Make Traveling with Firearms Normal Again Featuring Featuring Deviant Ollam

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Ladies and gentlemen, may I have your attention, please?
The show starts in 10, 9,

Speaker 2 (00:19):
8, 7, 6, 5, 4,
3, 2, 1, go.

Speaker 1 (00:35):
Welcome to For the Love of Guns, your go-to podcast for everything firearms.
From the people to the products and the priorities that shape community, whether you're a seasoned gunsmith or a shooting enthusiast, we're here to keep you locked, loaded, and in the know.
Here's your host for the show, Jason Schaller.

Speaker 3 (00:53):
You know, traveling with firearms is sometimes difficult, and I have someone with me who's traveled with firearms a lot more than I have.
Every time I leave the state of Montana, even when I'm inside the state of Montana, there's a gun with me.
But Deviant here, he is kind of a little crossover between my night job here as a podcast host and YouTuber and my day job in cybersecurity.

(01:18):
He has got some great talks about traveling with firearms and really just physical security of your firearms.
Deviant, thanks for taking some time out to talk to us today.

Speaker 4 (01:30):
Well, thank you for having me on.
This has been a, I guess we'd call it a passion project of mine, but since it's gone on a decade or more now, is that really passion project or just part of who I am at this point?
The flying with firearms guy.

Speaker 3 (01:43):
Right.
I mean, it's funny because I remember, it's funny because we were talking just off the air and I'm going to bring it up for everybody here.
This is a speech you gave at DEF CON for everybody in the gun world.
They probably don't know what DEF CON is.
It's one of the hacking conferences.

(02:03):
But this is from your packing in the skies as I get over to the right tab.
And I love this thing because you were talking about cases.
Maybe.
I think that's pieces.

(02:26):
Yes.
And one more.
So it was funny because you had talked about these cases before.
Tell us, give everybody the elevator speech about those cases.

Speaker 4 (02:45):
Yeah.
So that was back.
I mean, Christ, that video is almost 20 years ago.
That's got to be 15, 20 years back.
So that's back when I was a penniless hacker kid going to every con imaginable.
and I didn't have the money that I do now for like Pelican cases or nice rolling, you know,
plastic cases. And to fly with a firearm, your, your possessions, everything has to be

(03:07):
in a hard sided container, which a lot of suitcases are just sort of that spongy,

Speaker 2 (03:12):
you know,

Speaker 4 (03:12):
nylon or crappy rubber.

Speaker 2 (03:15):
So I

Speaker 4 (03:16):
wanted to get something rugged and I didn't want to spend a
lot. So I went to a surplus company and those are like 81 millimeter mortar cases, I guess,
or 41 million for the 41 millimeter mortar cases i think so yeah i just found these mortar cases
and i welded like a hasp on them and i put a big lock on them and i was like all right this will
work and it's you know it was hell dragging them around but they definitely

Speaker 3 (03:39):
they survived they

Speaker 4 (03:41):
survived for years and years and years of going everywhere all over the country and around the
world

Speaker 3 (03:45):
well it's funny because you knew your cases were coming before they ever hit the carousel
You hear banging around.
That was just awesome.
The first time I saw that, I just laughed.
Because the first one came down, that poor suitcase that it hit.

Speaker 4 (04:05):
That's why my cases are still hard-sided to this day,
even though I travel with, you know, even like Pelican Air or something.
People look at it, oh, I bet those cases can sure take a lot.
And I say, yep, you travel as much as my wife and I do.
You're going to be grateful that your case can take a lot.
Because, man, they take a pounding.

Speaker 3 (04:22):
Now, I know from traveling with firearms, it's interesting, right? Because it really changed over probably the past five years. They changed some things up. I remember, guys, five years? No, maybe even 10 years. I'm trying to think of the last time. Yeah, it was probably about 10 years ago.

(04:43):
So I remember I was flying over to into D.C.
I was flying into Reagan National and there was like this big zip tie around my case now.

Speaker 2 (04:53):
And it's like I'm

Speaker 3 (04:54):
sitting there going.
How the hell am I going to cut that off?
Because my knife is also inside that case, too.
So, yeah, it was it was fun getting to the getting back to the hotel and trying to figure out how to get my firearm and my knife out of this case.
You're flying Delta on a flight

Speaker 2 (05:12):
like that.
It was

Speaker 3 (05:14):
flying Delta.
Talk a little bit about the basics of flying with a firearm.

Speaker 4 (05:21):
Sure.
So there's a great deal of hesitancy around many things relating to air travel, especially
if you're not a frequent flyer.
People generally view air travel as sort of this adversarial endurance challenge where
it's a series of little slights and hassles.
And for some people, if you don't have airline status or whatever, it can be true.

(05:42):
add to that people's hesitancy about, well, my gun and a different legislative district. I'm not
from my home state. I don't know. There's a lot of people who have concerns and they say,
I would never fly with a gun or, oh, it would just be too much trouble. I don't want that.
So the big thing I like to demystify and dispel is the idea that flying with a firearm is hard

(06:05):
or bad, any more than regular commercial air travel. If you like flying, which I do,
Flying with a firearm doesn't really introduce a lot of trouble.
All air carriers, to my knowledge, all domestic air carriers, are required to accept checked bags under the FAA's regulations for checked bags,
which includes the provision for how a checked firearm is to be processed.

(06:29):
We are still a country with freedoms that allow you to travel state to state with your firearm.
That includes states that aren't as firearm friendly.
We'll get to some details there.
people are, well, I'm going to New York or what I could never, if I live in New Jersey. Well,
we'll talk about that. I'm from New Jersey, been out of New York plenty of times. As I like to say,
I've flown in and out of all 50 States with my firearms, except for one. And that one state is

(06:53):
Delaware, which has no commercial

Speaker 3 (06:55):
airfield. Yeah. I was about to say the only, the only airfield is,
is, is up there just outside of Wilmington. And it's not, it's, it's a civil airport. It's not
really a commercial airport.

Speaker 4 (07:06):
Yeah. Yeah. Every now and then somebody tries to restart some,
some commercial limited service in and out of delaware down in

Speaker 2 (07:12):
dover or

Speaker 4 (07:13):
something but it never
really takes off but yeah you can fly in and out with ease as long as you follow edicts that are
mostly spelled out by the faa and then and we can talk about this of course every airline has their
own uniquenesses where they expect it to you know well it's only so many guns you can have no the
ammo has to be with it not with it the ammo has to be this or that but broadly speaking the faa is

(07:36):
kind of about a three-point process. One, your firearm has to be unloaded and packed properly.
So packed without the bullets in the gun. I've had air carriers tell me that an empty magazine
can't be in the gun. Well, the magazine's in the gun. It's loaded. It's an empty freaking
magazine.

Speaker 2 (07:55):
The EPA

Speaker 4 (07:56):
just says the gun has to be unloaded. They don't talk about where the magazine
is. So the gun has to be unloaded. The gun has to be locked in a hard-sided lockable case,
And we can talk about details about they have a lot of specifics on how the case, you know, you can't stick a finger in it if it's, you know, there's the finger test.
But the hard-sided case.
And then if you are traveling with ammunition, the ammunition and how it is packed is specified a little bit by the FAA.

(08:22):
This is where we get a lot of air carriers raising more eyebrows or having odd edge cases.
But in general, they don't want loose ammo rolling around in your case.

Speaker 2 (08:30):
The FAA

Speaker 4 (08:31):
says ammunition, you can't have a ton of it.
You can have up to 11 pounds of ammunition, which is a surprising amount.
I've run a whole gun match with 11 pounds easily.
But ammunition has to be in a box so it's not loose and rolling around.
And ask me more questions about ammo because that's where it gets strange with some carriers.
But if you follow those three rules and you declare during check-in, I'm flying with a firearm today.

(08:57):
And use smart language.
You don't talk to a stranger who's half distracted.
You say, excuse me, I got a gun.

Speaker 2 (09:02):
You say,

Speaker 4 (09:03):
excuse me, this checked bag here, this is a special item.
And they say, really?
Yeah, I'm flying with a firearm today.
If you declare it and you're following those broadly, those three bullet points, you should be pretty smooth.
And then we can talk all about the edge cases and the oddities and all the ways that, well, it's kind of smooth.
Well, this, that.
Well, I can tell you all the ways that things are a little hokey pokey.

(09:25):
But in general, the gun and you will get to your destination without problems.

Speaker 3 (09:31):
And it's funny because, you know, I think about when I travel with a firearm, there's a lot of things that I've talked to people about.
I go, I never say gun, right?
Like if I'm pulled over and law enforcement is coming up and you're in a state where you need to declare, you don't say I have a gun, right?

(09:54):
Because you never know about the partner on the other side of the car hears the word gun and instantly freaks.
it's officer, I have my sidearm with me, or I am traveling with a firearm in the vehicle or on me.
You don't, you just don't say gun. And then for me, when I check in, it's,
yeah, usually, usually I'm carrying my one of my SIG. So it's like, I have my sidearm with the,

(10:20):
I'm checking in my sidearm, just something that's now here in Montana, it's not that big of a deal.
I mean, there's so many guns coming in and out for hunters in Montana.
But coming back is a different story because I can tell you coming back through Allentown after seeing my mom, it gets a little weird.

(10:43):
It got a little weird there, especially since I left my case out in the living room and there was a fire in the fireplace.
So it put off a lot of carbon.
Yeah.
And I did get pulled aside for me and my bags did get pulled aside for,

Speaker 2 (11:05):
let's just say,

Speaker 3 (11:07):
extra swabbing of things because they're looking for explosives.
But yeah, generally it's not hard.
I found it's not very hard.
The one thing that I found interesting with traveling with a firearm is locks.
You have no idea how many times I've seen people just take a TSA lock, put it on and send their gun through.

(11:30):
And I'm like, wow, that's, you know, because they think, OK, everything's got to be a TSA lock, except for when you're talking about your firearms.

Speaker 4 (11:43):
Yeah, officially. And again, people will sort of stand on ceremony and point at a piece of paper and you'll get a lot of local this airport or this TSA screener.
They'll say, well, we don't do it that way here. So there's a lot of room for misinterpretation.
The official policy is only the customer or the owner of that bag should retain the quote,

(12:04):
retain the key or combination. Now, does that mean that it shouldn't be, because if it's a TSA lock,
as you point out, there's other keys out there. There's plenty of master keys.
The TSA has flip-flopped on this a lot and sometimes explicitly said you should use a TSA
lock other times they've explicitly said tsa locks do not qualify there are i think the bet

(12:25):
the most appropriate interpretation under the policy is well no it shouldn't be a widely master
keyed and compromised i mean i have literally i have tsa keys on my key chain right here yeah
you can like you can buy them on the internet i mean so i don't think it's in the spirit of the
the law to use a TSA lock. And many times I have seen TSA locks just either unlocked by a screener

(12:50):
and then like lost or not relocked. Sometimes they're in the luggage because the TSA is just,
they don't care. They're not going to relock your case. Who gives a damn? So yes, I recommend,
especially with high value firearms, using proper non-TSA locks. But you're absolutely right. You
see loads of customers who just say, well, this TSA lock is fine. That's what you're supposed to use
on luggage.

Speaker 3 (13:11):
Yeah. What's funny is another thing that I do with mine, because mine usually go
through with a Pelican case, is when I close it and lock it and put my locks on, I also take zip
ties and put them through the holes. Because I will tell you, I have never got my case on the
other side without those zip ties missing. Right.

Speaker 4 (13:33):
And you know instantly someone, hey,
Someone's been in here.
Let's verify

Speaker 3 (13:37):
they did their job right.
Because what they'll do is, you know, there's a little bit of play.
They'll cut them open and try to get into that case to see what's in the case.
Forget that they're like looking at it on an x-ray, right?
I mean, they just never make it with those zip ties through.
Yeah.
I mean, it's funny.

(13:58):
It's funny the things that happen to your luggage in the airline system.
Now, you did a video not that long ago where your firearms showed up other than with

Speaker 4 (14:10):
you.
Yep.
Law of large numbers on that one.
My wife and I both fly.
We used to do almost like 100 segments a year.
Nowadays, it's a little.
We have more direct flights now that we switch to Alaska Air.
We're up in the Pacific Northwest.
But still, we're in the air once a week or more.

(14:32):
And you do enough segments, you're going to have the occasional mishandled bag where it's misrouted or delayed or it doesn't make a connection, something like that.
And on those instances, I have been a huge advocate nowadays of things like little tracker tools.
So this is a luggage tracker made by Pebble B, my wife being an iPhone person.

(14:54):
She has AirTags.
We have some cases that have both in them.
And it's nice to be able to say, well, did my bag board?
No, it didn't board the plane.
All right.
I guess I'll have to check to the baggage office on that one.
And you can watch it, catch up with you, or catch another flight.
Fortunately, that's rare.
Most bags make it.
But when they don't, yeah, either the case being delivered a week later,

(15:15):
usually a couple days later on the outside, or sometimes it'll arrive with you,
but then they'll say, well, it's going to be on that bag belt.
Well, no, it's not on the bag.
We pulled it over here.
That's my biggest gripe, honestly, is lack of consistency on how airlines,
even within the same carrier, treat their luggage that has firearms.

(15:36):
Some say we always pull the bag.
We always pull the bag with guns.
That's why we have it in our system, United, Delta.
They mark it in their system.
In fact, Delta, they have the CAGPT, check and give protection to.
We always pull it.
And sometimes it just winds up on the belt.
I got the other problem with Alaska,
that now even my Pelican cases that don't have guns in them,

(15:59):
Anything that looks like it might be a gun, Alaska Air will sometimes pull it in big airports.
So sometimes it's behind the desk.
So yeah, I'll walk around the airport playing this game, trying to find where the bag is.
And then I say, it's right behind that wall.
I know.
I can make it make sound.
Just get the freaking bag, please.

Speaker 3 (16:17):
Well, it's funny because I'm thinking of when I travel.
So when I flew into D.C., I mean, it's like the nation's capital, right?
And yeah, my bag came banging down.
I can hear it because it's a plastic Pelican.
You can hear him banging around.

(16:38):
I'm sitting there going, I just know that's my gun because I've heard that before.
There it comes right down into the carousel.
I'm like, all right, pick it up and go.
But it's so funny because, and that's flying Delta, they're supposed to pull it.
But flying back into Helena, I've never had my gun not walked out to me.

Speaker 4 (16:58):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (16:59):
It's just it's so funny hearing other people talk about the inconsistencies of the airline systems.
It's just absolutely.

Speaker 4 (17:10):
And for all your listeners, we should point out many of them might be marveling.
Oh, my gosh. Washington, D.C., very restricted on. Remember, D.C. has no airports.
Both both major D.C. airports are technically in the Commonwealth of Virginia.
I was in Northern

Speaker 3 (17:25):
Virginia. Yeah, exactly. Both of them are, well, both of them are outside the
Beltway. But yeah, it's funny because when I went out there, I was going to, I was out there for
training. And that was, it was, it was interesting because I had my firearm with me. And that was

(17:48):
when there was the shooting at the senator's softball game yeah i

Speaker 2 (17:53):
remember that and it was

Speaker 3 (17:54):
and it and that was like two miles away from where i was a training for
and it's like yep this is exactly why and yes my permit is recognized in virginia
um and i was just sitting there going yep this is exactly why you travel with a firearm because you
have no idea what's going on.

Speaker 4 (18:17):
I really do value, even when I'm, as you point out, I'm not going to
a shooting competition. And I get that as comments on some of my videos where I talk about this,
usually by people who aren't from this country. And they say, do you really need your gun everywhere?
I mean, I know it's not a need. Needs a really strong word. I'd prefer to have it around. Also,

(18:37):
So I just prefer to normalize traveling with a firearm, just your average airport employee.
Let's say you mentioned Allentown or something where they're, you know, well, we don't see as many guns around here on the eastern seaboard.
I want you to see this one.

Speaker 2 (18:51):
It's just a

Speaker 4 (18:52):
thing that still happens in America.

Speaker 3 (18:54):
Yeah, I mean, it is normal.
There's no laws being broken there.
And I think that's important to say.
I don't need to.
This is my choice.
And that's just the way it is.
One of the things that I found interesting with talking to people where they talk about traveling with your firearm is, well, where I'm going, I'm not allowed to have the firearm with me, so I just lock it up in this safe in my room.

(19:24):
And I just, yeah, you're already laughing, right?
Yeah.
Talk a little bit about that.
So everybody realized Deviant is a physical security expert.
I mean, his talks are amazing.
The stuff that he does, I mean, I remember the first time I heard the word elevator hacking was from his mouth in my data center here in Helena.

(19:51):
I'm like, wow, that's a thing.
But talk about these safes because these are not the greatest safes

Speaker 4 (19:57):
in the world.
That's correct.
So the trouble of how do I securely store something on the road is its own unique question.
And it applies to even something like sensitive corporate assets, a laptop, a work phone.
You know, these are devices that might have important data on them, hopefully with full
disk encryption.
And you say, well, I don't want to just trust it laying around in my hotel room if it gets

(20:18):
stolen or swiped.
Hotel break-ins are a thing, mostly with underdoor tools and such these days.
That's a very common way that criminals will do it.
In your hotel, there used to be a time when most hotels in this country, especially very nice ones, would have what was informally referred to as the house safe.
And it was really a nest of safe deposit boxes that would be either behind the front desk or in the manager's office.

(20:45):
And you would go up and interact and there would be a renter's key and a guard key and the dual key system for control.
And you could put things in the house safe.
That's expensive to maintain.
It involves a lot of effort and labor.
There's a process of dealing with staff.
And the hotels all learned that when what are called hospitality safes became cheap enough,

(21:07):
that allows them to transfer liability off themselves.
So you have to have some method of securing valuables in most hotels under the law.
Otherwise, if something is stolen from a room, even they can put up a sign that says,
this is not our property, not our problem.
Technically, the law usually states that they have to provide some measure of security.

(21:27):
That used to be the house safe.
Now, it is typically in the closet of most hotels or in a drawer somewhere, a hotel safe,
a hospitality safe.
These are designed to be as cheap as possible and as low friction as possible.
Security is not the main priority with these.
So, of course, they all have overrides.
Many of them are very dumb.

(21:47):
We've talked about them.
Many of them have mechanical key overrides that, again, my buddy Brian and I, on his
we showed jiggling hotel safes open so if you it's kind of a catch-22 you can put your gun in the
hotel safe in the room and if it gets stolen they'll say well i don't know it's you know you
that's not our problem you had it in the safe i don't know if you actually do you ever really have

(22:09):
a gun or if you don't put you say i don't trust this safe where the damn i'm going to keep it in
my pelican case which i do i just keep things in my pelican case and i lock the pelican case
and they'll say well you weren't using the safe that's not on us personally i trust my pelican
case way more than the safe because someone's they have to have some real brass ones to drag an
entire pelican case down the hall you can't just shove that in a purse or a backpack and sneak your

(22:33):
way out the side door i also run a hidden camera in my hotel rooms when i'm not there see and

Speaker 3 (22:39):
that
brings you know that brings an interesting thing is realize that no where no matter where you are
it's there there's no safe place to store something right i mean even in your house you might have
a safe you know by your bedside to store um we were talking offline i was telling you about
a lost key in my family where i i took a big pen apart in one minute and i had this i had it open

(23:06):
yeah and it's funny because i actually did i think a youtube short on it on my channel a while back
where i showed it's just like it's like a minute you're in and um i mean there was a i think there
was an attack you did with one of these old safes where you figured out you could slide a
piece of either wire or a piece of metal in to hit the reset for the for the keypad and you just

(23:31):
typed in a new code and you owned the safe yeah

Speaker 4 (23:34):
yeah everything's a balancing act so ease of access
security of storage cost you know if if money was no object we would buy a giant vault for
everything we own but then of course how quickly can you get in and out of that vault is it a pain
in the butt to do that every day with your carry i'm not going to put my carry pistol every day i

(23:55):
come home so yeah we have very good safes in our basement for our main collection not all of which
is in this house some of it is at our relatives houses some of my office i'm a safe technician so
i've ordered safes just i'll order another one of those order another i'll just send it to this is
a customer at this address i'm ordering safes at dealer price for myself so our collection is very
spread out. But my daily carry, yeah, Tara and I, we just have a little, like you mentioned,

(24:20):
a little bedside lockbox sort of, is it the best safe? No. Is it quick? Yeah. Do I trust it if we
have a dinner party over and somebody goes upstairs? I'm not worried. If there's kids in the house
because they're visiting with some friends, I'm not worried. If I'm gone for a week at a time,
do I want my most valuable everything? My M1A costs more than my first car.

(24:45):
it's my mass rifle like no i'm not going to keep that in a safe that costs less than the gun in
general the rule the rule is it's called the 10 rule so uh if you have you know let's say
ballpark that's about a almost a ten thousand dollar rifle at this point if you count the glass
on it so yeah you could put that in a thousand dollar safe no one's going to sneeze at you i

(25:08):
might i might bump it a little more than that but again i'm paying dealer price but if you have
But $100,000 worth of firearms, which is not an unreasonable number at all, don't go to Costco and buy the safe that's $600.
That's

Speaker 2 (25:21):
a little

Speaker 4 (25:22):
bit misaligned with the expectation there.
You're looking at a $10,000 safe maybe.

Speaker 3 (25:28):
Yeah, it's funny because I get this a lot where when I was in FFL, where people talk about storing firearms.
And, you know, like I have a realistic conversation with them, depending on whether they really want to hear this or not.
Right.
I mean, doing what I do for a day job, I'm not an expert in physical security, but I'm educated in it.

(25:54):
Right.
And I remember one time ago.
Nothing.
I've got a cable lock and this is the best thing out there.
And I go.
So if I take my bolt cutters and just cut that thing off and there's like, well, okay, well then, you know, yeah, but then I'll know like, okay, cool.
And I pulled one because, you know, we had to keep cable locks around because we had to as dealers to have them available.

(26:19):
And I pulled out my, gosh, I think my $5 lock pick set.
It has, you know, it has like three, three bits and then my torsion.
Right.
And I just went raked it.
It was open.
And they're like, you might want to rethink your, depending on your needs, you might want to rethink the cable lock.

(26:43):
Will this keep the casual person walking by?
Sure.
I mean, let's face it.
Locks are designed to keep the honest people honest.
And that one's not even going to keep the honest person honest.
It's not that hard if you know what you're doing.
And these are all things that, you know, we talk about safety.

(27:06):
We talk about locking up our firearms.
You know, we're being responsible.
But that responsibility also comes with a little bit of more additional education about storing the firearms.
I like what you're saying about, you know, am I going to take, and I do, I have a rifle I built.
And gosh, it's like a, got the glass on, it's like 2,500.

(27:29):
And it's, yeah, I'm not going to put that in, you know, a stack-on, right?
Right.
You know, I mean, I might as well, at that point, I just might as well go out and find an old gym locker.
Yeah.
I mean,

Speaker 4 (27:43):
some solutions these days that are sold as gun safes are really just glorified filing cabinets, practically.

Speaker 3 (27:49):
Yeah.
So, and this is why I wanted to get you on to talk about this.
You know, we have the travel.
People think, okay, I have the safe in my room.
It's like, it's not the greatest thing in the world.
I know what you're talking about, the house safe.
There was a hotel actually in D.C. back when I was doing IT work that we were doing a migration on.

(28:14):
And I was in the house safe.
And probably three quarters of those boxes were no longer valid because they had to be drilled.
And they went over to the in-room safe, the hospitality safes.
And just realize, people, you've got to think about this stuff.

(28:37):
Depending on where you're going, it also depends on whether you make a personal decision to follow the rules or not.
The building that you were at, we had a policy, no firearms in the building.
I, when I worked for that company, I had to make a decision whether or not I was going to follow that or not.

(29:01):
Right.
Whether I was going to leave a firearm in a parking lot unattended.
Now, meanwhile, I can look at my office and go, I could probably count 15 cars I knew that had guns in them.
Mine was not one of them.
It was just, I had to make that decision.
When you have this stuff, you got to make your decision whether or not you're going to follow the rules.

(29:24):
it's a little different like if i was in northern virginia and i was going to go over to the
pentagon yeah now i'm not going to take that firearm in there that's that's a good way of
disappearing for a while um and having and having some really tough questions on future job
applications that i need to talk about but yeah you make make your decisions i love what you're

(29:46):
talking about about the camera you put you know you lock your stuff up in your pelican case then
you just have a little hidden camera and you know you've got the evidence

Speaker 4 (29:56):
and it just it just rolls
foot yeah it's there's loads of these on amazon and stuff there's not secret squirrel things it
looks like a cell phone charger plugged in the wall it works as a cell phone charger but it triggers
on motion so i leave it plugged in when i'm out in the room when i come home i just pull it out of
the wall leave it on the counter and i never really even review the footage if nothing's wrong if i
ever were to open my case or something look disturbed or missing let's pull that sd card

(30:20):
let's get the footage otherwise it's just going to be the occasional made or probably not even that
because i just leave the do not disturb on my door i shouldn't i shouldn't have anyone in there ever

Speaker 3 (30:29):
you know i i'm the same way um i had a i i just generally i tell them i don't want i don't want
them to do you know to

Speaker 2 (30:38):
fix up the work i

Speaker 3 (30:39):
just like i'm good it look if i go two days i'm only here
for three right it's not that big a deal because you're going to make the bed and i'm just going
to tear it up when I go to sleep anyway. So just leave it. And then I'll hang the tag on.
Does that mean no one's going to come into my room? No, but the chances are less.

(31:04):
It's one of those things of I just decide different things. I just think a little different
than the average traveler because I don't want my stuff messed with, even though anything of value
with me still I don't want you you know even if I have my firearm with me if you take my pelican

(31:25):
case I was like okay great I gotta I gotta fly in six hours I don't have a case for my gun
you know um yeah it's just one of those things if you you want to you want to think a little
differently um what is it for for someone who's never traveled with a firearm let's talk a little

(31:47):
bit about locks and we were talking about tsa locks there's there's some locks that are better
than other and talk a little bit about locks and what people should look for

Speaker 4 (31:57):
yeah i would say
there's basically three tiers and you want to be kind of goldilocks in the middle
on the lowest end you have locks that are so small junky and cheap that either they are susceptible
to some well-known quick access bypasses

(32:17):
that you would know and some of your listeners might,
not just even manipulation with picks.
I'm talking about shimming, comb picking
on a little Master 140 series or something.
And some locks are so, little luggage locks,
I mean, you can almost just snap them off
if you twist hard enough.
So complete junker locks, come on,
maybe spend more than $3 at the store.

(32:39):
Then you have a nice category of lock
that I'll talk about in a minute.
At the way top top, if you have a lock, you say, well, this is the DOD armory grade lock, and it's the most bulletproof.
Okay, that's fine.
You're still putting it on a plastic case.
At the end of the day, if you have a lock, you're adding 10 pounds of weight on two, you know, you have five pound locks on each side.

(33:01):
That's more than the airline is going to charge you if you're overweight.
But also, if the lock is so huge, I've seen locks actually bash and rip the hasp off of a case before.
I've seen rampers and throwers just reach and pull and grab, because that looks a big, beefy, I can pull on that, and snap the entire shackle apart.
Snap the shackle right out of the hasp.

(33:23):
So the medium, the nice medium is, for me, a lock that doesn't have ridiculously known bypasses and exploits,
that you're not going to just see anybody who spent three seconds on YouTube, oh, I can pop that lock open.
okay we're gonna above that threshold but not a hundred dollar dod military grade crazy giant

(33:45):
beefy unnecessary thing that's going to call attention to you again that's putting a hundred
dollar lock in a ten dollar door you know if you have a foam core interior residential door
just put my foot

Speaker 2 (33:56):
right through the door

Speaker 4 (33:57):
i beat your lock yeah so in the middle there are a number
of nice locks. You might call them commercial grade locks. In hardware stores, you'll see that.
Even a company that's a real punching bag, Masterlock, people love to bag on them for
being cheap. But I mean, that's because everyone buys the dollar store, the hardware store,
Masterlock. Masterlock makes commercial and pro series. They're fine. Perfectly fine. They're

(34:20):
going to resist some bolt cutters. They'll have some anti-manipulation pins. They probably won't
be comb pickable. My favorite is a brand called Abus. Abus is a German brand, but Abus US
They have plenty of market penetration here.
These are all $25, $30 locks that I'm talking about.
The reason I like the Abus, the 85 series, right?

(34:42):
See, the 85, yeah, I think it's the 85 series.
They're re-keyable.
So basically, I can re-key these to match my, or to work with my house keys.
We have very nice commercial grade deadbolts here in the house.
They're a product called Schlage Primus.
our luggage locks, we put them on our guns, our actual house key will operate those.

(35:05):
But I'm a locksmith. I've rekeyed. I've changed them. So there's a secondary key,
kind of a key that's not very high security that will also operate our luggage locks. It doesn't
operate our front door. I don't mind if I have to, and we'll talk about why, sometimes surrender
that key to TSA if they say, well, we have to open this case, but you can't be the one to do it.

(35:26):
You can stand over there, but I have to do it.
I don't want you to take my house key and walk away from me.
I'll say, here, this is a pretty nice commercial key.
It's not the same key as my house.
My house key would open that lock, but you can have this key and bring it back to me.
What was your name?
Frank?
Okay, Frank.
So, yeah, the Abbas 83.
I'm sorry, 8345 series.
Yeah, like, again, $25, $30.

(35:49):
You can rekey them yourself.
They're very easily serviceable.
You're not going to get a bolt cutter on them

Speaker 2 (35:53):
very easily

Speaker 4 (35:54):
at all, but they're fine.
They're fine.

Speaker 3 (35:58):
It's funny.
You're talking about surrendering your key.
I had so, I mean, you're from Jersey.
I got pulled over going to a competition at Fort Dix.

Speaker 2 (36:08):
I was living

Speaker 3 (36:09):
in Maryland at the time, driving up, got pulled over.
And do you have a firearm in the car?
I do have a firearm that is locked in the trunk.
All right.
let's, you know, let's see it. Right. So I get out and, uh, open up the trunk and there's my case

(36:36):
and there's my locks and they were combination locks. And he goes, so what's your combination?
Go, Nope. Nope. Not, not getting my combination. Yeah. Yeah. And so he's going through this whole
thing. So there was a negotiation at the side of the road of opening this case. And I opened up

(36:59):
the case, popped the lock, stepped back. He opened it up, laughed, closed. And I go, what was the
laugh for? He goes, well, I've never quite seen anybody do this because living in Maryland, I know
what the laws of Maryland are. I kind of have an idea, growing up just outside of Philly, kind of
an idea of what jersey is uh i had my glock in there i had the glock taken apart and had zip ties

(37:22):
through like everything so you were you're just not going to accept assemble this firearm right
at least you know anytime fast you had to clip all these zip ties uh made he was very comfortable
when he saw that i'm just locked it up and we had a little discussion about transporting firearms i
go just for curiosity why did you pull me over he goes a glock sticker in the back of your car

(37:47):
Unbelievable.
Unbelievable.
And I was going to a GSSF shoot.
So you knew the shoot was around.
So he was just out just being a dick, pulling people over just because he could.
But that's the one thing about understanding, you know, you don't give away your master

(38:08):
key, right?
I mean, there are some things you need to think about.
I know with opening computers, they can use your fingerprint, but they can't force you to give them their password.
I'm not sure, but I think locks are the same way.

Speaker 4 (38:27):
That is my understanding as well, yes.
They cannot force you to disclose something that is knowledge in your head.
They can't compel speech.
But yes, if there's a physical token.
Now, again, a Fourth Amendment lawyer can tell you, oh, they're not permitted without probable cause or reasonable suspicion to actually take your keys from you.
But, yes, I do know several people that talk about the difference between, you know, let's say on a phone, having a pin code versus a thumbprint, et cetera.

Speaker 3 (38:55):
Yeah.
So you're, I love what you're talking about.
You have a key to, you know, your house key could open it, but also have the giveaway key.
That way you don't compromise your residence.

Speaker 2 (39:11):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (39:12):
And that is actually, you know, I did not know that the obvious you could do that with.
That's a pretty powerful feature.

Speaker 4 (39:22):
Yeah.
Yep.
It's just the way I have it pinned up.
If someone was a very competent locksmith and they had time and they took the entire lock apart,
They could, in theory, compare my giveaway key to the pins and the mastering pins and
eventually reverse out with some math what my house key might be, even though there's

(39:43):
one extra chamber, so that it would raise the bar.
And that's all we can ever do.
It's with enough time, effort, and resource, an attacker can usually get to their desired
target or asset.
And it's not our job to make something unachievable under any and all circumstances.
It's our job to say, what is the most likely risk that I face?
What is my threat condition?

(40:04):
And what steps are reasonable to take to make that attack infeasible?
Yeah.
So finding that happy medium.
Otherwise, you're throwing good money after bad, and you're worrying about threats that don't really apply to you.

Speaker 3 (40:18):
Yeah.
And the average TSA person is, number one, not going to have the time or

Speaker 2 (40:22):
the

Speaker 3 (40:22):
knowledge to reverse engineer that lock.
Right.
It generally is not going to happen.
And so, you know, you've complied, right?
They've got their stuff and then you can just keep on moving at that

Speaker 1 (40:36):
point.

Speaker 3 (40:38):
So now we've talked about the lock.
Let's talk a little bit about cases.
I'm a very big fan of Pelican cases.
They just work, right?
Yeah.
So talk a little bit about that.
We talked a little bit before, you know, you don't have your soft-sided case.
your regular rolling bag to put your firearms.

(41:02):
They got to be somewhat rigid.
It's where the Pelican cases come in.
For me, we were talking about ammo.
Usually what I do is I go out and buy,
I'm sorry, I'm looking at them right down here.
I usually run Hydroshocks for my

Speaker 2 (41:19):
defensive ammo.

Speaker 3 (41:21):
And it's a brick of 50, and I just keep that box.
And I just put my bullets back into it.
I put electrical tape around it and put that into my kit, you know, depending on what's going on at the time.
Usually that goes into my check bag, not my firearm.
But that's usually if you are in the factory ammunition case, you're fine.

(41:46):
Sometimes it gets a little wonky where you're doing like, you know, like these MTM cases.
like sometimes sometimes you get away with it sometimes they don't like it

Speaker 4 (41:59):
yeah the some airlines this is where i mentioned airlines can be very different
some airlines have a lot of text surrounding ammo much more than their policy on guns
and some will specifically say must be packed in wood fiber or plastic cases sometimes they'll just
say must be in the original man i very rarely do see original manufacturer's box

Speaker 2 (42:22):
although as

Speaker 4 (42:22):
you
point out that's that's perfectly normal people do that all the time the one caveat there is some
airlines like to see what they call separation of rounds and the box of the hydroshocks that you held
up like that's of course that's fine if you buy a bunch of 22 sometimes they're just all kind of
thrown in there or i get you know you get a box of lake city surplus 556

Speaker 2 (42:44):
it might just be

Speaker 4 (42:45):
packed in
kind of all just like sardined in like a pack of cigarettes or something and not separated.
In those cases, I use the Plano or the MTM, you know, kind of plastic cases.
There are some places that want to make sure the rounds cannot be, quote, crushed.
You know, and I've had somebody say, well, this, I don't know, this plastic box here would be better.

(43:06):
This paper box that this came in, that could be, I'm like, come on, man.
So, honestly, the FAA doesn't care.
about separation as long as the rounds are covered. So I've used magazines. The

Speaker 2 (43:22):
FAA will

Speaker 4 (43:23):
even say
magazines, whether loaded or unloaded, must not be in the gun, implying that magazines can be loaded.
So yeah, I mean, I've had loads of like P-mags, because P-mags, you can put a dust cover on the
top of it. And those are just loaded up mags, but the rounds are covered. They are free from,
they're not going to be crushed. They're not rolling loose. I had one airline worker give me

(43:45):
a little raised eyebrow once.
I've had mags, just like pistol mags,
in a pistol magazine holster.
I don't carry a mag holster,
but I found some cheap one at a table at a gun show
and little Velcro flaps.
I said, I'll put three mags in here,
I'll flap it over,
and those rounds are covered.
I've done that before.

(44:05):
But yes, having either the original manufacturer's box,
if it's pretty rigid and has a little foam
or plastic insert is the best,
Or I do like those sort of case guard, MTM, or Plano plastic cases.
I do use those somewhat regularly as well.

Speaker 3 (44:22):
Yeah, I use these because usually I'm traveling with my pistol, so I just do that.
But yeah, occasionally a rifle, and that's why I held up this.
I mean, gosh, this is so old that this is from my childhood, this particular box.
30-30s too.
Nice.
Yeah, growing up in Pennsylvania deer hunting, it was Winchester 3030.

(44:51):
So I'm trying to think.
We've kind of did the case.
We've done the locks.
We've done the ammo.
What have we

Speaker 4 (44:59):
missed?
Upon arrival at your destination, we've hinted at this in a couple of ways,
talking about where the case will show up or how it will show up.
You mentioned the zip tie situation is always fun for anyone who didn't catch that.
There is one carrier.
It's Delta.
I was Delta Diamond for 10 years.
Like I was I was there when Delta switched their policies a few times.

(45:22):
They did this after this was in Fort Lauderdale, Florida, that had a shooting right in the airport.

Speaker 3 (45:27):
Yeah, it was right.
It was right after that is

Speaker 4 (45:30):
when they

Speaker 2 (45:30):
did

Speaker 4 (45:30):
the big zip ties.
So they wanted to be seen as doing something.
And they said, well, before we surrender your gun back to you, we have to lock it.
And I say, but it is locked.
It has to be locked.
And they say, well, we want it locked our way.
So that's when, yeah, these giant zip ties get strapped around the whole thing, which I don't like because it looks dumb.
It obviously makes it very clear that, hey, this is a gun.

(45:52):
This person is wheeling through the airport.
So the first thing I always do is immediately cut them off, sometimes right in front of the person.
And some people get freaky about it.
And I say, then call somebody.
Call what you want to do when I throw the zip tie out.
I'm usually using – so I have medical shears.
Medical shears are permissible in carry-on.
So my backpack has a little aid kit on the side of it for ouches and boo-boos, and I have a little trauma pack in there. Med shears work just fine. The FAA's actual rule for passenger screening at the TSA, any blade on scissors is fine if they are blunt tip, which medical shears are, and from the fulcrum to the tip of the blade can be no more than four inches, which most medical shears are under that size.

(46:37):
I've used those. I've used toenail clippers before just to kind of nip, nip, nip a couple times to get the damn things off.
But yes, the zip ties of freedom might surprise people.
The main thing that surprises people, though, is where's my gun coming out?
And it's annoying if you have multiple checked bags, one of which maybe is a firearm, others might not be.

(46:58):
So you're standing at the carousel expecting your regular bag to show up there.
but is your gun going to show up?
Was it going to show up there?
Is it going to show up over here?
Maybe on the oversized belt,
or maybe as you point out,
sometimes the rampers will take it to the baggage office behind the counter
and you have to go talk to somebody.
It's not a,
I don't consider that a huge indignity.

(47:18):
Uh,
we need to see your ID.
I'm fine.
Whatever.
Yeah.
I'd rather you fine.
You know,
it's me.
Yeah.
But it's just the idea of how I'm going to stand here for 20 minutes.
Wait till the last bag.
No,
I guess it's not going to be here.
I guess I'll go somewhere else.
I wish airlines were consistent across their whole network and always do the same thing in every airport that they serve.

(47:39):
That's not been my experience, though.
Sometimes it's just going to show up where you don't expect it to be.

Speaker 3 (47:45):
Well, it's funny because I've seen it on both sides.
I've seen it on the check-in side and I've seen it on the receiving side.
Same airline, different procedures, depending

Speaker 2 (47:56):
on what

Speaker 3 (47:57):
the airport is.
And it's just like, guys, this would be a lot easier on everybody.
I would know what to do for this airport if you guys would just follow the

Speaker 4 (48:08):
same rules everywhere.
Right?
Yeah.
And often you'll speak to someone who's very insistent that I've been with this airline for 11 years and we always do this.
We always do it here.
And they'll swear up and down.
We've had national training.
I'm sure you have.
it's not considered you do it this way here and your colleagues at this airport over there do it

(48:29):
differently.

Speaker 3 (48:31):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (48:32):
And what's so funny is they

Speaker 3 (48:34):
can't fathom that, um,

Speaker 2 (48:35):
at

Speaker 3 (48:36):
all. And it makes you
wonder if they can't deal with either check-in or picking up of, of, uh, firearms, what else,
what else are they doing differently? Right. Um, but no, it's, um, yeah, I've seen that a lot of
different in different airports of different procedures. I know it's not that I'm stressed

(48:57):
out about it, but it's always, especially in an airport that I haven't been before or haven't been
in for a while. It's

Speaker 2 (49:04):
like,

Speaker 3 (49:05):
huh? Um, what am I going to run into this time? Yeah. And it's just,
you get that lit. It's not, you know, it's not like a panic attack, but you know, your heart
beats a couple of beats faster, just trying to catch up with the situation that you're in.
And then you're like, okay, now I see how this is going.
Let's play the game and get on with my travels.

Speaker 4 (49:28):
That brings up a very good point as you're talking about your departure experience,
checking in and submitting your luggage for stowage.
That luggage does have to be screened.
And the screening process, even with a firearm, can vary.
And there's pretty much three ways that airports do that.
the absolute best and when i was also a montanan for for years i was living out there

(49:52):
uh little you know tiny airport so you're you're in hell and i was in missoula so best case scenario
was what i always experienced there which is the screening table is right there in the check-in hall
sometimes mere yards away from where you'd interacted with an airline agent they say okay
speak to the tsa he's right there and you just and you're standing there and you're you're smoking
and joking with the guy and they're either swabbing it or running it through an inline scanner or

(50:15):
or opening it, whatever they're doing, you're standing right there.

Speaker 2 (50:18):
You can

Speaker 4 (50:18):
see it. You can,
here's my key if you need it. That's the best scenario. The second type of scenario, which is
not awful, is sometimes when the luggage is being screened a little bit out of your control,
but there's an interaction, a live human interaction that you're having. Sometimes they
put the bag on what they call a straight belt, where they slide it just on, you know, a six foot

(50:41):
belt because the other side of a wall and there's like a rubber curtain and they say, hey,
there's a firearm coming through, Charlie.
And then, okay, is the customer there?
And the guy knows you're there.
Or they take it around behind a little wall
and you're looking through a window.
But again, the TSO knows you're there.
And you can kind of be like, all right,
I see what you're doing.
If you need my key and I have a key.

(51:02):
The crappiest scenarios, which lots of airports do,
is where they say, okay, this is your gun.
Send it down the main belt.
And they just send it down with all the other luggage.
And then you play the, what the hell do we do now game?
Typically, airlines in that instance will say something like, well, wait 15 minutes, and if we need you, we'll page you.

(51:22):
After 15 minutes, you're good.
I'm not a fan of that.
I always prefer to get some sort of confirmation.
And I'll wait 15 minutes, I'll come back up, and I'll say, hey, Susan, you were helping me earlier with the firearm.
Oh, yeah.
How long has it, Mr. Smith?
It's been, oh, yeah, you should be good.
And I'll say, nope, I understand.

(51:42):
It hasn't been a call.
My department policy is I'm not released until I have positive confirmation.
Can you please call the bag room?
And I didn't say I was a cop.
I said my department.
You know, I know you don't claim to be law enforcement, but a lot of people assume I'm somebody very official from the government.
Oh, there's a policy.
And they have to fumble around and mess with papers.

(52:02):
Do we have a sheet?
I can eventually figure out how to call somebody.
Hey, you had a back?
Oh, yeah.
The Black Pelican case.
Oh, it's clear.
Okay.
Yeah.
He says you're good.
Okay.
Thank you.
Good.
Because what I don't want is to get to my destination and the gun had a problem.
They couldn't screen it.
Nobody called me.
My number's right on the thing.
I don't know why.

(52:23):
But I've had hassles like that.
Or you've been at your gate.
You're ready to board.
And they say, you know, paging, Mr. Firearm.

Speaker 2 (52:29):
Oh,

Speaker 4 (52:30):
crap.
They need to run back downstairs.
So I always try to push and ask, hey, can you get somebody on the phone?
I do that a little less now because of those luggage trackers.
If I'm looking, it's, oh, look, there's my case.
It's going over.
Oh, it's all the way way out at the pier.
It's at D7 where my departure is.
I guess it's screened.
It's fine.
They released it from TSA.

Speaker 3 (52:53):
Yeah, it's funny because I've seen, I've never had it where I've been told to wait.
But it has been interesting of, and that's why I love flying in and out of Montana.
It's like, I'm checking it in.
There's TSA.

(53:14):
Usually it's, they'll either go over or they'll call.
Somebody from TSA will come over, will go screen it.
Done.
I know like years ago out of Allentown, I was visiting my mom.
It would actually happen to be the same time that it had all the carbon on it from the fireplace.

(53:40):
it was I had to check in and all the screening stuff was behind me and it's like then they have
to like take the luggage all the way over there and screen it and then I like and they're like
come on I'm like cool I get to kit I get to I get to go with my gun and then I've had it where it's

(54:03):
going down the belt and it's, um, all of a sudden somebody from TSA pops their head out
and they're like, like, Oh, okay.
Like pop this open.
Um, and that was, that was a very small airport where let's just say, I'm not sure they were

(54:25):
up with the times even back then when it was not a lot of requirements.
I'm pretty sure that they're probably their x-ray machine was not working.

Speaker 4 (54:34):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I've, I've, it's really, I've been invited sometimes down into the bowels of the airport
before by TSA.
And other times they brought the case.
One time they brought the case up to the gate and they said, we couldn't get your key to
work.
I said, I don't know how you couldn't figure out how to get the key to work.
And I unlocked it right there and they just pawed through it.
And I said, this is fucking wild.
Are you kidding?

(54:55):
I'm standing there.
I'm just looking at my firearm and the

Speaker 3 (54:58):
freaking, okay.
yeah it's um i always like to tell people you're traveling with firearms just make sure you're
padding your time on the front end um make sure you're there ahead of time uh make sure you got
your stuff straightened out before you get there and um use use your word or choose your words

(55:18):
wisely of what you say

Speaker 2 (55:20):
you know like

Speaker 3 (55:21):
we talked about before i do i'd never say gun it's always
either firearm if my pistol it's my sidearm something other than gun just do not say gun
because people get jumpy especially in airports when you hear the word gun yeah um so we've been
rolling almost an hour here wow so easy

Speaker 2 (55:42):
to talk about

Speaker 3 (55:43):
this topic i i know it's well it's kind of
an odd subject that people just don't talk about i mean um it's kind of fun though i mean both of
us have had experiences and different experiences going through the airline system it's it's kind of
cool to just talk about that stuff for people to uh to do this so yes people it is normal to travel

(56:03):
with a firearm make it even more normaler uh to go uh let's loosen up a little bit we'll start
rolling with a speed round all right i'm gonna ask you four this or that questions and then one
thinking question so for your first question let's uh let's go 38 or 357

Speaker 4 (56:29):
38 or 357 oh i would say
i'd purchase something in 357 because i can always chamber it in 38 if i want to to save money or to
teach a new shooter but i'd like it to be able to eat both uh both meals so get an on people

Speaker 3 (56:45):
no i'm the same way uh if you're gonna do if you're gonna do it do it 357 you can choose
either way you want to go uh let's see here for hearing protection earplugs or ear

Speaker 4 (56:56):
muffs
i have become an earplug person now maybe i'm for all the listeners i'm the wrong guy to ask because
i have permanent uh tinnitus due to muzzle reports over the years you can watch it happen i was i was
testing different brands of ear pro and there was a crappy safari land i think brand and i tried it
with my sbr at an indoor range like a dummy and you can watch i really rung my bells and i've ever

(57:21):
ever since that's it's been worse ever since then but the little phone even the little foamy's if
you just want to have the very hardcore hearing protection and they don't interfere if i'm
shouldering different type of you know i yeah i've seen people double up you can put cans over top
little foamies if you're shooting a 50 bmg or something without a brake on it but yeah i usually

(57:44):
use earplugs for comfort and honestly they're you know what i even have them here because i'm going
to be donating these to one of my friends gun matches a little bluetooth one so i can these
are noise canceling bluetooth headphones when i'm traveling they're also they pair with my phone to
listen and watch the things uh but you can do they're almost i used to have a pair of walkers

(58:04):
game ears where they would be noise canceling, but they would enhance.
You could hear

Speaker 2 (58:09):
your environment,

Speaker 4 (58:11):
but it would cut loud sounds electronically.
These work like that.
So there's a number of brands.
This one's by Axel.
But yeah, there's a number of brands playing in that space.
And I like them very much.

Speaker 3 (58:22):
It's funny because I'm looking at all my bench over there.
I have probably two pairs of Caldwells, one pair of Caldwells on the chain, kind of like
the Axel.
I have a pair of axles.
I've got a lot of ear pro.
So like me, being the latchkey generation or the Walkman generation,

(58:45):
I mean, it was nothing for me to go down into a concert,
because it was easy to do.
And as a kid, yeah, my hearing, I just started wearing hearing aids,
like, what, two or three years ago.
So yeah, definitely take your ear pro seriously.
I love the electronic, especially when you're with new shooters.

(59:08):
So

Speaker 2 (59:08):
you can hear,

Speaker 3 (59:11):
you have a conversation, you can talk.
And they do really good at suppressing that audio, that harmful audio.
But yeah, I'm the same way.
Occasionally I'll do over the ears.
But the problem I have is with glasses.
I have a hard time with sealing.

(59:31):
And sometimes they just pinch right here and it gets uncomfortable after an hour or so.

Speaker 4 (59:39):
Yeah.
So I would say the best answer, you really, you're nailing it.
It's a cool either or question, but listeners, please don't, hearing loss is cumulative and
permanent.
Start young, stick with it consistently, use something, whatever you're using and stick
with it.

Speaker 3 (59:55):
Yeah.
So let's see here.
We did, that was question two.
rifle or shotgun?

Speaker 4 (01:00:04):
Oh, that's going to be context dependent, obviously.

Speaker 3 (01:00:08):
I'll give you a context.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:00:12):
You happen

Speaker 3 (01:00:13):
to come over to my house and sitting on my bench is a rifle and a shotgun.
Which one do you reach for first?

Speaker 4 (01:00:21):
I'm going to reach for the right.
Well, I'm going to ask you permission first because it's not mine.
But with your permission, I would reach for the rifle first because the rifle is probably
going to have something more interesting about it uh if you've seen one shotgun you've probably
seen unless you've got some multi-hundred dollar race shotgun for three gun crazy and then i'm not
going to be i'm just that's just a reloading competition at that point so most shotguns

(01:00:42):
don't tell a story the way a rifle will

Speaker 2 (01:00:44):
um for

Speaker 4 (01:00:45):
an absolute doomsday scenario
shotgun might be the most versatile if you could only own one absolute thing you can hunt with a
shotgun you can do a shotgun is devastating with with proper buckshot at close range

Speaker 2 (01:01:03):
you can even with slugs push

Speaker 4 (01:01:06):
out

Speaker 3 (01:01:11):
then you have like me that have one

Speaker 4 (01:01:13):
ounce slugs yeah and do you do you have any optics on any
shotguns of any kind red dots or anything uh my benelli m2 currently has a red dot that

Speaker 3 (01:01:24):
i'm
testing yeah

Speaker 4 (01:01:25):
you can put a slug on a on a human-sized target out easily to 100 yards with
a with a nice little sighting system on a shotgun and is it as good as it is it an ar or something
for a defensive scenario probably not but if you could only have one thing ammunition's plentiful
the variety of ammunition you can use everything from signal

Speaker 2 (01:01:45):
flares to

Speaker 4 (01:01:46):
salute birdshot loads buck
shot load. Yeah. Shotguns are, they still have their place. They're not obsolescent by any means,
but a rifle is going to be more interesting.

Speaker 3 (01:01:56):
Yeah. I agree with you on that. I was, um,
you know, I've got a bunch of rifles hanging up over there, but, um, I w I think I would grab
the rifle first just because, uh, you know, I mean, I grew up with shotguns, uh, shooting trap
when I was 10 and just, I don't know. I just, I would, I would grab a rifle every time just to,

(01:02:17):
just for the ooh and ah aspect of it so all right so that was three let me see number four
lever action or pump action lever

Speaker 4 (01:02:30):
lever action that's an easy fast answer uh it's just too much
fun right as far as mechanical repeating mechanically repeating not self-loading firearms
Um, lever guns are just fun.
They're fun to run.
They're fun to shoot.
I like them a lot.

Speaker 3 (01:02:49):
Yeah.
My, so, you know, for me, my first, my first gun was a Remington 870 Wingmaster.
Still have that shotgun.
Uh, my second gun was a 30, 30 Winchester, uh, Winchester Model 94.
I still have that gun too.
Um, but yeah, there was just something about that lever action.
It's just, I mean, it's classic, right?

(01:03:13):
Mm-hmm.
I mean, really, it's really what the, I guess,
letter of action would be the first repeating rifle action.

Speaker 4 (01:03:21):
My friend Carl has this sort of,
it's almost a cocktail party way of proposing this thought,
but he described them in many cases as the assault rifles of their day.
They weren't select fire, obviously,

Speaker 2 (01:03:34):
but they were

Speaker 4 (01:03:35):
oftentimes an intermediate cartridge,
not a full power cartridge.
with rapid reload possible with very rapid follow-up shots possible and if used in a defensive
capacity there was nothing quite like them if you're facing off against somebody with a single
shot i mean it yeah the repeating arm like that in an intermediate caliber especially

(01:03:57):
there's a reason that they were still carried still to this day all of my lever actions i enjoy
that they're all you know what they're in they're in 357 because they could eat 38 if i want to or
I can take down some...
I could hunt. I mean, I wouldn't...
I'd be ethically a little questioning
if I would drop a deer with a.357 if I didn't
have to, right? But you could.
You could harvest a deer

(01:04:19):
or plenty of other mid-sized game
if you had to with a.357.

Speaker 3 (01:04:23):
Yep. Yeah.
No, I get it.
So that leads us to our thinking question.
So I'm going to take
you to the world's largest
armory.

Speaker 2 (01:04:34):
And in

Speaker 3 (01:04:35):
this armory is one of anything that has ever thrown a projectile.
It could be anything from Dennis the Menace's Slingshot all the way up to the deck guns off.
Well, since you're from New Jersey, instead of the Missouri, we're going to use the Jersey.
So it has been cleared by every possible agency in the world that you can take a home one of anything in this armory.

(01:05:01):
Yeah.
What are you taking home?

Speaker 4 (01:05:04):
So I like your stipulation that it is sort of this magical blessing that you will get to own this.
The law is not a concern, et cetera.
As tempting as it is to say something like, I don't know, a Mark 19 or something that's just going to, you know, repeating fire with lobbing M40 grenades, right?

(01:05:29):
40 millimeter grenades.
M40 is different, Sean.
Instead of something like a Mark 19, which, again, each round is a destructive device.
So that's how they get you.
They say, you can have the Mark 19, but now we're not going to give you any tax stamps for the HE rounds.
So instead of something like that, there's a strong possibility that, like a Browning M2?

(01:05:54):
Like just to get it, you get a nice Ma-Deuce.
There's something about it.
And they were on, so I'm a big follower of Ryan Szymanski, Battleship New Jersey.
I watched the New Jersey channel on YouTube.
They had a few of those.
They had a few pigs, honestly.
Take a nice M60 just because it is so onerous to try to acquire one under the current provisions of the NFA.

(01:06:18):
There's only so many transferable ones out there.
And if we could magic our way past that, it would be – this is assuming that it would magically become transferable.
And I could use it, own it, enjoy it.
And then either my daughter would inherit it or we'd sell it.
It would just put it into

Speaker 3 (01:06:36):
a trust.

Speaker 4 (01:06:38):
Yeah.
But it's also a good financial investment.
You could sell.
What's a good price on gun broker for an M60 E4 these days?
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:06:45):
I don't know.
It's been

Speaker 4 (01:06:46):
a while since I looked at an M60.
Yeah.
But that would be nice in terms of you'd have fun using it and then potentially sell it one day.
because you're going to recoup some of that money a lot of a lot of full autos nowadays are they're
good for turning money into noise and money into smiles

Speaker 3 (01:07:03):
yeah if

Speaker 4 (01:07:04):
it was something that's just
unobtainium in terms of wow there's the utter wow factor either something like a well rod or
the h and k what was it was it their g11 was that weird electrically fired caseless
Because that's just a real unicorn of a gun.
Like, you know, I don't think even,

(01:07:25):
I don't think Ian's even done a video on those
or something like that, my friend.
I don't think he has.
Yeah, so again, there's just complete unobtainium.
That would be neat.
But then like, what do you do with it?
I mean, are we never going to get any ammo for it ever again?
There was a pistol that shot little,
there were like little rocket fire,
rocket ball ammunition.
They had striking.
They actually had little rockets that would,

(01:07:47):
you know, again, it was like a space gun looking thing.
Neat

Speaker 2 (01:07:50):
idea.
We just gave

Speaker 3 (01:07:52):
away one of those on the podcast recently, by the way.
Really?
Yeah, someone actually chose that.
That's so cool.
So again,

Speaker 4 (01:08:00):
a neat idea.
In the end, yeah, I would go with something that I could enjoy for a while
and then transfer to someone else, either in a trust, in a way that's still practical.
I'm not a guy who needs the one that's just going to hang on the wall or be a safe queen
because it's the only one in existence.

(01:08:21):
Oh my God, I magically have it
and there's no ammo for it.
What am I going to do?
I can wave it around and feel special.
I'd rather guns should be shot.
Guns should be used.
And I would want something
that I would be happy to use regularly.

Speaker 3 (01:08:33):
So while you were talking there,
I was looking on Gun Broker.
M60 E6 Black New Upgrade Kit.
Kit.
16,500.
Wow.
And is that transferable?
or is that with the receiver?
Is that the receiver center?
No, it's going to be a kit.
It's not going to be the receiver.

(01:08:54):
I don't

Speaker 2 (01:08:54):
think it's going to be.
The receiver is not part of that deal.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:08:56):
Yeah, I'm looking at it.
It does not look like it has the receiver.
Yeah.
Yeah, resin.

Speaker 4 (01:09:04):
I'm

Speaker 3 (01:09:04):
trying to look.
Oh, wait, here we go.
Sarco Marmont M60 E6 belt-fed machine gun,
Danish E6 U.S. Ordnance Form 3.
So it's transferable.
$15,999.99.

Speaker 4 (01:09:22):
Sounds about right.
Yeah, that sounds about right.

Speaker 3 (01:09:25):
116 grand right there.
Yeah.
That'd be a good investment,
especially since you got it for free.
Exactly.

Speaker 4 (01:09:34):
If we're magic wanding it,
you would have one hell of a
area denial property defense gun
for most of your life if you needed it.
And then if I move overseas
or decide I don't want it,
if the ship writes itself
and we manage to figure out freedom
future and you sell it to some somebody with a healthy collection and too much money plus look
at it this way i mean you're we're about the same age

Speaker 3 (01:09:55):
you can you can be rambo
i used to joke around as a kid and say you know because it's a belt fed weapon
rambo didn't feed it he picked up slack every time he shot yeah absolutely

Speaker 4 (01:10:11):
and you had to do that
they would the way they would hang down i remember my dad would show me photos of old
see rat cans just kind of jammed onto the side of those on deck guns and things

Speaker 3 (01:10:23):
so well how can people find you i mean where can they learn more about you and

Speaker 2 (01:10:28):
and all that

Speaker 3 (01:10:29):
stuff
and realize everybody's either listening or watching we'll have some links down in the show notes
so yes i'm deviant olaf on the

Speaker 4 (01:10:37):
internet spelled not at all like it sounds so good luck with that
but i tend to be on all the major places on mastodon and blue sky and instagram and if you
You can point your internet tube at deviating.net,
which has been my old website since the

Speaker 2 (01:10:52):
beginning of time.
And that has linked to

Speaker 4 (01:10:53):
all my other stuff on there.
But yep, I'm some silly guy on YouTube.
If you punch in Deviant and anything relating to locks
or physical security or something like that on the internet,
you might find me on YouTube or elsewhere.

Speaker 3 (01:11:06):
Awesome.

Speaker 4 (01:11:07):
Well, thank you so much for taking time out of your day.
It's a really pleasure to have you on.
Thank you for having me.
This was great, man.
Good to see you again.
You're welcome to come on anytime.
Awesome.

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