May 17, 2024 • 50 mins
This week Antowan and I come together in a candid conversation, we tackle the pressing issue of our nation's division and the discomfort surrounding the name of Jesus Christ in today's culture. We feel the urgency to rekindle the inclusive and compassionate core of Christ's teachings, a topic that resonates deeply with those who yearn for unity amidst the fray. Our heartfelt discourse delves into the need for a collective embrace of these values, transcending political lines and societal boundaries.
This episode is not just a discussion; it's an introspective journey through personal failings, the church's stumbling blocks, and the intertwining of faith and politics. We share our vulnerabilities as we grapple with the complexities of scriptural interpretation and the guidance of spiritual leaders. With the rise of Christian nationalism and the historical schisms within the church, we highlight the essential call for love and equality as cornerstones of the Bible's message—principles that must guide us in navigating the murky waters of ideological distortions.
Our journey culminates in exploring discrimination and the profound impact of Martin Luther King Jr.'s legacy, which compels us to confront the dark corners of inequality with the light of understanding and mutual respect. We urge our listeners to take personal responsibility in educating themselves about governance and societal coexistence, aiming for a world where love is the central message that connects us all. Join us in reflecting on the power of unity as we strive to live authentically in our faith, fostering a society where hearts are changed and lives are rescued by the simple, yet revolutionary act of love.
Thanks for listening. Please check out our website at www.forsauk.com to hear great conversations on topics that need to be talked about. In these times of intense polarization we all need to find time to expand our Frame of Reference.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
let's have it, ladies and gentlemen, welcome, welcome
, welcome, welcome, welcome,welcome.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
I'm raul abrash and I'm Antoine Holman Sr and we are
Frame of Reference comingtogether.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
We have to do that like as a song Frame of
Reference coming together,something, right, can we work on
that?
Maybe a four part harmonytheme's gonna come in soon,
right?
Okay, yeah, I'll get mydaughter to come in and get
Ramona and we'll do four partharmony there.
Man, it'll be like it'll behappening.
So, anyways, folks, welcome.
Thanks for joining us again.
(00:49):
Uh, those of you that are outthere listening, you know that
uh, my brother antoine and I uhwe're trying to be straight
shooters about a lot of theissues that are are confronting
our nation and, uh, trying tocome at it from a unified
perspective.
This is not.
We are not Democrat heavy.
We are not Republican heavy atleast I hope so.
(01:10):
We are ideal, happy.
We are Church of Jesus Christ,happy and slanted.
That's what we're striving tobe, folks.
So if that name makes youuncomfortable right now, I just
want to encourage you.
One of the things I havenoticed about the name of Jesus
Christ over my lifetime and I'malmost 64, so I'm no spring
(01:33):
chicken but one of the thingsthat I have noticed is that you
can talk about Buddha, you cantalk about Muhammad.
About Muhammad, you can talkabout really pretty much
Confucius, any of the othermajor figureheads of what we
would call you know religions.
You know that have thosetraditional, you know
(01:53):
figureheads that they arefollowing Jesus Christ makes
people uncomfortable and I'vealways thought that that's
really interesting.
Some of that, I believe, isbecause Christians in general
have done a lousy job, frankly,of displaying who Jesus is,
because Jesus was not the onethat well you know you need to
(02:14):
be saved and you need to be theSon of God.
You know they have that sort ofrighteousness that just makes
people uncomfortable, that senseof you know we are different,
that sort of righteousness thatjust makes people uncomfortable,
that sense of you know we aredifferent.
No, we're not.
You know we're really not.
We're sinners.
We struggle with the samethings everyone struggles with,
(02:39):
and to adopt that philosophy isto adopt and forget about the
log in our eye and the speck ofdust in others.
We are called to be the peoplethat are at the well, waiting
for the woman that's beenmarried seven times, and talk
with them about what else isthere in life.
We're there for the MaryMagdalene's.
We're supposed to be there forthe tax collectors and all of
those folks that need to hearwho Jesus really is.
(03:02):
So that's who we are.
So if you can get behind that,if you're willing to hopefully
listen to where we're comingfrom, that'd be fantastic.
But my brother, antoine, acrossthe screen from me, he had this
idea which is here we go, folksto talk about, probably for the
(03:23):
next couple episodes, the stateof our nation.
So we're doing a state of ourunion and in next couple of
episodes, the state of ournation.
So we're doing a state of ourunion and in my mind it's a
state of our disunion addressand hopefully we're going to
provoke some conversation.
Hopefully we're going toprovoke some condemnation,
honestly.
Hopefully we're going topromote some consternation I'm
(03:43):
doing these C words you likethat, antoine, so you know and
hopefully some confirmation Wow,and Lord's bringing those words
to me, that's not me Of what isgoing on.
How did we get to this pointwhere we are so, so incredibly
(04:06):
polarized, so incrediblyantagonized, so incredibly?
You know, just fueled.
I mean literally fueled.
It's like people have beenpouring gasoline on the fires
that have been in our hearts,the discontent that's been in
people's hearts in general inthis country for years.
(04:27):
We're just pouring fuel on it.
We're just saying get burned,baby burn, and at what cost.
You know, scorched earthdoesn't work well for anybody,
you know.
Try having a marriage with thekind of you know, well, my wife
does it Well, my husband doesthis Well, my husband does this
Well, you're just terrible.
(04:48):
You B-I-T-C-H Well, youB-A-S-T-A-R.
Don't help anything.
Try doing that.
Try doing that in a marriagefor so long.
If you don't care about themarriage, try it, see what
happens.
But we supposedly, on both bothsides of this equation care
about our nation.
We care about people.
When there's a problem in acountry like Haiti gets wiped
(05:11):
out, we are people that stand upand go help those folks.
That's who we are.
So when you want to talk aboutmake America great again, let's
talk about that.
Let's talk about that presencethat we have had for years and
years and years.
Let's not talk about the wall.
Let's not talk about thatpresence that we have had for
years and years and years.
Let's not talk about the wall.
Let's not talk about, you know,having daca.
Let's not talk about thosethings that just inherently,
(05:32):
have been used so often topolarize us.
Let's talk about what unifiesus.
Let's talk and that's whatwe're hopefully going to get at
right, I, I, I'm just talking,I'm blah, blah blah.
I'm sorry, antoine, you havesomething to say do your thing
so, uh, I had to do my thingright, do your thing yeah, mr,
(05:52):
mr sidewalk prophet, that's me,mr soapbox, I'm, I'm, uh, mr
clean, you know, arm and hammer,that's that's what I be.
So, uh, no, I, I don't.
I'm just trying to shareperspective and I hope it
resonates with some people.
I don't.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
Absolutely, and and and again.
It's like, uh, talking from theheart is, uh, you know, talking
from the heart is what isneeded right now.
Uh, especially when it's anopen heart.
You know it's a, it's a yes,I'm willing to tell the truth
but at at the same time, I'mwilling to receive the
correction on my end.
You know what I mean and that'swhere I think what we're all
(06:29):
falling short a little bit.
You know, it's like, uh, I can,like you said earlier, we can
point out the speck in thebrother's eye, but not look at
the plank in our own.
I could tell you about you, butwhat about me?
And that's where we are.
And uh, you know, but again, um,going back to some of our first
, very first episodes, you knowwe're talking about what's wrong
(06:50):
with the country and why isthese things happening.
Of course you know I said that,hey, I blame the church.
You know I blame the church andI hate to use the word blame,
but you know is the church issupposed to be the beacon of
light, the beacon of hope, thebeacon of unity and compassion
and empathy.
But you know, it has becomemore of a politicized entity now
(07:15):
.
You know, of course, like we'retalking about.
You know what's going on in theworld, in this country.
It's just a spirit, it's just ame, my, I spirit is a spirit of
division, is a spirit of chaosand dysfunction, is a spirit of
just distraction, is a spirit ofprojection.
(07:37):
There's a lot of you know whatI mean.
There's a lot of fingerpointing.
There's a lot of my truth.
Is the truth going on?
And of course, our Bible sayshey, you know, let God be true
and every man a liar, becauseevery issue pertaining to life
is in the Bible.
But lo and behold, we know thisthat a lot of people don't read
(07:58):
the Bible.
Even people that go to churchdon't read the Bible.
They get their infilling fromthe past on Sundays, and then
that's that.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
Well, we pick and choose, right, we pick and
choose the passages that fit ouragenda.
You know there's a lot of stuffthat gets pulled out that,
honestly, a lot of it is OldTestament, which is problematic
in and of itself because, youknow, old Testament is only
really revealing who is to comein New Testament.
So if you are going to take thatas the biblical truth and not
(08:27):
recognize what Jesus did tofulfill that truth but also to
counter it with the new gospel,the new message of God.
You're missing a fundamentalpoint that we, as Christians,
need to be careful of.
We're sliding down a reallyslippery slope at that point and
I think about like I'msuggesting this may be one of
(08:49):
our focuses, because this isprobably a several message
podcast, trying to keep it downto bite-sized pieces but make
America great again.
Okay, let's just take thatapart for a little bit.
When I hear Christiansconsistently entrenching
(09:12):
themselves in that andentrenching themselves in the
primary issues that have beenassociated with it and that are
proudly displayed as what it'sall about.
And you think about the wall,fighting crime, you know getting
.
You know trying to do something, to do something to make us,
you know, preeminent in theworld again.
(09:33):
You know.
You know figureheads that saythings like if Russia wouldn't
try this, if I was in office, orNorth Korea wouldn't try this,
if I was, I would take care ofthis in office.
Or North Korea wouldn't trythis.
If I was, I would take care ofthis.
The strong man you knowphilosophy and the extrinsics of
the whole argument.
When you think about that, whereare the Christians that are
(09:56):
saying make Jesus great again,make Jesus integral again?
We complain about prayer notbeing part of schools, but if we
do our job as Christians, ourkids are going to want to pray
in school, you know, and whetheror not they can publicly get
around and kumbaya together, youknow they will be praying in
(10:17):
school.
If we do it right with our kids, they're going to go to church,
they're going to go to school,they're going to go everywhere
in their life and we're going tohopefully teach them that when
you encounter someone thatreally ticks you off or is just
a complete jerk, that you willpray, that you'll pray for them
or you'll pray for the fortitudeto stand up against them.
(10:37):
You know, with social media,you know the things that are
happening there, even in oursmall community, the kids that
are killing themselves becausethey've been bullied so much.
Where is the church?
We're looking to, you know,school system to solve things
that the church can solve and,frankly, I think the church has
the only set of tools that willwork.
(10:58):
So where are we?
Where are we and I'm speakingto myself as much, because I
could just as easily go to aschool board meeting.
In fact, I've been feelingcalled to do that and I haven't.
So I'm being disobedient andnot doing it.
But the reality is church, getit together, get it together.
(11:19):
Your allegiance is not toDonald Trump, it's not to Joe
Biden, it is not to those people.
Your allegiance is to JesusChrist, and he sets a completely
different example than eitherone of them.
They got pieces of it, perhaps,but you're putting people in an
(11:41):
equation, in a hierarchy thatthey cannot be in.
People in an equation in ahierarchy that they cannot be in
it, doesn't you know we don'ttalk about.
You know, even those of us talkabout church, family, god,
family and then country.
Even those of us that talkabout you know well, god places
authorities in our life andwe're supposed to subject to
them.
You know that whole phrasemeans a whole different thing.
(12:04):
You know that that whole phrasemeans a whole different thing.
Than he came into the world,god gave his only begotten son
so that people would be able tobe brought to him.
So how is, how is donald trump,how is joe biden more important
than that?
And if this is making you upsetas a Christian, praise God,
(12:25):
because that's the Holy Spiritworking in you going.
I'm not that way, okay great.
Why do you feel you're not thatway?
Let's talk.
Let's talk.
I'll tell you how I'm failing.
I know I am every single day,probably every moment.
My wife will tell you, my kidswill tell you how I fail, but I
know who I believe failing.
I know I am every single day,probably every moment.
(12:46):
My wife will tell you.
My kids will tell you how Ifail, but I know who I believe
in and I know when I, when Ihave those moments where I'm
soft enough to say God, I amscrewing up royally.
Please help me when I'm weak.
You're strong.
Please be strong for me rightnow, please.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
Please.
Yeah, just going back to theoriginal point I was going to
make you know, of course, um,but I was saying that the you
know, it's like I hate using theword blame the church, but at
the same time it's like this iswhere a lot, a huge source of
everything in our community, issupposed to come from.
You know, of course, uh, butthe bible does tell us plainly
(13:24):
in that day, even God's electwill be deceived.
And one of my favorite books,or one of my favorite chapters
in the Bible is John, chaptereight.
And this is where, right afterJesus forgives the adulterous
woman, you know, they come tohim who are you to forgive, and
this and that?
And the other thing is like,well, he's telling them who he
(13:44):
is, but they refuse to him.
Who are you to forgive, andthis and that and the other?
Then it's like, well, he'stelling them who he is, but they
refuse to believe him.
And he's like, if y'all would,if they're like who is your
father?
And he's like I am he.
And then it's like, well, weare children of abraham.
And he's like, if y'all werechildren of abraham, y'all know
me and y'all know my father.
And he's like y'all, y'all areyour father's, the father of
lies, the devil, and so,basically, in even in present
(14:07):
time, uh, just, what's happeningin the church today, you know
again, I just, we just try toimplore people to read their
bible, you know, and if youdon't have an understanding,
that's where you need to reachout to a pastor or a church
leader and say, hey, sit with me, help me understand this, break
this thing down for me, becauseI want to do my best to be
(14:28):
obedient.
You know, of course, what didJesus say?
He's like if my word abides inyou, you are my disciple, indeed
, meaning, if my word is in you,if you're committed to me, if
you are abiding in me and myword is abiding in you, you are
my disciples indeed, and youshall know the truth, and the
truth shall set you free.
(14:48):
And of course, you know againwhat is that truth?
It's the living word and, ofcourse, the word, the Bible, is
coming to life in present day,all these things that we're
seeing.
You know, right now, the churchis standing before God's altar.
I had this picture of just achurch standing before God's
(15:09):
altar about presenting strangefruits.
Remember what happened toAaron's first two sons?
They went and burnt incense andit was a strange fire before
the Lord, and that's whathappened and that's what's
happening now.
We're mixing politics and churchand that's not how it's
supposed to be.
(15:29):
You know, we got differentsects of churches actually
forming militias and things likethat, and then it's like we're
taking the word and we'reperverting the word, like you
said earlier.
You know we're taking cherrypicking scripture to fit what
we're trying to do, but thething is God says he will not,
(15:54):
he is not going to justify yournonsense meaning.
Of course we tend to say OK,we're going to be obedient to
our version of what I readversus sometimes.
The Bible is very plain Loveyour brother.
This commandment I leave youwith.
(16:17):
Love one another.
You know, and we can't beselective in this.
You know, and we can't beselective in this.
And this is where I believethat when we were talking about,
you know, the issues in thecountry, it starts in church
Because, again, going back towhen the Southern Baptists
(16:38):
separated from the NorthernBaptists, because the Southern
Baptists still didn't want togive up their slaves.
And you know, and it's like evennow, present day, it's like you
actually have sex of churchessaying we are white evangelicals
or now we have Christiannationalists and the underlying
problem with that is hate.
(16:59):
You know, of course you don'twant equality or equity for all
people.
You want to be exalted.
You feel like you're losingpart of the country.
We're all minorities here now.
We all are.
I would say we're coming to aspace where this thing is almost
evenly yoked, so to speak, whenit comes to a race standpoint.
(17:20):
But it is again the love peoplepiece is what's missing, and
but also the nullifying of God'sword.
You know, of course you take,you take.
You know I gave this analogybefore you take an apple.
Apple a day is good for you,right?
Apple a day, keep the doctoraway.
But yeah, if you add carameland M&Ms and all this other kind
(17:42):
of stuff to the apple, itbecomes deadly caramel and M&Ms
and all this other kind of stuff.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
To the apple it becomes deadly.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
How about insects?
Speaker 2 (17:51):
Let's add worms to it .
Okay, how about that?
Put that apple set Right.
You know, you keep sayingyou're having a problem with
blame and I keep thinking.
When you talk about that, Ithink about conviction.
I don't think it is, you know,and I think I understand the
resonating of that in theconviction that you have.
It's because it isn't.
You know, god doesn't do thatsort of thing.
(18:13):
He convicts us through his HolySpirit.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
Oh yeah, and that's the thing.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
To research his truth , to look closely and to stop
and pray.
Lord, this anger that's in me,you know, this strife, that's
not.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
And that's where, and that's why I was saying, like
you know, with that apple right,either you're nullifying the
word one way or the other.
Either you're adding to it oryou're not omitting, or you're
omitting from it.
And that's where it's like.
You know, again, a lot ofpeople will actually warfare
against God.
They'll go into spiritualwarfare.
God is trying to correct themand he's showing them their way,
(18:47):
but they'll be like, oh, that'snot of God.
And it's like, yes, it is Godtrying to correct you, but you
won't receive the correction.
And instead of accepting thetruth or just accepting that
correction, we double down onthe lie.
And then again, it's like theBible says, for whatsoever is in
a man's heart, so is he in hisbehavior.
You know, and of course, again,it's a heart issue.
(19:09):
We teach, hey, for whatever'sin your heart is between you and
God, just like, say, you and Isitting across the screen, I
would say, hey, whatever's inRaul's heart is between him and
God.
And what's in my heart isbetween me and God and of course
, and based on our relationships, is what's gonna come from us.
You know what I mean.
That's what's exhibited in theworld and of course, we are to
(19:31):
exhibit his likeness and image.
Right, we're predestined in hislikeness and image.
We are to replicate andduplicate his image throughout
the earth, but again it's likewhat we're seeing and God is
love, and so we're not seeinglove, but we're hearing
scriptures thrown all over theplace, but we're not seeing love
(19:51):
.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
Put your money where your mouth is.
Huh, put your money where yourmouth is baby.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
And the sad part is, you know this thing, the racial
divide, the biggest racialdivide, is in the church and
it's spilling over intoeverything else, where it
actually should be the exactopposite.
The church should be unified,you know, preaching the same
(20:23):
message, you know, and yet we'repreaching multiple different
things.
You know, and it's a scary time.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
I keep thinking of that scripture that I think I've
told you before.
That was on my wife's and mywedding invitation and not my
idea, hers.
Ok, let's make that clear.
And it's, I believe, 1 John 6,.
So in the epistles, and he saysBeloved, let us love one
another, for everyone that lovesis born of God and knows God,
(21:14):
or knows God and is born of God.
So that scripture to me hasalways been so compelling as a
lightning rod and a motivatorfor even the predestination
things we are predestined to beChristians, and Christians will
use that as see, I'm special.
Right, I was predestined, but Iput that together with.
God is not willing that anyshould perish, but that all
should have eternal life.
So to me, predestination isabout everyone is predestined to
(21:36):
be with God.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
And that's why he said, for God so loved the world
.
He didn't say God so lovedChristians, but God so loved
these different groups of people.
He said the world, that theworld might be saved, right.
So when you say whitenationalists.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
When you say you know Christian, you know
nationalists.
When you say white evangelicals, seriously, guys, christians
out there that are listening,that are part of those movements
, ask yourself what is whitedoing with the word evangelist?
I mean, for goodness sakes,jesus wasn't a white man.
Look at that part of the world,for God's sakes.
(22:10):
I mean you can say he's aCaucasian.
Iranians say they're Caucasians.
Iranians say that they're partof that whole mix because
they're not really black.
So right, I don't get it.
Why is that word, why is thatokay with anyone to have that
word blended with evangelist?
(22:32):
Evangelist means someone thatcarries the good news, doesn't
say and just carry it to thewhite people.
That's the white people, okay,you know, even Jesus.
Even Jesus comes and says to therabbis, to the Pharisees, to
the Sadducees he says thismessage is no longer for just
the Jewish people.
(22:52):
God so loved the world that hegave his only begotten son so
that any who believed in himwould not perish.
He meant when he talks to Paul,when the Holy Spirit, when
Jesus talks to Paul, he says,yeah, it's everybody now, and
even the apostles, the Jewishapostles, because they were all
Jews.
Right, what?
What are you talking about?
You know, that kind of reactionto the whole thing, that can't
(23:14):
possibly be.
We're the chosen people.
What is this white nationalismexcept we're the chosen people?
Come on.
Speaker 1 (23:24):
At this point.
This is going beyond scripture.
This is going beyond the pulpit.
At this point.
This is this is going beyondscripture.
This is going beyond the pulpitat this point.
It has now become a politicalsect.
You know, of course, a lot ofthese churches and these major,
major men of God or preachersare standing behind an entity
(23:45):
and allowing this entity to.
They say that this entity isJesus or he is the, and it's
like get out of here.
When this person has not chosenhe has not exhibited one fruit
of the spirit, not one and and,but.
The thing is, there are, theyare getting behind this, because
(24:06):
he makes it easier to projector to say their idea of how the,
how the country should be like.
You know, of course, you know,trump.
He pushes, you know, got rid ofRoe, he is actually pushing
(24:29):
this.
He says things that people,some people, want to say but
just can't say it.
You know, then, of course, nowyou got the people that are in
his corner, in his sect, so tospeak, are saying things like
DEI is death or DEI is this.
It's just they replace the Nword with DEI.
Anything that goes for theadvancement of color people, or
indigenous people, or Hispanic,latinx, whatever, or transsexual
(24:55):
, it's frowned upon.
Like that conservative society?
I believe it is, of course,these very groups of people.
They shun and they create lawsand try to marginalize, like,
say, black Lives Matter,whatever organization that's
trying to put a spotlight onsocial, racial, economic
(25:18):
injustices.
They are getting sued this,that and the other.
Like that one conservativesociety, the same thing that
they're fighting, uh, to stop.
They have been doing forcenturies Now.
Like that one group, they, theybasically have an office in the
Supreme court and their wholejob is to sue or sue everything
that is for the advancement,like there was a nonprofit.
(25:41):
They were just like hey, wewant to give a um, minor women
of color, uh, grants to go abouttrying to build businesses.
They sued and said that this isdiscriminant against white
people.
And these are the things thatare going on.
But these people are they saythey are christian people.
(26:02):
We want to, we want to upholdChristian values in the country.
When we're talking aboutChristian values, we're talking
about equity.
Equality because God said Iwill bring all nations to myself
, not just some, but all nationsto myself.
(26:23):
He said that.
He didn't say I'm just going tobring some.
But this is where, again, youjust cry in prayer.
I just cry because it's likeLord, what can we do to fix this
?
Or what can we do to makepeople understand?
Because you and I talked aboutthis before, regardless of what
(26:44):
side of the aisle you sit on,you know, uh, republican or
democrat, whatever, these arevery smart people.
They, they could actually benice people at heart.
But it's like what are?
What are you missing?
Or what am I missing that Makesyou think it's OK to take away
(27:08):
the rights of other people andwomen and to just say anything
you want to marginalize ordemonize another group.
If we don't agree with you, wehate you.
That's what we are right now.
If you don't agree with whatI'm saying, I hate you, and
that's not what it's supposed tobe.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
Right?
Well, isn't it Martin LutherKing?
I'm paraphrasing here when wetalk about discrimination, one
of the things that DEI wastrying to address was Martin
Luther King's saying ofinjustice against one individual
is injustice against all peopleis injustice against all people
.
And so when you, you know, wewant to quote Martin Luther King
(27:52):
you know I've seen a lot ofpoliticians want to you know
he's a central figure thatrepresents good things, honestly
good things, and a movementthat pushed us forward.
So everyone wants to alignthemselves with him by using the
same phrases of his over andover again.
But we forget things like youknow injustice, this is
(28:14):
injustice, and this wholediscrimination thing.
I'm sorry, I got to take alittle issue with that too.
Discrimination as a word, okay,it means that you're making a,
you're identifying thedifferences between things,
you're using a discriminatoryview to be able to determine how
(28:37):
things categorize in your life,but we turn it into a tool to
segregate.
We turn it when you hear peoplefighting against DEI and
fighting against whitediscrimination that is using it
as a tool to polarize.
And fundamentally, there isnothing I think inherently wrong
(29:01):
, morally wrong, with theprocess of discrimination.
What's wrong with it is theutilization of the word
discrimination and there's areal profound difference there
that when we can't understand,when we can't discriminate that
these people that are beingtreated in one way, that are
people of color, are treateddifferently than these people
(29:25):
that are white, if we can'tdiscriminate those differences
remember this is not just a youknow a thing about using it as a
tool.
It's using it as an opportunityto say, well, yeah, there, if I
look at those things veryclearly and objectively and
honestly and humbly, there are.
We are discriminating.
We're discriminating in a lotof ways.
(29:47):
We're discriminating in someways that benefit one side of
the equation and are a deficitto the other side of the
equation, and we ought to behonest about that.
That isn't a threat to youwhite people.
That is not a threat to you.
That's an opportunity to behonest, to look at the history
of this country.
I don't want to feel bad aboutAmerica.
(30:08):
I never had slaves, but that'spart of who we are.
We've got to embrace the factthat we were, that.
We are trying to work away fromthat.
And yet there are forces, thereare people, there are folks
with an agenda that are tryingto keep us there.
They're trying to keep it fromhappening.
(30:28):
They're trying to resist thefact that our calling again as
Christians is to do if we wantto say we're a Judeo-Christian
country, which that's anotherwhole topic.
Because look at the four, youknow founding fathers and women
of this country.
Some of them were born againfiery, some of them were
marjorie, lukewarm, and some ofthem just no, no, no, no, no, no
(30:52):
, no, that's not me, that's notme, but I do believe in this
righteous liberty, all thethings that we need to jettison
from King George in that worldand have a better society here.
Anyway, I get off the point.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
Well, when we talk about that discriminant word,
you're right and it's like youknow, we like to be able to
(31:26):
understand the differences inand, of course, but when we use
that word, discriminant isbasically taking away from you
know, whether you're taking awaya right, you're taking away a
voice you want.
Believe I've shared with thisbefore.
You know, it's like, you know,it's just this position of this,
almost like this position ofpower Most white men take, where
it's like, if I disagree withyou, you is just there's like
this puffed upness, you know,and it's like, hey, no, I'm just
disagreeing.
(31:46):
You know, it's like, and it'slike, automatically there's this
hierarchy or this standard,like you are here and I am here,
and it's like, no, we bothright here, we're supposed to be
, you know, and that's where,when we like, when you are
talking like that with differentpeople, and it's like you know
you just watch this.
No, just again, this is just mebeing a black man you just the
(32:10):
stance a person will take whenthey come in front of you and
the wording you know.
Of course, I don't think peopleare stupid, I think people are
very smart.
So I think I believe that whenwords are chosen, they are very
carefully chosen.
And so it's like when you'rehaving conversations and it's
(32:32):
like, right away is there's thisstance, you know.
But again it's like we're in aspace now where, hey, we want to
be heard, we want to beunderstood, and yet people,
there's a people saying, youknow what, stay in your place,
and and we're not there anymore.
But we got to come to a spacewhere it's like, hey, I'm
(32:52):
willing to listen to you.
I need you to be willing tolisten to me.
And we have to come, we have towork this thing out, we have to
learn how to live life and dolife together.
And the Bible tells us, youknow, in Romans 12, one of my
favorite quick, another one ofmy favorite quick chapters.
(33:14):
But it says for as much as isup to you, live peaceably with
all men.
That means, for much as you areresponsible for, try to live
peaceably.
So that means you'reresponsible for doing research
to know what is right or wrong,what is the truth and what is a
lie.
And it's like you know we'retalking about this before.
I say for as much as it is up toyou, go and learn the basic
(33:36):
functions of government, so when, and the offices therein.
So when someone comes to youand say, hey, the reason we
can't do this is because of this, you will know in your own mind
, in your own heart, that that'snot accurate, because this is
how the law of the land works.
For as much as it is up to you,just, hey, take the time to
(33:57):
just understand another person'splight.
We've talked about this beforeUnderstanding another person's
plight, understand their hurt,their struggle, their mindset,
their perception of things, andeven going as deep to understand
why they feel the way they do.
And it's just for as much asit's up to us, we have to just
(34:20):
be willing to be patient withother people and take the time
and listen and learn their wayand understand their way.
And now, granted, there aresome ways people are just not
willing to reason at all, youknow.
They're just not willing toreason, like we see MAGA.
You know there's no reasoningwith that.
You know there's no reasoning.
Speaker 2 (34:43):
Right.
Speaker 1 (34:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
So you come down to.
Well, I'm going to referencethis, so I open the door because
we're already in almost well,we're over a half hour talking,
so this is why that's a bitmultiple part thing, right, but
one of the things I'm going totry to reference over the next
few pop uh podcasts and I'mputting a shameless plug in for
the book.
But there's a man by the nameof tim alberta who has written a
(35:06):
book called for the kingdom,the power and the the Glory.
So that title may put somepeople off but it's a reference
to the Our Father, which mostfolks know, that prayer, anyways
, he is the son of a whiteevangelical preacher that was a
(35:27):
very successful businessman andearly on in his middle age, I
think in the 30s.
Yeah, there you go.
That's the book.
Tilt it a little bit.
It's in the light.
There you go the Kingdom, thePower and the Glory.
American Evangelos in a periodof what is evangelism In an age
of extremism?
Okay, american Evangelos in anage of extremism.
(35:47):
Okay, american evangelicals andevangelicals in an age of
extremism.
Anyway, so he's the son of aman who successful businessman
from what I can read into it,making good money, being a good
provider, and he all of a suddenhas this revelation that I need
to be a preacher, I need to dothis, I need to go get retooled
so I can do that.
Does that process?
(36:08):
His wife supports it, you know,I'm not sure.
He'll probably live off savingsfor a while or he's working at
Walmart, who knows.
But he ends up getting hisdivinity degree, goes to
Michigan so transports everybody, I believe, from Pennsylvania
and they go out to Michigan nearDetroit, if I remember.
But it's like a suburb ofDetroit, a pretty affluent area.
(36:32):
So it starts a small church orcomes to a church, is relatively
small and built it to a reallybig church.
I mean that was quite megachurch size.
But in our area, you know, wehave a couple of bigger church
like Lake City Church and BlackHawk Church in the Madison area.
I get the feeling it's thatlevel.
I haven't looked it up, butanyway.
(36:53):
So he grew up in that church.
He grew up in that environmentof somewhat fundamentalist but
an evangelical church, beforethat was even defined as what
kind of church are you right?
And his perspective?
Then he became a journalist,became essentially a religious
editor.
I forget what one of the majormagazines I think Vanity Fair or
(37:14):
somebody that had a you know,had a one of the major
publications that had a personthat was reflecting on that part
of our culture the folks at the700 Club and the folks at
Trinity Broadcasting and tryingto get a Christian perspective
from major Christian mediaoutlets and the like of what was
(37:36):
going on in the Christianchurch and wrote a couple of
books.
And now this book has come as aresult and it's a result of him
recognizing, after his fatherretired and eventually he dies,
but when he retired he had gonethrough a bunch of people to
replace him and he found a guythat he just a young man,
(37:56):
probably in his thirties, thatreally had the fire, he had the
discernment, he had the abilityto recognize that the gospel
message is a message foreveryone and the discrimination
between what is of God and whatis not of God, and just sounds
like a really the kind ofpreacher most people would walk
in and go.
Yeah, I like what this guy issaying, not because it tickles
(38:19):
their ears, but because he makessense and he seems to be the
real deal.
So here he has, this new guyand both.
He, tim Alberta, goes to speakat his father's funeral.
His father's funeral, goes toget his eulogy and he makes a
comment I think that's where hemade the comment about Rush
Limbaugh.
Okay, we could go on and onabout him, right, but talk about
(38:44):
somebody pouring gasoline on afire.
Boy, rush was really good atthat.
So he says something and heimmediately got like lambasted.
He got a letter that waswritten to him that they don't
exactly I don't remember thatthey share the exact wording,
but he's so like upset by theletter and he shows it to his
wife and his wife reads it andshe crumbles and says what the
(39:06):
hell is wrong with these people.
And his wife is usually likeyou know, for use the the word
hell, it's like me f-bombing allover the place.
People are using language likethat um, but she, that's how mad
she was.
Well, the same thing with hischosen the man's chosen
successor starts happeningbecause he starts trying to edge
(39:27):
people towards the, the thingsthat they need to look at in
what is happening with theChristian church, and people are
really upset.
People start leaving in droves.
People are, you know, initiallythey had been just going to Tim
Laberda's father andcomplaining about him and saying
you got to do something aboutthis guy.
But then, once he was gone andthey didn't have that conduit
anymore, they just reallystarted coming at him because
(39:50):
there was no filter thereanymore.
And so he's watching this manof God get like pulled down,
more and more and more,discouraged, more and more and
more.
He said, you know, basicallythey kept in touch and he but
the pastor said I don't think Ican take this any longer.
This is just getting so, so bad.
And the Alberta had, of course,experienced the same sort of
(40:14):
thing and he's just kind ofreflecting.
I said what is wrong with us,what's going on?
And the pastor says we havebegun and we do worship America
more than we worship our God.
America has become our goldencalf.
And I thought, boy, I thinkthat is it.
(40:36):
I think there is this when wesay make America great again,
let's make Christianity greatagain, let's make Jesus Christ a
reality in our lives and be theessence of what is going on
around us.
Let us be the essence of Christ.
That's what we need to make.
So and I'm going to challengeanyone who maybe is getting
upset Maybe people who would getupset about this would never
(40:58):
listen to this podcast.
I get it, but share it with them.
Okay, but let's ask them hey,when you look at Mr Trump, do
you see Jesus Christ?
You alluded to that right.
Do you see the fruits of theSpirit, jesus Christ, or do you
see jesus christ?
You alluded to that right.
Do you see the fruits of thespirit, jesus christ, or do you
see a pharisee?
Which do you see?
Speaker 1 (41:17):
but donald trump is not even a pharisee, because he
does.
The word of god is not in him.
Speaker 2 (41:22):
I don't believe, uh but I mean, and neither was it
really in the pharisees, was it?
you know, know.
I mean, they had all theappearances of being religious
and following the word of God,but they were no better than the
Jews that got led away byNebuchadnezzar to Babylon.
You know, in terms of how theywere, you know, trying to make
themselves and do holier thanthou, I mean heck.
(41:43):
They wouldn't have been able tocrucify Jesus if it hadn't been
for their holier than thou.
You know who is this man totell us what we should believe.
As the chosen people of God, weare the leaders of that.
Speaker 1 (41:57):
Well, if you look at that versus even now, as what
you were just describing withTim Alberta's book, you know a
white man or you know callingout a white church, and then
what happens?
They shun them, they run themthrough the ringer.
And same thing with our Lordand Savior.
Of course they had the imagesof, they had the appearance of,
(42:21):
but not the heart of.
What does he say?
You honor me with your lips,but your heart be far from me.
And that's kind of like wherewe are in a lot of instances.
And but I what I like, when youwere talking about Tim Alberta
in the book, you know I'mlooking forward to the read.
You know, of course, when I sawhis interview and he was
(42:42):
explaining, uh, what happened,you know, and it's like, yeah,
he went to bury his father andthen of course, he something,
then of course everybody cameagainst him.
He's like I ain't telling younothing but the word of God with
.
And it's like I'm I'm givingyou the word on you and I'm
holding the denominational value.
I'm holding that, I'm a setaside the denominational bylaws
(43:05):
and I'm just going to give youthe straight word.
Speaker 2 (43:08):
And a lot of people can't handle the straight word
and I'm just going to give youthe straight word, and a lot of
people can't handle the straightword.
Well, and if you have issuewith that, if you have issue
with him doing it, where's yourcounter-biblical argument?
Where is it?
And let's check it.
Speaker 1 (43:22):
It shouldn't be one.
Speaker 2 (43:28):
When we let people like pick a little piece that
fits their agenda and we don'tlook at it in the entirety of
the Bible.
You know, that's where youreally, I think all of us need
to challenge ourselves.
You know, are you beingdissuaded by one?
You know?
I mean, let's look at what wasthe thing we talked about with
food.
Was it not grits?
It was greens or something.
(43:49):
I was talking about black foodthat I didn't get, and what was
that, bro?
uh, collard greens yeah I thinkit was collard greens and I was
like I don't see how anyonecould like that.
They're weeds, aren't they?
I mean kind of thing.
And you start telling me abouthow that was prepared by what
wasn't your grandma.
Or there's a recipe and youstart telling me about how she
(44:10):
prepared it and what happened.
And I'm like I got to try that,so, and that's, I think, kind
of what happens with some ofthis.
You know, christian framing, theChristian frame of reference
okay, is that we pick ourexperience with something and we
translate it into all of it.
(44:31):
We try to take our experienceand make it the entirety of what
there is.
So when I hear someone thatsays I'm firmly Trump, whatever,
I'm not saying you idiot, whatthe hell you know, which is what
a lot of the libertards and theMaggites do right, I want to
say that's really interesting.
Why do you feel that?
Why do you think that that'strue?
(44:53):
I mean, have you consideredthat there's this too?
Because there is always alarger picture that is not being
discussed, because we wantpeople to stay on our side of
the agenda.
We want people to contribute,to give us the power to move the
needle.
Speaker 1 (45:09):
I'm asking you again Christian church.
Speaker 2 (45:11):
I'm asking you again what needle are you moving?
Are you moving some politicalfigure's needle, or are you
truly moving the needle of theHoly Spirit, of the Word of God?
Show me, show me which oneyou're doing.
Speaker 1 (45:28):
Show me, show me which one you're doing.
And the thing is in theunderlying principle of the
Bible.
You know, of course, our Lordand Savior Jesus.
But what?
What are we called to do?
Love people.
And if people can start toreally love people, it would
(45:49):
limit a lot of the things thatwe are facing right now the
discrimination, the exclusion,all these different things, the
inequities, the inequalities,all these things.
Speaker 2 (46:10):
If we love people, if we can just simply get to that
part of, even if we can justhold on to that part of the
message of the Bible love people.
Speaker 1 (46:13):
I just will start to be in a much better place.
Speaker 2 (46:15):
I'm looking up a song that I can't remember who the
artist is.
I want to see if I can find it,but the verse of it is
consistently love God to lovepeople, love God to love people.
I want to find that.
Love God to love people.
I want to find that.
So if there's anyone else herethat's listening, that wants to
hear what I think has to be oursort of our preeminent calling,
(46:43):
oh, I hear what I can Wellremember.
Speaker 1 (46:45):
I think you mentioned a book in 1 John, but 1 John 4,
right, right 4, 20 and 21.
If anyone says I love God andhates his brother, he is a liar.
For he who does not love hisbrother, whom he has seen, how
can he love God whom he has notseen?
Yep, and this commandment wehave from him, that he who loves
(47:07):
God must love his brother, alsoRight.
So if you say you love God, yougot to love me.
You can't say you love God andhate me.
Speaker 2 (47:16):
So it's Love God, love People, by Danny Gokey,
which makes complete sense.
Danny Gokey's from Milwaukee.
Come on, man, milwaukee.
Or as we say in Milwaukee,milwaukee.
It's a two-syllable word, okay,milwaukee, milwaukee.
So I got to take that middlesyllable.
It's an extraneous syllable,anyways, right.
So, dude, here we are.
It's been like 50 minutes orsomething.
(47:36):
We warned people, though.
It's part one, okay, of thestate of our nation, but I want
to get you out of that chair,because I know my brother.
Don't worry about that, Well youjust had some surgery, man.
There's no sense in making yousuffer.
Speaker 1 (47:54):
We're all going to suffer.
I get it, but making you?
Speaker 2 (47:57):
suffer when we can keep talking.
We don't have to just get itall done today, darn it, you
know right.
So you've been listening toFrame of Reference coming
together and I tell you that'swhat we could do as a country.
Stop polarizing, start comingtogether, coming together under
the oh, started playing.
(48:21):
So that can be, that can be our.
Our rallying cry, right, is todo do everything we can to come
together.
Love God, to love people.
Why not?
The alternative is pretty ugly.
So, bro, see you next week, Ihope.
Speaker 1 (48:43):
Absolutely Okay.
Speaker 2 (48:45):
And what's your name?
Again, I forget.
Speaker 1 (48:48):
Antoine Haldeman.
Speaker 2 (48:49):
Sr Antoine.
We got to find out about thatname too.
We can talk about our namesometime and how we got named,
what we got named.
That would be a good thing.
So but and we're Frame ofReference coming together, like
I said, hope you all have gottensomething out of this, hope you
can maybe let your neighbors or, you know, friends of yours
know hey, listen to these guys,think about what they're saying,
(49:12):
you know, because what's thesense if you're not going to get
the word out of who JesusChrist really is right?
So, and at least think about it, even if you're not, you know,
a quote-unquote Christian.
You love people.
Here you go, there you go, seeyou, dude, behave.
All right man.
(49:32):
If you can't behave, be careful.
Get my best for the wife andwe'll talk more next time.
Speaker 1 (49:38):
Absolutely, and you do the same man the road that
keeps breaking.
But if we wanna find a way tochange it, it all comes down to
this.
Speaker 2 (49:53):
Love God and love people, cause love is patient,
love is kind, rescues hearts andchanges lives.
Love is all we need to makethings right.
Gotta, keep it real simple.
(50:14):
Yeah, it's really so simple.
let's have it, ladies and gentlemen, welcome, welcome
, welcome, welcome, welcome,welcome.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
I'm raul abrash and I'm Antoine Holman Sr and we are
Frame of Reference comingtogether.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
We have to do that like as a song Frame of
Reference coming together,something, right, can we work on
that?
Maybe a four part harmonytheme's gonna come in soon,
right?
Okay, yeah, I'll get mydaughter to come in and get
Ramona and we'll do four partharmony there.
Man, it'll be like it'll behappening.
So, anyways, folks, welcome.
Thanks for joining us again.
(00:49):
Uh, those of you that are outthere listening, you know that
uh, my brother antoine and I uhwe're trying to be straight
shooters about a lot of theissues that are are confronting
our nation and, uh, trying tocome at it from a unified
perspective.
This is not.
We are not Democrat heavy.
We are not Republican heavy atleast I hope so.
(01:10):
We are ideal, happy.
We are Church of Jesus Christ,happy and slanted.
That's what we're striving tobe, folks.
So if that name makes youuncomfortable right now, I just
want to encourage you.
One of the things I havenoticed about the name of Jesus
Christ over my lifetime and I'malmost 64, so I'm no spring
(01:33):
chicken but one of the thingsthat I have noticed is that you
can talk about Buddha, you cantalk about Muhammad.
About Muhammad, you can talkabout really pretty much
Confucius, any of the othermajor figureheads of what we
would call you know religions.
You know that have thosetraditional, you know
(01:53):
figureheads that they arefollowing Jesus Christ makes
people uncomfortable and I'vealways thought that that's
really interesting.
Some of that, I believe, isbecause Christians in general
have done a lousy job, frankly,of displaying who Jesus is,
because Jesus was not the onethat well you know you need to
(02:14):
be saved and you need to be theSon of God.
You know they have that sort ofrighteousness that just makes
people uncomfortable, that senseof you know we are different,
that sort of righteousness thatjust makes people uncomfortable,
that sense of you know we aredifferent.
No, we're not.
You know we're really not.
We're sinners.
We struggle with the samethings everyone struggles with,
(02:39):
and to adopt that philosophy isto adopt and forget about the
log in our eye and the speck ofdust in others.
We are called to be the peoplethat are at the well, waiting
for the woman that's beenmarried seven times, and talk
with them about what else isthere in life.
We're there for the MaryMagdalene's.
We're supposed to be there forthe tax collectors and all of
those folks that need to hearwho Jesus really is.
(03:02):
So that's who we are.
So if you can get behind that,if you're willing to hopefully
listen to where we're comingfrom, that'd be fantastic.
But my brother, antoine, acrossthe screen from me, he had this
idea which is here we go, folksto talk about, probably for the
(03:23):
next couple episodes, the stateof our nation.
So we're doing a state of ourunion and in next couple of
episodes, the state of ournation.
So we're doing a state of ourunion and in my mind it's a
state of our disunion addressand hopefully we're going to
provoke some conversation.
Hopefully we're going toprovoke some condemnation,
honestly.
Hopefully we're going topromote some consternation I'm
(03:43):
doing these C words you likethat, antoine, so you know and
hopefully some confirmation Wow,and Lord's bringing those words
to me, that's not me Of what isgoing on.
How did we get to this pointwhere we are so, so incredibly
(04:06):
polarized, so incrediblyantagonized, so incredibly?
You know, just fueled.
I mean literally fueled.
It's like people have beenpouring gasoline on the fires
that have been in our hearts,the discontent that's been in
people's hearts in general inthis country for years.
(04:27):
We're just pouring fuel on it.
We're just saying get burned,baby burn, and at what cost.
You know, scorched earthdoesn't work well for anybody,
you know.
Try having a marriage with thekind of you know, well, my wife
does it Well, my husband doesthis Well, my husband does this
Well, you're just terrible.
(04:48):
You B-I-T-C-H Well, youB-A-S-T-A-R.
Don't help anything.
Try doing that.
Try doing that in a marriagefor so long.
If you don't care about themarriage, try it, see what
happens.
But we supposedly, on both bothsides of this equation care
about our nation.
We care about people.
When there's a problem in acountry like Haiti gets wiped
(05:11):
out, we are people that stand upand go help those folks.
That's who we are.
So when you want to talk aboutmake America great again, let's
talk about that.
Let's talk about that presencethat we have had for years and
years and years.
Let's not talk about the wall.
Let's not talk about thatpresence that we have had for
years and years and years.
Let's not talk about the wall.
Let's not talk about, you know,having daca.
Let's not talk about thosethings that just inherently,
(05:32):
have been used so often topolarize us.
Let's talk about what unifiesus.
Let's talk and that's whatwe're hopefully going to get at
right, I, I, I'm just talking,I'm blah, blah blah.
I'm sorry, antoine, you havesomething to say do your thing
so, uh, I had to do my thingright, do your thing yeah, mr,
(05:52):
mr sidewalk prophet, that's me,mr soapbox, I'm, I'm, uh, mr
clean, you know, arm and hammer,that's that's what I be.
So, uh, no, I, I don't.
I'm just trying to shareperspective and I hope it
resonates with some people.
I don't.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
Absolutely, and and and again.
It's like, uh, talking from theheart is, uh, you know, talking
from the heart is what isneeded right now.
Uh, especially when it's anopen heart.
You know it's a, it's a yes,I'm willing to tell the truth
but at at the same time, I'mwilling to receive the
correction on my end.
You know what I mean and that'swhere I think what we're all
(06:29):
falling short a little bit.
You know, it's like, uh, I can,like you said earlier, we can
point out the speck in thebrother's eye, but not look at
the plank in our own.
I could tell you about you, butwhat about me?
And that's where we are.
And uh, you know, but again, um,going back to some of our first
, very first episodes, you knowwe're talking about what's wrong
(06:50):
with the country and why isthese things happening.
Of course you know I said that,hey, I blame the church.
You know I blame the church andI hate to use the word blame,
but you know is the church issupposed to be the beacon of
light, the beacon of hope, thebeacon of unity and compassion
and empathy.
But you know, it has becomemore of a politicized entity now
(07:15):
.
You know, of course, like we'retalking about.
You know what's going on in theworld, in this country.
It's just a spirit, it's just ame, my, I spirit is a spirit of
division, is a spirit of chaosand dysfunction, is a spirit of
just distraction, is a spirit ofprojection.
(07:37):
There's a lot of you know whatI mean.
There's a lot of fingerpointing.
There's a lot of my truth.
Is the truth going on?
And of course, our Bible sayshey, you know, let God be true
and every man a liar, becauseevery issue pertaining to life
is in the Bible.
But lo and behold, we know thisthat a lot of people don't read
(07:58):
the Bible.
Even people that go to churchdon't read the Bible.
They get their infilling fromthe past on Sundays, and then
that's that.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
Well, we pick and choose, right, we pick and
choose the passages that fit ouragenda.
You know there's a lot of stuffthat gets pulled out that,
honestly, a lot of it is OldTestament, which is problematic
in and of itself because, youknow, old Testament is only
really revealing who is to comein New Testament.
So if you are going to take thatas the biblical truth and not
(08:27):
recognize what Jesus did tofulfill that truth but also to
counter it with the new gospel,the new message of God.
You're missing a fundamentalpoint that we, as Christians,
need to be careful of.
We're sliding down a reallyslippery slope at that point and
I think about like I'msuggesting this may be one of
(08:49):
our focuses, because this isprobably a several message
podcast, trying to keep it downto bite-sized pieces but make
America great again.
Okay, let's just take thatapart for a little bit.
When I hear Christiansconsistently entrenching
(09:12):
themselves in that andentrenching themselves in the
primary issues that have beenassociated with it and that are
proudly displayed as what it'sall about.
And you think about the wall,fighting crime, you know getting
.
You know trying to do something, to do something to make us,
you know, preeminent in theworld again.
(09:33):
You know.
You know figureheads that saythings like if Russia wouldn't
try this, if I was in office, orNorth Korea wouldn't try this,
if I was, I would take care ofthis in office.
Or North Korea wouldn't trythis.
If I was, I would take care ofthis.
The strong man you knowphilosophy and the extrinsics of
the whole argument.
When you think about that, whereare the Christians that are
(09:56):
saying make Jesus great again,make Jesus integral again?
We complain about prayer notbeing part of schools, but if we
do our job as Christians, ourkids are going to want to pray
in school, you know, and whetheror not they can publicly get
around and kumbaya together, youknow they will be praying in
(10:17):
school.
If we do it right with our kids, they're going to go to church,
they're going to go to school,they're going to go everywhere
in their life and we're going tohopefully teach them that when
you encounter someone thatreally ticks you off or is just
a complete jerk, that you willpray, that you'll pray for them
or you'll pray for the fortitudeto stand up against them.
(10:37):
You know, with social media,you know the things that are
happening there, even in oursmall community, the kids that
are killing themselves becausethey've been bullied so much.
Where is the church?
We're looking to, you know,school system to solve things
that the church can solve and,frankly, I think the church has
the only set of tools that willwork.
(10:58):
So where are we?
Where are we and I'm speakingto myself as much, because I
could just as easily go to aschool board meeting.
In fact, I've been feelingcalled to do that and I haven't.
So I'm being disobedient andnot doing it.
But the reality is church, getit together, get it together.
(11:19):
Your allegiance is not toDonald Trump, it's not to Joe
Biden, it is not to those people.
Your allegiance is to JesusChrist, and he sets a completely
different example than eitherone of them.
They got pieces of it, perhaps,but you're putting people in an
(11:41):
equation, in a hierarchy thatthey cannot be in.
People in an equation in ahierarchy that they cannot be in
it, doesn't you know we don'ttalk about.
You know, even those of us talkabout church, family, god,
family and then country.
Even those of us that talkabout you know well, god places
authorities in our life andwe're supposed to subject to
them.
You know that whole phrasemeans a whole different thing.
(12:04):
You know that that whole phrasemeans a whole different thing.
Than he came into the world,god gave his only begotten son
so that people would be able tobe brought to him.
So how is, how is donald trump,how is joe biden more important
than that?
And if this is making you upsetas a Christian, praise God,
(12:25):
because that's the Holy Spiritworking in you going.
I'm not that way, okay great.
Why do you feel you're not thatway?
Let's talk.
Let's talk.
I'll tell you how I'm failing.
I know I am every single day,probably every moment.
My wife will tell you, my kidswill tell you how I fail, but I
know who I believe failing.
I know I am every single day,probably every moment.
(12:46):
My wife will tell you.
My kids will tell you how Ifail, but I know who I believe
in and I know when I, when Ihave those moments where I'm
soft enough to say God, I amscrewing up royally.
Please help me when I'm weak.
You're strong.
Please be strong for me rightnow, please.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
Please.
Yeah, just going back to theoriginal point I was going to
make you know, of course, um,but I was saying that the you
know, it's like I hate using theword blame the church, but at
the same time it's like this iswhere a lot, a huge source of
everything in our community, issupposed to come from.
You know, of course, uh, butthe bible does tell us plainly
(13:24):
in that day, even God's electwill be deceived.
And one of my favorite books,or one of my favorite chapters
in the Bible is John, chaptereight.
And this is where, right afterJesus forgives the adulterous
woman, you know, they come tohim who are you to forgive, and
this and that?
And the other thing is like,well, he's telling them who he
(13:44):
is, but they refuse to him.
Who are you to forgive, andthis and that and the other?
Then it's like, well, he'stelling them who he is, but they
refuse to believe him.
And he's like, if y'all would,if they're like who is your
father?
And he's like I am he.
And then it's like, well, weare children of abraham.
And he's like, if y'all werechildren of abraham, y'all know
me and y'all know my father.
And he's like y'all, y'all areyour father's, the father of
lies, the devil, and so,basically, in even in present
(14:07):
time, uh, just, what's happeningin the church today, you know
again, I just, we just try toimplore people to read their
bible, you know, and if youdon't have an understanding,
that's where you need to reachout to a pastor or a church
leader and say, hey, sit with me, help me understand this, break
this thing down for me, becauseI want to do my best to be
(14:28):
obedient.
You know, of course, what didJesus say?
He's like if my word abides inyou, you are my disciple, indeed
, meaning, if my word is in you,if you're committed to me, if
you are abiding in me and myword is abiding in you, you are
my disciples indeed, and youshall know the truth, and the
truth shall set you free.
(14:48):
And of course, you know againwhat is that truth?
It's the living word and, ofcourse, the word, the Bible, is
coming to life in present day,all these things that we're
seeing.
You know, right now, the churchis standing before God's altar.
I had this picture of just achurch standing before God's
(15:09):
altar about presenting strangefruits.
Remember what happened toAaron's first two sons?
They went and burnt incense andit was a strange fire before
the Lord, and that's whathappened and that's what's
happening now.
We're mixing politics and churchand that's not how it's
supposed to be.
(15:29):
You know, we got differentsects of churches actually
forming militias and things likethat, and then it's like we're
taking the word and we'reperverting the word, like you
said earlier.
You know we're taking cherrypicking scripture to fit what
we're trying to do, but thething is God says he will not,
(15:54):
he is not going to justify yournonsense meaning.
Of course we tend to say OK,we're going to be obedient to
our version of what I readversus sometimes.
The Bible is very plain Loveyour brother.
This commandment I leave youwith.
(16:17):
Love one another.
You know, and we can't beselective in this.
You know, and we can't beselective in this.
And this is where I believethat when we were talking about,
you know, the issues in thecountry, it starts in church
Because, again, going back towhen the Southern Baptists
(16:38):
separated from the NorthernBaptists, because the Southern
Baptists still didn't want togive up their slaves.
And you know, and it's like evennow, present day, it's like you
actually have sex of churchessaying we are white evangelicals
or now we have Christiannationalists and the underlying
problem with that is hate.
(16:59):
You know, of course you don'twant equality or equity for all
people.
You want to be exalted.
You feel like you're losingpart of the country.
We're all minorities here now.
We all are.
I would say we're coming to aspace where this thing is almost
evenly yoked, so to speak, whenit comes to a race standpoint.
(17:20):
But it is again the love peoplepiece is what's missing, and
but also the nullifying of God'sword.
You know, of course you take,you take.
You know I gave this analogybefore you take an apple.
Apple a day is good for you,right?
Apple a day, keep the doctoraway.
But yeah, if you add carameland M&Ms and all this other kind
(17:42):
of stuff to the apple, itbecomes deadly caramel and M&Ms
and all this other kind of stuff.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
To the apple it becomes deadly.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
How about insects?
Speaker 2 (17:51):
Let's add worms to it .
Okay, how about that?
Put that apple set Right.
You know, you keep sayingyou're having a problem with
blame and I keep thinking.
When you talk about that, Ithink about conviction.
I don't think it is, you know,and I think I understand the
resonating of that in theconviction that you have.
It's because it isn't.
You know, god doesn't do thatsort of thing.
(18:13):
He convicts us through his HolySpirit.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
Oh yeah, and that's the thing.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
To research his truth , to look closely and to stop
and pray.
Lord, this anger that's in me,you know, this strife, that's
not.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
And that's where, and that's why I was saying, like
you know, with that apple right,either you're nullifying the
word one way or the other.
Either you're adding to it oryou're not omitting, or you're
omitting from it.
And that's where it's like.
You know, again, a lot ofpeople will actually warfare
against God.
They'll go into spiritualwarfare.
God is trying to correct themand he's showing them their way,
(18:47):
but they'll be like, oh, that'snot of God.
And it's like, yes, it is Godtrying to correct you, but you
won't receive the correction.
And instead of accepting thetruth or just accepting that
correction, we double down onthe lie.
And then again, it's like theBible says, for whatsoever is in
a man's heart, so is he in hisbehavior.
You know, and of course, again,it's a heart issue.
(19:09):
We teach, hey, for whatever'sin your heart is between you and
God, just like, say, you and Isitting across the screen, I
would say, hey, whatever's inRaul's heart is between him and
God.
And what's in my heart isbetween me and God and of course
, and based on our relationships, is what's gonna come from us.
You know what I mean.
That's what's exhibited in theworld and of course, we are to
(19:31):
exhibit his likeness and image.
Right, we're predestined in hislikeness and image.
We are to replicate andduplicate his image throughout
the earth, but again it's likewhat we're seeing and God is
love, and so we're not seeinglove, but we're hearing
scriptures thrown all over theplace, but we're not seeing love
(19:51):
.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
Put your money where your mouth is.
Huh, put your money where yourmouth is baby.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
And the sad part is, you know this thing, the racial
divide, the biggest racialdivide, is in the church and
it's spilling over intoeverything else, where it
actually should be the exactopposite.
The church should be unified,you know, preaching the same
(20:23):
message, you know, and yet we'repreaching multiple different
things.
You know, and it's a scary time.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
I keep thinking of that scripture that I think I've
told you before.
That was on my wife's and mywedding invitation and not my
idea, hers.
Ok, let's make that clear.
And it's, I believe, 1 John 6,.
So in the epistles, and he saysBeloved, let us love one
another, for everyone that lovesis born of God and knows God,
(21:14):
or knows God and is born of God.
So that scripture to me hasalways been so compelling as a
lightning rod and a motivatorfor even the predestination
things we are predestined to beChristians, and Christians will
use that as see, I'm special.
Right, I was predestined, but Iput that together with.
God is not willing that anyshould perish, but that all
should have eternal life.
So to me, predestination isabout everyone is predestined to
(21:36):
be with God.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
And that's why he said, for God so loved the world
.
He didn't say God so lovedChristians, but God so loved
these different groups of people.
He said the world, that theworld might be saved, right.
So when you say whitenationalists.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
When you say you know Christian, you know
nationalists.
When you say white evangelicals, seriously, guys, christians
out there that are listening,that are part of those movements
, ask yourself what is whitedoing with the word evangelist?
I mean, for goodness sakes,jesus wasn't a white man.
Look at that part of the world,for God's sakes.
(22:10):
I mean you can say he's aCaucasian.
Iranians say they're Caucasians.
Iranians say that they're partof that whole mix because
they're not really black.
So right, I don't get it.
Why is that word, why is thatokay with anyone to have that
word blended with evangelist?
(22:32):
Evangelist means someone thatcarries the good news, doesn't
say and just carry it to thewhite people.
That's the white people, okay,you know, even Jesus.
Even Jesus comes and says to therabbis, to the Pharisees, to
the Sadducees he says thismessage is no longer for just
the Jewish people.
(22:52):
God so loved the world that hegave his only begotten son so
that any who believed in himwould not perish.
He meant when he talks to Paul,when the Holy Spirit, when
Jesus talks to Paul, he says,yeah, it's everybody now, and
even the apostles, the Jewishapostles, because they were all
Jews.
Right, what?
What are you talking about?
You know, that kind of reactionto the whole thing, that can't
(23:14):
possibly be.
We're the chosen people.
What is this white nationalismexcept we're the chosen people?
Come on.
Speaker 1 (23:24):
At this point.
This is going beyond scripture.
This is going beyond the pulpit.
At this point.
This is this is going beyondscripture.
This is going beyond the pulpitat this point.
It has now become a politicalsect.
You know, of course, a lot ofthese churches and these major,
major men of God or preachersare standing behind an entity
(23:45):
and allowing this entity to.
They say that this entity isJesus or he is the, and it's
like get out of here.
When this person has not chosenhe has not exhibited one fruit
of the spirit, not one and and,but.
The thing is, there are, theyare getting behind this, because
(24:06):
he makes it easier to projector to say their idea of how the,
how the country should be like.
You know, of course, you know,trump.
He pushes, you know, got rid ofRoe, he is actually pushing
(24:29):
this.
He says things that people,some people, want to say but
just can't say it.
You know, then, of course, nowyou got the people that are in
his corner, in his sect, so tospeak, are saying things like
DEI is death or DEI is this.
It's just they replace the Nword with DEI.
Anything that goes for theadvancement of color people, or
indigenous people, or Hispanic,latinx, whatever, or transsexual
(24:55):
, it's frowned upon.
Like that conservative society?
I believe it is, of course,these very groups of people.
They shun and they create lawsand try to marginalize, like,
say, black Lives Matter,whatever organization that's
trying to put a spotlight onsocial, racial, economic
(25:18):
injustices.
They are getting sued this,that and the other.
Like that one conservativesociety, the same thing that
they're fighting, uh, to stop.
They have been doing forcenturies Now.
Like that one group, they, theybasically have an office in the
Supreme court and their wholejob is to sue or sue everything
that is for the advancement,like there was a nonprofit.
(25:41):
They were just like hey, wewant to give a um, minor women
of color, uh, grants to go abouttrying to build businesses.
They sued and said that this isdiscriminant against white
people.
And these are the things thatare going on.
But these people are they saythey are christian people.
(26:02):
We want to, we want to upholdChristian values in the country.
When we're talking aboutChristian values, we're talking
about equity.
Equality because God said Iwill bring all nations to myself
, not just some, but all nationsto myself.
(26:23):
He said that.
He didn't say I'm just going tobring some.
But this is where, again, youjust cry in prayer.
I just cry because it's likeLord, what can we do to fix this
?
Or what can we do to makepeople understand?
Because you and I talked aboutthis before, regardless of what
(26:44):
side of the aisle you sit on,you know, uh, republican or
democrat, whatever, these arevery smart people.
They, they could actually benice people at heart.
But it's like what are?
What are you missing?
Or what am I missing that Makesyou think it's OK to take away
(27:08):
the rights of other people andwomen and to just say anything
you want to marginalize ordemonize another group.
If we don't agree with you, wehate you.
That's what we are right now.
If you don't agree with whatI'm saying, I hate you, and
that's not what it's supposed tobe.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
Right?
Well, isn't it Martin LutherKing?
I'm paraphrasing here when wetalk about discrimination, one
of the things that DEI wastrying to address was Martin
Luther King's saying ofinjustice against one individual
is injustice against all peopleis injustice against all people
.
And so when you, you know, wewant to quote Martin Luther King
(27:52):
you know I've seen a lot ofpoliticians want to you know
he's a central figure thatrepresents good things, honestly
good things, and a movementthat pushed us forward.
So everyone wants to alignthemselves with him by using the
same phrases of his over andover again.
But we forget things like youknow injustice, this is
(28:14):
injustice, and this wholediscrimination thing.
I'm sorry, I got to take alittle issue with that too.
Discrimination as a word, okay,it means that you're making a,
you're identifying thedifferences between things,
you're using a discriminatoryview to be able to determine how
(28:37):
things categorize in your life,but we turn it into a tool to
segregate.
We turn it when you hear peoplefighting against DEI and
fighting against whitediscrimination that is using it
as a tool to polarize.
And fundamentally, there isnothing I think inherently wrong
(29:01):
, morally wrong, with theprocess of discrimination.
What's wrong with it is theutilization of the word
discrimination and there's areal profound difference there
that when we can't understand,when we can't discriminate that
these people that are beingtreated in one way, that are
people of color, are treateddifferently than these people
(29:25):
that are white, if we can'tdiscriminate those differences
remember this is not just a youknow a thing about using it as a
tool.
It's using it as an opportunityto say, well, yeah, there, if I
look at those things veryclearly and objectively and
honestly and humbly, there are.
We are discriminating.
We're discriminating in a lotof ways.
(29:47):
We're discriminating in someways that benefit one side of
the equation and are a deficitto the other side of the
equation, and we ought to behonest about that.
That isn't a threat to youwhite people.
That is not a threat to you.
That's an opportunity to behonest, to look at the history
of this country.
I don't want to feel bad aboutAmerica.
(30:08):
I never had slaves, but that'spart of who we are.
We've got to embrace the factthat we were, that.
We are trying to work away fromthat.
And yet there are forces, thereare people, there are folks
with an agenda that are tryingto keep us there.
They're trying to keep it fromhappening.
(30:28):
They're trying to resist thefact that our calling again as
Christians is to do if we wantto say we're a Judeo-Christian
country, which that's anotherwhole topic.
Because look at the four, youknow founding fathers and women
of this country.
Some of them were born againfiery, some of them were
marjorie, lukewarm, and some ofthem just no, no, no, no, no, no
(30:52):
, no, that's not me, that's notme, but I do believe in this
righteous liberty, all thethings that we need to jettison
from King George in that worldand have a better society here.
Anyway, I get off the point.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
Well, when we talk about that discriminant word,
you're right and it's like youknow, we like to be able to
(31:26):
understand the differences inand, of course, but when we use
that word, discriminant isbasically taking away from you
know, whether you're taking awaya right, you're taking away a
voice you want.
Believe I've shared with thisbefore.
You know, it's like, you know,it's just this position of this,
almost like this position ofpower Most white men take, where
it's like, if I disagree withyou, you is just there's like
this puffed upness, you know,and it's like, hey, no, I'm just
disagreeing.
(31:46):
You know, it's like, and it'slike, automatically there's this
hierarchy or this standard,like you are here and I am here,
and it's like, no, we bothright here, we're supposed to be
, you know, and that's where,when we like, when you are
talking like that with differentpeople, and it's like you know
you just watch this.
No, just again, this is just mebeing a black man you just the
(32:10):
stance a person will take whenthey come in front of you and
the wording you know.
Of course, I don't think peopleare stupid, I think people are
very smart.
So I think I believe that whenwords are chosen, they are very
carefully chosen.
And so it's like when you'rehaving conversations and it's
(32:32):
like, right away is there's thisstance, you know.
But again it's like we're in aspace now where, hey, we want to
be heard, we want to beunderstood, and yet people,
there's a people saying, youknow what, stay in your place,
and and we're not there anymore.
But we got to come to a spacewhere it's like, hey, I'm
(32:52):
willing to listen to you.
I need you to be willing tolisten to me.
And we have to come, we have towork this thing out, we have to
learn how to live life and dolife together.
And the Bible tells us, youknow, in Romans 12, one of my
favorite quick, another one ofmy favorite quick chapters.
(33:14):
But it says for as much as isup to you, live peaceably with
all men.
That means, for much as you areresponsible for, try to live
peaceably.
So that means you'reresponsible for doing research
to know what is right or wrong,what is the truth and what is a
lie.
And it's like you know we'retalking about this before.
I say for as much as it is up toyou, go and learn the basic
(33:36):
functions of government, so when, and the offices therein.
So when someone comes to youand say, hey, the reason we
can't do this is because of this, you will know in your own mind
, in your own heart, that that'snot accurate, because this is
how the law of the land works.
For as much as it is up to you,just, hey, take the time to
(33:57):
just understand another person'splight.
We've talked about this beforeUnderstanding another person's
plight, understand their hurt,their struggle, their mindset,
their perception of things, andeven going as deep to understand
why they feel the way they do.
And it's just for as much asit's up to us, we have to just
(34:20):
be willing to be patient withother people and take the time
and listen and learn their wayand understand their way.
And now, granted, there aresome ways people are just not
willing to reason at all, youknow.
They're just not willing toreason, like we see MAGA.
You know there's no reasoningwith that.
You know there's no reasoning.
Speaker 2 (34:43):
Right.
Speaker 1 (34:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
So you come down to.
Well, I'm going to referencethis, so I open the door because
we're already in almost well,we're over a half hour talking,
so this is why that's a bitmultiple part thing, right, but
one of the things I'm going totry to reference over the next
few pop uh podcasts and I'mputting a shameless plug in for
the book.
But there's a man by the nameof tim alberta who has written a
(35:06):
book called for the kingdom,the power and the the Glory.
So that title may put somepeople off but it's a reference
to the Our Father, which mostfolks know, that prayer, anyways
, he is the son of a whiteevangelical preacher that was a
(35:27):
very successful businessman andearly on in his middle age, I
think in the 30s.
Yeah, there you go.
That's the book.
Tilt it a little bit.
It's in the light.
There you go the Kingdom, thePower and the Glory.
American Evangelos in a periodof what is evangelism In an age
of extremism?
Okay, american Evangelos in anage of extremism.
(35:47):
Okay, american evangelicals andevangelicals in an age of
extremism.
Anyway, so he's the son of aman who successful businessman
from what I can read into it,making good money, being a good
provider, and he all of a suddenhas this revelation that I need
to be a preacher, I need to dothis, I need to go get retooled
so I can do that.
Does that process?
(36:08):
His wife supports it, you know,I'm not sure.
He'll probably live off savingsfor a while or he's working at
Walmart, who knows.
But he ends up getting hisdivinity degree, goes to
Michigan so transports everybody, I believe, from Pennsylvania
and they go out to Michigan nearDetroit, if I remember.
But it's like a suburb ofDetroit, a pretty affluent area.
(36:32):
So it starts a small church orcomes to a church, is relatively
small and built it to a reallybig church.
I mean that was quite megachurch size.
But in our area, you know, wehave a couple of bigger church
like Lake City Church and BlackHawk Church in the Madison area.
I get the feeling it's thatlevel.
I haven't looked it up, butanyway.
(36:53):
So he grew up in that church.
He grew up in that environmentof somewhat fundamentalist but
an evangelical church, beforethat was even defined as what
kind of church are you right?
And his perspective?
Then he became a journalist,became essentially a religious
editor.
I forget what one of the majormagazines I think Vanity Fair or
(37:14):
somebody that had a you know,had a one of the major
publications that had a personthat was reflecting on that part
of our culture the folks at the700 Club and the folks at
Trinity Broadcasting and tryingto get a Christian perspective
from major Christian mediaoutlets and the like of what was
(37:36):
going on in the Christianchurch and wrote a couple of
books.
And now this book has come as aresult and it's a result of him
recognizing, after his fatherretired and eventually he dies,
but when he retired he had gonethrough a bunch of people to
replace him and he found a guythat he just a young man,
(37:56):
probably in his thirties, thatreally had the fire, he had the
discernment, he had the abilityto recognize that the gospel
message is a message foreveryone and the discrimination
between what is of God and whatis not of God, and just sounds
like a really the kind ofpreacher most people would walk
in and go.
Yeah, I like what this guy issaying, not because it tickles
(38:19):
their ears, but because he makessense and he seems to be the
real deal.
So here he has, this new guyand both.
He, tim Alberta, goes to speakat his father's funeral.
His father's funeral, goes toget his eulogy and he makes a
comment I think that's where hemade the comment about Rush
Limbaugh.
Okay, we could go on and onabout him, right, but talk about
(38:44):
somebody pouring gasoline on afire.
Boy, rush was really good atthat.
So he says something and heimmediately got like lambasted.
He got a letter that waswritten to him that they don't
exactly I don't remember thatthey share the exact wording,
but he's so like upset by theletter and he shows it to his
wife and his wife reads it andshe crumbles and says what the
(39:06):
hell is wrong with these people.
And his wife is usually likeyou know, for use the the word
hell, it's like me f-bombing allover the place.
People are using language likethat um, but she, that's how mad
she was.
Well, the same thing with hischosen the man's chosen
successor starts happeningbecause he starts trying to edge
(39:27):
people towards the, the thingsthat they need to look at in
what is happening with theChristian church, and people are
really upset.
People start leaving in droves.
People are, you know, initiallythey had been just going to Tim
Laberda's father andcomplaining about him and saying
you got to do something aboutthis guy.
But then, once he was gone andthey didn't have that conduit
anymore, they just reallystarted coming at him because
(39:50):
there was no filter thereanymore.
And so he's watching this manof God get like pulled down,
more and more and more,discouraged, more and more and
more.
He said, you know, basicallythey kept in touch and he but
the pastor said I don't think Ican take this any longer.
This is just getting so, so bad.
And the Alberta had, of course,experienced the same sort of
(40:14):
thing and he's just kind ofreflecting.
I said what is wrong with us,what's going on?
And the pastor says we havebegun and we do worship America
more than we worship our God.
America has become our goldencalf.
And I thought, boy, I thinkthat is it.
(40:36):
I think there is this when wesay make America great again,
let's make Christianity greatagain, let's make Jesus Christ a
reality in our lives and be theessence of what is going on
around us.
Let us be the essence of Christ.
That's what we need to make.
So and I'm going to challengeanyone who maybe is getting
upset Maybe people who would getupset about this would never
(40:58):
listen to this podcast.
I get it, but share it with them.
Okay, but let's ask them hey,when you look at Mr Trump, do
you see Jesus Christ?
You alluded to that right.
Do you see the fruits of theSpirit, jesus Christ, or do you
see jesus christ?
You alluded to that right.
Do you see the fruits of thespirit, jesus christ, or do you
see a pharisee?
Which do you see?
Speaker 1 (41:17):
but donald trump is not even a pharisee, because he
does.
The word of god is not in him.
Speaker 2 (41:22):
I don't believe, uh but I mean, and neither was it
really in the pharisees, was it?
you know, know.
I mean, they had all theappearances of being religious
and following the word of God,but they were no better than the
Jews that got led away byNebuchadnezzar to Babylon.
You know, in terms of how theywere, you know, trying to make
themselves and do holier thanthou, I mean heck.
(41:43):
They wouldn't have been able tocrucify Jesus if it hadn't been
for their holier than thou.
You know who is this man totell us what we should believe.
As the chosen people of God, weare the leaders of that.
Speaker 1 (41:57):
Well, if you look at that versus even now, as what
you were just describing withTim Alberta's book, you know a
white man or you know callingout a white church, and then
what happens?
They shun them, they run themthrough the ringer.
And same thing with our Lordand Savior.
Of course they had the imagesof, they had the appearance of,
(42:21):
but not the heart of.
What does he say?
You honor me with your lips,but your heart be far from me.
And that's kind of like wherewe are in a lot of instances.
And but I what I like, when youwere talking about Tim Alberta
in the book, you know I'mlooking forward to the read.
You know, of course, when I sawhis interview and he was
(42:42):
explaining, uh, what happened,you know, and it's like, yeah,
he went to bury his father andthen of course, he something,
then of course everybody cameagainst him.
He's like I ain't telling younothing but the word of God with
.
And it's like I'm I'm givingyou the word on you and I'm
holding the denominational value.
I'm holding that, I'm a setaside the denominational bylaws
(43:05):
and I'm just going to give youthe straight word.
Speaker 2 (43:08):
And a lot of people can't handle the straight word
and I'm just going to give youthe straight word, and a lot of
people can't handle the straightword.
Well, and if you have issuewith that, if you have issue
with him doing it, where's yourcounter-biblical argument?
Where is it?
And let's check it.
Speaker 1 (43:22):
It shouldn't be one.
Speaker 2 (43:28):
When we let people like pick a little piece that
fits their agenda and we don'tlook at it in the entirety of
the Bible.
You know, that's where youreally, I think all of us need
to challenge ourselves.
You know, are you beingdissuaded by one?
You know?
I mean, let's look at what wasthe thing we talked about with
food.
Was it not grits?
It was greens or something.
(43:49):
I was talking about black foodthat I didn't get, and what was
that, bro?
uh, collard greens yeah I thinkit was collard greens and I was
like I don't see how anyonecould like that.
They're weeds, aren't they?
I mean kind of thing.
And you start telling me abouthow that was prepared by what
wasn't your grandma.
Or there's a recipe and youstart telling me about how she
(44:10):
prepared it and what happened.
And I'm like I got to try that,so, and that's, I think, kind
of what happens with some ofthis.
You know, christian framing, theChristian frame of reference
okay, is that we pick ourexperience with something and we
translate it into all of it.
(44:31):
We try to take our experienceand make it the entirety of what
there is.
So when I hear someone thatsays I'm firmly Trump, whatever,
I'm not saying you idiot, whatthe hell you know, which is what
a lot of the libertards and theMaggites do right, I want to
say that's really interesting.
Why do you feel that?
Why do you think that that'strue?
(44:53):
I mean, have you consideredthat there's this too?
Because there is always alarger picture that is not being
discussed, because we wantpeople to stay on our side of
the agenda.
We want people to contribute,to give us the power to move the
needle.
Speaker 1 (45:09):
I'm asking you again Christian church.
Speaker 2 (45:11):
I'm asking you again what needle are you moving?
Are you moving some politicalfigure's needle, or are you
truly moving the needle of theHoly Spirit, of the Word of God?
Show me, show me which oneyou're doing.
Speaker 1 (45:28):
Show me, show me which one you're doing.
And the thing is in theunderlying principle of the
Bible.
You know, of course, our Lordand Savior Jesus.
But what?
What are we called to do?
Love people.
And if people can start toreally love people, it would
(45:49):
limit a lot of the things thatwe are facing right now the
discrimination, the exclusion,all these different things, the
inequities, the inequalities,all these things.
Speaker 2 (46:10):
If we love people, if we can just simply get to that
part of, even if we can justhold on to that part of the
message of the Bible love people.
Speaker 1 (46:13):
I just will start to be in a much better place.
Speaker 2 (46:15):
I'm looking up a song that I can't remember who the
artist is.
I want to see if I can find it,but the verse of it is
consistently love God to lovepeople, love God to love people.
I want to find that.
Love God to love people.
I want to find that.
So if there's anyone else herethat's listening, that wants to
hear what I think has to be oursort of our preeminent calling,
(46:43):
oh, I hear what I can Wellremember.
Speaker 1 (46:45):
I think you mentioned a book in 1 John, but 1 John 4,
right, right 4, 20 and 21.
If anyone says I love God andhates his brother, he is a liar.
For he who does not love hisbrother, whom he has seen, how
can he love God whom he has notseen?
Yep, and this commandment wehave from him, that he who loves
(47:07):
God must love his brother, alsoRight.
So if you say you love God, yougot to love me.
You can't say you love God andhate me.
Speaker 2 (47:16):
So it's Love God, love People, by Danny Gokey,
which makes complete sense.
Danny Gokey's from Milwaukee.
Come on, man, milwaukee.
Or as we say in Milwaukee,milwaukee.
It's a two-syllable word, okay,milwaukee, milwaukee.
So I got to take that middlesyllable.
It's an extraneous syllable,anyways, right.
So, dude, here we are.
It's been like 50 minutes orsomething.
(47:36):
We warned people, though.
It's part one, okay, of thestate of our nation, but I want
to get you out of that chair,because I know my brother.
Don't worry about that, Well youjust had some surgery, man.
There's no sense in making yousuffer.
Speaker 1 (47:54):
We're all going to suffer.
I get it, but making you?
Speaker 2 (47:57):
suffer when we can keep talking.
We don't have to just get itall done today, darn it, you
know right.
So you've been listening toFrame of Reference coming
together and I tell you that'swhat we could do as a country.
Stop polarizing, start comingtogether, coming together under
the oh, started playing.
(48:21):
So that can be, that can be our.
Our rallying cry, right, is todo do everything we can to come
together.
Love God, to love people.
Why not?
The alternative is pretty ugly.
So, bro, see you next week, Ihope.
Speaker 1 (48:43):
Absolutely Okay.
Speaker 2 (48:45):
And what's your name?
Again, I forget.
Speaker 1 (48:48):
Antoine Haldeman.
Speaker 2 (48:49):
Sr Antoine.
We got to find out about thatname too.
We can talk about our namesometime and how we got named,
what we got named.
That would be a good thing.
So but and we're Frame ofReference coming together, like
I said, hope you all have gottensomething out of this, hope you
can maybe let your neighbors or, you know, friends of yours
know hey, listen to these guys,think about what they're saying,
(49:12):
you know, because what's thesense if you're not going to get
the word out of who JesusChrist really is right?
So, and at least think about it, even if you're not, you know,
a quote-unquote Christian.
You love people.
Here you go, there you go, seeyou, dude, behave.
All right man.
(49:32):
If you can't behave, be careful.
Get my best for the wife andwe'll talk more next time.
Speaker 1 (49:38):
Absolutely, and you do the same man the road that
keeps breaking.
But if we wanna find a way tochange it, it all comes down to
this.
Speaker 2 (49:53):
Love God and love people, cause love is patient,
love is kind, rescues hearts andchanges lives.
Love is all we need to makethings right.
Gotta, keep it real simple.
(50:14):
Yeah, it's really so simple.
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