October 4, 2024 • 55 mins
What if the key to true growth lies in disintegration first? This week, we are excited to welcome Mark Jordan, the visionary mind behind Unravel Groups, as he unpacks the profound journey of 'unraveling' inspired by Isaiah 6. Mark discusses the mission of his organization to help men achieve excellence across spiritual, relational, and vocational dimensions. Together, we explore the challenge of Christian men being perceived as mediocre in the marketplace and underscore the importance of commitment in the pursuit of excellence.
Mark takes us on a deep dive into the intentionality and preparation required for personal growth, drawing parallels with historical figures who were meticulously prepared for their roles. Discover how Unravel Groups empowers men to overcome obstacles in faith, family, friends, fitness, and finances, creating a holistic environment that transcends traditional church groups. Mark shares his insights on how redefining men's groups can lead to genuine, supportive communities, emphasizing the importance of wellness and authentic connections.
The conversation doesn't stop there. We delve into the power of small, intimate accountability groups and the transformational leadership that arises from such tight-knit connections. Mark outlines the various paths offered by Unravel Groups, from self-paced programs to long-term commitments, with the audacious goal of reaching a million men in ten years. Through Mark's personal journey of faith and professional life, we reflect on the transformative power of serving others and integrating faith into everyday endeavors. Join us for an episode filled with inspiration, actionable insights, and the promise of meaningful change.
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Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome to Foxhole Symphony, a podcast about the
transformational value of men inauthentic community.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
In our foxhole.
Men are equipped to buildrelationships that foster
belonging, accountability andgrowth.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
Stop believing the lie that you can thrive in
isolation and instead join us onthe journey from broken to
whole.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
Hello everyone.
They call me the Maestro and weare back in the foxhole where
we actively pursue belonging,accountability and growth
through authentic relationships.
No masks, no agendas, just ironsharpening iron.
Steve and Mark are in thefoxhole today and they have a
guest with them.
Let me ask you something Areyou ready to get unraveled?
Let's open our hearts, ourminds and our favorite notes app
(00:51):
, because here we go.
Speaker 4 (00:53):
Hey, welcome back to Foxhole Symphony Podcast.
I'm Sarge here with my goodfriend Mark.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
Hey brother.
Speaker 4 (01:00):
How are you?
Speaker 1 (01:01):
Oh, I'm not melting in Florida, you're not, no it
was.
Speaker 4 (01:03):
I'm not melting in Florida, you're not.
No, it was, I'm melting alittle bit.
I'm melting a little bit.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
Bro, we're having these 40s at night here in
Jersey.
I heard, I heard I'm notrubbing it in I heard about it?
Speaker 4 (01:15):
Yes, you are.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
A little.
I'm sorry you are, I'm rubbingit in a little, but Listen take
all the shots you want.
Speaker 4 (01:22):
My time's coming, baby.
My time is coming About threemonths.
I'm going to take my shots, butit's good to see your face and
hear your voice, of course, andI'm excited to have a guest with
us in the foxhole, and so whydon't you get us started and
intro our guest?
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Sure, absolutely.
Ladies and gentlemen, this isMark Jordan, the founder of
Unravel Groups.
Let me tell you a little bitabout Mark before we start
talking with him.
Mark is the founder of UnravelGroups, an accomplished
entrepreneur with a richbackground in investment,
banking, real estate andfinancial services.
Mark has authored several booksand initiated numerous
impactful projects.
(02:01):
He passionately mentors mendriving transformational growth
across spiritual, relational andvocational realms.
A true advocate for integrity,leadership and service, mark's
insights are fueled by hisdiverse experiences and deep
commitment to helping othersexcel.
Join us as we explore hisjourney and wisdom.
Mark Jordan, welcome in thefoxhole.
Speaker 5 (02:23):
Thank you guys.
Thanks for having me.
Man, that sounds good readingthat Mark.
Wow, that sounds pretty good.
I need to compliment the teammember who wrote that man.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
So, Mark, you know what.
It's going to be appropriatefor us to start simply by
Unravel Group.
Sarge and I were having alittle fun with that before
You've heard all the puns, I'msure.
But tell us about the journeyof Unravel Groups and what that
really means.
Is that a ministry?
Is that a business?
Is it both?
Tell us more about it, please.
Speaker 5 (02:56):
Yeah, and I'm welcome All the puns you got, man.
So yeah, injecting some humorinto it is great.
So life is hard and seriousenough, that's for sure.
Amen.
The name Unravel, first, thegenesis for it is this idea from
Isaiah 6, the first eight or soverses of Isaiah, that part of
(03:17):
it is this encounter that Isaiahhas and he has this realization
that the gap between him andGod is so big.
And he has this realizationthat the gap between him and God
is so big.
And then, before he can reallyexperience growth, there's this
unraveling or disintegrationthat needs to occur first, then
creating space for integrationto occur, or the maturation
(03:40):
process, development becomingmore Christ-like over time, and
so that unravel is really.
That's really what's behind itis.
We've created this small groupenvironment and other adjacent
content, if you will.
That's all about helping menlearn to become better leaders,
(04:00):
but also to learn to pursueexcellence in a more meaningful
way, because we really feel likethat.
On the whole, this is ageneralization.
There's exceptions, of course,but men in general, christian
men in general, don't have areputation in the marketplace
for excellence.
They just don't.
You know, it's not like they gooh wow, that guy's clearly a
(04:21):
Christian because look howexcellent he is in the workplace
, more times than not,oftentimes it's mediocre.
And so, while Enravel Grips isnot just for Christian men that
was really what spurred me onwas going wow, you know I met
regularly with some young guys,and one in particular, that
really we started talking.
We need to launch this for menat large, because there's so
(04:46):
many men that just don'tunderstand what it means to be
the best you can be in themarketplace and what that, how
that reflects not only God butalso just their own testimony in
the marketplace.
So that was the genesis behindit.
Came from that and reallywanting men to be better at that
.
Cool.
Speaker 4 (05:04):
Thank you.
So I got, I got to jump.
I got to jump on that Cause Iyou know it's, and I read a
little bit about that in in your, in your materials, and you
know if I'm honest which I amand I will be you know I read
the word excellence and I wentOoh, you know, like I come up in
some, some church environmentswhere you know actually it's a
(05:24):
dirty word, Right.
It put me on my heels a littlebit and I went.
Man, I can't wait to unpackthis and talk to Mark about what
he means by that, andespecially if you know you're
reaching out to men who you knowaren't mature in their faith.
So I don't want to lead theconversation too far, but I want
(05:46):
to hear from you Unpackexcellence for me and what we
mean by that.
Speaker 5 (05:50):
It's so interesting.
You said that because you'reright, it is a dirty word in the
sort of faith community atlarge, in many elements of the
faith community.
So, first, excellence means acouple of things.
First, it means a couple ofthings.
First, it means doing what yousay you're going to do.
When you say you're going to doit all the time, in every
(06:12):
environment that you show up in,we're not talking about
perfection.
We have a phrase that we use alot in Unravel, which is
progress, not perfection.
So are you on a journey to showup prepared in every environment
that you show up in?
So doing what you say when yousay?
Second is when you show up forsomething workplace, your
(06:32):
marriage or friendships,whatever are you prepared in a
way that separates you fromeveryone else?
And the fact is most peopledon't show up prepared.
So if you think about it inthose two ways, just those two
things, and we could of courseexpand in many other you know
descriptive phrases.
And then you think about thechurch world.
And you're right, it's like somany times in church world, if
(06:54):
you're available, you're hired.
That's it.
If you're available and you'rewilling, then you're hired
Instead of where are you gifted?
And then let's then teach youand then let's have a high
expectation that demandsexcellence in everything, across
all aspects of what you know,of what venue that you're
operating in.
So it's so interesting you saidthat it's something that really
(07:17):
drives me crazy was veryfortunate when we were in the
early formative years and ouryoung family, we were part of
starting a church in Atlanta.
That really showed me for thefirst time how you can have
excellence in the church.
You know the church world andit was so.
(07:37):
It just it really inspired meto not just have it in the
workplace but also in the churchworld as well.
Speaker 4 (07:46):
Well, I appreciate you unpacking that and you know,
and of course I you know, Ithought I might have been, you
know, teetering on the brink ofpotential insult.
And of course but no, but seeingthe word, I figured there was
more to unpack there, and so Iwanted to start there because
and I thought you did that sowell and it makes sense, and I
(08:08):
think there's a tendency perhapsto view excellence as one
extreme or the other, right,like it's either a dirty word
and it's evil, or it's fully onyour own strength, right and by
your own power and devoid of Godin you, right, and and by your
own power and devoid of, uh, ofof of God in you, right, and so
those are two extremes that youknow it doesn't have to mean
(08:32):
that Right and to your point.
As you were talking andexplaining that, one of the
words that came to mind wasintentionality.
You know intentionality, andand and I was thinking, wow,
that's.
You know, in some of thecircles that Mark and I, you
know, serve in, we hear, youknow words like intentionality
and intensity.
You know which are important.
You know they're important tohave.
(08:54):
You know, as we look to serveGod and serve others, and as you
were describing what you meanby excellence, those were some
of the words that came to mind.
Speaker 5 (09:02):
What you mean by excellence?
Those were some of the wordsthat came to mind.
Yeah, steve, you know you thinkabout the people that have come
before us historically,particularly biblically.
These were people that wereprepared, man, I mean, when they
showed up for their chosenfield or what they were chosen
for.
These were people that wereprepared and intentional.
They didn't just show up and go, oh, I don't know.
(09:23):
Let me just think off the topof my head and, you know, share
a thought with you they wereintensely prepared and
intentional.
So, yeah, intentionality is suchan important part and we want
it to be.
It's really not just about, ofcourse, as I said earlier,
christians.
This is for all men.
So I don't just think it's inthe Christian space, I just
think it's more disappointing tosee it in the church space.
(09:47):
If it's not in the church space, it's not as disappointing.
But men, I think inherently,steve, I think they know that
they can be more.
They know they can deliver more, they know they can show up
better prepared.
Oftentimes they just haven'thad people encourage them and
give them tools to do that with,and that's what we do at
Unravel.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
That's really interesting to me, Sarge.
I'm going to grab a couple ofthings.
First of all, I'm thinkingabout the message you're trying
to communicate in the churchworld is a message from the
heart.
You can speak your heartlanguage at church.
We're just more comfortabledoing it there.
In the secular world, we tendto talk from our heads.
Speaker 5 (10:27):
Yeah, in Unravel we try to sit above First.
We try to stay away from thetypical church language because
we believe that every good,truthful principle has come from
God anyway, right?
Whether it's a book written byan author know an author who
isn't faith-based, or whetherit's one from who is faith-based
(10:47):
, if it's a truthful principle,it all came from God anyway.
So we want to sit above thatand talk and really focus on
principle.
It's very principle-driven andwe try to think in terms of
faith, family, friends, fitness,finances, which is another way
of categorizing what you justsaid, mark.
So obviously, the faith pieceis not a piece of our life.
(11:09):
It's the wrapping, it's the DNAthat flows through everything.
The other things are parts ofour life and we've found that
every man is stuck in at leastone of those areas of his life,
regardless of age, regardless ofaccomplishments of those areas
of his life, regardless of age,regardless of accomplishments,
he's stuck in one area.
At least one area of that lifeor, said another way, has room
(11:30):
for lots of growth that he'svery aware of, right?
Sometimes it's more than that.
So in unravel groups there'llbe a collection of men who are
stuck in different areas, sowhen they come in.
We're focused on principles andevery month is a different,
attacks a different area oraddresses a different area, and
(11:51):
then provide skills in thoseareas that transcend that
particular slice.
So if you're stuck in yourfamily area, someone else is
stuck in their friends, or let'scall that interpersonal area
area, someone else is stuck intheir friends, or let's call
that interpersonal area.
The principles that they learntranscend the area so that they
can apply that and whereverthey're stuck in.
And then we want men to seethis, so men that are in it that
(12:15):
don't come from a faithbackground, maybe they're not
even curious about that.
We believe that this can eitherbe maybe a seed and maybe it's
going to get watered in adifferent venue after this,
maybe it's already been plantedand it's been watered and maybe
it will come to fruition inunravel.
But we want them if theyhaven't been exposed to that,
they're going to know.
It's clear through our contentthat this is a faith-based
(12:37):
environment and it's clear thatthey're going to be exposed to
the truth.
The men that do come arefaith-based environment, then
they obviously have that grid tolook through.
But those that don't are going.
Where did this come from?
Well, it came from truth, youknow, and we're able to share
that with them, and it's, it's.
We've seen the life change hasbeen so incredibly exciting and
(12:57):
encouraging and humbling.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
Wow, that must be a fantastic environment to be in.
Can we zero in on the friendsone for a moment?
Speaker 5 (13:08):
Yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
Can you give me a couple of the principles,
because I want to go there,because I want to talk to you
about, I think it's theredefining of men's groups, what
that looks like, the new era ofmen's wellness, right?
As part of Unravel I wasreading about.
Speaker 5 (13:25):
Yeah, yeah.
So a lot of this came from myexperience growing up.
Growing up, you know, as anadult, and I experienced sort of
two ends of the spectrum forgroups.
I experienced a traditionalcommunity group, you know from
your church, which was awesomeand there's a great place for it
, which typically was moresocially oriented no real
preparation, typically there'sexceptions.
(13:46):
Place for it, which typicallywas more socially oriented no
real preparation, typicallythere's exceptions, but it's
more show up, hang time, maybesome quote, accountability, and
so that's one piece.
The other end of the spectrum,let's say, was like a BSF I
don't know if you're familiarwith that which I loved and did
that.
It's wonderful, it's moreintellectual, it's a seven-year
program through the body andit's wonderful.
Out it's wonderful, it's moreintellectual, it's a seven-year
program through the body andit's wonderful and it's not for
(14:08):
everyone.
So I really felt like there wasthis place in the middle that I
just didn't see a lot out therefor where men I feel like men
really feel like they needthey've accomplished something
and they've moved the ball downthe field and whatever the
environment is.
So the social ones I don't feellike create that feeling most
of the time, where they reallyfeel like they've run this
marathon together with a man,but yet the BSF is a little too
(14:32):
intellectual for most men.
So this center part is where wewanted to land that sort of
marries, those two.
There's some hard work.
You feel like you're running amarathon, but you're also doing
it in community, because we allknow scalable, sustained growth
is best done in a community, asmall group, not individually.
The average person, I think,reads one and a half books a
(14:53):
year and even if they read thebest book in the year, the best
book they could possibly read,it's hard to scale that growth
when you're just by yourselfreading a book.
So within that context you takethe friend's piece.
So a man that's in a Ravelgroup is going to learn a
principle, let's say.
One principle is there's asimple one.
I didn't come up with this youreap what you sow, but it's
(15:15):
later and greater.
Most people think of you justreap what you sow and that's it.
They forget about the later andgreater part.
So if a person's stuck infriendships, they need to be
reminded that hey, if you're notexperiencing life-giving
interpersonal relationships,then maybe you need to look at
where you're investing, whatseeds you're sowing in that.
(15:38):
And if you're not doing that,how can you be reaping the
life-giving experience of anintimate relationship with other
men?
Another example would be crucialconversations.
You know, most people aren'tequipped to have crucial
conversations where they canreally sit down and go okay,
particularly in today's world.
Right, we disagree on somethingor I need to share with you,
(16:02):
mark, you know this.
I don't really feel like ourrelationship has really
progressed to the level that Iwould like for it to.
How do you feel about that?
Or just not having the tools tohave healthy, crucial
conversations?
That's another example.
But that's applicable not justinterpersonally with friends,
but with your family, right, youknow?
And when we say finances, we'rereferring to not just money,
but your vocation, yourworkplace.
(16:24):
It's applicable there.
So that's an example of how wetry to take these things and we
help men see they're applicablein all areas of their life.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
So there's overlap in the five F's.
Speaker 5 (16:35):
Absolutely yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
And interesting, because the Foxhole Symphony,
this quest for authenticcommunity Sarge and I talk about
every episode is born in thatcommunity.
You can find belonging,accountability and growth.
Those are the three principlesthat we use as constants.
There are many others, butthose are the constants that we
(16:59):
find and that growth I thinkyou're talking about that as
well growing in your friendship,relational abilities, your
vocation, growing in your familyconnection, et cetera, et
cetera 100 percent Progress, notperfection.
Speaker 5 (17:13):
It's interesting you mentioned accountability.
My personal experience has beenover the years that
accountability is somethingobviously very important and
when we need it the most we'regenerally the least likely to
ask for it, meaning that even ifwe're in a group and the group
is quote an accountability group, and if I'm struggling with
(17:34):
something, it's not likely in mybiggest struggling moment I'm
going to say to the group hey,I'm doing this thing over here,
I need someone to get it.
It doesn't usually work thatway.
That's been my experience, atleast in groups that I've been
in.
So we're trying to not onlycreate the space for that, but
(17:56):
to give men the tools so thatthey're more equipped not only
just in that space theaccountability space but all the
others as well to have betterconversations around it, so that
they are more willing you knowwhen the time comes.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
I understand that.
I'm sorry for dominating Mark,but it's a Mark thing, you
understand right, Listen.
Speaker 4 (18:19):
I knew that from the beginning.
That's why I got my words inright up front.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
I was like I got to get my.
I got to get my five minutes inhere.
Last 18 years there's been amen's group called Band of
Brothers Funny, it had a lot todo with Tom Hanks and that part,
but Band of Brothers has met inmy basement every other
Thursday for 18 years.
Speaker 3 (18:50):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
Right and Sarge and I also participate in a ministry
called Marked Men for Christ,and others for that matter.
But we've been leading in thatenvironment and now find
ourselves where those are biggroup environments.
You can have meetings with 20,30, 40 people and personally, as
(19:11):
I got older, the intimacyfactor became more and more and
more important for me and Ifound that I really wanted to
stop.
The larger group environment,Band of Brothers, was a come as
you are right.
We weren't taking attendance ordues.
Just bring a snack and bring it, and you can be secular, you
can be faith-based, you can comefrom whatever gutter that you
(19:34):
want to.
We had a lot of broken soulsthere, a lot of addiction,
things like that Folks lookingfor just a place that could be
safe.
But now Sarge and I participatein a group called Victorious
Together and it's five men, andthose five men are going deep,
are accountable, are sharpeningeach other, are learning and
(19:56):
sharing our deepest, deepestjoys.
Concerns challenges, fears,sinful nature, all the things
that God made in what I call ourbent.
Challenges, fears, sinfulnature, all the things that God
made in what I call our bent,not broken world, right.
So that's where our heads andhearts are now where the smaller
, more intimate group of menwilling to commit to meet two to
(20:16):
three times a month in personwhenever possible, or via
technology if we have to.
But I can tell you I don't knowhow big the unravel meetings
can be or how you propose thathappen For us today in Sarge.
You can jump in any time.
We have simply decided to havea very small, deep pool to play
(20:40):
in, to grow in our faith, to seewhat God's plan might be for
the best version of SteveSargent and Mark Vesper.
Speaker 5 (20:50):
Yeah, definitely for us.
You know, group sizes are, youknow, six to eight, you know,
with six being the ideal size,seven or eight is fine, but any
larger than that.
We've had them as big as nine,but it gets a bit challenging.
Those guys are committed.
We've had them as big as nine,but it gets a bit challenging.
Those guys are committed, youknow, when they it's not a kind.
(21:11):
And, by the way, one thing I dowant to say, because sometimes I
get so excited about unravelgroups I can sometimes
communicate that it's the onlyway to do a group.
I don't think that at all.
I think there's lots ofdifferent ways to do groups.
I just think that the spacethat we're filling, this is how
we do it.
You know, the church that wewere a part of in Atlanta, we
always thought in terms of afoyer, a living room and a
kitchen table, so that someenvironments are the foyer of
your house.
Right, it's everyone in nopreparation.
(21:34):
Show up, it's all good,whatever come, as you are.
The living rooms, you know thenext place you're hoping they
move to.
There's a little more intimacyand ultimately you sit around
and chair a meal at the kitchentable.
That's the most intimatesetting, and so we're a kitchen
table environment.
It sounds like the one you guysare doing now is a kitchen
table environment as well, and Iagree.
You know you get much biggerthan that.
(21:55):
There's just not time, there'sno space to talk.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
It's true.
Every man needs to be heard.
What do you think, Sarge?
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (22:04):
Yeah, I mean, I was thinking the same thing, exactly
what Mark just said, right, Imean, I think there there's a
place for all of it, you know,for for Mark and I, at this
point, you know we, you knowwe've I feel like we've emptied
our cups so much.
You know, leading and servingand facilitating and all of that
(22:24):
modeling, right Um, which whichis great and that's, and we
need to do that Um, but we justhappened to converge on a season
where we were like, wow, wejust, you know we need, we need,
this is what we need and it andit just you know it's got.
I think it's just God ordainedthis, his timing, and it just
made sense.
But there's certainly, as yousaid, mark, value to all of
(22:45):
those and you know, and, ofcourse, still participating in
many of those other environmentsand you know, inviting again,
facilitating, serving, modeling,and which is an important part
of, I'm sure, fits into the fiveF's there somewhere, right Um,
(23:05):
but, um, you know it'sinteresting.
I think you know you weretalking about how faith, you
know the faith component is, issort of the I forget the word
you use the skin or the, the,the, the the wrapping.
Speaker 5 (23:20):
The wrapping the wrapping.
Speaker 4 (23:21):
I was thinking crust Mark's Mark mentioned pizzas.
I was thinking crust.
Mark mentioned pizzas.
I was thinking crust, I don'tknow.
But you know, I'm really,really passionate about, you
know, a fully integrated lifeand and I think that that's,
that's, that's what you'regetting at and that's what
you're talking about.
(23:42):
Right, when you talk aboutfaith being the wrapping, it's
that, you know, it's, it's just,it is intertwined in every area
of life.
And you know, I know that inreading a little bit about
unravel and yourself, um, youknow, phrases like
transformational leadership, youknow, come up and that is
something that I've, you knowI've spent a lot of time digging
(24:05):
into and fostering,particularly in my vocation, and
you know, looking to both modeland foster that.
Talk to us a little bit aboutwhat you mean by that
transformational leadership.
Speaker 5 (24:22):
Yeah, and before that , just to amplify what you're
talking about, about thiswrapping with the faith we don't
want people to think faith islike, just like the Sunday
morning thing.
So it's a piece of my life, Ijust do it on Sundays.
We want them to realize it'sseven days, 24-7, so that
everything they're doing that isthe DNA that should inform all
(24:44):
aspects of their life, right?
So the transformationalleadership it's interesting
because that means so manydifferent things to different
people and we're not reallytrying to communicate to people
that there's one way to thinkabout that.
What we really want them tothink about in the context of
(25:05):
transformational leadership isthis when you are today is
you're at a spot today and webelieve that you could be much
further down the road.
And when you're finished here,we want you to be much further
down the road.
And when you're finished here,we want you to be much further
down the road as a leader.
And we're going to give yousome tools to become a better
(25:26):
leader and we're going to helpinspire you and encourage you
and raise your, expand yourthinking of what it means to be
a better leader.
But it's not something wherethey go.
Okay, this is the secret becausethere's so many books written
about it and there's so manyquote secrets to it.
No one of us could process allthe information out there on
what it means to be atransformational leader, but it
(25:48):
does mean transforming andchanging from where you are
today and that's the biggestthing for us progress.
So if you're a leader right nowand you're not effective in
inspiring your team, okay,that's an area that you need to
transform it.
If you're not a leader who'swell at investing in your team,
(26:10):
or you don't do well in humilityas a leader, or the list is
endless then we want you totransform in that and grow in
that.
Now, of course, there'sfundamental leadership skills
that people need to incorporate,but then again, outside of that
, there's so many ways peoplecan grow and transform.
So for us, it's more aboutprogress in that area of a
(26:33):
person, not like a finishingspot that they land on.
Speaker 4 (26:37):
So let me just being devil's advocate here.
To what end?
What's the end goal?
Speaker 5 (26:46):
Yeah, that's a great question and that's a very
important piece to obviously forus to have begun with the end
in mind.
So, very simply, it's this tolead men into a growing
relationship with Christ byequipping them for leadership
and the pursuit of excellence.
So the end is for them to growin their relationship with
Christ.
That's the ultimate objectiveand we want them to do that
(27:09):
within the context.
This environment is for thosetwo things equipping them for
leadership and the pursuit ofexcellence.
So we believe this much like amarriage.
So if you've got two people thatare married, neither come from
a faith perspective and they gothrough a premarital mentoring
environment or a premaritalequipping environment, that's a
(27:29):
good thing.
They're going to have a bettermarriage than they would if they
didn't do that.
Even though they're stillmissing the most important part,
it's still going to be better.
Important part, it's stillgoing to be better.
So for us, if men come throughthis and they're not Christians
or they don't encounter thatrelationship while they're in
Unravel, we still believethey're going to be in a better
spot along the journey becausewe've equipped them in these two
(27:52):
key areas that hopefully,ultimately will lead them into
that relationship.
But that's ultimately what it'sabout.
If they're not growing in that,then if ultimately we don't
have men growing in that area,then we've missed the mark, and
that informs everything that wedo.
Speaker 4 (28:08):
Love it.
Love it.
Well said, yeah, thank you, bythe way.
Speaker 5 (28:12):
I like that.
By the way, one of the symptomsof that is back to my original
point.
So let's just take themarketplace vocationally.
If you're in the marketplace,you've gone through Unravel and
people aren't noticing thatyou've changed or different.
You're now showing up better.
If they're not noticing that,then that's a big miss.
(28:33):
But if they are, then peopleare going to start to ask
questions and it's going tocreate that impact and create
that influence that we wantpeople to have in the
marketplace.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
Yeah, yeah, I love that answer, actually, that
Christ is the center of it, nomatter what else is going on.
I had my pizza pie.
There's five F's.
There's different ways to dogroups.
There's different ways to dogroups.
I have to admit, mark, when Iheard you talking about this
group size and some of thedynamics and what your pursuits
(29:05):
were, one of the things I oftenwonder about now.
Some of the guys in Victorioustogether we started this group
and I didn't know them very well.
You get to know each other, youget to trust each other, you
feel safe around each other andthe conversation gets deeper and
deeper and deeper.
Right, that's some of the groupdynamics we're used to seeing,
and what we really pray for isthat we can just be beautifully
(29:27):
honest in an environment likethat.
One of the roadblocks I'velearned over the years is men's
self-awareness seems to be alittle wonky, a little fuzzy
right.
Seems to be a little wonky, alittle fuzzy right.
One of the early potholes thatyou're liable to fall in in.
That group dynamic is sometimeswhat we you or I see in the
(29:47):
mirror isn't what the world seesor what the world tells us we
should see.
Right, one dysphoria or another.
So just what's your experiencein unravel groups, with men's
self-awareness getting in theway of you know, when you've got
a group of guys and you can seeit, man, you can smell it, it's
, you're close, right, you canfeel the power of the Holy
(30:07):
Spirit, but it just it getsclenched up.
Do you know what I'm talkingabout?
Speaker 5 (30:14):
I hear you and I get excited about.
That's one of my really bigthings.
It's like Henry Cloud.
He wrote this book calledintegrity and I'm pretty sure he
defined integrity this way thecourage to meet the demands of
reality.
And you think about that for aminute, like how can you have
integrity if you really don'tknow what reality is, reality
(30:36):
and that can be?
You think about those five F's.
If you're not really clearabout who you are and where you
are within that context ofreality, it's very hard to have
integrity.
It's very hard to move the balldown the field.
So that is a huge part for usis we want men to learn to be
able to come to grips with wherethey're on reality, and one of
(30:59):
the ways we do that is not justwith the questions, but it's
when men show up.
It's accepting nothing lessthan being prepared.
Just a simple example One ofthe books we do on Unravel is
called Thinking Fast, thinkingSlow.
It's a book by a Nobel laureate, daniel Kahneman, and it's not
(31:22):
an easy book to read.
It does, by the way, help usdiscover where we're not living
in reality and where we tend toobfuscate reality and live in a
different place.
But as an example.
You show up and someone showsyou say, hey, tell me what your
takeaways were.
How are you applying that inyour life?
And you know the typical answeris oh, it's a good book.
(31:44):
Or you know, I didn't reallylike that book that much.
Or yeah, there was some goodstuff and it's very esoteric
kind of answers yeah, thatdoesn't work in Unravel, it's.
You know, mark?
Yeah, you know, we're reallyworking on being prepared.
Doesn't sound like you reallyspend a lot of time preparing
your answer in that?
Or we're not going to say itspecifically that way.
(32:06):
But then they have to show up.
They know that when they haveto show up they have to be
prepared.
So if you know when you'regoing to show up that people are
going to not let you get awaywith the simple answers oh, it's
been a tough week, man, or youknow I'm in a tough season, or
there's accountability coming.
Good, that's right, it's.
It's not good.
You gotta.
(32:26):
You gotta come with a preparedanswer, prepared content, much
like you were making apresentation to someone.
Then it gets real in a hurry.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
Oh, we agree with that, Don't we Sarge?
Speaker 4 (32:36):
Sure do, brother it's .
Uh, it gets real in a hurry.
We agree with that, don't weSarge?
Sure do, brother, it gets realin a hurry.
Speaker 1 (32:43):
Mark Jordan can relate to this.
No, I know, everyone else can'tsee this.
Mark, can you see what I'mholding in my hands?
Speaker 5 (32:48):
Yes, I do see.
Yes, I see it.
I know that very well.
Speaker 1 (32:52):
Hammer and duct tape we keep it right here in the
foxhole to remind us that Goddoesn't need us to fix anybody.
That's one of our constants isif you come into a group with us
, we are not going to cure you,right?
That's herein lies that cyclefor self-awareness and
self-actualization, right whenpeople come into the fruit that
(33:12):
we really hope to see in themand in ourselves and they help
us grow.
But we literally keep a roll ofduct tape and a hammer around.
And it's mainly for me, BecauseI spent my first eight years in
men's ministry just fixingeverybody, you know, and it's
taken me another 10 years torealize how unimportant that is
and the list of priorities andwhat God, I think, calls us to
(33:34):
as leaders.
Stop fixing, you know.
Let the Holy Spirit do thefixing.
Speaker 5 (33:40):
Yeah, you guys know this too.
It's like if the other persondoesn't want it more than you do
, you're spitting in the wind.
I mean, they have to want itmore than you.
And that's the whole fixingthing.
Yeah, we can't fix anyone, butwe can equip them and if they
want it, bad enough, they willmake progress, and if they don't
, that's okay.
This isn't the time, by the way, that's.
Another big thing for Unravelis we do have conversations with
(34:03):
men, that they get in it andthey find out.
You know, they're just notshowing up and of course we have
grace for that and we equipthem.
Hey, we help them understand.
That's not going to work and ifthey continue that, we just say
, hey, you know what?
I think now may not be theright time.
We'd love for you to circleback around down the road.
There is no space to go throughUnravel.
Unravel 1 is 12 months long.
(34:23):
We meet once a month.
Then there's Unravel 2 and anongoing 3.
But there's no space to show upfor 12 months.
Not showing up prepared.
We just don't do it.
That's the idea.
You have to want it more thanus.
We're there to do everything wecan, but we can't make you do
it.
Speaker 1 (34:42):
Facilitation takes a lot of humility.
Speaker 4 (34:44):
Yes, Mark, what do you find is the catalyst for men
who come to Unravel?
What is it that gets them toreach out to you, to show up and
say I want to be a part of this, you know?
Speaker 5 (35:00):
gets them to reach out to you, to show up and say I
want to be a part of this.
They well, I said earlier, Ibelieve every man is stuck in
some area of his life.
Okay, the men that show up forUnravel, they have a heightened
sense of urgency to thatstuckness if that's such a word
they are realizing that this isreally becoming uncomfortable.
(35:21):
I really don't like this.
And that can manifest itself inany of those areas that we
talked about.
The typical man who's stuck butdoesn't realize it.
They think everything's great.
It's harder for them to have anencounter with unravel because
they just don't feel like theyneed it.
But it's the man that's feelingthat pressure, that urgency,
(35:43):
that pain that's the word pain.
They're feeling the pain in anarea of their life and going
this has got to get better, thishas got to give it.
I've tried stuff and it's justnot happening.
That's the typical man who, inall ages too, you know, from mid
twenties to you know, we've hadmen as old as you know, 70s in
the group.
So it doesn't matter the age,it's just having that pain and
(36:05):
going hey, I want to dosomething about it.
Speaker 1 (36:09):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, we agree age doesn't matter.
Right Sarge.
Some of the some mornings youshow up at Markman Weekendend P1
and there's everything fromteenagers Well, maybe not
teenagers, but you know20-somethings.
Speaker 4 (36:23):
Yeah, late teens yeah .
Speaker 1 (36:24):
Right to 70s.
Yeah, we agree.
We agree, Mark, do you have a?
I'm presuming you do, but theUnravel leadership, who is
around you, supporting you andhelping lead?
How is it set up?
Speaker 5 (36:40):
Who is around you, supporting you and helping lead?
How is it set up?
Yeah, well, unravel is a 501c3,of course, but we have an
incredible national leadershipteam.
I mean, these guys are justunbelievable.
The amount of commitment andenergy and passion that they put
into it is unbelievable.
You know, frankly, they're theones that really make the
(37:01):
biggest difference, you know, inwhat we're doing at Unravel.
So we have a nationalleadership team.
Okay, you know, we have somestaff.
We have staff as well, we havean executive director and we
have some, you know, operationalstaff as well to support that
effort.
But our national leadershipteam are the guys that are
really making the big differenceand really providing the fuel
and horsepower to continue tomove this thing down the road.
Speaker 1 (37:22):
Got it.
How many active groups do youhave going on right now?
Speaker 5 (37:26):
Yeah, I'm glad you asked that.
So let me first say we haveUnravel.
The way we look at impact is wehave multiple paths.
So impact one is we havesomething called Unravel Go.
That's a six-session, if youwill, individual self-paced
content.
It's not a group, it's anon-ramp.
So we talked about earlier whowill get involved in Unravel.
(37:49):
Well, there's a lot of men outthere that go.
Well, I don't know if I want tomake a year-long commitment yet
.
So we have Unravel Go.
That's a very easy six-week,self-paced.
We've had gosh.
I don't know the latest numbers, but hundreds of men sign up
for Unravel Go.
Then we have Unravel Labs.
That's paid curriculum.
(38:11):
Unravel Go is free.
That's paid content, same.
Each one is six sessions.
So it was like UnravelExcellence, unravel Leadership,
and that's all online, againself-paced.
Another on-ramp, easy.
Oh, unravel Go was free.
I liked that.
I got a lot of that.
Oh, let's do Unravel Lab.
That's kind of the next levelof commitment that I can make.
Then Unravel One is step number,the next step, and that's the
(38:35):
12-month.
Once a month, three hours ishow long we meet, and then
there's the work outside of thatthat occurs.
There's a book a month, there'spreparation time, there's some
other things that we do in Ravelthat take preparation time as
well and we've had at this pointover I think it's I think over
(38:57):
150 men have are either in orhave completely gone through
Unravel 1.
Okay.
Then we have Unravel 2.
That's a six month for guysthat have done Unravel 1.
That's a six month environmentwhere we just focus on
leadership.
Then finally, we have Unravel 3.
That's an environment that wewant to be long-term and that's
(39:17):
something we launched not thatlong ago.
So we've done the alpha groups,the beta groups, and now it's
officially a part of our programand that is, think the inklings
.
I don't know if you're familiarwith CS Lewis, jerry Artoken.
They had a group at Oxford.
They met weekly.
It was called the inklings.
So think inklings, but in thisenvironment.
So men show up inklings.
(39:41):
But in this environment.
So men show up, they have theskills.
It's an ongoing, once a monthgroup.
Hopefully they meet for therest of their life, but
obviously they don't have to.
They come and go as they wantto and they come and they show
up prepared to talk aboutdifficult topics, because
there's not many spaces to dothat anymore, and whatever's
important to them, I mean themost controversial topic they
can bring up and they can knowthat every man in that room is
(40:01):
going to be able to have healthydialogue around it.
Even if they don't agree whichthey won't agree, of course they
can have good discussion aroundit.
So it fosters and continues tocreate that fuel for growth.
Just a quick history 2016 iswhen we launched the first alpha
group in Unravel, where wetested it.
(40:24):
It went well.
Then we started launching somebeta groups and then we just
formed the 501c3 in 2022.
Okay, officially that waslaunched in 2022.
Early 2022 is when the 501c3was formed.
Our goal I'm being transparent,I'm always like man, it's kind
of embarrassing to say because,like, really, but it's to reach
(40:46):
a million men in 10 years.
That's our goal to touch amillion men in 10 years through
what we're doing at Unravel.
And I say that and I alwaysoffer that comment because I
recognize it sounds impossible.
You know, offer that comment tous because I recognize it
sounds impossible.
You know, and I know, I'mcrystal clear that we cannot do
that, apart from God doing whatneeds to be done to make that
(41:07):
happen.
We just want to do our part andso we're showing up, you know,
doing the best we can, knowingthat we're certainly not doing
it perfectly, but that's whatwe're trying to do.
Speaker 1 (41:17):
Well, I love it.
I was with a dear friend thisweekend at his daughter's
wedding and we were lamenting.
We're both serving in aministry.
He's a regional leader for aministry that I help out in with
leadership a couple weekends ayear and he was talking about
the overall ministry goal ofreaching 100,000 men by this
(41:38):
time.
And I could have this numberwrong, but let's just say that
people who have signed up forthis, they're up to about 15,000
.
These are people who haveactually attended a weekend and
continue in some way.
Long story short, we bothagreed without even hesitating,
just kind of smiled at eachother, that the pebble in the
(41:59):
pond for 15,000 men.
You're way over a hundredthousand already.
Oh, already Right, yeah Justjust the Holy Spirit at work.
Can we agree, the three of us,that God is so much bigger than
our calculators?
Speaker 5 (42:14):
right.
Speaker 1 (42:15):
This and I love your goal.
I love audacious, monstrouslybig goals.
I don't think you should beembarrassed of the goal at all,
because it says to me that we'rea kindred spirit, because you
believe in a really big God.
Speaker 5 (42:31):
I think to me, the more you understand like, the
more context you have of what'srealistic, then you have a much
greater appreciation for whatGod accomplishes, right?
So for me to think thatreaching a million men in 10
years, oh yeah, that's realistic.
(42:52):
Of course, that's a goal.
We got a good goal.
It's realistic.
I feel like when those thingshappen that are so incredibly
big that it's easy to miss, youknow what God accomplished, so
we're ahead of goal at thispoint, and it's really easy to
be ahead of goal in the firstcouple of years because the
numbers just are small, right.
Speaker 1 (43:13):
Everything's bigger than zero.
Speaker 5 (43:15):
I know, yeah, yeah, so we're way ahead of goal at
this point.
Now ask me in two or threeyears where we're at, because
the numbers start getting a lotbigger to meet.
To stay on point for goal atthat point.
Speaker 1 (43:25):
We get it.
We get it, Sarge.
Any more questions for Mark.
We're coming up on, I think, agood timeframe to pivot if we
want to.
Speaker 4 (43:34):
I mean I don't.
I mean I would love to justknow quickly, mark, like a
little bit more about you, yourheart, your story.
You know you mentioned you'vebeen involved in other groups
coming up and just tell us alittle bit more about your
journey of faith.
Speaker 5 (43:53):
Yeah, I love talking about that.
I think about my journey offaith.
I'm 62 now, I just turned 62last month and I think about it
like in three phases.
Phase one is that phase for mewhere my salvation is secure.
And for me I became a Christianat nine and not a lot changed
(44:14):
in that until I finishedgraduate school.
So let's say, nine throughgraduate school it was salvation
is secure.
That was kind of phase one.
I don't, I wouldn't, you know,certainly not nine and 10, but
you know, in high school andcollege and graduate school I
wouldn't characterize as a lotof what we would think of the
three of us is growth.
It's phase two for me.
(44:35):
I think I would probably usethe word community.
I think that's the first time.
When I finished graduate schooland got involved in this church
in Houston a wonderful church Ireally became exposed to the
first time that you could be ina community of men and that this
could be like a really regularpart of your life and begin to
(44:57):
you know, not infiltrate butbegin to impact, you know, all
aspects of your life and thatyou could begin to kind of do
this with other men.
So that was that phase twowhich occurred, I would say,
through.
You know that, let's see, thatwas 85, 85, 86.
And then I'd say the next phaseoccurs when we moved to Atlanta
(45:20):
, my wife and I and then ourchildren, when we raised there
in Atlanta and I think that wasthe late 80s maybe, when we were
in Atlanta and when weultimately were part of starting
this church in Atlanta, us andseveral hundred other people
North Point Community Church.
Speaker 1 (45:36):
Is that Mr Stanley's church?
Speaker 5 (45:38):
Yeah, andy Stanley, yeah, what I began to there.
Moving to phase three, whichwas what I'll call the service
phase, I began to realize, wow,man, there's so many areas to
serve and begin to really, youknow, leverage the gifts I had
and was so fortunate to beinvolved in there from the
(45:58):
beginning, because it gave me anopportunity to be involved in
so many launching and being apart of so many environments at
North Point that I really beganto see that this service piece
is huge for your personal growth.
Because you guys know as wellas I do, when you're serving in
these faith arenas and outsideof faith arenas, you experience
(46:20):
more growth, or at least as muchgrowth as the people you're
serving.
In these faith arenas andoutside of faith arenas, you
experience more growth, or atleast as much growth as the
people you're serving.
It's not like, oh, I'll do thisthing for them and they're
getting all.
No, you're getting just as muchas they are.
And I think that service phasereally kind of, I guess, created
for me a deeper understandingof what it really means to make
(46:41):
a difference in other people'slives.
And so we ended up and then Ithink I've shared with you guys
recall that we were thenbi-coastal, you know, for the
last 14 or so years, miami andMarina Del Rey.
We were part of starting achurch in North Hollywood
probably I don't know would,probably, I don't know eight,
(47:03):
nine years ago maybe.
And so each step along thatjourney is reminding me of how
big God is, how small I am andhow close we are and how God
touches.
God wants me to do my part.
I think that's the part where Isit here today and I go.
You know what?
(47:23):
God's always going to do hispart.
He just wants me to show up anddo my part, and I'm on a
journey of continuing todiscover what that looks like,
you know, on a daily basis.
Speaker 4 (47:35):
Yeah, appreciate that , man.
You've had some experiences forsure.
My goodness, that's excitingwork and it's hard work.
Yes, you know tilling that soiland you know setting that
foundation to.
You know, launch thoseministries is tough, it's tough
(47:57):
stuff.
Speaker 5 (47:59):
And you guys know it's so gratifying yeah, it's so
gratifying, robert.
Doing things that are yourgiftedness is married with a
need, it's so gratifying.
My career, vocationally, hasbeen in investment banking and
that's what my business has beenaround.
I've done some real estatestuff and some other businesses,
but investment banking has beenmy core business over the years
(48:21):
and so that's given me,obviously, the skills I've
developed in that that I've beenable to use in these areas
outside of that, and it's beenvery gratifying, you know, to
see God using that to make adifference.
I think that's the part that'shumbling and gratifying every
(48:42):
day.
Speaker 4 (48:43):
How did you find that environment in investment
banking as far as living a fullyintegrated, faith-filled life?
What was that environment likefor you coming up in investment
banking?
Speaker 5 (49:02):
what was that environment like for you?
You know, coming up ininvestment banking yeah, for me
there's.
Investment banking means somany different things to
different, yes, and there's alsodifferent segments of it.
So for me, what you read aboutin the Wall Street Journal was
not really the investmentbanking piece that I was
involved in.
That's the large transactionstuff.
Mine was what we call themiddle market, so think of deals
(49:22):
that are sub $200 million intransaction value.
That's deals that we focused inon.
So it was more M&A, mergers andacquisitions sort of stuff.
So what that means, and thereason that's important for
context, is most of the people Ideal with, and this was by
choice.
This is why I worked in asegment.
I really enjoy working withbusiness owners who have built
something that's reallyenjoyable to me.
(49:45):
That's who I enjoy connectingwith.
So my life, my vocationalcareer, has been spent
connecting with business ownerswho have built something.
So what it's done is it's givenme a very rich platform.
One is it's given me a veryrich platform not always, of
course, but opportunities tomake a difference in men's lives
(50:07):
in that regard.
Because why it's a pivotallife-changing moment for them
when they're going through atransaction to acquire or sell
or merge and they startexploring a lot of things in
their life and I'm the closestadvisor they have at that point
in time, and so I'm a personthat gets asked a lot of
questions.
So it's pretty cool.
It's been pretty cool.
(50:28):
My focus now is on unravel forthe most part, but it's it's
really been very cool.
That's awesome, really.
Speaker 4 (50:33):
That's awesome, great stuff.
That's good stuff, very greatstuff.
That's good stuff, very cool.
Speaker 1 (50:40):
So I have an idea Mark.
Yeah, I have an idea to close,Mr Mark, you have a chance here.
You have an open forum fortelling in a minute or so,
telling anyone who's listeningabout your passion, not only for
Unravel, but the world as youknow it, and it be that Mark's
world in your lens or the biggerworld at large.
(51:01):
This is your free time to speakabout whatever you'd like that
you feel strongly about.
Speaker 5 (51:08):
Yeah, I could talk for hours, so I'm glad you put a
limit on that.
That's why I did that.
I'm sure you've experiencedthat before, right?
Hey, I did mean 30 minutes more.
You know, if I think about whatI want to leave men with today,
there's mean 30 minutes more.
You know, if I think about,like, what would I want to leave
men with today?
There's so many different things, but I think if I could think
about leaving your listenerstoday with one thing, it would
(51:29):
be you can have almost anythingyou want, but you can have
everything you want, and life isabout tradeoff choices that you
have to make on a daily basis.
You're always going to have tocheat something, Right?
So you have to decideintentionally what you're going
to be cheating in those areasthat we discussed not faith, of
course, that's the wrapping, butwhat you're going to cheat and
cheat I mean loosely, not with anegative connotation and when
(51:55):
you begin to realize that, youstart to go okay, I've got to
make choices in my life.
So if that's the case, if Iwant to grow in this area, what
am I going to have to do toaccomplish that?
Maybe you have to work a littleharder for a season of life
than maybe you have in the past.
Maybe you're going to have togo to counseling.
Maybe you're going to have tospend more time with your family
the list is endless of whatthose things are.
(52:24):
You're at today.
Within that context oftrade-off choices you have to
make, you can be so much morebecause you're fearfully and
wonderfully made and that's whatGod wants for you.
He wants you to be more thanyou are today and he loves you
the way you are, but he wants somuch more for you and you can
have that.
And at Unravel Groups and theenvironments you guys have,
that's what we're about istrying to help you continue that
journey and embrace thatjourney.
Speaker 1 (52:45):
Thank you, that's awesome.
We appreciate that and we'rehonored to have Mark Jordan, the
founder of Unravel Groups, withus today.
Mark, thank you so much.
Thank you, guys.
We put a way in the show notesthat folks can contact you
directly into Unravel groups andmake the connection with you
and talk to you more about thedetails.
(53:05):
Just a little, the nuggets thatyou planted today and the seed
you planted.
Who knows what God might dowith those, with somebody
listening.
As Sarge said on minute numberone, we're hoping to reach one
listener, one with a messagethat draws them one inch closer
to our God.
There you go.
Speaker 5 (53:20):
That's it, man.
Yeah, that's all we can ask forlistener one with a message
that draws them one inch closerto our God.
Speaker 1 (53:22):
There you go.
Speaker 5 (53:23):
That's it, man.
Yeah, that's all we can ask for.
That's all we can ask for, amen.
I've enjoyed it.
Thanks for hanging out, thanksfor having me on Good man,
thanks for coming.
Speaker 4 (53:32):
Mark, we were made for more, so I would just
encourage our listeners to don'tjust be you.
Be you in Christ you don't justbe you.
Speaker 3 (53:43):
Be you in Christ.
You were made for more Amen,peace.
It's time to get intentionalFaith, family, friends, fitness
and finances.
Where do I have room to grow,improve, learn.
Where am I stuck?
How about you?
I'll tell you what Unravelsounds like a great opportunity
(54:08):
to open our eyes to areas weneed to improve in and to
receive the community and toolsto make it happen.
Praise God.
Don't let this opportunity slipinto the noise of your day.
Stop ask God if this is for you.
Praise God.
Don't let this opportunity slipinto the noise of your day.
Stop Ask God if this is for youand if he gives you peace about
(54:31):
it.
Go check them out atwwwunrivalgroupscom.
Lord, please continue to usethis podcast to impact the lives
of all who listen.
I ask that you would bring hopeand healing to each and every
one of them.
Meet them right where they areand reveal yourself to them like
only you can do, in Jesus' nameamen.
Speaker 2 (54:50):
If you enjoyed today's episode, please share it
and invite others to theFoxhole.
You can find us wherever youdownload your favorite podcasts.
Be sure to subscribe so youknow when new episodes drop, and
please rate us and commentthere too, as it'll help us get
found by others who couldbenefit.
Find, follow and like us onyour go-to social media networks
by searching Foxhole Symphonyor visit foxholesymphonycom to
(55:11):
make it super easy to find us.
Drop us a line with feedback,questions, topic requests.
Who knows, maybe you'll be aguest on a future episode.
In the meantime, prepare tomove, embrace discomfort and
just be you.
Welcome to Foxhole Symphony, a podcast about the
transformational value of men inauthentic community.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
In our foxhole.
Men are equipped to buildrelationships that foster
belonging, accountability andgrowth.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
Stop believing the lie that you can thrive in
isolation and instead join us onthe journey from broken to
whole.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
Hello everyone.
They call me the Maestro and weare back in the foxhole where
we actively pursue belonging,accountability and growth
through authentic relationships.
No masks, no agendas, just ironsharpening iron.
Steve and Mark are in thefoxhole today and they have a
guest with them.
Let me ask you something Areyou ready to get unraveled?
Let's open our hearts, ourminds and our favorite notes app
(00:51):
, because here we go.
Speaker 4 (00:53):
Hey, welcome back to Foxhole Symphony Podcast.
I'm Sarge here with my goodfriend Mark.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
Hey brother.
Speaker 4 (01:00):
How are you?
Speaker 1 (01:01):
Oh, I'm not melting in Florida, you're not, no it
was.
Speaker 4 (01:03):
I'm not melting in Florida, you're not.
No, it was, I'm melting alittle bit.
I'm melting a little bit.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
Bro, we're having these 40s at night here in
Jersey.
I heard, I heard I'm notrubbing it in I heard about it?
Speaker 4 (01:15):
Yes, you are.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
A little.
I'm sorry you are, I'm rubbingit in a little, but Listen take
all the shots you want.
Speaker 4 (01:22):
My time's coming, baby.
My time is coming About threemonths.
I'm going to take my shots, butit's good to see your face and
hear your voice, of course, andI'm excited to have a guest with
us in the foxhole, and so whydon't you get us started and
intro our guest?
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Sure, absolutely.
Ladies and gentlemen, this isMark Jordan, the founder of
Unravel Groups.
Let me tell you a little bitabout Mark before we start
talking with him.
Mark is the founder of UnravelGroups, an accomplished
entrepreneur with a richbackground in investment,
banking, real estate andfinancial services.
Mark has authored several booksand initiated numerous
impactful projects.
(02:01):
He passionately mentors mendriving transformational growth
across spiritual, relational andvocational realms.
A true advocate for integrity,leadership and service, mark's
insights are fueled by hisdiverse experiences and deep
commitment to helping othersexcel.
Join us as we explore hisjourney and wisdom.
Mark Jordan, welcome in thefoxhole.
Speaker 5 (02:23):
Thank you guys.
Thanks for having me.
Man, that sounds good readingthat Mark.
Wow, that sounds pretty good.
I need to compliment the teammember who wrote that man.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
So, Mark, you know what.
It's going to be appropriatefor us to start simply by
Unravel Group.
Sarge and I were having alittle fun with that before
You've heard all the puns, I'msure.
But tell us about the journeyof Unravel Groups and what that
really means.
Is that a ministry?
Is that a business?
Is it both?
Tell us more about it, please.
Speaker 5 (02:56):
Yeah, and I'm welcome All the puns you got, man.
So yeah, injecting some humorinto it is great.
So life is hard and seriousenough, that's for sure.
Amen.
The name Unravel, first, thegenesis for it is this idea from
Isaiah 6, the first eight or soverses of Isaiah, that part of
(03:17):
it is this encounter that Isaiahhas and he has this realization
that the gap between him andGod is so big.
And he has this realizationthat the gap between him and God
is so big.
And then, before he can reallyexperience growth, there's this
unraveling or disintegrationthat needs to occur first, then
creating space for integrationto occur, or the maturation
(03:40):
process, development becomingmore Christ-like over time, and
so that unravel is really.
That's really what's behind itis.
We've created this small groupenvironment and other adjacent
content, if you will.
That's all about helping menlearn to become better leaders,
(04:00):
but also to learn to pursueexcellence in a more meaningful
way, because we really feel likethat.
On the whole, this is ageneralization.
There's exceptions, of course,but men in general, christian
men in general, don't have areputation in the marketplace
for excellence.
They just don't.
You know, it's not like they gooh wow, that guy's clearly a
(04:21):
Christian because look howexcellent he is in the workplace
, more times than not,oftentimes it's mediocre.
And so, while Enravel Grips isnot just for Christian men that
was really what spurred me onwas going wow, you know I met
regularly with some young guys,and one in particular, that
really we started talking.
We need to launch this for menat large, because there's so
(04:46):
many men that just don'tunderstand what it means to be
the best you can be in themarketplace and what that, how
that reflects not only God butalso just their own testimony in
the marketplace.
So that was the genesis behindit.
Came from that and reallywanting men to be better at that
.
Cool.
Speaker 4 (05:04):
Thank you.
So I got, I got to jump.
I got to jump on that Cause Iyou know it's, and I read a
little bit about that in in your, in your materials, and you
know if I'm honest which I amand I will be you know I read
the word excellence and I wentOoh, you know, like I come up in
some, some church environmentswhere you know actually it's a
(05:24):
dirty word, Right.
It put me on my heels a littlebit and I went.
Man, I can't wait to unpackthis and talk to Mark about what
he means by that, andespecially if you know you're
reaching out to men who you knowaren't mature in their faith.
So I don't want to lead theconversation too far, but I want
(05:46):
to hear from you Unpackexcellence for me and what we
mean by that.
Speaker 5 (05:50):
It's so interesting.
You said that because you'reright, it is a dirty word in the
sort of faith community atlarge, in many elements of the
faith community.
So, first, excellence means acouple of things.
First, it means a couple ofthings.
First, it means doing what yousay you're going to do.
When you say you're going to doit all the time, in every
(06:12):
environment that you show up in,we're not talking about
perfection.
We have a phrase that we use alot in Unravel, which is
progress, not perfection.
So are you on a journey to showup prepared in every environment
that you show up in?
So doing what you say when yousay?
Second is when you show up forsomething workplace, your
(06:32):
marriage or friendships,whatever are you prepared in a
way that separates you fromeveryone else?
And the fact is most peopledon't show up prepared.
So if you think about it inthose two ways, just those two
things, and we could of courseexpand in many other you know
descriptive phrases.
And then you think about thechurch world.
And you're right, it's like somany times in church world, if
(06:54):
you're available, you're hired.
That's it.
If you're available and you'rewilling, then you're hired
Instead of where are you gifted?
And then let's then teach youand then let's have a high
expectation that demandsexcellence in everything, across
all aspects of what you know,of what venue that you're
operating in.
So it's so interesting you saidthat it's something that really
(07:17):
drives me crazy was veryfortunate when we were in the
early formative years and ouryoung family, we were part of
starting a church in Atlanta.
That really showed me for thefirst time how you can have
excellence in the church.
You know the church world andit was so.
(07:37):
It just it really inspired meto not just have it in the
workplace but also in the churchworld as well.
Speaker 4 (07:46):
Well, I appreciate you unpacking that and you know,
and of course I you know, Ithought I might have been, you
know, teetering on the brink ofpotential insult.
And of course but no, but seeingthe word, I figured there was
more to unpack there, and so Iwanted to start there because
and I thought you did that sowell and it makes sense, and I
(08:08):
think there's a tendency perhapsto view excellence as one
extreme or the other, right,like it's either a dirty word
and it's evil, or it's fully onyour own strength, right and by
your own power and devoid of Godin you, right, and and by your
own power and devoid of, uh, ofof of God in you, right, and so
those are two extremes that youknow it doesn't have to mean
(08:32):
that Right and to your point.
As you were talking andexplaining that, one of the
words that came to mind wasintentionality.
You know intentionality, andand and I was thinking, wow,
that's.
You know, in some of thecircles that Mark and I, you
know, serve in, we hear, youknow words like intentionality
and intensity.
You know which are important.
You know they're important tohave.
(08:54):
You know, as we look to serveGod and serve others, and as you
were describing what you meanby excellence, those were some
of the words that came to mind.
Speaker 5 (09:02):
What you mean by excellence?
Those were some of the wordsthat came to mind.
Yeah, steve, you know you thinkabout the people that have come
before us historically,particularly biblically.
These were people that wereprepared, man, I mean, when they
showed up for their chosenfield or what they were chosen
for.
These were people that wereprepared and intentional.
They didn't just show up and go, oh, I don't know.
(09:23):
Let me just think off the topof my head and, you know, share
a thought with you they wereintensely prepared and
intentional.
So, yeah, intentionality is suchan important part and we want
it to be.
It's really not just about, ofcourse, as I said earlier,
christians.
This is for all men.
So I don't just think it's inthe Christian space, I just
think it's more disappointing tosee it in the church space.
(09:47):
If it's not in the church space, it's not as disappointing.
But men, I think inherently,steve, I think they know that
they can be more.
They know they can deliver more, they know they can show up
better prepared.
Oftentimes they just haven'thad people encourage them and
give them tools to do that with,and that's what we do at
Unravel.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
That's really interesting to me, Sarge.
I'm going to grab a couple ofthings.
First of all, I'm thinkingabout the message you're trying
to communicate in the churchworld is a message from the
heart.
You can speak your heartlanguage at church.
We're just more comfortabledoing it there.
In the secular world, we tendto talk from our heads.
Speaker 5 (10:27):
Yeah, in Unravel we try to sit above First.
We try to stay away from thetypical church language because
we believe that every good,truthful principle has come from
God anyway, right?
Whether it's a book written byan author know an author who
isn't faith-based, or whetherit's one from who is faith-based
(10:47):
, if it's a truthful principle,it all came from God anyway.
So we want to sit above thatand talk and really focus on
principle.
It's very principle-driven andwe try to think in terms of
faith, family, friends, fitness,finances, which is another way
of categorizing what you justsaid, mark.
So obviously, the faith pieceis not a piece of our life.
(11:09):
It's the wrapping, it's the DNAthat flows through everything.
The other things are parts ofour life and we've found that
every man is stuck in at leastone of those areas of his life,
regardless of age, regardless ofaccomplishments of those areas
of his life, regardless of age,regardless of accomplishments,
he's stuck in one area.
At least one area of that lifeor, said another way, has room
(11:30):
for lots of growth that he'svery aware of, right?
Sometimes it's more than that.
So in unravel groups there'llbe a collection of men who are
stuck in different areas, sowhen they come in.
We're focused on principles andevery month is a different,
attacks a different area oraddresses a different area, and
(11:51):
then provide skills in thoseareas that transcend that
particular slice.
So if you're stuck in yourfamily area, someone else is
stuck in their friends, or let'scall that interpersonal area
area, someone else is stuck intheir friends, or let's call
that interpersonal area.
The principles that they learntranscend the area so that they
can apply that and whereverthey're stuck in.
And then we want men to seethis, so men that are in it that
(12:15):
don't come from a faithbackground, maybe they're not
even curious about that.
We believe that this can eitherbe maybe a seed and maybe it's
going to get watered in adifferent venue after this,
maybe it's already been plantedand it's been watered and maybe
it will come to fruition inunravel.
But we want them if theyhaven't been exposed to that,
they're going to know.
It's clear through our contentthat this is a faith-based
(12:37):
environment and it's clear thatthey're going to be exposed to
the truth.
The men that do come arefaith-based environment, then
they obviously have that grid tolook through.
But those that don't are going.
Where did this come from?
Well, it came from truth, youknow, and we're able to share
that with them, and it's, it's.
We've seen the life change hasbeen so incredibly exciting and
(12:57):
encouraging and humbling.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
Wow, that must be a fantastic environment to be in.
Can we zero in on the friendsone for a moment?
Speaker 5 (13:08):
Yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
Can you give me a couple of the principles,
because I want to go there,because I want to talk to you
about, I think it's theredefining of men's groups, what
that looks like, the new era ofmen's wellness, right?
As part of Unravel I wasreading about.
Speaker 5 (13:25):
Yeah, yeah.
So a lot of this came from myexperience growing up.
Growing up, you know, as anadult, and I experienced sort of
two ends of the spectrum forgroups.
I experienced a traditionalcommunity group, you know from
your church, which was awesomeand there's a great place for it
, which typically was moresocially oriented no real
preparation, typically there'sexceptions.
(13:46):
Place for it, which typicallywas more socially oriented no
real preparation, typicallythere's exceptions, but it's
more show up, hang time, maybesome quote, accountability, and
so that's one piece.
The other end of the spectrum,let's say, was like a BSF I
don't know if you're familiarwith that which I loved and did
that.
It's wonderful, it's moreintellectual, it's a seven-year
program through the body andit's wonderful.
Out it's wonderful, it's moreintellectual, it's a seven-year
program through the body andit's wonderful and it's not for
(14:08):
everyone.
So I really felt like there wasthis place in the middle that I
just didn't see a lot out therefor where men I feel like men
really feel like they needthey've accomplished something
and they've moved the ball downthe field and whatever the
environment is.
So the social ones I don't feellike create that feeling most
of the time, where they reallyfeel like they've run this
marathon together with a man,but yet the BSF is a little too
(14:32):
intellectual for most men.
So this center part is where wewanted to land that sort of
marries, those two.
There's some hard work.
You feel like you're running amarathon, but you're also doing
it in community, because we allknow scalable, sustained growth
is best done in a community, asmall group, not individually.
The average person, I think,reads one and a half books a
(14:53):
year and even if they read thebest book in the year, the best
book they could possibly read,it's hard to scale that growth
when you're just by yourselfreading a book.
So within that context you takethe friend's piece.
So a man that's in a Ravelgroup is going to learn a
principle, let's say.
One principle is there's asimple one.
I didn't come up with this youreap what you sow, but it's
(15:15):
later and greater.
Most people think of you justreap what you sow and that's it.
They forget about the later andgreater part.
So if a person's stuck infriendships, they need to be
reminded that hey, if you're notexperiencing life-giving
interpersonal relationships,then maybe you need to look at
where you're investing, whatseeds you're sowing in that.
(15:38):
And if you're not doing that,how can you be reaping the
life-giving experience of anintimate relationship with other
men?
Another example would be crucialconversations.
You know, most people aren'tequipped to have crucial
conversations where they canreally sit down and go okay,
particularly in today's world.
Right, we disagree on somethingor I need to share with you,
(16:02):
mark, you know this.
I don't really feel like ourrelationship has really
progressed to the level that Iwould like for it to.
How do you feel about that?
Or just not having the tools tohave healthy, crucial
conversations?
That's another example.
But that's applicable not justinterpersonally with friends,
but with your family, right, youknow?
And when we say finances, we'rereferring to not just money,
but your vocation, yourworkplace.
(16:24):
It's applicable there.
So that's an example of how wetry to take these things and we
help men see they're applicablein all areas of their life.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
So there's overlap in the five F's.
Speaker 5 (16:35):
Absolutely yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
And interesting, because the Foxhole Symphony,
this quest for authenticcommunity Sarge and I talk about
every episode is born in thatcommunity.
You can find belonging,accountability and growth.
Those are the three principlesthat we use as constants.
There are many others, butthose are the constants that we
(16:59):
find and that growth I thinkyou're talking about that as
well growing in your friendship,relational abilities, your
vocation, growing in your familyconnection, et cetera, et
cetera 100 percent Progress, notperfection.
Speaker 5 (17:13):
It's interesting you mentioned accountability.
My personal experience has beenover the years that
accountability is somethingobviously very important and
when we need it the most we'regenerally the least likely to
ask for it, meaning that even ifwe're in a group and the group
is quote an accountability group, and if I'm struggling with
(17:34):
something, it's not likely in mybiggest struggling moment I'm
going to say to the group hey,I'm doing this thing over here,
I need someone to get it.
It doesn't usually work thatway.
That's been my experience, atleast in groups that I've been
in.
So we're trying to not onlycreate the space for that, but
(17:56):
to give men the tools so thatthey're more equipped not only
just in that space theaccountability space but all the
others as well to have betterconversations around it, so that
they are more willing you knowwhen the time comes.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
I understand that.
I'm sorry for dominating Mark,but it's a Mark thing, you
understand right, Listen.
Speaker 4 (18:19):
I knew that from the beginning.
That's why I got my words inright up front.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
I was like I got to get my.
I got to get my five minutes inhere.
Last 18 years there's been amen's group called Band of
Brothers Funny, it had a lot todo with Tom Hanks and that part,
but Band of Brothers has met inmy basement every other
Thursday for 18 years.
Speaker 3 (18:50):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
Right and Sarge and I also participate in a ministry
called Marked Men for Christ,and others for that matter.
But we've been leading in thatenvironment and now find
ourselves where those are biggroup environments.
You can have meetings with 20,30, 40 people and personally, as
(19:11):
I got older, the intimacyfactor became more and more and
more important for me and Ifound that I really wanted to
stop.
The larger group environment,Band of Brothers, was a come as
you are right.
We weren't taking attendance ordues.
Just bring a snack and bring it, and you can be secular, you
can be faith-based, you can comefrom whatever gutter that you
(19:34):
want to.
We had a lot of broken soulsthere, a lot of addiction,
things like that Folks lookingfor just a place that could be
safe.
But now Sarge and I participatein a group called Victorious
Together and it's five men, andthose five men are going deep,
are accountable, are sharpeningeach other, are learning and
(19:56):
sharing our deepest, deepestjoys.
Concerns challenges, fears,sinful nature, all the things
that God made in what I call ourbent.
Challenges, fears, sinfulnature, all the things that God
made in what I call our bent,not broken world, right.
So that's where our heads andhearts are now where the smaller
, more intimate group of menwilling to commit to meet two to
(20:16):
three times a month in personwhenever possible, or via
technology if we have to.
But I can tell you I don't knowhow big the unravel meetings
can be or how you propose thathappen For us today in Sarge.
You can jump in any time.
We have simply decided to havea very small, deep pool to play
(20:40):
in, to grow in our faith, to seewhat God's plan might be for
the best version of SteveSargent and Mark Vesper.
Speaker 5 (20:50):
Yeah, definitely for us.
You know, group sizes are, youknow, six to eight, you know,
with six being the ideal size,seven or eight is fine, but any
larger than that.
We've had them as big as nine,but it gets a bit challenging.
Those guys are committed.
We've had them as big as nine,but it gets a bit challenging.
Those guys are committed, youknow, when they it's not a kind.
(21:11):
And, by the way, one thing I dowant to say, because sometimes I
get so excited about unravelgroups I can sometimes
communicate that it's the onlyway to do a group.
I don't think that at all.
I think there's lots ofdifferent ways to do groups.
I just think that the spacethat we're filling, this is how
we do it.
You know, the church that wewere a part of in Atlanta, we
always thought in terms of afoyer, a living room and a
kitchen table, so that someenvironments are the foyer of
your house.
Right, it's everyone in nopreparation.
(21:34):
Show up, it's all good,whatever come, as you are.
The living rooms, you know thenext place you're hoping they
move to.
There's a little more intimacyand ultimately you sit around
and chair a meal at the kitchentable.
That's the most intimatesetting, and so we're a kitchen
table environment.
It sounds like the one you guysare doing now is a kitchen
table environment as well, and Iagree.
You know you get much biggerthan that.
(21:55):
There's just not time, there'sno space to talk.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
It's true.
Every man needs to be heard.
What do you think, Sarge?
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (22:04):
Yeah, I mean, I was thinking the same thing, exactly
what Mark just said, right, Imean, I think there there's a
place for all of it, you know,for for Mark and I, at this
point, you know we, you knowwe've I feel like we've emptied
our cups so much.
You know, leading and servingand facilitating and all of that
(22:24):
modeling, right Um, which whichis great and that's, and we
need to do that Um, but we justhappened to converge on a season
where we were like, wow, wejust, you know we need, we need,
this is what we need and it andit just you know it's got.
I think it's just God ordainedthis, his timing, and it just
made sense.
But there's certainly, as yousaid, mark, value to all of
(22:45):
those and you know, and, ofcourse, still participating in
many of those other environmentsand you know, inviting again,
facilitating, serving, modeling,and which is an important part
of, I'm sure, fits into the fiveF's there somewhere, right Um,
(23:05):
but, um, you know it'sinteresting.
I think you know you weretalking about how faith, you
know the faith component is, issort of the I forget the word
you use the skin or the, the,the, the the wrapping.
Speaker 5 (23:20):
The wrapping the wrapping.
Speaker 4 (23:21):
I was thinking crust Mark's Mark mentioned pizzas.
I was thinking crust.
Mark mentioned pizzas.
I was thinking crust, I don'tknow.
But you know, I'm really,really passionate about, you
know, a fully integrated lifeand and I think that that's,
that's, that's what you'regetting at and that's what
you're talking about.
(23:42):
Right, when you talk aboutfaith being the wrapping, it's
that, you know, it's, it's just,it is intertwined in every area
of life.
And you know, I know that inreading a little bit about
unravel and yourself, um, youknow, phrases like
transformational leadership, youknow, come up and that is
something that I've, you knowI've spent a lot of time digging
(24:05):
into and fostering,particularly in my vocation, and
you know, looking to both modeland foster that.
Talk to us a little bit aboutwhat you mean by that
transformational leadership.
Speaker 5 (24:22):
Yeah, and before that , just to amplify what you're
talking about, about thiswrapping with the faith we don't
want people to think faith islike, just like the Sunday
morning thing.
So it's a piece of my life, Ijust do it on Sundays.
We want them to realize it'sseven days, 24-7, so that
everything they're doing that isthe DNA that should inform all
(24:44):
aspects of their life, right?
So the transformationalleadership it's interesting
because that means so manydifferent things to different
people and we're not reallytrying to communicate to people
that there's one way to thinkabout that.
What we really want them tothink about in the context of
(25:05):
transformational leadership isthis when you are today is
you're at a spot today and webelieve that you could be much
further down the road.
And when you're finished here,we want you to be much further
down the road.
And when you're finished here,we want you to be much further
down the road as a leader.
And we're going to give yousome tools to become a better
(25:26):
leader and we're going to helpinspire you and encourage you
and raise your, expand yourthinking of what it means to be
a better leader.
But it's not something wherethey go.
Okay, this is the secret becausethere's so many books written
about it and there's so manyquote secrets to it.
No one of us could process allthe information out there on
what it means to be atransformational leader, but it
(25:48):
does mean transforming andchanging from where you are
today and that's the biggestthing for us progress.
So if you're a leader right nowand you're not effective in
inspiring your team, okay,that's an area that you need to
transform it.
If you're not a leader who'swell at investing in your team,
(26:10):
or you don't do well in humilityas a leader, or the list is
endless then we want you totransform in that and grow in
that.
Now, of course, there'sfundamental leadership skills
that people need to incorporate,but then again, outside of that
, there's so many ways peoplecan grow and transform.
So for us, it's more aboutprogress in that area of a
(26:33):
person, not like a finishingspot that they land on.
Speaker 4 (26:37):
So let me just being devil's advocate here.
To what end?
What's the end goal?
Speaker 5 (26:46):
Yeah, that's a great question and that's a very
important piece to obviously forus to have begun with the end
in mind.
So, very simply, it's this tolead men into a growing
relationship with Christ byequipping them for leadership
and the pursuit of excellence.
So the end is for them to growin their relationship with
Christ.
That's the ultimate objectiveand we want them to do that
(27:09):
within the context.
This environment is for thosetwo things equipping them for
leadership and the pursuit ofexcellence.
So we believe this much like amarriage.
So if you've got two people thatare married, neither come from
a faith perspective and they gothrough a premarital mentoring
environment or a premaritalequipping environment, that's a
(27:29):
good thing.
They're going to have a bettermarriage than they would if they
didn't do that.
Even though they're stillmissing the most important part,
it's still going to be better.
Important part, it's stillgoing to be better.
So for us, if men come throughthis and they're not Christians
or they don't encounter thatrelationship while they're in
Unravel, we still believethey're going to be in a better
spot along the journey becausewe've equipped them in these two
(27:52):
key areas that hopefully,ultimately will lead them into
that relationship.
But that's ultimately what it'sabout.
If they're not growing in that,then if ultimately we don't
have men growing in that area,then we've missed the mark, and
that informs everything that wedo.
Speaker 4 (28:08):
Love it.
Love it.
Well said, yeah, thank you, bythe way.
Speaker 5 (28:12):
I like that.
By the way, one of the symptomsof that is back to my original
point.
So let's just take themarketplace vocationally.
If you're in the marketplace,you've gone through Unravel and
people aren't noticing thatyou've changed or different.
You're now showing up better.
If they're not noticing that,then that's a big miss.
(28:33):
But if they are, then peopleare going to start to ask
questions and it's going tocreate that impact and create
that influence that we wantpeople to have in the
marketplace.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
Yeah, yeah, I love that answer, actually, that
Christ is the center of it, nomatter what else is going on.
I had my pizza pie.
There's five F's.
There's different ways to dogroups.
There's different ways to dogroups.
I have to admit, mark, when Iheard you talking about this
group size and some of thedynamics and what your pursuits
(29:05):
were, one of the things I oftenwonder about now.
Some of the guys in Victorioustogether we started this group
and I didn't know them very well.
You get to know each other, youget to trust each other, you
feel safe around each other andthe conversation gets deeper and
deeper and deeper.
Right, that's some of the groupdynamics we're used to seeing,
and what we really pray for isthat we can just be beautifully
(29:27):
honest in an environment likethat.
One of the roadblocks I'velearned over the years is men's
self-awareness seems to be alittle wonky, a little fuzzy
right.
Seems to be a little wonky, alittle fuzzy right.
One of the early potholes thatyou're liable to fall in in.
That group dynamic is sometimeswhat we you or I see in the
(29:47):
mirror isn't what the world seesor what the world tells us we
should see.
Right, one dysphoria or another.
So just what's your experiencein unravel groups, with men's
self-awareness getting in theway of you know, when you've got
a group of guys and you can seeit, man, you can smell it, it's
, you're close, right, you canfeel the power of the Holy
(30:07):
Spirit, but it just it getsclenched up.
Do you know what I'm talkingabout?
Speaker 5 (30:14):
I hear you and I get excited about.
That's one of my really bigthings.
It's like Henry Cloud.
He wrote this book calledintegrity and I'm pretty sure he
defined integrity this way thecourage to meet the demands of
reality.
And you think about that for aminute, like how can you have
integrity if you really don'tknow what reality is, reality
(30:36):
and that can be?
You think about those five F's.
If you're not really clearabout who you are and where you
are within that context ofreality, it's very hard to have
integrity.
It's very hard to move the balldown the field.
So that is a huge part for usis we want men to learn to be
able to come to grips with wherethey're on reality, and one of
(30:59):
the ways we do that is not justwith the questions, but it's
when men show up.
It's accepting nothing lessthan being prepared.
Just a simple example One ofthe books we do on Unravel is
called Thinking Fast, thinkingSlow.
It's a book by a Nobel laureate, daniel Kahneman, and it's not
(31:22):
an easy book to read.
It does, by the way, help usdiscover where we're not living
in reality and where we tend toobfuscate reality and live in a
different place.
But as an example.
You show up and someone showsyou say, hey, tell me what your
takeaways were.
How are you applying that inyour life?
And you know the typical answeris oh, it's a good book.
(31:44):
Or you know, I didn't reallylike that book that much.
Or yeah, there was some goodstuff and it's very esoteric
kind of answers yeah, thatdoesn't work in Unravel, it's.
You know, mark?
Yeah, you know, we're reallyworking on being prepared.
Doesn't sound like you reallyspend a lot of time preparing
your answer in that?
Or we're not going to say itspecifically that way.
(32:06):
But then they have to show up.
They know that when they haveto show up they have to be
prepared.
So if you know when you'regoing to show up that people are
going to not let you get awaywith the simple answers oh, it's
been a tough week, man, or youknow I'm in a tough season, or
there's accountability coming.
Good, that's right, it's.
It's not good.
You gotta.
(32:26):
You gotta come with a preparedanswer, prepared content, much
like you were making apresentation to someone.
Then it gets real in a hurry.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
Oh, we agree with that, Don't we Sarge?
Speaker 4 (32:36):
Sure do, brother it's .
Uh, it gets real in a hurry.
We agree with that, don't weSarge?
Sure do, brother, it gets realin a hurry.
Speaker 1 (32:43):
Mark Jordan can relate to this.
No, I know, everyone else can'tsee this.
Mark, can you see what I'mholding in my hands?
Speaker 5 (32:48):
Yes, I do see.
Yes, I see it.
I know that very well.
Speaker 1 (32:52):
Hammer and duct tape we keep it right here in the
foxhole to remind us that Goddoesn't need us to fix anybody.
That's one of our constants isif you come into a group with us
, we are not going to cure you,right?
That's herein lies that cyclefor self-awareness and
self-actualization, right whenpeople come into the fruit that
(33:12):
we really hope to see in themand in ourselves and they help
us grow.
But we literally keep a roll ofduct tape and a hammer around.
And it's mainly for me, BecauseI spent my first eight years in
men's ministry just fixingeverybody, you know, and it's
taken me another 10 years torealize how unimportant that is
and the list of priorities andwhat God, I think, calls us to
(33:34):
as leaders.
Stop fixing, you know.
Let the Holy Spirit do thefixing.
Speaker 5 (33:40):
Yeah, you guys know this too.
It's like if the other persondoesn't want it more than you do
, you're spitting in the wind.
I mean, they have to want itmore than you.
And that's the whole fixingthing.
Yeah, we can't fix anyone, butwe can equip them and if they
want it, bad enough, they willmake progress, and if they don't
, that's okay.
This isn't the time, by the way, that's.
Another big thing for Unravelis we do have conversations with
(34:03):
men, that they get in it andthey find out.
You know, they're just notshowing up and of course we have
grace for that and we equipthem.
Hey, we help them understand.
That's not going to work and ifthey continue that, we just say
, hey, you know what?
I think now may not be theright time.
We'd love for you to circleback around down the road.
There is no space to go throughUnravel.
Unravel 1 is 12 months long.
(34:23):
We meet once a month.
Then there's Unravel 2 and anongoing 3.
But there's no space to show upfor 12 months.
Not showing up prepared.
We just don't do it.
That's the idea.
You have to want it more thanus.
We're there to do everything wecan, but we can't make you do
it.
Speaker 1 (34:42):
Facilitation takes a lot of humility.
Speaker 4 (34:44):
Yes, Mark, what do you find is the catalyst for men
who come to Unravel?
What is it that gets them toreach out to you, to show up and
say I want to be a part of this, you know?
Speaker 5 (35:00):
gets them to reach out to you, to show up and say I
want to be a part of this.
They well, I said earlier, Ibelieve every man is stuck in
some area of his life.
Okay, the men that show up forUnravel, they have a heightened
sense of urgency to thatstuckness if that's such a word
they are realizing that this isreally becoming uncomfortable.
(35:21):
I really don't like this.
And that can manifest itself inany of those areas that we
talked about.
The typical man who's stuck butdoesn't realize it.
They think everything's great.
It's harder for them to have anencounter with unravel because
they just don't feel like theyneed it.
But it's the man that's feelingthat pressure, that urgency,
(35:43):
that pain that's the word pain.
They're feeling the pain in anarea of their life and going
this has got to get better, thishas got to give it.
I've tried stuff and it's justnot happening.
That's the typical man who, inall ages too, you know, from mid
twenties to you know, we've hadmen as old as you know, 70s in
the group.
So it doesn't matter the age,it's just having that pain and
(36:05):
going hey, I want to dosomething about it.
Speaker 1 (36:09):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, we agree age doesn't matter.
Right Sarge.
Some of the some mornings youshow up at Markman Weekendend P1
and there's everything fromteenagers Well, maybe not
teenagers, but you know20-somethings.
Speaker 4 (36:23):
Yeah, late teens yeah .
Speaker 1 (36:24):
Right to 70s.
Yeah, we agree.
We agree, Mark, do you have a?
I'm presuming you do, but theUnravel leadership, who is
around you, supporting you andhelping lead?
How is it set up?
Speaker 5 (36:40):
Who is around you, supporting you and helping lead?
How is it set up?
Yeah, well, unravel is a 501c3,of course, but we have an
incredible national leadershipteam.
I mean, these guys are justunbelievable.
The amount of commitment andenergy and passion that they put
into it is unbelievable.
You know, frankly, they're theones that really make the
(37:01):
biggest difference, you know, inwhat we're doing at Unravel.
So we have a nationalleadership team.
Okay, you know, we have somestaff.
We have staff as well, we havean executive director and we
have some, you know, operationalstaff as well to support that
effort.
But our national leadershipteam are the guys that are
really making the big differenceand really providing the fuel
and horsepower to continue tomove this thing down the road.
Speaker 1 (37:22):
Got it.
How many active groups do youhave going on right now?
Speaker 5 (37:26):
Yeah, I'm glad you asked that.
So let me first say we haveUnravel.
The way we look at impact is wehave multiple paths.
So impact one is we havesomething called Unravel Go.
That's a six-session, if youwill, individual self-paced
content.
It's not a group, it's anon-ramp.
So we talked about earlier whowill get involved in Unravel.
(37:49):
Well, there's a lot of men outthere that go.
Well, I don't know if I want tomake a year-long commitment yet
.
So we have Unravel Go.
That's a very easy six-week,self-paced.
We've had gosh.
I don't know the latest numbers, but hundreds of men sign up
for Unravel Go.
Then we have Unravel Labs.
That's paid curriculum.
(38:11):
Unravel Go is free.
That's paid content, same.
Each one is six sessions.
So it was like UnravelExcellence, unravel Leadership,
and that's all online, againself-paced.
Another on-ramp, easy.
Oh, unravel Go was free.
I liked that.
I got a lot of that.
Oh, let's do Unravel Lab.
That's kind of the next levelof commitment that I can make.
Then Unravel One is step number,the next step, and that's the
(38:35):
12-month.
Once a month, three hours ishow long we meet, and then
there's the work outside of thatthat occurs.
There's a book a month, there'spreparation time, there's some
other things that we do in Ravelthat take preparation time as
well and we've had at this pointover I think it's I think over
(38:57):
150 men have are either in orhave completely gone through
Unravel 1.
Okay.
Then we have Unravel 2.
That's a six month for guysthat have done Unravel 1.
That's a six month environmentwhere we just focus on
leadership.
Then finally, we have Unravel 3.
That's an environment that wewant to be long-term and that's
(39:17):
something we launched not thatlong ago.
So we've done the alpha groups,the beta groups, and now it's
officially a part of our programand that is, think the inklings
.
I don't know if you're familiarwith CS Lewis, jerry Artoken.
They had a group at Oxford.
They met weekly.
It was called the inklings.
So think inklings, but in thisenvironment.
So men show up inklings.
(39:41):
But in this environment.
So men show up, they have theskills.
It's an ongoing, once a monthgroup.
Hopefully they meet for therest of their life, but
obviously they don't have to.
They come and go as they wantto and they come and they show
up prepared to talk aboutdifficult topics, because
there's not many spaces to dothat anymore, and whatever's
important to them, I mean themost controversial topic they
can bring up and they can knowthat every man in that room is
(40:01):
going to be able to have healthydialogue around it.
Even if they don't agree whichthey won't agree, of course they
can have good discussion aroundit.
So it fosters and continues tocreate that fuel for growth.
Just a quick history 2016 iswhen we launched the first alpha
group in Unravel, where wetested it.
(40:24):
It went well.
Then we started launching somebeta groups and then we just
formed the 501c3 in 2022.
Okay, officially that waslaunched in 2022.
Early 2022 is when the 501c3was formed.
Our goal I'm being transparent,I'm always like man, it's kind
of embarrassing to say because,like, really, but it's to reach
(40:46):
a million men in 10 years.
That's our goal to touch amillion men in 10 years through
what we're doing at Unravel.
And I say that and I alwaysoffer that comment because I
recognize it sounds impossible.
You know, offer that comment tous because I recognize it
sounds impossible.
You know, and I know, I'mcrystal clear that we cannot do
that, apart from God doing whatneeds to be done to make that
(41:07):
happen.
We just want to do our part andso we're showing up, you know,
doing the best we can, knowingthat we're certainly not doing
it perfectly, but that's whatwe're trying to do.
Speaker 1 (41:17):
Well, I love it.
I was with a dear friend thisweekend at his daughter's
wedding and we were lamenting.
We're both serving in aministry.
He's a regional leader for aministry that I help out in with
leadership a couple weekends ayear and he was talking about
the overall ministry goal ofreaching 100,000 men by this
(41:38):
time.
And I could have this numberwrong, but let's just say that
people who have signed up forthis, they're up to about 15,000
.
These are people who haveactually attended a weekend and
continue in some way.
Long story short, we bothagreed without even hesitating,
just kind of smiled at eachother, that the pebble in the
(41:59):
pond for 15,000 men.
You're way over a hundredthousand already.
Oh, already Right, yeah Justjust the Holy Spirit at work.
Can we agree, the three of us,that God is so much bigger than
our calculators?
Speaker 5 (42:14):
right.
Speaker 1 (42:15):
This and I love your goal.
I love audacious, monstrouslybig goals.
I don't think you should beembarrassed of the goal at all,
because it says to me that we'rea kindred spirit, because you
believe in a really big God.
Speaker 5 (42:31):
I think to me, the more you understand like, the
more context you have of what'srealistic, then you have a much
greater appreciation for whatGod accomplishes, right?
So for me to think thatreaching a million men in 10
years, oh yeah, that's realistic.
(42:52):
Of course, that's a goal.
We got a good goal.
It's realistic.
I feel like when those thingshappen that are so incredibly
big that it's easy to miss, youknow what God accomplished, so
we're ahead of goal at thispoint, and it's really easy to
be ahead of goal in the firstcouple of years because the
numbers just are small, right.
Speaker 1 (43:13):
Everything's bigger than zero.
Speaker 5 (43:15):
I know, yeah, yeah, so we're way ahead of goal at
this point.
Now ask me in two or threeyears where we're at, because
the numbers start getting a lotbigger to meet.
To stay on point for goal atthat point.
Speaker 1 (43:25):
We get it.
We get it, Sarge.
Any more questions for Mark.
We're coming up on, I think, agood timeframe to pivot if we
want to.
Speaker 4 (43:34):
I mean I don't.
I mean I would love to justknow quickly, mark, like a
little bit more about you, yourheart, your story.
You know you mentioned you'vebeen involved in other groups
coming up and just tell us alittle bit more about your
journey of faith.
Speaker 5 (43:53):
Yeah, I love talking about that.
I think about my journey offaith.
I'm 62 now, I just turned 62last month and I think about it
like in three phases.
Phase one is that phase for mewhere my salvation is secure.
And for me I became a Christianat nine and not a lot changed
(44:14):
in that until I finishedgraduate school.
So let's say, nine throughgraduate school it was salvation
is secure.
That was kind of phase one.
I don't, I wouldn't, you know,certainly not nine and 10, but
you know, in high school andcollege and graduate school I
wouldn't characterize as a lotof what we would think of the
three of us is growth.
It's phase two for me.
(44:35):
I think I would probably usethe word community.
I think that's the first time.
When I finished graduate schooland got involved in this church
in Houston a wonderful church Ireally became exposed to the
first time that you could be ina community of men and that this
could be like a really regularpart of your life and begin to
(44:57):
you know, not infiltrate butbegin to impact, you know, all
aspects of your life and thatyou could begin to kind of do
this with other men.
So that was that phase twowhich occurred, I would say,
through.
You know that, let's see, thatwas 85, 85, 86.
And then I'd say the next phaseoccurs when we moved to Atlanta
(45:20):
, my wife and I and then ourchildren, when we raised there
in Atlanta and I think that wasthe late 80s maybe, when we were
in Atlanta and when weultimately were part of starting
this church in Atlanta, us andseveral hundred other people
North Point Community Church.
Speaker 1 (45:36):
Is that Mr Stanley's church?
Speaker 5 (45:38):
Yeah, andy Stanley, yeah, what I began to there.
Moving to phase three, whichwas what I'll call the service
phase, I began to realize, wow,man, there's so many areas to
serve and begin to really, youknow, leverage the gifts I had
and was so fortunate to beinvolved in there from the
(45:58):
beginning, because it gave me anopportunity to be involved in
so many launching and being apart of so many environments at
North Point that I really beganto see that this service piece
is huge for your personal growth.
Because you guys know as wellas I do, when you're serving in
these faith arenas and outsideof faith arenas, you experience
(46:20):
more growth, or at least as muchgrowth as the people you're
serving.
In these faith arenas andoutside of faith arenas, you
experience more growth, or atleast as much growth as the
people you're serving.
It's not like, oh, I'll do thisthing for them and they're
getting all.
No, you're getting just as muchas they are.
And I think that service phasereally kind of, I guess, created
for me a deeper understandingof what it really means to make
(46:41):
a difference in other people'slives.
And so we ended up and then Ithink I've shared with you guys
recall that we were thenbi-coastal, you know, for the
last 14 or so years, miami andMarina Del Rey.
We were part of starting achurch in North Hollywood
probably I don't know would,probably, I don't know eight,
(47:03):
nine years ago maybe.
And so each step along thatjourney is reminding me of how
big God is, how small I am andhow close we are and how God
touches.
God wants me to do my part.
I think that's the part where Isit here today and I go.
You know what?
(47:23):
God's always going to do hispart.
He just wants me to show up anddo my part, and I'm on a
journey of continuing todiscover what that looks like,
you know, on a daily basis.
Speaker 4 (47:35):
Yeah, appreciate that , man.
You've had some experiences forsure.
My goodness, that's excitingwork and it's hard work.
Yes, you know tilling that soiland you know setting that
foundation to.
You know, launch thoseministries is tough, it's tough
(47:57):
stuff.
Speaker 5 (47:59):
And you guys know it's so gratifying yeah, it's so
gratifying, robert.
Doing things that are yourgiftedness is married with a
need, it's so gratifying.
My career, vocationally, hasbeen in investment banking and
that's what my business has beenaround.
I've done some real estatestuff and some other businesses,
but investment banking has beenmy core business over the years
(48:21):
and so that's given me,obviously, the skills I've
developed in that that I've beenable to use in these areas
outside of that, and it's beenvery gratifying, you know, to
see God using that to make adifference.
I think that's the part that'shumbling and gratifying every
(48:42):
day.
Speaker 4 (48:43):
How did you find that environment in investment
banking as far as living a fullyintegrated, faith-filled life?
What was that environment likefor you coming up in investment
banking?
Speaker 5 (49:02):
what was that environment like for you?
You know, coming up ininvestment banking yeah, for me
there's.
Investment banking means somany different things to
different, yes, and there's alsodifferent segments of it.
So for me, what you read aboutin the Wall Street Journal was
not really the investmentbanking piece that I was
involved in.
That's the large transactionstuff.
Mine was what we call themiddle market, so think of deals
(49:22):
that are sub $200 million intransaction value.
That's deals that we focused inon.
So it was more M&A, mergers andacquisitions sort of stuff.
So what that means, and thereason that's important for
context, is most of the people Ideal with, and this was by
choice.
This is why I worked in asegment.
I really enjoy working withbusiness owners who have built
something that's reallyenjoyable to me.
(49:45):
That's who I enjoy connectingwith.
So my life, my vocationalcareer, has been spent
connecting with business ownerswho have built something.
So what it's done is it's givenme a very rich platform.
One is it's given me a veryrich platform not always, of
course, but opportunities tomake a difference in men's lives
(50:07):
in that regard.
Because why it's a pivotallife-changing moment for them
when they're going through atransaction to acquire or sell
or merge and they startexploring a lot of things in
their life and I'm the closestadvisor they have at that point
in time, and so I'm a personthat gets asked a lot of
questions.
So it's pretty cool.
It's been pretty cool.
(50:28):
My focus now is on unravel forthe most part, but it's it's
really been very cool.
That's awesome, really.
Speaker 4 (50:33):
That's awesome, great stuff.
That's good stuff, very greatstuff.
That's good stuff, very cool.
Speaker 1 (50:40):
So I have an idea Mark.
Yeah, I have an idea to close,Mr Mark, you have a chance here.
You have an open forum fortelling in a minute or so,
telling anyone who's listeningabout your passion, not only for
Unravel, but the world as youknow it, and it be that Mark's
world in your lens or the biggerworld at large.
(51:01):
This is your free time to speakabout whatever you'd like that
you feel strongly about.
Speaker 5 (51:08):
Yeah, I could talk for hours, so I'm glad you put a
limit on that.
That's why I did that.
I'm sure you've experiencedthat before, right?
Hey, I did mean 30 minutes more.
You know, if I think about whatI want to leave men with today,
there's mean 30 minutes more.
You know, if I think about,like, what would I want to leave
men with today?
There's so many different things, but I think if I could think
about leaving your listenerstoday with one thing, it would
(51:29):
be you can have almost anythingyou want, but you can have
everything you want, and life isabout tradeoff choices that you
have to make on a daily basis.
You're always going to have tocheat something, Right?
So you have to decideintentionally what you're going
to be cheating in those areasthat we discussed not faith, of
course, that's the wrapping, butwhat you're going to cheat and
cheat I mean loosely, not with anegative connotation and when
(51:55):
you begin to realize that, youstart to go okay, I've got to
make choices in my life.
So if that's the case, if Iwant to grow in this area, what
am I going to have to do toaccomplish that?
Maybe you have to work a littleharder for a season of life
than maybe you have in the past.
Maybe you're going to have togo to counseling.
Maybe you're going to have tospend more time with your family
the list is endless of whatthose things are.
(52:24):
You're at today.
Within that context oftrade-off choices you have to
make, you can be so much morebecause you're fearfully and
wonderfully made and that's whatGod wants for you.
He wants you to be more thanyou are today and he loves you
the way you are, but he wants somuch more for you and you can
have that.
And at Unravel Groups and theenvironments you guys have,
that's what we're about istrying to help you continue that
journey and embrace thatjourney.
Speaker 1 (52:45):
Thank you, that's awesome.
We appreciate that and we'rehonored to have Mark Jordan, the
founder of Unravel Groups, withus today.
Mark, thank you so much.
Thank you, guys.
We put a way in the show notesthat folks can contact you
directly into Unravel groups andmake the connection with you
and talk to you more about thedetails.
(53:05):
Just a little, the nuggets thatyou planted today and the seed
you planted.
Who knows what God might dowith those, with somebody
listening.
As Sarge said on minute numberone, we're hoping to reach one
listener, one with a messagethat draws them one inch closer
to our God.
There you go.
Speaker 5 (53:20):
That's it, man.
Yeah, that's all we can ask forlistener one with a message
that draws them one inch closerto our God.
Speaker 1 (53:22):
There you go.
Speaker 5 (53:23):
That's it, man.
Yeah, that's all we can ask for.
That's all we can ask for, amen.
I've enjoyed it.
Thanks for hanging out, thanksfor having me on Good man,
thanks for coming.
Speaker 4 (53:32):
Mark, we were made for more, so I would just
encourage our listeners to don'tjust be you.
Be you in Christ you don't justbe you.
Speaker 3 (53:43):
Be you in Christ.
You were made for more Amen,peace.
It's time to get intentionalFaith, family, friends, fitness
and finances.
Where do I have room to grow,improve, learn.
Where am I stuck?
How about you?
I'll tell you what Unravelsounds like a great opportunity
(54:08):
to open our eyes to areas weneed to improve in and to
receive the community and toolsto make it happen.
Praise God.
Don't let this opportunity slipinto the noise of your day.
Stop ask God if this is for you.
Praise God.
Don't let this opportunity slipinto the noise of your day.
Stop Ask God if this is for youand if he gives you peace about
(54:31):
it.
Go check them out atwwwunrivalgroupscom.
Lord, please continue to usethis podcast to impact the lives
of all who listen.
I ask that you would bring hopeand healing to each and every
one of them.
Meet them right where they areand reveal yourself to them like
only you can do, in Jesus' nameamen.
Speaker 2 (54:50):
If you enjoyed today's episode, please share it
and invite others to theFoxhole.
You can find us wherever youdownload your favorite podcasts.
Be sure to subscribe so youknow when new episodes drop, and
please rate us and commentthere too, as it'll help us get
found by others who couldbenefit.
Find, follow and like us onyour go-to social media networks
by searching Foxhole Symphonyor visit foxholesymphonycom to
(55:11):
make it super easy to find us.
Drop us a line with feedback,questions, topic requests.
Who knows, maybe you'll be aguest on a future episode.
In the meantime, prepare tomove, embrace discomfort and
just be you.
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