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Marc Bernstein (00:40):
Good morning
America.
How are you?
Good morning America.
How are you?
It's a cloudy day, but we'refeeling great inside the studio
today and we have Ryan Sullivanis with me again today how we
doing.
He was on our last show andRyan is the founder and CEO of
(01:00):
Podcast Principles.
And our guest today is Sandeshand we will formally introduce
him in a minute.
And we always have a topic ofthe day and I always, I always.
I just mentioned this, but wetalked about getting to know
people deeper on the last showthat we did with Ryan and a book
(01:22):
by David Brooks on that subjectand, um, I always.
What I love about this show isthe more I talk to people, the
more I get to know them.
And in talking about, uh, forour guests today, for Sandesh,
we were talking about, uh, the,you know, what passions do you
have?
Because you know we have, wehave some very serious questions
(01:44):
.
We're going to ask him at theend.
But so what passions do youhave?
Because you know we have, wehave some very serious questions
.
We're going to ask him at theend.
But so, what passions do youhave?
And he lit up and he said, oh, Ilove the fish.
And Ryan said I love the fishtoo.
So I realized there's a littletopic there which is because
people, there's a, there's a,there's an allure, allure there,
there you go.
Another pun Because Sandeshsaid, by the way, he's hooked on
fishing.
(02:04):
So we've got all these littlepuns going.
So there's an allure aboutfishing that I have, but yet I'm
not a fisherman.
I've done a little bit here andthere, but it's one of the
things I aim to do at some point.
So I'm going to ask Ryan first,and then we'll do Sandesh, and
(02:25):
then we'll introduce himformally.
So you fish, what do you do andwhat is the allure to you of
fishing?
Ryan Sullivan (02:34):
Yeah, so you know
I grew up on this.
I grew up in a super rural area, so like that's something that
everybody would fish hunt.
That was just very normal,right.
It was almost weird if youdidn't do that.
But my dad also was really intoit.
He would go to a thousandislands every year and go
fishing.
So now I bass fish a lotbecause I live in South Jersey
and there's a lot of bassfishing there, but there's also
pike and pickerel and a littlebit of everything catfish but I
(02:55):
love to see bass jumping out ofthe water.
So that's it for me.
That's what I enjoy and I justlike the kind of serenity of it.
Marc Bernstein (03:02):
Nice.
Serenity is one of the thingsthat appeals to me about it.
Sandesh, how about you?
You do a different kind offishing we just talked about, so
let's talk about that, yeah, Ithink for me.
Sandesh Sukumaran (03:12):
I think
anything.
You know, you put me next to abody of water with a fishing
pole, that's all I need.
You know, I think that's likethe zen moment for me.
I forget everything, all theworries in my life.
It goes away, it justdisappears and I can just sit
there for hours and my last castif I do then there's another 30
(03:35):
minutes after my last cast.
My real last cast is.
So it's that way for me.
It's just the Zen moment when Ipick up a fishing rod and go.
It doesn't need to be aparticular fish, it can be
anything, you know.
Marc Bernstein (03:51):
So serenity Zen,
I love it.
Did you start fishing lures?
Sandesh Sukumaran (03:55):
our dads tell
us about their you know success
stories about fishing and forme it started with hearing about
(04:21):
his fishing expeditions or youknow success stories.
So we used to go for vacationsevery year to his ancestral home
and it was right, his house wasright next to a river and for
one month it was like pure funfor us.
Me and my brother we used to bethere.
You put us like if there was 48hours in a day, we would be
(04:41):
there like 40 hours where wasthat?
Marc Bernstein (04:43):
where did you
grow up, by the way?
Where did you?
Sandesh Sukumaran (04:45):
so I grew up
in bombay, uh, which is now
called mumbai, but my, myparents, my dad, came from a
state called kerala, which is,uh, it's called heaven on earth,
it's called god's own countryand it's it's unbelievable.
It's like if you were to to flyin a plane and get down you
(05:05):
would feel like you're landingin Amazon jungle.
It is so lush.
Marc Bernstein (05:12):
Is that South
India?
Sandesh Sukumaran (05:14):
Yeah, it is.
If you imagine the peninsula,it's on the south west side of
India.
Very nice it was like the besttime of my life.
Nice, that's where I picked upfishing from nice.
Marc Bernstein (05:29):
So we learned a
little bit about fishing and and
the benefits to the human soulof it today, absolutely so
Sandesh sukumaran is the founderand ceo of outcome logics, a
tech enabled staffing firm.
Recognized as a recognized as aTech 50 finalist by the
Pittsburgh Technology Council.
He's coming to us fromPittsburgh Pennsylvania, by the
(05:51):
way, the other side of the stateWith over two decades of
experience in technologyrecruitment and enterprise
talent solutions.
Sandesh has built OutcomeLogics around speed, precision
and innovation, leveragingproprietary tools like screen
talent to deliver expert-vettedcandidates faster.
A self-funded entrepreneur,he's passionate about
(06:14):
transforming hiring throughcompetency-based screening and
has worked with major clients inretail, banking, mortgage
utility industries.
Sandesh is also an advocate forresponsible AI and hiring and
is actively building peernetworks for senior IT and
business leaders.
So welcome Sandesh.
Sandesh Sukumaran (06:35):
Thanks, Marc.
Formerly nice to meet you, Ryan.
Ryan Sullivan (06:40):
You as well.
Marc Bernstein (06:42):
Sandesh, one
thing that I just read, that
just occurred to me you're maybeone of the only tech founders,
because a lot of what you do isbased on technology that is
self-funded.
And that kind of leads me tohow did you start, how did you
do that, how did you get intothis career in the first place
(07:04):
and how did you go about?
How did you get into thiscareer in the first place and
how did you go about funding thecompany?
Sandesh Sukumaran (07:08):
Absolutely.
Thanks, Marc.
Again.
You know, back in the day, whenthe career choices for most of
expatriates like me, when westart back home, it's either you
had to be a doctor or anengineer and I chose to be in
(07:30):
talent acquisition or recruiting.
You know, about 25 years backthere was a big boom.
I'm sure you all remember.
There was a big scare of Y2K.
That happened during 98, 99 and2000.
And there were a lot of needfor Y2K engineers and of course,
(07:52):
to find them you needed someonewho's good at networking, good
at finding people and bringingthem on board.
So a services company fromPittsburgh hired me in Mumbai to
find these people and I used toliterally go out and sip a cup
(08:13):
of chai.
Chai is tea.
Marc Bernstein (08:16):
I'm a big fan of
chai, by the way.
I love chai Chai guy here.
Sandesh Sukumaran (08:21):
You should
have chai in Mumbai.
They make it a very smallquantity but it is the best,
it's heaven.
So I used to go out and recruitthese people.
I helped that company recruitabout 100 or so Y2K engineers
and when there was a positionthat became available in
Pittsburgh office, they kind oftransferred me over to
(08:42):
Pittsburgh and that's how myjourney started in the
recruiting side.
Marc Bernstein (08:47):
So, and then?
What happened then?
How long did you work for thatcompany?
Sandesh Sukumaran (08:52):
So I worked
with them for about 11 or 12
years until 2011.
That's where I was superhands-on, found a lot of good
qualities that I had, sharpenedmy skills as a recruiter and
found out there were a lot ofchallenges that came along
(09:17):
because some of theinefficiencies that were there
with lack of tools and such.
But then in 2011, I went on togo and work for a startup.
I was one of the co-foundersthere.
I was mandated to build aprofessional services for them.
We scaled that company to about3000 employees globally and
(09:40):
during the peak of pandemic, Idecided to start my own company.
When it got acquired, it was agreat opportunity, when the
event happened, for me to kindof take my options and do what I
wanted to do about making surethat candidates or people who
(10:07):
are looking for opportunitiesreally are able to highlight
their competencies and how couldI make sure that those
competencies are what gets themto the next stage and it pairs
the customer and the candidatesin the right way.
So that's that's what what ledme to do what I'm doing right
(10:29):
now.
Marc Bernstein (10:30):
So I want to get
back to that, but you answered
the funding question, so theoptions you got from that
company is what funded your newcompany.
Sandesh Sukumaran (10:36):
Yeah, you're
right, Marc, you know.
So I I've kind of took that andof course I it would be a real
miss if I um did not mention.
Um, my wife had a significantrole, because it's very hard to
use that fund which you alreadygot in the bank account to go in
(10:58):
and start a new experimentright, because at that point you
don't know what is going tohappen.
So a big salute to my wife forallowing me to do what I'm doing
right now.
Marc Bernstein (11:09):
I hear you, my
wife you know I'm on an
entrepreneurial journey myselfand she's a saint for a lot of
the things I've done that youknow there were experiments and
risks and and she's been throughit all with me, so I completely
understand that.
You know she's, you knowthere's the woman behind the man
.
Sometimes these days it's theman behind the woman, but
(11:30):
whatever it is it's, it's apowerful thing.
Sandesh Sukumaran (11:34):
Absolutely.
Marc Bernstein (11:35):
So you were
starting to talk about what you
were striving to do by matchingthe right talent with the right
companies, and you have a uniquetake on how you do that.
You want to talk about that alittle bit.
Sandesh Sukumaran (11:45):
Absolutely so
.
That comes, Marc, from some ofthe inefficiencies that I had as
a talent acquisitionprofessional right.
So what typically used tohappen is when you're especially
if you're working for aservices company or staffing
company and if you are not atechnologist, you get handed
(12:11):
over different kind of roleswith different skills associated
with it, and which often leadsto you being specialist in
sourcing or finding candidates.
But what happens is when youfind that candidate and you
notice that they have all theskills or the role mentioned
(12:33):
which you were looking for, yougot the guy right.
But what is there beyond thatis finding out what is the
competency level that thecustomer is looking for, and if
you start asking them withoutknowing it yourself, it's
failure written all over it.
So I used to spend a lot of timetalking to those candidates who
(12:58):
there are two scenarios that Iwant to highlight here.
One is there are candidates whowould willfully exaggerate the
competency level right For, ofcourse, various reasons they
want better rate, they want toget the job.
(13:19):
And there are the secondscenario where candidates
genuinely don't know what theircompetency level is, but to get
the job they would always wantto say they are 10 out of 10 or
9 out of 10, right, but is thatthe reality?
Would always want to say theyare 10 out of 10 or 9 out of 10,
right, but is that the reality?
And, as a recruitingprofessional, if you are not a
technologist, are you the rightperson to make that assessment?
(13:39):
And, because of that,inefficiencies generally when
the hiring managers get a resumein hand, which is another topic
that I want to talk about isthat transformation did not
happen and it is still.
I'm sad, but it is the truth isnot a lot of companies see that
the need for it, which is whatwe have built.
(14:00):
So it is our ability to findthese candidates, our ability to
use a technologist, not arecruiter, to find those
competency areas and make surethat they have the required
competency, which you know iswhat we provide generally.
Marc Bernstein (14:20):
We're about to
take a break, but I have one
quick question.
You must measure the successrate after that, In other words,
how many people stick retention, and I have to think that that
improves the retention greatlyand that's something that you
can present to potentialcustomers.
Am I right about that?
Sandesh Sukumaran (14:39):
Absolutely,
Marc.
I think if you find the righttalent with the right competency
, they end up being at least 80%, or 70% to 80% more likely to
stay on the job longer than whatthey signed up for, compared to
, I think, if you didn't putthem in the right place, if they
didn't have the rightcompetency.
Marc Bernstein (14:59):
And you measure
that and you're able to document
that that's the case, correct,definitely.
That sounds like a verypowerful value proposition to me
, absolutely.
So with that we're going totake a quick break and we'll be
right back on Founders Forum.
Announcer (15:13):
Hiring the right
talent doesn't have to be a
gamble.
At Outcome Logix, we understandthat it's not just about
filling positions quickly.
It's about getting the rightskills for your specific project
.
We go beyond the resume byleveraging industry experts to
screen and validate thecompetencies that truly matter
for your team.
Our platform combines expertinsights with cutting edge AI to
ensure the candidates weprovide are a perfect fit for
your team.
Our platform combines expertinsights with cutting-edge AI to
ensure the candidates weprovide are a perfect fit for
(15:33):
your project's needs.
So your team is ready todeliver results faster, smarter
and with precision.
Whether you're building outtech development or application
teams, we tailor our solutionsto match your unique
requirements.
Don't waste time on mismatchedhires.
Partner with Outcome Logix tostreamline your hiring process
and get the talent you needevery time.
Visit outcomelogix.
com to learn how we can help youhire the right way today.
Marc Bernstein (16:04):
We are back on
Founders Forum with our guests
today Sandesh Sukumaran and RyanI know you're chomping at the
bit to ask some questions.
Ryan Sullivan (16:14):
Oh yeah, so why
don't we?
There's many that I have, butI'll ask one for the younger
generation here.
Marc Bernstein (16:20):
You are a man of
many questions.
Ryan Sullivan (16:21):
I have unlimited.
You don't want to hang out withme because it never ends.
This is why I do podcasting fora living right.
So what are you seeing forthose?
You know, let's just say youknow, maybe millennials, or even
to Gen Z right, a lot of thetopics and conversations around
hiring with, say, my age groupI'm on 26 is, oh, you know, they
(16:42):
just job hop and you know, theyjust you know.
Do they want to find the rightcompany or um?
Do they want to look around andexperience all these different
jobs?
Do you have any sort of justeven opinion or anecdotal
experience about maybe thisyounger generation um in the job
Marc?
I'm just curious, or a way topredict that, yeah sure, or
predictions wherever you want totake it, Sandesh.
Sandesh Sukumaran (17:05):
Yeah, I think
, looking at the positives you
know we can all talk about thenegatives, but one thing that
stands out you know we all haveour.
My son would be hitting the jobmarket in several years and we
have family members who are inat that stage what I feel is, I
(17:26):
think Millennials, or people whoare coming out, you know they
have an advantage of put highenergy.
You know they they are.
They have a lot of fresh ideas.
They are not tainted by anypast failures that they bring
along.
You know, if you have,especially, I think, in the
(17:48):
technology side of the world, alot of customers, they tell us
to not send me anyone who is 15years or more.
You know.
So, you need those people whoare never biased by the failures
.
They are, you know, willing totake an idea, contribute to it,
make it more better and thenexecute on it at high energy,
(18:11):
longer hours.
You know they do want tosuccess.
You know they want to make surethat they are able to implement
those ideas and make itworkable.
Ryan Sullivan (18:22):
Yeah and, yeah,
and at any age, that's what any
company would want, right?
Sandesh Sukumaran (18:27):
Definitely.
Ryan Sullivan (18:27):
That's the
mindset.
Sandesh Sukumaran (18:29):
And I think
one more thing that I feel that
could play into their advantageis, of course, they need to be
focused, which is what the topicis, the product the topic is.
(18:51):
But AI I feel especially theGen AI would make the
experiences a little bit moredemocratic in nature.
The disadvantage a lot of freshengineers or fresh graduates
had is hey, you don't have thefunctional experience.
Now, that will be an evenplaying field for those
professionals because you knowinformation is at the fingertip,
you can just prompt it and getwhat you needed.
Ryan Sullivan (19:12):
Yeah, and now
your job is not.
Jobs are not necessarily taken,they're changed, right.
And now your job is to learnhow to use ai for your job.
And I know, uh, I just helpedmy girlfriend use chat gpt and
she's a teacher, um, and itworks for everybody.
So I won't continue on that.
Marc Bernstein (19:31):
It's a whole
nother rabbit hole, but I'll
pass it back well, I just wantto comment that I think this
whole thing of gen z and youknow I mean you know a lot of
people complain about thatyou're you're looking at it as a
positive and saying these aregreat people to put in these
positions.
Sandesh Sukumaran (19:47):
Absolutely,
and I think we what, as part of,
I think, our evolution in ourcompany is, we have created a
client interface, which I wantedto talk to you about, and we
have specifically made a sectioncalled strivers.
And we specifically made asection called strivers and I
hope, since this is a radio show, maybe I'm being quoted here,
but I wanted to call it nightowls, but I changed it and said
(20:10):
it's strivers.
What this means is, you know,specifically segment out people
who have less than five yearsexperience zero to five years
and put them in that category.
If you've already seen it, youknow I have my first driver
video that we put in withsomeone who has less than five
years.
He went on and said hey, thisis who I am, you know.
(20:33):
So we are creating that segmentfor people who are less than
five years experience zero tofive years.
Marc Bernstein (20:39):
Very cool.
That's a very positive message.
And you wanted to mention aboutthe interface.
Do you want to do that?
And then I want to get to yourfuture vision.
Sandesh Sukumaran (20:48):
Yeah so I
think what we?
I feel that we are in thebusiness of innovation, right,
and we happen to be in thestaffing side.
That's what we did and you know.
So we are applying all thefunctional knowledge that we had
, but we are essentiallyinnovators.
(21:09):
One such, I feel, is innovationneeds to be making sure
experiences that eachstakeholder have that work with
us is paramount.
Have that work with us isparamount, which includes each
section of stakeholders that wedeal with, including our
internal stakeholders recruiters, account managers, hr managers,
(21:30):
candidates that we deal withincluding our vendors.
We build those interfaces.
Now where our vendors get tosee their candidate journey, now
where our vendors get to seetheir candidate journey.
I want to talk about our clients.
Imagine this most of the 90% ofthe client managers, they walk
(21:57):
into an interview with a resumein hand which has all the
ingredients of the jobdescription which was written,
and with AI, that's anotherthing that the other side black
side of AI is candidates canwrite their JD resume based on
job description.
So if you have not transformedfrom going to an interview with
(22:18):
a resume, you are losing a lotof time.
Going to an interview with aresume, you are losing a lot of
time.
So, talking about some of theefficiencies that we built in is
our customers can see thecandidates, who these candidates
are and who screened thesecandidates based on competencies
.
And now we are also putting likeI mentioned about strivers, we
(22:38):
are putting fractional talentpool because, as we go into in
the next three or four years, alot of these shops will be very
fractional in nature, includingchief technology officers being
fractional, cfos beingfractional.
So we have one segment which isfractional talent pool.
Uh in, and some of them who areso specific, like you know, we
(23:03):
can't discount people who have10, 15 years experience.
They're specialists in certainareas, so we are calling them as
Elite 10.
We have a section for that.
Marc Bernstein (23:14):
Gotcha, so I
think that's going to lead to
your future vision.
So, if we're, if this is May,it's May now of 2025, and we're
talking and it's May of 2028,and you're looking back on the
last three years, Sandesh, whatwould have to happen and this
could be personal, it could beparticularly business, but
(23:35):
anything you want to mentionwhat does your life look like
for you to say that that was asuccessful three-year period in
your business and personal life?
Sandesh Sukumaran (23:45):
uh, like the
you mean the last three years,
or?
no future three years, yeah, thenext three years, I being in
the technology side uh, being aninnovator it is.
It is a bug that never keepsbiting you.
It keeps biting you forever.
(24:06):
So what I've seen is, if youare innovating, one innovation
leads to the other innovationand it keeps going.
So I see us being, in additionto be the best staffing company
in the world.
We will evolve to become MSPand also a marketplace where you
(24:33):
could find fractional talent oreven interviewers, that who can
come in and interview for you.
So it would be MSP, managedservice provider and plus a
marketplace.
Those are the innovations itwill go into.
Marc Bernstein (24:48):
So basically, to
be the best in class through
new innovations would be yourvision.
Sandesh Sukumaran (24:52):
Absolutely
absolutely.
Marc Bernstein (24:53):
Anything on the
personal side three years from
now.
Sandesh Sukumaran (24:56):
I want to
travel a lot.
I want to, I think, see goingto many places along with my
family and, you know, open moreoffices throughout the world.
Marc Bernstein (25:11):
Do you have
other offices today?
Sandesh Sukumaran (25:13):
We have
office in Kochi and a place in
UAE in.
Marc Bernstein (25:19):
Dubai oh,
interesting.
And how many employees do youhave total today?
Place in UAE in Dubai Okay, oh,interesting.
And how many employees do youhave total today?
Sandesh Sukumaran (25:23):
So we have
about 20 people here in the US
and about 10 people in India.
Marc Bernstein (25:29):
Gotcha, do you
need to staff up yourself
further in order to accomplishyour vision?
Sandesh Sukumaran (25:38):
We are
looking to keep the staff.
Of course there would be a 20%,30% increase in the staff, but
being a technology company, werely a lot more on the
technology side of the worldinstead of, you know, bloating
ourselves up.
Marc Bernstein (25:56):
I imagine AI is
going to be a big piece of what
you do going forward as well.
Sandesh Sukumaran (26:00):
Yeah, we are
definitely looking at using AI
in a responsible way.
We're looking to put agovernance team in place to make
sure that whatever we do, it isdone responsibly.
Marc Bernstein (26:13):
Being used
responsibly.
Yeah, I thought you were sayingthat.
Excellent, so I'm sorry, I justgot interrupted here on my uh,
on my iPad, um, let me just uh,there we go.
Sorry about that.
So, uh, fandesh, um, what ifyou were looking back, um, and
(26:40):
you could speak to your youngerself, what advice would you give
you?
Sandesh Sukumaran (26:45):
I would say
there's nothing called as 90% in
.
It has to be 100%.
You can't be waiting to beperfect.
You know start, do the rightthing when no one is watching
you.
You know, those are the thingsthat I would tell my 20 year or
(27:10):
you know younger self.
Marc Bernstein (27:11):
You said a lot
there.
That's a lot of good.
That's a lot of good stuff.
I love that.
One last thing, because we haveabout half a minute Back to
fishing for a second.
You mentioned steelheads andthe experience of fishing for
steelheads.
Sandesh Sukumaran (27:26):
Want to just
talk about that real quick, my
God.
You want me to go back and doit right now, but the steelhead
fishing season is over and Ican't wait for it to start again
in October.
That is the best experience Ihad.
To see hundreds of fish infront of you and, unfortunately,
if you are not good at it, youknow it can be as boring as well
(27:51):
, but steelhead fishing is thebest thing I've done so far, by
far hands down.
Marc Bernstein (27:59):
Well, there you
go, for you fisher people out
there, fish steelheads, check itout, check it out.
Hey, thanks so much, Sandesh.
It's been a great show.
We really appreciate you beinghere and I wish you all the best
as your future progress comesalong.
And thank you all for listeningtoday on founders forum.
We'll see you next week.