August 11, 2025 • 21 mins
Toronto’s offense is having a banger year. Can they carry this into October success? Do pitchers fear power or contact more in in the postseason?
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(8:42) Guardians starting pitcher Gavin Williams joins after a stellar (near no-hitter) performance against the Mets. How surprised was he that manager Stephen Vogt Did gave him a massive pitch count allowance?
Hosts: Trevor May, Scott Braun
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hot corner time. The Toronto Blue Jays are having a
banger year. They've been great, They have been surprisingly great.
The offense has taken a significant turn. We've seen the
names on paper for several years and this year it's
all coming together for them, Trevor. One of the big
reasons for that is the drastic turn in their contact rate.
So let's look at the strikeout numbers for the Blue Jays,
(00:27):
because they stand out a ton Blue Jays today with
this tweet, the Jays are averaging six point five eight
strikeouts per game, the next best team six point nine
to oh they said, that's frankly ridiculous. Dave Popkins actually
might be a hitting wizard talking about their hitting coach.
That might not seem like a large number, but that
is a very massive difference six point five eight to
(00:49):
six point nine to zero when you have this many
baseball games. Right, we're over one hundred games into the season.
I think one ten, maybe even a little bit more
than that one fifteen. So anyway, your thoughts on how
the Blue Jays are turn things around? Six five eight,
And just to give everyone a little more context, the
Kansas City Royals are next and they are often contact
Kings in that category six point nine ohks per game.
(01:09):
Then the padres at seven point oh two, and then
there's another big drop off to Saint Louis and Houston
both at seven point seven to seven strikeouts per game.
What are you seeing with Toronto and how annoying is
it for pitchers to face them right now?
Speaker 2 (01:24):
Well, it seems like this is a very conscious effort
to not strike out as much, especially because they had
last year no power and that was a major issue.
That's why they went on and senttender like they wanted
to bolster that power side. You just didn't know, you know,
Boba Sheet has been on or off, you know, up
to this point in his career in terms of on
(01:46):
the power side. And you can't just only rely on
Vladdie for all of your power. So if you can't
rely on power driving a lot of your production, you
got to do all the little things and you got
to make sure that at least we're not giving away
at bats and at least we are putting the ball
in play and letting athleticism take over because the game
is also we all the rule changes have shifted towards
(02:08):
really putting pressure on teams defense defensively needing to be
able to make plays that they're maybe not positioned as
well for so leaning into that makes a lot of
sense your team. If you're a team that doesn't strike
out a lot, like the number two team, for example,
Kansas City on this list at six point nine, Like
they don't have a lot of power either, right, and
they they don't score a lot at the moment, but
(02:30):
they don't just get dominated and just struck out by
these really good pitchers that we see everywhere. Strikeouts are
the way here in baseball. Everyone wants to get strikeout.
So if you can just frustrate strikeout pitchers top to bottom,
if a guy goes into an outing thinking this is
gonna suck, and I even if I throw zeros, they're
(02:50):
gonna make me work for it, and this isn't gonna
I'm not gonna have any of these nine pitch you know,
immaculate innings. Probably I'm gonna have to be making my
good pitches and be okay, and I'm not getting swim
and misses and not letting you know, outing or batters
get to ten pitch out at bats, but they're doing that,
and they're doing it regularly. They're doing it one through nine,
and I think that has put them in a really
(03:11):
good position to wear great pitching down and be a
little bit of daunting, even if they're still not just
hitting the cover off the ball over the fence all
the time. That combined with you know, guys like George
Springer having the year he's having and an increase of
the power at the same time, has really translated them
leading that that division. Like there's no ifs, ends or
(03:33):
buts about it.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
So I'm going to take this to the next step
because for Blue Jays fans, they're looking forward playoffs. If
this team keeps this up, they're going to be playing
some October baseball. They haven't gone as far as they
wanted to go, even when they had, you know, some
better times a few years ago, and then even going
back ten years, right, like, how does this team get
past the American League, which in my mind is still
down like it was last year compared to the National League.
(03:56):
It's my opinion again, I've gotten knocked forward recently, but
last year that opinion worked out pretty well for me.
I thought there were about five or six teams that
could beat the Yankees. So this year for the Blue Jays,
how do they get to the World Series? Do you
think that this style will play well in October? There's
been a lot written about this, Trevor over the last
five to ten years.
Speaker 3 (04:17):
I love contact.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
I want contact to win in October, but you still
need some serious slug because the pitching gets tightened up.
It's the best pitching and you're facing even less on
a staff. Right, you're going to face basically the top
three starters in the top four relievers ish on each team.
Speaker 3 (04:33):
So how does that look in October?
Speaker 2 (04:35):
Well, I think that this approach, the non strikeout approach,
works better than the other thing than if you're strikeout heavy,
but you're have big boppers. I think those guys get
abused by great pitchers. Running to a tear scooble or
something in the first round is not going to be
fun for anybody. But if you can go up there
and get the two extra pitches per per inning, and
(04:57):
so he only can throw five or you know, five
and a third as opposed to eight, right, you're gonna
get the best guys. So if you're able to put
the ball, bat on the ball more often, you're putting
yourself in a better position. Now you need the big swings,
you need the guys to come up clutch, you need
to get the big hit right. But if you can
grind that out. It's highly charged atmosphere. You're using a
(05:18):
lot of energy as a pitcher, and if you can
fight against that and the guy can't depend on his
ability to get a strikeout the way he did during
the regular season, you're putting himself in a good position
to grind guys down. As someone who pitched extensively to
the twenty fifteen Kansas City Royals who did not have
a lot of slug and nobody struck out. And it
(05:39):
was so frustrating because that was my one thing that
I did well. Like we saw it in the playoffs,
they just wore teams down. They were not a fun
team to pitch against. And they kept running into nasty
guy after a nasty guy and just fought and fought
and fought, and their pitching was good enough, their bullpen
was good enough to keep him close and ended up
coming up the top. And that's how you do it.
(06:00):
You have to approach it in that way and then
have a couple of guys, the Vladdies, the George springers
the Boba Sheets like, have a couple of big games
here and there, and that be the difference. That is
probably what it's going to look like if to make
a long run.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
Yeah, guys have holes in their swing. Power hitters often
have more holes in their swing, right.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
Absolutely, Yeah, Well, I mean the harder you swing the like,
the more right you have to be on how it's
moving and where it is. Like you can't if you
drag your bat through the zone. If you're able to
slow and various swing speeds like Wan Soto does that
very well. That's why he's so good at making contact.
It's just more frustrating than vice versa, and making adjustments
(06:39):
in your swing is the way that you are going
to hit against these guys. Very few guys are just
going forcing fastball and a slide of them moves the
same way every time, even relievers. Now you reallys have
four pitches, so you have to be able to work
AB's and get these guys tired and less confident in
their ability to get you to swing amiss. That's a
big deal, especially for bullpens that are pretty much all
(06:59):
built around the swing, and it's.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
Hard to string together rally, so That's why for me
it's super fun to watch Luisa rise in the playoffs.
A Stephen Kwan in the playoffs to counter things right,
even against you know, the number one starters right at
schoobl Like, it's still really hard for Terrek Schooble to
strike out Stephen Kuan, And if Kuwan can make a
little contact and get on base, suddenly things change. He's
not just bulldozing the entire lineup. On the other end
(07:22):
of that, I mean, Aaron Judge is a complete all
round player, but man, they found a hole.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
They exploited it. Then he started losing confidence.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
Looking at Aaron Judge last year in the playoffs, that's
the best player, top two player him and Otani in
our sport. And Aaron Judge was was terrible really for
most of the postseason. Kind of found it a little
bit towards the end, then had the big drop. But
it can happen to anyone. AJ I'm on my phone
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(07:49):
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You got it.
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Speaker 3 (08:42):
Here we go.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
We've got Guardians Starter Gavin Williams joining us right now,
coming off a big week, a huge outing, carrying a
no hitter into the ninth against the Mets. Gavin great
to have you on, Scottie Brown here and Trevor May.
How's the week going for you?
Speaker 3 (08:56):
Oh? The week's going good.
Speaker 4 (08:58):
I mean it started off by getting a one one
card for me for myself from a fan, a Mets
fan actually just traded a jersey had got them some
tickets to the game.
Speaker 3 (09:08):
So it's been a good week for me. Wait tell me, wait,
so what did you get? What did you what was
the deal?
Speaker 4 (09:15):
So you got a one to one chrome saw something
it's like an orange or some some kind of barrier
to it. And then somehow got up with our public
public relations people and then they asked me if I
wanted to trade anything for I was like, for sure,
I'll definitely.
Speaker 3 (09:34):
Take a one on one of myself. So it was
pretty easy.
Speaker 4 (09:37):
Just had to sign a jersey, wrote a little letter
to him on there, and that's about it.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
So are you like a are you a big card
I'm assuming you're a big card guy. That's uh, that's
something that I honestly, no one ever approached me about that.
So you you big card collectors? Just like one of
your big things.
Speaker 4 (09:57):
I wouldn't say card I've been collecting more base us
on baseballs and stuff like that. First, I got a
good collection going so far. Baseball's I mean, I got
Miguel Cabrera, I got Tito, got Mike Treill, Bobby with
I got, I got some big names in there. So
I'm gonna I'm I'm gonna keep going on with that.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
So do you are you a send the clubhouse guy
over or do you like to personally ask for the
for the autograph.
Speaker 4 (10:25):
I've done a little bit of both. Usually it's just
the clubhouse guy going over. I feel like that's the
easiest way to do it.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
Safest, definitely the safest. It's a little weird asking sometimes
it's a little weird asking guys you're sharing the field with,
or you gotta strike out later to sign a baseball
for you. I totally get it. I totally get it.
Speaker 3 (10:43):
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 4 (10:45):
I mean, I got some buddies that I'll ask, But
that's about it. Definitely got to send the clubhouse guy
over though.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
Definitely.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
All right, Gavin, let's let's get into the good stuff here.
Take me through the experience against the Mets from you know,
what was going on before that start? How you're feeling
going into that matchup.
Speaker 3 (11:04):
All the way through your.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
Ninth inning emotions, Soto finally breaks up the no no,
and Steven Vote was like, I'm letting this guy eat
one hundred and twenty six pitches.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
We rarely see that.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
I'm sure you've talked about it a lot already in interviews,
but our crowd definitely can tend to want to see
pitchers eat and they want to hear about the old
school experience that Steven Vote.
Speaker 3 (11:25):
Brought for you.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
So how did that all go down and how cool
was it for him to let you do that?
Speaker 3 (11:30):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (11:31):
I mean at that point when I went up out
for the ninth if it took me one hundred and
fifty pitches to try and get a no hit or done,
then I mean that's what I would have done. I mean,
the villa was still there as everyone sees, but I
mean it was just a surreal moment. Doesn't really happen
that often. Being able to get in that position and
(11:52):
stay in that position throughout the whole game and a
good lineup, it was phenomenal.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
What do you think the kind of X factor was
arsenal wise? What was working the best for.
Speaker 4 (12:03):
You that day.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
What what what pitch or maybe combination of pitches. I
guess I never got close to throwing no hitters, so
I'm assuming there's probably more than one. But what felt
what were you most confident in throwing? What was working
the best?
Speaker 4 (12:17):
Honestly, the cutter and the sinker. I felt like, I mean,
the cutter wasn't there as much as I've had in
the past, but I threw it and get them off
the get them off balance, and then throw them the
sinker the lefties and rieties, which that was the first
time I threw both the lefties and raeties.
Speaker 3 (12:32):
Just just get them off, get them off the heater.
Speaker 4 (12:36):
I knew in the pass it through like I guess
fiftys in games, so being able to get get the
guys off the heaters big. I knew it through the
sweeper or slide or whatever you want to call it.
I feel like I didn't even have that really throughout
the game.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
When you mentioned the cutter. Uh, and this is something
that well, a friend of mine and then the guy
who follows your career pretty close that you know Sarahs
loves your cutter and your change is your cutter, So
I would be remiss if I didn't ask you, and
I'm glad you brought it up. So your cutter usage
is the highest it has ever been. You learned that
pitch last year? Correct?
Speaker 4 (13:12):
Yeah, well it was supposed to be a slider last year,
but I was hurt so I couldn't really get on
top of the ball that much. So I brought it
back this year after I think it was the playing
the Orioles gave up five. I only had three pitches
like in the first five or six starts, so I
needed to add a couple more just to be able
(13:33):
to get the hitters off the heater, not do it
as much.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
And it seems to have been working out as you mentioned.
So in terms of the cutter, how what has it
unlocked for you? And what about the pitch has got
you thinking? Wow? This is this is what I wanted
to be as opposed to, you know, the slider that
maybe you're trying to throw before. What what what made
you land on? Cutter is the way to go.
Speaker 3 (13:57):
I think it's my biggest strike pitch.
Speaker 4 (14:00):
I feel like I can throw it in any count,
in front of the count, behind the count, doesn't really matter. Lefties, righties,
I can throw it at any point and know I
can either get a strikeout.
Speaker 3 (14:13):
Or roll over or pop up.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
Kevin, I want to ask you about the development machine,
pitching wise, that Cleveland has built. So can you take
me through your draft experience, which you can definitely sprinkle in.
I think you were drafted three times. How you end
up with Cleveland, What they showed you, what they taught
you to do, and how you've gotten to this point right,
what's refined? What did you learn from them?
Speaker 3 (14:37):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (14:38):
I think going out in Arizona, just learning about all
the different kind of technology, like the edge, the track man.
I know, I didn't use any of that in college,
and I didn't really care about it when I got drafted.
And then the more I get to throwing and getting
off the mountains, seeing how I can use all of
that and see how I can read fine all my pitches.
Speaker 3 (15:01):
It's helped out a lot with Cleveland.
Speaker 4 (15:03):
I mean it starts with all the tech guys and
then all the the pitching coaches. I mean they're all smart,
They're unbelievably good and talented at everything they do, showing
you what to work on and what you need to
do to fix everything. So it's it's been a big
transition from the bottom up for me.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
So you've, according to our numbers, you've thrown over one
hundred pitches eight times this season, which is if I'm assuming,
I don't know the numbers on everyone else, but that
seems high. It doesn't seem like this happens as much.
And one twenty six obviously is a very high number.
But how important is it is? Is the one hundred
pitch mark very important for you to get to? Or
(15:45):
you know that you're doing well when you're like going
that long? And what was going through your mind when
you were like, I think I'm at like one fifty.
Did you realize you were at like one fifteen one twenty,
especially after the photo broken up. Were you excited to
face more hitters after that? Oh?
Speaker 3 (16:00):
Yeah, I think in the seventh inning.
Speaker 4 (16:02):
Came in into the dugout after that inning and Voter
Voter yelled out, keep going, Gavin.
Speaker 3 (16:08):
I looked up, but I was that ninety seven pitches.
I was like, this dude wants me to keep going.
Speaker 4 (16:13):
And then I finally looked at the scoreboard and saw
what was going going on, and I think I got
to like the one to fifteen mark or one eleventh mark,
I was like, dang, this is I'm cooking right now.
Speaker 3 (16:25):
Hopefully I got some more in the tank.
Speaker 4 (16:26):
And then obviously Soda left it up just a little
over the plate for him, and it took a good swing,
but it was nice getting a refresher after he hit that,
and Carl coming out and give me a little break
trying to get two more outs after that.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
Were you surprised they let you go after that, because
of course many organizations are freaking out soon after the
century mark and they're like, okay, but once the no
no is gone and then Soda hits the homer, obviously
you guys are in command still of that game. Where
you surprised that they let you go after that, I.
Speaker 3 (17:01):
Was a little surprised, but I do have two extra
days this week.
Speaker 4 (17:04):
We had an off day yesterday and then off day Monday,
So it.
Speaker 3 (17:08):
Surprised me a little bit, but not too much.
Speaker 4 (17:10):
And I also knew there was nobody warming up in
the pen at that point, so I was either gonna
have to finish it or they were gonna have to
waste some more time for me.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
Hey, one more on this with pitch counts. I know
you've talked about it a lot this week. Do you
think that it's something that needs to be revisited in
our sport? It really goes down to the minor league level,
where there's some starters that are baby so much for
a long period of time. Right, it's like, oh, we're
only going to let you go three innings or you know,
(17:40):
we're only gonna let you go fifty pitches, and then
a few months in maybe we'll extend things. Not every
org's doing this, but many of them are, right, they're
super careful, and let's be real. I mean, the sport
definitely has an arm injury epidemic going on. So I'm
not gonna act like I know what I'm doing. It
just doesn't sound like anyone knows what they're doing. So
do you think that there needs to be less of
a struck Sure, I mean, you're six six, two fifty,
(18:02):
maybe you can handle a little bit more than your
average starter.
Speaker 3 (18:07):
I think it just depends on the organization.
Speaker 4 (18:09):
I know, there's like a there's a lot of innings
that cover in the minor leagues, and then I mean
sometimes it's a guy's first year, so they're just trying
to do workload stuff. But I think it depends on
the guy and like how many innings they have in
the past, really worry about the pitch count and if
they need to go less or more. I think I
think there's a bunch of science behind behind the pitch count.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
Really, I was listening to some radio this morning and
your manager, Steven Vote Vote he was on there and
asked about the decision to leave you in as long
as he did, and he the comments he made were
effectively what you just said. I know this guy, I
know what type of work he does, and I know
(18:51):
he's going to take care of his body in between
these two starts. He's built to do this thing. And
it's specifically I feel this confidence I try him because
I feel like he can handle it because of what
you do between your starts. So do you do you
does that resonate for you in a way like is
that something that you are actually out here trying to foster?
(19:13):
And be like, yes, that's exactly what I want you
to feel when I get out there and pitch, that
I can't take care of myself and be ready to
go even if I throw more pitches one week, one
start over another.
Speaker 3 (19:23):
Yeah, one hundred percent I know Corey Kleeber.
Speaker 4 (19:26):
He's working with us now, and I've talked to him
plenty of times about what I need to do between
starts and what he did.
Speaker 3 (19:34):
So now now I see the mastarge therapist three times
a week.
Speaker 4 (19:38):
I get one the day after I start, and then
bullpen day, and then the day before I start. I
see the massage therapist and she's a big she's big
into my routine and I could could. I can't thank
her enough for what she does day in and day
out for me and just all the other pitchers.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
Man, there's nothing better than than the post start, actually
post any relief appearance to massage the best. I've also
been told that you in high school through back to
back no hitters. Is that? Is that right?
Speaker 3 (20:12):
Yeah? That is correct?
Speaker 2 (20:14):
So I have a question.
Speaker 3 (20:14):
Back to weeks, back to back weeks.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
Okay, I have a question because I don't mean to
toot my own horner, but I'm I did three, So
I guess the question is why didn't you pull off
that third one?
Speaker 4 (20:28):
Because I got taken out early pitchcount or not really pitchcount.
It was a five in game, so I can't really
count a five inning game.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
Ah, So you hadn't given up hits in that one either. Ah,
so it all makes sense. That explains why you want
to go one hundred and twenty six pitches and ountings.
Speaker 3 (20:43):
It makes I need to get my third one so
I can catch up with you.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
Maybe someday you'll get to do this.
Speaker 3 (20:51):
Yeah, yeah, it's it's beautiful.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
Wait, just to clarify real real quick. So you did
the two and then the third one was a shorter game,
so you did the five Benning No, no, but it's
not enough for a game.
Speaker 3 (21:02):
Yeah, it's not enough for a game. Can't count. Yeah, okay, okay,
but it's like kind of more in high school at least.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
Okay, kind of like good asterisk though, because there's nothing
else you could have done. I mean, you did not
give up any hits for the five, So that actually
like kind of brings Trevor down a notch. He was
he was coming in here. I got that in a row,
and Gavin's like, I kind of did.
Speaker 3 (21:24):
I mean, he's got he's got the full game under
his belt. I don't so true.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
True, Well, uh, you you've got something cooking in the
in the majors here.
Speaker 3 (21:32):
Man.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
It was awesome to watch We appreciate you joining us.
It was really fun game, cool to see even you know,
the crowd out there in New York, which can be hostile,
give you a nice standing oh at the at the
back end of that. So, Gavin, thanks for joining us. Man,
keep doing your thing. Yeah, I appreciate yo. Thanks for
having me.
Speaker 4 (21:47):
You
Hot corner time. The Toronto Blue Jays are having a
banger year. They've been great, They have been surprisingly great.
The offense has taken a significant turn. We've seen the
names on paper for several years and this year it's
all coming together for them, Trevor. One of the big
reasons for that is the drastic turn in their contact rate.
So let's look at the strikeout numbers for the Blue Jays,
(00:27):
because they stand out a ton Blue Jays today with
this tweet, the Jays are averaging six point five eight
strikeouts per game, the next best team six point nine
to oh they said, that's frankly ridiculous. Dave Popkins actually
might be a hitting wizard talking about their hitting coach.
That might not seem like a large number, but that
is a very massive difference six point five eight to
(00:49):
six point nine to zero when you have this many
baseball games. Right, we're over one hundred games into the season.
I think one ten, maybe even a little bit more
than that one fifteen. So anyway, your thoughts on how
the Blue Jays are turn things around? Six five eight,
And just to give everyone a little more context, the
Kansas City Royals are next and they are often contact
Kings in that category six point nine ohks per game.
(01:09):
Then the padres at seven point oh two, and then
there's another big drop off to Saint Louis and Houston
both at seven point seven to seven strikeouts per game.
What are you seeing with Toronto and how annoying is
it for pitchers to face them right now?
Speaker 2 (01:24):
Well, it seems like this is a very conscious effort
to not strike out as much, especially because they had
last year no power and that was a major issue.
That's why they went on and senttender like they wanted
to bolster that power side. You just didn't know, you know,
Boba Sheet has been on or off, you know, up
to this point in his career in terms of on
(01:46):
the power side. And you can't just only rely on
Vladdie for all of your power. So if you can't
rely on power driving a lot of your production, you
got to do all the little things and you got
to make sure that at least we're not giving away
at bats and at least we are putting the ball
in play and letting athleticism take over because the game
is also we all the rule changes have shifted towards
(02:08):
really putting pressure on teams defense defensively needing to be
able to make plays that they're maybe not positioned as
well for so leaning into that makes a lot of
sense your team. If you're a team that doesn't strike
out a lot, like the number two team, for example,
Kansas City on this list at six point nine, Like
they don't have a lot of power either, right, and
they they don't score a lot at the moment, but
(02:30):
they don't just get dominated and just struck out by
these really good pitchers that we see everywhere. Strikeouts are
the way here in baseball. Everyone wants to get strikeout.
So if you can just frustrate strikeout pitchers top to bottom,
if a guy goes into an outing thinking this is
gonna suck, and I even if I throw zeros, they're
(02:50):
gonna make me work for it, and this isn't gonna
I'm not gonna have any of these nine pitch you know,
immaculate innings. Probably I'm gonna have to be making my
good pitches and be okay, and I'm not getting swim
and misses and not letting you know, outing or batters
get to ten pitch out at bats, but they're doing that,
and they're doing it regularly. They're doing it one through nine,
and I think that has put them in a really
(03:11):
good position to wear great pitching down and be a
little bit of daunting, even if they're still not just
hitting the cover off the ball over the fence all
the time. That combined with you know, guys like George
Springer having the year he's having and an increase of
the power at the same time, has really translated them
leading that that division. Like there's no ifs, ends or
(03:33):
buts about it.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
So I'm going to take this to the next step
because for Blue Jays fans, they're looking forward playoffs. If
this team keeps this up, they're going to be playing
some October baseball. They haven't gone as far as they
wanted to go, even when they had, you know, some
better times a few years ago, and then even going
back ten years, right, like, how does this team get
past the American League, which in my mind is still
down like it was last year compared to the National League.
(03:56):
It's my opinion again, I've gotten knocked forward recently, but
last year that opinion worked out pretty well for me.
I thought there were about five or six teams that
could beat the Yankees. So this year for the Blue Jays,
how do they get to the World Series? Do you
think that this style will play well in October? There's
been a lot written about this, Trevor over the last
five to ten years.
Speaker 3 (04:17):
I love contact.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
I want contact to win in October, but you still
need some serious slug because the pitching gets tightened up.
It's the best pitching and you're facing even less on
a staff. Right, you're going to face basically the top
three starters in the top four relievers ish on each team.
Speaker 3 (04:33):
So how does that look in October?
Speaker 2 (04:35):
Well, I think that this approach, the non strikeout approach,
works better than the other thing than if you're strikeout heavy,
but you're have big boppers. I think those guys get
abused by great pitchers. Running to a tear scooble or
something in the first round is not going to be
fun for anybody. But if you can go up there
and get the two extra pitches per per inning, and
(04:57):
so he only can throw five or you know, five
and a third as opposed to eight, right, you're gonna
get the best guys. So if you're able to put
the ball, bat on the ball more often, you're putting
yourself in a better position. Now you need the big swings,
you need the guys to come up clutch, you need
to get the big hit right. But if you can
grind that out. It's highly charged atmosphere. You're using a
(05:18):
lot of energy as a pitcher, and if you can
fight against that and the guy can't depend on his
ability to get a strikeout the way he did during
the regular season, you're putting himself in a good position
to grind guys down. As someone who pitched extensively to
the twenty fifteen Kansas City Royals who did not have
a lot of slug and nobody struck out. And it
(05:39):
was so frustrating because that was my one thing that
I did well. Like we saw it in the playoffs,
they just wore teams down. They were not a fun
team to pitch against. And they kept running into nasty
guy after a nasty guy and just fought and fought
and fought, and their pitching was good enough, their bullpen
was good enough to keep him close and ended up
coming up the top. And that's how you do it.
(06:00):
You have to approach it in that way and then
have a couple of guys, the Vladdies, the George springers
the Boba Sheets like, have a couple of big games
here and there, and that be the difference. That is
probably what it's going to look like if to make
a long run.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
Yeah, guys have holes in their swing. Power hitters often
have more holes in their swing, right.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
Absolutely, Yeah, Well, I mean the harder you swing the like,
the more right you have to be on how it's
moving and where it is. Like you can't if you
drag your bat through the zone. If you're able to
slow and various swing speeds like Wan Soto does that
very well. That's why he's so good at making contact.
It's just more frustrating than vice versa, and making adjustments
(06:39):
in your swing is the way that you are going
to hit against these guys. Very few guys are just
going forcing fastball and a slide of them moves the
same way every time, even relievers. Now you reallys have
four pitches, so you have to be able to work
AB's and get these guys tired and less confident in
their ability to get you to swing amiss. That's a
big deal, especially for bullpens that are pretty much all
(06:59):
built around the swing, and it's.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
Hard to string together rally, so That's why for me
it's super fun to watch Luisa rise in the playoffs.
A Stephen Kwan in the playoffs to counter things right,
even against you know, the number one starters right at
schoobl Like, it's still really hard for Terrek Schooble to
strike out Stephen Kuan, And if Kuwan can make a
little contact and get on base, suddenly things change. He's
not just bulldozing the entire lineup. On the other end
(07:22):
of that, I mean, Aaron Judge is a complete all
round player, but man, they found a hole.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
They exploited it. Then he started losing confidence.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
Looking at Aaron Judge last year in the playoffs, that's
the best player, top two player him and Otani in
our sport. And Aaron Judge was was terrible really for
most of the postseason. Kind of found it a little
bit towards the end, then had the big drop. But
it can happen to anyone. AJ I'm on my phone
right now in Arena Club and I'm looking at the
Emerald Slab packs and I see in the grail a
(07:49):
Bobby wit Junior twenty twenty Bowman Chrome Prospect Auto Gold
Refractor card.
Speaker 3 (07:55):
Give me that, Give me your phone. I'm gonna I'm
gonna get.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
You to well, you gotta buy it to me.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
I don't have it.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
You got it.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
You get a slab pack. No, I don't have that,
and give me your slab pack.
Speaker 4 (08:03):
That card's worth you buy slab pack, Scott, so I
can get the Bobby Wit Junior Gold Refractor twenty twenty
Bowman Chrome AUTI.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Because that sounds awesome and it's worth a lot.
Speaker 3 (08:12):
It's worth a lot. He's a stud, he's not going down.
Get a grill. Get a grill. I want a gril, Scott,
give me the holy grill.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
You do it.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
To do that, you must get yourself a slab pack
in Arena Club or if you want to get it
for a friend, you can do that too. And right
now you can get twenty percent off your first slab
pack or your first card purchase if you're going on
there and just like, hey, I want a specific card.
I find it there on a grab it for my
showroom Arena Club dot com. Slash foul and use the
code foul.
Speaker 3 (08:42):
Here we go.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
We've got Guardians Starter Gavin Williams joining us right now,
coming off a big week, a huge outing, carrying a
no hitter into the ninth against the Mets. Gavin great
to have you on, Scottie Brown here and Trevor May.
How's the week going for you?
Speaker 3 (08:56):
Oh? The week's going good.
Speaker 4 (08:58):
I mean it started off by getting a one one
card for me for myself from a fan, a Mets
fan actually just traded a jersey had got them some
tickets to the game.
Speaker 3 (09:08):
So it's been a good week for me. Wait tell me, wait,
so what did you get? What did you what was
the deal?
Speaker 4 (09:15):
So you got a one to one chrome saw something
it's like an orange or some some kind of barrier
to it. And then somehow got up with our public
public relations people and then they asked me if I
wanted to trade anything for I was like, for sure,
I'll definitely.
Speaker 3 (09:34):
Take a one on one of myself. So it was
pretty easy.
Speaker 4 (09:37):
Just had to sign a jersey, wrote a little letter
to him on there, and that's about it.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
So are you like a are you a big card
I'm assuming you're a big card guy. That's uh, that's
something that I honestly, no one ever approached me about that.
So you you big card collectors? Just like one of
your big things.
Speaker 4 (09:57):
I wouldn't say card I've been collecting more base us
on baseballs and stuff like that. First, I got a
good collection going so far. Baseball's I mean, I got
Miguel Cabrera, I got Tito, got Mike Treill, Bobby with
I got, I got some big names in there. So
I'm gonna I'm I'm gonna keep going on with that.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
So do you are you a send the clubhouse guy
over or do you like to personally ask for the
for the autograph.
Speaker 4 (10:25):
I've done a little bit of both. Usually it's just
the clubhouse guy going over. I feel like that's the
easiest way to do it.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
Safest, definitely the safest. It's a little weird asking sometimes
it's a little weird asking guys you're sharing the field with,
or you gotta strike out later to sign a baseball
for you. I totally get it. I totally get it.
Speaker 3 (10:43):
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 4 (10:45):
I mean, I got some buddies that I'll ask, But
that's about it. Definitely got to send the clubhouse guy
over though.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
Definitely.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
All right, Gavin, let's let's get into the good stuff here.
Take me through the experience against the Mets from you know,
what was going on before that start? How you're feeling
going into that matchup.
Speaker 3 (11:04):
All the way through your.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
Ninth inning emotions, Soto finally breaks up the no no,
and Steven Vote was like, I'm letting this guy eat
one hundred and twenty six pitches.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
We rarely see that.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
I'm sure you've talked about it a lot already in interviews,
but our crowd definitely can tend to want to see
pitchers eat and they want to hear about the old
school experience that Steven Vote.
Speaker 3 (11:25):
Brought for you.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
So how did that all go down and how cool
was it for him to let you do that?
Speaker 3 (11:30):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (11:31):
I mean at that point when I went up out
for the ninth if it took me one hundred and
fifty pitches to try and get a no hit or done,
then I mean that's what I would have done. I mean,
the villa was still there as everyone sees, but I
mean it was just a surreal moment. Doesn't really happen
that often. Being able to get in that position and
(11:52):
stay in that position throughout the whole game and a
good lineup, it was phenomenal.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
What do you think the kind of X factor was
arsenal wise? What was working the best for.
Speaker 4 (12:03):
You that day.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
What what what pitch or maybe combination of pitches. I
guess I never got close to throwing no hitters, so
I'm assuming there's probably more than one. But what felt
what were you most confident in throwing? What was working
the best?
Speaker 4 (12:17):
Honestly, the cutter and the sinker. I felt like, I mean,
the cutter wasn't there as much as I've had in
the past, but I threw it and get them off
the get them off balance, and then throw them the
sinker the lefties and rieties, which that was the first
time I threw both the lefties and raeties.
Speaker 3 (12:32):
Just just get them off, get them off the heater.
Speaker 4 (12:36):
I knew in the pass it through like I guess
fiftys in games, so being able to get get the
guys off the heaters big. I knew it through the
sweeper or slide or whatever you want to call it.
I feel like I didn't even have that really throughout
the game.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
When you mentioned the cutter. Uh, and this is something
that well, a friend of mine and then the guy
who follows your career pretty close that you know Sarahs
loves your cutter and your change is your cutter, So
I would be remiss if I didn't ask you, and
I'm glad you brought it up. So your cutter usage
is the highest it has ever been. You learned that
pitch last year? Correct?
Speaker 4 (13:12):
Yeah, well it was supposed to be a slider last year,
but I was hurt so I couldn't really get on
top of the ball that much. So I brought it
back this year after I think it was the playing
the Orioles gave up five. I only had three pitches
like in the first five or six starts, so I
needed to add a couple more just to be able
(13:33):
to get the hitters off the heater, not do it
as much.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
And it seems to have been working out as you mentioned.
So in terms of the cutter, how what has it
unlocked for you? And what about the pitch has got
you thinking? Wow? This is this is what I wanted
to be as opposed to, you know, the slider that
maybe you're trying to throw before. What what what made
you land on? Cutter is the way to go.
Speaker 3 (13:57):
I think it's my biggest strike pitch.
Speaker 4 (14:00):
I feel like I can throw it in any count,
in front of the count, behind the count, doesn't really matter. Lefties, righties,
I can throw it at any point and know I
can either get a strikeout.
Speaker 3 (14:13):
Or roll over or pop up.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
Kevin, I want to ask you about the development machine,
pitching wise, that Cleveland has built. So can you take
me through your draft experience, which you can definitely sprinkle in.
I think you were drafted three times. How you end
up with Cleveland, What they showed you, what they taught
you to do, and how you've gotten to this point right,
what's refined? What did you learn from them?
Speaker 3 (14:37):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (14:38):
I think going out in Arizona, just learning about all
the different kind of technology, like the edge, the track man.
I know, I didn't use any of that in college,
and I didn't really care about it when I got drafted.
And then the more I get to throwing and getting
off the mountains, seeing how I can use all of
that and see how I can read fine all my pitches.
Speaker 3 (15:01):
It's helped out a lot with Cleveland.
Speaker 4 (15:03):
I mean it starts with all the tech guys and
then all the the pitching coaches. I mean they're all smart,
They're unbelievably good and talented at everything they do, showing
you what to work on and what you need to
do to fix everything. So it's it's been a big
transition from the bottom up for me.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
So you've, according to our numbers, you've thrown over one
hundred pitches eight times this season, which is if I'm assuming,
I don't know the numbers on everyone else, but that
seems high. It doesn't seem like this happens as much.
And one twenty six obviously is a very high number.
But how important is it is? Is the one hundred
pitch mark very important for you to get to? Or
(15:45):
you know that you're doing well when you're like going
that long? And what was going through your mind when
you were like, I think I'm at like one fifty.
Did you realize you were at like one fifteen one twenty,
especially after the photo broken up. Were you excited to
face more hitters after that? Oh?
Speaker 3 (16:00):
Yeah, I think in the seventh inning.
Speaker 4 (16:02):
Came in into the dugout after that inning and Voter
Voter yelled out, keep going, Gavin.
Speaker 3 (16:08):
I looked up, but I was that ninety seven pitches.
I was like, this dude wants me to keep going.
Speaker 4 (16:13):
And then I finally looked at the scoreboard and saw
what was going going on, and I think I got
to like the one to fifteen mark or one eleventh mark,
I was like, dang, this is I'm cooking right now.
Speaker 3 (16:25):
Hopefully I got some more in the tank.
Speaker 4 (16:26):
And then obviously Soda left it up just a little
over the plate for him, and it took a good swing,
but it was nice getting a refresher after he hit that,
and Carl coming out and give me a little break
trying to get two more outs after that.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
Were you surprised they let you go after that, because
of course many organizations are freaking out soon after the
century mark and they're like, okay, but once the no
no is gone and then Soda hits the homer, obviously
you guys are in command still of that game. Where
you surprised that they let you go after that, I.
Speaker 3 (17:01):
Was a little surprised, but I do have two extra
days this week.
Speaker 4 (17:04):
We had an off day yesterday and then off day Monday,
So it.
Speaker 3 (17:08):
Surprised me a little bit, but not too much.
Speaker 4 (17:10):
And I also knew there was nobody warming up in
the pen at that point, so I was either gonna
have to finish it or they were gonna have to
waste some more time for me.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
Hey, one more on this with pitch counts. I know
you've talked about it a lot this week. Do you
think that it's something that needs to be revisited in
our sport? It really goes down to the minor league level,
where there's some starters that are baby so much for
a long period of time. Right, it's like, oh, we're
only going to let you go three innings or you know,
(17:40):
we're only gonna let you go fifty pitches, and then
a few months in maybe we'll extend things. Not every
org's doing this, but many of them are, right, they're
super careful, and let's be real. I mean, the sport
definitely has an arm injury epidemic going on. So I'm
not gonna act like I know what I'm doing. It
just doesn't sound like anyone knows what they're doing. So
do you think that there needs to be less of
a struck Sure, I mean, you're six six, two fifty,
(18:02):
maybe you can handle a little bit more than your
average starter.
Speaker 3 (18:07):
I think it just depends on the organization.
Speaker 4 (18:09):
I know, there's like a there's a lot of innings
that cover in the minor leagues, and then I mean
sometimes it's a guy's first year, so they're just trying
to do workload stuff. But I think it depends on
the guy and like how many innings they have in
the past, really worry about the pitch count and if
they need to go less or more. I think I
think there's a bunch of science behind behind the pitch count.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
Really, I was listening to some radio this morning and
your manager, Steven Vote Vote he was on there and
asked about the decision to leave you in as long
as he did, and he the comments he made were
effectively what you just said. I know this guy, I
know what type of work he does, and I know
(18:51):
he's going to take care of his body in between
these two starts. He's built to do this thing. And
it's specifically I feel this confidence I try him because
I feel like he can handle it because of what
you do between your starts. So do you do you
does that resonate for you in a way like is
that something that you are actually out here trying to foster?
(19:13):
And be like, yes, that's exactly what I want you
to feel when I get out there and pitch, that
I can't take care of myself and be ready to
go even if I throw more pitches one week, one
start over another.
Speaker 3 (19:23):
Yeah, one hundred percent I know Corey Kleeber.
Speaker 4 (19:26):
He's working with us now, and I've talked to him
plenty of times about what I need to do between
starts and what he did.
Speaker 3 (19:34):
So now now I see the mastarge therapist three times
a week.
Speaker 4 (19:38):
I get one the day after I start, and then
bullpen day, and then the day before I start. I
see the massage therapist and she's a big she's big
into my routine and I could could. I can't thank
her enough for what she does day in and day
out for me and just all the other pitchers.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
Man, there's nothing better than than the post start, actually
post any relief appearance to massage the best. I've also
been told that you in high school through back to
back no hitters. Is that? Is that right?
Speaker 3 (20:12):
Yeah? That is correct?
Speaker 2 (20:14):
So I have a question.
Speaker 3 (20:14):
Back to weeks, back to back weeks.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
Okay, I have a question because I don't mean to
toot my own horner, but I'm I did three, So
I guess the question is why didn't you pull off
that third one?
Speaker 4 (20:28):
Because I got taken out early pitchcount or not really pitchcount.
It was a five in game, so I can't really
count a five inning game.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
Ah, So you hadn't given up hits in that one either. Ah,
so it all makes sense. That explains why you want
to go one hundred and twenty six pitches and ountings.
Speaker 3 (20:43):
It makes I need to get my third one so
I can catch up with you.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
Maybe someday you'll get to do this.
Speaker 3 (20:51):
Yeah, yeah, it's it's beautiful.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
Wait, just to clarify real real quick. So you did
the two and then the third one was a shorter game,
so you did the five Benning No, no, but it's
not enough for a game.
Speaker 3 (21:02):
Yeah, it's not enough for a game. Can't count. Yeah, okay, okay,
but it's like kind of more in high school at least.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
Okay, kind of like good asterisk though, because there's nothing
else you could have done. I mean, you did not
give up any hits for the five, So that actually
like kind of brings Trevor down a notch. He was
he was coming in here. I got that in a row,
and Gavin's like, I kind of did.
Speaker 3 (21:24):
I mean, he's got he's got the full game under
his belt. I don't so true.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
True, Well, uh, you you've got something cooking in the
in the majors here.
Speaker 3 (21:32):
Man.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
It was awesome to watch We appreciate you joining us.
It was really fun game, cool to see even you know,
the crowd out there in New York, which can be hostile,
give you a nice standing oh at the at the
back end of that. So, Gavin, thanks for joining us. Man,
keep doing your thing. Yeah, I appreciate yo. Thanks for
having me.
Speaker 4 (21:47):
You
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