A Revolutionary Act of Protest: Aaron Bushnell and the American empire – Ep 155 - Fortress On A Hill (FOH) Podcast

Episode Transcript
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Don (00:20):
This is Fortress On A Hill, with Henri, Danny, Kaygan,
Jo vonni, Shiloh, and Monisha

Jovanni (00:28):
Welcome everyone to Fortress On A Hill, a podcast about U.
S.
foreign policy, anti imperialism,skepticism, and the American way of war.
I'm Jovanni, joined by Keegan.
Thank you for being here.
How are you doing, Keegan?.

Keagan (00:42):
Yes, indeed.
It has.
A lot of things been happening.
Very very intense very sad, very tragic.
A lot of things happening,a lot of things moving.

Jovanni (00:52):
Okay.
So on Sunday, 25, February, a youngman walked to the Israeli embassy in
DC in his military uniform in frontof the embassy, drinks himself in
flammable fluid and igniting himself.
On his way there, he was filming himselfon his phone, carrying a water bottle
container, and said, "I'm an activeduty member of the US Air Force, and I

(01:13):
will no longer be complicit to genocide.
I'm about to engage in anextreme active protest.
But compared to what people havebeen experiencing in Palestine
at the hands of their colonizers,it is not extreme at all.
This is what our ruling classhas decided will be normal."
His name is Aaron Bushnell.
A native of Massachusetts, anactive duty member of the United

(01:35):
States Air Force Station in LacklandAir Force Base, San Antonio.
Aaron Jones, Kwan Duk, a monk in 1963,Malachi Richter, musician in 2006,
Charles Ingram, Navy vet in 2016.
John Watts, Army Air Force vet,2018, a woman in Atlanta who also

(01:59):
committed self immolation in frontof the Israeli consulate on December
2023, and others in the United States.
A woman in Atlanta who also committedself immolation in front of the
Israeli consulate on December 2023.
Names known and unknown.
Tonight, we'll reflect on AaronBushnell and his martyrdom and
what was his message to us inhis final act of protest.
Joining in the discussion, welcomeback to the show, Jake Tucker and

(02:20):
Rachel Tucker, and we'll extendour welcome to Ramon Mejia.
Jake Tucker is a veteran of theUnited States Army from 2001 to 20.
Jake's experience in the armyled him to the anti war and
anti imperialist movement.
He is an organizer with oppressedrevolutionaries for workers power in San
Antonio and organizes around labor, antiimperialism, and oppressed communities.

(02:44):
Rachel Tucker is a veteran of the U.
S.
Imperialist Army from 2002 to 2011.
She is a Cuban American, bornin Miami, and has lived in San
Antonio for the last 17 years.
Since leaving the military, Rachel hasdedicated herself to building within
her community around anti imperialism.
Feminism, BuildingSocialism, and Education.

(03:08):
She's also an organizer with thePress Revolutions for Workers Power.
Ramon Mejia is a Marinesveteran from 2001 through 2004.
A native of Dallas, Texas,he's an antiwar veteran.
And the Anti Militarism National Organizerat Grassroots Global Justice Alliance,
where he supports members organizingto dismantle systems of violence to

(03:31):
build healthy and thriving communities.
Welcome to the show, guys.
Thank you.
Thanks for having us.
So an interview like we said earlier,this is some intense, interesting moments.
We're just five veterans given, havinga discussion, reflecting on Aaron
Bushnell, on Palestine, Palestinians.
A person who gave his life forpeople, that he doesn't know

(03:52):
personally and his message to us.
Any of you start this is very informal.
Who wants to go first?
Your reflection on what happenedon the 25th of February and Sunday
when you first heard about this?
And what was your first thought?

Jake Tucker (04:04):
My experience was in the army was very much defined by the Iraq war.
I was studying Arabic at the timethat The Iraq war was being pushed by
the media, pushed by our politicians,pushed by basically the entire
ruling class that Aaron spoke of.
We actually had pretty robustdiscussions amongst the fellow trainees.

(04:27):
And it wasn't as uniform, as youwould think among the soldiers,
there's a lot of people who arelike, this is a terrible idea.
Other people thinking it waswhatever, a good idea, whatever.
And then some peoplethat just didn't care.
But I was very much on the anti sidebasically that we should not go to
war with Iraq side, but then as soonas the bombs started dropping during

(04:48):
the shock and awe campaign any ofthe dissent basically seemed to dry
up overnight and I became the lonedissenter everywhere I went after that.
And it very much fueleda sense of isolation.
I was very isolated and where Iwould share my opinions, people
would act very hostilely towardsme at times, not everybody by any

(05:12):
stretch, but it was something that,that was definitely present there.
Upon, reading about and learning aboutAaron's, protest, I was struck in a number
of ways, struck by his courage, and deepconviction to really, as he says, take
such an extreme act of political protest.
When I was in Iraq, that's when ChelseaManning released documents to WikiLeaks.

(05:35):
And that's another thing I thoughtof when I learned of Aaron Bushnell's
protest was thought about Chelsea Manning.
Chelsea Manning was someone I held in,hold in very high regard for her courage
and the subsequent abuse and tortureshe underwent while incarcerated, and
then was actually incarcerated again,Basically, because she was sharing

(05:59):
documents that the world needed toknow about now that we know about them.
It makes it harder for people to look awayat the crimes that this country commits.
There's something there are acts ofprotest and acts of resistance that
individuals take sometimes that arevery easy to ignore, dismiss, and wipe
away as just some disgruntled person,disgruntled military member, or as

(06:25):
I would be called, like a shitbag orsomething like that while I was in.
But I just think that any goodfaith person understands where
Aaron Bushnell is coming from.
And despite the ways that the media triesto spin who he was, what this protest
was, or even ignore what the protestwas about altogether, so as much as the

(06:45):
media tries to move the discussion, movethe narrative away from the genocide
and the liberation of Palestine it'snot really having the impact that they
desire because we've been, we've allbeen watching, we've all been paying
attention to this for months now.
And the desperation behind Aaron'sact, behind Aaron's act is very clear.

(07:08):
It's very concise.
He was concise about it.
He was composed about it.
And it makes us all pay attention in away that typical protests by individuals,
don't really reach that level.
So I'll go ahead and stop thereand see what other people think.

Jovanni (07:22):
Something that really frustrated me was just, yeah, as you mentioned,
Jake the way that the media has beenportraying Aaron's actions, some people
are just not mentioning him at all.
I think NPR also said his motives wereunclear in their initial reporting.
And I'm like, Listen to the lastfucking thing he said come on.

(07:45):
Those reporters said that he wasechoing pro Palestinian protesters.
As he was being influenced by some,I don't know, by bad influence, I
don't know, peer pressure, it was sofrustrating to just see that they didn't
want to tackle the question, because ofcourse not they're not paid to do but
yeah, I just seeing the reaction aroundthe world has been really interesting

(08:05):
especially what Arab folks have beensaying, very in support of him and
saying he's a martyr with everyone else.
No, and I thought that wasreally interesting to see
some really cool solidarity.

Rachell Tucker (08:17):
Exactly.
Even like President Maduro fromVenezuela had a solidarity statement
about Aaron Bushnell's sacrifice.
It just speaks to the worldbecause this same past week the U.
S.
vetoed for the third time aceasefire resolution at the U.

(08:40):
N.
and it's definitely not a coincidence,where Bushnell's actions come
in his very courageous actions.
I first found out about it onSunday and I was like, is this real?
And then find out that, of course itis completely real and it, I was in
just disbelief the mental preparationthat it takes to do such a courageous

(09:05):
act and to do it like y'all hadbeen saying, so concisely precise.
So that people can't be mistaken, evenif they try to change the narrative, like
he was very cautious about the words thathe used that he would not be complicit
in genocide and he identified as AirForce service member in his uniform very

(09:28):
symbolic to, I don't want to say the restof the military, but if millions have
been hitting the streets since October7th, and this government and many local
governments have chosen not to not topull funding, not to sign the ceasefire
resolutions have deployed the policeto, to be violent towards protesters.

(09:55):
Have ignored genocide, have deniedgenocide from happening in Palestine.
It is this very courageous and symbolicact of self immolation by Aaron Bushnell
that has I think, taking, takingit to another level on top of the
continued atrocities that are happeningin Palestine with today, a hundred

(10:18):
palestinians in Rafah being massacredfor while they were getting aid.
They were, they're starving andthey're getting aid and Israel took
the opportunity to massacre them.
And so it's like these actions thatare out of our control is what I think
led him, of course to perform this.

(10:39):
Very courageous and patriotic act, right?

Ramon Mejia (10:42):
No, I appreciate what everybody has said.
And yeah, I just both mourn Aaron's, andthose that, that, that were closest to
him that, are hurting at this moment.
I think for me The initial,shock you go online.
I don't even remember if it was somethingthat I was, like, online and I saw a
bulletin or if it was on social media,but the first thing that I thought

(11:05):
was, like, I saw I heard I read selfimmolation, and, and Air Force veteran,
I'm like, surprised, what happenedwhat's the reasoning I didn't, you
were getting pieces of information.
I'm like, oh these were actually hislast words and starting to put a little
bit of information together then.
So then, once I saw that Aaron sacrificedhimself to raise the concern and the

(11:28):
alarm around the genocide in Palestine.
The immediately next thought that Ihad was, like, someone just Did that
in Atlanta prior to before Christmas,so I'm like, that's just happened, I
was like, that's when I was thinkingwow, that's been two people thus far,
and, just thinking, in the role thatI work at at GDJ around the connection

(11:49):
around extractive economy, dealing alot with climate change, that, that
aspect and working within that sector.
I recall like learning about someonethat had did self immolation on
Earth Day as a result to raisealarm around climate change.
And, this being like an anti war veteran,being like knowledgeable about the legacy

(12:12):
and the history that self immolation hasin the anti war movement in the broader
global movement against Oppression andmilitarization and war and genocide
and violence, that's, Aaron's a part ofthat legacy and, I agree just like how,
fellow comrades have said he was preciseIn his words that he was engaging in an

(12:36):
extreme act of protest but that comparedto what the people were experiencing
in Palestine is not extreme at all.
Every day, Palestinians are being killed.
Every day, Palestinians are beingengulfed in the flame, just like
Aaron got engulfed in the flame.
And, the ruling class, as he's, asAaron said, the ruling class has

(12:59):
made this norm, like it's normal.
I think it's like, The desensitization,it's bringing, it's raising an alarm
around the desensitization of theviolence and the militarized violence
that both the police, the prisons, themilitary engages on a day in, day out
and would become so desensitized that wedon't even realize that it's happening.
It's another person is dead, another, 200they're just numbers to the wider public.

(13:25):
I think I don't even think I've finishedprocessing or even started to really
process what what Aaron's self immolationand his sacrifice means for the wider
movement, it's definitely It's reallyengaged, it's really galvanized and
moved a lot of people and it's alsobrought forth like the need to like, we

(13:45):
have to continue building deeper bondsand deeper community with one another
to continue to strategize and seeinghow best we can stop the violence and
stop this genocide that's happening.
Yeah, those, it's it's something that Ithink I'll continue to process as the days
and the weeks go ahead because in thismoment, it's like, how can we respond?
How can we, answer thecall that Aaron put out?

Keagan (14:07):
I think there's some good news on that front.
I don't know if you guys saw, butthe Michigan primary, over 100,
000 people voted uncommitted.
Which is 10 times what they were hoping,like the mayor of Dearborn once said
that they were hoping to get 10, 000.
And they got over 100, 000 people, whichis like a 10 percent of people in all

(14:27):
the counties to say that to make thisstatement and say we don't support this
and we don't support what you're doing.
I hope that, that shows people look.
, you need to do something aboutthis or else you're gonna lose.
You'll lose Michigan.

Jovanni (14:42):
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, I echo all of whatyou guys shared so far.
Yeah, it was, I'm still processingas well, but at the same time, it's
disturbing because It's disturbing inthe sense that, there have been other
ethnic cleansings before, there havebeen other genocides before, there
have been there have been, fictitiousor fictitious genocides that have been
tried to, trying to weaponize to getpeople to, To get people worked up to,

(15:08):
to consent a, some type of militaryinterventions, I can think of several
with, where ruling class just blow upthings that to try to get consent from
people like, for the minor thing, they'requick to call anything genocide, they're
quick to call anything genocide genocide,
the so called genocide in China, withUyghurs with no proof whatsoever, the
so called genocide in, even in Russiaso they're quick to call genocide

(15:33):
everything but when it comes to actualEthnic cleansing, actual genocide, which
is live streamed, which is everybody cansee, everybody's witnessing, everybody's
going around the world, everybody'sseeing the images everyone is seeing it
they'll go nope, this is not genocide,nope, technically, this is not genocide,
and they just to make excuses for it,they do gymnastics, they do backflips,
they do all kinds of stuff to deny Whatyou're lying little eyes are seeing, are

(15:58):
watching, you're not really seeing this,this is a fiction of your imagination.
. When the first time I actually sat downand started thinking about conflict,
war was with the Panamanian invasion.
I was a teenager then and I was seeinghow the whole media was, was working
up the media and everything how it wasnecessary, how it was just in I was just

(16:18):
so absolutely necessary to intervene inPanama because so much things, so much
horrible things are happening in Panama.
We just have to go.
We just have to go, because Noriega islike the next is like a Hitler incarnated.
He was actually, I think Bushcalled him Atilla the Hun.
That's what Bush called him.
Atilla the Hun so they worked upthe whole mass population, right?
We have to intervene.
We have to intervene because so muchhorrible things is happening in Panama.

(16:41):
And we saw the invasion in Panama.
So that was the first time I actuallysat down And think about, what this
all means, what this, how they workpeople up, how the media work people
up, how everything's just pretty muchconnected, and everybody's just pretty
much joined at the hip, and everybody'sjust pretty much echoing the same
messages, and whatnot, just to manipulateyou supporting something, right?
This It's the other way around.

(17:02):
This is, they're downplaying things,they're downplaying it, they're using
schematics, they're using, technicalities,they're using all these big words
and everything, they're trying tomanipulate you into Not seeing or telling
you what you're seeing is not true.
What you're seeing is Hamaspropaganda, the way they say it, being

(17:22):
deceived, that you're crazy, thatyou're not, go on with your life.
Don't think about it.
Nothing to see here,that's what's frustrating.
And then when you bring itup, you're gaslighted as if
it's you that's messed up.
That's, it's you that's.
That is wrong, why don't why don't yoube like everybody else, just look the
other way, just live your life, justturn on the TV, just, do whatever, don't
look this way, nothing to see here.
That's what's frustrating.

Absolutely frustrating and.
It begs the question we go to protestswe email and talk, go in person, talk to
our politicians, the people that say theyhave the power that speak in our name but
we're the the people are the ones withthe power, and the people, every time we
get together it is an impressive force.

(18:06):
But what I really wanted to mention isthat he was from San Antonio, not from San
Antonio, but stationed in San Antonio likewhere we're at, where Jake and I are at.
And yesterday we organized a littlegroup of antiwar vets and we went and
spoke before city council and it was itwas pretty powerful because San Antonio

(18:28):
is called Military City USA and itglorifies the military just the rest
of the United States does, and the rollcall where all of our previous ranks and
last names were called and then Aaron'sname was called three times And you

(18:49):
look at the faces of the city councilpeople who have been repeatedly, every
week, people have been coming, everyweek people demanding that they pass an
actual permanent ceasefire resolution.
And, they were just shocked.
They were shook.
You could tell that theywere paying attention.

(19:09):
They were actually looking.
One of them started to tear up.
And so it's us vets carry, wecarry the mirror up to the face of
the people that always glorify themilitary and veterans and all of this.
And we each basically told our, some partsof our story and our good friend Jules

(19:33):
Vaquera sang part of a song that's calledWar Criminal from our own experience.
And it was really powerful.
And we do what we can and we'll continueto go out and protest but I think what
Aaron really wanted us to do is continuethe fight and call out the being gaslit,
like you were talking about, Jovanni,and just continue organizing and bringing

(19:56):
out people because this, we're witnessingthe genocide, and even though they deny
it, I looked at the Army Times just tosee what they were talking about Aaron
Bushnell, before we came into this thismeeting, and essentially they just covered
the facts, and then said some have saidthat Israel is committing genocide.

(20:21):
So just leaving it up into the possibilitythat it's not, and it's just disgusting

One, one kind of quick thought I wanted to, Come back to as I
was listening to other folks talking.
I think it's an open question right now,what's the response for other active
duty military members going to be?
I mentioned just a, when I openedup the impact that, that Chelsea
Manning's courage and leaking ofdocuments and all that had on me.

(20:52):
I was already a dissenter by I rememberthinking like actually Chelsea Manning
worked a job that was not all thatdissimilar from a job I was working.
I was Intel as she was.
It's just it opened my eyes upinto like, how one can resist
rather than just be so angry.

(21:13):
And I'll just call it what it was forme, like nihilistic about everything.
Like I was just hopeless and nihilistic.
People with the strength and the courageto to move something forward and, I
don't think you're necessarily goingto see protests or whatever in the form
of errands per se, but I do think, atleast it's my hope I can't say for sure,

(21:38):
but I do think the Armed forces, likemembers of the armed forces, are going
to take, have already taken notice.
It is impossible not to take notice.
And many of them.
Couldn't give you percentages, numbers,or anything like that, but , many
of them are like having extremelycomplicated thoughts and feelings
about what they are complicit in.

(21:58):
And Aaron named it.
Aaron named what we'recomplicit in, right?
And then stood up and had thecourage to do something about it.
And so I do I just, I wonder what'sgoing to come of this from other
service members, vets too, as well.
But I think The resistance coming fromactive duty people might be more more

(22:19):
than we've seen since, say, Vietnam orsomething like that, and those were in
the times of draft and, It's going to,it's going to limit, it's going to limit
the legitimacy of command structures.
It's going to limit limit theeffectiveness the legitimacy of
political leadership, and so onwithin the armed forces, I think.
I'm not saying it's going to crippleit completely, but I'm not saying But

(22:42):
I do wonder what the implications willbe in the active duty armed forces.

Jovanni (22:46):
I was looking at the the Ken 5 San Antonio news
channel when they reported it.
The way they framed it likeyou said Rachel they stated the
fact, this is what happened.
And then they had a they quicklywent to some air force spokesperson.
Uniform.
He was saying that he was telling ussomething about, this tragic this,

(23:08):
that but they initially, but theway they moved this, the way they
directed, the issue was towards suicide.
You know how how there is a crisis,and I don't, you don't hear much, you
don't hear much about it anymore, but Iremember back, during the height of Iraq
and when Iraq , was You know, dwindlingdown, they were talking about the crisis
of veteran suicide, 22 veterans taketheir lives a day, et cetera, right?

(23:33):
So that's way, that's a way thatthe the news clip from Cane 5,
started going towards suicide.
And at the end the reporter,the person who was.
Who was the only reporter.
She talked about the suicide hotline,if you're having thoughts of harming
yourself you're having thoughts of,this and that, call the suicide hotline.
That's how she finished her report.
By, by gearing, by guiding theconversation toward suicide, pretty

(23:57):
much It takes away from the intentof Aaron, what Aaron was intending.
It takes away and they shape it,they frame it as if Aaron was, was
dealing with some mental health issuesversus what was the actual message
that Aaron was trying to convey.

(24:18):
I've seen in other posts saying that, thatwe're when I saw a post somewhere where it
was from an article, one of the articles Iread about Aaron saying that, we're often
called heroes, when we go out, you know,And, to wars and, die and kill for some
military objective, we're called heroes.

(24:40):
But when we give up our life for acause, when we give up our life for
for justice, our mental health is putin question, so some to that effect.

I think it's that that someone cannot be radicalized to take
extreme action it's only ever seenas irrational when someone is taking
extreme action, when it's done onbehalf of the government and its
foreign policy, it's seen as rational.
And I think Aaron's, and I said I thinkstill processing is still thinking,

(25:13):
but it's important that for folks toacknowledge that, Aaron wore his uniform
not out of a sense of obligation tothe military or in honoring of the
military , that was his resignation.
Not only was that hisresignation, but because in U.
S.
society and because of the waythat War is propagated and sold

(25:34):
to the public the public at largeinvisibilizes the harm done to black
and brown and poor people and, aroundthe world and the wars that we wage.
So it's invisibilized.
Palestinians are being bombarded andsieges laid on them, and being killed
every single day and the public, goes on.

(25:56):
So I think that image of a, youdon't have to know Aaron, but an
image of a young white American,troop you see the fatigues, you see
the uniforms, and they're in flames.
It's going to stop you and you'regoing to have to like assess and
process like what you're actuallywitnessing, because up until that point.

(26:17):
I don't know, like, how peoplethat aren't politicized, but,
scrolling through social media, onthe news, you're seeing the images.
Palestinians are showing you the imageof the suffering that they're enduring
and people go on their day to day.
And I feel like the public that hasn'tbeen acknowledging what's happening in

(26:38):
Palestine are now like paying attention.
So I think the goal like of us is tocenter what aaron was censoring was
like, was the genocide, to stop thegenocide in Gaza and the complicity,
both like at the wider at large, but thenalso I think also like at the uniform,
and people in the military, confront
what you're a part of and readdress andrecess your commitment to the ethos of

(27:05):
what America, what America sells you,like life, liberty, pursuit of happiness,
like justice it's all distorted for the U.
S.
military and the U.
S.
government, but those are still likevalues that on a personal level,
like you could Refrain to what theymean to you and, being a part of a
trillions and trillions of dollars,military machine doesn't bring liberty.

(27:26):
It brings pain and suffering.
And yeah, I think Aaron wanted us,jolt, people into action to stop the
weapons shipments to Israel, stop thediplomatic cover of of genocide, and
the occupation stop, the complicityand the actual material support
to the genocide that's happening.

Keagan (27:44):
We're seeing in play out in Gaza and also in Ukraine just the fact that,
modern war is a meat grinder and itjust eats people and material up and If
we're not if we don't take a step backto think about why we're doing this,
why it's happening, who benefits fromit, then we're really doing everyone

(28:08):
that dies a disservice, I think.
And, it's just I do hope that, Ihope what Aaron did is inspiring
conversations of people in the military.
I, like you, Jake, I was inthe intelligence community.
And I felt like very alone, with a lotof my thoughts and the way that I felt.

(28:28):
I had a few friends luckily, thatI could talk about things with,
but most of the time, you justhave to do what you're a part of.
And I think it's, it's you.
When someone de decide makes a decision.
To stop doing that in such a visibleand public way, it, like Ramón said you

(28:48):
have to take notice, you have to stopand think, and, we're really living in
a different world, now that things aredifferent, things are totally different
now, because we have to think aboutwhat made this young man do this?
And a lot of people, like you said,that are not politicized have to think
about things and have to wrestle with,some cognitive dissonance and maybe some

(29:11):
uncomfortable feelings about what themilitary is and what we're supporting
with our dollars and our money.
And I just think that I do hope thatit's sparked some people thinking
about doing something else or,finishing out their contract and
just being like, okay, I'm done.
Hopefully it does.

Jovanni (29:33):
One of his posts on his social media stated Many of us
like to ask ourselves, What wouldI do if I was alive doing slavery?
Or Jim Crow South, or Apartheid.
What would I do if my countrywas committing genocide?
The answer is, you're doing it, right now.

(29:55):
Just like Jake was talking about howsince October 7th, folks here in San
Antonio has been going to city councilevery Wednesday, bring it up to a city
council members, because just to givecontext of what Jake mentioned, San
Antonio is a sister city of Tel Aviv.
It's a friendship city of Tel Aviv.

(30:16):
We've been asking people here inSanta, we've been filling city council
every Wednesday with, with people,and just asking in every which way.
Upside down, left every which way,to our mayor, Ron Nirenberg, this
progressive, person from, supposed toalways talked about San Antonio being a

(30:38):
compassionate city, and Etcetera etcetera.
So we've been going there every weekevery people taking off their time,
people getting off work early, just togo to City Council every day at five
every Wednesday at five it starts, toask him every, any which way to drop
some, a simple act, just to drop theFriendship City status with Tel Aviv.

(30:58):
That's the simplest thingyou can do, and people there,
People tell their narratives.
We have Palestinian peopletalking about, how people are
trapped in Gaza, they can't leave.
And, we have a Jewish person comeup, there as well saying I'm a Jewish
person and, they can't do this in myname, and they're all They're they're
manipulating us and, we want you to endthis friendship, just this friendship

(31:21):
sitting with Tel Aviv and every, and nope,that's his answer is no, he's supposed
to be this progressive icon here in SanAntonio and he has refused so far and his
his statements are that that this is not,our friendship status is not politicized,
it's not political it's, People to peopledialogue and blah, blah, this and that
but yeah so with that statement that hesays there, that Aaron says there, what,

(31:45):
what would, what would people do, if,you ask yourself, what would you do if
you're doing, living doing slavery, you'redoing, you're living, doing Jim Crow era,
if you're living, doing apartheid, whatwould you do, if you're living in, if you
could, if your government was, if yourcountry was committing genocide, if you're
living in Nazi Germany, what would you do?
And the answer is right there.
I know what Aaron, I know whatwhat Ron Nuremberg would do.

(32:08):
Ron Nuremberg would,would, would go with it.
Any

thoughts on that?
Just real quick,

he would literally meet with Joe Biden

today.
This was happening

literally today.
Ron Nuremberg's meeting with Joe Biden.
Genocide Joe and RonNuremberg together at last.
It's a little

too perfect.
Yeah.
Go ahead, Rick.
No, go, you go.
No, I think I can't presume toknow what I would do, in other
time periods and in other events Ican imagine like what I would do.
And it's okay, I'm here.
What is like the most importantthing that I can do today to

(32:50):
make the world a better place?
What is it that I can do withinlike my means and within my, my,
my individual power to, to address.
The harms that are being, committedin our society and the harms that
are being committed the extreme harmsthat are being committed, the genocide
that's being committed in Gaza.
But I'd want to, I'd want to say and tryand answer that question that I would want

(33:16):
to do any and everything within my means.
To make it stop, right?
So it's don't know I agree and, andy'all, when y'all are sharing about every
Wednesday going to City Council, and it'shappening here in Dallas too, I've sent
emails to specific council members, bothveterans hey, I want to meet with y'all
we want to, there's a crew, a communityof us that we want to meet, and I come

(33:38):
at it from I, in the emails and likein the outreach, like coming at it from
a very hey, like there's one councilmember, like his mother was a teacher.
I'm like, my mom was a teacher, a retiredteacher and he's a representative of
the community that my mom was teaching.
So I'm like, I want to like,try and make that connection.
Same thing with another councilmember, like he's a Marine.

(34:00):
Like a veteran deployed to Iraq,Afghanistan, and I'm like, he's comes from
a very similar neighborhood that I comefrom, in Oak Cliff working class Latino
community and so on I want to bring that,try and make that connection of that
we're, we cut, that we're all like, verysimilar and more, we have more in common

(34:23):
than those that, Genuinely have the powerand I feel I don't want to beat my head
against the door and being like, continueto go and do the same thing over and
over and over again and get no response.
I'd want to like.
Build collectively like a communityand and find comrades and friends to

(34:45):
continue to strategize and restrategizethe tactics that we're engaged in order
to, apply pressure to these folks andand these Folks in, in city governments
and local governments and, federalgovernment, all that state, and this is,
what they understand is votes and money,and it's like, how can we go beyond

(35:07):
that and not say we're only not goingto be, like, uncommitted, but we're,
like, we're withdrawing our consent togovern in that sense we're no longer
going to be, like, engaged in the systemand that, so when I think about it at
the city council level, we're in thecity, at the city level engaging other
organizations, do photo ops with them.
The electives and seeing going to themand maybe trying to appeal to them.

(35:30):
I feel like there's so many waysthat we can continue to try.
And I know folks have been trying alldifferent kinds of tactics and strategies.
And it's we have tocontinue figuring that out.
I think that's, we're ata position with no power.
And we have to create thatpower for our community.
And try and make way for them, for us.

Yeah, no, exactly.
I think this question and and the quoteby Bushnell is really good, right?
Because so many times, there'sso many dystopian films, right?
During the Holocaustduring massive fascists.
Oppression during all the badthings in the world, right?

(36:13):
And there's always like agroup of people resisting.
So it's You know, it's something that,for some reason, is very hard for some,
especially politicians, but, forgetthem, but for some people to actually
see that connection, and so many people.

(36:34):
Especially politicians say likenever again and like literally on
January 27th I think it was likeInternational Holocaust Remembrance Day.
And this was, there was agenocide happening in Palestine.
And I think, essentially we canask the question, like, where would

(36:55):
the same thing like where wouldwe be during the Holocaust, right?
But in Jim Crow South and Apartheidthere's a racial question too which
I think you mentioned earlier, Ramónthat the racism, of course, comes
into this who is human and who is not,unfortunately and us that have been out

(37:19):
in the streets, that have been protesting,doing whatever we can know that.
That's a bunch of bullshit.
That's imperialism.
And so I think one of the, one ofthe things that is really important
about this question is to talk aboutagency and like you were talking about
Ramón, like the different ways thatwe can activate it and practice it.

(37:43):
Right?
Because I think like once, whensomebody comes to consciousness.
And they're like, I need to do something.
I need to get involved.
They figured they try out allsorts of ways of getting involved
of protesting, of speaking out.
Many of us did it within the military.

(38:03):
We finally found our agencyand fought back within it.
I think those on this call,we know what we would do,
because we're doing it, right?
And I think, essentially the power isin the people, and the more, that's
what we have to focus on is keeporganizing the people, keep making those
connections of how essentially, themoney that is used to drop bombs on our

(38:31):
brothers and sisters in Palestine andelsewhere You know, but mainly in the
genocide that's happening in Palestineright now is our tax dollars, right?
What can that be used forinstead of that, right?
All the basic needs that we arelacking for here, and I don't want
to make it sound, like it's all aboutmoney, but it's essentially it's about

(38:54):
it's about like people power, right?
And how we're able to Together,collectively, use our agency to fight
for the things that we need and want anddeserve, which is to stop, it's our duty
to end imperialism within the UnitedStates, within the Balearic Islands.
It's our duty to ensure that therest of the country, self determines.

(39:16):
And the rest of the world self determines,and within the country as well.
And I just really love that questionthat Aaron left us with because
it pushes us to, to be better, todo better, and do more, and more

Jovanni (39:33):
effectively.
So let me ask you something.
So the people I mentioned above all inthe intro, minus, I believe, two people
all of them use Southern Malaysian asa form of protest in different eras.
The earliest one here in the list that Imentioned above was in the Vietnam era.

(39:53):
The other ones were doing thethe wars in the Middle East.
What do you feel is the connection betweenAaron's protests, the protests of the
people mentioned above, and the military?
And I'll give you where I'm goingwith this, because I recall,
now we have social media, right?

(40:14):
And social media, like I said earlier,we're witnessing the first time,
the first genocide ethnic cleansingin history, where it's being live
streamed, where everybody can see it.
In the past, peopleDidn't have that luxury.
In the past, I remember when Iwould, when we deployed to Bosnia,
for example, we were the majority ofthe American population didn't know

(40:36):
what was going on in Yugoslavia.
We were briefed by our our I forgot,these the intel people came and
briefed us what was going on before wedeployed, and that's what we relied on.
We, that's the only thing we relied on.
We relied on what was givento us, and that's how we made
sense of what was going on.
But Today we have the ability to catchthem in their lies, which before we
didn't we'll find out years laterthat they lied to us, like the the

(41:00):
what happened in the Vietnam with,what was it, the Potempkin what was it
called, the Potempkin, the Potempkin.
What was it?
The Potempkin, yeah.
Yeah, the the, turned out it was a lie.
But now we can catch them intheir lies in real time, what
is this doing to the military?
What do you think, what's affectingthings going to the to the rank and
file of the military in your opinion?

Can I combine both the last topic and this one a little bit here?
Is that cool?
Alright, I'll just go for it.
Sure.
So I think there's an incredibleamount of depth to the social media
posts that we were talking about.
While we met Aaron briefly, I don'tknow, I didn't know Aaron enough To
say exactly where he specificallywas going with this, but if you look

(41:44):
at what he's talking about, right?
If you're alive during slavery, duringJim Crow, during apartheid during
a genocidal period of your if yourcountry is committing genocide, right?
And you're doing it now, right?
The examples he lists out thereare actually very long struggles.
For more UN videos visit www.
un.
org these are not struggles thatwe might get taught a little bit

(42:07):
in our books There's a thing calledJim Crow, and it was terrible, and
MLK came along, and boom then we hadthe Civil Rights Act, and now the U.
S.
is not racist or something, but we knowthat these are very long struggles,
and also we've never completelyovercome these struggles either.
These struggles are still here withus today and, their legacy lives on.

(42:29):
of the struggles and of theoppressions of the horrors of these
oppressions live with us today.
And there's a broader question ofokay, so how do we end these things?
And I, I do think, yeah, whilesocial media moves, moves
information quicker, it also movesconfusion quicker at the same time.
And, and I can't as we were talkingabout at the top don't believe

(42:52):
your, don't believe your lying eyes,believe the government, believe
the media, believe the, whatever,believe the social media posts,
believe this, that, the other thing.
And we, there's a podcast on RaniaKhalek's Dispatches sometime last week or
the week before with guest Mateo Capasso.

(43:13):
I don't remember exactly whatthe name of the episode was, but
anyways, anyone can look it up.
And it was talking about one ofthe things that it was talking
about among many other things.
It's a great episode.
The guest Mateo was talking about Thenecessity of revolutionary patience, of
patience in building our movements, butnot patience as in we sit back and just

(43:37):
chill, but the patience to build it.
movements capable, organizations capableof confronting power, of actually,
we can we're all seeing that we'rebuilding things, but our sources of
power are not responding to this.
And so he was speaking about it inthe context of the axis of resistance.

(44:00):
Largely, and he instructsus, basically, to move at the
historical tempo of the South.
And so it's what does that mean, to moveat the historical tempo of the South?
There's a couple things wecan take out of that, right?
Like, when we think of the South, theglobal South, or as we're starting
to call it now, the global majority,but what we're talking about are the

(44:20):
colonized and oppressed peoples of theworld over, basically since colonization
began like basically these are thepeople that white supremacy imperialism
under monarchical and then capitalistgovernments basically called too stupid.
to poor, to backwards, to uncivilized,whatever, to be able to organize

(44:44):
themselves for liberation.
To be able to even if they didorganize themselves for liberation,
to be able to govern themselves andwhatever other racist tropes exist.
existed and continue toexist until today, right?
You still have I think it was JosephBurrell basically calling the global south
the jungle and Europe the garden, right?

(45:04):
He's the EU whatever head guy, but sothese things still absolutely exist
with us and they imbue itself in thelanguage of the genocide as literal.
Israeli, powerful figures callPalestinians human animals
and all this sort of stuff.
But what has happened is the global south,not not patience in the sense of Showing

(45:32):
out, but patience in the sense of like thestruggle needs to always continue forward.
We need to build institutionsthat can move us forward.
And when we have a moment, we need to beable to to strike back for our liberation.
And what does it, I want to type intothe, what does this have to do with the U.

(45:52):
S.
military, right?
The U.
S.
military is the tip ofthe spear, if you will.
It is the cutting edgeof the US imperialism.
US imperialism means alot of different things.
It means financial dom domination, itmeans dollar hegemony but the way that
most of us think of imperialism or the USis 800 military bases around the world.

(46:15):
It means the military.
Troops bombs, armaments, now drones,and all these different things, right?
But one thing that's very clear,
at least basically most of my basicallymy entire adult lifetime is that The U.
S.
can have every advantage in termsof monetary expenditure, in terms

(46:37):
of the highest forms of technology,in terms of being able to control,
control the narrative with Socialmedia, mainstream media, and so on,
and all these different advantages.
But the thing that itcannot do is win wars.
And we've been at war in the largertheater of what's called the Middle
East, West Asia for decades on decades.

(47:01):
And In many of the sub theatersof that larger theater,
what we are seeing is the U.
S.
and their allies continue tolose, just continue to lose.
Look at who we, who theaxis of resistance is.
The axis of resistance is Iran, who hasbeen sanctioned For years on years and

(47:24):
on years basically has been like the U.
S.
has tried to isolate Iran since theIslamic Revolution in 1979, the axis of
resistance is Hezbollah which has existedsince 1982, but since Since the first
decade of the 2000s, Israel has found itimpossible to invade and occupy Hezbollah.

(47:46):
The Axis of Resistance are thepopular mobilization units of Iraq
and Syria, which were initially stoodup to fight ISIS, but are also anti
imperialist resistance organizations.
The axis of resistance isHamas and Islamic resistance.
The axis of resistance is Ansar Allah inYemen, who defeated Saudi Arabia with U.

(48:10):
S.
funding and support.
And every tool, intelligence andall that, every tool that the U.
S.
could give, the much strongerSaudi Arabia, they still were not
able to beat Ansar Allah in Yemen.
And so now Yemen is basicallythe ruling government of the
majority of peoples in Yemen.
And so what.
What this has to do with the U.

(48:31):
S.
military is that the war,
the war in the larger theater now has asingular focal point on the sub theater of
Palestine, where Liberation was announced.
Liberation was declared on October 7th.

(48:52):
But this is not a force that theIsraelis can actually go toe to toe with.
That's been demonstrated as well.
Every time the Israelis try tocome in and occupy Gaza, they
get kicked out every single time.
They cannot execute theirgoals there militarily.
And so just like the United States.
Just like the United States does in Iraq,Afghanistan, just like we did in Libya,

(49:17):
just like we've done in Syria, maybeto a little bit lesser of a degree, or
at least a less, I shouldn't say lesserdegree, a less overt degree all the U.
S.
can really do.
They cannot executetheir goals militarily.
All they can really do isterrorize, complete cause complete
devastation and basically just tryto, we, we're accustomed in the U.

(49:42):
S.
to just talking about body counts, right?
What are body counts?
They are not an indicationof you winning the war.
If you have to continuously climbthe number of body counts, it
means that you are not winning.
You're not winning your politicalobjectives, which are supposed to be
the basis of the war in the first place.

(50:02):
And Aaron has connected somethingthat I don't know that is part of even
the discussions in the protests andthe protest, like the organizations
organizing protests and whatever,at least I haven't heard it a ton.
But that it is like the genocide is.
Part of this broader theater of war, whichhas been raging for decades, and it's

(50:26):
one that is the uss, it's one that isIsra Israels, it's been Saudi Arabia's.
I don't want to go too far on thisbecause I don't know, it seems Saudi
Arabia has at least removed itself fromthe hostilities at least to a certain
degree since it's ceasefire with Ansarlaw and its reproachment with Iran.
Not sure on that.

(50:47):
But anyways, this is partof a broader process.
And right now the focus is on,and as the axis of resistance
is focused upon liberation ofPalestine for this particular time
of the broader theater of war.
And Aaron has connected somethingyou Through this protest that I
think hasn't been spoken aboutor touched upon all that much.

(51:10):
And I, anyways I'll stop therebecause I'd love to see y
hear y'all's thoughts on that.
If you think there's coherenceto what I'm saying here.
If you think I'm off base on all of this,

Jovanni (51:20):
Ramon Romano, you have to leave in a few.
You wanna go while you gottago at it and before you leave.

Yeah.
What specifically?
I think.
Yeah, I don't I'm still trying to processa lot of the what Jake was saying, but
definitely feel like there's definitelylike a focal point of being able to
pinpoint what's happening in Gazaand the wider connection that the U.
S.
and Israel and its allies wage war on.
And, around the world in otherareas yeah, I don't know.

(51:49):
Just, I'm still thinking.
Yeah.
But definitely yeah, I definitelyfeel that point for sure.

Jovanni (51:55):
Before you leave, you want to close out with anything?

Oh, no, I can wait to hear a little bit.
I have five minutes or so.
But definitely just, yeah, I wantedto just real quickly appreciate, being
able to share space with you all andbe able to think through and process
this moment and where we're at andbeing able to lift up Aaron's Life
and really stern politics and visionfor what we needed to do into action.

(52:18):
And yeah, just look forward to continuelike those combos and continues

Jovanni (52:21):
to deepen for sure.
Anyone?
Thank you.
Ramón.
Anyone else want to comment on add toor comment on, on, on what Jake stated?

I can go.
I think it's really since you put itlike that where it's like Aaron was
hitting at something in terms of abigger like macro look at the whole, like
the war and the genocide, and like thefuture, actually not future because it's
happening And aggressions on, on Yemen,on Hezbollah, on, on Syria, even on the U.

(52:59):
S.
bases that should not exist in Iraq.
Still but they do.
And so I think, I saw in the newsthat essentially he was also privy to
information and about deployments AirForce deployments to the Gaza Strip to
right in the tunnels or clear tunnelsor whatever whatever they do, whatever

(53:23):
the Air Force can do in the area.
Thank you.
And I think there is a lot of thingsthat, that we're, we as general public
are not privy to that the Pentagondecides and moves and shifts military
members like PONS for their goals or fortheir main access to the Middle East,
which is Israel their partner and so Ithink it's a bigger conversation, right?

(53:50):
And I think we, we can probably dedicatea whole show to that and it's important
because it is geopolitical politics andit will affect us all in so many ways.
I did want to mention obviouslythe military's been in a
recruitment crisis for some time.
And then also that the people the soldiersthat have been deported, deployed to

(54:13):
the border are also struggling with thatemotion that emotional And wait, right?
The moral injury that comes with alot of soldiers being black and brown
where their parents, maybe their firstgeneration immigrants and then, it's a,
I think one of the first time I noticeda big shift was when during the Black

(54:35):
Lives Matter protests, where the uprisingsagainst police brutality happened in
2020 soldiers were used against ourown ourselves against their own people.
And, More, I think more and more, theconflict between what the military is
supposed to do according to the rulingclass and what they talk about that it is.

(55:01):
Is super duper exposed and more andmore us working class people that join
the military are just like reaching apoint that we, that it's impossible,
like the bribe doesn't work anymore, Ithink that's I hope that makes sense.

Thanks so much, y'all.
I'm gonna jump out.
Appreciate y'all.

Jovanni (55:22):
Thanks.
Ramón.
Thanks,

Ramón.
Thank you for your time.

Jovanni (55:26):
I don't know.
Yeah, going back on what Jakewas mentioning and the connection
that Aaron made with this wholeordeal I think you mentioned it.
Jake and I met Aaron briefly.
About two years ago, and he wasat a we were actually at a rally.
I think Jake was leading it.
Weren't you organizing that rally fora local kid, I believe he was 16 years

(55:48):
old, that got shot by the police inMcDonald's while he was having a hamburger
with his with his girlfriend, and thepolice just pulled him out of his car.
Because the day before, Eric Cantu,yeah, his name was Eric Cantu, the day
before something happened between himand that police officer, the police
officer recognized them in the McDonald'sand decided to to, I don't know, arrest

(56:12):
them or whatnot and drag them out.
Tried to drag him out of his carand pulled his gun and shot him,
I think shot him several timesactually, shot him and the girlfriend.
He survived.
But going back to the, so we did aso Jay, I think you were organizing
the the rally in front of theMcDonald's where he was shot at, right?

(56:34):
And I was wearing my AboutFace shirt or IVAW shirt, can't
remember which shirt I was wearing.
I was, and we were just talking, wewere wrapping up, was cleaning up,
was, wrapping up all the cables forthe PA system that we're using and
everything, and then this kid showed up.
And started talking to us.
He by shirt caught his attention andhe was talking to us and said he told

(56:55):
us that he was Air Force and he'sbeen in San Antonio X amount of time.
He said, and then we juststarted talking, and he asked us
where's that, he liked our shirt.
I told him, yes, it's a it's aveterans organization shirt about
faith, veterans against the war.
I gave him a little, I toldhim to look us up online.
And there's just a few ofus here in San Antonio, etc.
And that was it.
That was that was a littlea stretch of a conversation.

(57:17):
We didn't we never saw him again afterthat, but that was like two years ago.
And I was reminded by that,actually, this when was it?
Tuesday.
When we met Tuesday Rachel reminded us ofthat brief encounter that we had with him.
Yeah going back to what Jake wassaying, I think Jake, you are correct
the Israel and the United States, bothIsrael, because this is not an Israeli

(57:40):
genocide, this is an American Israeligenocide, because Israel would not
be able to do what it does withoutthe financial support, without the
diplomatic support, without the politicalsupport of the United States, Israel
is a country, I think it's about sixmillion people Israeli citizens, right?
There are more people thatlive in Israel, right?
But the Palestinians that livein Israel or the Palestinian

(58:01):
that lives in Palestine, Nagapai,Palestine, which Israel control
they're not Israeli citizens, right?
So Israel control their lives.
There are about 5 million.
Of them and Israel control theirlives, but they have no citizen rights.
That's why Israel is an apartheidstate, but Israel is losing.
It's losing credibility, it'slosing tactically on the ground.

(58:22):
It's losing diplomaticallyaround the world.
The, they used to, Beat us on the headwith telling us that, for criticizing
Israel, we're anti Semitic they usedto, but that's not working anymore.
It's not working anymore.
So they're getting more aggressive.
They're getting more aggressive in,on, on media, they're getting more
aggressive on Shabbat Shalom on themedia on attacking the protests and

(58:43):
everything because they're, because theold saying is, the emperor has no clothes.
They're in it naked right now.
Both Israel and the United Statesand Great Britain and the EU.
The whole West right now, it'sin a, it's in a nude right now.
Everyone can see for what they are.
The West has been dictating tothe global majority for years now.
You need to do this.
You need to do that.

(59:03):
Human rights, this, human rights,that and this and that and blah, blah,
blah, blah, this and that, right?
But right now they havenothing to fall on.
Right now, everyone is seeing this.
Everyone is seeing what's happening.
And everyone is seeing that the Westis going, is getting out of their way
to justify what Israel is doing, toprotect Israel, to criminalize those

(59:26):
who attempt to, to bring that out orwho protested what Israel is doing.
People have lost their jobs.
People have been fired.
I think there are laws in, theyhave laws in Germany and France
where they made it illegal todisplay Israeli Palestinian flags.
We're passing the symbols.
I think you get fined.
I think it was in Great Britain wherepeople or the UK where people were
using parachutes, little parachutefigures and stuff like that to, to,

(59:49):
and they were getting fined for that,because they're, because they were.
Quote unquote supporting tourism forflashing those things, so the world is
seeing how repressive the West can getonce its credibility is put on trial,
you gotta PM MP, an MP, a minister ofparliament in, in, in Spain that called
out Israel and called out to sanctionIsrael and she got relieved, she got, she

(01:00:11):
had to step down, from her post, so we'reseeing that, And the, and what Jake said
about American empire, so American empire,an empire is a system that we live in.
It's not a particular state,it's a system that we're living
that is led by the United States.
And we're seeing it's in retreat.
It's been in retreat fromat least 2000 and beyond.

(01:00:33):
It's been in retreat since then, at least.
And as they're retreating,they're becoming more and more

Jake Tucker (01:00:38):
aggressive.
Just one second, I don't know ifI'd say retreat, decay, maybe.
Decay more than retreat.
They're getting more aggressive.

Jovanni (01:00:45):
They're getting more aggressive, yes.

Anyways, I just wanted to make that.

Jovanni (01:00:50):
With the retreat comes the decay.
Oh, with the decay comes the retreat.
Okay yeah Rachel talked aboutthe bases that are still left.
And in Iraq, and right now Iraqparliament voted in Iraq a few years
ago that those bases got to go.
The bases are still there, and right nowthey're doing it again, they're telling
parliament in Iraq saying, you haveto leave, you have to pack and leave.

(01:01:13):
They're illegally, the Americanbases are illegally occupying Syria.
We just saw the saw a fewweeks ago with three American
soldiers were killed in Syria.
They said it was in Jordan, but therewas in Syria, that they were killed
because they're not supposed to be there.
But yeah so we've seenall this chaos happening.
And like I said, like Israel Jaypointed out Israel tactically.

(01:01:33):
Militarily, they're not getting whatthey want, they're losing a lot of guys,
they're losing a lot of people, andthey're losing credibility politically,
chaos, there's protests in Israel rightnow they're, against Netanyahu by the
families of those who have been captive,they're saying that, they're saying
that the Israeli government are usingtheir family member as chips, they're
using their family member as fodder,and they're protesting they're blocking

(01:01:55):
streets and everything, it's chaotic.
It's chaotic.
It's chaotic.
If there's any, if there's any silverlining to this by the end of the day,
the, the Zionist state of Israel willbe in the bin of history just like
Apartheid Africa is today, but yeah wecan go on talking about this, forever.
I just wanted to share something elsealso that, you know, from Australian

(01:02:16):
journalist, Caitlyn Johnston.
She commented I believe it was yesterday.
And a newsletter say, Aaron Bushnellwasn't addressing Israeli government
with his soldiering message.
He wasn't even addressinghis own government.
He was addressing you, each of us.
His goal was to get us all open oureyes to the horrors of what's happening

(01:02:37):
and spur us to action to end it.
It's been 45 days.
Since the ethnic cleansing commenced inIsrael, or in Palestine, I want to stop
saying Israel, Occupy Palestine it'sbeen 45 days since the ethnic cleansing
and genocide has been happening in bothGaza and the West Bank and Jerusalem 48.

(01:02:57):
What, what are you guysseeing in the global, what
are you guys seeing with this?
What are you guys feelings on this andwhere do you guys think we're heading?

Keagan (01:03:05):
I think I've been watching a lot of YouTube and I have this guy that I like
that did a really good video on, he calledit, it's called the era of war crime
influencers and they're talking about.
The Israeli soldiers that are goingon social media and posting everything
that they're doing, and the it would,it got so bad that the IDF had to

(01:03:28):
say, the commander had to say stopposting these videos, but, the problem
isn't just the videos alone, right?
It's the attitude that lets them thinkthat kind of stuff is normal and okay,
and The video does a good job of goinginto that about the fact that like the
realm of acceptable behavior is likefor the IDF has always been big like

(01:03:54):
way it's always been like dehumanizingfor the people and so it's just these
videos are just evidence of that.
And it just, it makes me really sad tosee that the fact that they don't, I don't
think that they don't see the civiliansor they make the calculation that if we

(01:04:14):
kill one person that we think is Hamasand 25, 50 civilians, It doesn't matter
because we got the person that we got.
And I think that's just I don't know.
I don't know why they continue to do it,but but showing these videos and showing
what they're doing is, hopefully gettingmore people to realize wait a minute.

(01:04:34):
They don't see whatthey're doing is wrong.
And in fact, they're celebrating it.
And they're celebrating the factthat they feel like, oh we're going
to turn Goblin into a parking lot.
We're going to, sweep away all thesebuildings and people come settle here.
That's people have said that.
And I just don't understand why morepeople in America aren't mad about that.

(01:04:55):
They aren't mad that, this, thatthis is being done with our money.
And if we wanted to, we couldturn off the tap to right now.
And then they wouldn'tbe able to do anything.
Like you said, Jovanni, theywouldn't be able to do anything.
And there just has to be morepeople calling for a ceasefire,
calling for us to stop funding this.

Yeah.
So Aaron stated, this is what ourruling class has decided will be normal.
I don't find anything controversialwith that statement whatsoever.
I agree with it 100%.
And then Caitlin asks in what you justread, Jovanni or not asked, but basically
states His goal was to get us all toopen our eyes to the horror of what's

(01:05:36):
happening and spur us to action to end it.
And I think the difficultyis that we don't know where
the bottom is to this thing.
We don't know where, we don'tknow where like, how depraved,
like, how depraved doesour country have to become?

(01:05:58):
How undemocratic does it have tobecome in the face of overwhelming
opposition to anything?
This too the funding of genocide too,the support of genocide, the Everything
but just anything that, that any workingclass people want like the, this is such

(01:06:21):
a sham of democracy and everyone knows it.
I don't have the numbers in front ofme, but presidents never have support
over 40 percent anymore, really exceptfor maybe the day after they're elected.
Congress can win.
Consistently what like has10 to 15 percent legitimacy
among the American people.
We do not believe in our allegeddemocratic institutions from people that

(01:06:44):
basically tell us we're the greatestdemocracy in the history of the world.
Studies show that people likethe opinion of the people has no
bearing on policy in this country.
So we don't know where thebottom of this barrel is.
We don't know how far down this allgoes Caitlyn's comment, Caitlyn's
statement, spur us to action to end it.

(01:07:05):
We don't know what this takes, and I don'tthink Aaron had a clue what this takes.
I think Aaron got frustrated andfed up with trying to figure out the
bottom, and says Fuck, I don't know.
Will this matter?
I hope it matter.
It better fucking matter becausethis is everything I have.
This is literally everything I have.
We've set the parameters fromliterally doing nothing or

(01:07:28):
whatever to giving everything.
Literally giving everything and beingclear and concise in what you're giving.
I, and I don't think I know the answerto the spurs to action to end it.
It's such a, it's such an, it'ssuch an interesting statement.

(01:07:49):
I don't know what action willend this, but I do know we have
a historical responsibility.
We have a responsibility to the worldin the belly of the beast, as we like to
say in the core of the of imperialism,the core of the violence that is
inflicting the entirety of the world.
Have a responsibility to collectivelybuild, with courage and and with

(01:08:15):
resilience to we figure it out,figure out exactly how far we have to
take this shit to make this all end.
I don't know how far that goes, butit's our responsibility, living in this
society, that speaks in our name, thatwe know for a fact, that even the people

(01:08:36):
that we're not seeing in the streets atPalestine Actions, and so on, we know they
don't think this shit's legitimate either.
The ruling class's own pollingsays it, the voting numbers say it.
In San Antonio, you might get anywherefrom 7 to 15 percent of people voting
in a local election, the people,regardless of what media, regardless

(01:08:57):
of what politicians, regardlessof what any nonprofits tell us,
the people know that this thing,this whole thing is illegitimate.
So how do we build something that, thatputs the pressure on to make sure that
that we end such horrors abroad andhelp ourselves at the exact same time?
Because that's literally what this is.
The more that they feel emboldenedto oppress people elsewhere,

(01:09:20):
the more they feel emboldenedto oppress us here at home.
Our futures are completely intertwined.
And the more that we can come to thatrecognition, start organizing around
shared struggles in our workplace,in our neighborhoods, in our cities,
in our counties, states, nations,and internationally, the better off

(01:09:42):
we're going to be and the strongermovements we're going to have.
We're going to be able to build and putpressure on exactly those things that
both Aaron was calling out and thatCaitlin's calling out in this statement.

Rachell Tucker (01:09:56):
Go ahead.
No, I was just going to say awesome.
No I like agree completely.
And I was going to say a lot of thosethings, cause I wrote down like the
question, what goes into ending it?
Just like you were talking about Jake.
And I wanted to bring up the quote, right?
If Gaza dies, we all die and the wholechant by the millions, by the billions,

(01:10:17):
we're all Palestinians, it's, it isour interconnected struggle, right?
And Jake was saying, the legitimacyof the United States worldwide has
plummeted, has been plummeting forDecades, and especially now and so what
does that mean for the United States?
And it means it's a it's a beastthat's lashing out and it's lashing

(01:10:42):
out internationally and it's lashingout towards its own people by
basically using all of our resources.
To maintain it, the little legitimacyit has around the world through war.
And and it's, here in San Antoniohalf of, more than half of the
city budget is going to SAPD andjust quote unquote, public safety.

(01:11:04):
And while the actual safety nets ofour people have been erased portable
housing, healthcare, all the basicneeds, and where I see it going is, and,
thanks to Aaron and his great sacrificeis You know, putting all of the issues
that, organizations and groups haveagainst each other on the left and in

(01:11:29):
all the spectrums away and uniting toactually fight this fight that we need
to be united to fight because It'sagainst the, like we were just talking
about, the belly of the beast, right?
It's against an insane world powerthat all it uses is violence.
And the more united that we are inthis collective struggle, because

(01:11:52):
it's, it, the people of Palestine haveshowed us every day their courage.
They've shown us every day, even thoughtheir loved ones have been dying.
I've been murdered for decades they'vebeen showing us the way to victory, right?
And we have to learn from them,we have to learn how to organize.
And have to learn how to be selfsufficient and push forward and

(01:12:19):
be bold with our actions, right?
March 2nd, there's gonna, it's aninternational day of solidarity with Rafa.
Find your protest on March2nd, join it join organizations
and just do all that you can.
To, not just for for Palestine, butto end imperialism once and for all.

Jovanni (01:12:43):
And Rafah is that just for listeners, I know Rafah is southern Gaza
that borders with the Sinai Peninsulaof Egypt, where the Israeli early on
said, told the Palestinian people togo because that would be a safe zone.
For them to abandon the north, toabandon the center, and just go to
Rafa, which is roughly almost 2 millionpeople there right now in Ten City,

(01:13:07):
and now the Israelis are threateningto invade it, to invade Rafa as well.
So yes.
On that note, I think this is a goodplace for us to wrap up for tonight.
Thank you so much for your, forcoming to the show and sharing
your time and thoughts with us.
Any last comments before we depart?

Rachell Tucker (01:13:24):
Thank you so much for having us and keep housing.

Be Palestine.

Keagan (01:13:29):
Thank you so much for having us.
Thanks.
Be Palestine.

Jovanni (01:13:34):
Be Palestine.
All right, thank you allfor joining us tonight.
I hope to see you guys again.
Please follow us in our social media andTwitter, Facebook, YouTube, Telegram.
Hit share on Facebook andshare us with your friends.
Take care.

Henri (01:13:53):
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A Revolutionary Act of Protest: Aaron Bushnell and the American empire – Ep 155

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}A Revolutionary Act of Protest: Aaron Bushnell and the American empire – Ep 155