March 7, 2024 • 45 mins
Jovanni sits down with independent journalist Olesya Orlenko, a Russian historian, who provides on-the-ground perspectives from Donetsk in eastern Ukraine. They discuss the roots of the conflict tracing back to the 2014 coup in Ukraine, the role of Western media in shaping narratives, and the views from both Russian and Ukrainian sides.
Olesya Orlenko is a Russian historian, researcher, and reporter. She studied at the Institute of Russian and Archive in Russia, History Archive Russia, and at the National Charter School in France. Her interest includes World War II, Nazi genocide and extermination policy, history of the far right movement, and theories in France.
Since 2014, Melissa has been closely following events in the Donbass province and has traveled to the war zone several times to gather facts of crimes committed by the Ukrainian army [00:03:00] against the inhabitants of the UNESCO and Lugansk regions. She became a journalist in 2016 and has been reporting on such facts since.
Olesya is an author, documentarian, and founder of the Russian Society of Friends of L’Humanité, a French left wing newspaper.
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Episode Transcript
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Don (00:12):
This is Fortress On A Hill, with Henri, Kaygan, Jo
vonni, Shiloh, and Monisha
Jovanni (00:16):
Welcome everyone to Fortress On A Hill, a podcast about US foreign
policy, anti imperialism, skepticism,and the American way of war..
I'm Jovanni.
Thank you for being with us today.
Most Americans will remember the warhappening in Eastern Europe starting
on February 24, 2022, when RussianPresident Vladimir Putin announced
the special military operationsand the intervention in Ukraine.
(00:40):
Back then, there was an uproarin Western society and Western
media went into hysteria.
Huge condemnations from NATOcountries and their close allies.
It was described as agrievance of crimes, the worst.
This was naked Russian aggression notseen in Europe since the Second World War.
Forgetting that, two decades earlier,Nader set the former Yugoslavia on fire,
(01:03):
causing the dismemberment of the country,and that they themselves have been waging
war and bombing multiple Muslim majoritycountries for the last two decades.
There was a new Hitler inEurope, and his name was Vladimir
Putin, was the Western outcry.
All of a sudden, everythingin Russia, everything Russian
was cancelled in the West.
Russophobia was at its highest.
(01:23):
Now, if you remember the war startingtwo years ago, that's because the U.
S.
and Western media, let's call it theNATO media, has been sure to keep you
thinking this war started two yearsago out of a vacuum with no context.
The way the media constructed thenarrative is that Ukraine was minding its
own business and peace when Putin all of asudden decided to invade just for funsies.
(01:45):
Most Americans would be unaware.
The Kiev had already been at war forthe last nine years against its Russian
speaking population in the eastern regioncalled the Donbass and against other
Ukro Russian inhabitants in the area.
The catalyst for this war was theCIA NATO 2014 engineered coup in Kiev
(02:05):
which used the Euromaidan protests asa cover to facilitate the seizure of
power by ultra right wing and neo Nazielements and militias such as the Right
Sector and other bandit right factions.
Here to tell us more, I'mhonored to introduce our guest.
All the way from Moscow is Olesya Orlenko.
(02:27):
Olesya is a Russian historian,researcher, and reporter.
She studied at the Institute ofRussian and Archive in Russia,
History Archive Russia, and at theNational Charter School in France.
Her interest includes World WarII, Nazi genocide and extermination
policy, history of the far rightmovement, and theories in France.
(02:49):
Since 2014, Melissa has been closelyfollowing events in the Donbass
province and has traveled to the warzone several times to gather facts
of crimes committed by the Ukrainianarmy against the inhabitants of
the UNESCO and Lugansk regions.
She became a journalist in 2016 andhas been reporting on such facts since.
Olesya is an author, documentarian,and founder of the Russian
(03:12):
Society of Friends of L'Humanité,a French left wing newspaper.
Welcome to the show, Olesya.
Olesya Orlenko (03:18):
Hello, thank you.
Thank you for inviting me.
Jovanni (03:21):
Olesya please tell us a little bit about yourself, where you're from,
and what brought you to your interests.
Olesya Orlenko (03:27):
Firstly, as you, as you have already mentioned, I was
working as historian and, I thinkI'm telling this story all the time
when I'm speaking about the Donbas.
The events that happen now, for me, theyare directly related with my interest
(03:47):
and my occupation as a historian.
I was working in different historicalresearch projects, and one of them, which
was very interesting, lasted many years.
I was collecting the memories.
I was recording the eyewitnesses of Nazigenocide, uh, in, uh, Soviet Russia,
(04:09):
Soviet Belorussia, Soviet Latvia,people who are still living there.
Uh, it was, uh, the special, uh, areaof Nazi extermination policy where,
uh, many villages were entirelydestroyed and the population, killed
or, sent to the concentration camps.
(04:30):
And as it was, uh, twenty nine, twentyten, twenty eleven, two thousand nine,
two thousand ten, two thousand elevenyears, so it was Long time ago, we
could still find, uh, those who werechildren at the time, of World War ii.
People who, uh, had 10 years,nine years, um, at this time.
(04:53):
And, uh, we made, uh, quite interestingwork with a lot of recordings.
Many, uh.
Thousands of, uh, interviews,of course, I wasn't alone.
I was with my colleagues and, uh,uh, we're, uh, spending all summer
actually in, in those area, uh,by traveling village to village.
(05:18):
So very interesting work, very richand, uh, very important, I think.
When in 2014, uh, all this,those, those Maidan story and,
uh, the war in Donbass began?
I recognized when I was following thenews and when I was speaking with the
people who lives there, people I knowwho lives in Donetsk, what they were
(05:41):
talking, how they were describing whathappens, I really recognized, I've
had a really deja vu, uh, feeling.
Uh, I heard this before from differentpersons and about different time.
But for me, it was so obviouslythat history repeating.
(06:01):
And I started to do the samething that I done some years ago.
Uh, I started to Record theinformation about what happens.
So, making a list of facts.
And me and some colleagues of mine, uh,we start, we started doing this work.
Well, it was like, just for ourselves,it wasn't the institution or something.
(06:26):
So, we just made, started to make this,and then we We created the Facebook
page, but of course it's not an officialorganization, just a Facebook page for
fix and to make reposts of some news.
It will disappear.
They're passing away, they'repassing away all the time.
Actually, in 2014, we were hopingthat it'll stop that, we haven't had
(06:50):
an idea that it will last for years,all this war and this confrontation.
We decided to proceedwith our, with our work.
We started to find otherpeople who could help us.
We started to findother people in Donetsk.
As I told you, I, uh, I've been inDonetsk in Soviet time as a child.
And I know people there, from there.
(07:12):
I know people who are the ageof my parents, and, they
had their children as well.
Some of them evacuated justat the beginning of the war
because it was very violent.
But some of them stayed there,so I could really, uh, get the
information directly from the place.
Uh, and as everything evaluated inthe bad sense of this word, I'm still
(07:40):
there, I'm still doing this kind ofjob, I'm still doing this kind of work,
but of course we now have our team.
Because since 2014 some of mycolleagues went away because it's
quite a pacifical occupation.
And actually these, those eventsbring me to the journalism.
(08:02):
Because I, I wanted to find thejournalists from the, uh, other countries
who share my views, my opinions.
And I found them, actually.
Uh, 2014, uh, 16, I found them.
And I was optimist at the time.
I was optimist.
I thought that, uh, reallysort of mobilization.
(08:23):
Uh, I mean, social, uh, activistmobilization would really, uh, contribute
to change, uh, things to better.
But, unfortunately, it wasn't andnow, after the beginning of special
operation, I'm going myself to, to theplace and even, even, uh, the special
operation, I, I spent, I, I was inDonetsk when special operation began.
(08:48):
I was with the French journalist there.
Of course, I didn't know that, uh,everything, uh, going to happen,
but, uh, I've seen how it was.
I came there in Donetsk to follow themobilization because if you remember
in the beginning of February, therewas a big mobilization and at the same
evacuation of civilians, because, all thistension in the border on the front line.
(09:13):
It was violated, the front lineand the agreement of stop fire.
I don't know how to say it,but it was violated many times.
So, uh, I think it was in the airthat, uh, something will, will happen.
And because of that the ceasefire.
Uh, and it was violated, and it wasin the air that something happened.
(09:35):
But of course we didn't expect to beat the middle of all those events.
Uh, and since then Icame, uh, several times.
Uh, in Donetsk, but, uh, whatI insist in my work is, uh,
always to record the civilians.
I'm not covering the, um, war, uh, eventsand I'm not covering the military issues.
(10:01):
Uh, what I'm doing is I'm alwayscoming to people, uh, who are always
victims, actually all the time and fromboth sides, victims are civilians.
And I'm talking with them,uh, and that's what I'm doing.
I'm standing always at thesame position as I was in 2014.
So, in, from, from this point of viewMy views didn't change, so I'm always
(10:27):
thinking what I thought 10 years andit's horrible, really sounds horrible.
And that's what I continue to do,even when everything will stop,
because in this, because the crimesagainst civilians, it's always.
Very vulnerable topic, uh, and oneof the most important for society,
(10:53):
all the time, no matter how muchtime passed from the events.
And the proof is that even now, the,uh, uh, the events of Second World War,
uh, are still harmful for some people.
For historical memory, for socialmemory, and, uh, you can say the same
(11:17):
thing from no matter which country.
Jovanni (11:19):
So you said you chronicle and the, um, what the civilians,
uh, has been, uh, uh, experiencing.
And, uh, you write about that and you,uh, discuss and you talked about the
civilians and you, um, got there in 2014.
Uh, and you've been to Dunes and Luhanarea since the, uh, specialty operation.
(11:44):
Can you, can you describe what thecivilians were telling you back then
and what they're telling you now?
If anything has changed, if it'sthe same, if it's gotten better?
Olesya Orlenko (11:51):
Well, uh, it's, it's actually, yes, uh, they, they have changed
their views, of course, but I mean, uh,I'll explain to you why I'm saying this.
Um.
Uh, I think that everybody now, uh, inmedia and it's very present is this,
uh, uh, this, uh, uh, rhetoric that,uh, East Ukraine, Eastern Ukraine is
(12:14):
pro Russian, it's more, uh, uh, Russianspeakers and, uh, uh, the, the area
with, uh, with a special, uh, historyconnected very much with, uh, Russia
since, uh, Uh, centuries and the, uh,uh, Western Ukrainian and contrary,
it's like, you know, uh, uh, more,the language is, uh, more similar with
(12:39):
Polish language and, uh, the territorywere, in Poland during many years.
I can tell you that Donetsk, well, inmy, uh, opinion, as I remember this
in Soviet time, and as I know it now,perhaps I'm wrong, but I'm telling
you my, uh, view of this region.
(13:02):
It's absolutely a double speaking region.
Even between my friends.
I, I can tell you that even they speakif they speak Russian in bilingual.
Yeah, they are bilingual.
Uh, and if they speak Russian, uh, uh,in their family, they are absolutely.
capable to speak Ukrainian.
(13:22):
Uh, I can tell you more.
I can tell you that, uh, some ofmy friends and my comrades, uh, uh,
who came in Donetsk or in region,uh, in the families came there,
living there since 19th century.
They were, uh, Learning at Ukrainianschools, but they speak perfectly
(13:48):
Russian without any accent, youknow, so a lot, a lot of people
there, uh, are, uh, bilingual.
And, uh, I'm not saying of course, it'seven in the cities and, and I, I'm not
saying, I'm not saying in villages becauseif you come in village, of course you
will see, you will hear all this mix ofRussian, Ukrainian, uh, and very, very
(14:15):
different, uh, languages and uh hmm.
Uh, special vocabulary, whichyou cannot find anywhere else.
So it's very, very interesting fromthis point of view, from a sociological
and ethnological point of view.
But This confrontation.
So I cannot say tell you that in two,2014, and people, I'm, and I'm asking
(14:39):
them why they, for example, were inanti Maidan, uh, in 2014 in esque, uh,
they won't tell you that we are notwant, we don't want to be in Ukraine,
or we don't want to speak Ukrainian.
No.
They are speaking Ukrainian.
The problem is the, the, uh, the issueis always, uh, political choice, as
(15:03):
people understand, because, you know,the political choice is when you say
this, you should understand that thepolitician who will sign the agreements
or, who will talk with the, uh, leadersof other country and the The person who
lives in Donetsk going to work at the,uh, I don't know, at the factory or,
(15:24):
no matter, or who lives in a village.
They have the different understandingof this political choice.
How it was explained to thesepeople because, that's always
the matter of the state.
To keep the country together, you reallyneed to make all citizens to understand
that they are citizens of this country.
And I think that 2014 is a bigfailure of the Ukrainian state.
(15:48):
I mean, this failure didn't occurin 2014 because it's the consequence
of the previous evolution.
In 2014, it was the sign that theUkrainian state made a big mistake
before, and it's not capableto keep the country together.
(16:08):
If you hear what people weresaying in 2014, the problem is not
what they were thinking about theKiev war, about the government.
But when people saw that there is anarmy People from Donetsk or, I don't
know, in Slavyansk, for example, thatpeople from Slavyansk, when they saw
that the army, the citizens of thesame country, they speak in the same
(16:31):
language, uh, when they come to shootthem, when the first blood started
to appear and the civil war started.
Was operated in Kyiv.
' cause Kyiv made a choice tokeep the country together.
The government made thechoice to start the Civil War.
So this choice, made areally split between.
(16:54):
Between Ukraine and people from Donbasand, Logan areas, territories, uh, they,
they, they started the split, startedthere from there, from the Civil War.
And 2014 I really heard, voices.
That we need to stop it, weneed to stop fire, we need
(17:14):
really to find another solution.
In 2022, when I came there, thediscourse has absolutely changed.
In this case, the discourse ofpeople, when you go to the magazine,
to the street and they stop people.
When I talked to them, they, theyare saying that I don't want to be
And Many friends of mine say thatUkraine killed Ukrainian in me, so I
(17:36):
don't want, I cannot be in this state,so their political choice, uh, were
determined by the policy of Kiev.
That's what they say, that'swhy, that's why when it was the
referendum, our colleagues followedreally very much this referendum.
I think this referendum Uh, about theself determination and about to enter
in Russian, uh, in Russia, to enterin Russia in September, uh, of 2022.
(18:01):
I think it was really fair, it maybeit sounds for those who listen to
us, uh, unacceptable, but it's reallyfair because I Met all the time.
I haven't ever met in, in, inmy displacement in, in Luhansk
I haven't ever met, someone whocan say that, no, I don't agree.
I don't want to be in Russia.
So all of them were dreaming aboutRussia because they had their reasons.
(18:26):
People was thinking that it'll resolve.
The problem and they, uh, helpthem, uh, in their situation.
They were during eight years in a very,in, in a humanitarian catastrophic,
and of course, only, solutionthey seen, the russian choice.
So.
I think that instead of resolving theproblem, the Ukrainian government
(18:49):
choice to make, things worse.
And, as well the bigfailure of the Ukraine.
Many people I know in 201415, uh, they were trying to
leave the, area of combatants.
And they, uh, they, they wantedto evacuate it somewhere.
And, uh, many of them choose Ukraine.
(19:10):
They moved to Ukraine, I mean tothe central or east Ukraine to
avoid the danger and they cameback because they were accepted.
Where with the, the, they, they didn'tfail themselves as in their country.
They felt better In Crimea or, orin Rosol, uh, region or in Russia?
(19:33):
Many of them left the central and easternUkraine and moved back, in the East.
, of course they are they are peoplewho, uh, evacuated and who made
the choice to stay in Ukraine.
I keep in contact with some of them.
And I'm keeping in contactwith my Ukrainian friends and,
comrades who are still in Ukraine.
(19:53):
But their situation is , very complicated.
Some of them, uh, stayed in Ukrainebecause they couldn't leave.
Now they are hiding from the mobilization.
Anyway, the situation, isvery hard, as they describe it.
And some of my friends are nowin Ukrainians, Ukrainian prisons,
(20:16):
and with some of them we reallyI can hardly communicate because
two years now, they are in prison.
Jovanni (20:25):
So know that, um, in 2014, after the coup, um, the, the The anti
Russian sentiments, right, reallyintensified in Western Ukraine.
Um, you started seeing, um, attacksagainst the Russian identity in Ukraine.
You started seeing, people, politicians,political parties being, um, cancelled
(20:50):
or prohibited because they werethought to be too close to Russia.
Uh, the Russian OrthodoxChurch was shut down.
, there were ban on bookson Russian language.
You saw trade unionists in Odessa,for example, they barricaded
themselves in their office buildingand a mob, an anti Russian mob,
pretty much, um, set the buildingon fire and killing all 80 of them.
(21:12):
Um, Crimea rapidly conducted areferendum with the majority voting to
secede from Ukraine and join Russia.
Russia conceded and annexed the peninsula.
The people of Donbass did the same.
However, Russia did not annex them.
What do you think, what do youthink that, uh, that happened?
Olesya Orlenko (21:33):
Those anti-Russian anti-Russian anti-Russian, uh,
sentiments in, uh, Western Ukraine.
You know, I faced them, uh,even, uh, when I was a child.
It's not something thatappeared 10 years ago.
Uh, I, uh, was born in, uh, 1981 andmy family, uh, was half Ukrainian.
(21:58):
And you can see my name and my, uh, familyname are Ukrainians and my grandfather.
Uh, was from, uh, the Western Ukraineand, uh, so I can tell you that,
uh, he was born in Poland becauseit was at the moment when he was
born it was, uh, Polish territory.
(22:19):
And I can tell you that in this part of myfamily, the nationalism was very strong.
And in Soviet time, especially in Moscow,you know, and he was military, and it
wasn't exposed too much, you know, itwasn't the topic of family conversation.
(22:39):
But I really, I do remember, uh, the antiSemitic nationalist, speech phrases I
didn't make any attention to this, but Iremember that it was really the reason,
um, the reason of the confrontationwith my mother and father sometimes.
(23:01):
Um, although they were,uh, uh, young as well.
What I'm saying the, people like the,the extremists, the nationalists, the
radicals, they are existing in, uh,all country and, uh, uh, all the time.
How influenced they become in the country.
(23:22):
So it's like criminals,they can say that in a way.
Everywhere where there is a human society,there are deviations and there will be
criminals or, I don't know, fake people.
But if you, the question is if youallow them to make decisions, if you
allow them to influence the others.
Uh, I'm not thinking that West Ukraine iscompletely anti Russian, they are only a
(23:49):
racist who lives there and now it's not.
Uh, I was in Lviv, I was, uh, inWestern Ukraine and I've seen.
Of course, I've seen both.
I've seen, uh, the, really, the racist,but at the same time, I've seen very
intelligent, smart people, uh, and I don'tknow how they're living now, because,
(24:14):
uh, they are afraid to contact someone,uh, in Russia, it was, uh, Since the
beginning of the, of the war, uh, since,uh, 2014, they stopped contact with me.
The problem is the minorityof this radical minority.
They are now access there to education,they can influence the society, they
(24:36):
have all freedom to express their ideas,
the opportunities to express the oppositeopinion are very, very, very wide.
It's not natural conflict, there werea lot of possibility, opportunities to
avoid this conflict, to resolve it then.
And even when the special operationbegan, there was still time, while we
(25:00):
could, I mean, people from the society.
The international community couldreally introduce an influence to stop
the violence, but we are observing,I'm observing since 2014, even earlier,
but let's take 2014, when I'm Theone opportunity after another is lost
(25:23):
when one red line crossed, anotherone extended and then crossed again.
So now I can, now the reality, Iremember that two years ago, I was
reading the articles and the politicalsay, it was saying from France, from
US, from, was saying that no, this isa red line, uh, we couldn't cross it.
(25:45):
But now, look, two years, have passedand we've seen that all red lines, of
two years ago, now they are passed away.
What else?
What we're doing?
What we're doing again?
So, is there any real redline which we cannot cross?
(26:08):
If we're talking about Crimea, it wasvery, uh, interesting particular region,
but it was very from strategical pointof view, very, very important for Russia.
I think that this conflict, uh, whenI'm talking about the Ukraine, but of
course, Uh, the, the relations in thepost Soviet space, depended as well from
(26:32):
Russia and for Russia it is important.
The failure as well since thecollapse of the Soviet Union.
One failure for afteranother for, for Russia.
Everything started from the war.
It's just, uh, if you see Sochi,uh, and it was, it's just,
uh, very, very new to Sochi.
You, you, you take two hours maximumfor to go there, uh, by train.
(26:56):
Uh, and I, I, I visited, uh,Apia as a journalist as well.
Uh, I've seen.
It's really a disaster.
It's a disaster.
It's an absolutely abandoned,very, very rich region.
But I've seen those, the entire city, theghost city, you know, the entire city.
(27:20):
You could see the buildings.
You can also see the tracesof the war who ended.
30 years ago, you still can seethe, uh, the traces of fires,
of destroyed buildings, and thecity, the whole city is abandoned.
It's, uh, hallucinating, it's amazing,I mean, in a bad sense of this word.
(27:43):
Uh, even there, about, I've seenthat about 9 or 10 persons still
live there, of course, the old ones.
I really, uh Of course it, uh, itwasn't the first war, but I mean,
for the first war, for after thecollapse of the Soviet Union.
And then you can see two wars inChechnya, it was really a civil war
(28:07):
caused by the policy of Russia, but,uh, uh, as well because of the failure
of, political failure of Russia,political failure of government.
Actually, that's why I don't know, I don'tknow, uh, if it is, uh, if I'm discovering
something for your audience, but one ofthe reason of popularity of Putin, because
he came and he was the, the only personwho could stop this conflict in Chechnya.
(28:31):
And it was his first political successand it was really, uh, it brought
him really a lot of electoral voicesand a lot of popularity in Russia.
Because, uh, before we were thinkingthat this war is unstoppable,
(28:54):
it's impossible to stop.
As they are telling now about the war inUkraine, you know, I was in Chechnya, just
a small visit of three days, I've seenGrozny, I remember because I was learning
at the school and then you University.
(29:16):
I remember after the bombing.
It was like, the city was, uh, complete,almost, completely raised grossly.
But now if you go there, you cannotfind any, uh, traces of, of the war.
It's absolutely new, but.
You come there, you won'tsay how it looked like.
Jovanni (29:31):
You mentioned about Chechnya and people thinking that Chechnya was going to
be an indefinite war that would never end.
Do you, is that the sentiment inRussia right now with the Ukrainian
war that it would never end?
Olesya Orlenko (29:41):
Well, not in Russia.
I think that in Russia, the perceptionof, of what happens of special operations,
the perception of what happens inDonetsk, it's absolutely different.
It's quite different.
Uh, in Donetsk and in Moscow.
When you are in Moscow, you really,uh, you will see the, the, the, the
city of, uh, peaceful city, uh, peopleliving, uh, uh, there are a lot of
(30:07):
distractions, uh, going to restaurants,uh, celebrating, uh, et cetera, et cetera.
Uh, of course, in Donetsk, it's different.
And, uh, uh, that's why when peoplefrom Donetsk come in Moscow, they say
that we have an impression that weare, well, that it's really, that it's
not real what happens there back home.
(30:28):
Yeah, but, you know, of course, there isa sort of depression in many regions of
Donetsk, uh, for, uh, To be, to look atthe future, people need this stability and
when, for example, Donetsk, the bombingof Donetsk never stopped since 2014.
(30:52):
Never stopped.
Every day.
I mean, of course, the damagewas different, but every day
they were bombing Donetsk.
Not a single day stopped.
Uh, and that's why, for example,in the city, they, uh, are no,
they new buildings, don't they,they don't construction new
(31:13):
buildings, new apartments, orbecause they could be destroyed.
Nobody want to startthe construction there.
But for example, in Mariupol, I wasin Mariupol, uh, when it was just.
when the, the Ukrainians went away,even I was even there when, still
as of style, uh, uh, were fighting.
(31:34):
It was just at the moment whereit was, coming to the end.
But I've seen the city,I've seen this road.
I, I've seen everything that couldbe in the cities, in this state,
and when I came my last time andI came there, it has changed.
Even if there are a lot of buildingsdestroyed and you could still
see the traces of destruction,but still see the changes.
(32:00):
And I can tell you that, Itinfluenced the population.
I don't know, I mean, I'm notsaying that people forgot everything
and now they are happy there.
Of course, this period, it wasvery, it was a real catastrophe.
When people see the changes for better,uh, it's, it's really influence.
(32:20):
But in Donetsk, for example,they don't see these changes.
I mean, they see a lot of changes,political changes, I mean.
And, of course, the situation,uh, changed in the matter of
that the Now they can earn money.
They can work and get their salary.
They can get the, uh, payment forretreatment for the, the pension or,
the infrastructure started to work, soit's the reality, but still for them,
(32:46):
of course, the changement will be whenthe violence and the combats will stop.
And that is what they're waiting for.
And I can tell you that a lot of them arereally tired of this situation because
10 years, imagine, 10 years and this.
Jovanni (33:03):
Situation.
Hopefully, hopefully end soon.
Recently, here in the United States, um,like I mentioned earlier, the, the years
prior to 2022, uh, didn't exist, right?
Everything happened in a vacuum.
Since 2022, Washington has pouredbillions, hundreds of billions
(33:25):
of dollars into this war.
The European Union, Germany.
Et cetera, right, to keep it going.
Recently there was a bill,there's a bill going on right now.
That the Democrats here wants topush political division here in the
United States with the Republicanswanting to defund the war in Ukraine.
And they'd rather fund more thewar in Israel, they'd rather fund.
(33:48):
Conflict in with China and Taiwan,they'd rather fund those, but they want
to defund the war in Ukraine, whereas theDemocrat wants to continue funding it.
So there's this fight in Congressright now but it's still, the media
is still presenting this, thisconflict as a Ukrainian Russian war.
The West has nothing to do with it.
They give life to it because offunding and the billions of weapons.
(34:10):
You weapons that goes into this war.
Do Russians see it the same way?
Does see it as a, justa Ukrainian Russian war?
Olesya Orlenko (34:16):
Oh, no, of course not.
Of course not.
In Russia, this conflict is viewedas a war of western countries.
And I can tell you evenin Russia, there is a.
Tendency to see the Ukraine as a victim,I mean, the Ukrainians, not the Ukraine
as the, the government, because, butthe Ukrainian people viewed in Russia
(34:39):
as a victim of of the policy, Westernpolicy, United States, of course.
And of course this, this, uh, view is,represented the idea to simplify things.
Of course, uh, you cannot, designone as a bad person, bad actor,
and another as a good doctor.
Of course, all those conflicts, and Imean, not only Russian, and Ukrainian,
(35:02):
but, I mean a lot of war that existnow in the modern war is because the
diplomatic and political, uh, solutionof problem could not be found and
it, it cannot be found because of theincompetence of political, establishment.
I think that of course western countriesare, it's not far for, from, from, call
(35:25):
them direct, actors of the conflict,because it's not only the matter of,
of money, financial support of thismilitary, uh, escalation and, uh,
combats, but the arms that, uh, theydeliver to, uh, Ukraine, the arms
that can attack Russia with thesearms, so it's, it's, it's a dead, but
(35:47):
Russia, of course, Russia, uh, may aswell prevent as well, this red line.
This is extended fromthe Russian part as well.
But, I think we are very closeto the direct implementation
in the United States.
This conflict of Western countries inany way now, even I see some of voices
(36:09):
from one of our European countriessaying that Ukraine will last the war,
uh, Putin can win, et cetera, et cetera.
But, All this, they are sayingthis not to stop with the conflict,
but to prepare for a bigger one.
And we can see, uh, in Germany, inFrance, the rhetoric is political.
(36:31):
Now that I'm starting to hear it,that you really should prepare
to the attacks from Russia.
But, and, uh, we should restore the,for example, in France, it's very Big
problem the police and, uh, the army,the status of military, men in the
army is not very high in French society.
(36:52):
And now Macron says that we need torestore entrainment for teenagers, we
need to restore the prestige of our army.
So they are started to talk about that.
And at the same time, they are sayingthat, Russia is is going to invade Europe.
As a historian, I can recognizeabsolutely, it's not the clichés, even
(37:14):
the the phrases, the whole phrases, theywere used even in 16th century when Russia
firstly appeared in European field, inEuropean view, and all those Cliche,
they coming from, from the at time.
So why, why I'm saying this.
I, I want to tell that for really, for,for to stop, uh, the, these conflicts,
(37:37):
you really, you really should have anintention to stop with the escalation.
But for that, all actors and, Europeansand the USA government, they should,
they should absolutely change the,vector, you know, of the policy.
Like, when I was, I was explaining, Iwas talking about my French friend, and
(38:01):
he asked me, how can you, what you'reproposing now, what now, February of 2024.
For to stop, uh, forto resolve the problem.
And I was saying thatit was really very hard.
It was hard two years ago, but twoyears ago it was still possible.
But now, I mean, it'sharder than two years ago.
(38:23):
But still, I think still possible.
But for that, you really should, acceptpart of responsibility for what happens.
So, USA and France, for example, shouldstop denying that they are in conflict.
Firstly, they should accept and recognizethat they are contributing a lot for the
(38:46):
stabilization of the situation in Europe.
In post Soviet Union and Ukraine,et cetera, the same for U.
S.
A., of course.
So they should really stop and reallygo, from there and really to the data
should go from this area, completely.
And There are other actors to introducethe independent, to introduce and to
(39:08):
control the situation, like for exampleCuba or Venezuela, but do France or United
States, will they ever accept That Cubawill contribute to resolve this conflict?
No, of course not, because for thatthe United States should really
change their position towards Cuba.
But if the United States, forexample, changed their position
(39:32):
towards Cuba, perhaps it will move.
And the problem is that it's not only theconflict in Ukraine that matters, but,
now this conflict in Israel and Gaza.
It's a different conflict, but itcomes in the same situation of
destabilization and Of denial.
It is the failure of international laws.
(39:53):
The international justice is the onlyway to resolve, no matter which country.
If the international justicedoesn't work in one case, it
means that it doesn't work.
I mean, not a mistake, but theinternational justice have
no right to be selective.
Not once, because to be selective once,it means to be selective every time.
So, it should be the same for everybody,no matter of political ideology, it
(40:16):
should be the same for North Korea,for Cuba, for United States, for
Russia, for Ukraine, and for France.
I think it's the only way.
Jovanni (40:22):
Absolutely.
Well, I think this is a goodplace for us to wrap it up.
Um, Olesya, thank you so much for comingon the show and sharing your time,
um, thoughts and experiences on this.
Um, any last comment before we part?
Olesya Orlenko (40:37):
No, thanks, thanks a lot.
Thank you for your patience.
Jovanni (40:40):
What do you, what do you recommend to an audience to learn
more about the situation in Dombas?
What resources do you recommend?
Olesya Orlenko (40:46):
I think that it's very important, to get the information from
different resources, from different,point of view, when you have a conflict
and, uh, when you have, people in mediawho cover this, this conflict, there's
always a tendency to, uh, take part.
And of course, there are alot of medias and or bloggers
or uh, uh, journalists who.
(41:07):
are taking part, uh, Russian part,Donetsk part, and I can tell you
that I'm taking part as well.
I am always from on the side of civilians,civilian population, and I was there, I
was standing there, and I'm always lookingfrom the point of view of a simple person,
not a military one, it's always a victim,but you really, what I can Really, the
(41:33):
advice to your audience is not to beafraid of media qualified as pro Russian
ones, so even if you think that this isKremlin propaganda, take your time to read
what they are reading, take your time toanalyze and read Compare the information
(41:54):
from other sources and, I mean, not withthe aim to say, ah, I'm, I will find,
uh, something for to, uh, for to lookthe arguments against what you're saying.
No, try to, to understand whypeople writing this, Don't be
like, you know, like in France, forexample, they forbided the Russian
(42:15):
channels, information channels.
Uh, and France, it's the, thecountry of the freedom of speech.
And you can see that they are abidingthe presence of Russian channels.
I'm not trying to, uh, defend, forexample, Russia today now, uh, but
I can tell you for ex, for example,in the, in the French example, that
(42:35):
one, it was the Yellow jackets.
Yellow jackets, yeah.
These movements, the protestmovements in France, uh.
The Russia Today was the only media whodidn't call those people terrorists,
bandits, lazy, or walkists, that's whythey were followed by French people, I
(42:57):
think you really should not be afraidof, of cliche and, to make your own
opinion , to listen to the informationand not influenced by the qualification
they, given to the, to the source of this.
Just try to think yourself, your own.
Jovanni (43:12):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Um, with that, uh, again, thank youagain for joining us and, um, let's
hope together that this conflictcomes to an end soon, right?
Take care.
Henri (43:26):
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Fortress On A Hill dot com.
Skepticism is one's best armor.
Never forget it.
We'll see you next time.
This is Fortress On A Hill, with Henri, Kaygan, Jo
vonni, Shiloh, and Monisha
Jovanni (00:16):
Welcome everyone to Fortress On A Hill, a podcast about US foreign
policy, anti imperialism, skepticism,and the American way of war..
I'm Jovanni.
Thank you for being with us today.
Most Americans will remember the warhappening in Eastern Europe starting
on February 24, 2022, when RussianPresident Vladimir Putin announced
the special military operationsand the intervention in Ukraine.
(00:40):
Back then, there was an uproarin Western society and Western
media went into hysteria.
Huge condemnations from NATOcountries and their close allies.
It was described as agrievance of crimes, the worst.
This was naked Russian aggression notseen in Europe since the Second World War.
Forgetting that, two decades earlier,Nader set the former Yugoslavia on fire,
(01:03):
causing the dismemberment of the country,and that they themselves have been waging
war and bombing multiple Muslim majoritycountries for the last two decades.
There was a new Hitler inEurope, and his name was Vladimir
Putin, was the Western outcry.
All of a sudden, everythingin Russia, everything Russian
was cancelled in the West.
Russophobia was at its highest.
(01:23):
Now, if you remember the war startingtwo years ago, that's because the U.
S.
and Western media, let's call it theNATO media, has been sure to keep you
thinking this war started two yearsago out of a vacuum with no context.
The way the media constructed thenarrative is that Ukraine was minding its
own business and peace when Putin all of asudden decided to invade just for funsies.
(01:45):
Most Americans would be unaware.
The Kiev had already been at war forthe last nine years against its Russian
speaking population in the eastern regioncalled the Donbass and against other
Ukro Russian inhabitants in the area.
The catalyst for this war was theCIA NATO 2014 engineered coup in Kiev
(02:05):
which used the Euromaidan protests asa cover to facilitate the seizure of
power by ultra right wing and neo Nazielements and militias such as the Right
Sector and other bandit right factions.
Here to tell us more, I'mhonored to introduce our guest.
All the way from Moscow is Olesya Orlenko.
(02:27):
Olesya is a Russian historian,researcher, and reporter.
She studied at the Institute ofRussian and Archive in Russia,
History Archive Russia, and at theNational Charter School in France.
Her interest includes World WarII, Nazi genocide and extermination
policy, history of the far rightmovement, and theories in France.
(02:49):
Since 2014, Melissa has been closelyfollowing events in the Donbass
province and has traveled to the warzone several times to gather facts
of crimes committed by the Ukrainianarmy against the inhabitants of
the UNESCO and Lugansk regions.
She became a journalist in 2016 andhas been reporting on such facts since.
Olesya is an author, documentarian,and founder of the Russian
(03:12):
Society of Friends of L'Humanité,a French left wing newspaper.
Welcome to the show, Olesya.
Olesya Orlenko (03:18):
Hello, thank you.
Thank you for inviting me.
Jovanni (03:21):
Olesya please tell us a little bit about yourself, where you're from,
and what brought you to your interests.
Olesya Orlenko (03:27):
Firstly, as you, as you have already mentioned, I was
working as historian and, I thinkI'm telling this story all the time
when I'm speaking about the Donbas.
The events that happen now, for me, theyare directly related with my interest
(03:47):
and my occupation as a historian.
I was working in different historicalresearch projects, and one of them, which
was very interesting, lasted many years.
I was collecting the memories.
I was recording the eyewitnesses of Nazigenocide, uh, in, uh, Soviet Russia,
(04:09):
Soviet Belorussia, Soviet Latvia,people who are still living there.
Uh, it was, uh, the special, uh, areaof Nazi extermination policy where,
uh, many villages were entirelydestroyed and the population, killed
or, sent to the concentration camps.
(04:30):
And as it was, uh, twenty nine, twentyten, twenty eleven, two thousand nine,
two thousand ten, two thousand elevenyears, so it was Long time ago, we
could still find, uh, those who werechildren at the time, of World War ii.
People who, uh, had 10 years,nine years, um, at this time.
(04:53):
And, uh, we made, uh, quite interestingwork with a lot of recordings.
Many, uh.
Thousands of, uh, interviews,of course, I wasn't alone.
I was with my colleagues and, uh,uh, we're, uh, spending all summer
actually in, in those area, uh,by traveling village to village.
(05:18):
So very interesting work, very richand, uh, very important, I think.
When in 2014, uh, all this,those, those Maidan story and,
uh, the war in Donbass began?
I recognized when I was following thenews and when I was speaking with the
people who lives there, people I knowwho lives in Donetsk, what they were
(05:41):
talking, how they were describing whathappens, I really recognized, I've
had a really deja vu, uh, feeling.
Uh, I heard this before from differentpersons and about different time.
But for me, it was so obviouslythat history repeating.
(06:01):
And I started to do the samething that I done some years ago.
Uh, I started to Record theinformation about what happens.
So, making a list of facts.
And me and some colleagues of mine, uh,we start, we started doing this work.
Well, it was like, just for ourselves,it wasn't the institution or something.
(06:26):
So, we just made, started to make this,and then we We created the Facebook
page, but of course it's not an officialorganization, just a Facebook page for
fix and to make reposts of some news.
It will disappear.
They're passing away, they'repassing away all the time.
Actually, in 2014, we were hopingthat it'll stop that, we haven't had
(06:50):
an idea that it will last for years,all this war and this confrontation.
We decided to proceedwith our, with our work.
We started to find otherpeople who could help us.
We started to findother people in Donetsk.
As I told you, I, uh, I've been inDonetsk in Soviet time as a child.
And I know people there, from there.
(07:12):
I know people who are the ageof my parents, and, they
had their children as well.
Some of them evacuated justat the beginning of the war
because it was very violent.
But some of them stayed there,so I could really, uh, get the
information directly from the place.
Uh, and as everything evaluated inthe bad sense of this word, I'm still
(07:40):
there, I'm still doing this kind ofjob, I'm still doing this kind of work,
but of course we now have our team.
Because since 2014 some of mycolleagues went away because it's
quite a pacifical occupation.
And actually these, those eventsbring me to the journalism.
(08:02):
Because I, I wanted to find thejournalists from the, uh, other countries
who share my views, my opinions.
And I found them, actually.
Uh, 2014, uh, 16, I found them.
And I was optimist at the time.
I was optimist.
I thought that, uh, reallysort of mobilization.
(08:23):
Uh, I mean, social, uh, activistmobilization would really, uh, contribute
to change, uh, things to better.
But, unfortunately, it wasn't andnow, after the beginning of special
operation, I'm going myself to, to theplace and even, even, uh, the special
operation, I, I spent, I, I was inDonetsk when special operation began.
(08:48):
I was with the French journalist there.
Of course, I didn't know that, uh,everything, uh, going to happen,
but, uh, I've seen how it was.
I came there in Donetsk to follow themobilization because if you remember
in the beginning of February, therewas a big mobilization and at the same
evacuation of civilians, because, all thistension in the border on the front line.
(09:13):
It was violated, the front lineand the agreement of stop fire.
I don't know how to say it,but it was violated many times.
So, uh, I think it was in the airthat, uh, something will, will happen.
And because of that the ceasefire.
Uh, and it was violated, and it wasin the air that something happened.
(09:35):
But of course we didn't expect to beat the middle of all those events.
Uh, and since then Icame, uh, several times.
Uh, in Donetsk, but, uh, whatI insist in my work is, uh,
always to record the civilians.
I'm not covering the, um, war, uh, eventsand I'm not covering the military issues.
(10:01):
Uh, what I'm doing is I'm alwayscoming to people, uh, who are always
victims, actually all the time and fromboth sides, victims are civilians.
And I'm talking with them,uh, and that's what I'm doing.
I'm standing always at thesame position as I was in 2014.
So, in, from, from this point of viewMy views didn't change, so I'm always
(10:27):
thinking what I thought 10 years andit's horrible, really sounds horrible.
And that's what I continue to do,even when everything will stop,
because in this, because the crimesagainst civilians, it's always.
Very vulnerable topic, uh, and oneof the most important for society,
(10:53):
all the time, no matter how muchtime passed from the events.
And the proof is that even now, the,uh, uh, the events of Second World War,
uh, are still harmful for some people.
For historical memory, for socialmemory, and, uh, you can say the same
(11:17):
thing from no matter which country.
Jovanni (11:19):
So you said you chronicle and the, um, what the civilians,
uh, has been, uh, uh, experiencing.
And, uh, you write about that and you,uh, discuss and you talked about the
civilians and you, um, got there in 2014.
Uh, and you've been to Dunes and Luhanarea since the, uh, specialty operation.
(11:44):
Can you, can you describe what thecivilians were telling you back then
and what they're telling you now?
If anything has changed, if it'sthe same, if it's gotten better?
Olesya Orlenko (11:51):
Well, uh, it's, it's actually, yes, uh, they, they have changed
their views, of course, but I mean, uh,I'll explain to you why I'm saying this.
Um.
Uh, I think that everybody now, uh, inmedia and it's very present is this,
uh, uh, this, uh, uh, rhetoric that,uh, East Ukraine, Eastern Ukraine is
(12:14):
pro Russian, it's more, uh, uh, Russianspeakers and, uh, uh, the, the area
with, uh, with a special, uh, historyconnected very much with, uh, Russia
since, uh, Uh, centuries and the, uh,uh, Western Ukrainian and contrary,
it's like, you know, uh, uh, more,the language is, uh, more similar with
(12:39):
Polish language and, uh, the territorywere, in Poland during many years.
I can tell you that Donetsk, well, inmy, uh, opinion, as I remember this
in Soviet time, and as I know it now,perhaps I'm wrong, but I'm telling
you my, uh, view of this region.
(13:02):
It's absolutely a double speaking region.
Even between my friends.
I, I can tell you that even they speakif they speak Russian in bilingual.
Yeah, they are bilingual.
Uh, and if they speak Russian, uh, uh,in their family, they are absolutely.
capable to speak Ukrainian.
(13:22):
Uh, I can tell you more.
I can tell you that, uh, some ofmy friends and my comrades, uh, uh,
who came in Donetsk or in region,uh, in the families came there,
living there since 19th century.
They were, uh, Learning at Ukrainianschools, but they speak perfectly
(13:48):
Russian without any accent, youknow, so a lot, a lot of people
there, uh, are, uh, bilingual.
And, uh, I'm not saying of course, it'seven in the cities and, and I, I'm not
saying, I'm not saying in villages becauseif you come in village, of course you
will see, you will hear all this mix ofRussian, Ukrainian, uh, and very, very
(14:15):
different, uh, languages and uh hmm.
Uh, special vocabulary, whichyou cannot find anywhere else.
So it's very, very interesting fromthis point of view, from a sociological
and ethnological point of view.
But This confrontation.
So I cannot say tell you that in two,2014, and people, I'm, and I'm asking
(14:39):
them why they, for example, were inanti Maidan, uh, in 2014 in esque, uh,
they won't tell you that we are notwant, we don't want to be in Ukraine,
or we don't want to speak Ukrainian.
No.
They are speaking Ukrainian.
The problem is the, the, uh, the issueis always, uh, political choice, as
(15:03):
people understand, because, you know,the political choice is when you say
this, you should understand that thepolitician who will sign the agreements
or, who will talk with the, uh, leadersof other country and the The person who
lives in Donetsk going to work at the,uh, I don't know, at the factory or,
(15:24):
no matter, or who lives in a village.
They have the different understandingof this political choice.
How it was explained to thesepeople because, that's always
the matter of the state.
To keep the country together, you reallyneed to make all citizens to understand
that they are citizens of this country.
And I think that 2014 is a bigfailure of the Ukrainian state.
(15:48):
I mean, this failure didn't occurin 2014 because it's the consequence
of the previous evolution.
In 2014, it was the sign that theUkrainian state made a big mistake
before, and it's not capableto keep the country together.
(16:08):
If you hear what people weresaying in 2014, the problem is not
what they were thinking about theKiev war, about the government.
But when people saw that there is anarmy People from Donetsk or, I don't
know, in Slavyansk, for example, thatpeople from Slavyansk, when they saw
that the army, the citizens of thesame country, they speak in the same
(16:31):
language, uh, when they come to shootthem, when the first blood started
to appear and the civil war started.
Was operated in Kyiv.
' cause Kyiv made a choice tokeep the country together.
The government made thechoice to start the Civil War.
So this choice, made areally split between.
(16:54):
Between Ukraine and people from Donbasand, Logan areas, territories, uh, they,
they, they started the split, startedthere from there, from the Civil War.
And 2014 I really heard, voices.
That we need to stop it, weneed to stop fire, we need
(17:14):
really to find another solution.
In 2022, when I came there, thediscourse has absolutely changed.
In this case, the discourse ofpeople, when you go to the magazine,
to the street and they stop people.
When I talked to them, they, theyare saying that I don't want to be
And Many friends of mine say thatUkraine killed Ukrainian in me, so I
(17:36):
don't want, I cannot be in this state,so their political choice, uh, were
determined by the policy of Kiev.
That's what they say, that'swhy, that's why when it was the
referendum, our colleagues followedreally very much this referendum.
I think this referendum Uh, about theself determination and about to enter
in Russian, uh, in Russia, to enterin Russia in September, uh, of 2022.
(18:01):
I think it was really fair, it maybeit sounds for those who listen to
us, uh, unacceptable, but it's reallyfair because I Met all the time.
I haven't ever met in, in, inmy displacement in, in Luhansk
I haven't ever met, someone whocan say that, no, I don't agree.
I don't want to be in Russia.
So all of them were dreaming aboutRussia because they had their reasons.
(18:26):
People was thinking that it'll resolve.
The problem and they, uh, helpthem, uh, in their situation.
They were during eight years in a very,in, in a humanitarian catastrophic,
and of course, only, solutionthey seen, the russian choice.
So.
I think that instead of resolving theproblem, the Ukrainian government
(18:49):
choice to make, things worse.
And, as well the bigfailure of the Ukraine.
Many people I know in 201415, uh, they were trying to
leave the, area of combatants.
And they, uh, they, they wantedto evacuate it somewhere.
And, uh, many of them choose Ukraine.
(19:10):
They moved to Ukraine, I mean tothe central or east Ukraine to
avoid the danger and they cameback because they were accepted.
Where with the, the, they, they didn'tfail themselves as in their country.
They felt better In Crimea or, orin Rosol, uh, region or in Russia?
(19:33):
Many of them left the central and easternUkraine and moved back, in the East.
, of course they are they are peoplewho, uh, evacuated and who made
the choice to stay in Ukraine.
I keep in contact with some of them.
And I'm keeping in contactwith my Ukrainian friends and,
comrades who are still in Ukraine.
(19:53):
But their situation is , very complicated.
Some of them, uh, stayed in Ukrainebecause they couldn't leave.
Now they are hiding from the mobilization.
Anyway, the situation, isvery hard, as they describe it.
And some of my friends are nowin Ukrainians, Ukrainian prisons,
(20:16):
and with some of them we reallyI can hardly communicate because
two years now, they are in prison.
Jovanni (20:25):
So know that, um, in 2014, after the coup, um, the, the The anti
Russian sentiments, right, reallyintensified in Western Ukraine.
Um, you started seeing, um, attacksagainst the Russian identity in Ukraine.
You started seeing, people, politicians,political parties being, um, cancelled
(20:50):
or prohibited because they werethought to be too close to Russia.
Uh, the Russian OrthodoxChurch was shut down.
, there were ban on bookson Russian language.
You saw trade unionists in Odessa,for example, they barricaded
themselves in their office buildingand a mob, an anti Russian mob,
pretty much, um, set the buildingon fire and killing all 80 of them.
(21:12):
Um, Crimea rapidly conducted areferendum with the majority voting to
secede from Ukraine and join Russia.
Russia conceded and annexed the peninsula.
The people of Donbass did the same.
However, Russia did not annex them.
What do you think, what do youthink that, uh, that happened?
Olesya Orlenko (21:33):
Those anti-Russian anti-Russian anti-Russian, uh,
sentiments in, uh, Western Ukraine.
You know, I faced them, uh,even, uh, when I was a child.
It's not something thatappeared 10 years ago.
Uh, I, uh, was born in, uh, 1981 andmy family, uh, was half Ukrainian.
(21:58):
And you can see my name and my, uh, familyname are Ukrainians and my grandfather.
Uh, was from, uh, the Western Ukraineand, uh, so I can tell you that,
uh, he was born in Poland becauseit was at the moment when he was
born it was, uh, Polish territory.
(22:19):
And I can tell you that in this part of myfamily, the nationalism was very strong.
And in Soviet time, especially in Moscow,you know, and he was military, and it
wasn't exposed too much, you know, itwasn't the topic of family conversation.
(22:39):
But I really, I do remember, uh, the antiSemitic nationalist, speech phrases I
didn't make any attention to this, but Iremember that it was really the reason,
um, the reason of the confrontationwith my mother and father sometimes.
(23:01):
Um, although they were,uh, uh, young as well.
What I'm saying the, people like the,the extremists, the nationalists, the
radicals, they are existing in, uh,all country and, uh, uh, all the time.
How influenced they become in the country.
(23:22):
So it's like criminals,they can say that in a way.
Everywhere where there is a human society,there are deviations and there will be
criminals or, I don't know, fake people.
But if you, the question is if youallow them to make decisions, if you
allow them to influence the others.
Uh, I'm not thinking that West Ukraine iscompletely anti Russian, they are only a
(23:49):
racist who lives there and now it's not.
Uh, I was in Lviv, I was, uh, inWestern Ukraine and I've seen.
Of course, I've seen both.
I've seen, uh, the, really, the racist,but at the same time, I've seen very
intelligent, smart people, uh, and I don'tknow how they're living now, because,
(24:14):
uh, they are afraid to contact someone,uh, in Russia, it was, uh, Since the
beginning of the, of the war, uh, since,uh, 2014, they stopped contact with me.
The problem is the minorityof this radical minority.
They are now access there to education,they can influence the society, they
(24:36):
have all freedom to express their ideas,
the opportunities to express the oppositeopinion are very, very, very wide.
It's not natural conflict, there werea lot of possibility, opportunities to
avoid this conflict, to resolve it then.
And even when the special operationbegan, there was still time, while we
(25:00):
could, I mean, people from the society.
The international community couldreally introduce an influence to stop
the violence, but we are observing,I'm observing since 2014, even earlier,
but let's take 2014, when I'm Theone opportunity after another is lost
(25:23):
when one red line crossed, anotherone extended and then crossed again.
So now I can, now the reality, Iremember that two years ago, I was
reading the articles and the politicalsay, it was saying from France, from
US, from, was saying that no, this isa red line, uh, we couldn't cross it.
(25:45):
But now, look, two years, have passedand we've seen that all red lines, of
two years ago, now they are passed away.
What else?
What we're doing?
What we're doing again?
So, is there any real redline which we cannot cross?
(26:08):
If we're talking about Crimea, it wasvery, uh, interesting particular region,
but it was very from strategical pointof view, very, very important for Russia.
I think that this conflict, uh, whenI'm talking about the Ukraine, but of
course, Uh, the, the relations in thepost Soviet space, depended as well from
(26:32):
Russia and for Russia it is important.
The failure as well since thecollapse of the Soviet Union.
One failure for afteranother for, for Russia.
Everything started from the war.
It's just, uh, if you see Sochi,uh, and it was, it's just,
uh, very, very new to Sochi.
You, you, you take two hours maximumfor to go there, uh, by train.
(26:56):
Uh, and I, I, I visited, uh,Apia as a journalist as well.
Uh, I've seen.
It's really a disaster.
It's a disaster.
It's an absolutely abandoned,very, very rich region.
But I've seen those, the entire city, theghost city, you know, the entire city.
(27:20):
You could see the buildings.
You can also see the tracesof the war who ended.
30 years ago, you still can seethe, uh, the traces of fires,
of destroyed buildings, and thecity, the whole city is abandoned.
It's, uh, hallucinating, it's amazing,I mean, in a bad sense of this word.
(27:43):
Uh, even there, about, I've seenthat about 9 or 10 persons still
live there, of course, the old ones.
I really, uh Of course it, uh, itwasn't the first war, but I mean,
for the first war, for after thecollapse of the Soviet Union.
And then you can see two wars inChechnya, it was really a civil war
(28:07):
caused by the policy of Russia, but,uh, uh, as well because of the failure
of, political failure of Russia,political failure of government.
Actually, that's why I don't know, I don'tknow, uh, if it is, uh, if I'm discovering
something for your audience, but one ofthe reason of popularity of Putin, because
he came and he was the, the only personwho could stop this conflict in Chechnya.
(28:31):
And it was his first political successand it was really, uh, it brought
him really a lot of electoral voicesand a lot of popularity in Russia.
Because, uh, before we were thinkingthat this war is unstoppable,
(28:54):
it's impossible to stop.
As they are telling now about the war inUkraine, you know, I was in Chechnya, just
a small visit of three days, I've seenGrozny, I remember because I was learning
at the school and then you University.
(29:16):
I remember after the bombing.
It was like, the city was, uh, complete,almost, completely raised grossly.
But now if you go there, you cannotfind any, uh, traces of, of the war.
It's absolutely new, but.
You come there, you won'tsay how it looked like.
Jovanni (29:31):
You mentioned about Chechnya and people thinking that Chechnya was going to
be an indefinite war that would never end.
Do you, is that the sentiment inRussia right now with the Ukrainian
war that it would never end?
Olesya Orlenko (29:41):
Well, not in Russia.
I think that in Russia, the perceptionof, of what happens of special operations,
the perception of what happens inDonetsk, it's absolutely different.
It's quite different.
Uh, in Donetsk and in Moscow.
When you are in Moscow, you really,uh, you will see the, the, the, the
city of, uh, peaceful city, uh, peopleliving, uh, uh, there are a lot of
(30:07):
distractions, uh, going to restaurants,uh, celebrating, uh, et cetera, et cetera.
Uh, of course, in Donetsk, it's different.
And, uh, uh, that's why when peoplefrom Donetsk come in Moscow, they say
that we have an impression that weare, well, that it's really, that it's
not real what happens there back home.
(30:28):
Yeah, but, you know, of course, there isa sort of depression in many regions of
Donetsk, uh, for, uh, To be, to look atthe future, people need this stability and
when, for example, Donetsk, the bombingof Donetsk never stopped since 2014.
(30:52):
Never stopped.
Every day.
I mean, of course, the damagewas different, but every day
they were bombing Donetsk.
Not a single day stopped.
Uh, and that's why, for example,in the city, they, uh, are no,
they new buildings, don't they,they don't construction new
(31:13):
buildings, new apartments, orbecause they could be destroyed.
Nobody want to startthe construction there.
But for example, in Mariupol, I wasin Mariupol, uh, when it was just.
when the, the Ukrainians went away,even I was even there when, still
as of style, uh, uh, were fighting.
(31:34):
It was just at the moment whereit was, coming to the end.
But I've seen the city,I've seen this road.
I, I've seen everything that couldbe in the cities, in this state,
and when I came my last time andI came there, it has changed.
Even if there are a lot of buildingsdestroyed and you could still
see the traces of destruction,but still see the changes.
(32:00):
And I can tell you that, Itinfluenced the population.
I don't know, I mean, I'm notsaying that people forgot everything
and now they are happy there.
Of course, this period, it wasvery, it was a real catastrophe.
When people see the changes for better,uh, it's, it's really influence.
(32:20):
But in Donetsk, for example,they don't see these changes.
I mean, they see a lot of changes,political changes, I mean.
And, of course, the situation,uh, changed in the matter of
that the Now they can earn money.
They can work and get their salary.
They can get the, uh, payment forretreatment for the, the pension or,
the infrastructure started to work, soit's the reality, but still for them,
(32:46):
of course, the changement will be whenthe violence and the combats will stop.
And that is what they're waiting for.
And I can tell you that a lot of them arereally tired of this situation because
10 years, imagine, 10 years and this.
Jovanni (33:03):
Situation.
Hopefully, hopefully end soon.
Recently, here in the United States, um,like I mentioned earlier, the, the years
prior to 2022, uh, didn't exist, right?
Everything happened in a vacuum.
Since 2022, Washington has pouredbillions, hundreds of billions
(33:25):
of dollars into this war.
The European Union, Germany.
Et cetera, right, to keep it going.
Recently there was a bill,there's a bill going on right now.
That the Democrats here wants topush political division here in the
United States with the Republicanswanting to defund the war in Ukraine.
And they'd rather fund more thewar in Israel, they'd rather fund.
(33:48):
Conflict in with China and Taiwan,they'd rather fund those, but they want
to defund the war in Ukraine, whereas theDemocrat wants to continue funding it.
So there's this fight in Congressright now but it's still, the media
is still presenting this, thisconflict as a Ukrainian Russian war.
The West has nothing to do with it.
They give life to it because offunding and the billions of weapons.
(34:10):
You weapons that goes into this war.
Do Russians see it the same way?
Does see it as a, justa Ukrainian Russian war?
Olesya Orlenko (34:16):
Oh, no, of course not.
Of course not.
In Russia, this conflict is viewedas a war of western countries.
And I can tell you evenin Russia, there is a.
Tendency to see the Ukraine as a victim,I mean, the Ukrainians, not the Ukraine
as the, the government, because, butthe Ukrainian people viewed in Russia
(34:39):
as a victim of of the policy, Westernpolicy, United States, of course.
And of course this, this, uh, view is,represented the idea to simplify things.
Of course, uh, you cannot, designone as a bad person, bad actor,
and another as a good doctor.
Of course, all those conflicts, and Imean, not only Russian, and Ukrainian,
(35:02):
but, I mean a lot of war that existnow in the modern war is because the
diplomatic and political, uh, solutionof problem could not be found and
it, it cannot be found because of theincompetence of political, establishment.
I think that of course western countriesare, it's not far for, from, from, call
(35:25):
them direct, actors of the conflict,because it's not only the matter of,
of money, financial support of thismilitary, uh, escalation and, uh,
combats, but the arms that, uh, theydeliver to, uh, Ukraine, the arms
that can attack Russia with thesearms, so it's, it's, it's a dead, but
(35:47):
Russia, of course, Russia, uh, may aswell prevent as well, this red line.
This is extended fromthe Russian part as well.
But, I think we are very closeto the direct implementation
in the United States.
This conflict of Western countries inany way now, even I see some of voices
(36:09):
from one of our European countriessaying that Ukraine will last the war,
uh, Putin can win, et cetera, et cetera.
But, All this, they are sayingthis not to stop with the conflict,
but to prepare for a bigger one.
And we can see, uh, in Germany, inFrance, the rhetoric is political.
(36:31):
Now that I'm starting to hear it,that you really should prepare
to the attacks from Russia.
But, and, uh, we should restore the,for example, in France, it's very Big
problem the police and, uh, the army,the status of military, men in the
army is not very high in French society.
(36:52):
And now Macron says that we need torestore entrainment for teenagers, we
need to restore the prestige of our army.
So they are started to talk about that.
And at the same time, they are sayingthat, Russia is is going to invade Europe.
As a historian, I can recognizeabsolutely, it's not the clichés, even
(37:14):
the the phrases, the whole phrases, theywere used even in 16th century when Russia
firstly appeared in European field, inEuropean view, and all those Cliche,
they coming from, from the at time.
So why, why I'm saying this.
I, I want to tell that for really, for,for to stop, uh, the, these conflicts,
(37:37):
you really, you really should have anintention to stop with the escalation.
But for that, all actors and, Europeansand the USA government, they should,
they should absolutely change the,vector, you know, of the policy.
Like, when I was, I was explaining, Iwas talking about my French friend, and
(38:01):
he asked me, how can you, what you'reproposing now, what now, February of 2024.
For to stop, uh, forto resolve the problem.
And I was saying thatit was really very hard.
It was hard two years ago, but twoyears ago it was still possible.
But now, I mean, it'sharder than two years ago.
(38:23):
But still, I think still possible.
But for that, you really should, acceptpart of responsibility for what happens.
So, USA and France, for example, shouldstop denying that they are in conflict.
Firstly, they should accept and recognizethat they are contributing a lot for the
(38:46):
stabilization of the situation in Europe.
In post Soviet Union and Ukraine,et cetera, the same for U.
S.
A., of course.
So they should really stop and reallygo, from there and really to the data
should go from this area, completely.
And There are other actors to introducethe independent, to introduce and to
(39:08):
control the situation, like for exampleCuba or Venezuela, but do France or United
States, will they ever accept That Cubawill contribute to resolve this conflict?
No, of course not, because for thatthe United States should really
change their position towards Cuba.
But if the United States, forexample, changed their position
(39:32):
towards Cuba, perhaps it will move.
And the problem is that it's not only theconflict in Ukraine that matters, but,
now this conflict in Israel and Gaza.
It's a different conflict, but itcomes in the same situation of
destabilization and Of denial.
It is the failure of international laws.
(39:53):
The international justice is the onlyway to resolve, no matter which country.
If the international justicedoesn't work in one case, it
means that it doesn't work.
I mean, not a mistake, but theinternational justice have
no right to be selective.
Not once, because to be selective once,it means to be selective every time.
So, it should be the same for everybody,no matter of political ideology, it
(40:16):
should be the same for North Korea,for Cuba, for United States, for
Russia, for Ukraine, and for France.
I think it's the only way.
Jovanni (40:22):
Absolutely.
Well, I think this is a goodplace for us to wrap it up.
Um, Olesya, thank you so much for comingon the show and sharing your time,
um, thoughts and experiences on this.
Um, any last comment before we part?
Olesya Orlenko (40:37):
No, thanks, thanks a lot.
Thank you for your patience.
Jovanni (40:40):
What do you, what do you recommend to an audience to learn
more about the situation in Dombas?
What resources do you recommend?
Olesya Orlenko (40:46):
I think that it's very important, to get the information from
different resources, from different,point of view, when you have a conflict
and, uh, when you have, people in mediawho cover this, this conflict, there's
always a tendency to, uh, take part.
And of course, there are alot of medias and or bloggers
or uh, uh, journalists who.
(41:07):
are taking part, uh, Russian part,Donetsk part, and I can tell you
that I'm taking part as well.
I am always from on the side of civilians,civilian population, and I was there, I
was standing there, and I'm always lookingfrom the point of view of a simple person,
not a military one, it's always a victim,but you really, what I can Really, the
(41:33):
advice to your audience is not to beafraid of media qualified as pro Russian
ones, so even if you think that this isKremlin propaganda, take your time to read
what they are reading, take your time toanalyze and read Compare the information
(41:54):
from other sources and, I mean, not withthe aim to say, ah, I'm, I will find,
uh, something for to, uh, for to lookthe arguments against what you're saying.
No, try to, to understand whypeople writing this, Don't be
like, you know, like in France, forexample, they forbided the Russian
(42:15):
channels, information channels.
Uh, and France, it's the, thecountry of the freedom of speech.
And you can see that they are abidingthe presence of Russian channels.
I'm not trying to, uh, defend, forexample, Russia today now, uh, but
I can tell you for ex, for example,in the, in the French example, that
(42:35):
one, it was the Yellow jackets.
Yellow jackets, yeah.
These movements, the protestmovements in France, uh.
The Russia Today was the only media whodidn't call those people terrorists,
bandits, lazy, or walkists, that's whythey were followed by French people, I
(42:57):
think you really should not be afraidof, of cliche and, to make your own
opinion , to listen to the informationand not influenced by the qualification
they, given to the, to the source of this.
Just try to think yourself, your own.
Jovanni (43:12):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Um, with that, uh, again, thank youagain for joining us and, um, let's
hope together that this conflictcomes to an end soon, right?
Take care.
Henri (43:26):
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