thelittle bit of gold, trim the
(25:22):
glasses, the whole bit.
That is a part of who you are,but it's not the whole of who
you are and it's not even thebiggest part of who you are.
I'm thinking now I'm limited inmy exposure to you, but I'm
going to put a guess out thereand say the more outrageous part
(25:42):
of you is the bigger percentageof you.
And yes, we all have thosemoments when we need to step
into something, that look incertain arenas where we need to
look a little more polished anda little more professional, and
that's okay.
We wear different hats indifferent scenarios.
But even as long as we realizethat they're a role we're
(26:02):
playing, for that and they'renot like who we really are, then
it's OK to to play thosedifferent roles.
Speaker 3 (26:12):
Even when you're wearing the hat, you still want
to come through.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
That's going to be the difference between someone
being drawn to what it is thatyou have to offer and, you know,
just thinking that you're justmore of the same.
Yeah, yeah, you know, itdoesn't matter where I am or
what I'm wearing.
I let my quirky personalityshine through.
I'm always making some wise-ass, crackpot comment that is
making people turn their headsor laugh.
(26:45):
I kind of like pushing theenvelope a little bit, getting
people to lighten up.
Or I'll say something that'sreally deep and profound, or
I'll share something really likepretty personal and people are
like you know, but it breaks theice.
And then everybody I givepermission, the rest of the
people sitting around me nowthey've got permission to show
(27:06):
the warts on their ass too.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
Right, right, right, because we all have them we all
have them, yes.
Speaker 3 (27:15):
And you shouldn't be afraid to let your freak flag
fly.
I remember an occasion.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
Boy, that's a tang-tangler.
Speaker 3 (27:22):
Where Maddox and I went for a night on the town.
We were just doing something alittle bit different.
So we went to a place far northof Dallas.
We went to go have an eveningout on the Denton Square where
it's a college town, so they'reused to people kind of showing
their flair a little bit.
But we went to a little sleepyrestaurant and you were wearing
(27:46):
wide-legged, flared pants.
I had big, wide-legged pants on.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
I think I had a hat.
I mean I had like gone for thecreative, the very, let's say, I
would not have bumped intomyself on the street.
And from the moment we steppedout of the car people on the
street were stopping me to goand love your outfit oh my God,
(28:13):
those pants are amazing.
Or when we walked into therestaurant, the waitstaff, they
were not busy at all.
We were there early, there washardly anybody in there and the
waitstaff is all just standingaround and we walk up and
everybody's like, wow, cooloutfits guys.
And that's kind of the way weroll.
We just express ourselves.
I don't wear what I think otherpeople are going to like.
(28:34):
I wear what I want to wear andwhat I like, and I don't give a
shit what anybody else thinks.
I love that you know it'sbrilliant to get to a point in
life where you just don't haveany more fucks to give.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
Right, exactly.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
Now there's still a few areas where I may have a
little bit of fucks to give.
But you know, in everyday lifeI'm always amazed and this is
maybe a little bit off topic butit's relevant I'm always amazed
at how many people, when out inpublic, they care about what
total strangers think.
(29:13):
I am completely the opposite,like I care about what my loved
ones think, but people I don'tknow couldn't give a rat's ass
never going to see them againprobably.
You know, dwight and I walk ona walking trail here every
(29:34):
morning and sometimes it'sconvenient where we get to walk
together, mostly on weekends,because our day schedules are a
bit different.
We go separately on weekdays.
He's early, then I'm a littlebit later, but sometimes I get
there before he's off the trailand we will pass each other on
the trail different.
We go separately on weekdays.
He's early, then I'm a littlebit later, but sometimes I get
there before he's off the trailand we will pass each other on
the trail and he stops and givesme this big wet kiss right on
the middle of the trail and thenwe embrace in a hug and you
(29:56):
know we really don't care whatothers think.
You know we really don't carewhat others think.
Speaker 2 (30:05):
Yeah, thank you for sharing that.
I love that, thank you.
But it's, you know, sometimesit's just necessary to in order
for you to fully like healsomething or any like shame is.
(30:25):
Sometimes it's just necessary,and I'm not blaming anyone, but
I'm saying it's necessary tokind of get down to the root of
it so that you can fully heal.
And that's why that's whereI've kind of been, you know,
cause being in the South has notjust not been the the most
accepting of places for um queercreativity, you know out loud,
(30:51):
and I think I've inherited somuch of that like kind of
internalized, like shame and um,that's probably another, and
then in the south you add to itand it's just another layer.
Speaker 3 (31:04):
Hold on, hold on.
Let me draw you to an icon ofthe South, a black icon of the
South, dare I say a black queericon of the South.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (31:18):
You need to erect an altar to Little Richard.
Oh yes, Come on now.
Speaker 1 (31:27):
Wow, you know, Douglas, I love, I want to go
down the rabbit hole.
I want to.
I'd love to take a few minutesand dive deep on on this journey
to heal, Because there are so.
I mean.
The creatives community isfilled with every color of skin,
(31:48):
every race, and this Souththing is not just for blacks,
it's for anybody that's notwhite, Right right right, you
know.
And then there's a hugepercentage of the creatives
community that is gay, male andfemale, and so I think that this
is a worthwhile conversation.
I'd love to hear more aboutthis healing journey and how
(32:11):
you're navigating it and whatstage you're in.
Are you closer to the beginningof the healing process?
Are you closer to the end ofthe healing process?
Let's just go into that.
I'd love to know more.
Speaker 2 (32:25):
Okay, well, I think first, like healing is obviously
is a never ending battle, but Ithink too I'm about 50% there,
50 to 75% there of gettingtowards a place of full
(32:49):
self-acceptance and I think thathalf the battle was coming back
home.
It's easy for me to go to NewYork and be footloose and fancy
free and wear skirts and wear,you know, dresses everywhere and
pearls, but you know it'sdifficult when you're home and
(33:13):
you're kind of surrounded bythose who may or may not, you
know, accept you know you, orturn up their faces, or so it's
been a deeply grounding processfor me to do that.
But throughout the process ofcoming back to North Carolina
and really looking back at myphotos of an inner child and
(33:37):
it's crazy because inner child,that is the beginning, I think
that is the ultimate, innerchild healing is the ultimate,
that inner child creativehealing.
And I think for so long I hadthis gothic period and it's
interesting how we'recorrelating healing internally
to clothes.
But I had this gothic period ofall black and trying to be
(33:59):
serious and that you, you know,closed off persona.
And then I looked at some of mypictures when I was five years
old and I was looking at mypictures and I was wearing
orange.
You know, I was wearing oranget-shirts and I was having a good
time and just being creative.
And and that's where I'm I'mreturning to is this just inner,
(34:24):
inner child creativity of likejust do it you don't have.
It doesn't have to be supplyand demand, it doesn't have to
be everything, doesn't have tobe the better business Bureau,
you know.
Speaker 3 (34:38):
You know, and as I and as I hear you relate, that
I'm I'm reconciling what it wasthat Maddox just shared about
how he doesn't care what thepeople on the outside think.
It's the people close to him,and I'm hearing how you're
having to confront the peoplethat are close to you, the
people that do have an outsizedimpact on how you feel, right,
(34:59):
right, and it sounds like that'skind of the last barrier for
you, like there's a lot of hurtthere.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
Well, and it also it is worth saying that.
You know, in New York City it'sso acceptable to be just
dressed any way you want todress and weird that it's not a
safety issue there.
But when you go back into theSouth South in North Carolina,
wearing skirts could be a deathsentence, you know.
(35:29):
So you know we have to balance.
What do we?
You know, it's not like youhave to try to suddenly fit in
and look like everybody else,but you may have to tone it down
just for the sake of your ownphysical safety, health and
well-being, and I hate that wehave to do that.
(35:49):
And all the more reason to getthe hell out of Dodge and move
to someplace where you can fullybe yourself.
I left that small town at age29 where I was in the closet.
I had been acknowledged tomyself that I was gay, to my
family, to my friends when I wasabout 24.
And I didn't leave my hometownuntil I was 29.
(36:10):
And the first thing I did whenI arrived in Austin, texas, was
I just told the whole fuckingworld I am one big old, huge fag
.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
You know I am not living in the closet anymore.
If you got a problem with who Iam, there is the door.
Do not let it hit you on theass on the way out.
Speaker 2 (36:30):
Right, right, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
I stopped apologizing and stopped caring.
I just you know, acceptance forwho we are is an inside job.
I would have never guessed thisuntil I experienced it
firsthand.
And this isn't just I'm goingto say right here this isn't
(36:54):
just about gay.
It's about anything that weneed to be accepted for, whether
it's the color of our skin orsome different language that we
speak or it's a disability, itdoesn't matter what it is.
When we accept ourselves inhere, the rest of the world's
accept us out here for the mostpart.
(37:14):
I've gone through this multipletimes.
When I finally got completelycomfortable with being gay gay I
stopped experiencing anyhomophobic activity whatsoever.
At one point I'd worn contactlenses for many, many years.
I came into the world blind andI started wearing glasses at
(37:35):
age five and they were thickCoke bottle bottoms and I wore
contact lenses from the time Igraduated from high school until
I was in my mid-upper 30s maybe.
And then one day my eyes saidsorry, we're done, we're not,
you do not put those plasticthings in us anymore, you know.
And I had to go back to glassesand it was a dark day because I
(37:56):
didn't feel attractive inglasses.
I had been teased all my life.
It had all this trauma likeballed up in it.
And there was this moment when II hate glasses, I hate glasses,
I hate glasses, I don't likethe way I look in glasses, I
don't, I don't feel attractive,all this bullshit.
(38:17):
And I had to look in the mirrorand tell myself, dude, you do
not have an option, you'relegally blind, you have to wear
glasses and you need to get overit, right, right.
And I said, maddox, you need tolearn to love yourself with
glasses.
I did the same thing with.
You need to love yourself as agay man.
(38:39):
And so I just started tellingmyself that I'd look in the
mirror and tell myself how muchI loved myself in glasses.
Those glasses look amazing onyou.
It was a very short period oftime where complete strangers on
the street would stop me andsay cool glasses, those look
amazing on you.
Speaker 2 (38:58):
Right, right, I still , you can ask Dwight decades
later.
Speaker 1 (39:03):
I mean, I was 35-ish then.
Now I'm damn near 70.
And people every day stop me onthe street and say great
glasses, those look amazing onyou.
And it was an attitude shiftthat I had when we can love
ourselves because we're aparaplegic in spite of the fact
(39:24):
that we're a paraplegic, if wecan love ourselves because we
have dark skin the whole rest ofthe world's going to follow
suit.
I've experienced it over andover again in my own life and
it's been consistent, Right,right.
Speaker 3 (39:42):
I want to encourage you to extend that even further.
Speaker 2 (39:56):
I want to encourage you to extend that even further.
Speaker 3 (39:57):
Like what you were saying before, or you implied
that you were dealing with thatfinal frontier of acceptance and
that's those loved ones aroundyou hard.
The first step is the hardeston this.
But if, if you embody trulyloving and accepting yourself
and embracing all that makes youwho you are, you're going to
experience that that judgment,that's a reflex, that's that's
(40:22):
because of their upbringing,that's because that's what they
know.
But you are going to shine likea beacon for them and you're
going to educate them and you'regoing to show them that all the
world is not as they have beentaught that it is.
Speaker 1 (40:41):
He's speaking the truth there.
You know, I came out at a timethat was much different than
this.
I came out in 1981 in a smallTexas town.
Now was it a jolt.
Did my family have to adjust?
It was a period of time of kindof like adjustment, but every
single family member, fromgrandparents to parents, to
(41:04):
nieces, to nephews, to brothers,sisters, every person in my
family fully accepted me.
Speaker 2 (41:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:15):
And I have to believe that's because you know I was
doing my work to accept myself.
Speaker 3 (41:22):
I would like to offer you a challenge to move that
scale of where you are and thatself-acceptance beyond that
halfway point.
And it's a pretty simplechallenge on LinkedIn.
And how do you think he wouldfeel about displaying that warm
(41:56):
and open person that we knowthat you are?
And allowing others to see it.
Speaker 2 (42:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:04):
Yeah, they haven't had a chance to actually see who
you are and, you know, willthere be some people that will
be repelled.
Oh, hell, yes, right, right,right.
Those aren't your people, right?
You know?
We talked about this before.
Vulnerability and authenticityare polarizers.
They send the naysayers, theysend the people that you
(42:26):
wouldn't want to have in yourlife anyway.
They send those people away andit draws the people in that are
the right people for you, thepeople that want to come sit
right beside you because theyappreciate who you are, just as
you are Right.
Speaker 3 (42:43):
Right yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:46):
You've heard the term like a moth to flame.
Speaker 2 (42:50):
Like Janet Jackson, like a moth to flame.
Yes, yes, yeah, I hear youthough.
I hear you, I hear you.
But I'm going to break throughnow because I'm realizing, you
know, it's not my responsibilityto monitor how I'm seeing, you
(43:18):
know, it's my responsibility tojust be exactly as I am, you
know, and for and for a longtime, that was difficult for me
to fully lean into that.
But I think through, like Isaid, deep shadow work.
I'm coming up on a breakthroughbecause and I have started, you
(43:40):
know I have I literally wastransformed.
I, like y'all, shot a thousandvolts of electric joy inside of
me from that last interviewbecause I broke down.
It was some stuff that neededto be released.
I was crying, you know andy'all, y'all have been.
you snatched me, Y'all have beensnatching me bald.
You see, I don't have no hair.
(44:02):
You see my edges.
Speaker 1 (44:05):
Yeah, for those that can't see, he has a shaved head.
So we done, snatched him bald.
Speaker 2 (44:10):
You snatched me bald.
You snatched me bald, but youknow it was necessary and I
started, you know, posted onTikTok.
But yeah, I'm in a good place.
I'm in a good place.
Speaker 1 (44:22):
So thank you, I want to and thank you for that and
place.
So so I want to, I and thankyou for that, I and I, and, and
I just want to say I am so proudof you.
I'm so proud of you.
Thank you so much.
You know I'm probably oldenough to be your grandmother or
grandfather and I'm just, uh,yeah, proud.
I want to shift gears a littlebit and hear a little bit about
(44:42):
your take on community andcreativity and how community
plays a role and and how maybeit was in new york and how maybe
it's different in northcarolina okay, so this is.
Speaker 2 (44:57):
I'm actually excited to talk about this because it's
something that has set me free,like with community.
I would say it's.
It's the tonic to connectionand it's a.
It's something that keeps you,you alive, I would say, because,
(45:32):
in the midst of all of thatshame and all of the people who
are saying like, oh, you shoulddo something else, what have you
achieved in fashion?
Or all of that projectionthroughout the past year and a
half of like you should dosomething else, and all of that
that I was receiving, that was atonic for me.
(45:54):
I was like you know what, themore y'all try to tear me down,
I'm going to lift as many otherpeople up, tonic of my, of what
I'm doing now, which is istrying to use my experiences in
the fashion industry and helpingthe next generation to um, to
be to get their foot in the door.
(46:14):
And I know that was a.
I know that's a lot and it'skind of a run on, but there
there's a guy.
There's been a guy that I'vebeen helping and he goes to my
university, he loves jewelry aswell and that those moments that
I've been connecting with him,helping him, you know, get ready
to go to New York Fashion Week,because New York Fashion Week
is coming up.
He's never been to New YorkFashion Week.
(46:36):
So those moments that I was,you know, with him and seeing
the next generation of blackjewelry lovers, that was
extremely therapeutic to mebeing around.
You know the next generation ofblack jewelry lovers.
That was extremely therapeuticto me being around.
You know the next generationand yeah, so.
Speaker 1 (46:54):
Yes, you know, douglas, I believe you have a
lot to offer.
You know you, and you're goingto be able to impact not just
black people or gay people.
You're going to be any kind ofmarginalized community, whether
it's disabled or autistic, oryou know, you have been on the
(47:19):
side where you know you didn'tfeel like you could be who you
are, and now you are reallydiscovering the power and the
beauty of being who you are, andthat translates out to just
about anything and everything.
Speaker 2 (47:35):
Right, it's a journey .
It's a journey, but you reallycan't do anything on your own.
You really can't and this issomething that I'm learning.
Even the conversation that I'mhaving with you and Dwight is so
(47:57):
impactful.
To be able to have arelationship with you all, it
means a lot to be connected andthat's something that I've
struggled with for a long timebeing this, like even with my
friends.
My friends are like, let uslive.
(48:18):
Like what's wrong with you,like you're like Elektra from
Pose.
Do you remember Pose, the show?
Pose?
Yes, yeah, I had that characterof Elektra, of I'm so serious
and I can't allow anybody.
Everything is about businessand everything is just about and
(48:39):
I remember that scene in thatshow Blanca, her daughter, she
was like it's the people whomake your life, who enrich your
life, and I think about thatalso.
You know, even with clothing,even with fashion, like part of
the beauty of clothes is, ordressing up, is dressing up with
(49:01):
your friends in the mirror.
You know putting on theeyeliner and sharing a mascara.
You know these little thingslike that to get ready to go to
the party, like it's not evenreally about the party, it's
about getting ready in theprocess of the party, of getting
ready for the party, so I lovethat.
Speaker 1 (49:19):
Yes, that's great.
I truly love that.
Wow.
Well, Douglas, this has been anamazing hour.
Speaker 2 (49:30):
Thank you, yes, it has.
Speaker 1 (49:32):
It took some interesting turns and so
organically and I love theplaces that we went and the
places we visited.
Speaker 3 (49:41):
Well, we would be remiss if we didn't close by
asking a big question.
Speaker 1 (49:47):
The big question.
Yes, that big question.
Thank you, dwight, he's keepingme on track.
Okay, we kind of keep an eye oneach other.
So here's the big question ofthe day In your current creative
life, what is the biggest painpoint, creative life, what is
the biggest pain point?
(50:08):
That challenge that, if it were?
Speaker 2 (50:12):
solved would be a game changer for you.
Ooh, real time right now.
So the biggest challenge, likethe biggest pain point right now
(50:36):
is pushing past that likeisolation, and pushing past yeah
, pushing past the self-imposedisolation and Ooh, ooh, I got a
call out that you just ownedthat.
Speaker 1 (50:50):
Okay, Listeners, did you see how he just owned that
self-imposed isolation?
Isolation is most alwaysself-imposed, you know.
If, if you're in a Turkishprison, you know, maybe it's not
self-imposed, but otherwise,most of the time it's
self-imposed.
What a beautiful calling it outand I want to acknowledge you
(51:13):
for taking responsibility,accountability and owning that.
Speaker 2 (51:20):
Absolutely wow, this has been quite an experience and
we're so glad that you couldjoin us today.
Speaker 1 (51:34):
Absolutely, I'm happy what a treat for our listeners.
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