October 18, 2024 • 35 mins
Imagine rebuilding your life from the ground up after hitting rock bottom. Our guest, Josh Drago, takes us on a remarkable journey from his conservative Christian roots, military successes, and musical achievements to confronting life-altering personal challenges. Josh bravely shares how his unfulfilled need for validation led him down a destructive path with addictions and infidelity, and how a pivotal moment in 2021 was the catalyst for his transformative journey back to healing through faith.
Navigating the tumultuous waters of rebuilding a marriage shattered by infidelity, Josh discusses the critical role of accountability and the power of support groups tailored for those battling unwanted sexual behaviors. We shed light on brain science in addiction and explore practical strategies like eliminating triggers to maintain sobriety. Importantly, Josh's story extends beyond personal recovery—highlighting how helping others facing similar battles becomes an empowering and integral part of his journey, illustrated through the practical resource, the "Field Guide to Freedom."
Throughout this episode, we draw inspiration from biblical stories, emphasizing the importance of community and authentic connections in one's healing journey. We explore how desperation can drive transparency and accountability, and serve as a stepping stone towards genuine change. The episode culminates in a heartfelt prayer for hope and healing, inviting you to embrace discomfort and authenticity while engaging with our podcast as you embark on your own path to freedom and transformation.
Check out Josh's field guide here.
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Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome to Foxhole Symphony, a podcast about the
transformational value of men inauthentic community.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
In our foxhole.
Men are equipped to buildrelationships that foster
belonging, accountability andgrowth.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
Stop believing the lie that you can thrive in
isolation and instead join us onthe journey from broken to
whole.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
Hello everyone, nate, call me the Maestro, and we are
back in the foxhole where weactively pursue belonging,
accountability and growththrough authentic relationships.
No masks, no agendas, just iron, sharpening iron.
Steve and Mark are in thefoxhole and they have a special
guest with them today.
We're about to get a peekbehind this man's curtain and
(00:49):
something tells me it's going tobe a familiar territory to many
of us.
Let's open our hearts and ourminds and our favorite notes app
, because here we go.
Speaker 4 (01:00):
Hey, welcome back to Foxhole Symphony Podcast.
I'm Sarge here with my goodfriend and dear brother, mark.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
Hey, how are you brother?
Good man, good morning, whichprobably isn't the right thing
to say, because it could beevening when you're listening,
right?
Speaker 4 (01:14):
It could be, but listen, I don't know about you.
In my world, the birds aresinging, they are happy and
hungry, and the sun is shining,and it's not a steam room.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
Hey, I'm really happy about that.
Yeah, I know that not steamroom thing was like 61 this
morning here in Jersey.
Speaker 4 (01:32):
Woo, unbelievable.
That's chilly.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
What a good day we have coming up for everybody.
You want to introduce our guest.
Speaker 4 (01:42):
Absolutely so.
We've got a guest in thefoxhole this morning, excited
about this.
His name is Josh Drago and Josh, you know, has had a call on
his life, and his life's taken,taking some turns and he's doing
some things to not only seekthe Lord more deeply, but that
he might use his story to impactthe hearts and lives of men.
(02:03):
So that's what we're going tounpack this morning, excited
about that.
And so, josh, welcome to theFoxhole.
Thank you, gents, it's a superpleasure to be here, Glad to
have you and, yeah, we wouldlove to jump right in and just
introduce our listeners to Joshand just to learn a little bit
(02:24):
more about you, your story, talkto us a little bit about your
faith journey and then we cankind of get into what the Lord
has brought you to more recently.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
And the book the Field Guide to Freedom.
Can't wait.
Speaker 5 (02:38):
Yeah, yeah.
So for me.
I grew up in a conservativeChristian home, like millions of
other men around the country.
My parents are still married tothis day and, by all accounts,
I had good parents.
I've got many memoriesthroughout my childhood of my
dad teaching me how to ride dirtbikes and four wheelers, and I
was in the marching band.
(02:58):
My parents were always at myevents and they were always
there.
What did you play?
Speaker 1 (03:04):
What's that?
What instrument did you play?
What's that?
Speaker 5 (03:06):
What instrument did you play?
Oh, trumpet, okay, yep.
And so then graduated highschool, went into the Marines,
spent four years in there andgot out of the Marines, got
married, moved from New Englanddown to South Carolina.
My wife and I have always goneto church Anytime the church was
open.
You know that, that story.
(03:27):
We were there.
So we got plugged in with thechurch here locally in South
Carolina and then, around 2015,we started fostering.
And it was that season of mylife when we were foster parents
, when life got harder than Iever could have imagined, when
my life imploded all around me.
The reason it imploded allaround me was because I never
(03:48):
addressed the earlier stuff inlife, because I had good parents
, I grew up in a two-parent home, I didn't have any obvious
trauma, and so I didn't addressthe lacking in my life me
pursuing validation, the lackingin my life, the me pursuing
(04:08):
validation, even going back tohigh school.
Now, looking back, you know Iplayed the trumpet, but I was
the best trumpet player in theband because I wanted that
validation of hey, look at me,look how good I am.
When I joined the military, Ididn't join nothing against the
Army or the Navy, but I joinedthe Marines because that is the
hardest branch and I wanted thatpride of look at me, look at
how much of a man I am.
And all of that came back to asa kid.
(04:30):
I was never told that I amenough.
I was never told that, nomatter what I do or what I don't
do, I am loved.
And so I brought that with mesubconsciously, I didn't know I
did, but I brought that with me.
Then, when life got super hard,I was still searching for that
answer of am I enough, am Iloved?
(04:52):
I searched for it in militaryservice.
I had searched for it in careeraccolades.
I had searched for it in women.
Wouldn't you know it?
Women provided that answer morethan anything else.
And uh and so, along the way, Ibecame a member of the world's
most non-exclusive club thatnobody wants to be a part of.
(05:12):
Men who fall to sexual sin.
Uh and so, uh, through theprocess of fostering, um, I had
become addicted to porn.
Um, I could not stop myself,and when it got to a certain
point, I was looking at pornquite often.
The digital women wereproviding that need.
(05:32):
As good as it was.
How much more so would thephysical women provide for that
physical need, or not even aphysical need, but the emotional
need.
And that bridge to cross is notvery long at all to go from
digital women to real life women.
And so I had multiple affairs onmy wife.
The whole thing came crashingdown in early 2021 when I got
(05:55):
found out, and I got found outto such a degree that I couldn't
deny it.
I could try and spin it, butinstinctively I knew that I
couldn't.
And so in my worst moment, Ihad called my wife and I said
honey, there's a lot of thingsthat we need to talk about, but
(06:16):
if you'll have me, I'll dowhatever it takes.
And it was that moment when shesaid the five words that will
forever change my life.
She said I will always have youand you want to.
You want to see a man ugly cry.
You see him in his worst momentand his wife say I will always
have you.
And so I didn't recognize it atthe time, but as as my wife and
(06:37):
I began to heal because thatwas the catalyst for us to
finally heal from all of ourthings that we had ignored for
so long Um, and and I can sharea little bit of kind of what
I've learned about the healingprocess how to do that Um, but
that phrase, I will always haveyou.
It was like my soul was asponge and I had waited my
entire life to hear those exactwords.
(06:58):
I firmly believe that God usedmy wife in that moment to say
those words at that exact, righttiming because it wasn't her
that was saying that, it was.
It was God himself that wassaying to me God, I will always
have you.
Like you, you are finallyexperiencing now the
unconditional love that I'vealways wanted to give you,
(07:18):
because you recognize that youhaven't earned it.
You could never.
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (07:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (07:24):
Yeah, I was.
Speaker 4 (07:24):
I'm so glad.
I'm so glad you said that,because it's exactly what I was
thinking when you said thosewords.
You know what?
What an incredible.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
And we've heard you know, mark, and I've heard
stories like that before youknow, with no-transcript that
(08:27):
several guests who have, be itporn or or other addictions you
know could could be alcohol,could be drugs, could be any
number of things could be workRight and splits the family.
Speaker 4 (08:39):
so yeah, god bless you, josh.
That, yeah, exactly, I mean itis a miracle.
It is a miracle.
It's a miracle to have thatloving grace, um, you know, in
in the midst of the consequencesof that sin albeit, you know,
perhaps divorce or what have youright falling apart but still
have the love and and grace andhave some semblance of a
(09:01):
relationship salvage.
But it sounds like, josh, youand your wife are still together
.
Speaker 5 (09:05):
Yeah, so it took us.
Statistically, on average, ittakes about two and a half years
for a marriage to recover frominfidelity.
But that assumes during thattwo and a half year period that
you're hard at work, you'rebeing diligent in the steps you
need to take.
So if you have that moment ofcoming clean but then you don't
start those steps, the recoveryprocess is exponentially longer.
(09:32):
So for us, yeah, it took abouttwo, two and a half years for us
to get back to kind of normalcyand of course we had glimpses
of normalcy and intimacy andbonding together fun moments
throughout.
But really to get back to adeep level of intimacy where we
are beginning, she's beginningto trust me and I am beginning
to be permanently okay with thelevel of submission that I need
(09:53):
to have in my life.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
So you got found out in 21, two to three years.
Right, You're here, it's 2024.
And there's a journey connecteddots from that, this moment and
when God put the field guide tofreedom on your heart, and
where that's going and turns, asI'm sure you can imagine.
Speaker 5 (10:18):
So initially, when everything happened for us and I
said to my wife, joy, I will dowhatever it takes, and I was
committed to that.
And so I joined a 12-stepprogram that was more geared for
chemical addictions, which isnot always as helpful for
process or behavioral addictions.
So over the course of a fewmonths I realized that that
(10:41):
wasn't right for me.
So I switched to anotherrecovery group that my church
hosted at the time that wasspecific for sexual addictions
and the term unwanted sexualbehavior.
So not just addictions, but, uh, many who have had affairs or
they've gone to um the massageparlors, you know things like
that.
We've heard it all.
And so I went through thatcurriculum and it was in that
(11:06):
curriculum where I learned a lotabout the brain science, of why
do we do what we do.
Why is it so hard for men tobreak free from this?
And not just men, but 40% ofAmerican women also qualify as
being addicted to unwantedsexual behavior.
We think it's a male problem,but it's very quickly becoming
universal.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
Yeah, dopamine is a ubiquitous drug, right.
Speaker 5 (11:28):
Exactly, and it's self-produced in the brain, so
you don't need a dealer, you arethe dealer, which makes it so
hard to beat it.
And so it was in thatcurriculum, where it curriculum
where, uh, it's called theconquer series.
Um, I really started to uncoverthe why behind my behavior.
But if I, if I didn't implementthe accountability that I
(11:49):
needed to keep it at bay, itwould be kind of like, if you've
been diagnosed with cancer butyou keep eating and doing all
the things that have caused thecancer in the first place, you
can't expect your body torectify itself.
Um, if you continue to put thetoxins in.
And so you need theaccountability you need to keep
all the things away.
Um, and so I started doing that.
(12:11):
I I love the movie Braveheart,one of my favorites of all time,
but it's got a nude scene in it, so I had to throw it away.
Band of Brothers I love it.
It's got a nude scene in it.
I can't watch it.
Speaker 3 (12:26):
I had to get rid of everything.
Speaker 5 (12:27):
I had a clean house.
I had to have a clean slate.
I had to have theaccountability on every device
that I have access to to makesure that there's visibility.
That way it forces the awkwardconversations.
If I were to have a relapse andthere's been some awkward
conversations if I were to havea relapse and there's been some
awkward conversations, notalways because of a relapse, but
(12:47):
you know, maybe something cameup on my YouTube feed and I
lingered on it a little bit toolong and it's not quite a red
flag, but it's a yellow flag andso having those awkward
conversations, you know.
And so I did that, and then Istarted leading a recovery group
and it was in that leading ofthe recovery group where I
really started to see a patternas my focus shifted from me to
(13:10):
others, and that is a naturalprogression of the healing
process.
It needs to go to that Throughand through.
There's been study after studythat has shown, of the 12 steps
in every recovery program, theone that has shown of the 12
steps in every recovery program,the one that has the biggest
impact on long-term sobriety, isthe 12th step helping others.
And so helping others has to bea part of our healing process.
And so once I stepped into that, I discovered the unfortunate
(13:36):
reality that most men, whenpresented with reality, that
most men when presented with, uh, I guess, the hard truth that
they need to get rid of this intheir life.
And it doesn't have to besexual sin, it could be anything
right.
But when you're, when you'represented with that hard truth
of getting rid of it, whateverit is, uh, we resist it, we
don't want to do what we have todo, or we don't know
(13:58):
practically how to do it, and sowe don't do it.
And so, over and over again,week after week, I heard men
come back and say you know what?
I relapsed again.
It was the box of old phonesthat I've got in the garage just
in case my phone dies.
I don't have accountabilitysoftware on that, and that's I
had a relapse.
So I'd say, okay, well, throwaway, throw away the phones.
(14:22):
You'd come back the next weekand say it was another phone.
I only threw away one of them.
There's seven more, and so thehardest deceitful, yeah.
And so that's why I wrote thefield guide to freedom.
It's it's uh, it kind of it's ashort read.
Um, it's intended to be a shortread.
It's intended to be a shortread.
It's also intended the designof it is.
(14:42):
It looks like a military fieldmanual, so it's totally
ambiguous.
You can read it on an airplaneand the person next to you will
not know whether or not you'restruggling with a sexual sin or
you're just trying to formhealthy habits habits, um, so
it's not like uh, you open thislike every man's battle, right?
(15:03):
You open that up and everybodyaround you knows you're trying
to find freedom from unwantedsexual behavior.
You read this book, nobodywould know, um.
So I designed it that way tokind of lift that veil of shame,
um, so that guys can read itand not feel that shame, um,
cause who, who doesn't want tohave good habits?
Right, um, right and uh.
But really the design of it isis it's laid out so that we kind
(15:25):
of we cover the brain scienceof it and how did we get here?
And then lays out why we needto change.
Because God, god's word, isclear.
If you read the book of booksof Joshua and judges, it lays
out basically Joshua's fight forfreedom into the promised land
and then how it all went wrongin the book of Judges, and
that's the story of all of us.
(15:46):
We have to fight for ourfreedom and we have to continue
the fight and it has to bethorough and it has to be
complete, wow.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
All right, I'm going to grab a couple of things.
I'm sorry to interrupt you, butyou just I can't help myself.
So in the middle of yourjourney, the brain this is, you
said.
This is where I got into thebrain science and the why, the
behavioral part.
And let's just together, forfun, dive into our brother
Paul's story in Romans 7.15,right, which I will paraphrase
(16:15):
for brevity, and say why am Idoing this Right?
That question we have all askedourselves.
So can you distill your messageto men in community about that?
Why do we find ourselves doingthings we know that we should
not be doing?
Speaker 5 (16:36):
Yeah, oh man, that is such a complex question, yeah.
Speaker 4 (16:41):
Oh man, that is such a complex question, I know.
Speaker 5 (16:49):
So we only got like 30 seconds.
Yeah, no, it's so good though,because Paul understood this.
We all have this conflictingnature within us.
We want to do what is right,but we can't do it.
We keep gravitating towardswhat is wrong, towards what is
unhealthy, and that's becausewhat is unhealthy is so
appealing, it's so pleasurable,it's so, it feels so good.
But the reality is that goodhabits never feel good in the
(17:12):
moment, but they feel good inthe long term.
Bad habits always, always, feelgood in the near term, but they
have deadly consequences in thelong term.
Amen, and so we don't have along-term view when it comes to
bad habits.
So that's number one.
We need to think long term, weneed to think eternally.
Where will this habit lead me?
But within the brain itself.
(17:34):
It's so fascinating We've beenable to actually map the brain
synaptic pathways.
Fascinating We've we've beenable to actually map the brain
synaptic pathways and, uh, youcan trace a thought and a
feeling as it, as it travelsthroughout the brain, going
across synaptic pathways and allthe different neurotransmitters
that are produced within thebrain and reuptake inhibitors,
and you know all these differentthings.
Um, but essentially, if it'skind of like, uh, uh, an old
(17:57):
farm road.
The more we do, the more weperform a habit, the more that
old farm road gets entrenched,until a certain point when, if
you've ever driven on it on anold farm road, you don't even
have to steer anymore.
All you have to do is tap thegas and the tractor will go
exactly where you need it to go,because that is so ingrained in
(18:18):
the dirt.
And that's the way our brainworks too.
That's we.
We call it muscle memory.
You know Tiger Woods?
He's.
He's out there hitting the clubthousand times a day.
Tom Brady, whoever your athleteof choice is, they practice as
many times as they do.
Uh the, the 10,000 hour rule.
Uh the, uh K?
Uh.
Kevin Anders I think his namewas who came up with the 10,000
(18:39):
hour rule.
That's the premise of the10,000 hour rule that the more
we do something, the better weget at it.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
And master it, yep.
Speaker 5 (18:45):
And that's what Paul is talking about.
I believe that he has donesomething so many times that now
he's doing it automatically.
Speaker 3 (18:53):
Why do I do this?
Speaker 5 (18:55):
It's because you can't stop it.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
Your brain is wired to do this Right.
Well, I I I think Paul hintedat this and I've heard you say
this before, and where I go withwith Paul's message and yours,
both in the book and justlistening to you and other
podcasts is part of the reasonsI do this over and over is
because I don't have a communityaround me, I don't have an
accountability partner, I don'thave other men there with me so
(19:25):
that I can turn to them.
I see, often enough I do itbecause, oh, no one's watching,
no one will know, right, but ifyou commit what one part of
authentic community that Sargeand I have recognized and hope
flourishes is look, sometimesyou just have, you desperately
(19:45):
need someone next to you, right,To just look.
It could be a hug, it could bea pat on the head, it could be
an attaboy, it as well could bea kick in the ass.
You know that's like whoa, stopright there.
You called it yellow flag, redflag, what having those guys
around us, what Sarge and I dofor each other in our lives?
Whether there's 1500 milesbetween us or a cup of coffee
(20:08):
over a table, the distancedoesn't matter.
What matters is our hearts areconnected and God's in the
middle of it.
Can you speak to that a littlebit?
Speaker 4 (20:18):
Let me jump onto that real quick, because I think you
know you said a word that is sokey to this, and it's
desperation.
Right, and Josh said earlierlike he was brought to his knees
when he was found out and hewas 100% committed to do
whatever it is he needed to do.
(20:38):
It was out of sheer desperation.
Right, I will do whatever ittakes, because what's at risk?
My marriage, my family right,Like this is it?
I'm found out that desperationis a beautiful catalyst to
commitment, right?
Because, short of that, I mean,just like the phones.
(21:00):
Just like the phones, right?
Like, oh yeah, I got rid of allthe phones except this one.
It's the same thing withaccountability.
Oh, yeah, I want accountability.
Do you really wantaccountability?
Do you really want connection?
Do you really want authenticityand transparency?
Are you truly ready to bringdown the veil and be completely
(21:20):
seen?
Well, if you're not in a placeof sheer desperation, the truth
is you're probably not.
You're probably going to holdback just enough to go back to
the vomit, like a dog does, Ifyou really want to, if you
really need to, just to reserveor conserve.
(21:42):
So, Josh, go ahead.
I'm sorry to cut you off, butit's just that I wanted to jump
on that word desperation.
Speaker 5 (21:48):
No, that's so good man.
Yeah, Desperation createssubmission, that's the only way
that I can put it.
And to your point, Mark, aboutthe accountability and community
yeah, I mean, look at the storyof Nehemiah the city had been
ransacked.
Speaker 1 (22:03):
I love it.
Speaker 5 (22:03):
The walls were destroyed and Nehemiah did not
rebuild the city by himself.
No, if you read I think it'schapter three in Nehemiah he
details this family protectedthis section of the wall.
This family rebuilt thissection of the wall.
Speaker 1 (22:21):
That's all that chapter is is hey this is the
community of people that rebuiltthe city.
I'm sorry, I just love thatstory so much because Nehemiah
had a vision right and it wasmainly to rebuild the city, but
he knew that if there were fourmen in the family, two had to
build and two had to have swordsand protect the two builders.
I just think it's such a greatlike common sense story about
(22:43):
real life.
Thank you for bringing that up.
I love that.
Speaker 5 (22:46):
Yeah, absolutely.
And even like Jesus, when hesent the disciples out, he
didn't send them out one by one,he sent them out two by two.
All throughout scripture we seeauthentic community, brother
watching brother, and the reasonthat I got into the mess that I
was in is because of a lack ofcommunity, a lack of
authenticity.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
Yeah, well, how important is that in your life
now?
Why don't we just jump there,tell us about what your life is
like now?
And do you have accountabilityin your life beside your wife?
Speaker 5 (23:18):
I do, yeah.
So, um, in in the calling thatGod has placed on my life.
So, uh, just for brevity sakeand there's a whole story behind
how God has spoken this into me, and and why not but, um, uh,
god has called me to speak lifeinto the hearts of men and to
use my story to help them changecourse.
And so, in that calling um, Idon't do that on my own, I
(23:38):
submit that to other wise, holymen in my life, and so
everything I do podcastinterviews, speaking engagements
, things like that, books that Ihave planned is submitted to
men around me, to my wife and toGod.
We have to have submission toall three of those, and if
you're not married, that's fine,but you still need to be
(23:59):
submitted to other three ofthose.
And if you're not married,that's fine, but you still need
to be submitted to other men andto God.
For me, what that looks like is,at least once a week I have an
accountability conversation withmy accountability partner, and
we're not just accountabilitypartners.
He just came over last night tomy house and he's writing his
own book, so we kind of workedthrough the structure of it and
I'm helping him to write thatbook.
So it's not just accountability.
(24:20):
We're brothers, we're friends,but once a week we do have a
devoted conversation to say hey,how are you doing with the
temptation?
How are you doing with theyellow flags, are you?
Do you feel yourself gettingdistracted, reverting back to
old habits?
Is there anything that you'vehidden from your wife this week?
Let's make sure we rectify that.
We do have those devotedconversations and we need to.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
That's hardcore.
Speaker 5 (24:46):
But it needs to be hardcore.
When I told my wife whatever ittakes, I meant whatever it
takes.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
I love that, love that Interesting you mentioned
in passing early on out of highschool into the Marines, in
passing early on out of highschool into the Marines.
And I have family and my son'sbest friend is in the Marines,
now nephew in the Navy, so onand so forth.
So a little experience andwe've had guests that have been
in the military.
So you're in the Marines wherethey teach you a whole lot about
(25:13):
self-control and discipline,and you come out and it's just
like right, and I'm I'm notpointing out your flaws.
What I'm saying is that evensomeone who traveled the path
that you were on, wherediscipline and self-control are
literally drilled into you, youcan still wander out.
(25:36):
You know it happens toeverybody.
It doesn't matter who you areor what your profession is or if
you know we.
We hear about people falling allthe time in the news.
Even though I don't listen tothe news, you can't miss it,
right?
Whether it's a sports star oran actor or somebody, or in
politics and in crashing andburning.
Crashing and burning I thinkyou use the words dumpster fire
(25:58):
in another podcast I heard youtalking about which is a good.
That's a good visual.
I get that one, but I guess I'mthis is more commentary that
I'm here to say it doesn'tmatter, the enemy will take a
shot at you, no matter where youare or what you're doing, and
you need to be prepared.
Wouldn't it be great, josh, ifsomebody listening to this
(26:20):
podcast actually said you know,before I have my dumpster fire,
I'm going to take action, I'mgoing to go to my wife and tell
her how important this is to me,that I am faithful to you, et
cetera, et cetera.
Speaker 5 (26:32):
Yeah.
So I was just having aconversation recently with a man
who that's where he's at hedoesn't want to put in the risky
effort, and it is risky,especially if your wife, like me
.
I had told my wife for years,oh no, this isn't something I
struggle with, and it was, offand on something that I
struggled with.
And so how could I thenbacktrack and say you know what?
(26:53):
No, this is something that Istruggle with, and so I think we
need to just accept that thisis something every man struggles
with, and so I think we need tojust accept that this is
something every man struggleswith, specifically sexual
addiction.
But we've all got something,even if it's not unwanted sexual
behavior Right.
But the way I described it tothis man is I live right near a
forest and the forest managementservice for that particular
(27:15):
forest, every few years they doa controlled burn to get rid of
the underbrush and make surethat the forest is healthy.
If they don't do that, theyrisk wildfires.
And that's exactly what gettinghealthy in this area of our
life preemptively, proactively,looks like.
It's a controlled burn.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
That's a good analogy .
Speaker 5 (27:34):
Yeah, you need to get rid of this stuff in your life.
If you don't, you're risking awildfire.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
I like that.
Speaker 4 (27:39):
Yeah, and I and I would just uh, maybe, as a
little bit of an exclamationpoint, um, you know, I think
there's, there's this trap rightOf, uh, maybe, what success
looks like, Right, and if and ifsuccess looks like the absence
of a certain behavior, right,we're, we're, we're probably at
(28:02):
risk of continuing to fail, andand so, you know, um, you know,
and, and you know, michael,right, uh, mark, you know,
michael, michael talks aboutthis, right, uh, michael Cusick,
and um, you know, uh, it's,it's, it's more about seeking
(28:23):
God's face above everything andeveryone else.
Right, it is success.
Success is measured by personalintimacy with God, not
production.
It can't be production, justlike in our work lives, right,
just like in every area of ourlife.
It's no different.
It's no different, it's whatChris Bruno says presence over
production.
Right, just like in every areaof our life.
It's no different, it's, it'sno different, it's what Chris
(28:43):
Bruno says presence overproduction.
Right, success should bemeasured by intimacy with God
and it should be the only goalof our lives.
And so, surrendering, you know,we, we talked, you talked about
surrender and the requirementfor surrender.
You know, it reminded me thatsurrender is to the
accomplishment of God's purposes.
Right, it's to theaccomplishment of God's purposes
.
Right, it's to theaccomplishment of God's purposes
in our lives and that comesthrough intimacy with Him.
(29:06):
And there's a cost.
There's a cost, but we live for.
You know the returns beyondwhat we can see, and you know as
devoted followers of Jesus, andso, yeah, I don't know, just
some thoughts from my end around.
You know surrender and success,right.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
I love it.
Josh, tell us a little bitabout I'm thinking about the
catalysts in your life.
You've been very kind andhonest and thank you for your
vulnerability and candor aboutyour life and the journey.
So now, now you feel that ourFather, our Lord and Savior, our
(29:46):
God, has called you to speakinto men's lives.
Right, I think those are thewords you use.
What does that look like?
Just tell us your vision forthe future and help us
understand how men can engagewith you.
I mean, obviously, buying thebook would be a good idea it
sounds like but just help us seeyour trajectory now.
Speaker 5 (30:07):
Yeah, uh, so I have my own plans.
whether or not they are God'splans are yet to be seen, but uh
, nice of you to admit that butmy plans, uh, you know what I,
how I see God using my story sofar in whatever gifting I may or
may not have is.
You know I've spoken at mychurch a number of times within
(30:29):
the ministry and I go to areally large church here in
South Carolina.
So I've spoken to, you know,two to three hundred guys on
topics from shame, how we allwear a mask.
What do you do with what Godsays to you?
That kind of those kinds oftopics.
I've spoken at a couple of men'sconferences, written this book.
(30:49):
You can engage with me onsocial media, so Instagram and
Facebook.
And, by the way, if you're inthe realm of unwanted sexual
behavior, there is a way for youto have social media in a safe
way.
So I have discovered that Ihave kind of restored that in my
life.
So you can engage with me onInstagram and Facebook and then
(31:11):
at the my website, the fieldguide to freedomcom, just kind
of keep up with everything thatI've got going on.
I will have, I think by thetime this episode comes out,
I'll have the small group studyguide that is coming out to uh,
to go with the book.
Uh, because really to to yourpoint, mark uh, freedom does not
exist.
It will never exist in a silo.
(31:31):
You know, you, to use your youranalogy of the foxhole.
I was in the Marines for fouryears.
I never was in a foxhole bymyself.
You always have a brotherbeside you.
Speaker 1 (31:41):
Right.
Speaker 5 (31:42):
And so if you, if you want freedom from whatever
behavior, habit, addiction,whatever you want to label it,
if you want freedom from that,you've got to do that in
community, and so I've got thesmall group study guide coming
out That'll walk you through thefield, guide to freedom and
really help you overcome theshame of whatever it is, cause
that's what's keeping you heldhostage.
Speaker 4 (32:03):
Yeah, yeah, Amen.
And we'll have all thoseresources in the show notes.
So take a look, check it out.
And, yeah, support and connectwith Josh and maybe, maybe,
forward forward along.
You know some of thoseresources to you.
Know a man or woman in yourlife that might be blessed by
that?
So beautiful, really awesome,Josh, great to have you in the
(32:24):
Foxhole, brother.
This was awesome and justreally celebrate the work that
God has done and is continuingto do in your life.
And we are on the sidelinescheering you on, brother, and
wish you continued success, andwhen I say success, I mean just
deeper and deeper intimacy withGod and uh and those around you,
and uh, and also, uh, also inthis world, earthly, earthly
(32:47):
success as well, that, that, uh,you would, you would flourish
and thrive in, uh, in the verythings, the ministry that God
has called you to, and uh.
So, yeah, Uh, thank you,brother.
Speaker 1 (32:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (32:58):
We'll continue.
We'll be continuing to pray foryou.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
Amen and ditto.
Josh, I hope someone has toldyou and if they haven't, I'm
happy to do it because, as Sargewill tell you, I'm in charge of
the obvious, but your messageis so wildly important, like,
first of all, thank you you,thank God for you, thank you you
, thank God for you, and thefact that you've heard the call,
(33:22):
answered the call and arepushing it out.
Look, there's nothing moreimportant in the world today,
and I believe this podcastepisode has a chance to achieve
our goal of reaching one manwith a very important message.
We hope people will connectwith you however they want to In
the list of ways that'spossible.
(33:42):
If God is in the middle of that, there will be a connection.
So we wish you all the best andI echo what Sarge said about
you and for you.
Speaker 5 (33:52):
Well, thank you guys.
It was a pleasure to be heretoday.
Speaker 4 (33:56):
Thanks so much.
Speaker 3 (34:00):
God bless you, brother.
I am grateful for Josh and hisobedience to God and the calling
on his life.
You know, what really stuck outto me today was when Josh said
desperation creates submission.
Man, this has been so evidentin my life and God has shown his
face to me in the midst ofthose times of full submission,
(34:28):
when I bring nothing to thetable except for all of my
brokenness a filthy rag before aholy God.
Lord, please help me, help mybrothers.
You know every bad habit andaddiction begins with a choice.
Go, grab a field guide tofreedom and let that be the
first choice of many on yourroad to freedom.
(34:49):
Lord, please continue to usethis podcast to impact the lives
of all who listen.
I ask that you would bring hopeand healing to each and every
one of them.
Meet them right where they areand reveal yourself to them like
only you can do.
In Jesus' name, amen.
Speaker 2 (35:07):
If you enjoyed today's episode, please share it
and invite others to theFoxhole.
You can find us wherever youdownload your favorite podcast.
Be sure to subscribe so youknow when new episodes drop, and
please rate us and commentthere too, as it'll help us get
found by others who couldbenefit.
Find, follow and like us onyour go-to social media networks
by searching Foxhole Symphonyor visit foxholesymphonycom to
(35:28):
make it super easy to find us.
Drop us a line with feedback,questions, topic requests.
Who knows, maybe you'll be aguest on a future episode.
In the meantime, prepare tomove, embrace discomfort and
just be you.
Welcome to Foxhole Symphony, a podcast about the
transformational value of men inauthentic community.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
In our foxhole.
Men are equipped to buildrelationships that foster
belonging, accountability andgrowth.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
Stop believing the lie that you can thrive in
isolation and instead join us onthe journey from broken to
whole.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
Hello everyone, nate, call me the Maestro, and we are
back in the foxhole where weactively pursue belonging,
accountability and growththrough authentic relationships.
No masks, no agendas, just iron, sharpening iron.
Steve and Mark are in thefoxhole and they have a special
guest with them today.
We're about to get a peekbehind this man's curtain and
(00:49):
something tells me it's going tobe a familiar territory to many
of us.
Let's open our hearts and ourminds and our favorite notes app
, because here we go.
Speaker 4 (01:00):
Hey, welcome back to Foxhole Symphony Podcast.
I'm Sarge here with my goodfriend and dear brother, mark.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
Hey, how are you brother?
Good man, good morning, whichprobably isn't the right thing
to say, because it could beevening when you're listening,
right?
Speaker 4 (01:14):
It could be, but listen, I don't know about you.
In my world, the birds aresinging, they are happy and
hungry, and the sun is shining,and it's not a steam room.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
Hey, I'm really happy about that.
Yeah, I know that not steamroom thing was like 61 this
morning here in Jersey.
Speaker 4 (01:32):
Woo, unbelievable.
That's chilly.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
What a good day we have coming up for everybody.
You want to introduce our guest.
Speaker 4 (01:42):
Absolutely so.
We've got a guest in thefoxhole this morning, excited
about this.
His name is Josh Drago and Josh, you know, has had a call on
his life, and his life's taken,taking some turns and he's doing
some things to not only seekthe Lord more deeply, but that
he might use his story to impactthe hearts and lives of men.
(02:03):
So that's what we're going tounpack this morning, excited
about that.
And so, josh, welcome to theFoxhole.
Thank you, gents, it's a superpleasure to be here, Glad to
have you and, yeah, we wouldlove to jump right in and just
introduce our listeners to Joshand just to learn a little bit
(02:24):
more about you, your story, talkto us a little bit about your
faith journey and then we cankind of get into what the Lord
has brought you to more recently.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
And the book the Field Guide to Freedom.
Can't wait.
Speaker 5 (02:38):
Yeah, yeah.
So for me.
I grew up in a conservativeChristian home, like millions of
other men around the country.
My parents are still married tothis day and, by all accounts,
I had good parents.
I've got many memoriesthroughout my childhood of my
dad teaching me how to ride dirtbikes and four wheelers, and I
was in the marching band.
(02:58):
My parents were always at myevents and they were always
there.
What did you play?
Speaker 1 (03:04):
What's that?
What instrument did you play?
What's that?
Speaker 5 (03:06):
What instrument did you play?
Oh, trumpet, okay, yep.
And so then graduated highschool, went into the Marines,
spent four years in there andgot out of the Marines, got
married, moved from New Englanddown to South Carolina.
My wife and I have always goneto church Anytime the church was
open.
You know that, that story.
(03:27):
We were there.
So we got plugged in with thechurch here locally in South
Carolina and then, around 2015,we started fostering.
And it was that season of mylife when we were foster parents
, when life got harder than Iever could have imagined, when
my life imploded all around me.
The reason it imploded allaround me was because I never
(03:48):
addressed the earlier stuff inlife, because I had good parents
, I grew up in a two-parent home, I didn't have any obvious
trauma, and so I didn't addressthe lacking in my life me
pursuing validation, the lackingin my life, the me pursuing
(04:08):
validation, even going back tohigh school.
Now, looking back, you know Iplayed the trumpet, but I was
the best trumpet player in theband because I wanted that
validation of hey, look at me,look how good I am.
When I joined the military, Ididn't join nothing against the
Army or the Navy, but I joinedthe Marines because that is the
hardest branch and I wanted thatpride of look at me, look at
how much of a man I am.
And all of that came back to asa kid.
(04:30):
I was never told that I amenough.
I was never told that, nomatter what I do or what I don't
do, I am loved.
And so I brought that with mesubconsciously, I didn't know I
did, but I brought that with me.
Then, when life got super hard,I was still searching for that
answer of am I enough, am Iloved?
(04:52):
I searched for it in militaryservice.
I had searched for it in careeraccolades.
I had searched for it in women.
Wouldn't you know it?
Women provided that answer morethan anything else.
And uh and so, along the way, Ibecame a member of the world's
most non-exclusive club thatnobody wants to be a part of.
(05:12):
Men who fall to sexual sin.
Uh and so, uh, through theprocess of fostering, um, I had
become addicted to porn.
Um, I could not stop myself,and when it got to a certain
point, I was looking at pornquite often.
The digital women wereproviding that need.
(05:32):
As good as it was.
How much more so would thephysical women provide for that
physical need, or not even aphysical need, but the emotional
need.
And that bridge to cross is notvery long at all to go from
digital women to real life women.
And so I had multiple affairs onmy wife.
The whole thing came crashingdown in early 2021 when I got
(05:55):
found out, and I got found outto such a degree that I couldn't
deny it.
I could try and spin it, butinstinctively I knew that I
couldn't.
And so in my worst moment, Ihad called my wife and I said
honey, there's a lot of thingsthat we need to talk about, but
(06:16):
if you'll have me, I'll dowhatever it takes.
And it was that moment when shesaid the five words that will
forever change my life.
She said I will always have youand you want to.
You want to see a man ugly cry.
You see him in his worst momentand his wife say I will always
have you.
And so I didn't recognize it atthe time, but as as my wife and
(06:37):
I began to heal because thatwas the catalyst for us to
finally heal from all of ourthings that we had ignored for
so long Um, and and I can sharea little bit of kind of what
I've learned about the healingprocess how to do that Um, but
that phrase, I will always haveyou.
It was like my soul was asponge and I had waited my
entire life to hear those exactwords.
(06:58):
I firmly believe that God usedmy wife in that moment to say
those words at that exact, righttiming because it wasn't her
that was saying that, it was.
It was God himself that wassaying to me God, I will always
have you.
Like you, you are finallyexperiencing now the
unconditional love that I'vealways wanted to give you,
(07:18):
because you recognize that youhaven't earned it.
You could never.
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (07:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (07:24):
Yeah, I was.
Speaker 4 (07:24):
I'm so glad.
I'm so glad you said that,because it's exactly what I was
thinking when you said thosewords.
You know what?
What an incredible.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
And we've heard you know, mark, and I've heard
stories like that before youknow, with no-transcript that
(08:27):
several guests who have, be itporn or or other addictions you
know could could be alcohol,could be drugs, could be any
number of things could be workRight and splits the family.
Speaker 4 (08:39):
so yeah, god bless you, josh.
That, yeah, exactly, I mean itis a miracle.
It is a miracle.
It's a miracle to have thatloving grace, um, you know, in
in the midst of the consequencesof that sin albeit, you know,
perhaps divorce or what have youright falling apart but still
have the love and and grace andhave some semblance of a
(09:01):
relationship salvage.
But it sounds like, josh, youand your wife are still together
.
Speaker 5 (09:05):
Yeah, so it took us.
Statistically, on average, ittakes about two and a half years
for a marriage to recover frominfidelity.
But that assumes during thattwo and a half year period that
you're hard at work, you'rebeing diligent in the steps you
need to take.
So if you have that moment ofcoming clean but then you don't
start those steps, the recoveryprocess is exponentially longer.
(09:32):
So for us, yeah, it took abouttwo, two and a half years for us
to get back to kind of normalcyand of course we had glimpses
of normalcy and intimacy andbonding together fun moments
throughout.
But really to get back to adeep level of intimacy where we
are beginning, she's beginningto trust me and I am beginning
to be permanently okay with thelevel of submission that I need
(09:53):
to have in my life.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
So you got found out in 21, two to three years.
Right, You're here, it's 2024.
And there's a journey connecteddots from that, this moment and
when God put the field guide tofreedom on your heart, and
where that's going and turns, asI'm sure you can imagine.
Speaker 5 (10:18):
So initially, when everything happened for us and I
said to my wife, joy, I will dowhatever it takes, and I was
committed to that.
And so I joined a 12-stepprogram that was more geared for
chemical addictions, which isnot always as helpful for
process or behavioral addictions.
So over the course of a fewmonths I realized that that
(10:41):
wasn't right for me.
So I switched to anotherrecovery group that my church
hosted at the time that wasspecific for sexual addictions
and the term unwanted sexualbehavior.
So not just addictions, but, uh, many who have had affairs or
they've gone to um the massageparlors, you know things like
that.
We've heard it all.
And so I went through thatcurriculum and it was in that
(11:06):
curriculum where I learned a lotabout the brain science, of why
do we do what we do.
Why is it so hard for men tobreak free from this?
And not just men, but 40% ofAmerican women also qualify as
being addicted to unwantedsexual behavior.
We think it's a male problem,but it's very quickly becoming
universal.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
Yeah, dopamine is a ubiquitous drug, right.
Speaker 5 (11:28):
Exactly, and it's self-produced in the brain, so
you don't need a dealer, you arethe dealer, which makes it so
hard to beat it.
And so it was in thatcurriculum, where it curriculum
where, uh, it's called theconquer series.
Um, I really started to uncoverthe why behind my behavior.
But if I, if I didn't implementthe accountability that I
(11:49):
needed to keep it at bay, itwould be kind of like, if you've
been diagnosed with cancer butyou keep eating and doing all
the things that have caused thecancer in the first place, you
can't expect your body torectify itself.
Um, if you continue to put thetoxins in.
And so you need theaccountability you need to keep
all the things away.
Um, and so I started doing that.
(12:11):
I I love the movie Braveheart,one of my favorites of all time,
but it's got a nude scene in it, so I had to throw it away.
Band of Brothers I love it.
It's got a nude scene in it.
I can't watch it.
Speaker 3 (12:26):
I had to get rid of everything.
Speaker 5 (12:27):
I had a clean house.
I had to have a clean slate.
I had to have theaccountability on every device
that I have access to to makesure that there's visibility.
That way it forces the awkwardconversations.
If I were to have a relapse andthere's been some awkward
conversations if I were to havea relapse and there's been some
awkward conversations, notalways because of a relapse, but
(12:47):
you know, maybe something cameup on my YouTube feed and I
lingered on it a little bit toolong and it's not quite a red
flag, but it's a yellow flag andso having those awkward
conversations, you know.
And so I did that, and then Istarted leading a recovery group
and it was in that leading ofthe recovery group where I
really started to see a patternas my focus shifted from me to
(13:10):
others, and that is a naturalprogression of the healing
process.
It needs to go to that Throughand through.
There's been study after studythat has shown, of the 12 steps
in every recovery program, theone that has shown of the 12
steps in every recovery program,the one that has the biggest
impact on long-term sobriety, isthe 12th step helping others.
And so helping others has to bea part of our healing process.
And so once I stepped into that, I discovered the unfortunate
(13:36):
reality that most men, whenpresented with reality, that
most men when presented with, uh, I guess, the hard truth that
they need to get rid of this intheir life.
And it doesn't have to besexual sin, it could be anything
right.
But when you're, when you'represented with that hard truth
of getting rid of it, whateverit is, uh, we resist it, we
don't want to do what we have todo, or we don't know
(13:58):
practically how to do it, and sowe don't do it.
And so, over and over again,week after week, I heard men
come back and say you know what?
I relapsed again.
It was the box of old phonesthat I've got in the garage just
in case my phone dies.
I don't have accountabilitysoftware on that, and that's I
had a relapse.
So I'd say, okay, well, throwaway, throw away the phones.
(14:22):
You'd come back the next weekand say it was another phone.
I only threw away one of them.
There's seven more, and so thehardest deceitful, yeah.
And so that's why I wrote thefield guide to freedom.
It's it's uh, it kind of it's ashort read.
Um, it's intended to be a shortread.
It's intended to be a shortread.
It's also intended the designof it is.
(14:42):
It looks like a military fieldmanual, so it's totally
ambiguous.
You can read it on an airplaneand the person next to you will
not know whether or not you'restruggling with a sexual sin or
you're just trying to formhealthy habits habits, um, so
it's not like uh, you open thislike every man's battle, right?
(15:03):
You open that up and everybodyaround you knows you're trying
to find freedom from unwantedsexual behavior.
You read this book, nobodywould know, um.
So I designed it that way tokind of lift that veil of shame,
um, so that guys can read itand not feel that shame, um,
cause who, who doesn't want tohave good habits?
Right, um, right and uh.
But really the design of it isis it's laid out so that we kind
(15:25):
of we cover the brain scienceof it and how did we get here?
And then lays out why we needto change.
Because God, god's word, isclear.
If you read the book of booksof Joshua and judges, it lays
out basically Joshua's fight forfreedom into the promised land
and then how it all went wrongin the book of Judges, and
that's the story of all of us.
(15:46):
We have to fight for ourfreedom and we have to continue
the fight and it has to bethorough and it has to be
complete, wow.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
All right, I'm going to grab a couple of things.
I'm sorry to interrupt you, butyou just I can't help myself.
So in the middle of yourjourney, the brain this is, you
said.
This is where I got into thebrain science and the why, the
behavioral part.
And let's just together, forfun, dive into our brother
Paul's story in Romans 7.15,right, which I will paraphrase
(16:15):
for brevity, and say why am Idoing this Right?
That question we have all askedourselves.
So can you distill your messageto men in community about that?
Why do we find ourselves doingthings we know that we should
not be doing?
Speaker 5 (16:36):
Yeah, oh man, that is such a complex question, yeah.
Speaker 4 (16:41):
Oh man, that is such a complex question, I know.
Speaker 5 (16:49):
So we only got like 30 seconds.
Yeah, no, it's so good though,because Paul understood this.
We all have this conflictingnature within us.
We want to do what is right,but we can't do it.
We keep gravitating towardswhat is wrong, towards what is
unhealthy, and that's becausewhat is unhealthy is so
appealing, it's so pleasurable,it's so, it feels so good.
But the reality is that goodhabits never feel good in the
(17:12):
moment, but they feel good inthe long term.
Bad habits always, always, feelgood in the near term, but they
have deadly consequences in thelong term.
Amen, and so we don't have along-term view when it comes to
bad habits.
So that's number one.
We need to think long term, weneed to think eternally.
Where will this habit lead me?
But within the brain itself.
(17:34):
It's so fascinating We've beenable to actually map the brain
synaptic pathways.
Fascinating We've we've beenable to actually map the brain
synaptic pathways and, uh, youcan trace a thought and a
feeling as it, as it travelsthroughout the brain, going
across synaptic pathways and allthe different neurotransmitters
that are produced within thebrain and reuptake inhibitors,
and you know all these differentthings.
Um, but essentially, if it'skind of like, uh, uh, an old
(17:57):
farm road.
The more we do, the more weperform a habit, the more that
old farm road gets entrenched,until a certain point when, if
you've ever driven on it on anold farm road, you don't even
have to steer anymore.
All you have to do is tap thegas and the tractor will go
exactly where you need it to go,because that is so ingrained in
(18:18):
the dirt.
And that's the way our brainworks too.
That's we.
We call it muscle memory.
You know Tiger Woods?
He's.
He's out there hitting the clubthousand times a day.
Tom Brady, whoever your athleteof choice is, they practice as
many times as they do.
Uh the, the 10,000 hour rule.
Uh the, uh K?
Uh.
Kevin Anders I think his namewas who came up with the 10,000
(18:39):
hour rule.
That's the premise of the10,000 hour rule that the more
we do something, the better weget at it.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
And master it, yep.
Speaker 5 (18:45):
And that's what Paul is talking about.
I believe that he has donesomething so many times that now
he's doing it automatically.
Speaker 3 (18:53):
Why do I do this?
Speaker 5 (18:55):
It's because you can't stop it.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
Your brain is wired to do this Right.
Well, I I I think Paul hintedat this and I've heard you say
this before, and where I go withwith Paul's message and yours,
both in the book and justlistening to you and other
podcasts is part of the reasonsI do this over and over is
because I don't have a communityaround me, I don't have an
accountability partner, I don'thave other men there with me so
(19:25):
that I can turn to them.
I see, often enough I do itbecause, oh, no one's watching,
no one will know, right, but ifyou commit what one part of
authentic community that Sargeand I have recognized and hope
flourishes is look, sometimesyou just have, you desperately
(19:45):
need someone next to you, right,To just look.
It could be a hug, it could bea pat on the head, it could be
an attaboy, it as well could bea kick in the ass.
You know that's like whoa, stopright there.
You called it yellow flag, redflag, what having those guys
around us, what Sarge and I dofor each other in our lives?
Whether there's 1500 milesbetween us or a cup of coffee
(20:08):
over a table, the distancedoesn't matter.
What matters is our hearts areconnected and God's in the
middle of it.
Can you speak to that a littlebit?
Speaker 4 (20:18):
Let me jump onto that real quick, because I think you
know you said a word that is sokey to this, and it's
desperation.
Right, and Josh said earlierlike he was brought to his knees
when he was found out and hewas 100% committed to do
whatever it is he needed to do.
(20:38):
It was out of sheer desperation.
Right, I will do whatever ittakes, because what's at risk?
My marriage, my family right,Like this is it?
I'm found out that desperationis a beautiful catalyst to
commitment, right?
Because, short of that, I mean,just like the phones.
(21:00):
Just like the phones, right?
Like, oh yeah, I got rid of allthe phones except this one.
It's the same thing withaccountability.
Oh, yeah, I want accountability.
Do you really wantaccountability?
Do you really want connection?
Do you really want authenticityand transparency?
Are you truly ready to bringdown the veil and be completely
(21:20):
seen?
Well, if you're not in a placeof sheer desperation, the truth
is you're probably not.
You're probably going to holdback just enough to go back to
the vomit, like a dog does, Ifyou really want to, if you
really need to, just to reserveor conserve.
(21:42):
So, Josh, go ahead.
I'm sorry to cut you off, butit's just that I wanted to jump
on that word desperation.
Speaker 5 (21:48):
No, that's so good man.
Yeah, Desperation createssubmission, that's the only way
that I can put it.
And to your point, Mark, aboutthe accountability and community
yeah, I mean, look at the storyof Nehemiah the city had been
ransacked.
Speaker 1 (22:03):
I love it.
Speaker 5 (22:03):
The walls were destroyed and Nehemiah did not
rebuild the city by himself.
No, if you read I think it'schapter three in Nehemiah he
details this family protectedthis section of the wall.
This family rebuilt thissection of the wall.
Speaker 1 (22:21):
That's all that chapter is is hey this is the
community of people that rebuiltthe city.
I'm sorry, I just love thatstory so much because Nehemiah
had a vision right and it wasmainly to rebuild the city, but
he knew that if there were fourmen in the family, two had to
build and two had to have swordsand protect the two builders.
I just think it's such a greatlike common sense story about
(22:43):
real life.
Thank you for bringing that up.
I love that.
Speaker 5 (22:46):
Yeah, absolutely.
And even like Jesus, when hesent the disciples out, he
didn't send them out one by one,he sent them out two by two.
All throughout scripture we seeauthentic community, brother
watching brother, and the reasonthat I got into the mess that I
was in is because of a lack ofcommunity, a lack of
authenticity.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
Yeah, well, how important is that in your life
now?
Why don't we just jump there,tell us about what your life is
like now?
And do you have accountabilityin your life beside your wife?
Speaker 5 (23:18):
I do, yeah.
So, um, in in the calling thatGod has placed on my life.
So, uh, just for brevity sakeand there's a whole story behind
how God has spoken this into me, and and why not but, um, uh,
god has called me to speak lifeinto the hearts of men and to
use my story to help them changecourse.
And so, in that calling um, Idon't do that on my own, I
(23:38):
submit that to other wise, holymen in my life, and so
everything I do podcastinterviews, speaking engagements
, things like that, books that Ihave planned is submitted to
men around me, to my wife and toGod.
We have to have submission toall three of those, and if
you're not married, that's fine,but you still need to be
(23:59):
submitted to other three ofthose.
And if you're not married,that's fine, but you still need
to be submitted to other men andto God.
For me, what that looks like is,at least once a week I have an
accountability conversation withmy accountability partner, and
we're not just accountabilitypartners.
He just came over last night tomy house and he's writing his
own book, so we kind of workedthrough the structure of it and
I'm helping him to write thatbook.
So it's not just accountability.
(24:20):
We're brothers, we're friends,but once a week we do have a
devoted conversation to say hey,how are you doing with the
temptation?
How are you doing with theyellow flags, are you?
Do you feel yourself gettingdistracted, reverting back to
old habits?
Is there anything that you'vehidden from your wife this week?
Let's make sure we rectify that.
We do have those devotedconversations and we need to.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
That's hardcore.
Speaker 5 (24:46):
But it needs to be hardcore.
When I told my wife whatever ittakes, I meant whatever it
takes.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
I love that, love that Interesting you mentioned
in passing early on out of highschool into the Marines, in
passing early on out of highschool into the Marines.
And I have family and my son'sbest friend is in the Marines,
now nephew in the Navy, so onand so forth.
So a little experience andwe've had guests that have been
in the military.
So you're in the Marines wherethey teach you a whole lot about
(25:13):
self-control and discipline,and you come out and it's just
like right, and I'm I'm notpointing out your flaws.
What I'm saying is that evensomeone who traveled the path
that you were on, wherediscipline and self-control are
literally drilled into you, youcan still wander out.
(25:36):
You know it happens toeverybody.
It doesn't matter who you areor what your profession is or if
you know we.
We hear about people falling allthe time in the news.
Even though I don't listen tothe news, you can't miss it,
right?
Whether it's a sports star oran actor or somebody, or in
politics and in crashing andburning.
Crashing and burning I thinkyou use the words dumpster fire
(25:58):
in another podcast I heard youtalking about which is a good.
That's a good visual.
I get that one, but I guess I'mthis is more commentary that
I'm here to say it doesn'tmatter, the enemy will take a
shot at you, no matter where youare or what you're doing, and
you need to be prepared.
Wouldn't it be great, josh, ifsomebody listening to this
(26:20):
podcast actually said you know,before I have my dumpster fire,
I'm going to take action, I'mgoing to go to my wife and tell
her how important this is to me,that I am faithful to you, et
cetera, et cetera.
Speaker 5 (26:32):
Yeah.
So I was just having aconversation recently with a man
who that's where he's at hedoesn't want to put in the risky
effort, and it is risky,especially if your wife, like me
.
I had told my wife for years,oh no, this isn't something I
struggle with, and it was, offand on something that I
struggled with.
And so how could I thenbacktrack and say you know what?
(26:53):
No, this is something that Istruggle with, and so I think we
need to just accept that thisis something every man struggles
with, and so I think we need tojust accept that this is
something every man struggleswith, specifically sexual
addiction.
But we've all got something,even if it's not unwanted sexual
behavior Right.
But the way I described it tothis man is I live right near a
forest and the forest managementservice for that particular
(27:15):
forest, every few years they doa controlled burn to get rid of
the underbrush and make surethat the forest is healthy.
If they don't do that, theyrisk wildfires.
And that's exactly what gettinghealthy in this area of our
life preemptively, proactively,looks like.
It's a controlled burn.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
That's a good analogy .
Speaker 5 (27:34):
Yeah, you need to get rid of this stuff in your life.
If you don't, you're risking awildfire.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
I like that.
Speaker 4 (27:39):
Yeah, and I and I would just uh, maybe, as a
little bit of an exclamationpoint, um, you know, I think
there's, there's this trap rightOf, uh, maybe, what success
looks like, Right, and if and ifsuccess looks like the absence
of a certain behavior, right,we're, we're, we're probably at
(28:02):
risk of continuing to fail, andand so, you know, um, you know,
and, and you know, michael,right, uh, mark, you know,
michael, michael talks aboutthis, right, uh, michael Cusick,
and um, you know, uh, it's,it's, it's more about seeking
(28:23):
God's face above everything andeveryone else.
Right, it is success.
Success is measured by personalintimacy with God, not
production.
It can't be production, justlike in our work lives, right,
just like in every area of ourlife.
It's no different.
It's no different, it's whatChris Bruno says presence over
production.
Right, just like in every areaof our life.
It's no different, it's, it'sno different, it's what Chris
(28:43):
Bruno says presence overproduction.
Right, success should bemeasured by intimacy with God
and it should be the only goalof our lives.
And so, surrendering, you know,we, we talked, you talked about
surrender and the requirementfor surrender.
You know, it reminded me thatsurrender is to the
accomplishment of God's purposes.
Right, it's to theaccomplishment of God's purposes
.
Right, it's to theaccomplishment of God's purposes
in our lives and that comesthrough intimacy with Him.
(29:06):
And there's a cost.
There's a cost, but we live for.
You know the returns beyondwhat we can see, and you know as
devoted followers of Jesus, andso, yeah, I don't know, just
some thoughts from my end around.
You know surrender and success,right.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
I love it.
Josh, tell us a little bitabout I'm thinking about the
catalysts in your life.
You've been very kind andhonest and thank you for your
vulnerability and candor aboutyour life and the journey.
So now, now you feel that ourFather, our Lord and Savior, our
(29:46):
God, has called you to speakinto men's lives.
Right, I think those are thewords you use.
What does that look like?
Just tell us your vision forthe future and help us
understand how men can engagewith you.
I mean, obviously, buying thebook would be a good idea it
sounds like but just help us seeyour trajectory now.
Speaker 5 (30:07):
Yeah, uh, so I have my own plans.
whether or not they are God'splans are yet to be seen, but uh
, nice of you to admit that butmy plans, uh, you know what I,
how I see God using my story sofar in whatever gifting I may or
may not have is.
You know I've spoken at mychurch a number of times within
(30:29):
the ministry and I go to areally large church here in
South Carolina.
So I've spoken to, you know,two to three hundred guys on
topics from shame, how we allwear a mask.
What do you do with what Godsays to you?
That kind of those kinds oftopics.
I've spoken at a couple of men'sconferences, written this book.
(30:49):
You can engage with me onsocial media, so Instagram and
Facebook.
And, by the way, if you're inthe realm of unwanted sexual
behavior, there is a way for youto have social media in a safe
way.
So I have discovered that Ihave kind of restored that in my
life.
So you can engage with me onInstagram and Facebook and then
(31:11):
at the my website, the fieldguide to freedomcom, just kind
of keep up with everything thatI've got going on.
I will have, I think by thetime this episode comes out,
I'll have the small group studyguide that is coming out to uh,
to go with the book.
Uh, because really to to yourpoint, mark uh, freedom does not
exist.
It will never exist in a silo.
(31:31):
You know, you, to use your youranalogy of the foxhole.
I was in the Marines for fouryears.
I never was in a foxhole bymyself.
You always have a brotherbeside you.
Speaker 1 (31:41):
Right.
Speaker 5 (31:42):
And so if you, if you want freedom from whatever
behavior, habit, addiction,whatever you want to label it,
if you want freedom from that,you've got to do that in
community, and so I've got thesmall group study guide coming
out That'll walk you through thefield, guide to freedom and
really help you overcome theshame of whatever it is, cause
that's what's keeping you heldhostage.
Speaker 4 (32:03):
Yeah, yeah, Amen.
And we'll have all thoseresources in the show notes.
So take a look, check it out.
And, yeah, support and connectwith Josh and maybe, maybe,
forward forward along.
You know some of thoseresources to you.
Know a man or woman in yourlife that might be blessed by
that?
So beautiful, really awesome,Josh, great to have you in the
(32:24):
Foxhole, brother.
This was awesome and justreally celebrate the work that
God has done and is continuingto do in your life.
And we are on the sidelinescheering you on, brother, and
wish you continued success, andwhen I say success, I mean just
deeper and deeper intimacy withGod and uh and those around you,
and uh, and also, uh, also inthis world, earthly, earthly
(32:47):
success as well, that, that, uh,you would, you would flourish
and thrive in, uh, in the verythings, the ministry that God
has called you to, and uh.
So, yeah, Uh, thank you,brother.
Speaker 1 (32:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (32:58):
We'll continue.
We'll be continuing to pray foryou.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
Amen and ditto.
Josh, I hope someone has toldyou and if they haven't, I'm
happy to do it because, as Sargewill tell you, I'm in charge of
the obvious, but your messageis so wildly important, like,
first of all, thank you you,thank God for you, thank you you
, thank God for you, and thefact that you've heard the call,
(33:22):
answered the call and arepushing it out.
Look, there's nothing moreimportant in the world today,
and I believe this podcastepisode has a chance to achieve
our goal of reaching one manwith a very important message.
We hope people will connectwith you however they want to In
the list of ways that'spossible.
(33:42):
If God is in the middle of that, there will be a connection.
So we wish you all the best andI echo what Sarge said about
you and for you.
Speaker 5 (33:52):
Well, thank you guys.
It was a pleasure to be heretoday.
Speaker 4 (33:56):
Thanks so much.
Speaker 3 (34:00):
God bless you, brother.
I am grateful for Josh and hisobedience to God and the calling
on his life.
You know, what really stuck outto me today was when Josh said
desperation creates submission.
Man, this has been so evidentin my life and God has shown his
face to me in the midst ofthose times of full submission,
(34:28):
when I bring nothing to thetable except for all of my
brokenness a filthy rag before aholy God.
Lord, please help me, help mybrothers.
You know every bad habit andaddiction begins with a choice.
Go, grab a field guide tofreedom and let that be the
first choice of many on yourroad to freedom.
(34:49):
Lord, please continue to usethis podcast to impact the lives
of all who listen.
I ask that you would bring hopeand healing to each and every
one of them.
Meet them right where they areand reveal yourself to them like
only you can do.
In Jesus' name, amen.
Speaker 2 (35:07):
If you enjoyed today's episode, please share it
and invite others to theFoxhole.
You can find us wherever youdownload your favorite podcast.
Be sure to subscribe so youknow when new episodes drop, and
please rate us and commentthere too, as it'll help us get
found by others who couldbenefit.
Find, follow and like us onyour go-to social media networks
by searching Foxhole Symphonyor visit foxholesymphonycom to
(35:28):
make it super easy to find us.
Drop us a line with feedback,questions, topic requests.
Who knows, maybe you'll be aguest on a future episode.
In the meantime, prepare tomove, embrace discomfort and
just be you.
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