October 13, 2025 • 48 mins
What if everything you thought about creativity was wrong? Dr. Zorana Ivcevic Pringle, senior research scientist at the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence and author of The Creativity Choice, challenges our assumptions about what it means to be creative.
Forget the notion that creativity belongs only to artists, designers, and “creative types.” The biggest misconception limiting our potential is believing creativity equals art. Engineers solving problems, parents inventing dinner solutions, and you navigating your day—all require creative thinking. Yet many dismiss their abilities because of a narrow definition of creativity.
Dr. Ivcevic Pringle reveals how creativity actually works. It’s not a linear process but more like an elevator that skips floors—you start with one destination but may end up somewhere else. This unpredictability isn’t a flaw but a feature of innovation.
Perhaps most liberating is the truth about confidence. We don’t need complete belief before beginning, just enough to take the first step. As Georgia O’Keeffe admitted, she was “terrified of everything she ever did,” yet still created groundbreaking art. Confidence builds through action.
This episode explores how claiming a creative identity changes our work, why doubt is inevitable, and how community prevents “one-hit wonders.” Dr. Ivcevic Pringle also shares research on why physical engagement sparks more innovation—and why AI, despite its power, still can’t truly depart from average patterns.
Whether you’ve always considered yourself creative or not, this conversation offers both validation and challenge. Start small, embrace discomfort, put in the reps, and remember... the magic happens outside your comfort zone.
Dr. Ivcevic Pringle's Profile
Website
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Zorana Ivcevic Pringle (00:10):
But what about developing creativity in
new ways, in new areas where youdidn't train?
You know, I didn't train to bea chef or pastry chef, but I
really wanted to bake.
So I started very small, inthings that were just tiny
little things that are justmeaningful, even noticeable to
(00:33):
me only.
And then it becomes, it grows,it becomes bigger.
Dwight Spencer (00:50):
Hello and welcome to another edition of
the For the Love of Creativespodcast.
I am your host and Connectionsand Community Guy Dwight, joined
by our other host andConnections and Community Guy
Maddox, and today our featuredguest is Zorana Izvichik-Pringle
.
Hello, Zorana, Welcome to Forthe Love of Creatives.
Zorana Ivcevic Pringle (01:13):
Thank you very much for having me.
Dwight Spencer (01:15):
We're so excited that you can join us.
It's a little bit of adeparture from the artists and
makers and musicians that wenormally have a chance to sit
down with, but we're especiallyexcited about having you here.
Could you tell our listeners alittle bit about who you are and
(01:37):
what you do?
Zorana Ivcevic Pringle (01:39):
Yeah, so I am a senior research
scientist at the Yale Center forEmotional Intelligence, so my
background is in science andsocial science, particularly
psychology, and I really studyeverything about people who
create.
So this is a perfect fit frommy standpoint.
(02:02):
Your audience are people whoare creating, and I just love to
learn about all of you and giveback to the community by
telling what I have learned andwhat are some unexpected things
that we don't normally talkabout when we talk about
creativity.
Dwight Spencer (02:23):
Oh, I'm excited, and I am especially excited now
for those of us who are notwatching on youtube.
Um, right over, uh yourshoulder is a wonderful book
that you've done, that you've uhwritten.
That does a great job ofunpacking a whole lot of things
about creativity, and you buriedthe lead.
(02:46):
I mean, what a wonderful bookthe Creativity Choice.
It's fabulous.
One of the things that reallystood out for me was how you
outlined something that we getto see played out.
Every time we go to a creativemornings event, they have a
manifesto that they recite thatstarts with the line everyone is
(03:13):
creative, and I really feltthat sense as I was turning the
pages of your wonderful book.
Zorana Ivcevic Pringle (03:21):
Oh, that is the best of compliments.
Thank you of your wonderfulbook.
Maddox (03:26):
Oh, that is the best of compliments, thank you.
Dwight Spencer (03:27):
Well, and just so everybody knows, there will
be a link to the book in theshow notes.
Yeah, so I know that.
A few quirky things that arepoints of commonality On this
particular episode.
It's just a little talk amongthree Trekkies.
Zorana Ivcevic Pringle (03:54):
Oh, that is a super special treat.
Maddox (04:00):
You are among friends.
I'm old enough that I watchedthe original series when it
aired live back in the 60s.
Zorana Ivcevic Pringle (04:09):
Oh wow, you definitely do not look old
enough for that.
Maddox (04:14):
Thank you.
Dwight Spencer (04:16):
Wow, I think Maddox has a new best friend.
Maddox (04:21):
I do indeed.
Yes, I've been a Trekkie mywhole life.
I've seen everything Trek thereis just about.
Zorana Ivcevic Pringle (04:34):
I think what attracts me to it is
imagination about the future.
It is imagination of what couldbe, of what better life, better
society would be like.
It's not about space at all.
It is really about the newfrontiers in humanity.
Dwight Spencer (04:53):
Beautifully said .
Maddox (04:54):
Yeah, I think it's very symbolic.
You know, I think that I'vealways, for many years now, said
the final frontier is not space.
In that show, it's the metaphorfor going within.
The final frontier is in here.
Yeah, people will go to themoon and back before they'll go
within.
Dwight Spencer (05:13):
It's crazy well, a wonderful thing about that
whole notion of everyone beingcreative is and it's kind of
funny.
I remember being a littlenervous about maybe you thinking
twice about joining us becausethe name of our podcast is For
(05:37):
the Love of Creatives and youmake very clear that you hate
the way that that kind of putsup a dividing line.
Zorana Ivcevic Pringle (05:48):
Yeah, thank you for bringing that up.
I think everybody who we ineveryday life call creatives
certainly are creative, but thatterm implies something that I
think is limiting.
Implies something that I thinkis limiting.
It implies that creativity isfor those people who are in
(06:10):
particular industries or inparticular roles, who are
designers, who are inadvertising, who are writing,
who are doing something in theartistic fields and most
definitely it is.
But creativity is more thanthat and I have worked with
(06:32):
people in different roles, indifferent industries where you
would not even suspectcreativity was possible.
But it is.
Maddox (06:43):
Creativity is in everything.
People have heard me say.
If you got out of bed, managedto get yourself dressed and
across town to your job today,you're creative.
Dwight Spencer (06:55):
Yeah, yeah, very much so, and I love the way
that you have shared some of theexamples of things that you've
done.
That showed your own creativejourney.
Like one of the things youshare early on in the book is
about how you would, um youwould actually bake, right so
(07:18):
and I believe you started firstvery carefully following recipes
and then you found um thefreedom to improvise it.
Zorana Ivcevic Pringle (07:29):
So when we are, when we think about
creativity, we first go too big.
We think of you know einstein'sand steve jobs's of this world
and you know coco ch, cocoChanel, and just name your
favorite creator in whatever ismeaningful to you.
(07:51):
But creativity is much more andit comes in different levels.
Psychologists distinguish thesefour levels of creativity and
my professional creativity is inscience, is in science,
communication, in telling youand your audience of what we
(08:13):
have learned in ways that areaccessible and meaningful.
So I have developed this kindof creativity through time,
through education, through, youknow, practice.
But what about developingcreativity in new ways, in new
(08:34):
areas where you didn't train?
You know, I didn't train to bea chef or pastry chef, but I
really wanted to bake.
So I started very small inthings that were just tiny,
little things that are justmeaningful, even noticeable to
me only.
And then it becomes, it grows,it becomes bigger.
(08:57):
I can now combine recipes, Iknow how to imagine things that
previously I could not imagine,and that's how oftentimes
creativity in everyday lifeworks in lots of different
things.
I have a friend who has startedjust writing a personal blog
(09:23):
and it became a popular one andthen a book deal came through
that.
So this is how creativity cangrow in real life from something
that is very personal tosomething that is for friends
and family, to something thatbecomes professional.
Dwight Spencer (09:46):
Beautifully put and, I think, something that a
lot of people that are listeningshould really take to heart.
You know, it's all about havingthe willingness to try, the
willingness to keep going atsomething.
Zorana Ivcevic Pringle (10:06):
And I love how you are starting with
that willingness, because I havedivided the book in three parts
.
How I think of the creativityjourney and the creative life is
.
Start with that willingnesspart, because we have to talk
(10:28):
about things that can bebarriers.
And I think I love how Maddoxhas brought up that we all can
be creative.
We have this potential, but noteverybody is living up to this
potential and it's not theirfault.
I really don't think it isbecause you just don't want to.
(10:53):
It is usually because of thethings that we have been
conditioned to think, to believein these misconceptions of
where creativity is From.
That you know, creativity isfor creatives creatives only I
happen to be in a different kindof role, so maybe not for me To
(11:22):
things that are just coloringhow we think.
Talking about confidence, forinstance, we know that we tend
to do things that we areconfident about, that we believe
(11:42):
we can do.
But there's this misconceptionthat you need to have full
confidence in something.
You don't need to have fullconfidence.
In terms of creativity,probably, it's not even possible
to have full confidence becauseyou're doing something new,
something that hasn't been donebefore.
How can you possibly be sure?
(12:03):
And you really need just enoughto say this could be possible
and then get started.
So that is my first kind of bigtopic in the book of what are
some things that prevent peoplefrom even embarking on creative
(12:23):
work, and once you know them,how you jump over them and then,
okay, you have started, but nowwhat are the strategies?
Some strategies that you canuse, some tools that would be
helpful, and I, verypurposefully, I, do not have a
methodology in my book.
I do not say here are the steps,six steps, 12 steps, whatever
(12:49):
steps of creative work, becausethat leaves an impression that
if you follow these steps, youare going to be successful.
It is going to happen.
There is no such certainty wecan have in creative work and I
want to, instead of steps, offertools and talk about this
(13:13):
process as being nonlinear.
Steps are also creating thisvision of, well, step one, step
two, step three, you areclimbing something.
(13:34):
And when I was younger, I usedto have these dreams of
elevators.
I don't know why, it's reallyfunny, but elevators that would
get you from second floor to30th and skip places, skip
numbers.
Well, that wasn't particularlypleasant of a dream for me, but
(14:01):
it's very much how creativityhappens.
You might start one place, youmight have an idea where you're
going, but you might end up at adifferent place, and that's not
necessarily a problem.
There is something to learnfrom the process.
And then the third part of thebook is saying OK, you have done
(14:24):
something creative, but youwere not alone and there is a
social aspect to creativity.
Let's acknowledge it, and Ilove that in your work you are
very much purposeful abouttalking about communities, and
the community is how we do notend up being a one-hit wonder.
Dwight Spencer (14:50):
That's right.
Zorana Ivcevic Pringle (14:50):
And nobody wants to be a one-hit
wonder, but we have to beexplicit about it.
Dwight Spencer (14:55):
Absolutely.
Maddox (14:57):
You know I've been familiar with the term one-hit
wonder in the music industry allmy life, but I never thought
about it the way you justintroduced it and I really like
that.
I mean it's a way to expresswhy community is important.
If you don't want to be aone-hit wonder, you need
community.
(15:17):
I have a question yeah, yeah,do you think that it's possible
that creativity in and of itselfis kind of a misconception?
I wonder sometimes if it seemslike I talk to so many people oh
(15:40):
, I'm not creative, and thereason I said is because they're
not making something with theirhands.
It's like people don't realizethat there's a whole aspect of
creativity that has nothing todo with art.
Yes, if you can solve a problem, you're creative.
Zorana Ivcevic Pringle (15:59):
Yes, thank you for bringing that up
it is.
There is this misconceptionthat creativity means art and
when people ask for examples ofcreativity, first thing that
comes to mind as symbols, asexamples of creative people, as
(16:24):
relating it to your personalexperience, is art.
Or you know, I study creativityand when you meet new people,
the first thing that comes up iswhat do you do?
And I share that.
I study creativity and mostcommon reaction to that is oh,
that's very interesting.
I am not the creative one, butmy insert relation.
(16:49):
You know, my sister, who is akindergarten teacher, is really
good at drawing and I'm likewell, I didn't say that I
studied drawing, I said Istudied creativity, and some
people particularly do not usethis word or cannot identify
(17:11):
with the word.
I have found that engineers, whosolve problems day in and day
out, just never think of theword creativity.
But that's what they are doing.
They are solving problems.
Those problems are open-ended.
(17:33):
They can have multiple kinds ofsolutions.
They are doing something thatis oftentimes original or hasn't
been done before.
It has to be effective for theproblem they have.
It has to solve something,build something.
So by all definitionalcomponents it is creative.
(17:55):
But because this idea of beingartistic is so closely
associated with creativity.
Dwight Spencer (18:04):
They never use the word, they never use the
word yeah, and I want to posesomething that is maybe
something for our listener toconsider, and I think that many
(18:32):
of the people who do make artare going to be familiar with
the works of Rick Rubin on thecreative act, of Julia Cameron's
the Artist's Way, which doeslay out a program that has steps
, but sneakily.
I think that it's really aboutthe process, and another one
that comes to mind is the bookby Chase Jarvis, the Never Play
(18:59):
it Safe, and it does a great jobof categorization, and the
reason I bring up these worksand there are others is because
this is not just a way of beingable to present research in a
popular science way.
This actually lays out methods.
(19:19):
This belongs alongside thosebooks, and the thing that I
would like to offer to thelistener is the application of
those principles.
Even though in theaforementioned authors they're
talking about art, they'reapplicable to life, they are
(19:40):
universal truths, and if youapply the same methods to
anything, you'd be amazed atwhat you can achieve and you're
in great company.
Zorana Ivcevic Pringle (19:52):
I was just going to say well, thank
you for that compliment.
Dwight Spencer (19:59):
Well-deserved.
Maddox (20:01):
Zorana, I have.
I'd like your take on something.
I have a theory that I work offof, but I'm just an everyday
person that's creative.
I'm not a researcher.
I don't have studies that backup what I'm saying particularly,
(20:22):
but I talked.
We're very social and we do alot of things where we meet
creatives of all kinds and youknow, I meet writers that won't
say I'm a writer, or poets thatwon't say I'm a poet, or just
creatives that won't say I'mcreative.
(20:42):
So many people are hesitant tosay that and I always have this
conversation.
I was talking to a young womanat a networking event.
She said I write poetry.
In a few minutes, poetry.
And I said a few minutes laterI said oh, blah, blah, blah,
being a poet.
She goes oh no, I'm not a poet,I just write poetry.
(21:02):
And I went why aren't you apoet?
Well, because if I say that I'ma poet, then I have to write
poetry, and if I don't say it,then I can write poetry when I
want to, but I don't have towrite poetry.
As soon as I say I'm a poet,then I have to and I'm like,
really, but for me, what I tellpeople and this is the part I
(21:28):
want your take on.
I always say you know, there'ssomething energetically really
powerful that happens.
You can say something.
It's something that I do like Ido creativity, I do painting, I
do poetry, whatever poetry,whatever.
(21:53):
We were with somebody recentlyand he said, wow, something like
y'all really are like coaches.
And I said it's not somethingwe do, it's who we are.
And he wrote us a long email acouple of days later, just like
really saying how that hadimpacted him, me, saying that it
impacted in me, saying that.
And so I try to get people toown whatever it is.
If you write, say that you're awriter.
(22:13):
If you write poetry, say thatyou're a poet.
If you're painting, say I'm anartist.
Because when we own it, there'ssomething energetically
powerful that transformssomething inside of us, it takes
it to the next level and ourconfidence grows.
(22:33):
Now, that's my theory, butyou're the researcher.
I would love to know your take.
Zorana Ivcevic Pringle (22:42):
I agree with you.
Something happens to us when weaccept that doing aspect as a
part of our identity.
So what you are saying issaying I am a poet is a
statement of identity versus Iwrite.
Poetry is just an action thathappens to be on a Tuesday
(23:04):
afternoon at 7.30 pm I'mrevealing here that I'm a night
person and not a morning person,but if your time is 5.30 am by
all means.
So when you say something ispart of your identity, then you
(23:25):
are creating commitment, and theperson you were talking to was
right in that that creates.
That creates the motivationalcomponent of oh, I am a writer,
I am a poet.
Therefore, this writing is notjust a side thing.
(23:47):
This is something that I shouldbe doing consistently and you
don't have to wait to feel likeit.
I think that people, especiallywhen talking about feelings and
emotions in relation tocreativity of all sorts, there's
(24:11):
this misconception that youhave to feel a particular kind
of thing in order to create.
You do not.
The better question is well,you have feelings.
How do you take them?
How do you use them?
How do you transform them inthe service of your creativity?
Maddox (24:36):
Beautiful.
I love it.
Well, thank you for affirmingwhat I've been telling people,
because I've sure been spreadingthat word about that.
Ownership plays a big role.
Zorana Ivcevic Pringle (24:50):
And it's empowering too, once you start
thinking of yourself as a poet,as a writer, that doubt, doubt
is omnipresent in creative work.
I was giving a keynote to aroom of designers, and these
(25:23):
were experienced designers andmuseum exhibit designers.
They do creativity, theybreathe it, they do it day in
and day out.
They think of themselves ascreatives.
And the first question I gotafter the talk was how do we
remove doubt from the creativeprocess?
And I am not going to sugarcoatit, I am not going to tell you
(25:44):
something that is not real.
You cannot remove it.
There is no removing it.
It is going to be there, butwhat you can do is get better at
coping with it.
Maddox (25:59):
And would we really want to remove all doubt, would we
really want certainty?
Because wouldn't that just killthe magic?
If you were certain, before youstarted, that you were going to
complete everything that youdid Boring.
Zorana Ivcevic Pringle (26:16):
I agree with you very much.
But we all differ right thatuncertainty is so unpleasant
emotionally and creating suchtension that it becomes
something that can weigh on them.
And thinking that you can getmore comfortable with
(26:40):
susceptible to doubt seems to begetting out there in the
culture as a message, and I hearit often expressed as you have
to get better with, you knowbeing uncomfortable.
(27:04):
I don't think so.
I don't think you have to getbetter at it, you don't have to
get more comfortable with it,you just have to accept it.
I recently came across thisbeautiful quote it became my
favorite quote from GeorgiaO'Keeffe and she said that she
(27:26):
was terrified she used the wordterrified of everything she ever
did in her life.
But that did not prevent herfrom doing it.
And I love this quote well fromone reason that I personally
identify with it.
I am, you know, on the neuroticside, so I tend to experience
(27:52):
things deeply and get veryintense, so I can relate to it
on a personal level.
But it's also saying hey, thefact that you are not
comfortable is not diagnostic ofyour ability to do something.
(28:12):
You can still go and do it, youcan still take steps towards it
.
And how liberating is that.
Dwight Spencer (28:21):
That's awesome.
I agree completely.
Maddox (28:22):
All the magic is outside of our comfort zone, completely
All the magic is outside of ourcomfort zone.
Dwight Spencer (28:28):
That's so true, and this echoes the conversation
we had with an artist, markRussell Jones, where the major
point that he was making wasthat the magic is in doing the
work.
It may be uncomfortable, youmay not know exactly what you're
(28:53):
going to do next, but you gainconfidence from the act, from a
bias toward action, fromactually doing something.
Zorana Ivcevic Pringle (29:00):
Oh, that is such a great point to make.
I think that there is this sortof confusion between cause and
effect sometimes in how peopletalk about creativity and
confidence, in that there'salmost an assumption that
confidence comes first create.
(29:23):
But we don't really start withconfidence, or we start with a
hint of confidence.
We start with thinking, oh,maybe we could do this or it's
worth trying within those terms,and then as we take steps, as
(29:45):
we try something, startexperimenting, then we start
saying, oh well, I probably canbecause, look, I have done this,
therefore I probably can do thenext thing, this progress, we
are learning from experience.
Dwight Spencer (30:02):
We are learning from observing what's happening
as we are taking these steps andbrought back to your dream of
the elevator, from observingwhat's happening as we are
taking these steps, and broughtback to your dream of the
elevator and I'm reminded of.
I've heard it said manydifferent ways.
A lot of people don't like toknow that the shortcut is.
There is no shortcut.
Zorana Ivcevic Pringle (30:22):
There is no shortcut.
Dwight Spencer (30:23):
The shortcut is the hard work.
Zorana Ivcevic Pringle (30:25):
No, there is no shortcut and that's
why, in talking to people, Ireally want to stress that there
are all these popular articlesout there.
In order to be more creative,here are three easy things.
Yeah, you can do easy thingsand maybe they're going to help
(30:49):
you with something, but mostfundamentally, you have to do
the hard work and it's alsogoing to take time.
Maddox (30:59):
Yes, you have to put in the reps.
As Dwight says, Most things inlife are a practiced thing.
It's a muscle you build.
Dwight Spencer (31:17):
Practice and building and time are all
intertwined.
Yeah, I know that it's been myexperience that I've seen the
whole the phenomenon of practice, and you know the power that
comes from getting a goodnight's sleep.
It's amazing, and I guess thiswas something that I felt most
(31:38):
strongly when I was learning toplay musical instruments.
There were things that requiredgreater technical difficulty,
and so I would execute and Iwould intellectually know what
needed to be done.
I would attempt them, but forwhatever reason, they were just
out of reach.
But for some reason, the nextday I would attempt them and it
(32:03):
was just a little bit easierafter having had the benefit of
the rest, and you know the wayof bringing it all together.
Zorana Ivcevic Pringle (32:11):
And I think that's a great example
also, at times, of creativeblock.
Yeah, and different people callthe creative block different
things and you know writers callit writer's block, called it
(32:32):
writer's block, and it'sessentially any kind of lack of
progress getting stuck when it'snot really about your ability.
It is just you have hit a wallin a particular task or or thing
that you have to do along yourjourney and there is a period in
order to get over it, to kindof squeeze through that tight
(32:56):
space, you need to bash yourhead against the wall.
My husband is also a scientistand he is working on a new
project and just recently wassaying how he has this vague
(33:19):
idea where he's going, but he'snot there yet and it seems that
he's not making any progress.
But he knows you first have tobash your head against the wall
before you can have an insightand there are things we can do
to kind of help our insight andit cannot happen without
(33:47):
prolonged time on trying tostare at the problem and play
with it and accepting the factthat you're not making progress.
But this is still necessary togo through.
Maddox (34:13):
I push, the more farther away.
It is that when I can stoptrying to make the breakthrough
happen and just breathe and knowthat everything happens in its
own time, then it comes whenit's supposed to not always on
my timeline.
Zorana Ivcevic Pringle (34:24):
Yeah, that is completely true, and
both are true in the same time,that it wouldn't come even on
its own timeline if you did notspend some time before.
But even when you spend sometime before, it might not come
exactly when you wish it to come.
When you wish it to come, youcan try some strategies.
(34:49):
You can, you know, take a break, reach out to other people to
try to get differentperspectives.
You can try to nudge it, andthat sometimes works.
But one thing that is constantis that you need to spend
(35:10):
substantial time on it.
Maddox (35:13):
Yeah.
Dwight Spencer (35:15):
There's no getting away from the reps.
Zorana Ivcevic Pringle (35:18):
No, getting away from the reps, and
that is we mentioned.
You know the emotional side ofcreative work and I think that
even when we know that's thecase because our society and we
live in that society is obsessedwith productivity and we live
(35:39):
in that society is obsessed withproductivity when we are not
making progress, we think,because it's been imposed on us,
that there's something wrongand that we are doing something
wrong.
We should have, we could have,and usually that is not the case
.
Creative work is difficult, bydefinition.
(36:03):
We are trying to do somethingoriginal that hasn't been done
before.
Therefore, there is noblueprint, no step-by-step, you
know, turn-by-turn instruction,and sometimes we get in that
labyrinth, we get into the, intodead end and we have to retrace
our steps and restart and playwith the pieces.
(36:26):
I, uh, you know, when I was Iwas writing a book and I knew
what I wanted to say.
I have these big visions, bigpieces of a vision, big visions,
big pieces of a vision.
But sometimes it would happenthat I would get stuck on just
how to put it together to beclear and fit and flow, and at
(36:52):
one particular time I just hadall the pieces, but it was just
a jumble and I ended up takingphysical scissors and cutting up
pieces of paper with printedtext and then sitting on the
floor and rearranging them untilthey you know those online
(37:14):
puzzles when you move pieces andthen they snap into place.
It was like that, it was like,oh, and then they snap into
place.
It was like that, it was like,oh, now it's snapping into place
.
Um, because it could happenthat we have the right pieces,
but we have to arrange them in aparticular way, or arranging
them can show us that there is ahole that we were not
(37:38):
previously aware of, and thatact of playing and rearranging
and exploring will help us getthere.
Dwight Spencer (37:50):
I can't help but be reminded of that study that
you shared about the designers,and I think it was in chicago,
where their task was to drawstill life, and they were some
of them were allowed tomanipulate what it was that they
(38:13):
were looking at, and look at itfrom every angle and touch,
touch and and feel and work theparts and, you know, do all
kinds of things that to anoutside observer, someone would
look and say, well, if they justneed to draw, why are they?
Why are they engaging all theirsenses like that?
What's going on?
Zorana Ivcevic Pringle (38:31):
That is one of my favorite studies of
all times because it goesagainst their preconceptions,
because it goes against ourpreconceptions.
So our preconception is that,okay, you are drawing.
Therefore, you just have yourmaterials and you have your
canvas and you start doing it.
(38:52):
And yes, some people do it likethat, but those who end up
being the most creative don't doit like that.
So in this particular study,everybody was asked to create a
still life and they were givenmore than 30 different objects
(39:12):
they could choose from, told,make still life with exact this.
But, given that choice and thatfreedom that oftentimes exists
when we are doing somethingcreative, there isn't just one
thing that you have to do.
And then the researchersobserved what people were doing,
(39:36):
and some of these objects weredifferent sizes and they were
different weights.
Some had mechanical parts, andso in a two-dimensional drawing,
in the end you're not going tosee anything moving.
So you can say, well, there'sno point in wasting time on
(39:59):
making these mechanical partswork and playing with them.
But it turns out, if you dosomething different happens to
your process and the finalproduct ends up being more
creative.
If you are weighing, comparing,arranging, stepping back,
rearranging and spending a lotof time on the process itself.
Maddox (40:24):
That's fascinating.
I have never heard of such athing.
Dwight Spencer (40:29):
It's profound and I think it kind of holds up
a lens to a lot of the ways thatpeople are trying to lean on AI
, the large language models, anduse them as kind of a, as a
shortcut, when I think there'sso much value in what it is that
(40:52):
we bring as living souls towhat we do.
Zorana Ivcevic Pringle (40:57):
Like we can look at something that's
produced by ai if it's a heavyai lift it has a signature we
can tell it's just kind ofgeneric or too polished or just
weird in a way and, in studiesthat have looked at what AI
(41:17):
produces, found that, on average, it might be considered by some
independent group of judges tobe more creative than something
that is produced by a randomgroup of people on average.
(41:43):
But creativity is not average.
Creativity is doing somethingthat departs from the average
and that's what the AI is, atthis time, not able to do this
time, not able to do Now.
You know, I am a Trekkie and Ileave it as a possibility of AI
(42:04):
being able to do things in thefuture that it's not able to do
now.
But it is so heavily reliant onwhat has been produced before
and its algorithm is such that,without being instructed and
(42:25):
played with, so we are havingthat that you have to play with
it, explore with it.
That's where your creativity iscoming in.
If you're using it as a tool,but on its own, it's going to
give you the next logical thingfrom where it's starting.
Maddox (42:46):
That makes sense.
I'm very selective about what Iuse AI for.
Dwight Spencer (42:53):
Rightfully so, because we've all seen those
things where it just has that AIlook to it, that AI feel Kind
of plastic.
Zorana Ivcevic Pringle (43:05):
I love that phrase.
Dwight Spencer (43:10):
Well, it's been an amazing conversation that
we've shared here and I'vereally enjoyed getting to spend
this time with you.
I'm really kind of curious aboutone of the things that we call
kind of the big question, andthat is the nature of these
(43:32):
conversations they can land onany ears that might open doors,
and I know that you've done awhole lot of wonderful things.
You've had a hand in shapingsome wonderful apps that help us
with creativity I'm thinking ofthe Messier app and also the
(43:54):
how we Feel app and you've donea lot of work that has required
um funding from from grants, uh,and you've you've done what a
lot of people would considerkind of the the pinnacle of of
several careers.
Uh, you, you've done a lot tobe proud of, but I know that
(44:18):
there are other things that youmight have ambitions for and
knowing that no one doesanything alone we're all a part
of an interconnected web.
We're all a part of one bigcommunity.
What is something that someonecould do that could be an unlock
(44:40):
for you?
That would really open up thepossibility for what would be
your next chapter.
Zorana Ivcevic Pringle (44:48):
I love this question.
It's such a beautiful questionand the point of connection and
building that community.
I have changed a lot in mypriorities in my career and in
one of those out-of-bodyexperiences.
Looking back, it is sosurprising because 10 years ago,
(45:16):
20 years ago most definitely, Icould never have imagined
writing a book.
Even 10 years ago I probablycould not.
So in this chapter, in thechapter that I hope for is
communicating.
It's talking to people like youand your audience and saying,
(45:39):
hey, I would love to talk toyour group.
I would love to dispel thesemyths about creativity that we
talked about in terms ofconfidence and what is the
nature of risks and how do wehandle that identity part and
(46:01):
that emotional part ofcreativity, because those are
not obvious and sometimes thestory out there ends up being
misleading.
So I would just love to talk toall your audiences.
You have an organization.
(46:22):
I would love to chat with you.
Maddox (46:27):
Wonderful and, if you like, we can put contact
information in the show notesZorana.
Zorana Ivcevic Pringle (46:37):
Thank you.
Maddox (46:39):
Or we can lead them to your website.
Is there a way that they canreach you once they come to your
website?
Zorana Ivcevic Pringle (46:44):
Yes, the best way to reach me is through
the website, and I would loveto connect.
Maddox (46:50):
Wonderful.
Thank you so much for spendingsome time with us today.
Zorana Ivcevic Pringle (46:58):
Thank you for having me.
It's been such a lovely chat.
Maddox (47:02):
Well, and the wisdom that you bring.
We are very grateful for yousharing that with us.
Zorana Ivcevic Pringle (47:08):
Thank you, Maddox, Thank you Dwight.
Maddox (47:10):
Thank you.
But what about developing creativity in
new ways, in new areas where youdidn't train?
You know, I didn't train to bea chef or pastry chef, but I
really wanted to bake.
So I started very small, inthings that were just tiny
little things that are justmeaningful, even noticeable to
(00:33):
me only.
And then it becomes, it grows,it becomes bigger.
Dwight Spencer (00:50):
Hello and welcome to another edition of
the For the Love of Creativespodcast.
I am your host and Connectionsand Community Guy Dwight, joined
by our other host andConnections and Community Guy
Maddox, and today our featuredguest is Zorana Izvichik-Pringle
.
Hello, Zorana, Welcome to Forthe Love of Creatives.
Zorana Ivcevic Pringle (01:13):
Thank you very much for having me.
Dwight Spencer (01:15):
We're so excited that you can join us.
It's a little bit of adeparture from the artists and
makers and musicians that wenormally have a chance to sit
down with, but we're especiallyexcited about having you here.
Could you tell our listeners alittle bit about who you are and
(01:37):
what you do?
Zorana Ivcevic Pringle (01:39):
Yeah, so I am a senior research
scientist at the Yale Center forEmotional Intelligence, so my
background is in science andsocial science, particularly
psychology, and I really studyeverything about people who
create.
So this is a perfect fit frommy standpoint.
(02:02):
Your audience are people whoare creating, and I just love to
learn about all of you and giveback to the community by
telling what I have learned andwhat are some unexpected things
that we don't normally talkabout when we talk about
creativity.
Dwight Spencer (02:23):
Oh, I'm excited, and I am especially excited now
for those of us who are notwatching on youtube.
Um, right over, uh yourshoulder is a wonderful book
that you've done, that you've uhwritten.
That does a great job ofunpacking a whole lot of things
about creativity, and you buriedthe lead.
(02:46):
I mean, what a wonderful bookthe Creativity Choice.
It's fabulous.
One of the things that reallystood out for me was how you
outlined something that we getto see played out.
Every time we go to a creativemornings event, they have a
manifesto that they recite thatstarts with the line everyone is
(03:13):
creative, and I really feltthat sense as I was turning the
pages of your wonderful book.
Zorana Ivcevic Pringle (03:21):
Oh, that is the best of compliments.
Thank you of your wonderfulbook.
Maddox (03:26):
Oh, that is the best of compliments, thank you.
Dwight Spencer (03:27):
Well, and just so everybody knows, there will
be a link to the book in theshow notes.
Yeah, so I know that.
A few quirky things that arepoints of commonality On this
particular episode.
It's just a little talk amongthree Trekkies.
Zorana Ivcevic Pringle (03:54):
Oh, that is a super special treat.
Maddox (04:00):
You are among friends.
I'm old enough that I watchedthe original series when it
aired live back in the 60s.
Zorana Ivcevic Pringle (04:09):
Oh wow, you definitely do not look old
enough for that.
Maddox (04:14):
Thank you.
Dwight Spencer (04:16):
Wow, I think Maddox has a new best friend.
Maddox (04:21):
I do indeed.
Yes, I've been a Trekkie mywhole life.
I've seen everything Trek thereis just about.
Zorana Ivcevic Pringle (04:34):
I think what attracts me to it is
imagination about the future.
It is imagination of what couldbe, of what better life, better
society would be like.
It's not about space at all.
It is really about the newfrontiers in humanity.
Dwight Spencer (04:53):
Beautifully said .
Maddox (04:54):
Yeah, I think it's very symbolic.
You know, I think that I'vealways, for many years now, said
the final frontier is not space.
In that show, it's the metaphorfor going within.
The final frontier is in here.
Yeah, people will go to themoon and back before they'll go
within.
Dwight Spencer (05:13):
It's crazy well, a wonderful thing about that
whole notion of everyone beingcreative is and it's kind of
funny.
I remember being a littlenervous about maybe you thinking
twice about joining us becausethe name of our podcast is For
(05:37):
the Love of Creatives and youmake very clear that you hate
the way that that kind of putsup a dividing line.
Zorana Ivcevic Pringle (05:48):
Yeah, thank you for bringing that up.
I think everybody who we ineveryday life call creatives
certainly are creative, but thatterm implies something that I
think is limiting.
Implies something that I thinkis limiting.
It implies that creativity isfor those people who are in
(06:10):
particular industries or inparticular roles, who are
designers, who are inadvertising, who are writing,
who are doing something in theartistic fields and most
definitely it is.
But creativity is more thanthat and I have worked with
(06:32):
people in different roles, indifferent industries where you
would not even suspectcreativity was possible.
But it is.
Maddox (06:43):
Creativity is in everything.
People have heard me say.
If you got out of bed, managedto get yourself dressed and
across town to your job today,you're creative.
Dwight Spencer (06:55):
Yeah, yeah, very much so, and I love the way
that you have shared some of theexamples of things that you've
done.
That showed your own creativejourney.
Like one of the things youshare early on in the book is
about how you would, um youwould actually bake, right so
(07:18):
and I believe you started firstvery carefully following recipes
and then you found um thefreedom to improvise it.
Zorana Ivcevic Pringle (07:29):
So when we are, when we think about
creativity, we first go too big.
We think of you know einstein'sand steve jobs's of this world
and you know coco ch, cocoChanel, and just name your
favorite creator in whatever ismeaningful to you.
(07:51):
But creativity is much more andit comes in different levels.
Psychologists distinguish thesefour levels of creativity and
my professional creativity is inscience, is in science,
communication, in telling youand your audience of what we
(08:13):
have learned in ways that areaccessible and meaningful.
So I have developed this kindof creativity through time,
through education, through, youknow, practice.
But what about developingcreativity in new ways, in new
(08:34):
areas where you didn't train?
You know, I didn't train to bea chef or pastry chef, but I
really wanted to bake.
So I started very small inthings that were just tiny,
little things that are justmeaningful, even noticeable to
me only.
And then it becomes, it grows,it becomes bigger.
(08:57):
I can now combine recipes, Iknow how to imagine things that
previously I could not imagine,and that's how oftentimes
creativity in everyday lifeworks in lots of different
things.
I have a friend who has startedjust writing a personal blog
(09:23):
and it became a popular one andthen a book deal came through
that.
So this is how creativity cangrow in real life from something
that is very personal tosomething that is for friends
and family, to something thatbecomes professional.
Dwight Spencer (09:46):
Beautifully put and, I think, something that a
lot of people that are listeningshould really take to heart.
You know, it's all about havingthe willingness to try, the
willingness to keep going atsomething.
Zorana Ivcevic Pringle (10:06):
And I love how you are starting with
that willingness, because I havedivided the book in three parts
.
How I think of the creativityjourney and the creative life is
.
Start with that willingnesspart, because we have to talk
(10:28):
about things that can bebarriers.
And I think I love how Maddoxhas brought up that we all can
be creative.
We have this potential, but noteverybody is living up to this
potential and it's not theirfault.
I really don't think it isbecause you just don't want to.
(10:53):
It is usually because of thethings that we have been
conditioned to think, to believein these misconceptions of
where creativity is From.
That you know, creativity isfor creatives creatives only I
happen to be in a different kindof role, so maybe not for me To
(11:22):
things that are just coloringhow we think.
Talking about confidence, forinstance, we know that we tend
to do things that we areconfident about, that we believe
(11:42):
we can do.
But there's this misconceptionthat you need to have full
confidence in something.
You don't need to have fullconfidence.
In terms of creativity,probably, it's not even possible
to have full confidence becauseyou're doing something new,
something that hasn't been donebefore.
How can you possibly be sure?
(12:03):
And you really need just enoughto say this could be possible
and then get started.
So that is my first kind of bigtopic in the book of what are
some things that prevent peoplefrom even embarking on creative
(12:23):
work, and once you know them,how you jump over them and then,
okay, you have started, but nowwhat are the strategies?
Some strategies that you canuse, some tools that would be
helpful, and I, verypurposefully, I, do not have a
methodology in my book.
I do not say here are the steps,six steps, 12 steps, whatever
(12:49):
steps of creative work, becausethat leaves an impression that
if you follow these steps, youare going to be successful.
It is going to happen.
There is no such certainty wecan have in creative work and I
want to, instead of steps, offertools and talk about this
(13:13):
process as being nonlinear.
Steps are also creating thisvision of, well, step one, step
two, step three, you areclimbing something.
(13:34):
And when I was younger, I usedto have these dreams of
elevators.
I don't know why, it's reallyfunny, but elevators that would
get you from second floor to30th and skip places, skip
numbers.
Well, that wasn't particularlypleasant of a dream for me, but
(14:01):
it's very much how creativityhappens.
You might start one place, youmight have an idea where you're
going, but you might end up at adifferent place, and that's not
necessarily a problem.
There is something to learnfrom the process.
And then the third part of thebook is saying OK, you have done
(14:24):
something creative, but youwere not alone and there is a
social aspect to creativity.
Let's acknowledge it, and Ilove that in your work you are
very much purposeful abouttalking about communities, and
the community is how we do notend up being a one-hit wonder.
Dwight Spencer (14:50):
That's right.
Zorana Ivcevic Pringle (14:50):
And nobody wants to be a one-hit
wonder, but we have to beexplicit about it.
Dwight Spencer (14:55):
Absolutely.
Maddox (14:57):
You know I've been familiar with the term one-hit
wonder in the music industry allmy life, but I never thought
about it the way you justintroduced it and I really like
that.
I mean it's a way to expresswhy community is important.
If you don't want to be aone-hit wonder, you need
community.
(15:17):
I have a question yeah, yeah,do you think that it's possible
that creativity in and of itselfis kind of a misconception?
I wonder sometimes if it seemslike I talk to so many people oh
(15:40):
, I'm not creative, and thereason I said is because they're
not making something with theirhands.
It's like people don't realizethat there's a whole aspect of
creativity that has nothing todo with art.
Yes, if you can solve a problem, you're creative.
Zorana Ivcevic Pringle (15:59):
Yes, thank you for bringing that up
it is.
There is this misconceptionthat creativity means art and
when people ask for examples ofcreativity, first thing that
comes to mind as symbols, asexamples of creative people, as
(16:24):
relating it to your personalexperience, is art.
Or you know, I study creativityand when you meet new people,
the first thing that comes up iswhat do you do?
And I share that.
I study creativity and mostcommon reaction to that is oh,
that's very interesting.
I am not the creative one, butmy insert relation.
(16:49):
You know, my sister, who is akindergarten teacher, is really
good at drawing and I'm likewell, I didn't say that I
studied drawing, I said Istudied creativity, and some
people particularly do not usethis word or cannot identify
(17:11):
with the word.
I have found that engineers, whosolve problems day in and day
out, just never think of theword creativity.
But that's what they are doing.
They are solving problems.
Those problems are open-ended.
(17:33):
They can have multiple kinds ofsolutions.
They are doing something thatis oftentimes original or hasn't
been done before.
It has to be effective for theproblem they have.
It has to solve something,build something.
So by all definitionalcomponents it is creative.
(17:55):
But because this idea of beingartistic is so closely
associated with creativity.
Dwight Spencer (18:04):
They never use the word, they never use the
word yeah, and I want to posesomething that is maybe
something for our listener toconsider, and I think that many
(18:32):
of the people who do make artare going to be familiar with
the works of Rick Rubin on thecreative act, of Julia Cameron's
the Artist's Way, which doeslay out a program that has steps
, but sneakily.
I think that it's really aboutthe process, and another one
that comes to mind is the bookby Chase Jarvis, the Never Play
(18:59):
it Safe, and it does a great jobof categorization, and the
reason I bring up these worksand there are others is because
this is not just a way of beingable to present research in a
popular science way.
This actually lays out methods.
(19:19):
This belongs alongside thosebooks, and the thing that I
would like to offer to thelistener is the application of
those principles.
Even though in theaforementioned authors they're
talking about art, they'reapplicable to life, they are
(19:40):
universal truths, and if youapply the same methods to
anything, you'd be amazed atwhat you can achieve and you're
in great company.
Zorana Ivcevic Pringle (19:52):
I was just going to say well, thank
you for that compliment.
Dwight Spencer (19:59):
Well-deserved.
Maddox (20:01):
Zorana, I have.
I'd like your take on something.
I have a theory that I work offof, but I'm just an everyday
person that's creative.
I'm not a researcher.
I don't have studies that backup what I'm saying particularly,
(20:22):
but I talked.
We're very social and we do alot of things where we meet
creatives of all kinds and youknow, I meet writers that won't
say I'm a writer, or poets thatwon't say I'm a poet, or just
creatives that won't say I'mcreative.
(20:42):
So many people are hesitant tosay that and I always have this
conversation.
I was talking to a young womanat a networking event.
She said I write poetry.
In a few minutes, poetry.
And I said a few minutes laterI said oh, blah, blah, blah,
being a poet.
She goes oh no, I'm not a poet,I just write poetry.
(21:02):
And I went why aren't you apoet?
Well, because if I say that I'ma poet, then I have to write
poetry, and if I don't say it,then I can write poetry when I
want to, but I don't have towrite poetry.
As soon as I say I'm a poet,then I have to and I'm like,
really, but for me, what I tellpeople and this is the part I
(21:28):
want your take on.
I always say you know, there'ssomething energetically really
powerful that happens.
You can say something.
It's something that I do like Ido creativity, I do painting, I
do poetry, whatever poetry,whatever.
(21:53):
We were with somebody recentlyand he said, wow, something like
y'all really are like coaches.
And I said it's not somethingwe do, it's who we are.
And he wrote us a long email acouple of days later, just like
really saying how that hadimpacted him, me, saying that it
impacted in me, saying that.
And so I try to get people toown whatever it is.
If you write, say that you're awriter.
(22:13):
If you write poetry, say thatyou're a poet.
If you're painting, say I'm anartist.
Because when we own it, there'ssomething energetically
powerful that transformssomething inside of us, it takes
it to the next level and ourconfidence grows.
(22:33):
Now, that's my theory, butyou're the researcher.
I would love to know your take.
Zorana Ivcevic Pringle (22:42):
I agree with you.
Something happens to us when weaccept that doing aspect as a
part of our identity.
So what you are saying issaying I am a poet is a
statement of identity versus Iwrite.
Poetry is just an action thathappens to be on a Tuesday
(23:04):
afternoon at 7.30 pm I'mrevealing here that I'm a night
person and not a morning person,but if your time is 5.30 am by
all means.
So when you say something ispart of your identity, then you
(23:25):
are creating commitment, and theperson you were talking to was
right in that that creates.
That creates the motivationalcomponent of oh, I am a writer,
I am a poet.
Therefore, this writing is notjust a side thing.
(23:47):
This is something that I shouldbe doing consistently and you
don't have to wait to feel likeit.
I think that people, especiallywhen talking about feelings and
emotions in relation tocreativity of all sorts, there's
(24:11):
this misconception that youhave to feel a particular kind
of thing in order to create.
You do not.
The better question is well,you have feelings.
How do you take them?
How do you use them?
How do you transform them inthe service of your creativity?
Maddox (24:36):
Beautiful.
I love it.
Well, thank you for affirmingwhat I've been telling people,
because I've sure been spreadingthat word about that.
Ownership plays a big role.
Zorana Ivcevic Pringle (24:50):
And it's empowering too, once you start
thinking of yourself as a poet,as a writer, that doubt, doubt
is omnipresent in creative work.
I was giving a keynote to aroom of designers, and these
(25:23):
were experienced designers andmuseum exhibit designers.
They do creativity, theybreathe it, they do it day in
and day out.
They think of themselves ascreatives.
And the first question I gotafter the talk was how do we
remove doubt from the creativeprocess?
And I am not going to sugarcoatit, I am not going to tell you
(25:44):
something that is not real.
You cannot remove it.
There is no removing it.
It is going to be there, butwhat you can do is get better at
coping with it.
Maddox (25:59):
And would we really want to remove all doubt, would we
really want certainty?
Because wouldn't that just killthe magic?
If you were certain, before youstarted, that you were going to
complete everything that youdid Boring.
Zorana Ivcevic Pringle (26:16):
I agree with you very much.
But we all differ right thatuncertainty is so unpleasant
emotionally and creating suchtension that it becomes
something that can weigh on them.
And thinking that you can getmore comfortable with
(26:40):
susceptible to doubt seems to begetting out there in the
culture as a message, and I hearit often expressed as you have
to get better with, you knowbeing uncomfortable.
(27:04):
I don't think so.
I don't think you have to getbetter at it, you don't have to
get more comfortable with it,you just have to accept it.
I recently came across thisbeautiful quote it became my
favorite quote from GeorgiaO'Keeffe and she said that she
(27:26):
was terrified she used the wordterrified of everything she ever
did in her life.
But that did not prevent herfrom doing it.
And I love this quote well fromone reason that I personally
identify with it.
I am, you know, on the neuroticside, so I tend to experience
(27:52):
things deeply and get veryintense, so I can relate to it
on a personal level.
But it's also saying hey, thefact that you are not
comfortable is not diagnostic ofyour ability to do something.
(28:12):
You can still go and do it, youcan still take steps towards it
.
And how liberating is that.
Dwight Spencer (28:21):
That's awesome.
I agree completely.
Maddox (28:22):
All the magic is outside of our comfort zone, completely
All the magic is outside of ourcomfort zone.
Dwight Spencer (28:28):
That's so true, and this echoes the conversation
we had with an artist, markRussell Jones, where the major
point that he was making wasthat the magic is in doing the
work.
It may be uncomfortable, youmay not know exactly what you're
(28:53):
going to do next, but you gainconfidence from the act, from a
bias toward action, fromactually doing something.
Zorana Ivcevic Pringle (29:00):
Oh, that is such a great point to make.
I think that there is this sortof confusion between cause and
effect sometimes in how peopletalk about creativity and
confidence, in that there'salmost an assumption that
confidence comes first create.
(29:23):
But we don't really start withconfidence, or we start with a
hint of confidence.
We start with thinking, oh,maybe we could do this or it's
worth trying within those terms,and then as we take steps, as
(29:45):
we try something, startexperimenting, then we start
saying, oh well, I probably canbecause, look, I have done this,
therefore I probably can do thenext thing, this progress, we
are learning from experience.
Dwight Spencer (30:02):
We are learning from observing what's happening
as we are taking these steps andbrought back to your dream of
the elevator, from observingwhat's happening as we are
taking these steps, and broughtback to your dream of the
elevator and I'm reminded of.
I've heard it said manydifferent ways.
A lot of people don't like toknow that the shortcut is.
There is no shortcut.
Zorana Ivcevic Pringle (30:22):
There is no shortcut.
Dwight Spencer (30:23):
The shortcut is the hard work.
Zorana Ivcevic Pringle (30:25):
No, there is no shortcut and that's
why, in talking to people, Ireally want to stress that there
are all these popular articlesout there.
In order to be more creative,here are three easy things.
Yeah, you can do easy thingsand maybe they're going to help
(30:49):
you with something, but mostfundamentally, you have to do
the hard work and it's alsogoing to take time.
Maddox (30:59):
Yes, you have to put in the reps.
As Dwight says, Most things inlife are a practiced thing.
It's a muscle you build.
Dwight Spencer (31:17):
Practice and building and time are all
intertwined.
Yeah, I know that it's been myexperience that I've seen the
whole the phenomenon of practice, and you know the power that
comes from getting a goodnight's sleep.
It's amazing, and I guess thiswas something that I felt most
(31:38):
strongly when I was learning toplay musical instruments.
There were things that requiredgreater technical difficulty,
and so I would execute and Iwould intellectually know what
needed to be done.
I would attempt them, but forwhatever reason, they were just
out of reach.
But for some reason, the nextday I would attempt them and it
(32:03):
was just a little bit easierafter having had the benefit of
the rest, and you know the wayof bringing it all together.
Zorana Ivcevic Pringle (32:11):
And I think that's a great example
also, at times, of creativeblock.
Yeah, and different people callthe creative block different
things and you know writers callit writer's block, called it
(32:32):
writer's block, and it'sessentially any kind of lack of
progress getting stuck when it'snot really about your ability.
It is just you have hit a wallin a particular task or or thing
that you have to do along yourjourney and there is a period in
order to get over it, to kindof squeeze through that tight
(32:56):
space, you need to bash yourhead against the wall.
My husband is also a scientistand he is working on a new
project and just recently wassaying how he has this vague
(33:19):
idea where he's going, but he'snot there yet and it seems that
he's not making any progress.
But he knows you first have tobash your head against the wall
before you can have an insightand there are things we can do
to kind of help our insight andit cannot happen without
(33:47):
prolonged time on trying tostare at the problem and play
with it and accepting the factthat you're not making progress.
But this is still necessary togo through.
Maddox (34:13):
I push, the more farther away.
It is that when I can stoptrying to make the breakthrough
happen and just breathe and knowthat everything happens in its
own time, then it comes whenit's supposed to not always on
my timeline.
Zorana Ivcevic Pringle (34:24):
Yeah, that is completely true, and
both are true in the same time,that it wouldn't come even on
its own timeline if you did notspend some time before.
But even when you spend sometime before, it might not come
exactly when you wish it to come.
When you wish it to come, youcan try some strategies.
(34:49):
You can, you know, take a break, reach out to other people to
try to get differentperspectives.
You can try to nudge it, andthat sometimes works.
But one thing that is constantis that you need to spend
(35:10):
substantial time on it.
Maddox (35:13):
Yeah.
Dwight Spencer (35:15):
There's no getting away from the reps.
Zorana Ivcevic Pringle (35:18):
No, getting away from the reps, and
that is we mentioned.
You know the emotional side ofcreative work and I think that
even when we know that's thecase because our society and we
live in that society is obsessedwith productivity and we live
(35:39):
in that society is obsessed withproductivity when we are not
making progress, we think,because it's been imposed on us,
that there's something wrongand that we are doing something
wrong.
We should have, we could have,and usually that is not the case
.
Creative work is difficult, bydefinition.
(36:03):
We are trying to do somethingoriginal that hasn't been done
before.
Therefore, there is noblueprint, no step-by-step, you
know, turn-by-turn instruction,and sometimes we get in that
labyrinth, we get into the, intodead end and we have to retrace
our steps and restart and playwith the pieces.
(36:26):
I, uh, you know, when I was Iwas writing a book and I knew
what I wanted to say.
I have these big visions, bigpieces of a vision, big visions,
big pieces of a vision.
But sometimes it would happenthat I would get stuck on just
how to put it together to beclear and fit and flow, and at
(36:52):
one particular time I just hadall the pieces, but it was just
a jumble and I ended up takingphysical scissors and cutting up
pieces of paper with printedtext and then sitting on the
floor and rearranging them untilthey you know those online
(37:14):
puzzles when you move pieces andthen they snap into place.
It was like that, it was like,oh, and then they snap into
place.
It was like that, it was like,oh, now it's snapping into place
.
Um, because it could happenthat we have the right pieces,
but we have to arrange them in aparticular way, or arranging
them can show us that there is ahole that we were not
(37:38):
previously aware of, and thatact of playing and rearranging
and exploring will help us getthere.
Dwight Spencer (37:50):
I can't help but be reminded of that study that
you shared about the designers,and I think it was in chicago,
where their task was to drawstill life, and they were some
of them were allowed tomanipulate what it was that they
(38:13):
were looking at, and look at itfrom every angle and touch,
touch and and feel and work theparts and, you know, do all
kinds of things that to anoutside observer, someone would
look and say, well, if they justneed to draw, why are they?
Why are they engaging all theirsenses like that?
What's going on?
Zorana Ivcevic Pringle (38:31):
That is one of my favorite studies of
all times because it goesagainst their preconceptions,
because it goes against ourpreconceptions.
So our preconception is that,okay, you are drawing.
Therefore, you just have yourmaterials and you have your
canvas and you start doing it.
(38:52):
And yes, some people do it likethat, but those who end up
being the most creative don't doit like that.
So in this particular study,everybody was asked to create a
still life and they were givenmore than 30 different objects
(39:12):
they could choose from, told,make still life with exact this.
But, given that choice and thatfreedom that oftentimes exists
when we are doing somethingcreative, there isn't just one
thing that you have to do.
And then the researchersobserved what people were doing,
(39:36):
and some of these objects weredifferent sizes and they were
different weights.
Some had mechanical parts, andso in a two-dimensional drawing,
in the end you're not going tosee anything moving.
So you can say, well, there'sno point in wasting time on
(39:59):
making these mechanical partswork and playing with them.
But it turns out, if you dosomething different happens to
your process and the finalproduct ends up being more
creative.
If you are weighing, comparing,arranging, stepping back,
rearranging and spending a lotof time on the process itself.
Maddox (40:24):
That's fascinating.
I have never heard of such athing.
Dwight Spencer (40:29):
It's profound and I think it kind of holds up
a lens to a lot of the ways thatpeople are trying to lean on AI
, the large language models, anduse them as kind of a, as a
shortcut, when I think there'sso much value in what it is that
(40:52):
we bring as living souls towhat we do.
Zorana Ivcevic Pringle (40:57):
Like we can look at something that's
produced by ai if it's a heavyai lift it has a signature we
can tell it's just kind ofgeneric or too polished or just
weird in a way and, in studiesthat have looked at what AI
(41:17):
produces, found that, on average, it might be considered by some
independent group of judges tobe more creative than something
that is produced by a randomgroup of people on average.
(41:43):
But creativity is not average.
Creativity is doing somethingthat departs from the average
and that's what the AI is, atthis time, not able to do this
time, not able to do Now.
You know, I am a Trekkie and Ileave it as a possibility of AI
(42:04):
being able to do things in thefuture that it's not able to do
now.
But it is so heavily reliant onwhat has been produced before
and its algorithm is such that,without being instructed and
(42:25):
played with, so we are havingthat that you have to play with
it, explore with it.
That's where your creativity iscoming in.
If you're using it as a tool,but on its own, it's going to
give you the next logical thingfrom where it's starting.
Maddox (42:46):
That makes sense.
I'm very selective about what Iuse AI for.
Dwight Spencer (42:53):
Rightfully so, because we've all seen those
things where it just has that AIlook to it, that AI feel Kind
of plastic.
Zorana Ivcevic Pringle (43:05):
I love that phrase.
Dwight Spencer (43:10):
Well, it's been an amazing conversation that
we've shared here and I'vereally enjoyed getting to spend
this time with you.
I'm really kind of curious aboutone of the things that we call
kind of the big question, andthat is the nature of these
(43:32):
conversations they can land onany ears that might open doors,
and I know that you've done awhole lot of wonderful things.
You've had a hand in shapingsome wonderful apps that help us
with creativity I'm thinking ofthe Messier app and also the
(43:54):
how we Feel app and you've donea lot of work that has required
um funding from from grants, uh,and you've you've done what a
lot of people would considerkind of the the pinnacle of of
several careers.
Uh, you, you've done a lot tobe proud of, but I know that
(44:18):
there are other things that youmight have ambitions for and
knowing that no one doesanything alone we're all a part
of an interconnected web.
We're all a part of one bigcommunity.
What is something that someonecould do that could be an unlock
(44:40):
for you?
That would really open up thepossibility for what would be
your next chapter.
Zorana Ivcevic Pringle (44:48):
I love this question.
It's such a beautiful questionand the point of connection and
building that community.
I have changed a lot in mypriorities in my career and in
one of those out-of-bodyexperiences.
Looking back, it is sosurprising because 10 years ago,
(45:16):
20 years ago most definitely, Icould never have imagined
writing a book.
Even 10 years ago I probablycould not.
So in this chapter, in thechapter that I hope for is
communicating.
It's talking to people like youand your audience and saying,
(45:39):
hey, I would love to talk toyour group.
I would love to dispel thesemyths about creativity that we
talked about in terms ofconfidence and what is the
nature of risks and how do wehandle that identity part and
(46:01):
that emotional part ofcreativity, because those are
not obvious and sometimes thestory out there ends up being
misleading.
So I would just love to talk toall your audiences.
You have an organization.
(46:22):
I would love to chat with you.
Maddox (46:27):
Wonderful and, if you like, we can put contact
information in the show notesZorana.
Zorana Ivcevic Pringle (46:37):
Thank you.
Maddox (46:39):
Or we can lead them to your website.
Is there a way that they canreach you once they come to your
website?
Zorana Ivcevic Pringle (46:44):
Yes, the best way to reach me is through
the website, and I would loveto connect.
Maddox (46:50):
Wonderful.
Thank you so much for spendingsome time with us today.
Zorana Ivcevic Pringle (46:58):
Thank you for having me.
It's been such a lovely chat.
Maddox (47:02):
Well, and the wisdom that you bring.
We are very grateful for yousharing that with us.
Zorana Ivcevic Pringle (47:08):
Thank you, Maddox, Thank you Dwight.
Maddox (47:10):
Thank you.
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