July 25, 2025 • 17 mins
Adam Barnard is joined by Marc Raimondi, ESPN reporter and author of "Say Hello To The Bad Guys" to talk about the death and legacy of Hulk Hogan, the nWo, and the longevity of the trio in popular culture.
Full article for The Sportster can be read here.
Special thanks to 10th Ward Barbershop - Proudly serving the historic 10th Ward in Lawrenceville and surrounding areas, 10th Ward Barbershop is a full service barbershop offering quality haircuts, beard trims, and hot shaves. Schedule your appointment with Finn Balor and Corey Graves' favorite barbershop today.
Host/Executive Producer: Adam Barnard
Additional Production/Narration: Sam Krepps
Engineer: Carl Pannell
Intro Music: Carl Pannell
Outro Music/Musical Accompaniment: Enrichment
Instagram/X/Threads/Bluesky: @thisisgoober | @sportsternews
A Butts Carlton Media production. Butts Carlton, Proprietor.
Full article for The Sportster can be read here.
Special thanks to 10th Ward Barbershop - Proudly serving the historic 10th Ward in Lawrenceville and surrounding areas, 10th Ward Barbershop is a full service barbershop offering quality haircuts, beard trims, and hot shaves. Schedule your appointment with Finn Balor and Corey Graves' favorite barbershop today.
Host/Executive Producer: Adam Barnard
Additional Production/Narration: Sam Krepps
Engineer: Carl Pannell
Intro Music: Carl Pannell
Outro Music/Musical Accompaniment: Enrichment
Instagram/X/Threads/Bluesky: @thisisgoober | @sportsternews
A Butts Carlton Media production. Butts Carlton, Proprietor.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Foundation Radio was brought to you by tenth Ward Barbershop,
a full service barbershop offering high quality haircuts, beard trims
and hot shaves. Tenth Ward Barbershop proudly serves the historic Lawrenceville,
tenth Ward and surrounding Pittsburgh areas. Adam frequents tenth Ward
Barbershop when he swings through the area and loves Ryan
Kainsley's their sharp precision on both his hair and beard needs.
(00:22):
But you don't have to take his word for it.
WWE superstars Finn Balor and Corey Graves frequent tenth Ward
Barbershop for their hair and beard needs. The team at
tenth Ward accepts walk ins, but schedules fill up quickly,
so the best way to see them is to make
an appointment at tenth Ward Barbershop dot com. That's one
zero thh Ward Barbershop dot com. Make sure to grab
(00:43):
some Silk Panther hair products in shop or online while
you're there. Schedule your appointment today to see Kane, Jordan
and the rest of the team at tenth Ward Barbershop today,
and we thank them for sponsoring the program. This is
(01:13):
Foundation Radio. Here is your host, Adam Barnard.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Peace worldand welcome everybody to a special conversation with the Sportster.
My name is Adam Barnard. Thank you so much for
joining me again today. My guest is an NFL reporter
at ESPN and author of the book Say Hello to
the Bad Guys, The Definitive Account of Wrestling's New World Order,
Mark RAMONDI. How are you, sir? Thank you for your time.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
I'm good, Adam, Thank you. I appreciate you being here.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
And obviously, the news of the day is the passing
of the immortal hul Cogan pass away today at age
seventy one. Tell me your immediate thoughts about the passing
of hul Cogan.
Speaker 4 (01:51):
Pretty emotional, just on a personal level, because not just
because I wrote a book about Hulk Hogan and the
nWo that only came out a few weeks ago, but
just as a guy in Hulk Hogan and a character
Hulk Hogan that I loved as a kid. You know,
I remember my first memory of watching wrestling was Hulk
Hogan versus Ultimate Warrior in nineteen ninety and Hulk Hogan
(02:14):
was someone that was synonymous with the pro wrestling business.
He was a household name because of his you know,
work in pro wrestling more, you know, more than anyone
else that's ever been before him and maybe even after him,
you know, as far as just in pro wrestling, and
just just a shock, you know, that that he has
passed away because he was he was, he had been active,
(02:35):
you know lately, he had been He just started this
new real American freestyle you know, amateur wrestling promotion, and
he was doing the real American beer stuff. He was
in the commercials, he was on WWE just a few
months ago, right in January, and uh, it just a
just a very very shocking and very sad a few
hours unfortunately.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
Yeah, And I know, you know, speaking to that, to
his legacy as well.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
I know a lot of us, especially in our generation
right the the the geriatric millennials as the kids say,
we are grappling with this duality of Hulk Hogan the
entertainer and the performer and Terry Belaya the individual. Based
on you know, everything you've you've researched on Hogan in
the book, and everything about the nWo and everything about
Terry Belaya the individual, what do you think Hulk Cogan's
(03:18):
legacy is going to be.
Speaker 4 (03:19):
That's a great question, and I think that it's complicated
as a complicated legacy. I think that in many cases,
in all mediums, you have to separate the art from
the artist, and I think that if you're asking about,
like you said, Terry Bleya, it might be a different story.
But as far as Hulk Hogan goes the character WrestleMania one,
wrestling was not a national mainstream thing in America until
(03:43):
WrestleMania one really, and then wrestle Mania three Andre the
Giant maybe the biggest match ever even you know, going
back to now that was.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
An eighty seven.
Speaker 4 (03:51):
And then the nWo, Right, you know, he has this
incredible run as a baby base where he sold out
more areenas than anyone, you know, sold more things than
anyone in the hit story of wrestling, and then he
turns bad at a point in time in wrestling where
rustling needed something. It was the industry was not doing
well in the early nineties, neither promotion, WWF or WCW.
And when he turned bad and joined up with Kevin
(04:13):
National Scott Hall to join the nWo to form the nWo,
that revolutionized the business because it became something where the
product was more adult. It was more realistic, it was grittier,
it was darker. Right at the same time that kind
of the countercultural revolution in the United States was happening,
and no one, no one wanted you know, the red
and yellow Hulk Cogan anymore. They wanted the you know,
(04:34):
the the black and white with the five o'clock shadow
and you know.
Speaker 3 (04:38):
Doing devious things.
Speaker 4 (04:39):
But people still, you know, kind of loved him anyway
because of that, and once again he went on this
run of selling out arenas and selling out stadium.
Speaker 3 (04:46):
His w'swww was beating ww.
Speaker 4 (04:48):
F for eighty three straight weeks and that was a
lot of it on the back of Hulk Cogan.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
So he had two separate runs.
Speaker 4 (04:53):
One is a babyface, one is a heel that that
set records that that did incredible business unlike we've got
ever seen before, and no one has ever done that before, Adam,
Like no one has had that. It's that so once
in a lifetime, you know, unique, incredibly special run.
Speaker 3 (05:09):
Two runs that he had in through.
Speaker 4 (05:11):
Different decades where he lifted the business up in both
of them. It's incredible.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
It's really a fascinating story when you really get down
to it and you really think about how unique that is.
You know, you have somebody like even comparable to today,
There really isn't anybody right like you have the Rock
who came back as a babyface at the beginning of
twenty twenty four becomes the final Boss. But really there's
no like I guess cultural significance in that, And that's
really a lot of what the book goes into, is
(05:36):
the cultural significance of the nWo. Again, as a child
of the nineties, I remember that moment I was watching
Bash at the Beach nineteen ninety six when the heel
turn happened. Holy crap, Hulk Hogan turns heel. I know
there's been a lot of conversation and story about WCW
and the nWo. You know, Guy Evans's book Nitro goes
into a real deep dive on the specifics and the
(05:58):
granularity of that. But in your reporting and your research
on this, do you think that the NWOL would have
been as impactful without Hulkogan being a part of it?
Because now Eric Bischoff and some other folks have talked
about the potential of maybe Sting being that person.
Speaker 3 (06:12):
What do you think in your analysis.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
Do you think do you think Hogan was that major
driving factor to the nWo being as successful as it was.
Speaker 4 (06:20):
He absolutely was one of the key driving factors, if
not the main driving factor of the nWo turn, you know,
becoming that in the beginning, right, because that heel turn
that we mentioned a few minutes ago, it was cataclysmic.
It was a cataclysmic moment in the history of wrestling,
the greatest heel turn of all time. It was shocking
because he was the guy. He was the man in
the business for a very long time. He was synonymous
(06:43):
with wrestling as a good guy, as the hero, as
the say your prayers at your vitamins guy, right, and
then he turns bad, and it's something that kind of
sent the entire industry.
Speaker 3 (06:54):
On its ear.
Speaker 4 (06:55):
And if it was staying or if it was someone
else in that position, I'm sure it would have been
a good wrestling state line. I'm sure that they would
have done good ratings for a few weeks, a few months.
But I don't think that we're talking about the nWo
twenty nine years later the way that we are. That
there's a book that you know that I wrote that's
out now about the nWo.
Speaker 3 (07:13):
If it wasn't Hulk Hogan as the third man. I
think that.
Speaker 4 (07:16):
There's there's no doubt in my mind that he was
the catalyst. Now you can say that Kevin Nash and
Scott Hall were the ones who brought, you know, the
cool factor and the authenticity to the nWo, and I
would agree with that, But as far as the star
power and as far as getting people who maybe were
not in the wrestling bubbles attention, that was Hulkogan.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
Now, I know, you know, obviously after the third man
is announced, Hogan does the turn and and I'm sure
you probably dive into in your book, but I'm just
curious too, for people who are listening and people who
are watching this, how much, of, if at all, was
there a true genuine power struggle between Hulk Hogan, Kevin Nash,
and Scott Hall as to who was going to lead
(07:55):
the nWo. Obviously we know that in the future, you know,
as the group's kind of split wolf Pack, Kevin Nash
takes over, hul Cogan takes over the w O Hollywood,
But how much of their in reality was there a
power struggle behind the scenes between the three as far
as who was going to lead the group?
Speaker 4 (08:12):
There absolutely was, and It started early and then they
kind of, you know, came to an understanding and it
kind of ebbed and flowed until ninety eight. And then
ninety eight things got pretty bad. You know, things got
pretty rough between Hogan and Nash specifically, and they almost
came to blows a few times. Eric Pitschell told me
that one of them had a gun in their bag
in August.
Speaker 3 (08:31):
Ninety eight during during a TV taping and.
Speaker 4 (08:34):
Things were boiling over because the a few things happened.
Sean Waldman got fired from ww RIGHT, and Hulk Hogan
did not fire him. But the feeling between with Kevin
Nash and Scott Hall Sharmaldan was their best friend, was
that Hulk Hogan and Eric Fischoff were making a political
statement to them that hey, you're not You're not as
(08:55):
big of a deal as you think you are. We're
going to fire your best friend and set up set
him packing, and that's what happened. They did that, and
Kevin Nash just got hol definitely felt that way about
the firing of Sean Waltman, and they blamed Hogan in
many cases, and that pissed them off because they were
very loyal to their friends and the wolf Pack broke
off from the NWL, right it was the nWo Black
and White against the Wolfpack, and you know, the summer
(09:17):
of ninety eight, Kevin Nash felt like Hogan is just
big footing the Wolfpack, like he you know, he is
making sure the wolf Pack is not you know, be
you know, getting these big matches, getting these big spots
because the main events were you know, Hogan and Dennis Rodman.
Right then it was Hogan against Jay Leno right in
these tag team matches in ninety eight, and then he
(09:37):
goes right to the Warrior again after you know, many
many years later after the nineteen ninety match at WrestleMania,
and Kevin Nash never got got a singles match against
Hulk Hogan until January ninety nine, which wasn't even a
real match. It was the finger Poke of Doom, as
wrestling fans know, which was a whole debacle and it's own.
We can probably do a whole interview about just that.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
Listen, we're going to we're going to come back to
that mark. You would just put a pin in that
b I might to the finger poker dude for sure.
Speaker 4 (10:01):
Yeah, So there there was real There was real bad,
hard feelings and real politics, and they always they always
seemed to kind of bury the hatchet after a while
because both of them knew that it was a business,
and both of them were making a lot of money,
and they knew that they it was better to have,
you know, each other to an extent on their on
their side than otherwise. And they both you know, Hulk
(10:22):
Hogan has passed away and Kevin Nasher you know, remained
a friend of him to this day.
Speaker 3 (10:26):
But in ninety eight, and that was that was kind
of the hot part of it.
Speaker 4 (10:30):
What there really was, Uh, it was it was pretty
it was pretty heated. It was it was it was
a pretty real rivalry backstage.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
You mentioned Jay Leno, obviously, Eric Bischoff and Hulk Hogan
hosting the Tonight Show, which had not been.
Speaker 3 (10:42):
Done at that time.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
I mean, it was very unusual for pro wrestling to
be a part of the mainstream culture. How important was
nWo to crossing over for professional wrestling into that cultural zeitgeist?
And do you think it's possible for a group to
do that again?
Speaker 3 (11:00):
Wow? Yeah, I mean it was.
Speaker 4 (11:01):
It was so important because like I said, you know,
Dennis Robmin comes over, he joins the nWo. And you know,
it's hard to explain to folks who were younger how
big of a deal with Dennis Robin was in the nineties.
Speaker 3 (11:10):
But he played on Michael Jordan's Chicago Bulls.
Speaker 4 (11:12):
He was a multiple time NBA champion and also a
guy that like wore wedding dresses out off the court,
and he was dating Madonna and Carmen Electra.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
He was in the gossip pages.
Speaker 4 (11:21):
He was a polarizing figure and a perfect fit really
for the nWo. The you know, the bad guy at
basketball with the bad guys of wrestling.
Speaker 3 (11:28):
So that was a big deal.
Speaker 4 (11:29):
And then Jay Leno, like you said, the Tonight Show,
it was the biggest late night show in America with
Jay Leno as the host, and there was an episode
where Hulk Hogan and Eric Bischoff took over the Tonight Show.
Speaker 3 (11:40):
They had a little, you know, a little shoving match
with Jay Leno. It was a big deal.
Speaker 4 (11:44):
It was It was part of the mainstream, you know,
the nWo was a mainstream.
Speaker 3 (11:48):
Storyline that a lot of people knew about.
Speaker 4 (11:49):
You couldn't go out of the house in ninety eight
ninety nine without seeing an nWo.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
Shirt out there now. I know you know you mentioned
the nWo shirts. I talked to Eric Bischoff a couple
of times. I've even had a chance to chat it
up with Hall, Nash and Hogan at certain points just
in person. Even today, you go to a SmackDown taping,
a raw taping and aw taping, You're going to see
people in nWo t shirts. And it speaks to the
(12:13):
popularity of that still inside of the American culture. What
do you think has made the nWo still so popular
almost thirty years later and what makes you what keeps
it in the cultural conversation.
Speaker 4 (12:25):
I think it was the symbolism of it because it
really hit in a time where, like we said before,
America was changing. You know, music was changing, media was changing.
It was it was not the cartoony stuff from the
early nineties anymore. It was not the music of the
eighties anymore. It was Nirvana, it was Pearl Jam, it
was gangster rap, it was NWA, Doctor Dre, Westside Connection,
(12:46):
it was stuff like that. And then like Marilyn you
know Manson, you know, very subversive stuff, counterculture type of thing,
and the nWo to me was one of the big.
Speaker 3 (12:54):
Points of that counterculture.
Speaker 4 (12:56):
Then the Attitude era became became that as well in
the WWF. And I think that's why because so many
and this is really what the book is about. At him,
It's like we a lot of us were watching wrestling
at that time. More than ten million people every Monday
night were watching, you know, in ninety eight and ninety nine,
and that's a pretty big part of the population. And
most of us were pretty young at that time, teens, twenties,
(13:18):
what have you.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
A little bit younger, a little bit older.
Speaker 4 (13:20):
And now we've all grown up and we've all entered
kind of the workforce, and we've entered kind of you know,
you know, regular society, and we brought that with us,
including the nWo.
Speaker 3 (13:28):
We brought it all with us, and it has.
Speaker 4 (13:31):
Become one of those things where you know, if you
how do you impact the culture, right, you impact the
people in the culture.
Speaker 3 (13:37):
And that's what it happened. That's what happened. And now
we brought up with us as.
Speaker 4 (13:39):
Adults and you're seeing it, you know, you're seeing the
cross shops still years later.
Speaker 3 (13:43):
You know, the Joel Embiid is doing it for the
seventy six ers.
Speaker 4 (13:47):
Tyrese Holleburten is wearing you know, DX shoes in the
NBA finals, and it's like that era of wrestling, which
I would argue THEWO you know started, it was a
catalyst for it. That era of wrestling is so beloved
as part of, you know, an American pop cultural moment,
and it still has relevance today because of that.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
One final question for you, Mark, I really appreciate your
time and chatting me with you today, and we're gonna
chat about this in long form later on as well,
because I'm very interested in the book.
Speaker 3 (14:13):
It's absolutely fabulous.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
Go out and pick it up today if you haven't
gotten it already, you know, as far as when you know,
WCW folds WW and Vince mcmahn pick up the property.
But a year later, the nWo integrates into the WWE
with less than spectacular results. Why do you think the
nWo didn't work in the WWE when they brought them in, Well,
(14:35):
it was.
Speaker 3 (14:35):
It was a lot of reasons. I mean, it had
been done before.
Speaker 4 (14:38):
And that's actually kind of funny because Scott Hall and
Kevin Nash when they started the nWo, one of the
things that they were very clear about to all the
creative folks at WSW and the producers, we do not
want to be a nostalgia act. If someone said, hey,
remember this happened, why don't we do something like this,
they shut it down immediately. They were like, we are
not doing something that had been done before. We were
only doing things that had never been done before. And
(14:59):
when the end w came back, it was like we
saw that already, you know, And it was like you
could only invade one time with the same group of people, right,
it was an invasion angle it was the outsiders. Pretty soon,
you know that that luster wears off, that that suspension
of disbelief wears off, and people, like anything else in
pop culture, things run its course. They have their runs
and then it's over, and then you have to evolve
(15:20):
and adapt. And that's what happened with Hulkogan Wrestle Madia eighteen, right.
They were able to adapt. He bases the Rock as
the bad guy. The crowd in Toronto didn't want to
boo hulk Hogan anymore. They wanted to cheer him, and
they did and they did. And that's one of the
cool things about wrestling is that the fans can tell
you what they want there's that interaction and that real
time feedback that does not exist in any other entertainment medium.
Speaker 3 (15:42):
And they used that and then Hulkogan went back to
being a good guy.
Speaker 4 (15:44):
He brought back the red and Yellow and then he
was he was that guy again for a long time.
And you know, it's hard, it's hard to kind of
duplicate the nWo. You asked me for if someone, if
another group could do that, I don't think so, you know,
I don't think at that level it was. It was
a different time, and I think the nWo is everlasting
because of that.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
Mark. I want to thank you so much for your
time and talking with me today about Hulkogan and your books,
Say Hello to the Bad Guys, how professional Wrestling's New
World Order changed America. It is out now, pick it up.
It is everywhere you can get your favorite books. Mark
RAYMONDI thank you so much for your time, Sory. I
really appreciate it.
Speaker 5 (16:19):
Thanks Adam.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
This episode of Foundation Radio is hosted, recorded, and produced
by Adam Barnard. Additional narration and production is provided by
the executive voice Sam Craps. Our mixing and engineering, as
well as our intro music is by Carl panell Our,
outro music and additional musical accompaniment are produced by Enrichment.
Follow Adam on X or Twitter or whatever and Instagram
(17:02):
at This is Goober, and follow the show on X
and Instagram at FND Radio Pod. Find our entire show
archive at Foundation Radio dot net. This has been a
Buttz Carlton Media production Butts Carlton proprietor
Foundation Radio was brought to you by tenth Ward Barbershop,
a full service barbershop offering high quality haircuts, beard trims
and hot shaves. Tenth Ward Barbershop proudly serves the historic Lawrenceville,
tenth Ward and surrounding Pittsburgh areas. Adam frequents tenth Ward
Barbershop when he swings through the area and loves Ryan
Kainsley's their sharp precision on both his hair and beard needs.
(00:22):
But you don't have to take his word for it.
WWE superstars Finn Balor and Corey Graves frequent tenth Ward
Barbershop for their hair and beard needs. The team at
tenth Ward accepts walk ins, but schedules fill up quickly,
so the best way to see them is to make
an appointment at tenth Ward Barbershop dot com. That's one
zero thh Ward Barbershop dot com. Make sure to grab
(00:43):
some Silk Panther hair products in shop or online while
you're there. Schedule your appointment today to see Kane, Jordan
and the rest of the team at tenth Ward Barbershop today,
and we thank them for sponsoring the program. This is
(01:13):
Foundation Radio. Here is your host, Adam Barnard.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Peace worldand welcome everybody to a special conversation with the Sportster.
My name is Adam Barnard. Thank you so much for
joining me again today. My guest is an NFL reporter
at ESPN and author of the book Say Hello to
the Bad Guys, The Definitive Account of Wrestling's New World Order,
Mark RAMONDI. How are you, sir? Thank you for your time.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
I'm good, Adam, Thank you. I appreciate you being here.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
And obviously, the news of the day is the passing
of the immortal hul Cogan pass away today at age
seventy one. Tell me your immediate thoughts about the passing
of hul Cogan.
Speaker 4 (01:51):
Pretty emotional, just on a personal level, because not just
because I wrote a book about Hulk Hogan and the
nWo that only came out a few weeks ago, but
just as a guy in Hulk Hogan and a character
Hulk Hogan that I loved as a kid. You know,
I remember my first memory of watching wrestling was Hulk
Hogan versus Ultimate Warrior in nineteen ninety and Hulk Hogan
(02:14):
was someone that was synonymous with the pro wrestling business.
He was a household name because of his you know,
work in pro wrestling more, you know, more than anyone
else that's ever been before him and maybe even after him,
you know, as far as just in pro wrestling, and
just just a shock, you know, that that he has
passed away because he was he was, he had been active,
(02:35):
you know lately, he had been He just started this
new real American freestyle you know, amateur wrestling promotion, and
he was doing the real American beer stuff. He was
in the commercials, he was on WWE just a few
months ago, right in January, and uh, it just a
just a very very shocking and very sad a few
hours unfortunately.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
Yeah, And I know, you know, speaking to that, to
his legacy as well.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
I know a lot of us, especially in our generation
right the the the geriatric millennials as the kids say,
we are grappling with this duality of Hulk Hogan the
entertainer and the performer and Terry Belaya the individual. Based
on you know, everything you've you've researched on Hogan in
the book, and everything about the nWo and everything about
Terry Belaya the individual, what do you think Hulk Cogan's
(03:18):
legacy is going to be.
Speaker 4 (03:19):
That's a great question, and I think that it's complicated
as a complicated legacy. I think that in many cases,
in all mediums, you have to separate the art from
the artist, and I think that if you're asking about,
like you said, Terry Bleya, it might be a different story.
But as far as Hulk Hogan goes the character WrestleMania one,
wrestling was not a national mainstream thing in America until
(03:43):
WrestleMania one really, and then wrestle Mania three Andre the
Giant maybe the biggest match ever even you know, going
back to now that was.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
An eighty seven.
Speaker 4 (03:51):
And then the nWo, Right, you know, he has this
incredible run as a baby base where he sold out
more areenas than anyone, you know, sold more things than
anyone in the hit story of wrestling, and then he
turns bad at a point in time in wrestling where
rustling needed something. It was the industry was not doing
well in the early nineties, neither promotion, WWF or WCW.
And when he turned bad and joined up with Kevin
(04:13):
National Scott Hall to join the nWo to form the nWo,
that revolutionized the business because it became something where the
product was more adult. It was more realistic, it was grittier,
it was darker. Right at the same time that kind
of the countercultural revolution in the United States was happening,
and no one, no one wanted you know, the red
and yellow Hulk Cogan anymore. They wanted the you know,
(04:34):
the the black and white with the five o'clock shadow
and you know.
Speaker 3 (04:38):
Doing devious things.
Speaker 4 (04:39):
But people still, you know, kind of loved him anyway
because of that, and once again he went on this
run of selling out arenas and selling out stadium.
Speaker 3 (04:46):
His w'swww was beating ww.
Speaker 4 (04:48):
F for eighty three straight weeks and that was a
lot of it on the back of Hulk Cogan.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
So he had two separate runs.
Speaker 4 (04:53):
One is a babyface, one is a heel that that
set records that that did incredible business unlike we've got
ever seen before, and no one has ever done that before, Adam,
Like no one has had that. It's that so once
in a lifetime, you know, unique, incredibly special run.
Speaker 3 (05:09):
Two runs that he had in through.
Speaker 4 (05:11):
Different decades where he lifted the business up in both
of them. It's incredible.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
It's really a fascinating story when you really get down
to it and you really think about how unique that is.
You know, you have somebody like even comparable to today,
There really isn't anybody right like you have the Rock
who came back as a babyface at the beginning of
twenty twenty four becomes the final Boss. But really there's
no like I guess cultural significance in that, And that's
really a lot of what the book goes into, is
(05:36):
the cultural significance of the nWo. Again, as a child
of the nineties, I remember that moment I was watching
Bash at the Beach nineteen ninety six when the heel
turn happened. Holy crap, Hulk Hogan turns heel. I know
there's been a lot of conversation and story about WCW
and the nWo. You know, Guy Evans's book Nitro goes
into a real deep dive on the specifics and the
(05:58):
granularity of that. But in your reporting and your research
on this, do you think that the NWOL would have
been as impactful without Hulkogan being a part of it?
Because now Eric Bischoff and some other folks have talked
about the potential of maybe Sting being that person.
Speaker 3 (06:12):
What do you think in your analysis.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
Do you think do you think Hogan was that major
driving factor to the nWo being as successful as it was.
Speaker 4 (06:20):
He absolutely was one of the key driving factors, if
not the main driving factor of the nWo turn, you know,
becoming that in the beginning, right, because that heel turn
that we mentioned a few minutes ago, it was cataclysmic.
It was a cataclysmic moment in the history of wrestling,
the greatest heel turn of all time. It was shocking
because he was the guy. He was the man in
the business for a very long time. He was synonymous
(06:43):
with wrestling as a good guy, as the hero, as
the say your prayers at your vitamins guy, right, and
then he turns bad, and it's something that kind of
sent the entire industry.
Speaker 3 (06:54):
On its ear.
Speaker 4 (06:55):
And if it was staying or if it was someone
else in that position, I'm sure it would have been
a good wrestling state line. I'm sure that they would
have done good ratings for a few weeks, a few months.
But I don't think that we're talking about the nWo
twenty nine years later the way that we are. That
there's a book that you know that I wrote that's
out now about the nWo.
Speaker 3 (07:13):
If it wasn't Hulk Hogan as the third man. I
think that.
Speaker 4 (07:16):
There's there's no doubt in my mind that he was
the catalyst. Now you can say that Kevin Nash and
Scott Hall were the ones who brought, you know, the
cool factor and the authenticity to the nWo, and I
would agree with that, But as far as the star
power and as far as getting people who maybe were
not in the wrestling bubbles attention, that was Hulkogan.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
Now, I know, you know, obviously after the third man
is announced, Hogan does the turn and and I'm sure
you probably dive into in your book, but I'm just
curious too, for people who are listening and people who
are watching this, how much, of, if at all, was
there a true genuine power struggle between Hulk Hogan, Kevin Nash,
and Scott Hall as to who was going to lead
(07:55):
the nWo. Obviously we know that in the future, you know,
as the group's kind of split wolf Pack, Kevin Nash
takes over, hul Cogan takes over the w O Hollywood,
But how much of their in reality was there a
power struggle behind the scenes between the three as far
as who was going to lead the group?
Speaker 4 (08:12):
There absolutely was, and It started early and then they
kind of, you know, came to an understanding and it
kind of ebbed and flowed until ninety eight. And then
ninety eight things got pretty bad. You know, things got
pretty rough between Hogan and Nash specifically, and they almost
came to blows a few times. Eric Pitschell told me
that one of them had a gun in their bag
in August.
Speaker 3 (08:31):
Ninety eight during during a TV taping and.
Speaker 4 (08:34):
Things were boiling over because the a few things happened.
Sean Waldman got fired from ww RIGHT, and Hulk Hogan
did not fire him. But the feeling between with Kevin
Nash and Scott Hall Sharmaldan was their best friend, was
that Hulk Hogan and Eric Fischoff were making a political
statement to them that hey, you're not You're not as
(08:55):
big of a deal as you think you are. We're
going to fire your best friend and set up set
him packing, and that's what happened. They did that, and
Kevin Nash just got hol definitely felt that way about
the firing of Sean Waltman, and they blamed Hogan in
many cases, and that pissed them off because they were
very loyal to their friends and the wolf Pack broke
off from the NWL, right it was the nWo Black
and White against the Wolfpack, and you know, the summer
(09:17):
of ninety eight, Kevin Nash felt like Hogan is just
big footing the Wolfpack, like he you know, he is
making sure the wolf Pack is not you know, be
you know, getting these big matches, getting these big spots
because the main events were you know, Hogan and Dennis Rodman.
Right then it was Hogan against Jay Leno right in
these tag team matches in ninety eight, and then he
(09:37):
goes right to the Warrior again after you know, many
many years later after the nineteen ninety match at WrestleMania,
and Kevin Nash never got got a singles match against
Hulk Hogan until January ninety nine, which wasn't even a
real match. It was the finger Poke of Doom, as
wrestling fans know, which was a whole debacle and it's own.
We can probably do a whole interview about just that.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
Listen, we're going to we're going to come back to
that mark. You would just put a pin in that
b I might to the finger poker dude for sure.
Speaker 4 (10:01):
Yeah, So there there was real There was real bad,
hard feelings and real politics, and they always they always
seemed to kind of bury the hatchet after a while
because both of them knew that it was a business,
and both of them were making a lot of money,
and they knew that they it was better to have,
you know, each other to an extent on their on
their side than otherwise. And they both you know, Hulk
(10:22):
Hogan has passed away and Kevin Nasher you know, remained
a friend of him to this day.
Speaker 3 (10:26):
But in ninety eight, and that was that was kind
of the hot part of it.
Speaker 4 (10:30):
What there really was, Uh, it was it was pretty
it was pretty heated. It was it was it was
a pretty real rivalry backstage.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
You mentioned Jay Leno, obviously, Eric Bischoff and Hulk Hogan
hosting the Tonight Show, which had not been.
Speaker 3 (10:42):
Done at that time.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
I mean, it was very unusual for pro wrestling to
be a part of the mainstream culture. How important was
nWo to crossing over for professional wrestling into that cultural zeitgeist?
And do you think it's possible for a group to
do that again?
Speaker 3 (11:00):
Wow? Yeah, I mean it was.
Speaker 4 (11:01):
It was so important because like I said, you know,
Dennis Robmin comes over, he joins the nWo. And you know,
it's hard to explain to folks who were younger how
big of a deal with Dennis Robin was in the nineties.
Speaker 3 (11:10):
But he played on Michael Jordan's Chicago Bulls.
Speaker 4 (11:12):
He was a multiple time NBA champion and also a
guy that like wore wedding dresses out off the court,
and he was dating Madonna and Carmen Electra.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
He was in the gossip pages.
Speaker 4 (11:21):
He was a polarizing figure and a perfect fit really
for the nWo. The you know, the bad guy at
basketball with the bad guys of wrestling.
Speaker 3 (11:28):
So that was a big deal.
Speaker 4 (11:29):
And then Jay Leno, like you said, the Tonight Show,
it was the biggest late night show in America with
Jay Leno as the host, and there was an episode
where Hulk Hogan and Eric Bischoff took over the Tonight Show.
Speaker 3 (11:40):
They had a little, you know, a little shoving match
with Jay Leno. It was a big deal.
Speaker 4 (11:44):
It was It was part of the mainstream, you know,
the nWo was a mainstream.
Speaker 3 (11:48):
Storyline that a lot of people knew about.
Speaker 4 (11:49):
You couldn't go out of the house in ninety eight
ninety nine without seeing an nWo.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
Shirt out there now. I know you know you mentioned
the nWo shirts. I talked to Eric Bischoff a couple
of times. I've even had a chance to chat it
up with Hall, Nash and Hogan at certain points just
in person. Even today, you go to a SmackDown taping,
a raw taping and aw taping, You're going to see
people in nWo t shirts. And it speaks to the
(12:13):
popularity of that still inside of the American culture. What
do you think has made the nWo still so popular
almost thirty years later and what makes you what keeps
it in the cultural conversation.
Speaker 4 (12:25):
I think it was the symbolism of it because it
really hit in a time where, like we said before,
America was changing. You know, music was changing, media was changing.
It was it was not the cartoony stuff from the
early nineties anymore. It was not the music of the
eighties anymore. It was Nirvana, it was Pearl Jam, it
was gangster rap, it was NWA, Doctor Dre, Westside Connection,
(12:46):
it was stuff like that. And then like Marilyn you
know Manson, you know, very subversive stuff, counterculture type of thing,
and the nWo to me was one of the big.
Speaker 3 (12:54):
Points of that counterculture.
Speaker 4 (12:56):
Then the Attitude era became became that as well in
the WWF. And I think that's why because so many
and this is really what the book is about. At him,
It's like we a lot of us were watching wrestling
at that time. More than ten million people every Monday
night were watching, you know, in ninety eight and ninety nine,
and that's a pretty big part of the population. And
most of us were pretty young at that time, teens, twenties,
(13:18):
what have you.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
A little bit younger, a little bit older.
Speaker 4 (13:20):
And now we've all grown up and we've all entered
kind of the workforce, and we've entered kind of you know,
you know, regular society, and we brought that with us,
including the nWo.
Speaker 3 (13:28):
We brought it all with us, and it has.
Speaker 4 (13:31):
Become one of those things where you know, if you
how do you impact the culture, right, you impact the
people in the culture.
Speaker 3 (13:37):
And that's what it happened. That's what happened. And now
we brought up with us as.
Speaker 4 (13:39):
Adults and you're seeing it, you know, you're seeing the
cross shops still years later.
Speaker 3 (13:43):
You know, the Joel Embiid is doing it for the
seventy six ers.
Speaker 4 (13:47):
Tyrese Holleburten is wearing you know, DX shoes in the
NBA finals, and it's like that era of wrestling, which
I would argue THEWO you know started, it was a
catalyst for it. That era of wrestling is so beloved
as part of, you know, an American pop cultural moment,
and it still has relevance today because of that.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
One final question for you, Mark, I really appreciate your
time and chatting me with you today, and we're gonna
chat about this in long form later on as well,
because I'm very interested in the book.
Speaker 3 (14:13):
It's absolutely fabulous.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
Go out and pick it up today if you haven't
gotten it already, you know, as far as when you know,
WCW folds WW and Vince mcmahn pick up the property.
But a year later, the nWo integrates into the WWE
with less than spectacular results. Why do you think the
nWo didn't work in the WWE when they brought them in, Well,
(14:35):
it was.
Speaker 3 (14:35):
It was a lot of reasons. I mean, it had
been done before.
Speaker 4 (14:38):
And that's actually kind of funny because Scott Hall and
Kevin Nash when they started the nWo, one of the
things that they were very clear about to all the
creative folks at WSW and the producers, we do not
want to be a nostalgia act. If someone said, hey,
remember this happened, why don't we do something like this,
they shut it down immediately. They were like, we are
not doing something that had been done before. We were
only doing things that had never been done before. And
(14:59):
when the end w came back, it was like we
saw that already, you know, And it was like you
could only invade one time with the same group of people, right,
it was an invasion angle it was the outsiders. Pretty soon,
you know that that luster wears off, that that suspension
of disbelief wears off, and people, like anything else in
pop culture, things run its course. They have their runs
and then it's over, and then you have to evolve
(15:20):
and adapt. And that's what happened with Hulkogan Wrestle Madia eighteen, right.
They were able to adapt. He bases the Rock as
the bad guy. The crowd in Toronto didn't want to
boo hulk Hogan anymore. They wanted to cheer him, and
they did and they did. And that's one of the
cool things about wrestling is that the fans can tell
you what they want there's that interaction and that real
time feedback that does not exist in any other entertainment medium.
Speaker 3 (15:42):
And they used that and then Hulkogan went back to
being a good guy.
Speaker 4 (15:44):
He brought back the red and Yellow and then he
was he was that guy again for a long time.
And you know, it's hard, it's hard to kind of
duplicate the nWo. You asked me for if someone, if
another group could do that, I don't think so, you know,
I don't think at that level it was. It was
a different time, and I think the nWo is everlasting
because of that.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
Mark. I want to thank you so much for your
time and talking with me today about Hulkogan and your books,
Say Hello to the Bad Guys, how professional Wrestling's New
World Order changed America. It is out now, pick it up.
It is everywhere you can get your favorite books. Mark
RAYMONDI thank you so much for your time, Sory. I
really appreciate it.
Speaker 5 (16:19):
Thanks Adam.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
This episode of Foundation Radio is hosted, recorded, and produced
by Adam Barnard. Additional narration and production is provided by
the executive voice Sam Craps. Our mixing and engineering, as
well as our intro music is by Carl panell Our,
outro music and additional musical accompaniment are produced by Enrichment.
Follow Adam on X or Twitter or whatever and Instagram
(17:02):
at This is Goober, and follow the show on X
and Instagram at FND Radio Pod. Find our entire show
archive at Foundation Radio dot net. This has been a
Buttz Carlton Media production Butts Carlton proprietor
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