What truly separates effective marketing from forgettable noise? The answer lies in powerful, persuasive copywriting – and few understand this craft better than Holly Seibert, founder of Holly Seibert Copywriting.
In this captivating conversation, Holly shares her unconventional path from marketing major to HR professional to successful copywriting entrepreneur. After experiencing two corporate layoffs, she realized the illusion of job security and took control of her own destiny. "Nowhere is safe," she reflects. "If your job is going to get eliminated, it's going to get eliminated. Having that control and being on my own was really what I needed."
Holly breaks down the psychology behind effective copywriting – that perfect blend of art and science that connects brands with their target audiences. She offers three immediately applicable strategies that will transform your business messaging: focus on benefits rather than features, keep your language clear and casual instead of complex, and always include a specific call to action. These fundamental principles work across industries, from tech startups to local service businesses.
As AI tools reshape content creation, Holly provides a refreshingly balanced perspective. While acknowledging AI's usefulness for research and brainstorming, she highlights why human copywriters remain irreplaceable: "AI is a machine. It doesn't understand the creativity and emotional connections of your audience." This explains why copywriting job openings have increased 22% despite AI's rise – companies recognize that truly persuasive messaging requires human insight.
For entrepreneurs struggling with productivity, Holly emphasizes the importance of avoiding "shiny object syndrome." Rather than chasing every new tool or trend, focus on revenue-generating activities and simplified systems. Her own success comes from implementing consistent daily habits, including identifying her five most important tasks each day using a pen-and-paper planner.
Ready to craft messages that truly connect and convert? Listen now to transform how you communicate your value and build meaningful relationships with your audience.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Forget what you've heard.
Forged in Fire is where realentrepreneurs come to share the
untold truths of success thelate nights, the crushing
setbacks, the moments thatchange everything.
No fluff, just fire, ready tostep into the heat and unlock
(00:24):
what it really takes to build abusiness.
This is where legends are made.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Welcome back everybody to another exciting
episode of Forged in Fire.
I am your co-host, nateFarmer-Eden.
Allow me to introduce mycounterpart, cole.
How we doing brother, come onstage.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
Doing good man.
How are you doing today?
Speaker 2 (00:47):
I'm doing good.
I'm doing good, man.
The family was sick for likethe last, I don't know.
It feels like month, but I'mfinally starting to come out of
it.
So I think I'm getting well.
I think so.
It feels that way.
How about you?
Speaker 3 (01:09):
man.
What's going on?
That's awesome.
We're doing good over here.
Today's one of those days where, like, wake up, sun's shining,
everything's good.
Look at my phone.
Everything starts burning tothe ground and we're doing
better.
Our day's slowly turning around, but you know, there's always
those good days.
So it is what it is, but I'mexcited to be here.
I'm excited for this guest.
There's a lot to go into.
This is one of my favoritetopics, so it's going to get
interesting.
But a few housekeeping thingsfirst, right, as we know.
(01:30):
So first leave us rating reviewHelps us grow, helps us educate
more people, so that would beawesome.
Second, please subscribe so youcan get the next episode and
the one after that.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
And, lastly, sit back , relax, enjoy the show and the
one after that, and, lastly, sitback, relax, enjoy the show.
Here we go.
It's going to be amazing.
Today we are joined by Holly.
Holly is a copywriting expertand runs her own business doing
so.
So, without further ado, holly,come on stage.
How are we doing?
Speaker 4 (01:57):
Hey guys, how are you ?
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Doing awesome.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
So please tell us a little bitabout yourself.
What got you here?
What brought you here?
Speaker 4 (02:05):
Absolutely so.
My name is Holly Seibert and Iam the owner founder of Holly
Seibert Copywriting, so I'vebeen in marketing for, oh gosh,
over a decade.
I was a marketing major incollege, kind of took a dotted
line to get where I am now,started my career in human
resources and talent acquisitionand let me tell you, though you
(02:30):
want to learn business acumen,then HR is really the way to go,
but it was always in marketingin some way, whether that was
managing an employer brand oroverseeing know, overseeing copy
content and social related tocareers eventually made my way
into customer success or took onmore of a sales role, but once
(02:54):
again, that copy marketingportion was always there, and
then, you know, I mean anyone ina W2 position.
It's kind of like there has tobe something more right.
I went out on my own last year.
I always love the messagingconcept of marketing or
(03:15):
copywriting and getting thatbranding and connecting brands
with their target audience.
I just always loved it.
Connecting brands with theirtarget audience.
I just always loved it.
And so went out on my own as afreelancer and it's been fun.
I have worked on projects thatI don't think I would not have
had the opportunity to do had Istill been in a corporate role,
(03:39):
and so, yeah, it's been amazing.
Speaker 3 (03:43):
That is awesome.
I want to dive into that a lotmore.
So you mentioned you've alwaysbeen in marketing.
It sounds like you've just hada drive for it, something you
liked.
Is there something specificallyabout it that draws you in, or
is it just kind of like aninnate thing that you just are
drawn to it?
Like, for instance, I just lovereal estate.
I couldn't really tell you whyI love apartment buildings.
It's kind of a weird thing, butI just do so.
(04:05):
Do you have the same kind ofthing, or is there something
specific about it?
Speaker 4 (04:08):
I think, you know, that's so funny because I think
back to, like I mean, I was incollege a long time ago.
But you know, even in classeslike a retail class, you know
that the psychology behind itand why stores set up the way
they do, when you look at an ad,why is it said?
It's it's like the psychologyof it and getting that
(04:31):
connection, you know, from acompany to the audience and
getting them to take that action, and so I think that that's
just like the tip of the iceberg, but kind of like you said, you
know, you're just like there'sjust something about it that's
like oh yeah, you want to, youwant to talk about that.
Speaker 3 (04:48):
So it's funny because one of the things that I
noticed that you have and I juststarted putting it together as
we're doing this is a lot of ourguests that are successful
entrepreneurs just ask that why?
It's just they have this thingthat they like, whatever it is,
and then they just can't stopasking why and it eventually
turns into something big andsuccessful.
So I like that you do that, andI'm sure Nate can agree.
It's something we always see.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
Thousand percent, and I guess I'm the same way like
that especially.
We're thinking of what you weredoing back then and then going
through college and all that, somaking that actual transition
into running your ownsolopreneur business.
What kind of struggles andtrials and tribulations did you
go through?
Speaker 4 (05:28):
take us through some of that journey yeah, I mean, um
, well, I, I was, I was not thehappiest human, um, and I don't
wanna, I don't wanna bad mouth,you know any?
Any organization?
I, I, I wasn't happy and it was, was that constant like, come
on, what, what is it?
What's missing here?
(05:48):
But so much is mindset, gettingout of that employee mindset,
because then you hear, oh well,well, your health insurance, oh
well, they contribute to your401k and it's like, but you can
still contribute to the 401k asa, as a business owner, as a
freelancer, it's that mindsetthat you know you're not just
(06:11):
going to sit there, you know anddo your work and go home at
four or five whenever it's likeI want to, I want to work hard
and I want to do it for me.
And getting out of that likethis is now a business, because,
as a freelancer and I think anysolopreneur kind of listening
to it is that, yeah, it's not ahobby to me, it's a business,
(06:34):
even though right now it is justme.
And I think any solopreneur orfreelancer don't think of it as
a hobby.
It's a business even though itis just you.
You can be a department of one,of all departments and it's
just you.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
It's so good.
Let me ask a follow-up, becausethis is so good, so could you
hit on something that I just gotto dive into?
So, going from that exactmindset shift of W2, they'll
take care of you.
They've got your back to now.
It's just you wearing all thehats and you.
So what was that like for you?
Like all of a sudden now havingto make sure that you're
tracking your own KPIs.
(07:12):
You're now making sure thatyou're doing all the finance,
the budgeting, the marketing.
How did that all go?
Speaker 4 (07:17):
Yeah, I mean, I think , and I think, because of my
kind of like, I said the dottedline in my career that you know,
oh, I was familiar with allthese corporate yes, corporate
departments.
But kind of taking that downand you know, of course, you
know, joining those freelancingnetworks and their sites out
there and kind of having thatcommunities you know people to
(07:40):
lean on, ask questions that havebeen there is absolutely vital.
I, I don't think I could havebeen where I am today alone, um,
that you absolutely need thatcommunity, um, and so, yeah, you
know that and I also, you know,didn't mention, is that I was
actually laid off twice, um,different organizations,
(08:02):
different reasons.
One was a bankruptcy entireorganization was let down,
entire organization was let down.
The other one was anacquisition Our entire team was
let go, they took it offshore,and so I'm like nowhere is safe,
you're not going to sit thereall cozy in your corporate job.
I was just like you know what,forget this, I'm doing it myself
(08:22):
.
So, yeah, and I think, havingthat mindset that like no,
nowhere is safe, if your job isgoing to get eliminated, it's
going to get eliminated, and sohaving that control in a way to
a point and being on my own,that's really, I mean, what I
needed.
It's all mindset really.
It was, it was.
(08:42):
It's all mindset really.
I love that.
Speaker 3 (08:46):
We harp on mindset all the time and I just think
it's like the, I would say,debatably the most important
thing in business just allaround, because if you don't
have the right mindset it'sgoing to be so incredibly
difficult to succeed.
And there's a couple of thingsI just want to go back to that
you brought up and I think it'shuge to touch on, like the
employee mindset and not just asan employee.
That's fine, that's all welland good, but it's just the fact
(09:07):
that, like in school, in ourwhole education system, we're
trained to follow.
We're not trained to lead.
It's handed an assignment, doit this way, it's just given.
And so trying to break out asan entrepreneur and trying to
like learn how to lead and howto do things differently and not
just follow rules but actuallyexpand, is so difficult.
So I love that you mentionedthat, um, and also like the
(09:27):
hobby versus business, I think,like you said, to have that
control and to have the piecesyou need to treat it like a
business.
It's a money generating machine.
It's not just like let's gopaint on the side and do
whatever in our free time, likewe're taking this seriously.
So that's so big um.
There's so much more I coulddive into there, but I'm going
to digress.
I want to go into some copystuff because I'm just way too
(09:49):
excited.
So can you give more?
Just give us some fundamentals,I guess, on copy.
What are things that ifsomebody knew nothing when
they're listening to this andthey're like my messaging sucks,
I'm getting nothing, where doyou start?
Speaker 4 (10:04):
Sure.
So I think a lot of people hearcopywriting and they think of
like the legal, like copywritingwith an R.
This is copywriting, likeactually writing, and it's
really an art and a science.
I think of it as both.
It's like a hybrid, but it'sreally writing that persuades,
(10:27):
influences.
You want that audience, thatperson reading it, to take an
action.
Yes, people think of buying aproduct, absolutely, but maybe
that's just to sign up for yournewsletter, Maybe it's to listen
and subscribe to a podcast,maybe you're a company and you
have employees and you need topitch them on a new program that
(10:49):
you're rolling out.
You're still, you need to getthem on board and you need to
persuade them.
That's copywriting.
And so, in a nutshell, it isreally the art and science of
writing that persuades orinfluences.
And any business needscopywriting.
I mean your website that's thebiggie.
(11:09):
Emails, social media I knowthat that's the big one.
Ads, digital ads or print adsIf you're a brick and mortar and
you need to, you know, get yourmessage out.
You know.
Print ads oh my gosh.
Sales pages, landing pagesthose are a huge one.
The list goes on and on.
Speaker 3 (11:32):
We have a quick interruption question.
So would it be fair to say that, like, as you improve on your
copy, let's say your writtencopy, your, like, your speech
would also kind of improve withit?
Or those completely separate?
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (11:46):
your speech, um, I mean I, I guess in a way, um, I
will say with copy, I meanespecially, I think in like,
like I take an ad, for example,a headline might not always be,
you know, grammatically correct,but it's meant to grab your
attention.
Um, but as far as like yourspeech, as in, just to confirm
(12:10):
you, you mean like, basically,how we're communicating.
Speaker 3 (12:14):
Yeah, and I just mean like okay if somebody can write
excellent copy, let's just saysomeone starts from zero and
they slowly improve.
When they're talking to, let'ssay, a client or a potential
client, are they going to bebetter articulated because
they've now had practice writingit consistently, or maybe not.
And it's completely unrelatedto something I'm curious of.
Speaker 4 (12:32):
I don't know if I can 100% or if I have the right
answer to that.
I guess it would depend.
There's a lot.
I feel like there's a lot offactors there that I'm thinking
of because there's differenttypes of writing.
Right, you have copy we'repersuading, we're influencing.
And then you have like a blogpost.
To me, it's content Is iteducating, Is it entertaining?
And then you have like a blogpost To me, it's content Is it
educating, Is it entertaining?
Are we telling a story?
Are we building a brand?
(12:52):
It's written for a differentpurpose, if that makes sense.
Speaker 3 (12:57):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
Yeah, it makes sense.
So many questions, but you andI we talked about this months
ago, but I want the world toknow thoughts on this.
Where do we stand with copyversus AI right now?
Because there's so manydifferent tools that folks have
been utilizing with, like chat,GPT and all these other
instruments that are just likeyou know what.
(13:20):
We'll just throw it on in hereand then we're just going to
throw it out to the world and Idon't even have to think about
it for blogs and whatever else.
Where do you stand from yourperspective on folks utilizing
that?
Speaker 4 (13:30):
Yeah, I mean AI.
I mean it's not going away,right?
Is it absolutely?
Is it a useful tool whenrunning a business?
Yes, I use it for likescheduling.
I use it for you know, I haveall this stuff I have to do.
Can you write me a schedule?
Or, if I'm working in a newindustry for research,
(13:52):
absolutely, it can be very, veryhelpful.
When it comes to copy, I usethis example and I actually just
got an alert today on my phonefrom LinkedIn that copywriting
job openings have increased 22%.
That was as of this morning.
That's what LinkedIn told meand honestly, I've been seeing
(14:14):
that for the past few weeks, andthe reason that I bring this up
is that I think years ago say Idon't know two years ago, when
really AI was becomingmainstream, is that companies
like you said oh, we can get ridof our teams and use this robot
and it'll be great.
(14:35):
And I think people arerealizing that that's not the
case.
I mean AI, it's a machine.
You put stuff in, it gets stuffout.
It's not a human.
It doesn't understand thecreativity, the emotional
connections of your audience,and so it really can't hit that
(14:58):
psychology piece that I wasbringing up because it's a
machine.
Now is it great if you're stuckon a sentence like where am I
going to go with this as a tool?
To go with this as a tool,absolutely, but to completely
replace humans?
No, I really don't see that,and I brought up the job opening
thing because I really thinkcompanies are realizing that,
(15:20):
that they're like we have to, weneed these people back and so,
yeah, that is my answer on AI.
Speaker 3 (15:29):
I love it and I think it's good because it's funny,
because you know, a year, twoyears again, whatever the
timeline is, I think there's alot of fear surrounding this in
many different industries.
Is AI going to demolish thisindustry, that industry?
What's going to happen?
And I think a lot of peoplepush for that and there's good,
bad ugly to it, you know foragainst it, whatever it may be.
(15:50):
But I think it's good to knowthat you're just like you're
saying there's always going tobe a place for the human element
and there's always going to bethat piece to come in.
And, like you said, it's justhard to really I don't know for
a machine to do it, so it'sinteresting.
Speaking of I'm curious of thenitty gritty Again.
I just like thinking of thenitty gritty again.
I just like thinking of theperson that's listening to this
(16:10):
going like, okay, I need copy.
Should I hire an expert?
Should I try doing it myself?
If I try doing it myself, whatare some things I should pay
attention to?
Can you speak to that a littlebit?
Speaker 4 (16:19):
Yeah, absolutely, and yeah, I do agree.
You know I feel likecopywriting and this is
absolutely no I.
Everyone all has theirexpertise, is it's like?
I feel like sometimes it's thelast thing that people think of.
You know, you create these likegraphic designs always seem
like the cool kids, right?
You know they're like creatingthese super sexy websites, but
(16:40):
if your messaging isn't on point, people aren't going to stay on
your site, and so they really.
I think it is something thatdoes need to focus, and if
you're not ready to invest in acopywriter, a professional
copywriter, that's fine, youknow, if you want to go at it
yourself.
I would say three maintakeaways.
Is one focus on whatever youare offering a service or a you
(17:06):
know a product, focusing on thebenefits of that rather than a
feature.
I'll give a really bad exampleof like I don't know a pillow.
Say, your pillow is stuffedwith I don't know organic bamboo
.
Okay, cool, what does that mean?
What's in it for me?
What's in it for your audience?
Does that mean they get areally great night's sleep?
(17:27):
Does that mean they don't havepain in the morning?
I'm not a pillow expert, butfocusing on the benefit of that
service and product, I would saythat's the number one.
Number two is keep it clear,keep it casual.
Maybe your tone is casual, butI think a lot of times,
(17:50):
depending on the industry,people get super complex and
they're using this fancy jargonbecause they want to sound
credible and they want to soundlike experts.
But it can really take awayfrom your point and your
audience is sitting there goingwhat, what are they?
Oh, okay, that's what they'retrying to say.
So to me, concise and clearwords is always the best thing.
(18:14):
And then I would say numberthree is always have that call
to action.
What are you trying to getthese folks to do?
Do you want them to buy theproduct?
Do you want them to subscribe,follow like it, share it?
Have a really clear and concisecall to action.
I would say those three tips,kind of to get started.
(18:36):
And there's a ton of resourcesout there.
And I would say too you know,if you do this as a solopreneur
or you know a business owner andyou're like I'm just not sure
if this is right, yeah, maybethat's something you look into.
You know is is hiring aprofessional, um, or a lot of
times I know a lot ofsolopreneurs.
(18:58):
I'll use an example like Idon't know coaches.
There's a lot of reallysuccessful coaches out there,
but a lot of times it's justthem, um, and it's they kind of
hesitate to hire a professionalbecause it's well, no, it's me,
this is my brand.
No one can say it like I cansay it.
I will tell you that a goodcopywriter is going to, they're
(19:19):
going to nail that brand voiceand that tone and you're not
even going to like, it's goingto sound like you.
A professional copywriter, agood one, will be able to do
that.
So hopefully that was that wasa lot.
Hopefully someone got somethingout of that.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
So this was amazing so far.
Oh, my goodness, anybody that'slistening.
That was a mic drop moment.
Make sure that you pause,rewind, play this whole thing
back to this point.
So far, two questions, and theykind of can flow into each
other.
But right now, what is yourtarget avatar look like, in
terms of who it is that youwould like to work with?
And then two coming fromsomebody that's worlds better
(19:59):
than I am when it comes to thiscopywriting and all of that.
What is it that you're doing tobe able to attract any type of
new business?
Speaker 4 (20:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:07):
Wait, I want to add on a three to that.
How did you decide on youravatar?
New business.
Speaker 4 (20:12):
Yeah, wait, I want to add on a three to that.
How did you decide on youravatar?
So I would say that you hearthis a lot too is people will
define a niche and they willkind of silo themselves in a
particular niche.
I like variety, and so, as faras industry wise, you know I'm
(20:36):
very.
I have worked in a variety ofindustries, from, I mean, pet
care to the events industry,saas, tech.
But what I will say is, as faras the size of the company, I
really love that like small tomedium size, that where they're
like I need, I need help, youknow what can I do?
(20:57):
Um, and so to me it's about the, the person or the size of the
company, not so much theindustry, but the, the
organizations that are reallyready to take it to the next
level.
Or they're like yeah, you know,I do need to invest to really
redefine my brand messaging,connect with the audience, do
(21:19):
all the things the tone guideand the brand voice that really
value that.
And they're ready for thatBecause, like I said, not
everyone's going to be ready fora copywriter, and so, yeah, I
would say like the small andmedium sized business that's, or
even a solopreneur that is kindof ready to take it to that
next level.
Oh my God, what was the secondquestion?
Speaker 2 (21:43):
So it all kind of blends together.
But the other question or Iguess part two to that was what
are you doing to be able tomarket?
That's right.
Speaker 4 (21:53):
So currently, right now, I do cold pitch.
It's tedious, but it works.
Speaker 3 (22:01):
It's the direct line to work.
Speaker 4 (22:02):
Dive into that more.
What was that?
Speaker 3 (22:05):
Dive into that more, give me more details.
What exactly does that looklike?
Speaker 4 (22:08):
So I will kind of you know one.
I never just send out thoseblanket templates that are like
hi, I'm a copywriter, you havework, let me help you.
No one wants to read that.
It's really about findingsomeone that I think would be
you know.
Hey, you know, let me reach outto this person and always try
(22:30):
to find the good email, a goodemail to send, not the you know,
generic ones, but sometimesthat's what you're, what you're
given.
Um, always kind of making itknown that I've looked at their
stuff.
Um it, I'm a real person, I amnot a bot.
Um, and then I always want togive them an idea.
Um, and then I always want togive them an idea.
(22:54):
You know, hey, saul, you haven'tupdated your blog posts in you
know a year.
Uh, did you know a blog postcan help with SEO, you know?
And just kind of providing somekind of value, um, and then, uh
, hey, want to connect on a call.
Keep it, keep it brief, keep itfriendly.
Everyone's time is valuable.
But, yeah, cold pitching issomething that I do, still do.
(23:17):
I have gotten clients from it.
I also do some inbound as well.
I have a blog on my siteNetworking, always love to
connect on coffee chats, even ifit's not going to be about work
.
There are people that I connectwith every month and it's
almost just like a you knowadding to my community and maybe
(23:39):
one day they'll have work.
Maybe they won't, um.
So yeah, that's kind of the tworight now, because it's always
like I'm writing for otherpeople and I never have time to
write for myself.
But those are kind of the twomain areas that I'm writing for
other people and I never havetime to write for myself.
But those are kind of the twomain areas that I'm focusing on.
Speaker 3 (23:53):
That's awesome.
I I've been diving so deep intocold outreach recently and I
it's.
It's just fascinating to me andI like that.
You said, um, these threethings that I've keep hearing
over and over again, which ispersonalizing the message,
making them aware that you'repaying attention to them and
they're not just a Joe Schmo,like you said, to giving value,
(24:13):
like you said, having an ideahere's something to add on value
, just free off the bat.
And then, obviously, the callto action is critical.
So I just love that you broughtthat up.
Speaker 4 (24:24):
And I will add I mean I've worked on sales teams
before, even when I was arecruiter.
I mean it was sales and it's noone likes that salesy or a lot
of the companies I'm reachingout to.
They don't want to be, theydon't want to know they're being
pitched.
And it took a lot to kind ofpull back on that that salesy
approach and just being like,hey, they're dropping in here's
(24:46):
a gift, you know, and on my way,drop it in, here's a gift, you
know, and on my way.
So yeah, kind of finding thatbalance was definitely a
challenge for me.
Speaker 3 (24:57):
That's awesome.
So I want to kind of go backinto a different direction,
which is when it comes to yourbusiness side.
How are you tracking things orwhat works for you?
Meaning like, how do you trackclients, how do you track
numbers, how do you trackeverything you do?
Speaker 4 (25:09):
Yeah, so I try to.
I was falling into the trapwhen I first started of getting
distracted.
There are so many shiny thingsout there, especially for new
business owners, and a lot of itcan take away from you taking
action on actually, you know,doing revenue generating
activities.
(25:30):
So for a while I actuallyworked on a, on a Google sheet,
to track my leads.
Now that was not productive forme at all Cause I was used to a
CRM or an ATS and I was likethis is not going to work.
I need to be in a CRM.
(25:50):
So I actually use there's a,there's Google it.
There's plenty of free versionsout there.
There there are ones.
When I was in recruiting, I knewof Zoho recruit.
They also have a CRM.
I know HubSpot has a CRM.
They have a lot of resources,for I wanted to be able to
(26:11):
accept online payments.
So that was the thing Keeptrack of leads, have my business
email.
I had that set up, had mywebsite they're from the same
provider and then payments.
I personally use Wave Financial.
In my copywriting group.
It was recommended to me and Iwas like well, if it's good
enough for all you wonderfulpeople, it's good enough for me
(26:35):
and that right now I'm okay, I'mgood.
Do I want to add all the funand shiny things I do?
But to me it's so important tonot get distracted and focus on,
like you know, actually drivingbusiness and driving results.
So those are kind of the threelike main tools that I use.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
I love this so much.
Oh my gosh, this is somethingthat we talk about consistently
Mints and, of course, thingsthat are driving and moving the
needle forward.
So often, just like you put, weget that shiny object syndrome
where we stop and we we're likepause in the moment and we all
this busy work, but is itactually productive at the end
(27:22):
of the day?
If it's not moving the needleforward, you're wasting time.
So I we agree a thousandpercent and a lot of it was.
Speaker 4 (27:29):
I had heard about this copywriter.
You know it was on a podcastand she was easily making over
six figures and she had Googledocs and a Gmail and that was it
.
And I was like, oh my gosh, andI I always kind of that kind of
brings me back home Like youdon't need the all the fancy
things.
(27:49):
You know you need to takeaction, Like thinking and
dreaming can only get you so far, but it's, what can I do to
move forward?
And, like you said, move theneedle.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
On that same topic.
Before we dive into, we have aspecial gift for you.
But before we get there, onelast question on this topic.
So where do you see yourself inthe next let's just call it one
to three to five years what'syour future outlook?
How do you want the company toexpand?
If you want it to expand?
Speaker 4 (28:21):
Talk to us a little bit about that.
Yeah, I would.
As I said, right now I am afreelancer, so for all you
solopreneurs listening,listening out there, that's cool
to be a department of one.
For now I I would like to getto six figures.
That is my goal for this year.
Replacing my full-time incomewas number one.
So that did that kind of thatnext one, you know, moving into
(28:45):
that next kind of income levelas far as usually, as far as a
copywriter, I don't know, Idon't know if that is for me.
I definitely don't want to goback to being an employee, I can
(29:09):
tell you that, but right now Ithink a lot of my goals are
income-based.
I also want to point out that Idon't necessarily work a
full-time schedule every week.
I try.
I do have two elementary-agedkids at home, so work-life
balance is important to me andenjoying outside and everything.
(29:31):
So, yeah, I'm working about a30-hour week right now, and that
was something that I was neverable to do in the corporate
world.
And so, yeah, as far as goalsgo, like I said, those income
goals for me right now are nexton the radar and then, I don't
know, we'll take it from there.
Speaker 3 (29:54):
That's awesome.
I feel like one of the thingsthat we always hear guests ask
themselves and other people is,at that point, if they want to
expand to a team, it's do youwant to do your thing, aka
copywriting, or do you want tomanage your team?
Who does the copywriting?
Because it's a monumental jobshift.
If you start an agency or youstart, let's say, a team for
(30:14):
lack of a better word thenyou're just managing that and
you're pushing everything, butyou're not so much doing the
thing anymore.
So I guess we'll see.
Speaker 4 (30:22):
Yeah, and, and I will say, you know, right out of
college and it was like yourcareer path was well, if you
don't take that manager role,you're that's not successful.
You know, and I was a managerand I don't know at the time it
it didn't, it didn't check allthe boxes for me in terms of
(30:42):
fulfillment.
So, yeah, I, I think it's.
It ebbs and flows really forpeople's career path.
So, love it, love it.
Speaker 3 (30:51):
Nate.
I think she's ready, I thinkit's time.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
I think you're right, here we go.
Speaker 3 (31:19):
Holly looks concerned .
All right, holly, here's what'shappening.
All right, here we'll see whathappens.
Anyways, here we go.
What separates top performingentrepreneurs from the?
Speaker 4 (31:23):
rest of the crowd.
All right, I don't want this tobe taken out of context.
But not waiting for permission,just going for it and taking
action.
Speaker 2 (31:38):
Holy cow.
Speaker 4 (31:39):
Okay, that was good, that was the mic drop moment,
I'm like did I get it wrong?
Speaker 2 (31:44):
No, there's no wrong answer, but that's one that
we've not heard yet, and Ireally really like that one.
But okay, okay, reset.
Speaker 3 (31:51):
Here we go.
I'm fighting to not sayanything.
I'm fighting Go ahead.
Speaker 2 (31:59):
My bad, bro.
Yeah, that was my fault.
Okay, fault, okay, here we go.
Speaker 4 (32:01):
number two what's a daily habit that's contributed
to your success.
I still use a pen and paperplanner.
It looks like this nice I havetried all the electronic things,
this buddy here.
If I don't have my top fiveto-dos for the day, my day is
(32:22):
not done.
So if that means I'm down hereat night working on it, those
next, those five to-dos,absolutely must be done in order
to move forward.
So 100% my daily planner.
Speaker 3 (32:41):
I am so excited we call them MINS.
Right, your Most Important NextSteps.
And same thing three to fivethings every day that move the
needle forward, that actuallyexpand your business, create
revenue, whatever you want tosay.
So I love that.
That is so good.
Again, all the super successfulpeople we talk to do just that.
And I like the old school vibeI just sitting here with sticky
(33:03):
notes and a pen.
So I agreed, agreed.
Anyways, I digress.
What is a piece of advice thatyou'd give to yourself if you
were starting again?
Speaker 4 (33:13):
Oh, starting again, I would tell myself and this is
going to be simple, it's goingto be okay, you're fine, you're
going to be okay.
That's not really advice, but Ithink just kind of that,
because I'm a very anxious,energetic person and sometimes
(33:33):
it's just that it's going to beokay.
You know, just do the things,do the hard things, get out of
your comfort zone.
And, as you, the more you getout of your comfort zone, the
bigger your your comfort bubbleis.
That was super cheesy, by theway, but it really does it.
It helps.
Speaker 2 (33:55):
So again, so good.
Cola, we talk about this allthe time.
Growth lives outside of thatcomfort zone.
Being able to expand and beingable to grow that bubble
Everybody listening.
Play all this stuff over again.
What is your favorite?
Speaker 3 (34:10):
Tally.
For how many times Nate saysdial the episode back?
We're racking them up.
Speaker 2 (34:14):
That's it.
That's it.
What is your favorite businessbook?
Speaker 4 (34:21):
Oh, my favorite business book, oh man, um,
that's tough Actually.
You know what?
Hold on, I think it was sittinghere.
Do I still have it?
Actually, you know what?
Hold on, I think it was sittinghere.
Do I still have it?
No, I don't.
But can I tell you I am goingto pull this one up because it's
(34:44):
here.
I still and I'm not being paidby these people but this one
right here, this copywriting fordummies, I'm blurred.
It's blurred.
This thing, it sits right on mydesk.
It's the, you know, those fourdummies books.
This one, I mean, it is yearsold and things change,
(35:06):
especially in marketing, likeyou sneeze, and it's not
relevant anymore, you know, andso.
But there is stuff in here thatis just like, yeah, it's that
back to basics, that once againshiny things, kind of just, oh,
no, you know what, yeah, I needto come back to this and let me
start again.
Let me start back to the basics, and so you know what?
(35:30):
I didn't think this was myfavorite, but the fact that it
sits on my desk and I look,there's the bookmark.
I'm going to have to give kudosto writing copy for dummies.
Speaker 3 (35:39):
So love it, absolutely love that.
What is your favorite part ofowning your business?
Speaker 4 (35:48):
Um, definitely the.
I mean the work-life balance,the flexibility, sometimes the
work-life, sometimes work-lifebalance does get out a little.
It gets out of whack but itdoes, it teeters, but definitely
the and the fact that all thehard work that I'm doing is, yes
(36:12):
, I'm helping other companiesand I do.
I love that part of it.
I always thank my clients,Thank you for allowing me to be
part of your business.
But all this hard work I'mdoing, it's for me, it's not for
pleasing a C-suite exec.
It's for me.
So that's definitely rewarding.
Speaker 2 (36:31):
I love it.
What is something new thatyou've implemented that's helped
drive your success?
Speaker 4 (36:39):
new that you've implemented that's helped drive
your success Something new thatI've implemented, honestly, and
I write for other clients, butI've recently started
implementing my own contentstrategy.
Once again, it takes time itreally does so.
It's not necessarily a skillthat's new to me, but when
you're writing for yourself andit's your name on there, it's so
.
It's not necessarily a skillthat's new to me, but when
you're writing for yourself andit's your name on there and
(37:00):
they're like it's, it's a wholenew level of okay.
So implementing a content andblog strategy on my own site is
something that I actuallystarted in last month, so still
a work in progress.
Speaker 3 (37:17):
Love it.
That's really good.
There is so much to recap here.
I love recapping and I have anabsolute full sticky notes, so
I'm gonna try to do my best tohit the big stuff that I think
is most important.
One your journey, which isreally cool, starting out in HR,
kind of getting your footing,going into sales and then
finding that passion for likebranding, messaging audience and
(37:37):
going into sales and thenfinding that passion for like
branding, messaging audience andgoing into the freeware
freelance world and just kind oftaking the step doing it.
And then here we are, um, andthen I love that we dove into
mindset, we dove into the hobbyverse business, the fundamentals
, um, how to track, kind of somebasics on copy and just kind of
outreach.
There's so much good stuff wetalked about, so, anyways, two
(37:59):
final things for you.
One, any final advice?
And two where can people findyou or contact you?
Speaker 4 (38:05):
Yeah.
So, final advice, I feel like Ilike to just give general,
because there's so manydifferent businesses out there
and you know people are all inall different parts of their
journeys.
But I mean, I I may not, maybenot seem it right now, but it
will be okay.
Um, and to have the confidencein yourself, I know when I
(38:30):
launched my site and now my, Ihad been in sales.
I have cold called people, Ihave been in like whatever.
But when it's you that I havenever been that terrified.
I'm like, oh my God, I'm goingto launch it, I'm going to.
Oh my God, oh my God.
And then I did it and it waslike I did it and so you can do
it.
I know that's so cheesy and itshould be on a coffee mug, but
(38:53):
like you can do it and it willbe okay.
So, and to contact me, I'llgive you, or my site is probably
the easiest way, which ishollycybert, that's S-E-Y B as
in boy E-R-T, copycom.
Speaker 2 (39:15):
Holly, this has been amazing.
Thank you so much for comingthrough for Forest on Fire.
This has been an honor, apleasure and a privilege.
Our house is your house.
I'm excited to be able to haveyou back in the next couple of
months to be able to hear someof those next action items, the
next steps that you've taken.
So again, we just want to saytruly appreciate you coming
through.
For those that are listening,please get home safely.
Make sure that you tune in tothe next episode of Forged in
(39:38):
Fire.
You guys, we'll talk soon.
Peace.
Speaker 1 (39:43):
Thanks for tuning in to another episode of Forged in
Fire.
If you enjoyed today's raw,unfiltered stories, don't forget
to like, subscribe and leave usa review.
Your feedback helps us bringmore real-world insights to
entrepreneurs like you.
Be sure to join us next timefor even more lessons, struggles
(40:06):
and breakthroughs on the roadto success.
Keep forging ahead.
Forget what you've heard.
Forged in Fire is where realentrepreneurs come to share the
untold truths of success thelate nights, the crushing
setbacks, the moments thatchange everything.
No fluff, just fire, ready tostep into the heat and unlock
(00:24):
what it really takes to build abusiness.
This is where legends are made.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Welcome back everybody to another exciting
episode of Forged in Fire.
I am your co-host, nateFarmer-Eden.
Allow me to introduce mycounterpart, cole.
How we doing brother, come onstage.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
Doing good man.
How are you doing today?
Speaker 2 (00:47):
I'm doing good.
I'm doing good, man.
The family was sick for likethe last, I don't know.
It feels like month, but I'mfinally starting to come out of
it.
So I think I'm getting well.
I think so.
It feels that way.
How about you?
Speaker 3 (01:09):
man.
What's going on?
That's awesome.
We're doing good over here.
Today's one of those days where, like, wake up, sun's shining,
everything's good.
Look at my phone.
Everything starts burning tothe ground and we're doing
better.
Our day's slowly turning around, but you know, there's always
those good days.
So it is what it is, but I'mexcited to be here.
I'm excited for this guest.
There's a lot to go into.
This is one of my favoritetopics, so it's going to get
interesting.
But a few housekeeping thingsfirst, right, as we know.
(01:30):
So first leave us rating reviewHelps us grow, helps us educate
more people, so that would beawesome.
Second, please subscribe so youcan get the next episode and
the one after that.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
And, lastly, sit back , relax, enjoy the show and the
one after that, and, lastly, sitback, relax, enjoy the show.
Here we go.
It's going to be amazing.
Today we are joined by Holly.
Holly is a copywriting expertand runs her own business doing
so.
So, without further ado, holly,come on stage.
How are we doing?
Speaker 4 (01:57):
Hey guys, how are you ?
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Doing awesome.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
So please tell us a little bitabout yourself.
What got you here?
What brought you here?
Speaker 4 (02:05):
Absolutely so.
My name is Holly Seibert and Iam the owner founder of Holly
Seibert Copywriting, so I'vebeen in marketing for, oh gosh,
over a decade.
I was a marketing major incollege, kind of took a dotted
line to get where I am now,started my career in human
resources and talent acquisitionand let me tell you, though you
(02:30):
want to learn business acumen,then HR is really the way to go,
but it was always in marketingin some way, whether that was
managing an employer brand oroverseeing know, overseeing copy
content and social related tocareers eventually made my way
into customer success or took onmore of a sales role, but once
(02:54):
again, that copy marketingportion was always there, and
then, you know, I mean anyone ina W2 position.
It's kind of like there has tobe something more right.
I went out on my own last year.
I always love the messagingconcept of marketing or
(03:15):
copywriting and getting thatbranding and connecting brands
with their target audience.
I just always loved it.
Connecting brands with theirtarget audience.
I just always loved it.
And so went out on my own as afreelancer and it's been fun.
I have worked on projects thatI don't think I would not have
had the opportunity to do had Istill been in a corporate role,
(03:39):
and so, yeah, it's been amazing.
Speaker 3 (03:43):
That is awesome.
I want to dive into that a lotmore.
So you mentioned you've alwaysbeen in marketing.
It sounds like you've just hada drive for it, something you
liked.
Is there something specificallyabout it that draws you in, or
is it just kind of like aninnate thing that you just are
drawn to it?
Like, for instance, I just lovereal estate.
I couldn't really tell you whyI love apartment buildings.
It's kind of a weird thing, butI just do so.
(04:05):
Do you have the same kind ofthing, or is there something
specific about it?
Speaker 4 (04:08):
I think, you know, that's so funny because I think
back to, like I mean, I was incollege a long time ago.
But you know, even in classeslike a retail class, you know
that the psychology behind itand why stores set up the way
they do, when you look at an ad,why is it said?
It's it's like the psychologyof it and getting that
(04:31):
connection, you know, from acompany to the audience and
getting them to take that action, and so I think that that's
just like the tip of the iceberg, but kind of like you said, you
know, you're just like there'sjust something about it that's
like oh yeah, you want to, youwant to talk about that.
Speaker 3 (04:48):
So it's funny because one of the things that I
noticed that you have and I juststarted putting it together as
we're doing this is a lot of ourguests that are successful
entrepreneurs just ask that why?
It's just they have this thingthat they like, whatever it is,
and then they just can't stopasking why and it eventually
turns into something big andsuccessful.
So I like that you do that, andI'm sure Nate can agree.
It's something we always see.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
Thousand percent, and I guess I'm the same way like
that especially.
We're thinking of what you weredoing back then and then going
through college and all that, somaking that actual transition
into running your ownsolopreneur business.
What kind of struggles andtrials and tribulations did you
go through?
Speaker 4 (05:28):
take us through some of that journey yeah, I mean, um
, well, I, I was, I was not thehappiest human, um, and I don't
wanna, I don't wanna bad mouth,you know any?
Any organization?
I, I, I wasn't happy and it was, was that constant like, come
on, what, what is it?
What's missing here?
(05:48):
But so much is mindset, gettingout of that employee mindset,
because then you hear, oh well,well, your health insurance, oh
well, they contribute to your401k and it's like, but you can
still contribute to the 401k asa, as a business owner, as a
freelancer, it's that mindsetthat you know you're not just
(06:11):
going to sit there, you know anddo your work and go home at
four or five whenever it's likeI want to, I want to work hard
and I want to do it for me.
And getting out of that likethis is now a business, because,
as a freelancer and I think anysolopreneur kind of listening
to it is that, yeah, it's not ahobby to me, it's a business,
(06:34):
even though right now it is justme.
And I think any solopreneur orfreelancer don't think of it as
a hobby.
It's a business even though itis just you.
You can be a department of one,of all departments and it's
just you.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
It's so good.
Let me ask a follow-up, becausethis is so good, so could you
hit on something that I just gotto dive into?
So, going from that exactmindset shift of W2, they'll
take care of you.
They've got your back to now.
It's just you wearing all thehats and you.
So what was that like for you?
Like all of a sudden now havingto make sure that you're
tracking your own KPIs.
(07:12):
You're now making sure thatyou're doing all the finance,
the budgeting, the marketing.
How did that all go?
Speaker 4 (07:17):
Yeah, I mean, I think , and I think, because of my
kind of like, I said the dottedline in my career that you know,
oh, I was familiar with allthese corporate yes, corporate
departments.
But kind of taking that downand you know, of course, you
know, joining those freelancingnetworks and their sites out
there and kind of having thatcommunities you know people to
(07:40):
lean on, ask questions that havebeen there is absolutely vital.
I, I don't think I could havebeen where I am today alone, um,
that you absolutely need thatcommunity, um, and so, yeah, you
know that and I also, you know,didn't mention, is that I was
actually laid off twice, um,different organizations,
(08:02):
different reasons.
One was a bankruptcy entireorganization was let down,
entire organization was let down.
The other one was anacquisition Our entire team was
let go, they took it offshore,and so I'm like nowhere is safe,
you're not going to sit thereall cozy in your corporate job.
I was just like you know what,forget this, I'm doing it myself
(08:22):
.
So, yeah, and I think, havingthat mindset that like no,
nowhere is safe, if your job isgoing to get eliminated, it's
going to get eliminated, and sohaving that control in a way to
a point and being on my own,that's really, I mean, what I
needed.
It's all mindset really.
It was, it was.
(08:42):
It's all mindset really.
I love that.
Speaker 3 (08:46):
We harp on mindset all the time and I just think
it's like the, I would say,debatably the most important
thing in business just allaround, because if you don't
have the right mindset it'sgoing to be so incredibly
difficult to succeed.
And there's a couple of thingsI just want to go back to that
you brought up and I think it'shuge to touch on, like the
employee mindset and not just asan employee.
That's fine, that's all welland good, but it's just the fact
(09:07):
that, like in school, in ourwhole education system, we're
trained to follow.
We're not trained to lead.
It's handed an assignment, doit this way, it's just given.
And so trying to break out asan entrepreneur and trying to
like learn how to lead and howto do things differently and not
just follow rules but actuallyexpand, is so difficult.
So I love that you mentionedthat, um, and also like the
(09:27):
hobby versus business, I think,like you said, to have that
control and to have the piecesyou need to treat it like a
business.
It's a money generating machine.
It's not just like let's gopaint on the side and do
whatever in our free time, likewe're taking this seriously.
So that's so big um.
There's so much more I coulddive into there, but I'm going
to digress.
I want to go into some copystuff because I'm just way too
(09:49):
excited.
So can you give more?
Just give us some fundamentals,I guess, on copy.
What are things that ifsomebody knew nothing when
they're listening to this andthey're like my messaging sucks,
I'm getting nothing, where doyou start?
Speaker 4 (10:04):
Sure.
So I think a lot of people hearcopywriting and they think of
like the legal, like copywritingwith an R.
This is copywriting, likeactually writing, and it's
really an art and a science.
I think of it as both.
It's like a hybrid, but it'sreally writing that persuades,
(10:27):
influences.
You want that audience, thatperson reading it, to take an
action.
Yes, people think of buying aproduct, absolutely, but maybe
that's just to sign up for yournewsletter, Maybe it's to listen
and subscribe to a podcast,maybe you're a company and you
have employees and you need topitch them on a new program that
(10:49):
you're rolling out.
You're still, you need to getthem on board and you need to
persuade them.
That's copywriting.
And so, in a nutshell, it isreally the art and science of
writing that persuades orinfluences.
And any business needscopywriting.
I mean your website that's thebiggie.
(11:09):
Emails, social media I knowthat that's the big one.
Ads, digital ads or print adsIf you're a brick and mortar and
you need to, you know, get yourmessage out.
You know.
Print ads oh my gosh.
Sales pages, landing pagesthose are a huge one.
The list goes on and on.
Speaker 3 (11:32):
We have a quick interruption question.
So would it be fair to say that, like, as you improve on your
copy, let's say your writtencopy, your, like, your speech
would also kind of improve withit?
Or those completely separate?
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (11:46):
your speech, um, I mean I, I guess in a way, um, I
will say with copy, I meanespecially, I think in like,
like I take an ad, for example,a headline might not always be,
you know, grammatically correct,but it's meant to grab your
attention.
Um, but as far as like yourspeech, as in, just to confirm
(12:10):
you, you mean like, basically,how we're communicating.
Speaker 3 (12:14):
Yeah, and I just mean like okay if somebody can write
excellent copy, let's just saysomeone starts from zero and
they slowly improve.
When they're talking to, let'ssay, a client or a potential
client, are they going to bebetter articulated because
they've now had practice writingit consistently, or maybe not.
And it's completely unrelatedto something I'm curious of.
Speaker 4 (12:32):
I don't know if I can 100% or if I have the right
answer to that.
I guess it would depend.
There's a lot.
I feel like there's a lot offactors there that I'm thinking
of because there's differenttypes of writing.
Right, you have copy we'repersuading, we're influencing.
And then you have like a blogpost.
To me, it's content Is iteducating, Is it entertaining?
And then you have like a blogpost To me, it's content Is it
educating, Is it entertaining?
Are we telling a story?
Are we building a brand?
(12:52):
It's written for a differentpurpose, if that makes sense.
Speaker 3 (12:57):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
Yeah, it makes sense.
So many questions, but you andI we talked about this months
ago, but I want the world toknow thoughts on this.
Where do we stand with copyversus AI right now?
Because there's so manydifferent tools that folks have
been utilizing with, like chat,GPT and all these other
instruments that are just likeyou know what.
(13:20):
We'll just throw it on in hereand then we're just going to
throw it out to the world and Idon't even have to think about
it for blogs and whatever else.
Where do you stand from yourperspective on folks utilizing
that?
Speaker 4 (13:30):
Yeah, I mean AI.
I mean it's not going away,right?
Is it absolutely?
Is it a useful tool whenrunning a business?
Yes, I use it for likescheduling.
I use it for you know, I haveall this stuff I have to do.
Can you write me a schedule?
Or, if I'm working in a newindustry for research,
(13:52):
absolutely, it can be very, veryhelpful.
When it comes to copy, I usethis example and I actually just
got an alert today on my phonefrom LinkedIn that copywriting
job openings have increased 22%.
That was as of this morning.
That's what LinkedIn told meand honestly, I've been seeing
(14:14):
that for the past few weeks, andthe reason that I bring this up
is that I think years ago say Idon't know two years ago, when
really AI was becomingmainstream, is that companies
like you said oh, we can get ridof our teams and use this robot
and it'll be great.
(14:35):
And I think people arerealizing that that's not the
case.
I mean AI, it's a machine.
You put stuff in, it gets stuffout.
It's not a human.
It doesn't understand thecreativity, the emotional
connections of your audience,and so it really can't hit that
(14:58):
psychology piece that I wasbringing up because it's a
machine.
Now is it great if you're stuckon a sentence like where am I
going to go with this as a tool?
To go with this as a tool,absolutely, but to completely
replace humans?
No, I really don't see that,and I brought up the job opening
thing because I really thinkcompanies are realizing that,
(15:20):
that they're like we have to, weneed these people back and so,
yeah, that is my answer on AI.
Speaker 3 (15:29):
I love it and I think it's good because it's funny,
because you know, a year, twoyears again, whatever the
timeline is, I think there's alot of fear surrounding this in
many different industries.
Is AI going to demolish thisindustry, that industry?
What's going to happen?
And I think a lot of peoplepush for that and there's good,
bad ugly to it, you know foragainst it, whatever it may be.
(15:50):
But I think it's good to knowthat you're just like you're
saying there's always going tobe a place for the human element
and there's always going to bethat piece to come in.
And, like you said, it's justhard to really I don't know for
a machine to do it, so it'sinteresting.
Speaking of I'm curious of thenitty gritty Again.
I just like thinking of thenitty gritty again.
I just like thinking of theperson that's listening to this
(16:10):
going like, okay, I need copy.
Should I hire an expert?
Should I try doing it myself?
If I try doing it myself, whatare some things I should pay
attention to?
Can you speak to that a littlebit?
Speaker 4 (16:19):
Yeah, absolutely, and yeah, I do agree.
You know I feel likecopywriting and this is
absolutely no I.
Everyone all has theirexpertise, is it's like?
I feel like sometimes it's thelast thing that people think of.
You know, you create these likegraphic designs always seem
like the cool kids, right?
You know they're like creatingthese super sexy websites, but
(16:40):
if your messaging isn't on point, people aren't going to stay on
your site, and so they really.
I think it is something thatdoes need to focus, and if
you're not ready to invest in acopywriter, a professional
copywriter, that's fine, youknow, if you want to go at it
yourself.
I would say three maintakeaways.
Is one focus on whatever youare offering a service or a you
(17:06):
know a product, focusing on thebenefits of that rather than a
feature.
I'll give a really bad exampleof like I don't know a pillow.
Say, your pillow is stuffedwith I don't know organic bamboo
.
Okay, cool, what does that mean?
What's in it for me?
What's in it for your audience?
Does that mean they get areally great night's sleep?
(17:27):
Does that mean they don't havepain in the morning?
I'm not a pillow expert, butfocusing on the benefit of that
service and product, I would saythat's the number one.
Number two is keep it clear,keep it casual.
Maybe your tone is casual, butI think a lot of times,
(17:50):
depending on the industry,people get super complex and
they're using this fancy jargonbecause they want to sound
credible and they want to soundlike experts.
But it can really take awayfrom your point and your
audience is sitting there goingwhat, what are they?
Oh, okay, that's what they'retrying to say.
So to me, concise and clearwords is always the best thing.
(18:14):
And then I would say numberthree is always have that call
to action.
What are you trying to getthese folks to do?
Do you want them to buy theproduct?
Do you want them to subscribe,follow like it, share it?
Have a really clear and concisecall to action.
I would say those three tips,kind of to get started.
(18:36):
And there's a ton of resourcesout there.
And I would say too you know,if you do this as a solopreneur
or you know a business owner andyou're like I'm just not sure
if this is right, yeah, maybethat's something you look into.
You know is is hiring aprofessional, um, or a lot of
times I know a lot ofsolopreneurs.
(18:58):
I'll use an example like Idon't know coaches.
There's a lot of reallysuccessful coaches out there,
but a lot of times it's justthem, um, and it's they kind of
hesitate to hire a professionalbecause it's well, no, it's me,
this is my brand.
No one can say it like I cansay it.
I will tell you that a goodcopywriter is going to, they're
(19:19):
going to nail that brand voiceand that tone and you're not
even going to like, it's goingto sound like you.
A professional copywriter, agood one, will be able to do
that.
So hopefully that was that wasa lot.
Hopefully someone got somethingout of that.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
So this was amazing so far.
Oh, my goodness, anybody that'slistening.
That was a mic drop moment.
Make sure that you pause,rewind, play this whole thing
back to this point.
So far, two questions, and theykind of can flow into each
other.
But right now, what is yourtarget avatar look like, in
terms of who it is that youwould like to work with?
And then two coming fromsomebody that's worlds better
(19:59):
than I am when it comes to thiscopywriting and all of that.
What is it that you're doing tobe able to attract any type of
new business?
Speaker 4 (20:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:07):
Wait, I want to add on a three to that.
How did you decide on youravatar?
New business.
Speaker 4 (20:12):
Yeah, wait, I want to add on a three to that.
How did you decide on youravatar?
So I would say that you hearthis a lot too is people will
define a niche and they willkind of silo themselves in a
particular niche.
I like variety, and so, as faras industry wise, you know I'm
(20:36):
very.
I have worked in a variety ofindustries, from, I mean, pet
care to the events industry,saas, tech.
But what I will say is, as faras the size of the company, I
really love that like small tomedium size, that where they're
like I need, I need help, youknow what can I do?
(20:57):
Um, and so to me it's about the, the person or the size of the
company, not so much theindustry, but the, the
organizations that are reallyready to take it to the next
level.
Or they're like yeah, you know,I do need to invest to really
redefine my brand messaging,connect with the audience, do
(21:19):
all the things the tone guideand the brand voice that really
value that.
And they're ready for thatBecause, like I said, not
everyone's going to be ready fora copywriter, and so, yeah, I
would say like the small andmedium sized business that's, or
even a solopreneur that is kindof ready to take it to that
next level.
Oh my God, what was the secondquestion?
Speaker 2 (21:43):
So it all kind of blends together.
But the other question or Iguess part two to that was what
are you doing to be able tomarket?
That's right.
Speaker 4 (21:53):
So currently, right now, I do cold pitch.
It's tedious, but it works.
Speaker 3 (22:01):
It's the direct line to work.
Speaker 4 (22:02):
Dive into that more.
What was that?
Speaker 3 (22:05):
Dive into that more, give me more details.
What exactly does that looklike?
Speaker 4 (22:08):
So I will kind of you know one.
I never just send out thoseblanket templates that are like
hi, I'm a copywriter, you havework, let me help you.
No one wants to read that.
It's really about findingsomeone that I think would be
you know.
Hey, you know, let me reach outto this person and always try
(22:30):
to find the good email, a goodemail to send, not the you know,
generic ones, but sometimesthat's what you're, what you're
given.
Um, always kind of making itknown that I've looked at their
stuff.
Um it, I'm a real person, I amnot a bot.
Um, and then I always want togive them an idea.
Um, and then I always want togive them an idea.
(22:54):
You know, hey, saul, you haven'tupdated your blog posts in you
know a year.
Uh, did you know a blog postcan help with SEO, you know?
And just kind of providing somekind of value, um, and then, uh
, hey, want to connect on a call.
Keep it, keep it brief, keep itfriendly.
Everyone's time is valuable.
But, yeah, cold pitching issomething that I do, still do.
(23:17):
I have gotten clients from it.
I also do some inbound as well.
I have a blog on my siteNetworking, always love to
connect on coffee chats, even ifit's not going to be about work
.
There are people that I connectwith every month and it's
almost just like a you knowadding to my community and maybe
(23:39):
one day they'll have work.
Maybe they won't, um.
So yeah, that's kind of the tworight now, because it's always
like I'm writing for otherpeople and I never have time to
write for myself.
But those are kind of the twomain areas that I'm writing for
other people and I never havetime to write for myself.
But those are kind of the twomain areas that I'm focusing on.
Speaker 3 (23:53):
That's awesome.
I I've been diving so deep intocold outreach recently and I
it's.
It's just fascinating to me andI like that.
You said, um, these threethings that I've keep hearing
over and over again, which ispersonalizing the message,
making them aware that you'repaying attention to them and
they're not just a Joe Schmo,like you said, to giving value,
(24:13):
like you said, having an ideahere's something to add on value
, just free off the bat.
And then, obviously, the callto action is critical.
So I just love that you broughtthat up.
Speaker 4 (24:24):
And I will add I mean I've worked on sales teams
before, even when I was arecruiter.
I mean it was sales and it's noone likes that salesy or a lot
of the companies I'm reachingout to.
They don't want to be, theydon't want to know they're being
pitched.
And it took a lot to kind ofpull back on that that salesy
approach and just being like,hey, they're dropping in here's
(24:46):
a gift, you know, and on my way,drop it in, here's a gift, you
know, and on my way.
So yeah, kind of finding thatbalance was definitely a
challenge for me.
Speaker 3 (24:57):
That's awesome.
So I want to kind of go backinto a different direction,
which is when it comes to yourbusiness side.
How are you tracking things orwhat works for you?
Meaning like, how do you trackclients, how do you track
numbers, how do you trackeverything you do?
Speaker 4 (25:09):
Yeah, so I try to.
I was falling into the trapwhen I first started of getting
distracted.
There are so many shiny thingsout there, especially for new
business owners, and a lot of itcan take away from you taking
action on actually, you know,doing revenue generating
activities.
(25:30):
So for a while I actuallyworked on a, on a Google sheet,
to track my leads.
Now that was not productive forme at all Cause I was used to a
CRM or an ATS and I was likethis is not going to work.
I need to be in a CRM.
(25:50):
So I actually use there's a,there's Google it.
There's plenty of free versionsout there.
There there are ones.
When I was in recruiting, I knewof Zoho recruit.
They also have a CRM.
I know HubSpot has a CRM.
They have a lot of resources,for I wanted to be able to
(26:11):
accept online payments.
So that was the thing Keeptrack of leads, have my business
email.
I had that set up, had mywebsite they're from the same
provider and then payments.
I personally use Wave Financial.
In my copywriting group.
It was recommended to me and Iwas like well, if it's good
enough for all you wonderfulpeople, it's good enough for me
(26:35):
and that right now I'm okay, I'mgood.
Do I want to add all the funand shiny things I do?
But to me it's so important tonot get distracted and focus on,
like you know, actually drivingbusiness and driving results.
So those are kind of the threelike main tools that I use.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
I love this so much.
Oh my gosh, this is somethingthat we talk about consistently
Mints and, of course, thingsthat are driving and moving the
needle forward.
So often, just like you put, weget that shiny object syndrome
where we stop and we we're likepause in the moment and we all
this busy work, but is itactually productive at the end
(27:22):
of the day?
If it's not moving the needleforward, you're wasting time.
So I we agree a thousandpercent and a lot of it was.
Speaker 4 (27:29):
I had heard about this copywriter.
You know it was on a podcastand she was easily making over
six figures and she had Googledocs and a Gmail and that was it
.
And I was like, oh my gosh, andI I always kind of that kind of
brings me back home Like youdon't need the all the fancy
things.
(27:49):
You know you need to takeaction, Like thinking and
dreaming can only get you so far, but it's, what can I do to
move forward?
And, like you said, move theneedle.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
On that same topic.
Before we dive into, we have aspecial gift for you.
But before we get there, onelast question on this topic.
So where do you see yourself inthe next let's just call it one
to three to five years what'syour future outlook?
How do you want the company toexpand?
If you want it to expand?
Speaker 4 (28:21):
Talk to us a little bit about that.
Yeah, I would.
As I said, right now I am afreelancer, so for all you
solopreneurs listening,listening out there, that's cool
to be a department of one.
For now I I would like to getto six figures.
That is my goal for this year.
Replacing my full-time incomewas number one.
So that did that kind of thatnext one, you know, moving into
(28:45):
that next kind of income levelas far as usually, as far as a
copywriter, I don't know, Idon't know if that is for me.
I definitely don't want to goback to being an employee, I can
(29:09):
tell you that, but right now Ithink a lot of my goals are
income-based.
I also want to point out that Idon't necessarily work a
full-time schedule every week.
I try.
I do have two elementary-agedkids at home, so work-life
balance is important to me andenjoying outside and everything.
(29:31):
So, yeah, I'm working about a30-hour week right now, and that
was something that I was neverable to do in the corporate
world.
And so, yeah, as far as goalsgo, like I said, those income
goals for me right now are nexton the radar and then, I don't
know, we'll take it from there.
Speaker 3 (29:54):
That's awesome.
I feel like one of the thingsthat we always hear guests ask
themselves and other people is,at that point, if they want to
expand to a team, it's do youwant to do your thing, aka
copywriting, or do you want tomanage your team?
Who does the copywriting?
Because it's a monumental jobshift.
If you start an agency or youstart, let's say, a team for
(30:14):
lack of a better word thenyou're just managing that and
you're pushing everything, butyou're not so much doing the
thing anymore.
So I guess we'll see.
Speaker 4 (30:22):
Yeah, and, and I will say, you know, right out of
college and it was like yourcareer path was well, if you
don't take that manager role,you're that's not successful.
You know, and I was a managerand I don't know at the time it
it didn't, it didn't check allthe boxes for me in terms of
(30:42):
fulfillment.
So, yeah, I, I think it's.
It ebbs and flows really forpeople's career path.
So, love it, love it.
Speaker 3 (30:51):
Nate.
I think she's ready, I thinkit's time.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
I think you're right, here we go.
Speaker 3 (31:19):
Holly looks concerned .
All right, holly, here's what'shappening.
All right, here we'll see whathappens.
Anyways, here we go.
What separates top performingentrepreneurs from the?
Speaker 4 (31:23):
rest of the crowd.
All right, I don't want this tobe taken out of context.
But not waiting for permission,just going for it and taking
action.
Speaker 2 (31:38):
Holy cow.
Speaker 4 (31:39):
Okay, that was good, that was the mic drop moment,
I'm like did I get it wrong?
Speaker 2 (31:44):
No, there's no wrong answer, but that's one that
we've not heard yet, and Ireally really like that one.
But okay, okay, reset.
Speaker 3 (31:51):
Here we go.
I'm fighting to not sayanything.
I'm fighting Go ahead.
Speaker 2 (31:59):
My bad, bro.
Yeah, that was my fault.
Okay, fault, okay, here we go.
Speaker 4 (32:01):
number two what's a daily habit that's contributed
to your success.
I still use a pen and paperplanner.
It looks like this nice I havetried all the electronic things,
this buddy here.
If I don't have my top fiveto-dos for the day, my day is
(32:22):
not done.
So if that means I'm down hereat night working on it, those
next, those five to-dos,absolutely must be done in order
to move forward.
So 100% my daily planner.
Speaker 3 (32:41):
I am so excited we call them MINS.
Right, your Most Important NextSteps.
And same thing three to fivethings every day that move the
needle forward, that actuallyexpand your business, create
revenue, whatever you want tosay.
So I love that.
That is so good.
Again, all the super successfulpeople we talk to do just that.
And I like the old school vibeI just sitting here with sticky
(33:03):
notes and a pen.
So I agreed, agreed.
Anyways, I digress.
What is a piece of advice thatyou'd give to yourself if you
were starting again?
Speaker 4 (33:13):
Oh, starting again, I would tell myself and this is
going to be simple, it's goingto be okay, you're fine, you're
going to be okay.
That's not really advice, but Ithink just kind of that,
because I'm a very anxious,energetic person and sometimes
(33:33):
it's just that it's going to beokay.
You know, just do the things,do the hard things, get out of
your comfort zone.
And, as you, the more you getout of your comfort zone, the
bigger your your comfort bubbleis.
That was super cheesy, by theway, but it really does it.
It helps.
Speaker 2 (33:55):
So again, so good.
Cola, we talk about this allthe time.
Growth lives outside of thatcomfort zone.
Being able to expand and beingable to grow that bubble
Everybody listening.
Play all this stuff over again.
What is your favorite?
Speaker 3 (34:10):
Tally.
For how many times Nate saysdial the episode back?
We're racking them up.
Speaker 2 (34:14):
That's it.
That's it.
What is your favorite businessbook?
Speaker 4 (34:21):
Oh, my favorite business book, oh man, um,
that's tough Actually.
You know what?
Hold on, I think it was sittinghere.
Do I still have it?
Actually, you know what?
Hold on, I think it was sittinghere.
Do I still have it?
No, I don't.
But can I tell you I am goingto pull this one up because it's
(34:44):
here.
I still and I'm not being paidby these people but this one
right here, this copywriting fordummies, I'm blurred.
It's blurred.
This thing, it sits right on mydesk.
It's the, you know, those fourdummies books.
This one, I mean, it is yearsold and things change,
(35:06):
especially in marketing, likeyou sneeze, and it's not
relevant anymore, you know, andso.
But there is stuff in here thatis just like, yeah, it's that
back to basics, that once againshiny things, kind of just, oh,
no, you know what, yeah, I needto come back to this and let me
start again.
Let me start back to the basics, and so you know what?
(35:30):
I didn't think this was myfavorite, but the fact that it
sits on my desk and I look,there's the bookmark.
I'm going to have to give kudosto writing copy for dummies.
Speaker 3 (35:39):
So love it, absolutely love that.
What is your favorite part ofowning your business?
Speaker 4 (35:48):
Um, definitely the.
I mean the work-life balance,the flexibility, sometimes the
work-life, sometimes work-lifebalance does get out a little.
It gets out of whack but itdoes, it teeters, but definitely
the and the fact that all thehard work that I'm doing is, yes
(36:12):
, I'm helping other companiesand I do.
I love that part of it.
I always thank my clients,Thank you for allowing me to be
part of your business.
But all this hard work I'mdoing, it's for me, it's not for
pleasing a C-suite exec.
It's for me.
So that's definitely rewarding.
Speaker 2 (36:31):
I love it.
What is something new thatyou've implemented that's helped
drive your success?
Speaker 4 (36:39):
new that you've implemented that's helped drive
your success Something new thatI've implemented, honestly, and
I write for other clients, butI've recently started
implementing my own contentstrategy.
Once again, it takes time itreally does so.
It's not necessarily a skillthat's new to me, but when
you're writing for yourself andit's your name on there, it's so
.
It's not necessarily a skillthat's new to me, but when
you're writing for yourself andit's your name on there and
(37:00):
they're like it's, it's a wholenew level of okay.
So implementing a content andblog strategy on my own site is
something that I actuallystarted in last month, so still
a work in progress.
Speaker 3 (37:17):
Love it.
That's really good.
There is so much to recap here.
I love recapping and I have anabsolute full sticky notes, so
I'm gonna try to do my best tohit the big stuff that I think
is most important.
One your journey, which isreally cool, starting out in HR,
kind of getting your footing,going into sales and then
finding that passion for likebranding, messaging audience and
(37:37):
going into sales and thenfinding that passion for like
branding, messaging audience andgoing into the freeware
freelance world and just kind oftaking the step doing it.
And then here we are, um, andthen I love that we dove into
mindset, we dove into the hobbyverse business, the fundamentals
, um, how to track, kind of somebasics on copy and just kind of
outreach.
There's so much good stuff wetalked about, so, anyways, two
(37:59):
final things for you.
One, any final advice?
And two where can people findyou or contact you?
Speaker 4 (38:05):
Yeah.
So, final advice, I feel like Ilike to just give general,
because there's so manydifferent businesses out there
and you know people are all inall different parts of their
journeys.
But I mean, I I may not, maybenot seem it right now, but it
will be okay.
Um, and to have the confidencein yourself, I know when I
(38:30):
launched my site and now my, Ihad been in sales.
I have cold called people, Ihave been in like whatever.
But when it's you that I havenever been that terrified.
I'm like, oh my God, I'm goingto launch it, I'm going to.
Oh my God, oh my God.
And then I did it and it waslike I did it and so you can do
it.
I know that's so cheesy and itshould be on a coffee mug, but
(38:53):
like you can do it and it willbe okay.
So, and to contact me, I'llgive you, or my site is probably
the easiest way, which ishollycybert, that's S-E-Y B as
in boy E-R-T, copycom.
Speaker 2 (39:15):
Holly, this has been amazing.
Thank you so much for comingthrough for Forest on Fire.
This has been an honor, apleasure and a privilege.
Our house is your house.
I'm excited to be able to haveyou back in the next couple of
months to be able to hear someof those next action items, the
next steps that you've taken.
So again, we just want to saytruly appreciate you coming
through.
For those that are listening,please get home safely.
Make sure that you tune in tothe next episode of Forged in
(39:38):
Fire.
You guys, we'll talk soon.
Peace.
Speaker 1 (39:43):
Thanks for tuning in to another episode of Forged in
Fire.
If you enjoyed today's raw,unfiltered stories, don't forget
to like, subscribe and leave usa review.
Your feedback helps us bringmore real-world insights to
entrepreneurs like you.
Be sure to join us next timefor even more lessons, struggles
(40:06):
and breakthroughs on the roadto success.
Keep forging ahead.
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