Isaac Etherington: Tales of an EMS Pilot

Isaac Etherington takes us through his journey to becoming an EMS, or what is now called Helicopter Air Ambulance (HAA),  pilot.  He has flown HAA from the badlands of the Dakotas, to the mountains of Yellowstone, to the beautiful state of Oregon. His unique range of experience makes for an exciting episode where we dive into the life of a medical pilot. In this episode we cover juicy subjects such as Crew Resource Management (CRM), external and internal pressures a medical pilot might face,  the importance of good crew cohesion and the formula for a solid crew brief, and an emergency situation we will just nickname- DUCK TALES! Whether you are interested in flying medical services or not, this episode offers some great information and fun content. Enjoy, and thank you for listening!

Episode Transcript

Unknown (00:02):
You're listening to the forever on the fly podcast what
up baby nerd bases Welcome tothe forever on the fly podcast,
your bi weekly dose of aviationinspiration, education and
entertainment. My name is Diane.
And guess who's back?
Back? Back Oh my god. Oh my god.
Thank you folks. Thank you. Ohsenorita thank you for that

(00:31):
wonderful introduction. Oh,you're You're welcome. Our
studio audience is here andthey're all giving you a nice
warm lady. Some chick just threwa bra you crazy and said in the
memory we missed you last week.
I missed you as well. But heheld down the floor I

(00:52):
tried you know,I heard the interview and it was
effin fantastic.
Oh, Grace, Grace. Yes. You know,Tom made it pretty easy for me I
gotta gotta admit but yeah,super interesting. I'm glad that
you actually listened to it. Youknow with your work you're busy
busy scheduleA man is what happens when you
flapper El Chapo err. Yeah,right. Making that sad. Oh,
nice. Nice hustle there. Well,anyways, Jose is back and he is

(01:17):
here to help me get you guyshooked on aviation. All right.
Well, this week if you guys haveever been interested in flying
EMS, or aka emergency medicalservices, okay, helicopter,
mula. And this week's episode isfor you. We're going

(01:41):
to learn about what's life islike as a as a pilot, from an
experienced individual who hasflown medical service from the
geezers of Yellowstone to theBadlands of the Dakotas to the
beautiful state have already gotI don't know which now we'll

(02:02):
keep that in there. We're gonnawe're gonna get into some juicy
subjects this week as well guys,crew resource management,
otherwise known as CRM. And asalways, we're going to get into
some good old fashionedaeronautical decision making
sterile cockpit vers silentcockpit the importance of good
crew cohesion and how toaccomplish a solid crew brief

(02:23):
and an emergency situation.
We're just gonna call Doctor Oh,man, it's a crazy story, guys,
so we're gonna get right toit. Let's do it. Isaac
Etheringtonscene called Grizzly bear attack

(02:45):
snowmobile accident huntingaccidents. This is Isaac
Etherington. And I am forever onthe fly. Good to see you guys.
What an honor. Very excited tobe here.
You too, brother. Thanks forcoming on, man.

(03:07):
My great happy pleasure, guys.
Great, happy pleasure.
God, I can't even write. Yeah, Iguess I mean, the last time I
saw it was that pappy on it? Andit's like freaking years ago,
man.
Yeah, so yeah, I left in 2016.
But I did a longer than normalstint there. I did a year at
South Rim and then like, yearand a half, two years older. And
when did you come on Jose?

(03:30):
I came on 2000, January 2017.
And then was there for about ayear so yeah,
cool. Cool Spot to, to have someadventures. Right.
Yeah, I missed like thecamaraderie, I guess you know,
of all the homies all there.
Agree. Now I tell people all thetime, I'm sure you guys

(03:51):
experienced this. I don't knowif there's another operation in
the helicopter business whereyou can be in contact with like
30 to 60 Different rotor pilotsin a day. You know what I mean?
I think we had a boulder. Youknow, I think we do. I had 25 to
30 in the morning shift. Andthen 2025 In the evening shift.
It's just crazy. Everyday yougot all those people you're

(04:12):
crossing paths with? And I mean,the networking that happens
there is amazing. I'm stillrunning into people, you know,
that, that have worked there,gone through there, and I'm
constantly looking my phonelike, I have that name. I know
that person. Oh, yeah. You know,and it's, the degrees of
separation are crazy. And thenin the real world, they say

(04:33):
there's seven degrees ofseparation between every person
you know, in a country and inthis I think in the helicopter
pilot world, I think it's one ifyou don't know that person,
someone you know and work withknows that person. You know what
I mean? Really small industry.
Say the first piece of advicethat my flight instructor gave
me was, you know, throughoutschool, every day is a job

(04:54):
interview. You know, show welldressed well professionally says
that see that that tool overthere that's, you know, five
months behind you and actinglike a total doofus that can be
the guy in two years that'sinterviewing you for a job. And
I've seen exactly that happen.
It's crazy. And he looked overat the guy with the Dr. Dre

(05:16):
chronic shirt on, you know. Dothat in flight school, because
that's going to someone is goingto remember that, you know, when
you're going in for your job. Soit's, it's funny, and it's
legit. It's true. It's true.
I've seen that I've seen guyswho were a couple years behind
me in the in the career path,interview me for a job when you

(05:36):
know, and I've had a good buddywho is one of my best friends in
the business. We kind ofparallel each other through the
whole the whole industry so fardoing the same jobs, same flight
schools, all that kind of stuff.
And he was just a little bitcrass good guy, but rubs a lot
of people the wrong way, man andI there was in two different

(05:58):
occasions, I've had people comeup to me and say, hey, you know,
we're not going to hire thisguy, because he was just, he
just rubbed me so wrong back inflight school was like, you
know, five, six years ago, youknow, and he's still just your
behavior follows you aroundfirst impressions,

(06:22):
everything, everything fan, whathave you been up to? Since I've
seen you since 2016? It's beenYeah, five years.
Yeah. So yeah, 2016 I leftPantheon for air medical. And
I've been doing that ever since.
And I've kind of been boy, kindof been hopping around
companies. Hopefully. I'verecently been with this company.

(06:44):
I'm with now for a year and I'mhoping to stay here for a long
time because it's an awesomeplace. But I went to a little
operation called am RG ormedical resource group and they
were bad. They're not there.
They've changed a bit but theywere kind of a an Umbrella
Corporation had a bunch ofcompanies and and I went to fly
for one of their companies inNorth Dakota. And it was a

(07:06):
really great place to to learnEMS. Luckily, I was jumping into
a B three he knew a star so Ihad a lot of experience in model
so all I really had to learn wasthe business itself and not the
style of flying and not the newaircraft. So that was pretty
cool. I spent a year in NorthDakota a little over a year and
we were supporting the oilfields out there. This we were

(07:28):
in a really kind of aninteresting little town. I don't
know if you've ever been inNorth Dakota, but there's this
little little paradise on Earthcalled Williston, North Dakota.
I've been there.
Yeah, you know, and again,anyone listening get to
Williston?
Sounds cool there. Walmart's offthe chain. That you
know what people ask me whatthey were asking me what's in

(07:49):
Williston and I'd be like, wegot a really good Walmart here
if that's on your tours list, gocheck it out. But they are they
are fascinating. A little sidenote just fascinating place. Not
the prettiest place but greatpeople. They they experienced
this crazy boom when thefracking happened and this

(08:11):
little town for several yearsbetween like 2000 I think 2012
and 2014 was just it was moreexpensive to get apartment there
than it was waterfront SanFrancisco. And you had just
people making six figures withno background checks and just
this huge boom and with all thatinflux of money came crime,

(08:37):
organized crime. We had bikergangs we had crazy drug
production prostitution, all theFBI set blofield off office but
the local sheriff's departmentthey they didn't they are unable
to to beef it up. So hence theneed for air medical. You know
we did did some a lot ofstabbings and a lot of crazy

(08:57):
safety accidents out really feellike Where's where's OSHA out
there? I don't know. We have myfirst we can talk about my first
scene call out there in a while.
But anyway, back to the timelinedid a year year and a half in
Willesden. And then I gottransferred to what was my dream
job I went with. I went to Cody,Wyoming and flew a year and a

(09:18):
half right outside ofYellowstone Park. My house was a
20 minute drive from the eastgate of Yellowstone. The drive
to the park was way better thanthe park and the flying another
brand new v3. So I got thissweet mountain helicopter and we
were landing above 10,000 onalmost a daily basis and a scene

(09:38):
called Grizzly bear attacks,snowmobile accidents, hunting
accidents, just these beautifulback country flying in vary as
far as the terrain goes justreally austere, non permissive
hostile, you know, big mountainshigh altitude, and it was cool
because the culture there wasdifferent you know? A lot of

(09:59):
just a lot of cowboys andmountain years and backpackers
and these people all worked youknow as the our paramedics and
flight nurses and it's coolbecause you know if you had a
chip light out there you couldbe camping for two days before
someone comes to get you so youcan say that's quite vital here
for Ellisdon godyeah no no I'm flying up and

(10:19):
down i Five you know my new jobcame to my knee and we've got
the company I worked for nowlifelight network we made this
dominate the Pacific Northwesthere I'm in Oregon. And you know
I showed up to work with myWyoming chestrig you know this
tactical looking chest rig withall my three days of survival
gear in case we land in themountains and I pretty much got

(10:40):
laughed out of the room up anddown we got across the mountains
every now and then but we haveso many bases in this area I
mean there's a company car youknow two hours away from every
player out there like in likeBear Grylls I'm ready to filter
my own out here on commandoI've gotten like like hydraulic

(11:05):
we have some survivalists youknow, here in you know, in the
Cody place, we always had thisjoke, like if we crash, you
know, we always talk about youknow, what's your, you know,
what do we get, you know, Sir,what's the survival situation
look like? You know, we'rerunning through scenarios and

(11:27):
it's funny where I was talkingabout, well, you know, Matt over
here, he's, we're gonna, youknow, we're gonna we're gonna
have a nice fire and Matt'sgonna be like, we're going to
look over and he's gonna havehis loincloth that he fashioned
out of you know, Raccoon skinand he's got a skewer with his
rabbits and squirrels and he'sgot the hydraulic fluid war
paint and then the camera pansover and there's the freeway

(11:47):
amazingThat's hilarious. So why did you
switch jobs if you love Cody somuch? What was the driving
factor behind that?
Well, that's a good question.
Um, I again the mountain flyingthe environment the people I

(12:08):
personally politically justloved that Wyoming culture and
lifestyle there and all thatkind of stuff. It was awesome.
This no company's perfect ofcourse loved this was Guardian
flights. And you know, Guardianflight is owned by the same
company that was reach andmedtrans and air evac lifeteam
In all these companies, it wasawesome experience. Not the

(12:28):
greatest, you know, could havedone better for benefits and my
wife was getting pregnant forthe second time and we're the
count of Cody was awesome, butwe weren't too sure about, you
know, how, you know, having ababy there and hospitals and she
was getting really homesick forthe Pacific Northwest and I was

(12:49):
too and so we're always kind oflike hey, if something comes up
back in Oregon or Washington,we're going to leave at it and
and the opportunity came to getback to Oregon so we jumped on
it and it's funny now every timewe miss it a lot every now and
then I hear my wife say shootingMiss Cody and I'm like

(13:13):
grass is alwaysgreener right? It is it is Yep.
Yeah So Cody Wyoming and thenand then did a year down in
Klamath Falls Southern Oregon.
So right on the NorthernCalifornia border pretty, you
know, just to hop over to thecoast on that side. And that was
with reach. So same sameumbrella different different

(13:36):
brands and and that was a reallycool spot to that was a good
transition because it was stillstill pretty wild and still
pretty mountainous down there.
And the scene calls wereinteresting. Just a lot of
national park stuff we hadcrater lake there and we have
the lava beds down south prettyyou know pretty not as busy as
Cody but some some fascinatingstuff. But I've got some fun

(13:59):
stories we can we can tell youabout as we go on from Yeah,
then from Klamath Falls up to tolifelight network, which again,
is an awesome company. It's oneof the only nonprofits medivac
companies that I'm familiar withthat are not hospital based
programs. And it's just beenawesome. My first my first twin

(14:21):
job as a captain, not a PAC, soI'm flying a twin and they've
got me trained up in a couple ofdifferent aircraft and for the
first year was doing a lot ofroving and moving around the
whole footprint of the companyand just cuckoo company and back
home in Oregon. So where they'reat now for the

(14:42):
same cause in Oregon have bearattacks as well.
We haven't had any barriers inOregon. And I'll tell you those,
yeah, those bear attacks are atrip and over, you know, we
there was a couple of times whenthe crew would have to Leave the
helicopter and go for a nicelittle hike, you know? And in

(15:04):
some cases, horseback rides withthe, with the ground personnel.
On you landed?
That's a Saturday. Yeah,when you landed the bear attack
or whatever, Was there somebodyout there with a gun or, you
know, just in case it was like aserial bear attack, you know,
kind of like Shark Week, youknow? They have like, Great
Whites out there. You know?

(15:28):
That's, well, that's a reallygood question. You know, in the
Yellowstone Area. Back in theday, people hunted bear on a
regular basis just like gettinga deer you would apply for your
tag they you know, the EPA, orthe Forest Service or whatever
or fishing game would determinehow many bears do we need to be
hunted to keep the populationand control now Yellowstone,

(15:48):
anywhere there's a bear problemin the country, the bears get
shipped to Yellowstone, andthere's a huge population. And
we they don't hunt them anymore.
And the bears are smart. Theyknow that they're not hunted and
the people that have lived theretheir whole lives are they see
more and more bear attackshappening? And it's crazy
because bear usually fish andberries right? They only really
get super carnivorous whenthey're about to go into

(16:11):
hibernation, and they're storingup their fat for the year and
that's when hunting seasonhappens. And back in the day.
According to the locals. Thegunshot would mean it's hunting
season and we need to stay awayfrom the humans now the bear
here that gunshot and it's adinner bell and bear attacks
usually happen when hunters aredressing out their game when

(16:32):
they've made the kill. Andthey're cutting up the game and
backpacking it up to hide downthat's when the bears attack
because it's an easy meal. Andso to answer
your bros on a good fireso you said to get to so

(16:53):
answer your question Jose Yeah,professional hunting groups and
experience hunters will not youknow you always go out and in a
team and yeah, it's it's likepeople will create a perimeter
and stand guard with weaponsDawn's wall the A couple people
are dressing out the game sothat they can defend and yeah,

(17:16):
and there's one that I did notgo on but I was at the base when
it happened. That was a greatstory. Professional hunting
group and up there inYellowstone a lot of people that
get paid to take they go and getyour guided hunting trips so
there was a professional groupwith some tourists they everyone
got their their deer their elkexcept for this one gal and

(17:37):
there was a guide that said hey,we'll stay back another day
we'll get you your kill whilethe rest of the team hikes down
and and that was where they madethe mistake. They shot an elk.
He was teaching this woman howto dress out the game when
grizzly bear came up and grabbedher by the shoulder and threw

(17:58):
her away oh my god lacerationsall across the chest dislocated
shoulder instantly, you knowpasses out and the bears down
there you know on the game andthis I don't know these these
guys are badass in Wyoming youknow, I don't know why he didn't
pull out you know, they all paircarry 10 millimeter Glock is I

(18:18):
don't know why what happened buthe decided to pull out his big
hunting knife jumped on the bearand started stabbing it know,
narrowly and and the bet Hey,this is a story and the bear is
like Oh, mosquito and rips himup. He's got lacerations all
over and he's thrown away. Andat that point, the bear grabs

(18:38):
the elk and runs away. This guywas able to with you know, just
bleeding, he was able to securehis own wounds, get over to his
client, fix her up, put her onthe back of the horse. They all
carry spot trackers so he hitsthe emergency button. Then we
have pre designated LCS outthere. He's able to start hiking

(18:59):
down to the nearest field andthen call Guardian flight you
know, he gets dispatched viaspot and they go up and meet
him. So what it was. Yeah, and afunny story about that. That
happened a week before my firstday in Cody, Wyoming. I show up
for my first day. Excitednervous mountain flying I get
this in my first day I get alittle I'm shadowing another

(19:21):
pilot would go on a littlefamiliarity flight look at some
of the LCS get an idea for thefor the terrain and and we're
signing off for the day. And hegoes oh yeah, by the way, Isaac
your first day by yourselftomorrow. There's a reporter
that's coming in to interviewyou about that bear attack that
happened this way. I wasn't onthat flight. I don't know. And

(19:43):
you know, and he said, Oh,you'll be fine. You hear you
heard the story. So I had totell that story. Just like I
told you and it was kind of likeit was yeah, here you go. Hey,
yeah. Yeah, that's fun stuff.
Fun base man. Really coolexperience up there.
I remember seeing the jobpostings for that. particular
job and I was like tossing backand forth like, oh, like is EMS

(20:04):
like, how do I want to live nearyellowest? Like, oh, blah, blah,
blah. Yeah, I don't I don'tremember exactly what year it
was. But I remember seeing thatpost very consistently on JS
firm. I was very tempted. I waslike, this close to like, time
for it, you know, but yeah,that's cool to hear about, like,
what it actually was like upthere. I wasn't sure if I'd like

(20:25):
small town life, you know, so Iwas kind of back and forth with
it.
Yeah. Take some getting used to.
Yeah, it was interesting.
Because they've got YellowstonePark, you know, and it's
Wyoming. The Cody is the home ofAnnie Oakley, you know, and
Buffalo Bill. So I mean, it'sgun culture and real life
cowboys and that real hardcorecountry live in but then they

(20:46):
have the National Park. So it'slike 50%, cowboys, 50%, hippy
granola, rock climb and nationalParkers, which is makes for a
really sweet culture, you know?
So they, you know, you've gotthe just the hardcore American
flags and patriotism. And thenthe other side, you got your
nice organic restaurants andyour fancy grocery stores. So it
was a it's a good, it's a goodmixture there. Yes.

(21:10):
So I like anybody that choosethat they have that they're in
that city, or in that town?
Yeah. Like the Yeah, the onewith the two dudes in the canoe
right in front of the airport.
Yeah. It just looks so epic infront of the American flag. I'm
just like, I just wanted tosalute it. I was like, I love
it.

(21:31):
It's the West, it's the West,you know, it's pretty cool. Are
youare you stationed at permanent
base, or what is your schedule,like currently at the base that
you're flying it up there andas as of last week, permanent
base, but for the first yearwith this company, I was a

(21:52):
float. So I basically wasresponsible for covering bases
within my section, my region,and then of course, they would
send me outside of the region asneeded. So for the first year, a
lot of travel, a lot of visitingNew bases, trying to keep my
mind wrapped around thedifferent models of aircraft
that each base has, whichthey're not all standardized at

(22:16):
this company. So littlechallenges there. But super
cool, because I'd be flying withone crew, you know, on the
beach, you know, for one week,and then I'd be in the Valley
for the next and Columbia Gorgeafter that. So it was pretty,
the float thing is very cool.
Anyone you know, if you'reconsidering this job, it's a
great way to get a feel for forthe company and meet a lot of

(22:39):
new new crowd, it's tough,because every base is a little
different. And you have to learnthat on the fly. The downside is
family, the family life, youknow, and I'd say if I was
single, I would be all over thefloat thing because I like I
like living out of a backpack,kind of like, you know, going
from hotel to hotel, and thenthat crew house to crew house,

(23:01):
that kind of thing. But man,it's hard when you've got a
family home and you don't have aset schedule, and she could be
gone for three days, you couldbe gone for 10. And you don't
know how much time you're gonnahave off and that kind of thing.
So, and that's, you know, that'skind of the nature of the
helicopter business, too. I'mnot sure you know, you've done
some different stuff. And forme, I even before Patreon was

(23:23):
doing a lot of traveling forwork and very volatile when it
comes to, you know, keep inkeeping the family secure and
cozy at home. It's been a 14year mission now to land a job
or we can just be home everynight.
We have it pretty sweet overhere for that. And neither of us

(23:44):
have families. But if we did,it'd be pretty sweet. We're
home. I mean, I work from 4amuntil 2pm, Sunday through
Wednesday, and then I'm offThursday through those through
Saturday. And so foreign three,home by two every day, man it'd
be a pretty sweet gig be apretty sweet gig. If I had a

(24:05):
family. You know that what we doout here, but it's pretty rare.
You know, this kind of aschedule is pretty rare in the
industry. I haven't really seenany sort of I mean, EMS pilots
who get based somewhere wherethey live, you know, where you
don't have to commute to yournext job. And you're either
working a seven day on seven dayoff or a 14 day on 14 day off.

(24:29):
Yeah, I mean, EMS can work forfamily life just you got to find
the right situation, the rightcity and unfortunately, when
you're first starting off, it'skind of hard to get the base
that you want originally,usually the jobs are in
undesirable locations whenyou're when you're first getting
hired on and then once you get acouple of years experience under

(24:49):
your belt, you can startapplying for the more desirable
cities bases like places thatyou would actually want to live.
So that's something if someonewas thinking about going into
emergency medical that you couldprobably not expect to be
stationed at somewhere that youwant to be for the first, what

(25:10):
would you say? Like year? Do ayear there two years? It really
just depends on what what opensup for you. Hmm.
It is a roll of the dice. Diane,it's so you don't know. I mean,
seniority is usually key, youknow what I mean? But I think a
lot of companies will take intoconsideration, oh, is this job
going to be a long term thingfor this person? Or is this just

(25:32):
this guy just trying to hop tothe next spot? So but yeah, I
mean, I, I put in a year withthis company before I landed
this one. And I feel like I gotreally lucky because this is,
you know, right down the streetfrom Portland, Oregon, where a
lot of people are, you know,wanting to be and so it's really
a roll of the dice, I think, butI think you said it, you really
need to plan on workingsomewhere, that is not your

(25:55):
dream spot for for a long time,you know, before before you can
get locked in. And you set italso the you know, usually
helicopter EMS operations arestood up where there is, it's
usually small towns far awayfrom urban centers, because
that's where, you know, that'swhere they need, that's where

(26:16):
they have the need to get peoplefrom the rural areas back into
town. And I have found that asmall percentage of these bases
nationwide are in really nice,awesome, desirable places. And
when they are, everybody in thecompany wants to get there. So
yeah, you gotta you got to stickit out, for sure.

(26:37):
And if anybody's interested injust seeing what's out there,
there's a website called j sfirm.com. And it's a great
resource, a place that you cango just to see what jobs are out
there. Most of the EMScompanies, most of the
helicopter companies, at leastthe big ones are going to be
posting the job listings throughthis website. And you can kind
of gauge what the industry isdoing just currently, what kind

(27:00):
of our requirements these jobshave. So again, that's a really
good resource, J S firm.com, togo check out just to just to see
what's out there. Now, when yourfloat pilot, did you find it,
you mentioned, you know, you'regoing from base to base, you're
working in different areas ofoperation, but you're also

(27:21):
working with different crews.
And I would imagine that workingwith different crews could
either be a good thing, or itcould be a bad thing. Because
you don't really get to knowyour crew members very well, and
you're doing such a complexmission, that I would think it
would be pretty crucial that youyou know, have really good
communication with the crewmembers that are on board with

(27:42):
you. So what were some of thechallenges that you faced in
that type of way?
That's an awesome question. crewcohesion is just such an
important factor of any businesswhere you are captaining, you
know, a team and it's an artform. And it's a science and

(28:06):
it's really takes a I believe ittakes a lot of kind of mental
gaming to really do it well. Andsome people like having people
person skills, you know, and Ithink I'm one of them, I have no
problem talking to strangers,and I can kind of sense this
person doesn't like me too much,or this person's nervous or
whatever, and you can kind of readjust your, your approach to

(28:30):
get people warmed up to it. AndI think that's where it starts
is just, you know, finding waysto become a good communicator
beyond that, and it's there's somany little aspects of good crew
building especially if you'reworking with a new team on a
regular basis and for all youpilots out there I'll tell you

(28:51):
for me it starts with the DailyBrief, the safety brief. You
don't want to flood them withall this non essential
information but you know, I'veseen some pilots you know, just
step in like yeah, you know, theweather is gonna be this their
craps looking good let's youknow, we're gonna have a good
day blah blah blah but you know,most operations will you no

(29:12):
respect for those FAA rules andthere's there's a little bit of
a checklist of things you needto burn through and like it
starts usually out with the I'msafe checklist. So I always
start off by saying, Hey, guys,I'm, I'm illness free. No one
told me I had to be on any medsand I'm not any meds I'm not
supposed to be on I'm sober. I'mwell fed, I am rested, and I'm

(29:32):
emotionally stable. And how areyou guys doing? Open up the
conversation and then we moveinto weather. Talking about the
daily weather condition of theaircraft. Hey, who's riding up
front who's on the night visiongoggles with me? What's the you
know, what's the moon lookinglike tonight? And we have fun
and we open up the conversationusually a good five minute brief
will turn into a 1520 minutebecause you get your crew

(29:55):
talking about what's going onwith them. You know, things that
happened on last shift and ityou know, you can All these
checklists points that we haveto cover. By the end of the
brief if I've never worked witha crew, if I've done it, right,
they're like, oh, okay, thisguy's a professional, he knows
what's going on, you know,hopefully, my brief will give
them a little bit of a, theability to breathe deep and

(30:15):
relax a bit. He's got it, wedon't have to worry about him
flying this aircraft, we canfocus on our job. That's where
it starts. And then after that,it's just, it's this this art
form, something that I thinkwe're all working on as pilots
is the the, the art of closedloop communication, right?
So verifying that you'vereceived that.

(30:36):
Exactly. And even just on, youknow, just making sure that when
we are flying, they have there'sno question they have, they're
never wondering, why is he doingthis? Why is he turning? Why is
he descending? You know, why isthat enunciator going off? You
know, I'm always letting themknow what my intentions are what

(30:57):
I'm seeing, you know, hey,you're going to work flying a
little close to the hill overhere, as we make this turn, you
guys going to hear bitch andBetty come on and yell terrain
at us? No factor, we got this,you know, for me, I, I just
don't want them second guessinganything. And I use my voice to
let that happen. Some pilotsthat I know, it's just it's a

(31:18):
different style to differentdifferent techniques, you know,
say, Hey, we're landing sterilecockpit. For me, it's like, Hey,
guys, I got the hospital helipadat 11, the winds are coming from
nine. That means we're gonnamake a descending left hand turn
to the pad, you know, and thenwe go through our pre landing
checklist there, they're neverguessing what's going on. And,

(31:38):
you know, same thing forweather. This is what I'm
seeing. You guys might notice,visibility's going down a little
bit. We're still safe, we'restill legal. I feel good. This
is my secondary plan. We've gota contingency, how you guys
feeling? You know, just keepingthe Congress keeping the
communications open, I thinkthat the silent pilot kind of
becomes a scary pilot whenyou're just a passenger. Yeah,

(31:59):
makes sense.
True. I mean, yeah, there'sdefinitely two different
techniques, because you alwayshear that, you know, during
critical phases of flight, whenyou're taking off when you're
landing when you're, you know,in these situations, especially
when you're in AMS and you'relanding at an unknown landing
zone, where they're like sterilecockpit is key, like there

(32:20):
should be no talking in thecockpit during the critical
phases of flight. But just asyou said, like, I think that as
long as you're, you're talkingout loud, you're also talking to
yourself when you're when you'retalking yourself through this,
because, you know, it's makingsure that you're not mentally
checking out during thosecritical phases of flight. Or
even if it's a landing zone thatyou've been to a million times,

(32:42):
you have to make sure thatyou're continuing to go through
those checks yourself, insteadof just mind numbingly going in
and landing. at that spot,you've landed a million times.
But if you're talking out loud,you're also reminding yourself
about these things, and thethings that you're checking,
you're communicating with yourcrew. And I mean, as long as
like, you know, there's not alot of chatter, I would say,

(33:04):
like a sterile cockpit couldalso just mean, no, just talking
back there to each other, youknow, laughing or joking around,
like, as long as it's pertainingto the mission and the safety of
the mission. I think that it'stotally okay to communicate out
loud with your crew. I would saythat that's accurate.
Yeah, you said it. I would arguethat sterile cockpit doesn't not

(33:24):
mean silent cockpit. It meansthat we're when we are talking,
we're only talking about thelanding and things that are
going on. And you know, I knowsome pilots are like, you know,
I don't want to teach my crewhow to brief approach plates. I
don't really need them learninga lot about whether that's my
job, but I do their job. And Ilike I try to think of the EMS
operation is kind of similar,more similar to like a military

(33:47):
aircrew. And that's something Iinclude my brief Hey, you guys
aren't just professionalpassengers that are doing your
job. While I'm doing mine. We'rean aircrew that all three of us
have equal ability to affect thesafe outcome of a flight. So
we're going to communicate likethat when it comes to sterile
cockpit. I love the back andforth, okay, guys, we're
approaching, you know, 300 feetAGL. Here's our descent angle.

(34:09):
I've got the trees up there atmy 11 o'clock, I'm going to lose
sight of the trees over at mynine o'clock. So hey, jack on
the left, keep your eyes onthose trees and let me know if
they're looking like they're tooclose. And that just gets
everybody like you said involvedwhen we're doing our orbit
around the scene call, you know,an improved landing area,
whether it's a high schoolfootball field or a little hole
in the woods. You know, there'sthat list that we go through.

(34:31):
You know, there's a lot ofacronyms for it for all the
things we want to see beforelanding off airport. That is an
outloud process for me. And it'snot just for me to go through
the list. It's so that they wakeup and go oh, yeah, okay. He
sees powerlines there. Yep, Isee him too. He sees the dog the
bushes. Yep, it's a dustysurface down there. We might get

(34:52):
some brown and I'm talking aboutall this stuff. So that they can
come alive and start looking atit and their eyes. is are there
to augment my situationalawareness, you know what I mean?
And then if there's somethingthat once they're alive and
they're looking, they might seesomething that I don't and
that's the whole key about theaircrew versus the professional

(35:12):
passengers in the pilot. But andI tell them, you know, that
that's, you know, wheneverthey're not task saturated with
their, with their patient workanytime they just I want them to
maintain that scan mentality. Sothat, you know, their
situational awareness isaugmenting mine. And boy, we,
you know, you know, the goodcrews talk and, again, yeah,

(35:35):
it's not silent cockpit is notnecessarily the sterile cockpit,
but you said it, when you'recoming into that helipad. What
we don't want to be talkingabout is you know, is that is
that foxy ER nurse going to bein there today and what you
know, Tom Cruise doesn't flylike this and Mission
Impossible. You know? That kindof stuff just to the job and
you're not gonna tip the handI couldn't you know, when I saw

(35:56):
tip the hat, I was like, off. Ihaven't finished that movie.
I've never even heard of thatmovie. Oh, got it. Yeah.
I've always said I'm gonna goback and watch it because it's a
helicopter moving. I want tospeak the same language as all
the cool kids but I just I sawsaw this little side view of the

(36:19):
helicopter going down into theinto the the sinkhole, you know.
So apparently, Tom during thefilming of The Last Mission
Impossible, you know, he's apilot, so he was flying the the
a star, and he overtook the crapout of that thing. And it's
sitting on fire. Yeah, it'ssitting, sitting in the hangar

(36:40):
at night on up in New York.
Yeah. Well, it's not in theirhangar. It's in their actual
like, where they're checkingpeople in
will say, a little bit ofGeekdom I love that scene. That
is a great anyone that loves theA star watch Mission Impossible.
Yeah, there's an amazing a starscene. I remember. I was in the
theater with my wife, and wewere watching it. And I remember

(37:02):
just like elbowing her, like,that's a be three right there.
Look, the panel. That's, that'swhat it sounds like. It would
sound like that, you know, like,that's what would happen, you
know, and, and she's justtotally, totally geek out on. So
we were gonna do like a YouTubeseries where we're picking apart

(37:22):
helicopter scenes and movies andlike, you know, check seeing
what, what would be realistic orwhat they totally get wrong, you
know, but yeah, I thought that'dbe kind of
fun. I love I love the rock. Youknow, he's like, you know, I
like his movies. But there wasa, there was a scene in one of
his movies where he starts ahelicopter using the crank

(37:43):
button. He's like, I forgot, I'mgonna mess up the quote. But
paraphrasing, like, the chick islike, the tail is broken on the
helicopter. And he's like, wedon't need to tell the fly. And
then he hits the crank button.
And like, they fly off the roof.
And I was just like, right.

(38:05):
After a big budget film, I mean,probably the amount that can go
into a good what do they callhim? A an advisor,
like, saltan you know, like ahelicopter consultant. Like,
there needs to be someone thatsays you don't push that button.

(38:25):
You know, you hit the on switch.
I mean, I would just imaginethey're just like, I don't know,
just press a button in there andpretend like you're starting a
thing. You know, there's thedirectors, like, no one's gonna
notice, but there's us a smallgroup of people. Like,
like, I'm a big, I likefirearms, you know, and I like

(38:48):
to go shoot with you, buddy.
Yeah, and I always trip out onmovies where dude never fucking
reloads. You know? I'm like, Goddamn, how long is that magazine
clip. He's like a handgun andhe's shooting like 100 rounds.
Well, you know what other guyshave unlimited ammo. These guns

(39:09):
are you guys are you guysanywhere near a veterinarian
right now? Because those pythonsare sick
sorry where's this going? I wasreally not
sure where that was gonna go.
That's hilarious.

(39:32):
Yeah, back back to the advisoris Jose to your point. I can't
remember what movie it was. Isaw a movie recently where the
guys scope on the rifle wasmounted backwards. Probably just
because it looks cooler thatway. You know, but then someone
that knows. And I think inaviation there's a lot of that
one of my favorites that I can'tforget. Can't get him on the TV
show Lost. Everybody seemedlost. Yeah, I don't remember

(39:52):
what season it was. There wasthe guy that played lawn more
man back in the day. He was thehelicopter pilot that crashed
landed on the island. Well, hedidn't crash like he either did
or there's a scene where theyrun out of gas over the ocean.
And as they run out of gas, therotor starts spinning slower and
slower and slower because we'reout of gas, the engine stops,

(40:16):
rotors just gonna slow down. Andand he's like, I can't come to
hands on the cyclic, I can'tcontrol it, you know? Yeah, you
can hear it. You can hear it thesound effects it's like man,
alright. Yeah, like if they ifthey lose an engine, and then

(40:36):
the helicopter just startedspinning out of control. Like
they had a tail rotor failure.
And you're like, that's that itthe pilot on the pilot would
have to be a complete moron. Tomake helicopter spin out of
there, like entering an autorotation, just full pedal not
doing anything else juststalling. And that to me in the
simulator. Let's go. Yeah, justkidding

(41:00):
back. Just one more for the forthe audience, the 18 movie that
came out with back 2007 orsomething like that helicopter
scene. They're being chased by aby a Mexican jet. They crossed
the border and this jet, theMexican Air Force fires a heat
seeker at it, you know? And sowhat do they do? I'm going to
turn off the engine, so that theheat seeker doesn't pick up our

(41:23):
signal, we shut down and heshuts it down. And instead of
entering an auto and glidingdown and watching the missile go
overhead, the rotor systemstops, you starts falling. And
okay, the missile goes overhead,and then we restart the engine.
And that's a good, there was apretty accurate one that I saw

(41:47):
recently. I forgot the name ofit. They were trying to sling
load, like a big thing of like abig load of gold or something
over a mountain. And they werelike, pretty accurately, about
like, triple frontier, theperformance of the aircraft and
it was starting to come down,you know, because they're
getting hired. They're like, Oh,the density altitude is good.

(42:08):
I'm like, wow, they're actuallygetting pretty accurate. Yes.
And oh, sorry. What's up?
You're right, Dan, that was agood movie. I know a lot of
people hated that movie. I lovedit. I thought it was a good like
the all the tactical shootingstuff was awesome to gear. And I
agree with you, Diane on thatpoint. But I think that that was

(42:29):
an affront to all professionalhelicopter pilots. All right. I
know we're in the movie reviewnow. But if you look back at the
movie, they're like, oh my god,we got way more cash than we
thought. Holy shit. And thepilot goes up to the you know,
it goes up to Ben Affleck. Hegoes, dude, we can't make it
over the Andes with all thismoney. We can't do it. We're
overlays and benefits like,well, I thought this copter was

(42:49):
was rated, you know, for thismany pounds. It's like, yeah,
that's at sea level. We got togo over the Andes. And he's
like, Well, you want to justleave all this cash on the
runway. And the pilot goes?
Yeah, okay. It'll make it right.
That justyeah, you just killed everybody.
Yeah. Oh, man, bad decisionmaking bad decision making. Now

(43:13):
I want to be in on this on thismovie review thing. I think we
got a good thing. Yeah,I think it'd be really fun. I
really wanted to get into. Sothat actually kind of is a
perfect segue into what I wantedto talk about next, which is
internal and external pressures,right? This is something that we
always have to deal with aspilots, and especially I would

(43:34):
imagine in EMS, dealing withknowing that there's a patient
on the other end of that flightthat needs your help. And that
pressure that there is to eitherfly in bad weather or a fly when
you're not comfortable. And Iknow that every crew member on
board has veto power. So any ofthe med crew can always say no,
go. And so in your experience,what have been some of the

(44:00):
biggest internal pressures,external pressures of being an
emergency medical pilot? And howdo you deal with them?
Yeah, well, I think you have toset your limits before you even
clock in, you know what I mean?
You got to have your weatherminimums, you've got to have
your visibility minimums. TheFAA has theirs that's legal.

(44:22):
Every company is going to havetheir sometimes it's higher,
sometimes it's equal to the FAA.
But each pilot has to have thathard line where they say, This
is what's going on. It's a no goand every pilot needs to gotta
have a secondary should neverget in that helicopter, go
flying to point B, unless you'vegot a contingency plan for where

(44:46):
you can go where you can land,what you know what you can do if
things start going wrong, butthe pressure is it's a it's an
emotional game, and I'll tellyou, I still struggle with it.
And it's funny because you saidit three times. No one to say
no. So any if at any time a crewmember is not liking it, it
doesn't you could be as safe ascan be. If they get the hair on

(45:09):
their back of their neck standsup if they're spidey sense
starts tingling. They say,Isaac, I need to be on the
ground, like no questions asked.
I'm not even going to not evengoing to question that we land
we just call that flying to thelowest comfort level on board.
And every pilot, you know, theoperation I work for now, we've
got pilots from so many walks oflife, military backgrounds,
civilian, we got Coasties, we'vegot combat pilots, we've got

(45:31):
badass firefight and slingloaders that have just some
memory used to fly in, in nastyweather and pushing the edge of
marginal VFR and some are notand you can kind of know, hey,
this guy's gonna turn down moreflights than this guy is. But
this guy over here, he might becoming back with a patient on
board, which is a really big nono to you know, politically. But

(45:52):
there's an interesting thingthat I struggle with, I've been
in EMS for five years now. And Istarted with flight instruction,
like a lot of civilians, and Iwent to agriculture, you know,
crop, you know, cherry dryingand hazelnut harvest and frost
control, flying in horribleweather, and then firefighting,

(46:12):
you know, get me as a co pilotin a heavy and, and those are
some crazy weather days. And,you know, we all have different
experiences. But in those jobs,even the canyon boy, I have
flown in scary weather in thecanyon, and I had the boss
telling me to go you know, andyou hit you, in most helicopter

(46:32):
jobs, we build up this ideathat, hey, it's a copter, we can
frickin land on the field, wecan land in that guy's backyard,
we can land in the parking lot,let's go test the waters, you
know, let's go out there, ifit's not good, we'll turn around
those who are passengers wouldrather go halfway and turn
around and not go at all, youknow, um, I feel like there was

(46:53):
always this ability to go try itout, you know, go do a check
doesn't work, you come back. Butwhen, when there's a patient on
board, and a scene call is alittle different, if you're
going to the scene of a caraccident, you know, I think it's
a little bit more acceptable tosay, hey, the weather's not hot.
But you guys, I need to get myteam of elite medical

(47:13):
professionals to the scene sothey can assist the you know,
just the the tier one kind ofparamedics that don't have the
expertise. And so that's onething. But man, when you're
taking a patient from point A topoint B, they're in a warm, cozy
bed, there's a reason they'reneeding to go to another
hospital. But it is not cool ifyou have to land in the middle

(47:36):
of nowhere, because you couldn'tget to point B. And I've done it
a handful of times, you know,and and it takes a little bit of
gaming. I had an experiencewhere the weather, we just
encountered this big blanket offog in the mountains. And I said
guys, we can't get this patientto the hospital, we're gonna

(47:58):
have to go land at this Podunkairport dispatch is going to
have to call us a fixed wing, itmight be our company buy me
another company, that patient'sgoing to get billed for two
aircraft now.
And boy, we were sitting on thepavement for like 45 minutes
with the engine running, I'mlooking at my gas gauge, shoot,
try to keep this helicopter warmwhile we meet the airplane. And

(48:19):
there's been, you know, there'sbeen times where we've had a
patient on board and it's justlike, hey, we can't get over the
hills here, we're going to go alittle farther can't do it can't
do it can't do it. Same thing,you know, we have to land
somewhere and give up onhelicopter ops, so that we can
put them either on a groundambulance, so it could have done
in the first place. Or jumpingon a fixed wing. And again, that

(48:40):
could come from your company oranother and so you got to, you
know, you got to kind of gamethat out and say, Hey, are you
know, what are the chances we'regonna make it to point A if it's
not 100% A conversation needs tobe had with the crew combination
needs to be had with dispatch,you know, everyone is really
honest about that. And sometimesyou'll go anyway, and sometimes

(49:00):
you won't, and typically,management will say hey, we want
you to try you know when butyour crew will say we don't want
to try there's a possibility ofus having to switch to an
ambulance halfway through soit's a it's a it's a weird
psychology and then to get backto where you think you started
the question. There's alwaysthis feeling of like, you know,

(49:21):
we're here to help you know ifif we're being called someone's
having a horrible day, andthere's always a ground
ambulance but they're decidingto go with the helicopter
because a we're going to be fastwhen when time is critical
stroke, coma, bleeding out,heart stopped whatever. And the

(49:41):
crew typically on a helicopterthese crews are the elite of
Paramedicine respiratory therapyand nursing these guys are like
ICU er qualified and they theytrump most ground personnel that
are riding around in a firetruck or an ambulance and it's
great to just get them To to thepatient.

(50:02):
Are they employees of thecompany? Are they employee are
Light Company?
Yep. Yep, some companies willhave will, it will train
hospital employees. But yeah,they train with you there.
They're getting paid by thesame, the same, same same bank.
But I'm really fascinatingpsychology that is happening in
EMS that's been going on for awhile. Is this idea that we

(50:24):
really try to not give the pilottoo much information about the
emergency? Once, once you land,you can see what's going on. But
when it comes to making the goor no go decision, when dispatch
first calls us, we read thepilot should not know if it's an
eight year old, or if it's a ifit's a car accident, or why

(50:49):
blah, blah, blah. And I thinkthat that's really comes from
the the insurance companiesstart trying and the FAA really
trying to change the way pilotslook at it, we just need to
know, is the weather good? Canwe handle the weight? go or no
go? And we and then you know,usually dispatch will talk to
the pilot, can you make thisflight happen? I can do it I

(51:10):
accept. And then they'll callthe med crew on a separate radio
separate frequency separatephone and say, This is what we
got this is the emergency pilotaccepted, let's go and that that
was a way to combat kind of thispost Vietnam era, go no matter
what get the mission to save theguy, you know, this industry was

(51:33):
started by people that werecoming back from Vietnam who
were trained to fly into thesescary holes under fire bad
weather, the mission is to savethe person on the ground, and
we're going to do it and thatcaused a lot of death and a lot
of destruction. And it reallygave the EMS industry a really
bad name in the 70s and 80s andearly 90s. We just the EMS was

(51:55):
really dangerous. And there wasa lot of stuff going on. I think
the insurance companies and theFAA and all these ha all these
safety groups got together andthey started changing the
culture. We don't say EMSanymore, we don't say emergency
medical system we can we used tocall it hims helicopter
emergency medical services. Andpeople still use the term but as
of a couple years ago, the FAAsaid hey, we would like you to

(52:16):
start calling it H A helicopterair ambulance. And a big
suggestion that was made I thinkit came from H AI and on
helicopter sociation theirnational right? You guys know
better than me, they started totry to change the culture. We
don't want to call thesemissions anymore. When you get a
call from dispatch, it's not amission. It's a flight request.

(52:38):
And there's all these sillylittle kind of head games that
we're playing right now to tryto change that. Go go go and get
the guy type of mentality. Andit's really I think we are
seeing a little change in thesafety culture. Yeah. Which is
really cool. Now, there's adownside of that. And, you know,
we, a lot of people talk aboutthe safety pendulum, you know,

(52:59):
back in the 80s, it was reallyon the dangerous side in the
business. And then we start toin, you know, when we kind of
Institute all these safetyprotocols and these little like,
psychological changes, like wewere just talking about, and the
pendulum starts to get to apoint where maybe it's a little
too safe. And now you have allthese people that you have. In

(53:20):
the last couple of companiesI've worked for some of the the
higher ups, the Analyze, youknow, the bean counters, and the
statisticians that are trackingeverything are saying, Wow,
we're turning down a lot offlights right now where the
weather was, we think maybe alittle was good. You know, we've
got a lot of men crew that arepulling the I don't feel safe
card when the pilot feels great.
And then now you have kind ofhigh ups in this industry saying

(53:44):
okay, now what can we do? Maybewe need better training better
equipment so that we can getthese pilots and these med crews
feeling safer to take some ofthe flights that we're seeing
we're probably well safe. Soit's a it's an I think it's a
moving target. Jose and Diane Ithink we're constantly trying to
pin it down. And I think thatpendulum is going to go from
safe to dangerous until we canfigure out how to get everybody

(54:06):
trained how to get the bestequipment on board and, and just
you know, have kind of astandard set path but every
helicopter is different. Some ofthem are IFR. Some of them are
VFR and every base is different.
We got weather on the coast, wegot weather in the mountains,
you know, it's different in thevalley. So it's a it's a great

(54:28):
question. It is a it's a longdrawn out answer. But that
pressure to go is sometimes it'sgenerated by your own self. You
got to be able to check thatsometimes it's gender by the
crew sometimes. I mean, we hadthat horrible EMS crash in I
think it was Ohio a couple yearsago right? I think yeah, not to

(54:50):
mention the name of the company.
But what if you guys have readthat report? Boy, there's so
much pressure from the companylike bad, like really legit
pressure coming down from theboss make money make money take
flights take flights and thosepilots were rushed it was during
shift change. She, you know, theoff going pilot said, Well,

(55:11):
there's good I would take it,you know, and then she was like
didn't even check, you know, nota lot of training didn't grab
the night vision goggles are somany things. And then and then
all these ex employees talkingabout the way management behaved
and management incentivizedtaking flights, you know, there
was big pressure to not missout.
Yeah, she was my friend. And um,it was just like, oh, man, it's

(55:33):
pretty. That's something else.
You know, it was a Yeah, as atragedy for sure. Yeah, the
culture there wasnot a safe culture that that
was, I remember seeing the flyerthat they that the company sent
out to all of the hospitalssaying, Oh, you guys, get
flights turned down will alwaysgo, well go no matter what,

(55:55):
where your guy, that kind ofthing. And I mean, that was
probably sent out by someone whowasn't a pilot. But one of those
bean counters up there beinglike, we got to make money. And
we got to let these hospitalsknow that we'll go with no one
else will go. But there's areason why no one else is going.
That may be people who aren'texperienced in the field, just
might not know why thesecompanies are really turning

(56:19):
them down. But yeah, that thatwas just a super tragedy,
unfortunately, something that wehave to deal with in the
industry of these thingshappening and to the dark side
of the industry. Andunfortunately, it takes stuff
like that to happen for changesto be made. What do they say all
the regulations are all writtenin blood, or, you know, because
something always has to, has tohappen before. But I think that

(56:42):
we're moving more into a cultureof safety. Like you said, the
pendulum has swung over tosafety, I do hear kind of horror
stories about there beingclashes between medical crews,
and the pilots. And the pilotsbeing like weather's great, and
the medical crews being lazy orjust not wanting to go or you

(57:02):
know, and pulling the I don'tfeel comfortable card when maybe
it's not necessary. So that'skind of something that I've
heard a lot of EMS pilots haveto deal with is or is that
clash, which makes it kind of atough working environment. You
know, we talked about howimportant it is to have good
crew cohesion. And when you getsituations like that, where med
crews and pilots don't get alongand start arguing about things.

(57:23):
And yeah, that could be a recipefor a dangerous situation. Yeah,
it really is. And it's, and Ithink I've seen it, you know,
I've worked for different brandsin five years, and you kind of
identify, you know, you got yourreal hard chargers on the crew
side that are just willing to goand try it out. And then you got

(57:44):
your folks that, you know, it'safter 1am and there's a good
chance they're gonna, you know,say they don't feel safe, even
if there's nothing to not feelsafe about. And the problem with
with even talking about this,and you know, I hate to call
call anyone out, but you know,it happens on the aviation side
to it. You were pumping thatidea that hey, three to go one
to say no. So if you're notfeeling good, don't call it and,

(58:07):
and you really have to respectthat. And unfortunately, it's
not a hard thing to exploit andtake advantage of. And I think
it happens on the aviation side,too, you know, pilots that are
just maybe just not supermotivated to get out and get it
done. And they can pull thatcard and you promise you never
want to second guess? Um,because, you know, you don't
want to be flying with anybodythat doesn't feel safe about

(58:29):
what they're doing.
Yeah, absolutely. Going intowe're kind of staying on the
same subject of safety here.
When I was going through yourresume that you sent, you
mentioned that you haveexperience with destination zero
SMS SMS means safety managementsystem. And can you kind of
elaborate on what that is?

(58:49):
Well, yeah, um, SMS, you know,safety management system. And
it's something that FAA isreally it's your instituting,
and all these 135 operations,and it goes along with the kind
of the just culture thing thatof course, you were I heard you
talking about with your F 16 guythat you had on recently. But
yeah, safety management systemis just something that these
companies put into place wherethey actually have, you know,

(59:13):
these pillars of safety and it'sall about just inspiring, just
culture and just keeping trackof all these things. And the
destination zero term, it's aterm that I learned at Patreon,
actually, and that destinationzero referring to, you know, the
goal of having no accidents inthe industry and different
safety organizations out there,whether it becames or you know,

(59:36):
we can talk about games do allthese. There's all these
certified certificates, sort ofcertifiers, certifiers, people
that certify agencies andoperators, you know, they get a
stamp of approval. Okay, thiscompany does all the things that
make them extra safe. So we'regoing to get them a stamp, maybe
they get a deal on theirinsurance but having a an SMS
program in place and typicallythat means a safety coordinator,

(59:58):
a safety officer You know,someone at the base level that's
doing monthly safety checks,having meetings and just
basically inspiring, you know, aculture of safety in the company
and every SMS program can be alittle different, but they will
all usually have some kind of astructure that just ensures an
ongoing culture of awareness andsafety. And, and yeah, that's a

(01:00:22):
for me, that was a resume point,because coming into EMS, you
know, that's something thatthey're really, really focused
on. And the just culture is abig one.
Was there any kind of in flightemergency you experienced? While
you were working in theprofession that sub Do you want
to share with us?
Yeah, man, I have a good story Ihave. I have a pretty epic bird
strike story. It was C 2017. Inthe North Dakota area. It was

(01:00:48):
November, winter really cold. Itwas about 1am or flying and
we're going from Williston tomine not we have a patient on
board, an A star. This patientwas a drunk driver. He was kind
of nasty on the scene. He'sintubated, so he's totally
unaware of what's going on. Andin this area, you guys aren't
familiar. There's a lot of lakesand small pothole bodies of

(01:01:08):
water. It's a major migrationarea, and we're all pretty keyed
into it. And we've all figuredout that hey, bub 1000 above
1000 feet AGL, you're typicallynot going to run any birds. But
I don't know the science. Ithink their little their inner
ears kind of serve as altimetersbecause you'll notice like
birds, oftentimes in one area,they're all flying at the same

(01:01:28):
altitude, even differentdifferent breeds, you know, and
so it's dark, we're under nightvision goggles in this in this
company, all three of us hadgoggles. But I am in the front
right seat. Of course paramedicis the back left seat, he's got
his goggles done scanning, theother guy has his goggles
flipped up and he's charting andgetting ready to drop this guy

(01:01:50):
up at the hospital in my not andthe town of mine not there's a
there's an Air Force Base and,and a class Delta airport, just
maybe two or three miles to thenorth of the hospital. So we are
in the controlled airspace. Andyou know, these are long
flights, there's a lot of justkind of zoning out and following

(01:02:13):
the magenta line, but at thispoint, we were keyed in, we had
already started to brief thelanding, totally awake and
alert, looking at the lights ofthe city, you know, under
goggles, trying to just plan outwhere the hospital is how my
approach is going to be. And Iremember just a few minutes
earlier, we're about 1500 feetlooking down and seeing the
little white specks of flocks ofducks underneath us going out

(01:02:36):
get their way down there, no bigdeal. flying along, I just made
my call towers closed at thispoint, but I just made the call
to the airport, you know,letting everybody know or land
in the hospital in you knowmedivac so we've got you know,
just kind of let everyone knowwhere we are. All of a sudden
it's like giant whitebasketballs just like six of

(01:02:57):
them are just under the rotordisc instantaneously. And I yell
you know be at the top of mylungs right as my paramedic goes
birds at the same time and thenit was like someone fired a
shotgun in the aircraft andwe're doing 120 knots speed it
was like saying like likesomeone fires shotgun right next

(01:03:18):
to my ear, my ears are ringingand instantly there's this
violent rush of wind andremember I'm under goggles so
now like there's feathers likeit's like a big simulation. You
guys fly with goggles butsimulations, TV you know screen
stuff and and but now there'slike feathers big stuff and just
the violent wind in my faceaccompanied by this like, go

(01:03:41):
like this scary shake. Good.
Good, good, good, good, good,good, the helicopters shaking.
Because not because there'sanything majorly wrong with it
at this time. But becausethere's a big hole in the
windscreen like the size of twobasketballs in the front left
windscreen, if I was sitting inthe left seat, man guy would
have lived so so what happenedis the first duck hit the

(01:04:04):
aircraft and I had 120 knotsthis thing bust through and it
vaporized on the back wall rightto the right of paramedic right
between the two seats. And thenanother two birds came in
through that hole and smack diedinstantly I believe. So we
immediately just immediately Ilower the collective right down

(01:04:28):
to the gauges everything'sperforming with a little less
airspeed I'm able to slow itdown guys you know, we hit a
bird note.
Instantly these guys are prosinstantly man if you guys
listening I've my Wilston crewyou two guys no no he are
awesome job instantly. They'rejust like no shit and I can hear

(01:04:51):
them like Okay, check thepatient check the line stats
good while they're like makingsure the patient's Okay. Guys
out, intubated, they're checkinghim. And I'm like guys, I'm
switching you For a second, Iimmediately get on ready to just
make a quick mayday call. As youknow, Mayday, mayday, mayday
helicopter, blah, blah, blah,we're structural, you know,
integrity compromised multiplebird strike, we're going to

(01:05:12):
divert to the airport and theairport. Management gets on
right away and they're like,hey, we'll have emergency crews
here for you. I switched thecrew back on. I'm like, hey guys
need to call in and let's havean ambulance. Meet us at the
airport. We're going to skip thehelipad. We're going to the
airport. They already on it.
They've got an ambulance come sowe lower power. We make that
turn to the left to divert tothe to the airport. Luckily,

(01:05:33):
Willesden is pretty flat, youknow, but I'm like, okay, and
it's bloody in here. You gotthat nasty duck smell real
windy, still shaking pretty bad.
The gauges look good. I'mthinking, man. These birds are
big. If they hit a pitch link upthere. You never know what's
going on with your rotor system.
Guys. We might need to autorotate, we might need to land
before we get to the airportskeep your you know, I got spots

(01:05:54):
everywhere. Just keep our eyeson it. We made it to the airport
and landed. And once we cut outman, we had struck eight to 10
birds in line with the air.
Yeah, and I'll tell you, I'lltell you if you guys get a
flock. Yeah, it was crazy. Andwe got I think we were so lucky

(01:06:19):
that the rotor system was didn'thit any impact. So what happened
on the we have the wire cuttingkits, you know, like the unicorn
horn, horn beard, and there wasa duck right in the cutter of
the upper one and there was aduck right in the cutter of the
lower one there was that bighole in the windscreen and we
had a vaporized duck on the backwall and then there was two

(01:06:41):
bodies at the feet of the medChris I think there might have
been three it might have onlybeen two but based on that back
one way it was just a splatter.
I think three ducks came intothe aircraft and then there was
a big hole right under thesearch light where a duck had
gotten in and there's a bunch offoam kind of insulation or there
they punched the hole all theway through that there was a
duck up inside the nose of theaircraft somewhere and then yeah

(01:07:04):
and then there the mechanic Italked to later he found strike
points and probably like sixother birds. So in addition to
the one on the the you know theeach on each cutter, two to
three inside the aircraft andthen the one that made it inside
the nose cone eight to 10 Airbirds that would that we hit we
got very lucky that you knowthat that the rotor system was

(01:07:26):
good and it didn't hit anyonebut I think if that bird I was
wearing goggles the way thatbird vaporized on the wall that
would have just come in in frontof me I think it would have
driven my goggles right into myeye sockets and we would have
crashed that helicopterthem into Airbus's helicopter
man, the star A star is bad is asweet ride especially the B

(01:07:51):
three and a little you know backyou know I wrote some reports
the company had me write wrote acool article about it they got
published and all these safetytalks but a big thing that that
this company started to go withafter that is alternating pulse
lights, Airbus the AudubonSociety and some of these

(01:08:12):
company on Metro aviation andsome of these companies that
make the lights have done somepretty amazing studies about how
pulsed lights are the one andonly thing that will deter
animals now I've hit since thenI've hit a duck with pole
flights on so it's not aguarantee, but it's amazing that
those ducks don't know you'recoming as loud as you are and

(01:08:33):
you know, you're not really thatfast and a helicopter you think
that these guys would have thatawareness but man helicopters
sneak up on large fowl all thetime. So pulse lights are an
amazing thing and by anyonethat's out there using goggles I
know it's a pain in the butt butif you can adjust your goggles
it depends on your helmet if youcan since then visor down

(01:08:53):
underneath the goggles ifpossible will be a great way to
to preventthem from hitting your face. And
not a good day to be a duckeither. Guys, probably not going
to be eating duck anytime soon.
Hmm one thing I love duck butone thing about the smell of the
blood in the fatno no you're just you're ruined

(01:09:14):
for life.
Yeah, and I think that you hadthe mechanic working on that
bird said it took 11 monthsbefore that thing was back in
service. Wow. So it'sfascinating. I have some great
matches okay you work thepodcast I can send you guys some
photos of the aftermath if youwant to put those up
yeah. I'll kind of just put iton the on the posts will

(01:09:41):
supplement Yeah, some photoswith the story so people can see
what's up, man. That's crazy.
Yeah, so glad you're okay. I'mglad the cruise Okay.
duck season.
opened one thing. One thing thatwas funny about the just a look
we all got out. Our hearts arebeing like wow, you Little
walking around this aircraftjust looking at the damage

(01:10:03):
massacre how and the and theparamedic who was eyes up when
it happened that Yellow Birds Itwas hilarious because he had his
goggles flipped on his helmetand it was like, like the ski
bum suntan. Yeah. This righthere was just white and this was
all just grease like he was itwas just a thick layer like it

(01:10:27):
looked like kind of like Ithought it right away and that
Stephen King movie carry youknow where the queen is just
like it was bad. And I rememberI remember just looking at those
guys and the other the nursejust pointed out and just
started laughing. He's like,What's going on man? It took him
forever to realize that he wasjust
covered in blood. I've only hadone. Oh, no, I've had maybe two

(01:10:49):
two bird strikes in my career.
The first one I was just comingout of the canyon there.
Quartermaster Canyon getting outthe guzzler, you know, and I'm
coming over and I just see thisBarrow and he's kind of like
spiraling and I'm like no, no,no, no, no and just like like up
the windshield and I'm like, oh,no, like, Man, I literally was

(01:11:10):
like my poor passengers becauseI was like on the verge of
tears, you know, because I feltso bad I was like, oh my god,
like sorry you guys were gonnahave to make sure it's not in my
cooler we had to go way out atthe dub and double check man the
cooler up there and make surethere were no birds blocking the
air coming in there. But yeah,he wasn't up there. But it was

(01:11:34):
literally like, oh, it just hurtmy heart and the other one was,
you know, yeah, just recentlynot recently and maybe like a
year ago, just flying out hereat nighttime. Going over the
mountains up there near did theSanta Susanna pass. I think
going over there. Zeus and Iwere flying at nighttime and
just like being there some bloodand guts but nothing ever like

(01:11:56):
really penetrated the windscreenbut yeah, that's insane. Gotta
be careful for what those birdsespecially around here at the
beach. Oh, yeah, kind of likearound dusk time you're getting
into like the sunset timeperiod. Those white birds are so
hard to see. I've definitelysnuck up on like a big flock and

(01:12:16):
was like, so lucky. It wasflying out of Santa Monica
airport, right there at sunset.
Everything kind of is the samecolor. The wipers are super hard
to see. And all of a sudden wewere just surrounded like to do
to do and like literally it wasone of those gut wrenching like
moments. And it was like, wow, Iam so shocked that we didn't hit

(01:12:39):
any of those. And yeah, thosethose kind of insane
crazy. Yeah, your harness stopsreally ever I hit I hit a little
guy in the canyon. I remember alittle sparrow like that. And I
do remember the passengers likeis it okay, is it okay? And I
remember I remember just kind ofgoing, yeah, he's good. He's

(01:13:01):
looking back. He's like, sorry.
Don't worry.
Oh, when I was a flightinstructor, we were flying them.
So when you're transitioning theshoreline by La X, the departure
path for Los Angeles goes overthe beach, so that they want
helicopters to be at like 150feet and below. It's called the

(01:13:23):
shoreline transition. So youhave to be like super, super low
down there. So you're obviouslyI've been be really conscious
of, you know, seagulls andkites. And you know, you're
basically high fiving people onthe beach as you're flying by.
And I just remember I we wereflying in our 22 I had a GoPro
kind of in the chin bubble thatare 22 and I just remember

(01:13:46):
seeing the seagull go byunderneath the chin, but I was
like, Whoa, that was close. AndI when I went back and watched
the GoPro footage, it washilarious. So this bird
obviously kind of caught in ourdownwash as we were flying by
it, and he rolled onto his backand he looked straight into the
GoPro it was just like thecamera wings out belly up what

(01:14:11):
the hell just happened? Andyeah, it was really the
expression on that birds facewas like what the hell is going
on? It was pretty funny. I likeput it in slow motion it was
like it'd be a great that'd be agreat like freeze frame have
like eyes wide open. And I don'tthink that was such a long time

(01:14:34):
ago. I have to have the photosomewhere. But anyways, man,
this has been such a pleasure tosee you and to talk to you again
and hearing all your funstories. And I think we touched
on a lot of really importantimportant things on this
episode. And we were from crewmanagement to sterile cockpit
versus silent cockpit, talkingabout external and internal

(01:14:57):
pressures. Thank you so much forsharing your experience with us
and with our listeners, I hopepeople at home really got some
good takeaways from all of yourexperience.
Well, it's my great, happypleasure, you guys. I'm stoked
to get involved and I'm superstoked for both of you to see
you guys. You know, putting inthe work and making this podcast

(01:15:17):
happen. I think the aviationside of the podcast world is
very light right now. And yes.
And so it's congrats.
Thank you for a lot of me goappreciate it. Yeah, some killer
stories rather than puttingliterally
next time on here, some ofyours.

(01:15:39):
They had an hour once we'regoing to talk, we'll talk about
that another. I think he's goingto draw it out there. That's
maybe a story for another time,but that's a deal.
Yeah, I'm gonna hold you tothat. You got it. And we go.

(01:16:00):
Alright, guys. Thanks again.
Have a good one.
Thanks, Isaac. See you later.
Peace. Wow, justwow, Jose just almost knocked
himself out with his ownmicrophone.
Yeah, okay. Close my eyes. And Ireally think that

(01:16:20):
was a microphone strike. Yeah,talking about. Oh, man. Yeah,
dude, seriously, though, Ilearned so much. You know, I've
never been an EMS pilot. AndI've always wondered what it was
like to one be a float pilot.
And also, I've always beenreally curious about that Cody,
Wyoming gig that I was seriouslyconsidering applying for. So

(01:16:42):
it's really interesting to hearhis insight.
Sure. First of all, CodyWyoming. I think it'd be a dope
place to go fly. Yeah, yeah. Oh,my God. Scenic was beautiful.
The people are cool, differentthan the LA basin. Oh, my God
way different. But I will sayyou're gonna have a lot of radio
calls. You know, True. True.
True. I think your comms arebroken.

(01:17:05):
I wouldn't know what to do. I'dbe like, What do I need to
switch radios every two sec.
I know exactly. I'm gonna be on121 Five and be like, hello. Is
there anybodyout there but amazing takeaways,
as always, from our guests,everyone brings such good
insight to their jobs and safetyand things that they have

(01:17:27):
learned along the way and thatknowledge they can pass on. And
I think that's what what'sreally important about what
we're doing here is that we'reactually bringing people with
real life experience, andsharing it with the world
because, you know, it's hard tofind mentors out there and
people who have done maybesomething that you want to do

(01:17:48):
and actually really know whatthe job is like or experiences
that you might have. So, youknow, thank you to all of our
guests who have come on to talkabout their stuff,
you know, for sure. I couldn'tset it any better scenario.
Well, I wrote off No, I didn't.
Completely improv, I promise.

(01:18:09):
Yeah, no, totally sincere fromthe bottom of my heart. Love you
guys. Love our listeners. Thankyou guys so much for your
support. If you have anopportunity and you'd like to
support the show, go ahead, hitthat subscribe button, leave a
comment or a review on Applepodcasts. As always, we'd love
to hear from you guys. shoot usa message on Instagram at

(01:18:32):
forever on the fly orflying sombrero. So hit us up
now and don't be shy. Bye.