Empathy and Understanding Across Time

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What can we learn from the bond between humans and dogs? Discover how the loving relationships we share with our pets can teach us about unity, cooperation, and understanding in our own communities. Join us as Rauel and Antowan lead a conversation on transcending unnecessary conflicts and tensions, focusing on the power of love and mutual support to achieve remarkable success. With Black History Month as a backdrop, we reflect on the pivotal lessons history imparts and how such insights can help us build a more harmonious future.

Unpacking the complexities of racial dynamics and job market inequalities, we challenge the myth that diversity initiatives result in job losses for white individuals. Our discussion underscores the crucial role of Black Americans throughout history, celebrating their contributions and recognizing the ongoing struggle against historical suppression. The painful legacy of slavery and its persistent impact on society is highlighted, along with the importance of education and awareness to foster a just and equitable world.

Reflecting on the harrowing story of Emmett Till, we confront the enduring issues of racism and historical injustices. Through examining events like the Emmett Till case and cultural pieces such as Billie Holiday's "Strange Fruit," we delve into the roots of systemic racism and the need for society to acknowledge and learn from past atrocities. As we celebrate Black History Month, we urge listeners to engage in meaningful dialogue that honors the resilience and achievements of Black individuals, and to commit to creating a better future through understanding and empathy.

Thanks for listening. Please check out our website at www.forsauk.com to hear great conversations on topics that need to be talked about. In these times of intense polarization we all need to find time to expand our Frame of Reference.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Let's have it.

Speaker 2 (00:01):
Well, welcome everybody.
It's a Saturday morning here inthe late part of February and
I'm Raul LaBrush.
That's Raul like Raul LaBrush,like Fresh, get it right.
Because I have people regularlywhen I say my name is Raul and
they oh, like Raul.
And I'm like, did you listen towhat I just said?

(00:22):
It's Raul like growl.
Now get it right or I will biteyour ear.
You know I would never biteanyone's ear, well, maybe my
wife's, but anyways, and you are, sir.

Speaker 1 (00:36):
Antoine Hallman Sr.

Speaker 2 (00:38):
And do you bite ears by chance?
I'm just wondering Say that onemore time.
Do you bite ears by chance?

Speaker 1 (00:45):
No, we don't bite ears by chance.
No, we don't bite ears.
Man Don't bite ears.
Well, actually, god's word willbite an ear.

Speaker 2 (00:53):
I'll say that yeah, just like are you listening to
me.
Here comes the two by four.
Boom yeah yeah, I'll bite yourear with this two by smacking
the side of the head, butanyways, well, and this is, if
you don't know already, this isFrame of Reference.
Coming together, my good friendAntoine and I started this gosh

(01:15):
.
We're coming up on two years, Ithink now.
Yeah, no man Phenomenal when youthink about how time flies,
when you're having a good timeand we're all about just like.
I keep telling people.
Maybe it sounds straight orstupid, but you know, I'm just
kind of a regular old white guycoming up on 65.
And I don't know if you'reregular or not.

(01:36):
I don't know if that's fair tosay about you, antoine.
Your life is like anything butregular, I think.
But you know, you're not likesome fancy dancy, whatever,
you're just Antoine, right.

Speaker 1 (01:47):
Yeah, just a regular dude man that, uh, loves God and
love people and, uh, of course,you know, uh, when we talk
about, you know, moving to meetthe needs of people, uh, people
are going to people.
So that mean, it's just, it'scomical, is, is, is, it's just,
it's, it's funny, man.
But at the same time, you know,I love what we do as a ministry

(02:08):
and, just again, loving God,loving people, man, and just
learning from the lessons thatwe encounter, you know, because
that's, at the end of the day,that's what history and
understanding is all aboutLearning from mistakes, being
able to share testimonies, beingable to change the trajectory
of people's lives, man, that'swhat it's all about, yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:29):
And I started watching this documentary and I
got to finish it up but it'scalled the Mind of a Dog and I
thought, well, you know, I'vegot dogs, I love dogs, I've had
dogs for a long, long time.
So I just want to kind of seewhat this is all about.
And I started watching it andone of the points the guy made

(02:50):
that I thought was sofascinating is that part of what
makes dogs so successful as aspecies is because they figured
out that if they help us, wehelp them.
And so there's been like one ofthe things they pointed to was,
in fact, pointing that you cantake two cups and put food or a
treat under one of the cups,move them around like the shill
game or shell game, and thenpoint to the one that the treat

(03:12):
is under and the dog will go tothat cup, where it's like even
monkeys don't get the wholepointing thing that you're
trying to help them.
They just kind of do whatever,whatever.
But a dog actually has figuredout that we're helping them
because they help us and thatsymbiotic thing going on is why
we're both so successful and whywe're so connected to one

(03:33):
another.
And I thought you know what?
That's what people need to doLearn that helping one another
is so much more powerful interms of the success and the
furtherance and development of aspecies, you know, or a group,
than it will ever be to attackand denigrate and, you know,
just try to decimate someonethat opposes you in any way.

(03:55):
I mean, and especially whenyou're like looking for
opposition.
I mean I feel like we're aculture, a nation right now,
like looking to pick a fight.
For God's sakes, we're going toput a 25% tariff on Canada.
I mean, it's like putting a 25%tariff on golden retrievers.
For God's sakes, canada and NShave been so loyal and intimate

(04:16):
and connected to one another andmutually successful and then to
use that as a bargaining yeah,yeah, give it to those canucks.
What is going on here?

Speaker 1 (04:29):
So it's, it's just, it's funny, man, you know, of
course.
You know, one of my talkingpoints in this love message is
like can we as human beingslearn, at least try to love
another human being as much asyou love your favorite animal?
And of course, but people, theycan choose, uh, what they
choose to give to, what theychoose to love, what they choose

(04:51):
to, even uh, botherunderstanding.
You know, a lot of us and a lotof people are are sucked up
into their own little uh newsbubble or even their own
narrative that they're trying tocreate.
And of course, uh, you know, wetalk about narrative create.
And of course, you know, whenwe talk about narrative creation
, you know, of course, like youknow, like saying, sticking it
to Canada fans, this man, a lotof our resources come from
Canada.

(05:11):
Aluminum and some irons andsteels and things like that come
from them.
And so it's like, why would you, like you say, bite the hand
that's trying to help you, butat the same time, it's like you
know, again, it's just we talkabout like saying, we talk,
we're in black history month,right, right, you know, we talk
about no course and we talk, weain't just trying to celebrate.
You know the struggle and thepain, but we also celebrate the

(05:35):
uh, brilliance and creativityand innovation of black people.
And it's like we tend to knowlike that, those things that
black people have done.
They tend to be marginalized,but what we're starting to see
now people are it's almost likethis attempt at changing the
narrative and going into theself marginalization you know,

(05:58):
like you know trying to say, oh,we're going to be the smaller
people, we're going to the wayof Americans, as we know, it is
going away, this, that and theother, and they create these
narratives that try to almostmarginalize themselves.
And if we see, but you see,this narrative that's being
flashed out and being created,like we were talking before we

(06:18):
came live man, about how, youknow, the young white male is
kind of get grabbed by the neckinto a lot of things that they
may not yet fully understand, orjust a narrative that's being
created and instilled in theiryoung minds that, you know,
equity, justice, you know thesethings are not important or that
they are a supreme or superiorbeing to people of other

(06:43):
nationalities and races.
And this is where we have tojust remind people, man, that we
are all in this thing togetherand, of course, america is
creating this thing and it's sad, you know.
We see, like the closing of theborder or the attempted closing
of the border, deportation as anexample, you know, of course
and this is what I was saying asecond ago where we have to come

(07:06):
out of our own news bubbles tounderstand what get the full
context, the full picture.
Because, just as they are, like, say, as this administration is
trying to deport LatinAmericans, right, latino
Americans, this is what they'vedone.
They've actually.
Are you familiar with what theyare doing with white South

(07:28):
Africans?
No, they're saying that whiteSouth Africans are being
persecuted, threatened, and sothey're giving these people
amnesty, they're giving thesepeople refugee status, people
refugee status.
No, these are Elon Musk people,right?
And it's funny how it's like wegoing to close the border,

(07:53):
except for this group of people.
So, basically, they're invitingwhite South Africans to come to
the country but, at the sametime, excluding other races.
And if we don't come out of ourown little news bubbles to grasp
the full context of what'sgoing on, we could easily be
persuaded one way or another.
You know, of course, again, likeyou know, just like you know
how we say like, uh, you knowracism, and then there's the

(08:15):
reverse racism right and and how, and if we're not careful, we
don't get the full context, thefull picture picture.
We'll be operating under afalse narrative and we'll lose
years of our life hating otherpeople, walking around and
missing disinformation.

(08:35):
And this is where we just, man,we really need to get people to
understand the gravity of thiscurrent time and people need to
really understand the importanceof this current time.
And people need to reallyunderstand the importance of
this time.
I know, like we're in february,we're black history month, man,
you know, uh, you know, peoplejust need to understand that
it's more than just a calendarobservance, so to speak, but

(08:58):
it's a celebration of resilience, innovation and the endurance
spirit of a people man, you know, that has often been
marginalized, you know.
So, man, it's just we come outof our bubbles and get the full
picture.
That'll be the beginning ofbeginning of the understanding
man.

Speaker 2 (09:18):
Yeah, you know there's so that so polarizing
when it doesn't need to bepolarizing.
I guess, um, I mean, we weretalking a little bit before we
we went on here that, um, blackhistory month.
I know, like in circles thatI'm in, you know, some of the

(09:41):
working class white white guys Iwork with, I've heard comments
like you know, why do we have tohave a black history month?
Why do we have to have a BlackHistory Month?
Why do we have to have women'sblah, blah, blah?
When's going to be the whiteman's history?
Or, you know, white historymonth?
And it's always.
It's so just ignorant, I guess,and so biased against

(10:03):
recognizing that.
Dude, like, every month isWhite History Month, you know.
I mean, we just, you know,regularly celebrate look at what
us white people did, you know,and we don't think about you
know how that happened.
It's almost like we're a nationof salesmen.
You know salesmen in mostcompanies bring in most of the
revenue that a company has.

(10:23):
You know there may be all otherkinds of support.
You know agencies or supportgroup people, you know the
accounting folks or the it folksor whatever that are supporting
them.
But the sales guys are bringingin the money, you know.
So they have this, you know,thing of like well, we bring in
all the money and I just want tokind of step back and say, well
, but that's your job, know,that's what you're supposed to

(10:45):
do.
So that kind of simplerecognition about this isn't
something special, you know,it's just, it's what you do,
it's what you're good at.
And we, as white people, wantto constantly think that we're
special in some way and thatwhen someone else you, you know,
a person of color wants tocelebrate or have an opportunity

(11:07):
to teach, and you know, justreflect on the, the people
within their nature, their,their race, you know which I?
I honestly don't even like theword race anymore, because it's
like if we're all the human raceand we got to figure out a way
to celebrate diversity withoutbeing threatened by it, to
celebrate the inclusion ofanybody and everybody who wants

(11:31):
to be included instead of beingthreatened by it.
So all of this attack on DEI,which is more than just people
of color folks.
Dei was set up to help thedisabled.
Dei was set up to be inclusivefor women.
Dei was set up to be inclusivefor all sorts of people that had
been marginalized and will nowagain be marginalized and not

(11:54):
have equal footing with whiteguys.
And you know all this nonsenseabout.
You know well, you know whiteguys aren't getting jobs because
you know they're just choosingthese other people because you
know they're black or they're.
You know white guys aren'tgetting jobs because you know
they're just choosing theseother people because you know
they're black or they're.
You know because they're, youknow, deficient in some way.
It's like no, that's not how itworks.
You know you're saying stupidstuff without even understanding

(12:17):
how the hiring process works.
What it's really about is, ifthere are two people of equal
opportunity or equal ability,skill level or even you know a
better skill level, that theperson that has that better
skill level is going to have theopportunity for the job.
You shouldn't have to say youknow well, you're going to get

(12:38):
this job because you're white.
Nor should you be saying you'regoing to get this job because
you're black or you're a womanor you're gay.
That's not the point.
The point is to have everybodyon an equal playing field so
that it doesn't matter whetheryou're black or you're gay or
whatever.
You're just going to be thebest person for the job.
And the reality is we have.
We've got to face up to thefolk that, as white folks in

(13:01):
America, we have had theadvantage for way, way too long.
We have gotten jobs becausewe're white.
And if you don't believe that,if you don't understand that,
open up some history books andlook at the 40s and the 50s in
this country, because that'srecent enough to say, you know,
that was my mom and my dad orsomething right.
It's such a weird thing that awhile back I learned about black

(13:26):
, some black history.
I, you know, I'm by far not anexpert in it, but just realizing
the African continent and the,the, the culture that was there,
that black people were juststolen from, that were just
kidnapped from, and can youimagine anybody out there?
That's why can you imaginebeing out at the grocery store

(13:47):
or the mall or whatever, andthen all of a sudden, somebody
just shows up and just takes you.
You know, because you look likeyou're a strong, strapping
young lad or whatever, we'regoing to take you because we
need help at our whatever.
And they take you, you know,thousands of miles away, in a,
in a vessel that you can'tpossibly even imagine having
access to, and they just put youto work.

(14:08):
And now you're here, this is it.
I mean, think about it that interms of what that was.
And then these weren't justpeople that were sitting around
in you know, I don't know, somehovel somewhere, or you know
just, you know doing nothing butyou know, sitting around and
picking their nails and whatever.
These were people with a rich,vibrant culture.

(14:29):
These were people with families, with kids that they probably
never saw again.
You know, these were peoplethat were, you know, living
lives that were meaningful,living lives that were
meaningful, and we just pulledit off.
Now, you know, know, we don'thave to just focus on that, but
then, in spite of that, in spiteof that history, look at what

(14:51):
black people have accomplishedin this country.
Look at, you know, look at the,the sports figures that you
idolize.
Look at the, the entertainersthat you, you idolize.
Look at the people that, ingeneral, are really seriously
successful, brilliant people,watch, hidden Figures.
If you want to know theincredible intelligence of some

(15:12):
of these people, were theyintelligent because they were
black?
No, but they were intelligentand did significant things and
they were black.
That's part, you know, we'renot.
That's part of the problem.
As white people, we try to say,well, we're really good because
we're white.
I mean, white is somehow betterthan black.

(15:32):
No, no, it's not.
It's just not.
I'm sorry, go ahead.

Speaker 1 (15:40):
I'm sorry, I'm out of the soapbox.
I can't.
No, no, brother, and you madesome great points, man, Again,
because again we really have toconfront the attempt of changing
the narrative of the country.
Man, you know, of course, whenwe talk about black history,
what blacks have done in theshaping of America, man, that

(16:00):
the accomplishments andachievements of black people are
trying to be minimalized, man,that the accomplishments and
achievements of black people aretrying to be minimalized, man,
they're being minimalized.
That way you can kind of almostlike you minimalize, minimalize
the history.
And then, of course, you say,oh, slavery, people, they wanted
to be a slave.
No, we didn't.
You know.
Then it's like you know, right,you know the all these
different things that have somuch better off as slaves.

Speaker 2 (16:23):
You know, there's so much.

Speaker 1 (16:26):
And of course, of course it's not.
When we talk about blackhistory and those things, it
ain't just about celebrating thepainful struggle and all those
things, but, yes, it's aboutcelebrating the brilliance, man,
the contributions of blackAmerica in black Americans, in
arts, man, uh, science, allthese different things.

(16:46):
There are so many things thatblack people have done to
actually, you know, shape theAmerican culture that people
want to erase.
Man, they simply want to eraseand, of course, but we got to
understand and we have to fightand know that of course we have
to call these things out so thatthere's an understanding of our
past.
For we have to call thesethings out so that there's an
understanding of our past.

(17:06):
We have to understand our pastbetter to live a life that's
going to be more equitable,that's going to have more
justice, that's going to havemore empowerment.
We have to continue to educateand just make people aware that,
hey, this is not a one-sidedthing, but it's a both sides.
Of course, america's wealth wasbuilt on the free labor of

(17:28):
black people and but, again,people want to erase that, you
know.
They want to take it out of thetextbooks, they want to take it
out of all the popularnarratives, you know, and of
course it's just we have tofight to maintain a history so
like, and then you know likeit's to see how the reverse
happens.
It's like where we simply try topoint out the achievements and,

(17:51):
uh, innovations of in this andjust basically the pain and
struggles of what black peoplehave done and everything that
has happened in the course ofthis country.
You know, it's like when wepoint these things out, it's
like, oh, you're trying to guilttrip us, and it's like, no,
we're not things out.
It's like, oh, you're trying toguilt trip us, and it's like,
no, we're not trying to guilttrip you.
It's simply that, hey, we aretrying to just let's get the

(18:13):
facts straight on why thesystemic and systematic things
that are happening in all thevarious institutions as far as
education, medical, criminaljustice, economic why these
things happen, and let's talkabout the unfair advantage that
has been given.
But now let's talk about howcan we make things more

(18:33):
equitable, of course, rememberwe were talking about this
before.
What you do?
You minimize the history of apeople, you marginalize them,
you create laws against them andthen you agitate them into
breaking that law so you canthrow them in jail, just like
when slavery was abolished,right, you know of course what
they do.
They created some laws.

(18:53):
Hey, you got caught jaywalking.
You ended up on a chain gamefor 10 years If you, if you, if
they thought you were looking ata white woman, you got thrown
in jail for X amount of years.
So it's just like all thesesystemic and systematic things
that have continuously happenedover the course of this history.
We point them out and then youget guilt tripped or they want

(19:14):
to say it's reverse racism.
Because you're pointing thesethings out and again, you know
and it's not about Not guiltinganyone into anything is just
acknowledging the fact thatblack people, brown people, all
people of color, have all, havecontributed to the economic
growth of this country, but theeconomic gains have not been

(19:35):
equally dispersed, so to speak.
And so it's like, when we pointthese things out, you know, you
know we talk about.
You know a lot of inventionsthat black people have created.
You know we talk about.
You know a lot of inventionsthat black people have created.
They'll never get recognitionfor them because they just
happen to be the assistant inthe lab that put the thing in
place to make the light bulbwork, or you know, I mean it's

(20:07):
so's and things like that thattalked about the abolition of
slavery and all those differentthings and stood up for women's
rights A lot of these thingsthat black people fight for.
It ain't even just for blackpeople, it's for everybody.
The Civil Rights Act includedwomen, not just black women, but
all women.
Again, it's like we could neverjust fight for ourselves.

(20:30):
We had to.
It always has to be acollective in order to get a
small piece of what you'veearned.
You know and you know, and thisis where we have to just really
give clarity and understandingeducation.
That way, these falsenarratives are crushed.

Speaker 2 (20:56):
You talked about.
You know you try and make usfeel guilty in and that I know
that is a prevalent thing andthat I know that is a prevalent
thing we would rather not, youknow, as white folk.
It is an inconvenient truth tohave to face what white people
have done.
What I had to do and check meon this, brother, if I'm wrong

(21:17):
what I had to do was to get pastthat of feeling like people
were trying to make me feelguilty and think about how
horrible this is, that peoplecan do this to people, and to me
that was kind of like the keyto open up the whole door of
compassion and just profoundsorrow over what you know, that

(21:42):
old thing, man's inhumanity toman right, and one of the
stories that just kicked me inthe head and made me recognize
just the depths of the evil Itranslate it to there's a
scripture in Jeremiah 17.8.
It says the heart.
The heart, not black hearts,white hearts.
The heart is deceitful, aboveall things, and desperately

(22:09):
wicked.
Who can know it?
Desperately wicked.
When I think of desperatelywicked, it's like you know, our
heart is so wicked that it'slike hanging on to the edge of a
cliff by its fingernails going.
No, no, I'm not going to giveit now, give it now.
Or the like gaffy duck with allthe you know gold one, you know

(22:29):
, get away, get away, you know.
But then I, one of the things Iran across when I, when I went
through, uh, black history month, the justified anger class this
year in madison, was the storyof emmett till.
And if you guys don't know,anyone listening, don't know
about Emmett Till, look it up,because it is an incredible

(22:53):
story of what life has been likefor black people in our country
up until very recent time.
And just a real quick synopsisEmmett Till was a 14-year-old
kid.
He was abducted.
He had been, I believe, inChicago and went down visiting

(23:13):
some family or whatnot inMississippi in 1955.
He was accused of offending awhite woman, a Carolyn Bryant,
in her family's grocery store.
As I remember, he was accusedof whistling at her.
Okay, and it was, you know.
She told this story to otherpeople and later on in life it

(23:37):
actually came out that thatreally hadn't happened.
But anyways, she accused thatand he was kidnapped.
He was hung, he was, I believe,set on fire.
I mean there's just horriblemutilation of this kid who had

(23:58):
done nothing wrong, absolutelynothing wrong, except be in
Mississippi that day, and thattime was essentially what killed
him, if you will, and then justthe nature of human beings.
But the most remarkable thingabout that in my brain was when
they finally found him, he wasso badly decomposed there are
pictures of him in his casketthat it's barely recognizable as

(24:20):
a human being, that it's barelyrecognizable as a human being.
He had been so horriblydisfigured by all the things
that they did to not just killthe kid but to decimate him and
his mother.
His mother made the decisionthat she wanted his funeral to
be an open casket because shewanted people to see clearly

(24:43):
what had happened, what had beendone to her son.
And I was already, like, mindblown by the profundity of the
hatred and cruelty andwickedness of that act.
And not forget the fact that itwas white guys.
Okay, forget the fact that itwas white guys.
Okay, those were people thatdid this to a young man who they

(25:08):
had no evidence really, besidessome woman, that maybe she had
a bad day or she doesn't likethe look of him or she doesn't
like black kids or something.
So she makes a statement andtriggers a fire, triggers a fire
immediately.
That resulted in that.
Not only is that an incredibletestimony to the wickedness of
people, people okay, forgetabout the white, black people A

(25:32):
bunch of guys did that toanother person, okay.
But then the mom a loving mom,a mom who's raised that kid
since a little baby, loving mom,a mom who's raised that kid
since a little baby, you knowmakes a decision that her poor,
precious little kid, who was 14and had his whole life ahead of

(25:54):
him, instead of wanting to justremember him as he was or you
know, try to celebrate what hewas and you know what a sweet
kid he was.
Because all you, because alltales of him, all stories of him
, he was a really nice kid.
She chose to have everyone seehim as what he had become as a

(26:14):
result of all that hate.
He was like a beacon.
This is hate, this is anger,this is what we are, what we
have become, and that wasprofoundly important.
In kind of one of the festeringthings to get the civil rights
movement going was we had to.
Enough of us white folk gotwoke.

(26:37):
There's another.
Let's get people really goingwith words that they hate right
now.
That got enough of us going torealize that.
Oh my God, oh my God, oh my Lord, how could anyone do that to
anyone?
How I can't even look.
I mean most people.
You see the lines of peoplecoming through that funeral and
looking, and you know women arejust like breaking down, you

(27:00):
know, and just like sobbing.
And you know a lot of them arejust they can't, they like take
one glance and they have to lookaway because it was so awful.
And you know a lot of the menare walking by and looking and
just like thinking about theirown stuff that's going on in
their lives.
And you know, you know what'sit going to take, lord, you know
I, I'm, I.
If that was a, a white kid, II've shuddered to think, you

(27:21):
know they would have been armingup with every rifle and gun and
just marching on down to everywhite person indiscriminately,
just shooting them.
You know, I mean why.
You know that's the kind ofanger Right, and I sometimes
think honestly that that's partof this whole equation is that
white people don't want blackhistory to happen, because they

(27:42):
really they want to just keep itdown happen, because they
really they want to just keep itdown and they're, they're, I
think they're really afraidultimately that black folks are
going to one day wake up andreally it's going to be like the
black panthers on steroids, youknow, and they're just going to
have to.
You better run for the hills,because they're just taking you.
They're not going to ask anyquestions whatsoever.
If you're white, you're dead.
Um, you know, and I have a hardtime saying don't do it.

(28:05):
Don't do it, antoine, don't doit, please, don't do that.
I'm a poor white guy, you know.
But it's totally understandable, because look at what we do to
each other.
So do we want to go there, folks, america, world?
Do we want to go there andcontinue that madness, or do we
want to do something, make someinches forward in the process

(28:26):
that DEI gave us a chance to do?
No, we're now taking.
Lgbtq has just been shortenednow to LGB, so any government
site that has anything to dowith government agencies and
employment, they can have LGB,but TQ plus have to all go away.
Now those have just been takenoff because there are too many

(28:47):
letters.
So what are we doing with blacks?
We're now saying that you can'tcelebrate Black History Month
If you're in any kind ofgovernment or military agency.
We can't have any of thosecelebrations that celebrate
groups of people based on color,you know whatever.
And I don't know.
It's like if we would just stopall this nonsense and say look

(29:10):
at what people do to people.
Is this okay?
Is this okay?
Is this who we want to be?
Or do we believe?
Are we willing to put our moneywhere our mouth is, put our
noses to the grindstone and say,no, we can.
We must be better, becauseotherwise you might as well just
push the button now, folks,nato, give in.

(29:33):
You know, just launch themissiles and your submarines,
get them going, let's just takeit all out.
And you know, the next war canbe fought, after that one, with
sticks and stones.
And you know whatever.
Maybe we'll have a chance toget it right next time, or maybe
we'll just wipe out humancivilization.
And if this is all we can be, Imean, that's not such a bad

(29:54):
thing, because I'm ready to comeLord, I'm ready for the great
beyond, because we can't learnif we can't, if we're not
willing to learn.
Man.

Speaker 1 (30:11):
Man, yeah, sorry about we're not willing to learn
man.
Man, yeah, sorry about that Igot.
No, no, it's all good, brother,man, I, I love it.
Man and and you know, when youwere talking about the story
emmett till, you know, course ofpeople, uh, and again, those
are the very stories that youknow some people don't want told
because, uh, let's just be.
You know 100 with it.
You know that thing had beengoing on long before emmett till
.
It just took a woman from ablack woman from chicago that

(30:33):
wanted justice for her child.
You know, just think about thepeople that were living in that
area.
How many times has it happened?
You think about, you know, like, say, billy holiday's song,
strange fruit.
They were like, oh, you can'tplay this, you can't.
You know, talk about blackpeople hanging from trees.
You know, you walk down a roadand all that's all you.
You drive down a road andthat's all you saw was black
people hanging from trees.

(30:54):
You couldn't sing about that,you know.
And it's just like those thingsare, like they're trying to be
minimalized and whitewashed andand and again it's like's like
when we talk about theprejudices of that time again,
the brutal reality of slavery,the brutal reality of the

(31:17):
suppression of people's voices,the oppression of people as a
Black people as a whole knowthey don't want that narrative
told and you know, of course, no, like we got all these?
Uh, you know we have to.
Yes, there's a racism in allthe educational structures,
health care, uh, criminaljustice, economic structure, but

(31:37):
the cultural part of things.
That's why they continuouslytry to some white people.
They continuously try to somewhite people.
They continuously try todistort history and that way
they can continually perpetuatethe reason for their.
They say, oh, they're not equalto us because they don't learn

(31:57):
as much, they don't do this aswell, not knowing, when you take
the whole thing in a wholehistorical context, that black
people weren't allowed to learnhow to read.
To a certain point people hadto sneak to learn how to read,
you know, and it's like thosekinds of things like, of course,
um, they say, oh, our brains,uh, don't act, operate the same

(32:18):
as a white brain, a white malebrain, and uh, oh, like, uh, we
see this stuff.
When the wildfires and thingslike that was uh, breaking off,
you know they were like it.
It takes a white male If youwant something done right, it
takes a white male to do it.
And then again it's just thosethings that they're implanting
in the young white male mind.
No, just again, justperpetuating the white supremacy

(32:40):
man.
And but we got to kill it atits roots, at the institutional
roots, at the cultural roots.
And just again because when youminimize the achievements and
accomplishments of black people,you can just continuously try
to rationalize thediscrimination that's currently
taking place.
You know, of course, in thisthing has been going on since

(33:00):
long before Emmett Till.
But again, they call peoplewoke.
Because you know, like, say ayoung white male, young white
female says you know what?
I want to learn history, I wantto get a better understanding
of how things work.
You know, of course, like, sayme being a black male talking to
you as a older white male, well, you and I have conversation.

(33:22):
I love when you say you knowwhat, I'm going to go check that
out, I'm going gonna go lookthat up.
And that's what is being, thatis what's happening right now.
You know, like, say, these youngblack men and women, or like in
our age range or whatever, aretalking to young white men and
young white men and women saying, hey, this is what has happened
, go look this stuff up foryourself.

(33:43):
And so now the young white maleand young white female are
saying you know what?
Wow, this was wrong.
So you mean to tell me that myno pop pop, my great grandpop,
was actually a part of this, orwhatever the case may be.
And the thing is and again,it's not to guilt, is to bring
to light.
And then, that way, when webring the thing to light because

(34:05):
it ain't about guilting, it'snot about you know all of these,
it's just, hey, we need tobring those things to the
forefront.
So there's a betterunderstanding of how we came to
this inequitable situation.
And now it's like OK, now thatwe acknowledge that there was a
redlining and housingdiscrimination, racial
discrimination, votersuppression, all these different
kinds of things that weretaking place over the course of

(34:27):
history.
Now, okay, now that weunderstand these things, how can
we change them?
But now, as the young whitefemale, young white male starts
to stand up and come into aplace of allyship, they want to
actually guilt them into sayingwhat's wrong with you?
Why are you sticking with thosefolks?
It's like I'll give you anexample.
You know, in in, uh, in, no, weas a ministry, a young white

(34:52):
lady, uh, probably in her uh midtwenties a couple of years ago,
came to my wife and I.
She was like hey, we, we lovehow y'all preach, we love that
y'all teach the word of God, youknow, in its simplicity but in
its wholeness.
And she was like butunfortunately I can't come to
y'all church because my granddadwill cut me off.

Speaker 2 (35:11):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (35:12):
And but.
But do you see that?
That?
That's the noose around theyoung white person's neck is
like, hey, I don't want to losemy inheritance If I say granddad
is wrong in his way ofthinking'll get cut off, and
that's that is, uh, keepingpeople under the thumb, keeping
history under the thumb, keeping, uh, those I'll use the word

(35:33):
woke we want to keep woke peopleunder the thumb.
But also you keep black peopleas a whole under the thumb by
just again, continuously, theminimalization and, uh, just the
, the exclusion and all thesedifferent things of black
culture, or even thecontribution to what black
people have done to Americansociety as a whole.

(35:56):
You minimalize it and then yousay, hey, there's no reason for
them, and that's why we see thiserasure campaign coming forth.
So, you know, it's just reallyjust bringing things to light.
That's what Black History Monthis all about, man.
It's not necessarily about just, you know, talking about the
pain and the struggle, man, butit's also about celebrating the
brilliance, the creativity, theinnovation and, you know,

(36:19):
celebrating what has been doneby Black people in science,
education, you know, politics,all these different things, just
trying to crush the narrativesof what has been going on over
the centuries, man, you know wehave to go back to.
Like, when we talk about BlackHistory Month, you know we got
to go back to the origin of it,you know.
You know Carter Woodson, youknow, in the 1920s and 30s he

(36:40):
was like, hey, you know, we needto dedicate time to the study
of the rich and often suppressedhistory of African-Americans.
So it started out as a NegroHistory Week, yeah, and then.
But it was expanded to a monthlong celebration, man reclaiming
history, man, you know, and itwas just a way to counteract
centuries of exclusion and justkind of the reformation that

(37:03):
black Americansicans are notjust, we're not just in the side
view of things, but we havebeen mainstream since, ben, I
mean far as, again, the buildingof wealth by the free labor on
our backs, to evenaccomplishments in science and
medicine and all these differentthings, and so it's just, uh,
again, they want a lot of peoplewant to wipe the history out.

(37:25):
They want to, they want to wipehistory clean.
And then, of course now, ofcourse, like I know, when you
and I talk, I just say it outloud, no, it's like I know this
pastor.
His name is John Bevere.
He made a historic teaching on,called the bait of Satan.
And of course, basically in oneof his teachings, one of the
lessons, he says the church isunder attack by the church.

(37:49):
And so we see that present day,because now you got, you know,
faith deconstruction.
People are literally walkingaway from faith because they're
saying, hey, they'd ratherfollow this president, because
they know that you can't say youlove God and hate people.
So they'd rather just say, youknow, I walk away from God so I
can justify my hate.
But also he was saying how, youknow, the church is under

(38:12):
attack by other, you know, bythe church.
And now we got this other group.
I don't know if you heard of it,but if you get a chance, read
up on these people, man.
They are some, they some.
It's called the New ApostolicReformation N-A-R.
And these people they aresaying they want to bring about
God's judgment by going againsthis very word.

(38:36):
They want to do things toactually perpetuate the Bible.
Coming into these suppressiveand oppressive tactics, things
that the Bible says goes againstthe knowledge of God.
No, he says righteousness andjustice is the foundation of my
throne, right?
So they want to createinjustices.
They want to do things that tipthe scales.

(38:59):
You know what God say.
Unbalanced scales are anabomination to me.
So it's just all these differentthings that are happening by
church people and there's, andthere are so many prominent
pastors in this country that areactually supporting this, and
then they it's like you try to.

(39:20):
Oh well, I don't support whathe does, but I love what.
I love his policy, and it'slike are you actually reading
this policy?
I think you need to come out ofyour news bubble and see
exactly what he's doing because,like right now, he has with
this, uh with the usa, with,with that being stripped away.
I don't think they understandthe importance of what they're

(39:41):
doing, but understanding that,hey, they shot off the farmers
in this country.
They are now looking.
If you go on, uh, some uhsocial media platforms, you have
these uh young white farmers,no, with gofundmes.
And they won't mention the factthey know where this thing came
from, but they won't.
They won't speak against itagain.

(40:02):
It's like remember how we weresaying people would rather just
suffer in silence and die ratherthan say they were wrong.
And that's where we are rightnow.
It's like a person refused tosay hey, I was wrong about my
way of thinking, I was wrong inmy vote, I was wrong in my
perception, I was wrong in myspeech, I was wrong in my
behavior.
But now I want to fix that.

(40:23):
But it's like the pride ofpeople and then, of course, the
pressure of other people withintheir groups saying like, no,
you are white, you are strong,you are no, you have privilege,
you have this, you have that.
And it's like with these youngwhite people they're saying I
don't see it that way, butthey're getting guilted or
threatened into certain ways toactually fall in line, and some

(40:46):
will fall in line, some willactually continue on with their
allyship.
But you know, at the end of theday, you know it's like we have
to include in the history, ithas to be put front and center
the, the, the.
We have the in front and center.

(41:07):
We have to include thenarratives.
We have the, the rightnarratives of all the
accomplishments and theinnovation and all these
different things, the creativity, the perseverance, and that way
we can gain a complete pictureof how society has been formed
and and when.
We can get to that point wherewe say you know what?
I'm gonna step out of myself,I'm gonna look through, I'm

(41:28):
gonna look at another humanbeing through the eyes of God,
or I'm going to look at another,I'm going to try to see things
from their point of view, or I'mgoing to put myself in their
shoes.
And when we get more and morepeople doing that thing, you
know, we understand thehistorical roots of, you know,
systematic and systemic andsystematic racism and oppression

(41:48):
, and it allows us to engagemore thoroughly in, you know,
contemplating solutions.
You know, and that's what that'swhere we are, man, uh, we have
to really just uh, you know, getto a point where we just say,
hey, you know what, uh, I waswrong, my, because even with you
and I, you know, it's like I'llsay, hey, my perception was

(42:10):
wrong, I was off, I was wrong.
You know what I'm saying.
And that's where we've got toget to the point of being.
And when we continuously openthe doors, like this podcast, I
strongly believe that thosewalls will come down.
Of course, a lot of people aresaying that, well, actually,
this is what I see with my owneyes.

(42:30):
This is again, this is my pointof view, antoine Hallman
senior's point of view.
Rather than give people equalrights, you'd rather burn this
whole thing down, this UnitedStates of America, experiment,
know experiment.
They'd rather burn it down thangive people what is due.

Speaker 2 (42:53):
Well, like what was said to Benjamin Franklin after
the Constitution had beenratified, I believe.
So early 1800s came out afterthe vote was had and was asked
on the street so are we amonarchy or a republic?
And he said a republic, if youcan keep it.
So there's a quote all the timewe've been talking about

(43:17):
history and there's a quote thatgets kind of misquoted quite a
bit, but it comes from a 1905book published by a man called
George Satanyana.
It's Spanish, I'm sorry, Idon't know, but the book was
called the Life of Reason, orthe Phases of Human Progress,

(43:39):
and the 12th chapter of thatbook there's a chapter named the
Flux and Constancy in HumanNature, and in that there is
this phrase those who cannotremember the past are condemned
to repeat it.
Those that cannot remember thepast are condemned to repeat it.

(44:05):
Think about that for a second.
We have different paraphrasesof that, and people think it's
Edmund Burke, sometimes peoplesay it's Winston Churchill.
But George Santanyana, from1905, came up with that idea.
And that's exactly what ishappening right now, when we try
to, you know, just deny thefact that there's, you know, an,
even a need for Black HistoryMonth, when we're pulling the

(44:27):
Constitution from thewhitehousegov website.
You know, even a need for BlackHistory Month when we're
pulling the Constitution fromthe whitehousegov website, you
know, and who knows where elseit'll get pulled from.
You know, but the more that we,you know, indoctrinate people
and get them to just forgetabout that stuff, that's not
important.
What's important is now theminute you do that, the minute
you start to make the past andthe horrors and the wonders of

(44:53):
the past something that youcannot remember, you're
condemned to repeating it.

Speaker 1 (45:00):
What does the Bible say?
I believe it's Ecclesiastes 1.9.
What was done will be doneagain.
Yeah, and there's nothing newunder the sun.

Speaker 2 (45:09):
Yeah, yeah.
So I guess those of you thatare listening, those of you that
are watching this I meanthere's not a whole lot of us
you know I look at the numbersand you know we've got a couple
thousand.
You know downloads since thebeginning of this whole thing,
which is great, you know I meanthere's downloads from all over
the country and you know I meanthere's downloads from all over

(45:34):
the country and you know I'mjust looking at the other day
and you know there's Germany andthe Philippines and you know
Asia.
I mean there are folks all overthe world, which is great,
because you know all itultimately takes is a small
group of people to kind of catchthe fire, and you know God can
use the movement.
But I just ask you to thinkabout remembering.
Remember the history that iscelebrated, remember it with all
of us.
Remember the history that'scelebrated in Black History

(45:56):
Month because it's rich, it'svibrant and it's a story of
human survival, of humansovercoming incredible resistance
and incredible hardships andyet still validating their right
to be human beings and to beincluded in the schema of

(46:17):
humanity and the history ofhumanity.
Remember and then don't beafraid to face the awfulness of
who we can be, and have been, aswhite people, as people in
general.
Okay, if you want to take thewhite thing out of it, that
makes you feel better.
If you're, you know I don'twant to feel guilty for being

(46:38):
white.
Okay, you know what you want tofeel guilty about being a human
being, being a human being as aChristian, I have to feel some
sense of.
Because of me, christ died.
Because of me, a man had tohang himself on a cross for, you
know, three hours and die sothat our sins could be forgiven.

(47:01):
And that's a wild thing.
We can get into that a wholeother time.
But remember, remember.
Remember, because remembranceis where we celebrate what was
and what has come and what willbe.
So, by remembering that past,that gives us the fuel to

(47:25):
understand today.
And understanding today thengives you the hope and the
determination to be bettertomorrow.
It's like, you know, parentingor anything that's important in
life.
You know you have to recognizein a relationship, right, men
and women that are out theremarried, or men and men that are
married, whatever.
You have to, at points in arelationship, recognize the

(47:47):
things that you did wrong in thepast so that you can see how
they've affected the present andthen make commitments within
the present to have the futurebe better.
It's a continuum.
You strip one of those thingsout and say you know ah the past
is past.
Why do I have to keep going backto the past all the time?
Why do I have to keep bringingthat up?
Well, because we haven't gottenpast it yet.

(48:10):
Up Well, because we haven'tgotten past it yet.
You know, we haven't gottenpast it yet.
I do that all the time.
My poor wife, after almost 39years of marriage, has to keep
reminding me that we haven'tgotten past this yet, this thing
that you know, you still don'tcommunicate when you need to
communicate.
When are you going tocommunicate, don't you see?

(48:33):
Yeah, I guess I see it.

Speaker 1 (48:35):
Why do you keep bringing that?

Speaker 2 (48:36):
up Because we haven't gotten past it yet.
So it's really simple.
So why do we have to have BlackHistory Month?
Why do we have to have anyhistory?
Because we haven't gotten pastit yet.
We haven't, so let's get thereit is, let's, let's celebrate it
.

Speaker 1 (48:56):
So yes, and then when we celebrate, you know, again,
we're celebrating thecontributions.
Uh, we're celebrating thecontributions.
You know we're talking aboutthe historic memory of the
matter.
You know, of course we ain'tjust talking from the brutal
realities of slavery to therelentless struggle of civil
rights man, it's justemphasizing the path that has to
be taken to overcome thesethings, the tremendous

(49:19):
sacrifices that have been madeby these Black people for all
humanity.
Because again, in civil rightsand voting rights, those things
are all encompassing.
It wasn't just for black people, like the 14th Amendment that
was not only for birthrightcitizenship bills, but all
people that are naturalized.
You know they had all rightsavailable to them under the law.

(49:42):
And you know, and of course,when we acknowledge all these
different things, man it just wehave to just take a step back
and say, wow, look at all thecontributions made, look at uh,
no, look at the no, I can'tremember the um, it was a movie
about the uh gentleman.

(50:03):
Uh, he was, uh, he actually wasa big part of helping with the
first open heart.
I want to say John Haley orHaley or something like that,
but but anyway, he's just likeit was a movie about it.
Most deaf played the guy, but Iwish I could bring that, but it
was like he was.
He was one of the first openheart surgeons, man and he

(50:23):
actually he the guy was tryingto create it, but he created a
tool that made it work.
The guy was trying to create it, but he created a tool that
made it work, and so it was justcelebrating those contributions
to history that reshapeAmerican society, those things
that again, they need to becelebrated.
You know, of course, again, ifyou take away, if you minimize

(50:44):
the contribution, you canminimalize and marginalize the
history and you change andcontrol the narrative.
And then you again, you can saywhatever you want in the year
2050, 2060, you can say whateveragain, and even just simple, as
like right now.

(51:04):
Again, a lot of people may noteven know this, but you know
again.
But again we're giving whiteSouth Africans amnesty and
refugee status, because they'resaying they're being persecuted
by black South Africans.
And tell me if that makes anysense to you.
It does not.
But that is the narrativethat's being created because

(51:26):
again, they want more whitepeople coming into the country
and less people of color comingcoming into the country, for for
we know the purposes and thingslike that, why they're doing it
.
But again, we just have to pointout the history and the
significance of all thesedifferent events and things in
history, you know, from thecreation of the 14th amendment

(51:47):
to the emancipation Proclamation, to the Civil Rights Act of 64,
to the Civil Rights Act of 65,all these various things that
have happened.
And, of course, we talk aboutall the affirmative action
policies since the 1960s on, andit's always been about just
trying to be equal, trying to befair.

(52:08):
It ain't about trying to, it isnot about exaltation, it's not
about pointing out this or that.
Well, it is because we got topoint out the wrong in order to
embrace them, to have thecorrect narrative.
But it ain't, it ain't aboutguilt tripping.
It's simply about saying, hey,this is how we got to this point
, simply about saying, hey, thisis how we got to this point.

(52:31):
You know, it just, it justpoints out the systemic and
systematic racism,discrimination and all those
things, and again, across thespectrum of the institutions in
this country.
And again, it just again.
But also celebrating BlackHistory Month, man, it just kind
of just.
I, I'm just going to say it, itjust it's, it's, it's, it's a
big focal point in the ongoingfight against white supremacy.

(52:54):
Man, you know again, racism,you know it ain't just a matter
of individual presidents, it'sabout the embedded, this
embedded in the very structuresof our institutions.
And you know, and again, whenpeople can control the narrative
, they can.
If they control the history,they can control the narrative.

(53:15):
But you know, and again, that'swhy we have to press on with,
you know, activism and allyship.
You know, amplifying our voices, you know, like the voice of
hate is crying out loud rightnow, the voice of love has to
shout even louder, you know.
And of course, again, they wantto erase things, they want to
rewrite history, they want todownplay black contribution,
they want to suppress thenarrative of resistance.

(53:37):
I'm trying to speak and notpreach, but these things, these
things are real, they're presentand we just, and again, calling
things out is not to guiltanyone, but it's calling shining
light in dark places.

(54:03):
Amen.
Baldwin, I mean FrederickDouglass, james Baldwin, I mean
Thurgood Marshall, martin LutherKing, malcolm X, maya Angelou,
just all these people that havemade these historic
contributions not just to BlackAmerica but America as a whole.
You know that's where weHumanity as a whole, goodness
gracious, exactly, humanity as awhole.

(54:25):
And that's what we have toreally when it comes to Black
history and rememberingeverything that encompasses the
education, the cultural impactof Black people had on the world
, like you just said, you know,it's about preserving the right
narrative of the country, andwhen we can really just let the

(54:49):
word of God or just let thetruth be held up to our face
like a mirror and we canacknowledge that truth, the
quicker we can get past this.
But again, it's just a matterof saying, hey, this was wrong.
A person ain't got to say I waswrong.
Just say hey, yeah, that iswrong.
What can I do to steer the ship?

(55:13):
Now?
You know what I mean, right?
What part can I place in itExactly?

Speaker 2 (55:23):
And then we'll start to reshape the nation and go
forward, and that's the way itis, folks.
Oh, we've tried to take apart apretty thick onion and just
take a little bit of one layeroff.

Speaker 1 (55:35):
Yeah, this is like a part, this is like a hundred
part series.
Right here, man, right right itis.

Speaker 2 (55:41):
So tune in, go get your sleeping bag and we'll just
keep talking it out.
We've got other things to do,but we will come back to this
and I hope it just gets theconversation going.
You know, think about it.
It's okay to disagree.
It's okay to have a differentpoint of view.
It's okay to have a differentframe of reference.

Speaker 1 (56:02):
Notice how I wove that in it's the weed.

Speaker 2 (56:03):
Yeah right, so I'm so special.
Anyways, think about it, justthink about it.
Remember.
You know, there's just so muchpower in the history and if we
fail to remember, if we fail toconfront it, we are condemned to

(56:25):
repeat it.
And that condemnation meanswe're just going to be stuck in
an endless loop.
And if you've done any computerprogramming, you know that what
happens when a program getsstuck in an endless loop?
That program becomes absolutelyuseless.

Speaker 1 (56:43):
So break the loop, okay, and just one last thing
for me, brother, if you don'tmind.
Just I'm strongly encouragingpeople to come out of their own
news bubble to really see whatis going on.
Because, of course, you know,if you, I like, I say I watch
Fox news, I watch Newsmax, I seeit all that way, I know what I

(57:05):
need to be be praying for, butit's the same time, uh, you know
, it's like you see thesetalking points of people and
it's like, wow, that's not true.
And so it's just like we justencourage people.
Let's encourage people to comeout of their news bubble because
again, we got the shining hand.
Look at what I'm doing withthis hand by with this hand is
doing something really sinister.
So come out of your bubble,have an open mind and embrace

(57:30):
truth.
And you know cause, a fact canbe swayed either way, you know,
but just get the fact and thetruth.

Speaker 2 (57:38):
Right, well, and be sure that you, I mean and that
works on the other side too,right, if you're listening to
CNN and MSNBC, and you know the,the, the things of that nature,
the sources of that nature, youknow, listen to Fox News too.
You know it doesn't have to beabout just condemning the other
as much as it's seeking tounderstand what's at root here.

(58:00):
What, why is?
You know, this is the way thatthis event was seen by this side
of the equation and this is theway that same event was seen by
this side of the equation.
This is the way that same eventwas seen by this side of the
equation.
It's like, you know, but thebuilding is burning.
You know, we're seeingdifferent sides of that building
being burned down.
At some point we're gonna haveto say, um, guys, would you pick
up a pail and would you guys goget a hose and let's take the

(58:22):
burning down?
Okay, can we do that?
Because I see that you've gotsome really good hoses here and
I see you guys are particularlygood with your buckets.
Let's just work together andtake this fire down, shall we?
But we're not going to be ableto do that if we say you, morons
and your buckets while youretard and your hoses.
You know it's just come on,really Give me a break.

(58:42):
Oh, and I used the word retardagain.
I used it again.
You're not supposed to use thatword.
I'm sorry.
I grew up in the 60s, it was aword back then and you know I
remember.
Anyways, my name is Raul Rushand I'm part of one half of
Frame of Reference ComingTogether.
This guy across the screen fromme is another one, right?

(59:04):
What's?

Speaker 1 (59:05):
your name again, sir Antoine.

Speaker 2 (59:06):
Holman, sr.
Antoine Holman.
Antoine Holman Sr.
Antoine Holman.
Antoine Holman that's a reallyfamous name, I think I want to
remember that name.

Speaker 1 (59:15):
I pray that the Lord write that name, write that
signature on this earth.

Speaker 2 (59:22):
In a book too.
It would be nice if you got aplace and they actually could
define.
I'm sorry, there is no tablefor you, antoine.
I'm sorry, apparently is notable for you, antoine.
I'm sorry, apparently yourreservation was taken, so no, no
, it's only one of him.
Yeah, you don't get to arguewith that.
I'm sorry.

(59:42):
Anywho, thanks all for joiningus.
Hope that this gets theconversation going some more,
because we need to be talkingabout this.
Amen, amen, god bless.
See you, bro.