March 15, 2024 • 50 mins
Have you ever stood at the intersection of admiration and discrimination, trying to reconcile the two as they clash in the realm of sports and beyond? Rauel and Antowan venture into this delicate balance, contemplating the curious mix of widespread celebration and entrenched prejudice that Black athletes like Jordan Love face. Through their stories, we tease out the nuances of racism, the fight for equality, and the possibilities of bridging the gaps that divide us, all while scrutinizing the complexities of race relations in America.
When considering diversity and unity, we uncover stark realities and the spiritual and moral battles that underpin them. Our conversation turns to the importance of speaking truth to power, reflecting on an incident where I was confronted with hostility during my community outreach. We dissect the concept of Christian masculinity, the test of maintaining integrity amidst adversity, and the challenges of educating on critical race theory. All throughout, we remain grounded in the pursuit of understanding, peace, and the Christian call to counter hate with love.
Closing this powerful dialogue, we bring in perspectives from across the globe, featuring insights from a guest hailing from Kiev, Ukraine, adding depth to our exploration of Christian values in fostering unity. As we navigate the often bewildering political and social narratives, we encourage our listeners not just to question the world around them, but also to introspect and embrace empathy. Let us guide you through this journey as we strive to spread a message of understanding and compassion in tumultuous times.
Thanks for listening. Please check out our website at www.forsauk.com to hear great conversations on topics that need to be talked about. In these times of intense polarization we all need to find time to expand our Frame of Reference.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
Let's have it.
Hey everybody, my name isAntoine Hohman.
Seeing, I'm here with my goodfriend, raul Abreche, and this
is a frame of reference comingtogether.
And of course, you know RaulAbreche, he actually created the
frame of reference podcastyears ago, where they are
talking about various issues.
It started out with the artsand, but then it came to social
issues and now we have, you know, he invited me into this
(00:39):
platform to talk about things ofa, of a black nature, or just
how do we bring the racestogether?
How do we create unity?
How do we bring understanding?
So thus the name of the podcast, frame of reference coming
together.
How are you doing, brother?
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Oh man, you know it's , it's been a week.
You know I mean I can never sayanything, though that even when
close to you, know the stuffyou deal with every day with the
.
I don't know, guys, if you'velistened to this podcast before
you know that my brother Antoinereally deals with some serious
pain issues and and hischaracter yet remains devoted in
(01:18):
service to not only thecommunities around him but to
his wife and family and he isthe real deal when you want to
talk about, you know someonethat is trying to walk the walk
and talk the talk.
So I'm kind of I am just fine.
You know the cold has been alittle bit difficult, but I'm
much more towards cold than I amheat and I am I'm excited about
(01:39):
our talk today.
Every day we have a talk, everytime we get together and just
kind of mall things over.
You know my role in this folksis to just ask questions that I
have and I hope they're the samequestions about you know,
things that you have and I'm.
I really want to understand moreabout the black experience in
in America, because we we seemto have two kind of
(02:01):
diametrically opposed groups offolks in the US right now.
There's there are those thatare acknowledging that there's a
problem with systematic racism,that there's still, there are
issues that have not beenresolved since the early
formation years of this country,and then there are those that
absolutely deny and, you know,honestly get angry about the
(02:24):
suggestion that that does exist,and then that carries people
into even more anger.
And I guess the third group ofpeople are those that are
actively hating on black people,people of color in general.
And if that was not the case,somebody please tell me why.
There's still white supremacistmovements where people are so
(02:45):
convinced that the white way ofliving is under threat,
endangered, that they, you know,rekindle hate on every front
imaginable.
And you know it is.
I don't understand it, folks,because this country is changing
.
It changed when the you knowAmericans came in mass.
(03:06):
It changed when the Irish camein mass.
It changed when the Italianscame in mass and, unfortunately,
the African Americans are blackpeople in our country.
It didn't change.
It got worse for them when theycame, and now, when we're
finally trying to recognize, wehave the mess we have today.
And I want my topic today andthe thing that spurred me to
(03:30):
realize that there is thisdichotomy in ways that I don't
even think about.
And I was early in the week.
I was just on uppers over ourquarterback here in Wisconsin,
the Green Bay Packers.
There is a young gentleman thatis playing for our team right
now that took over for a legend,Aaron Rodgers, and this guy is
(03:52):
just such an inspiration to mebecause not only a great
quarterback and a youngquarterback.
What is he like?
25 years old, I think.
I'm not a big football fan, butJordan is.
Isn't he About that age, 24, 25, yeah.
Okay, and he not only, but nowhe's doing that, but we were
reading during this big snowfallwe had not too long ago.
He was like helping peoplepushing their cars out of snow
(04:15):
banks.
You know he works for the.
He did some significant workwith the Salvation Army over the
Christmas holiday break, wherehe was, you know, signing
autographs.
You know people would givedonations to Salvation Army.
He would sign an autograph forthem.
So you know, no, I don't knowif you've tried to get
signatures, but I'm a Star Trekguide.
William Shatner charges like$400 for an autograph and it
(04:37):
just goes to him, you know so.
So, just, you know, the qualityof the character of the man was
so wonderful and I is sowonderful, and it struck me that
is there a bridge there?
You know, can, can blackathletes and the, when they're
the quality of human being thatthere are, does that cause white
people or give them reason tojust kind of wake up and say,
(04:59):
hey, these guys are heroes.
You know what are.
What am I doing?
Thinking that black people areany different?
You know they're.
They're heroes, they'rewonderful people.
I don't need to see them asblack or white, I just have to
see them as human beings thatare great human beings.
And Antoine, I sent that out toAnno.
I said am I simplifying things?
Of course I am, I'm that kindof guy.
But Antoine said, you know itis interesting, america loves
(05:21):
its black athletes.
You know the Michael Jordan ofthe world you know the Jordan
loves.
But we then will turn around anddisdain a black man at Walmart.
You know we will look at himand see.
You know what's he doing in mythis, whatever.
You know the thoughts, or justbe like, oh, you know, I better
be careful.
Or whatever you know, wonderwhat he's carrying in his
pockets.
(05:41):
You know the thoughts that gothrough people's mind because
they have disdain.
They're they.
All of a sudden the colorbecomes an important thing for
some reason, or you know a placeof judgment, and it is.
It's ripping us apart.
That's that inability to justsay hey, you know, go up and ask
questions.
(06:01):
Hey, man, how's it going?
You know, how are you doingtoday?
Speaker 1 (06:05):
I don't know what is that Well, we got to get to a
place where we are in a space ofknowledge over narratives.
You know, of course.
You know, like, when we take alike, we'll use the Jordan love
example.
Yes, he is a great young manand definitely celebrate his
success, you know, and he's heloves his family and he's
(06:25):
obviously he loves the community, so that's that.
That is a great thing, you know, of course.
You know, when we were talkingabout maybe an earlier podcast,
we're talking about how we findcommonality.
You know, when, when you thinkof, like, say, a black
entertainer, black athlete, youknow, and, of course, like, say,
when we're talking about howthe contrast in treatment, or
(06:46):
the disdain versus theentertainer, versus the common,
no, electrician or whatever, youknow, and it is, it's a matter
of knowledge over narratives,because we, because people say,
ok, the commonality is with him.
Hey, I love Packers and thisyoung man plays for my team and
he is being successful for myteam, so we like him, we love
(07:09):
him.
But also, when we talk aboutlike, say, the black entertainer
, the black athlete, you know,and like, say, the person that
goes by narrative versusactually having the actual
knowledge they have to have thenarrative of, well, look at no
he.
Why?
Why can't everybody?
Why can't all black people belike him?
He worked hard to get to wherehe is and but the thing is you
(07:32):
had I want you to take a pictureof this and just think for
every black successful athlete,you see there's going to be
maybe a few hundred thousandthat didn't make it.
They followed in the samefootsteps.
They worked out the two threetimes a day.
They did everything that wassupposed to in what the world
(07:52):
says to become a successfulathlete or a successful
entertainer.
They did what was right alongthose lines, and so when we see
someone that has actually madeit, you say OK, why can't they
all be like him?
And it's like we all are.
We're just working hard in ourown different professions, or
we're.
The narrative is not all of uswork as hard as that person that
(08:16):
you see on the daily basis onTV or in the entertainment or
sports room, which is just kindof false.
You know for everyone that yousee that has made it in this
success.
For every successful Jordanlove, there's a couple of
hundred thousand young kids thatdidn't make it but followed the
same footsteps.
They desired the collegescholarship.
They, they come from a place ofpoverty, come from a single
(08:38):
family home, become from all allthese different things and they
did everything but no, theydidn't get.
That that scout didn't come totheir neighborhood or their
school, or is always, is justagain.
For every one that made it,there's a few hundred thousand
that didn't.
And it's not to say that we alldon't work hard because we do
and that's just a white or black.
(08:59):
It's just again that narrativeof well, if, why don't they all
try as hard as he did and theywill be all right?
And that's just not the case.
Well, of course, we see.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
Yeah what doesn't that go to?
You know the whole issue towith affirmative action programs
and you know the equal likeright.
You know voting acts.
You know the things that arehopefully leveling the field a
little bit more.
And now there's all of this.
You know well I don't get anybreaks like that.
Why should they get breaks justbecause they're black or
whatever you?
Speaker 1 (09:29):
know Well, again, and this is what we have to have
the knowledge over the narrative.
You know, of course, even goingback to what was being said in
Florida, how, oh, you know theslaves, they actually gained
skills and actually that'strying to put humility on
slavery, that's creating a wholedifferent narrative about the
aspect of slavery and what itwas and what it really did and
(09:51):
how it affects us to this day.
You know, and that's where itis like now.
It's like you is again thisconsistent whitewashing of
history, or this pacifying ofhistory, or just creating this
thing about history as if itdidn't it did.
It's all they want to make itso where it doesn't appear to
(10:15):
have an effect on things todayBecause, like I say, those very
things that were like thesethings were acknowledged at one
point, but now there's an allout attack against them.
You know, of course, like, uh,you got some of the most
powerful people in the world nowsaying you will die with DEI.
(10:35):
You will die with DEI, DEI, ifyou, if you like, they blame,
they plain crash on D, ondiversity, equity and inclusion.
You know you got a.
You know billionaires, therichest man in the world, uh,
elon Musk, you know, sayingyou'll die with DEI, and again,
it's all about, you know, justuh, again this minority rule,
(10:57):
complex.
People think that they're thisuh, replacement theory complex,
and it's just not the case.
It's just.
The world is changing.
The world is evolving.
Yes, you know, there's going tobe more minorities, there's
going to be more non-whitepeople.
There's actually probably morenon-white people or just as much
.
Right now I don't know theexact stats, but yes, this is a.
(11:19):
Instead of embracing this changeand understanding, how can we
get better understanding and howwe can come to a place of
growth and love andunderstanding?
And people are bringing upthese things of hate Cause again
, all these tactics like takingaway voting rights and, uh,
affirmative action in a woman'sright to choose, taking away all
(11:39):
these rights.
Now we're at the next stage ofit, where the threats of
violence, just like in the 30s,40s, 50s.
Now here come the threats ofviolence again, and this is a, a
, a perpetual cycle that we'rein right now.
Dr King, uh, he's, he made a, a,a, a great quote and um, I want
(12:00):
to get it right, but uh,forgive me for the uh
paraphrasing, but he says it'snot what my enemy says to me,
but it's about what mysupporters don't say, and and so
we are still in a space where,you know, we democracy is under
attack.
Voting rights, no common justcommon sense law and even a
(12:22):
various amendments of theconstitution are under attack,
and these and people are awareof it, but they're not saying
anything.
So me, as a black man, uh mecalling it out, crying out about
it, how many times do I tellyou the country is tired of
hearing a black man cry, rightso?
But when we, when we cry aboutit or when we talk about it, you
(12:43):
know what we're, you know whatthey're saying.
Oh, you're exaggerating this,you're exaggerating.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
I had a friend of mine this morning.
Yeah.
I had a friend this morning,that was, we were having
breakfast together and he wassaid that you know well, some,
some slaves were actuallytreated it wasn't so bad.
They were treated really wellby their masters and you know,
they they, you know said that itwasn't too bad.
And I said, wait, whoa, whoa,whoa.
And I almost could not believethis is a wonderful guy.
(13:12):
Okay, this is a very loving,caring guy.
It's been through a whole bunchof just very, very difficult
stuff in his life, you know, andhe knows great disappointment,
knows what it is to be, you know, just economically threatened
and you know, has given of hisheart soul, blah, blah, blah.
Good, good person, right, buthe has been told a bunch of lies
(13:34):
as a white person, that thereit's, it's.
Some black people actuallythought it was not a bad thing
to be a slave and I said, wait,wait a minute, this is.
There is no way, any way, shapeor form, that a black person
ever thought that being a slavewas not so bad, if, if, anything
there might have been.
(13:54):
Hey, today was a good day.
I didn't get beaten today, youknow, thank, you know,
thankfully I did not get beatentoday, but there was the threat
that the day isn't over yet andI still could do something that
would get me beaten, not tomention that you know even
DeSantis is tough about you know.
Well, you know some blackpeople were taught.
You know useful skills that youknow they could take and
actually, you know, benefitthemselves and benefit blah,
(14:16):
blah, blah.
I said, yeah, just step backfrom that a second too.
You weren't have a.
You didn't have a right to.
You know, choose whether or notyou wanted to be a blacksmith
or not.
You were told by your masteryou're going to be a well, you
know a blacksmith and you knowwhat you better be a really good
blacksmith, because I need agood blacksmith, not somebody
that's going to do crappy job onthings and, on top of it, you
(14:39):
weren't.
You didn't have any choice.
You weren't.
You know they're saying youknow well, I really would like
to.
You know and be oh okay.
Well, yeah, that sounds like agood thing too.
Why don't you do that?
And, worse yet, if you tried todo something like just read,
you know, well, I would like tobe able to learn to read too,
because you know I need to readmanuals and how to do and
(15:00):
whatever.
Or I just want to be able toread my Bible.
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,no, no, no.
You can't.
We can't have black peoplereading that.
That's just not acceptable.
So explain that to me.
Explain to me.
You know the narrative that saysit wasn't that bad.
Okay, you know.
If it wasn't so bad, then why?
(15:20):
Why were black people at all,you know, treated like furniture
?
Why were they treated like?
You know?
We could never get away fromthe fact that I own that two
thirds person.
You know it's like.
Really, how can you even get toa place White folks out there,
how can your friends get there?
Try to understand, try, don'ttry to just, you know, yell at
(15:43):
them, but just say you knowthat's really interesting that
you think that.
Why do you think that?
Why do you think that, well, Imean, wait a minute.
But why do you think that anyblack person would think that
that was a good thing, that thatwas okay?
You know they were treatedreally well.
So you know this is just fine.
Do you think any one of them,do you believe that any one of
them would, if, given the chanceto not be a slave, would have
(16:05):
not gone like that to say, yeah,I'll not be a slave.
I'd like to determine with mylife and when I do it and how I
do it.
I'd like that freedom thing youguys talk about but only have
for yourselves, right why?
Speaker 1 (16:20):
Yeah, and of course, even going back to that, that's
a great point there, brother.
And it's like you know, ofcourse, people you know, when
you go, like even back to thedays of slavery, and you had the
house Negro in the field Negro,of course the house Negro had
some, some luxuries excuse methat the field Negro didn't but
(16:41):
what costs did that house Negroget those benefits?
You know, of course, he had toset out the field Negro.
If there was any kind of plansor plots to escape, he would go
tell master or if, and even atthe cost of relationship, you
know, of course, those divideswere just systematically changed
(17:04):
where, yes, you know, of course, you'll see the house Negro get
treated better than the fieldNegro.
And then, of course, the fieldNegro came to despise the house
Negro, and then the house Negromay have developed a complex on
us where, hey, I'm better thanyou.
And then, of course, and thatvery thing has carried on till
today as well, that very thingand that's where it's like I get
(17:28):
envious of, I don't want to sayenvious, but it just I admire
how other races are able tostick together, except black
people, and and it is like, wow,stick together, why can't we be
one voice?
But again, this thing that hasbeen created over centuries put
us at odds with each other.
(17:49):
And I tell you a story.
You know where I used to live.
You know, of course, we do alot of community outreach, right
?
You know we do a lot of thingsin the community.
I was confronted by this personjust randomly, just I love this
person, and then just justbasically attack me out of my
(18:09):
wife, was going to call thepolice, and I was just literally
attacked and was just talkingall these different kinds of
things, and it's like he waslike and I'm like, hey, man,
whatever I ever done to you,I've been nothing but nice to
you.
And then, of course, then wegoing back and forth.
I'm like I'm just because I'mjust stunned at what is
happening in my face at thispoint.
And then, of course, the persongoes oh well, it's good that
(18:32):
you're nice to the community,it's nice that you're good to
the community, but I need you tobe loyal to me.
And I'm like I know the Lordand I hit my Zach words was, I
know the Lord didn't bring mefrom under one situation to come
under another.
And then the person dangles a$12,000 checks to my face, said
(18:52):
if you submit to me, some ofthis could be yours.
And that's when it's so.
Again, those is this is so manylittle bitty, bitty bitty pieces
created within that createsthat crab in a barrel complex,
or you know what I mean.
And so it just.
It goes on and on.
So there's a lot of things thatknow we have to pray down and
(19:14):
fight against.
And you know, of course, whenthe Bible tells us for as much
as up to you, live peaceablywith all men.
Right, that means live for muchas up to you.
That means have you doneeverything you can to get a
better understanding?
Have you done everything youcan to just really put yourself
in that person's shoes?
Have you done everything youcan to relate to that person?
No, for as much as up to you,live peaceably with all men.
(19:38):
And the answer to that I wouldprobably say is no, because
again, people may identify,maybe people may even sympathize
, but when it comes to actuallyknow some work involved, you
know people will get scaredbecause again, what we're seeing
is all out.
We're seeing history repeatitself because of now, like that
(19:59):
Dr King statement I just madeis not what my enemies say but
it's not, it's about the silenceof the people that are supposed
to be with me, and it's likepeople are being threatened into
not talking people and it justthis is where we are.
People are afraid of losingfamily members, people are in
fear of losing relationshipswith friends and family, and so
(20:19):
on and so forth.
You know, and again, it's likewe cry about this all the time.
I think I told you the story inone of our earlier podcasts is
where I had a white friend, youknow, and then, of course, just
so happened, we're downtown,back and forth, we're in the
record stores and all this, andthat didn't one of his friends
come up and there is a course,there's just a light, hello, and
(20:43):
all that.
And then, of course, my wifefriend goes hey, what's going on
with that?
And I'm like, hey, man, I had abad experience with that person
and he chose not to believethat.
And yeah, and so that's what weare.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
Well, you know I have had my own thoughts of.
You know this podcast takes offand the wrong white people
start listening and startfeeling threatened.
You know what we talk about andwhat I say.
You know because I'm not justspeaking.
You know words out of thesouthern end of my body.
You know I'm trying to speaktruly from my heart, you know,
(21:18):
and they are things I trulybelieve.
And then I think but if thesefolks show up at my doorstep and
threaten my family, you knowthey because they're you know,
these are not reasonable people.
For the most part, right, theseare not folks that are acting
and willing to listen to anotherside of an equation.
They are folks that are, just,you know, bent on hate.
(21:39):
And I think to myself am Iprepared for that?
You know how do I prepare forthat?
How do I prepare my family forthat?
I don't think my daughter wouldhave a problem, because the
nature of the things that she'sstudying with you know
multicultural racism and sheactually, as a PhD student, is
talking about critical racetheory and knows exactly how
(22:00):
stupid it is that we get allbent out of shape about critical
race theory being taught inelementary school, because, let
me tell you, you think that highschool and whatnot is boring.
Now it would really bore peopleif you tried to teach them
about critical race theory,because it's really difficult to
get your head around.
It takes a lot of thinking.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
I have the book and I'm still like I have the book
and I've been trying to getthrough it forever, but it's a
lot to digest, yeah yeah, so yesyou would not Really really
cool and it's like yeah, and ofcourse I had to have a friend of
mine, percy Brown.
He basically had to simplify thebook for me.
It's a study of systems, right,you know, and that's where?
(22:38):
And that's where it's like, oh,now I can kind of wrap my head
around it.
It's a study of systems, right,and yes, and these systems do
call out, the study of thesesystems do expose the systemic
and systematic racism that is inthis country, and but like you
were just saying, though, likeyou know, when this podcast
takes off and people start tohate on you for whatever reason,
(23:01):
you know, because you're sayingsomething that they don't want
to hear.
But you got to understand, youknow people hate truth and you
know people's truth is based onhow they feel.
And when you are speakingtruths like this, you know the
enemy, our adversary, the devil,hates it, no question.
And what we teach, and what weteach in our ministry, we have
(23:22):
to understand that this isspiritual.
The Bible clearly tells us theweapons of our warfare are not
carnal but might be, through God, to the pulling down the
strongholds.
That's a second Corinthians 10,around verse three to five.
But then you know Ephesians six, around verse 10 or so.
It says we do not wrestleagainst flesh and blood, but
against principalities, powers,against rulers of the darkness
(23:44):
of this age and againstspiritual host, the wickedness
and heavenly places.
That means that this is aspiritual thing.
Hate is a spirit.
You know the spirit of division, you know it's a spirit and
when we can really get past,that's when we can actually
really start to see, you know,the kingdom of God start to
really manifest itself on earthas it is in heaven.
(24:07):
You know, love people, right,and that's where it because,
again, because, again.
How many times have I told youI blame the church on a lot of
instances?
Yeah, this thing starts, itstarts in the church.
Yeah, and you know where.
You know, like you got.
You know these evangelicalchurches.
They now have this Christianmasculinity thing, this thing
going where now it's okay for achurch to buy guns and say we're
(24:33):
waiting on some type of civilwar?
No, that's not right, that's aspiritual, that that's a demonic
spirit.
You know, because if we'reactually talking about the love
of Christ, he loved people, heforgave people and he gave his
life for people.
He gave to people.
He loved for, gave and gavethat's the very culture of
Christ.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
He would be the chairman of the DEI committees
throughout the country.
He would be.
That would be look at Christ'swords, look at the stuff in red
guys.
That that is like straight outof DEI philosophy and DEI.
You know goals and objectives.
Because he was not.
He didn't sit there and say, oh,here's this woman that's, you
(25:13):
know, sitting at the Well, andyou know she said, like seven
husbands or whatever he, youknow he, he already knew that
before he sat down next to her.
You know he knew that before hesat down.
And yet he was there to tellher about living water.
He was there to tell her abouthis role in saving her and
saving anyone like her.
He had prostitutes that werepart of his ministry that were
(25:36):
following him.
He had tax collectors who atthat point in time, you know it,
tax collectors aren'tparticularly loved right now,
but they were really hated backthen, you know so in and then
the you know the common peoplewere fishermen.
You know that he was all aboutdiversity and inclusion and
equity.
There was no.
You know, the people that hehad issues with were the people
(25:59):
that were Pharisees andSadducees that they were like oh
no, no, no, we can't have partof that, that they don't have
the learning that I have in thedeeper Understanding of the word
that I have, you know.
I mean they didn't speak withtheir kind of brouche accent.
Obviously you get my pointright.
So, where, where is what's thedeal?
You know.
(26:19):
So you think about in the lastdays that if it were possible,
even the elect would be deceived, will be.
And I think about, you know, Idon't know if I want to be or
can't.
You know, when I go to thethink of am I the elect?
Am I the elect that that'stalking about?
Because if I am the elect,praise God, but if I'm also the
elect to whole already, you knowI help me not be deceived, help
(26:42):
me not be what Dr King eventalked about, to the greatest
obstacle that I believe he hetalks about, like in the last
Sermon he had before theshooting in Memphis that he, the
thing that he was mostconcerned about was white,
moderate America, just to whatyou're saying.
You know that they, they are thepeople that you know, we're the
friends that were marchingalong with them but yet, when
(27:03):
push came to shove, would theyhave the fortitude, the
commitment, the, the, you knowpassionate, you know commitment
overall to this not being rightto stand up and potentially lose
it all, you know, potentiallydie, you know, and to think of
it as being anything other thanstanding on the word of Christ
and standing on, if I'm gonnacall myself A Christian, then I
(27:27):
have to be able to lay down mylife for another, and if I don't
get it, yeah, and you know, andAgain it's like, and it ain't
nothing but the love of God, thelove of Jesus, that allows,
just speaking for myself, youknow, as a black man in this
country, to get through whatwe're getting through.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
You know, course, because I've made the decision
Okay, lord, I'm gonna obey yourword and of course, in the
course, when we talk about youknow God's word, a lot of times
people, yes, you can go, you canget all theological and deep
with it, but a lot of Jesustaught at a third, fourth grade
level.
So His words are pretty plain.
You know, it's just a matter.
(28:08):
Do you want to do it?
You know, like when he says youknow, like in his first sermon,
sermon on the mount.
You know when he says blessedare the peacemakers, for they
shall be called sons of God.
Blessed are the peacemakers.
Remember that scripts I justsaid a few minutes ago is a
Romans 12, around verse 10 or 11or something like that.
For as much as up to you, livepeaceably with all men.
(28:31):
So have you done everything youcan to live peaceably with all
men?
No, blessed are the peacemaker,so they shall be called sons of
God, because Jesus himself saidhe is peace.
He is the prince of peace andso, if any and it's like if the
church is creating discord whatdo you think is gonna happen in
the world?
Because when he said even guysthe leg will be deceived, he was
(28:53):
talking about everyone who,even the people that accept him
as their Lord and Savior, willbe deceived.
And we see that now.
Because you know what, when wetalking about you know Christian
nationalism no, that's whitenationalism.
You can mask it intoevangelical.
You can.
You can say you can mask ithowever you want.
It comes down to simply hate.
You're not a peacemaker.
You're going against the veryword of God that you're saying,
(29:16):
that you're preaching andteaching.
You're going against it.
And that's what Jesus had.
Is that's who he cussed out themost?
He's like whoa.
Do you scribes and Phariseesand hypocrites?
Right?
You know, and that's who hecussed out the most.
And that's what we are rightnow.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
Can I ask a question because you're making me think
of something again?
I keep thinking of it, notasking you.
When I see black men in thevideo recordings of black men at
January 6, you know they're onthe Capitol and they're fighting
amongst all of these peoplethat are, you know, trying to
tear down, you know, the wholeelection process, trying to
undermine the fair and equitableand elected, you know,
(29:53):
transition to power.
Are those black men and womenand I don't know that there were
a lot, I mean, you see, youknow, interspersed throughout
the crowd?
Are they today's equivalent ofa house Negro?
Speaker 1 (30:04):
No, they choose to believe what they choose to
believe.
And again it's like again,that's where the cup, the, what
we feel like.
This is how I see it, you know.
It's like a lot of a poor oreven middle-class Americans are
simply being deceived by liesand, of course, those a few
Remnants of black people thatyou see sprinkled in that crowd,
(30:27):
they chose to believe that lie,you know.
And of course, the field andhouse Negro comment no, that's
just the one who is in aposition, but he doesn't want to
get, he don't want you, hedon't want the field Negro to
come into position.
That's a and so he'll, he'llDefame, blast and whatever you
want to call it.
And and that's just where it is.
(30:48):
And, of course, there thatdisdain, because you know a lot
of people just hate the favorthat's gonna be on your life,
point blank you know how canthey, though, not realize the,
the movement, the folks thatthey're surrounded with are?
Speaker 2 (31:02):
I'm not surprised they're not getting punched.
You know that.
You know that that there's nota recognition that I'm aligning
myself with, all of the thingsthat my people are Are fighting
against, and maybe it's whatyou're talking about, that we
can't, that black people can'tseem to be United in an effort
that they're just there.
Isn't that cohesion?
(31:23):
You know, pervasive cohesion Isthat, if that one, I'm just
trying to get my head aroundlike it doesn't seem possible to
me.
It's like, you know, it justdoesn't make any sense.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
It's, it's it's again , again, just from my eyeball
and from my perspective, is it'sall spiritual, you know, and
again it's like this Look at me,spirit, look at what I'm doing,
look at me, look at what I'mdoing, and then it's like if you
see someone else doingsomething similar, you're gonna
shoot it down or Defame it oryou know, you're just gonna
crush it, try to crush it,because you want to be the only
(31:57):
Black voice in the room or youwant to be the only voice that
speaks for this people in theroom, and you see that a lot,
and that's just not a just inblack communities, but on white
ones as well.
In every community you're gonnahave, you're gonna have
playmakers and you're gonna haveplayer haters.
You know, right, right, right.
And and you know if you, if yousee someone making a play, and
(32:17):
then thing is it's like, andthen you see the humbleness and
the humility part of it, youknow it's like A lot of people
hate that.
And again, because again it'sspiritual, because it ain't it,
ain't you that they're hating,they hate the spirit that's
within you and that's where,like you know, we preach and
teach this bible plainly andjust say, hey, understand it,
this thing is spiritual.
(32:39):
You know, the bible says ablessed those who persecute you.
Blessed are those who arepersecuted.
And you know, for righteousnesssake, and that means if, if all
this opposition comes up, thatmeans I must be doing something
right.
I take it as that.
But you know, one pastor saidthis.
He's like, when people startcoming against you, the first
(32:59):
person you need to look at isyourself.
You say okay, what did I do tobring this on?
And then not only do you justpray about it, but you pray and
then you wait to get an answerfrom God.
You wait on the holy spirit togive you an answer and then, if
that reveals something wrong inyou, you go and correct it.
You know, it's like I said,it's a grudge or adversary,
quickly, unless you know heturned you over to the judge and
(33:21):
you get thrown in jail andyou'll be there to you pay every
last penny, you know.
So it's like if, if it's,there's always a, you know, a
self-examination piece toeverything and and so.
But when things come up againstyou, when you when this given
to you to hey, all you're doingis what I told you to do.
Because when we are walking inobedience to God, our obedience
to God is going to offend otherpeople point blank.
(33:43):
You know, because they, a lotof people, know what they're
supposed to be doing and justwon't do it.
And so when they see you doingwhat they know they're supposed
to be doing, they're gonna hatethat and so, and and again.
That just that goes, uh, that'sjust transcendent Against
people as a nature, as a culture.
You know, as as just as theworld we live in, and so, but
(34:05):
when we're talking about thisnarrative of you know the white
that a black black in americaexperience, you know it.
You know it's like you can doeverything, that's right, you
know again, but you're gonna bejudged based on how you dress.
You're gonna be judged based onyou know how you talk.
You know there's a lot of goodyoung christian men.
Like when you go to a placelike chicago, right, uh, our uh,
(34:28):
our, our uh home church, or ouruh Pastor, our covering pastor,
john f hannah, at new lifecovenant church, southeast, when
we go down there, you'll seeyoung men.
Yes, they got there, they gotthe pan sagging, they got the
braze, they got the holy genes,but they are young, devout men
and women of god, and but yetthey'll be judged in the world
(34:51):
based or by other Christiansbased on how they appear.
And then, of course, like Ithink I told you about how, like
the doctor here in green bay,you know he rolls up, you know
he looked like a the commonperson, but if you just look at
him on the outside you would notknow he was a doctor and that's
what we are, you know.
Again, it's like, uh, we needto get to loving people versus
(35:12):
judging people and judging by itwas the whole thing.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
You know, don't judge a book by its cover.
Right, right and you Right, goahead.
Speaker 1 (35:23):
No, no, no, and just again, like a going back to the
original part of ourconversation, you know, like,
when you see a black athlete,you know, for every one
successful black athlete thatyou see on the national stage,
there's a few hundred thousandof them that did not make it.
They followed the samefootsteps, they did everything
they were told, they trained asthey were told and did
everything they were told.
It just didn't happen for them,for whatever reason injury, uh,
(35:46):
look at the draw.
You know it.
Just, it just didn't happen.
And then that narrative againcomes up as to where, oh well,
if they worked hard as he worked, they all are be well off.
And it's like a lot of peopleare working very hard with what
they were born into.
You know, whatever they wereborn, it's a lot of good hearted
people that want to Get out ofwhere they are.
(36:09):
They're just hoping for anopportunity.
You know, they hoping that thebus route would start to run
through their community.
No, more often they are hoping.
You know, yes, if, uh, I would.
You know, like, again goingback to what we were talking
about no months ago, there's alot of uh people that would love
to get off where fair becausethey they can make more money
(36:29):
off where.
Fair if they had Help withchild care.
And in the course it's like youhave to sacrifice one or the
other.
The man can't be in the house.
Either you take this welfareand and stay at home, or you you
take your chances on your ownwith, you know, two, three
children.
You go get a job, no, at 15, 16an hour and good luck with
(36:49):
insurance, you know right.
Speaker 2 (36:52):
Well, good luck with you know, trying to watch your
kids and keep them on a messshift you know and good luck
with you know, even the.
I don't know if people would,just as you say, try to
understand, try to ask questions, try to really really get a
handle on it.
I mean I, I keep thinking likestories that I hear of a.
(37:12):
There's a young black man up inBaraboo, you know small town,
what 4,000, 8,000 people in westBaraboo and you know Baraboo
combined.
He, he got to the point wherehe, whenever he was waiting for
a stoplight, he would step backfrom the corner because he got
tired of being spit on by whiteguys driving by in cars or
(37:34):
taking you know corners.
And I thought wow kidding me andyou know you said no, you know
you get spit at and spit on acouple of times.
That's enough to make yourealize, hey, I better just step
away from the corner here, waitfor the light from there.
You know, show me anywhere.
Show me anywhere where that?
That is something that anywhite person anywhere in the
(37:56):
united states has to worry about.
I mean, I would like to know ifthere is somebody, and I would
like to know how they feel aboutthat, and if this can happen in
small town America, where elseis it happening?
Speaker 1 (38:07):
I don't know and and again it's like into the to the
Uncompromising ear, that wassound as an exaggeration.
You know what I mean.
If, if you didn't really knowyou, it'll sound as an
exaggeration.
And and that's what we got toget.
To the knowledge overnarratives piece.
You know, of course, all thesedifferent narratives are trying
(38:29):
to be established and created inthis country, but we have to,
and the thing is, people thatare fighting for rights, people
that Know, as we speak up onthese topics and subjects, we
have to stay prayed up and like,lord, don't help, help us to,
not to grow where we are welldoing, because we can yell at
the top of our voice and nothingis being done.
(38:52):
And I mean, and thing is isthere's no change and the thing
is and it's like you can't blamethe and I don't blame the
president, because I and it'slike, and this is where a lot of
narratives happen, also becausethe people are Currently
constantly blaming the presidentand whoever else.
And that's where, where we say,knowledge over narratives, we
(39:15):
need the people need to learnthe actual, just basics of
politics.
You know the legislative system, the judicial system and the
executive branch of thegovernment and how they work,
because, again, it's easy topoint the finger and say, okay,
you're not doing this, that andthe other, but not understanding
that the votes are needed inboth of these houses to actually
get to a desk to be signed, andso when Something's being done
(39:40):
or not being done, automaticallywe just say, okay, and this is
like white people as well asblack people.
Well, he, such and such ain'tdoing this, such and such ain't
doing that, because you got thisconstant bickering.
But you got a small fraction ofpeople within government that
are Basically acting andthinking the way that we're
describing today.
They are, their hearts are fullof hate, they have this
(40:03):
replacement theory thing intheir hearts and and so they're
fighting all these different.
They're fighting Justice andequality on every angle.
You know, and it's like I know,when you hear about like say,
okay, abortion is a big issue,right.
And then, of course, you hearall these states like, uh, ohio,
kansas, uh, florida, they arefighting, they got the right,
(40:26):
they got the bill right fortheir right to get an abortion
right on their elections ticketsor whatever, right, they got
these things.
But it's like, when will youstop electing the officials that
are going to vote and try tocircumvent the very thing that
you are trying, the right thatyou're trying to fight for you,
but yet you'll turn around andvote for the very person that's
going to circumvent the thingthat you're fighting for.
(40:46):
And so that's just again whereunlearned people, uh, you know,
poor white people, poor blackpeople, we shoot ourselves in
the foot.
We vote against our own bestinterests because we've been
manipulated, we've been liedupon.
You know, of course, like, uh,that book that we shared last
week, um, the kingdom, power andthe glory, and that gentleman,
uh think it was like tim albison, time albison, but whatever, he
(41:09):
was just talking about thosethings.
How it just these very things.
You know how even evangelicalsare being misled.
They're taking an issue likeabortion because remember, way
back when, even in the souththey were four, a lot of pastors
were for abortion.
It became political.
It became political in the 60s,in the 60s, 70s and 80s and so
(41:33):
on and so forth.
It became a political issue.
And then, of course, when thispolitical issue kind of a lot of
people in the church adaptedthis political issue and then it
became a good versus evil issue.
And then so every even if youjust take now, we're in a space
where, okay, abortion is eviland anyone that stands for it is
evil.
And but just think about this,everything that the other group
(41:55):
stands for is evil as well.
Oh, equality, that's evil.
Voting rights, that's evil, it,it.
And this is where, again, I, Iknow my.
I'm like, lord, help me, loveyour church, because these
jugglers are acting up.
Speaker 2 (42:16):
I bet we better wrap this podcast up because my blood
pressure is through the roofright now.
Um, no, folks just did I dothat?
No, no, this whole thing,because I, you know, I've had
this conversation.
I talked with the man on myother podcast his frame of
reference, profiles andleadership talked with a young
man, uh, who lives in Kiev,ukraine, right now.
(42:40):
And you know I can't imaginewhat those, those people are
going through right now.
You know we've never had thatkind of of threat to our nation
on our soil like they have had,you know.
And the number of people thathave been lost in that war, um,
the number, the destructionthat's happened he and I were,
we're talking about that.
You know where do things gowrong?
And he said it.
I think it goes back to askingwhy that if we stop being
(43:04):
curious about, you know, whythings are happening, why do
people believe the things thatthey do?
Why, why, why and I'm just, I'mencouraging people that are
listening to this Just look atthese situations.
You know, even if you'rethinking about the, the guy
being spat upon standing in aquarter, and if you're, you're
(43:24):
thinking to yourself oh, thatcouldn't have happened.
He's just telling that becausehe wants people to feel sorry
for him, because he's black.
Wow, whatever.
I mean, I can imagine thingsthat could go through people's
health, but I do want, I wantyou to stop yourself for a
second to and say but what if?
What if it did happen?
What if it did happen?
Are you willing to considerthat it could happen?
(43:44):
Are you considering the factthat, if it happened, why could
it did it?
Would it happen?
And you know it's.
It's worth considering and itis something that we need to.
A significant majority of usneed to say the country that
will ask those questions, thatwill say that will confront
(44:08):
things that will not make youfeel good, but they're not going
to not make you feel goodbecause you're white.
Stop that narrative in yourmind, right?
I don't know they're going tomake you not feel good because,
as a human being, as a humanhuman being who is called to get
along with all these things,we've been talking about being a
peacemaker.
As a Christian, that's sayingyou believe that word of God,
(44:29):
you do you need to be able torecognize that this is, this is
the battle we're called to andit has to be.
We have to be willing to thinkof it as a life or death battle.
And you know they can.
They can wipe out us out.
They can say we don't like whatyou're saying and we're going
to burn your house down or shootyou from Across an alleyway
(44:49):
with a high powered rifle,whatever, but the truth stands,
the truth is Marching on right,so let's put the the rubber to
the road.
Folks you know, those of youthat hear this and are thinking
about it share it with otherwhite people that you know and
ask them to just think about it.
Just listen, just think aboutit.
(45:11):
It's not a threat, it's aninvitation, not threatening
anyone's lifestyle.
I'm absolutely not threateninganyone's lifestyle.
I am inviting them to considerthe parameters of their
lifestyle and the narrativesthat they're listening to.
I'm inviting you to considerthat your bias maybe Run steeper
(45:31):
than you even realize.
Maybe, and why?
If it does, why does it?
So that's my soapbox.
I'm I'm done soap boxing fortoday, bro.
Speaker 1 (45:42):
Yeah, man, just and again.
Hopefully we can just continue,just the knowledge over
narratives piece, you know, justreally, just get, just again,
just trying to bring someunderstanding and just take a
look at the person in the mirrorand say Am I being open-hearted
, am I judging people, am Iloving people?
Uh, you know, just, we have toget to that self examination
piece.
(46:02):
You know, and just really, ifthose of us that say we believe
god, again, jesus taught at athird, fourth grade level Are
you actually believing?
Are you trusting in his word?
Are you doing what he say?
Do, because, yes, when thebible tells us to love our
enemies, that's a tough thing todo, right, but the thing is the
bible said do it.
(46:22):
And this is how I've had to cometo deal with it, because, again
, we have the power of the holyspirit to help us in all things.
So it's like, lord, I'm gonnaobey your word, but you got to
change the way I feel about it.
You got to change how I feelyou, you, I'm giving these
emotions to you.
I'm giving this, I'm puttingpride down because, yes, this
(46:43):
thing has hurt my feelings, orwhatever the case may be, but
I'm, I'm just going tocompletely give it to you and,
and, and.
That's where the, the peacecomes in, and that's where you
can really say you know what?
Again, acknowledge where we are.
This is a spiritual thing.
You know, there's aprincipality over this country
right now, and he has a name,and who?
(47:03):
All right, all right, right.
Speaker 2 (47:07):
Well, let's quote Abraham Lincoln too.
Shall we, because there'shardly any.
I don't know if there's anybodyin America, regardless where
you're at, that would argue thatAbraham Lincoln is not a good
man.
But he once said and I'mprobably paraphrasing this, but
it is.
I do not like that man verymuch.
I must get to know him better.
Speaker 1 (47:25):
I preach from one of his speeches one time yeah.
Speaker 2 (47:29):
You know it's it's so compelling as a what if that
was our, our commitment?
You know I do not like that manvery much because there's
plenty of people that arespewing off some pretty Pretty
angry, pretty hateful you knowrhetoric and it makes me not
like them very much.
Speaker 1 (47:45):
But DEI is evil D you .
You will die with DEI, thingslike that.
If again, for the unlearnedPerson, a person will take that
and run with it and hate equity,diversity, equity and inclusion
, I mean, and that's where weare knowledge over narratives,
(48:06):
let's get there.
Speaker 2 (48:07):
Well, my name is Raul brush and you find young man.
Who are you again?
Uh, Antoine Hallman senior anduh, together we are frame of
reference, coming together anduh, I man, I hope, I hope I'm
coming so.
I.
You know these.
These are, I believe, veryimportant, that it is a pleasure
(48:29):
to have you, my brother, totalk with and I can ask you
stupid questions and I hope I, I, uh, I know you receive them
and, uh, you know I get why youthink that I, I understand, you
know, it's just uh, it is ourdeal right Again, when we both
have the desire to have betterunderstanding.
Speaker 1 (48:48):
That's where the growth comes in, because, see,
this is where we are as acountry.
Uh, I like what uh the newbadger football coach said, and
it's something that I've uhactually Start to repeat a lot.
He said like, when I get no, hewas like saying how, when he
came in, of course, a lot ofpeople transferred out and so on
and so forth, and because theydidn't care for the changes, and
(49:10):
you know, and, of course, onething that he said, you know, he
said change is inevitable, butgrowth is optional.
And and so that's what, andthat's what we are right now
Change is inevitable, but growthis optional.
Are you going to growspiritually?
Are you going to growintellectually?
Are you going to grow inunderstanding?
All right, yeah, all right, allright, man.
Speaker 2 (49:34):
Well, thanks, folks for listening to frame of
reference coming together.
Thanks for tuning in, thanksfor taking the time to listen to
us talk and I hope we'vestimulated some conversations
among you and people you comeinto cotton, because that
contact with, because that isour hope and prayer, um, so
hopefully, tune in next time.
We're going to continue thediscussion.
Who knows what stupid things Imight think of To want to talk
(49:56):
about, or if that antonym willcome up to challenge me with,
but I I trust that they will beas important and enlightening.
And what do we call that?
When you're Cohesive, you'rebecoming more and more of a
coalition building or acoalition building conversation.
Speaker 1 (50:14):
There we go, all right, and we're the coalition
is to edify, amen to build up.
Speaker 2 (50:18):
Amen.
So remember growth is optional.
I'll get to see you next time,folks.
Let's have it.
Hey everybody, my name isAntoine Hohman.
Seeing, I'm here with my goodfriend, raul Abreche, and this
is a frame of reference comingtogether.
And of course, you know RaulAbreche, he actually created the
frame of reference podcastyears ago, where they are
talking about various issues.
It started out with the artsand, but then it came to social
issues and now we have, you know, he invited me into this
(00:39):
platform to talk about things ofa, of a black nature, or just
how do we bring the racestogether?
How do we create unity?
How do we bring understanding?
So thus the name of the podcast, frame of reference coming
together.
How are you doing, brother?
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Oh man, you know it's , it's been a week.
You know I mean I can never sayanything, though that even when
close to you, know the stuffyou deal with every day with the
.
I don't know, guys, if you'velistened to this podcast before
you know that my brother Antoinereally deals with some serious
pain issues and and hischaracter yet remains devoted in
(01:18):
service to not only thecommunities around him but to
his wife and family and he isthe real deal when you want to
talk about, you know someonethat is trying to walk the walk
and talk the talk.
So I'm kind of I am just fine.
You know the cold has been alittle bit difficult, but I'm
much more towards cold than I amheat and I am I'm excited about
(01:39):
our talk today.
Every day we have a talk, everytime we get together and just
kind of mall things over.
You know my role in this folksis to just ask questions that I
have and I hope they're the samequestions about you know,
things that you have and I'm.
I really want to understand moreabout the black experience in
in America, because we we seemto have two kind of
(02:01):
diametrically opposed groups offolks in the US right now.
There's there are those thatare acknowledging that there's a
problem with systematic racism,that there's still, there are
issues that have not beenresolved since the early
formation years of this country,and then there are those that
absolutely deny and, you know,honestly get angry about the
(02:24):
suggestion that that does exist,and then that carries people
into even more anger.
And I guess the third group ofpeople are those that are
actively hating on black people,people of color in general.
And if that was not the case,somebody please tell me why.
There's still white supremacistmovements where people are so
(02:45):
convinced that the white way ofliving is under threat,
endangered, that they, you know,rekindle hate on every front
imaginable.
And you know it is.
I don't understand it, folks,because this country is changing
.
It changed when the you knowAmericans came in mass.
(03:06):
It changed when the Irish camein mass.
It changed when the Italianscame in mass and, unfortunately,
the African Americans are blackpeople in our country.
It didn't change.
It got worse for them when theycame, and now, when we're
finally trying to recognize, wehave the mess we have today.
And I want my topic today andthe thing that spurred me to
(03:30):
realize that there is thisdichotomy in ways that I don't
even think about.
And I was early in the week.
I was just on uppers over ourquarterback here in Wisconsin,
the Green Bay Packers.
There is a young gentleman thatis playing for our team right
now that took over for a legend,Aaron Rodgers, and this guy is
(03:52):
just such an inspiration to mebecause not only a great
quarterback and a youngquarterback.
What is he like?
25 years old, I think.
I'm not a big football fan, butJordan is.
Isn't he About that age, 24, 25, yeah.
Okay, and he not only, but nowhe's doing that, but we were
reading during this big snowfallwe had not too long ago.
He was like helping peoplepushing their cars out of snow
(04:15):
banks.
You know he works for the.
He did some significant workwith the Salvation Army over the
Christmas holiday break, wherehe was, you know, signing
autographs.
You know people would givedonations to Salvation Army.
He would sign an autograph forthem.
So you know, no, I don't knowif you've tried to get
signatures, but I'm a Star Trekguide.
William Shatner charges like$400 for an autograph and it
(04:37):
just goes to him, you know so.
So, just, you know, the qualityof the character of the man was
so wonderful and I is sowonderful, and it struck me that
is there a bridge there?
You know, can, can blackathletes and the, when they're
the quality of human being thatthere are, does that cause white
people or give them reason tojust kind of wake up and say,
(04:59):
hey, these guys are heroes.
You know what are.
What am I doing?
Thinking that black people areany different?
You know they're.
They're heroes, they'rewonderful people.
I don't need to see them asblack or white, I just have to
see them as human beings thatare great human beings.
And Antoine, I sent that out toAnno.
I said am I simplifying things?
Of course I am, I'm that kindof guy.
But Antoine said, you know itis interesting, america loves
(05:21):
its black athletes.
You know the Michael Jordan ofthe world you know the Jordan
loves.
But we then will turn around anddisdain a black man at Walmart.
You know we will look at himand see.
You know what's he doing in mythis, whatever.
You know the thoughts, or justbe like, oh, you know, I better
be careful.
Or whatever you know, wonderwhat he's carrying in his
pockets.
(05:41):
You know the thoughts that gothrough people's mind because
they have disdain.
They're they.
All of a sudden the colorbecomes an important thing for
some reason, or you know a placeof judgment, and it is.
It's ripping us apart.
That's that inability to justsay hey, you know, go up and ask
questions.
(06:01):
Hey, man, how's it going?
You know, how are you doingtoday?
Speaker 1 (06:05):
I don't know what is that Well, we got to get to a
place where we are in a space ofknowledge over narratives.
You know, of course.
You know, like, when we take alike, we'll use the Jordan love
example.
Yes, he is a great young manand definitely celebrate his
success, you know, and he's heloves his family and he's
(06:25):
obviously he loves the community, so that's that.
That is a great thing, you know, of course.
You know, when we were talkingabout maybe an earlier podcast,
we're talking about how we findcommonality.
You know, when, when you thinkof, like, say, a black
entertainer, black athlete, youknow, and, of course, like, say,
when we're talking about howthe contrast in treatment, or
(06:46):
the disdain versus theentertainer, versus the common,
no, electrician or whatever, youknow, and it is, it's a matter
of knowledge over narratives,because we, because people say,
ok, the commonality is with him.
Hey, I love Packers and thisyoung man plays for my team and
he is being successful for myteam, so we like him, we love
(07:09):
him.
But also, when we talk aboutlike, say, the black entertainer
, the black athlete, you know,and like, say, the person that
goes by narrative versusactually having the actual
knowledge they have to have thenarrative of, well, look at no
he.
Why?
Why can't everybody?
Why can't all black people belike him?
He worked hard to get to wherehe is and but the thing is you
(07:32):
had I want you to take a pictureof this and just think for
every black successful athlete,you see there's going to be
maybe a few hundred thousandthat didn't make it.
They followed in the samefootsteps.
They worked out the two threetimes a day.
They did everything that wassupposed to in what the world
(07:52):
says to become a successfulathlete or a successful
entertainer.
They did what was right alongthose lines, and so when we see
someone that has actually madeit, you say OK, why can't they
all be like him?
And it's like we all are.
We're just working hard in ourown different professions, or
we're.
The narrative is not all of uswork as hard as that person that
(08:16):
you see on the daily basis onTV or in the entertainment or
sports room, which is just kindof false.
You know for everyone that yousee that has made it in this
success.
For every successful Jordanlove, there's a couple of
hundred thousand young kids thatdidn't make it but followed the
same footsteps.
They desired the collegescholarship.
They, they come from a place ofpoverty, come from a single
(08:38):
family home, become from all allthese different things and they
did everything but no, theydidn't get.
That that scout didn't come totheir neighborhood or their
school, or is always, is justagain.
For every one that made it,there's a few hundred thousand
that didn't.
And it's not to say that we alldon't work hard because we do
and that's just a white or black.
(08:59):
It's just again that narrativeof well, if, why don't they all
try as hard as he did and theywill be all right?
And that's just not the case.
Well, of course, we see.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
Yeah what doesn't that go to?
You know the whole issue towith affirmative action programs
and you know the equal likeright.
You know voting acts.
You know the things that arehopefully leveling the field a
little bit more.
And now there's all of this.
You know well I don't get anybreaks like that.
Why should they get breaks justbecause they're black or
whatever you?
Speaker 1 (09:29):
know Well, again, and this is what we have to have
the knowledge over the narrative.
You know, of course, even goingback to what was being said in
Florida, how, oh, you know theslaves, they actually gained
skills and actually that'strying to put humility on
slavery, that's creating a wholedifferent narrative about the
aspect of slavery and what itwas and what it really did and
(09:51):
how it affects us to this day.
You know, and that's where itis like now.
It's like you is again thisconsistent whitewashing of
history, or this pacifying ofhistory, or just creating this
thing about history as if itdidn't it did.
It's all they want to make itso where it doesn't appear to
(10:15):
have an effect on things todayBecause, like I say, those very
things that were like thesethings were acknowledged at one
point, but now there's an allout attack against them.
You know, of course, like, uh,you got some of the most
powerful people in the world nowsaying you will die with DEI.
(10:35):
You will die with DEI, DEI, ifyou, if you like, they blame,
they plain crash on D, ondiversity, equity and inclusion.
You know you got a.
You know billionaires, therichest man in the world, uh,
elon Musk, you know, sayingyou'll die with DEI, and again,
it's all about, you know, justuh, again this minority rule,
(10:57):
complex.
People think that they're thisuh, replacement theory complex,
and it's just not the case.
It's just.
The world is changing.
The world is evolving.
Yes, you know, there's going tobe more minorities, there's
going to be more non-whitepeople.
There's actually probably morenon-white people or just as much
.
Right now I don't know theexact stats, but yes, this is a.
(11:19):
Instead of embracing this changeand understanding, how can we
get better understanding and howwe can come to a place of
growth and love andunderstanding?
And people are bringing upthese things of hate Cause again
, all these tactics like takingaway voting rights and, uh,
affirmative action in a woman'sright to choose, taking away all
(11:39):
these rights.
Now we're at the next stage ofit, where the threats of
violence, just like in the 30s,40s, 50s.
Now here come the threats ofviolence again, and this is a, a
, a perpetual cycle that we'rein right now.
Dr King, uh, he's, he made a, a,a, a great quote and um, I want
(12:00):
to get it right, but uh,forgive me for the uh
paraphrasing, but he says it'snot what my enemy says to me,
but it's about what mysupporters don't say, and and so
we are still in a space where,you know, we democracy is under
attack.
Voting rights, no common justcommon sense law and even a
(12:22):
various amendments of theconstitution are under attack,
and these and people are awareof it, but they're not saying
anything.
So me, as a black man, uh mecalling it out, crying out about
it, how many times do I tellyou the country is tired of
hearing a black man cry, rightso?
But when we, when we cry aboutit or when we talk about it, you
(12:43):
know what we're, you know whatthey're saying.
Oh, you're exaggerating this,you're exaggerating.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
I had a friend of mine this morning.
Yeah.
I had a friend this morning,that was, we were having
breakfast together and he wassaid that you know well, some,
some slaves were actuallytreated it wasn't so bad.
They were treated really wellby their masters and you know,
they they, you know said that itwasn't too bad.
And I said, wait, whoa, whoa,whoa.
And I almost could not believethis is a wonderful guy.
(13:12):
Okay, this is a very loving,caring guy.
It's been through a whole bunchof just very, very difficult
stuff in his life, you know, andhe knows great disappointment,
knows what it is to be, you know, just economically threatened
and you know, has given of hisheart soul, blah, blah, blah.
Good, good person, right, buthe has been told a bunch of lies
(13:34):
as a white person, that thereit's, it's.
Some black people actuallythought it was not a bad thing
to be a slave and I said, wait,wait a minute, this is.
There is no way, any way, shapeor form, that a black person
ever thought that being a slavewas not so bad, if, if, anything
there might have been.
(13:54):
Hey, today was a good day.
I didn't get beaten today, youknow, thank, you know,
thankfully I did not get beatentoday, but there was the threat
that the day isn't over yet andI still could do something that
would get me beaten, not tomention that you know even
DeSantis is tough about you know.
Well, you know some blackpeople were taught.
You know useful skills that youknow they could take and
actually, you know, benefitthemselves and benefit blah,
(14:16):
blah, blah.
I said, yeah, just step backfrom that a second too.
You weren't have a.
You didn't have a right to.
You know, choose whether or notyou wanted to be a blacksmith
or not.
You were told by your masteryou're going to be a well, you
know a blacksmith and you knowwhat you better be a really good
blacksmith, because I need agood blacksmith, not somebody
that's going to do crappy job onthings and, on top of it, you
(14:39):
weren't.
You didn't have any choice.
You weren't.
You know they're saying youknow well, I really would like
to.
You know and be oh okay.
Well, yeah, that sounds like agood thing too.
Why don't you do that?
And, worse yet, if you tried todo something like just read,
you know, well, I would like tobe able to learn to read too,
because you know I need to readmanuals and how to do and
(15:00):
whatever.
Or I just want to be able toread my Bible.
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,no, no, no.
You can't.
We can't have black peoplereading that.
That's just not acceptable.
So explain that to me.
Explain to me.
You know the narrative that saysit wasn't that bad.
Okay, you know.
If it wasn't so bad, then why?
(15:20):
Why were black people at all,you know, treated like furniture
?
Why were they treated like?
You know?
We could never get away fromthe fact that I own that two
thirds person.
You know it's like.
Really, how can you even get toa place White folks out there,
how can your friends get there?
Try to understand, try, don'ttry to just, you know, yell at
(15:43):
them, but just say you knowthat's really interesting that
you think that.
Why do you think that?
Why do you think that, well, Imean, wait a minute.
But why do you think that anyblack person would think that
that was a good thing, that thatwas okay?
You know they were treatedreally well.
So you know this is just fine.
Do you think any one of them,do you believe that any one of
them would, if, given the chanceto not be a slave, would have
(16:05):
not gone like that to say, yeah,I'll not be a slave.
I'd like to determine with mylife and when I do it and how I
do it.
I'd like that freedom thing youguys talk about but only have
for yourselves, right why?
Speaker 1 (16:20):
Yeah, and of course, even going back to that, that's
a great point there, brother.
And it's like you know, ofcourse, people you know, when
you go, like even back to thedays of slavery, and you had the
house Negro in the field Negro,of course the house Negro had
some, some luxuries excuse methat the field Negro didn't but
(16:41):
what costs did that house Negroget those benefits?
You know, of course, he had toset out the field Negro.
If there was any kind of plansor plots to escape, he would go
tell master or if, and even atthe cost of relationship, you
know, of course, those divideswere just systematically changed
(17:04):
where, yes, you know, of course, you'll see the house Negro get
treated better than the fieldNegro.
And then, of course, the fieldNegro came to despise the house
Negro, and then the house Negromay have developed a complex on
us where, hey, I'm better thanyou.
And then, of course, and thatvery thing has carried on till
today as well, that very thingand that's where it's like I get
(17:28):
envious of, I don't want to sayenvious, but it just I admire
how other races are able tostick together, except black
people, and and it is like, wow,stick together, why can't we be
one voice?
But again, this thing that hasbeen created over centuries put
us at odds with each other.
(17:49):
And I tell you a story.
You know where I used to live.
You know, of course, we do alot of community outreach, right
?
You know we do a lot of thingsin the community.
I was confronted by this personjust randomly, just I love this
person, and then just justbasically attack me out of my
(18:09):
wife, was going to call thepolice, and I was just literally
attacked and was just talkingall these different kinds of
things, and it's like he waslike and I'm like, hey, man,
whatever I ever done to you,I've been nothing but nice to
you.
And then, of course, then wegoing back and forth.
I'm like I'm just because I'mjust stunned at what is
happening in my face at thispoint.
And then, of course, the persongoes oh well, it's good that
(18:32):
you're nice to the community,it's nice that you're good to
the community, but I need you tobe loyal to me.
And I'm like I know the Lordand I hit my Zach words was, I
know the Lord didn't bring mefrom under one situation to come
under another.
And then the person dangles a$12,000 checks to my face, said
(18:52):
if you submit to me, some ofthis could be yours.
And that's when it's so.
Again, those is this is so manylittle bitty, bitty bitty pieces
created within that createsthat crab in a barrel complex,
or you know what I mean.
And so it just.
It goes on and on.
So there's a lot of things thatknow we have to pray down and
(19:14):
fight against.
And you know, of course, whenthe Bible tells us for as much
as up to you, live peaceablywith all men.
Right, that means live for muchas up to you.
That means have you doneeverything you can to get a
better understanding?
Have you done everything youcan to just really put yourself
in that person's shoes?
Have you done everything youcan to relate to that person?
No, for as much as up to you,live peaceably with all men.
(19:38):
And the answer to that I wouldprobably say is no, because
again, people may identify,maybe people may even sympathize
, but when it comes to actuallyknow some work involved, you
know people will get scaredbecause again, what we're seeing
is all out.
We're seeing history repeatitself because of now, like that
(19:59):
Dr King statement I just madeis not what my enemies say but
it's not, it's about the silenceof the people that are supposed
to be with me, and it's likepeople are being threatened into
not talking people and it justthis is where we are.
People are afraid of losingfamily members, people are in
fear of losing relationshipswith friends and family, and so
(20:19):
on and so forth.
You know, and again, it's likewe cry about this all the time.
I think I told you the story inone of our earlier podcasts is
where I had a white friend, youknow, and then, of course, just
so happened, we're downtown,back and forth, we're in the
record stores and all this, andthat didn't one of his friends
come up and there is a course,there's just a light, hello, and
(20:43):
all that.
And then, of course, my wifefriend goes hey, what's going on
with that?
And I'm like, hey, man, I had abad experience with that person
and he chose not to believethat.
And yeah, and so that's what weare.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
Well, you know I have had my own thoughts of.
You know this podcast takes offand the wrong white people
start listening and startfeeling threatened.
You know what we talk about andwhat I say.
You know because I'm not justspeaking.
You know words out of thesouthern end of my body.
You know I'm trying to speaktruly from my heart, you know,
(21:18):
and they are things I trulybelieve.
And then I think but if thesefolks show up at my doorstep and
threaten my family, you knowthey because they're you know,
these are not reasonable people.
For the most part, right, theseare not folks that are acting
and willing to listen to anotherside of an equation.
They are folks that are, just,you know, bent on hate.
(21:39):
And I think to myself am Iprepared for that?
You know how do I prepare forthat?
How do I prepare my family forthat?
I don't think my daughter wouldhave a problem, because the
nature of the things that she'sstudying with you know
multicultural racism and sheactually, as a PhD student, is
talking about critical racetheory and knows exactly how
(22:00):
stupid it is that we get allbent out of shape about critical
race theory being taught inelementary school, because, let
me tell you, you think that highschool and whatnot is boring.
Now it would really bore peopleif you tried to teach them
about critical race theory,because it's really difficult to
get your head around.
It takes a lot of thinking.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
I have the book and I'm still like I have the book
and I've been trying to getthrough it forever, but it's a
lot to digest, yeah yeah, so yesyou would not Really really
cool and it's like yeah, and ofcourse I had to have a friend of
mine, percy Brown.
He basically had to simplify thebook for me.
It's a study of systems, right,you know, and that's where?
(22:38):
And that's where it's like, oh,now I can kind of wrap my head
around it.
It's a study of systems, right,and yes, and these systems do
call out, the study of thesesystems do expose the systemic
and systematic racism that is inthis country, and but like you
were just saying, though, likeyou know, when this podcast
takes off and people start tohate on you for whatever reason,
(23:01):
you know, because you're sayingsomething that they don't want
to hear.
But you got to understand, youknow people hate truth and you
know people's truth is based onhow they feel.
And when you are speakingtruths like this, you know the
enemy, our adversary, the devil,hates it, no question.
And what we teach, and what weteach in our ministry, we have
(23:22):
to understand that this isspiritual.
The Bible clearly tells us theweapons of our warfare are not
carnal but might be, through God, to the pulling down the
strongholds.
That's a second Corinthians 10,around verse three to five.
But then you know Ephesians six, around verse 10 or so.
It says we do not wrestleagainst flesh and blood, but
against principalities, powers,against rulers of the darkness
(23:44):
of this age and againstspiritual host, the wickedness
and heavenly places.
That means that this is aspiritual thing.
Hate is a spirit.
You know the spirit of division, you know it's a spirit and
when we can really get past,that's when we can actually
really start to see, you know,the kingdom of God start to
really manifest itself on earthas it is in heaven.
(24:07):
You know, love people, right,and that's where it because,
again, because, again.
How many times have I told youI blame the church on a lot of
instances?
Yeah, this thing starts, itstarts in the church.
Yeah, and you know where.
You know, like you got.
You know these evangelicalchurches.
They now have this Christianmasculinity thing, this thing
going where now it's okay for achurch to buy guns and say we're
(24:33):
waiting on some type of civilwar?
No, that's not right, that's aspiritual, that that's a demonic
spirit.
You know, because if we'reactually talking about the love
of Christ, he loved people, heforgave people and he gave his
life for people.
He gave to people.
He loved for, gave and gavethat's the very culture of
Christ.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
He would be the chairman of the DEI committees
throughout the country.
He would be.
That would be look at Christ'swords, look at the stuff in red
guys.
That that is like straight outof DEI philosophy and DEI.
You know goals and objectives.
Because he was not.
He didn't sit there and say, oh,here's this woman that's, you
(25:13):
know, sitting at the Well, andyou know she said, like seven
husbands or whatever he, youknow he, he already knew that
before he sat down next to her.
You know he knew that before hesat down.
And yet he was there to tellher about living water.
He was there to tell her abouthis role in saving her and
saving anyone like her.
He had prostitutes that werepart of his ministry that were
(25:36):
following him.
He had tax collectors who atthat point in time, you know it,
tax collectors aren'tparticularly loved right now,
but they were really hated backthen, you know so in and then
the you know the common peoplewere fishermen.
You know that he was all aboutdiversity and inclusion and
equity.
There was no.
You know, the people that hehad issues with were the people
(25:59):
that were Pharisees andSadducees that they were like oh
no, no, no, we can't have partof that, that they don't have
the learning that I have in thedeeper Understanding of the word
that I have, you know.
I mean they didn't speak withtheir kind of brouche accent.
Obviously you get my pointright.
So, where, where is what's thedeal?
You know.
(26:19):
So you think about in the lastdays that if it were possible,
even the elect would be deceived, will be.
And I think about, you know, Idon't know if I want to be or
can't.
You know, when I go to thethink of am I the elect?
Am I the elect that that'stalking about?
Because if I am the elect,praise God, but if I'm also the
elect to whole already, you knowI help me not be deceived, help
(26:42):
me not be what Dr King eventalked about, to the greatest
obstacle that I believe he hetalks about, like in the last
Sermon he had before theshooting in Memphis that he, the
thing that he was mostconcerned about was white,
moderate America, just to whatyou're saying.
You know that they, they are thepeople that you know, we're the
friends that were marchingalong with them but yet, when
(27:03):
push came to shove, would theyhave the fortitude, the
commitment, the, the, you knowpassionate, you know commitment
overall to this not being rightto stand up and potentially lose
it all, you know, potentiallydie, you know, and to think of
it as being anything other thanstanding on the word of Christ
and standing on, if I'm gonnacall myself A Christian, then I
(27:27):
have to be able to lay down mylife for another, and if I don't
get it, yeah, and you know, andAgain it's like, and it ain't
nothing but the love of God, thelove of Jesus, that allows,
just speaking for myself, youknow, as a black man in this
country, to get through whatwe're getting through.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
You know, course, because I've made the decision
Okay, lord, I'm gonna obey yourword and of course, in the
course, when we talk about youknow God's word, a lot of times
people, yes, you can go, you canget all theological and deep
with it, but a lot of Jesustaught at a third, fourth grade
level.
So His words are pretty plain.
You know, it's just a matter.
(28:08):
Do you want to do it?
You know, like when he says youknow, like in his first sermon,
sermon on the mount.
You know when he says blessedare the peacemakers, for they
shall be called sons of God.
Blessed are the peacemakers.
Remember that scripts I justsaid a few minutes ago is a
Romans 12, around verse 10 or 11or something like that.
For as much as up to you, livepeaceably with all men.
(28:31):
So have you done everything youcan to live peaceably with all
men?
No, blessed are the peacemaker,so they shall be called sons of
God, because Jesus himself saidhe is peace.
He is the prince of peace andso, if any and it's like if the
church is creating discord whatdo you think is gonna happen in
the world?
Because when he said even guysthe leg will be deceived, he was
(28:53):
talking about everyone who,even the people that accept him
as their Lord and Savior, willbe deceived.
And we see that now.
Because you know what, when wetalking about you know Christian
nationalism no, that's whitenationalism.
You can mask it intoevangelical.
You can.
You can say you can mask ithowever you want.
It comes down to simply hate.
You're not a peacemaker.
You're going against the veryword of God that you're saying,
(29:16):
that you're preaching andteaching.
You're going against it.
And that's what Jesus had.
Is that's who he cussed out themost?
He's like whoa.
Do you scribes and Phariseesand hypocrites?
Right?
You know, and that's who hecussed out the most.
And that's what we are rightnow.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
Can I ask a question because you're making me think
of something again?
I keep thinking of it, notasking you.
When I see black men in thevideo recordings of black men at
January 6, you know they're onthe Capitol and they're fighting
amongst all of these peoplethat are, you know, trying to
tear down, you know, the wholeelection process, trying to
undermine the fair and equitableand elected, you know,
(29:53):
transition to power.
Are those black men and womenand I don't know that there were
a lot, I mean, you see, youknow, interspersed throughout
the crowd?
Are they today's equivalent ofa house Negro?
Speaker 1 (30:04):
No, they choose to believe what they choose to
believe.
And again it's like again,that's where the cup, the, what
we feel like.
This is how I see it, you know.
It's like a lot of a poor oreven middle-class Americans are
simply being deceived by liesand, of course, those a few
Remnants of black people thatyou see sprinkled in that crowd,
(30:27):
they chose to believe that lie,you know.
And of course, the field andhouse Negro comment no, that's
just the one who is in aposition, but he doesn't want to
get, he don't want you, hedon't want the field Negro to
come into position.
That's a and so he'll, he'llDefame, blast and whatever you
want to call it.
And and that's just where it is.
(30:48):
And, of course, there thatdisdain, because you know a lot
of people just hate the favorthat's gonna be on your life,
point blank you know how canthey, though, not realize the,
the movement, the folks thatthey're surrounded with are?
Speaker 2 (31:02):
I'm not surprised they're not getting punched.
You know that.
You know that that there's nota recognition that I'm aligning
myself with, all of the thingsthat my people are Are fighting
against, and maybe it's whatyou're talking about, that we
can't, that black people can'tseem to be United in an effort
that they're just there.
Isn't that cohesion?
(31:23):
You know, pervasive cohesion Isthat, if that one, I'm just
trying to get my head aroundlike it doesn't seem possible to
me.
It's like, you know, it justdoesn't make any sense.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
It's, it's it's again , again, just from my eyeball
and from my perspective, is it'sall spiritual, you know, and
again it's like this Look at me,spirit, look at what I'm doing,
look at me, look at what I'mdoing, and then it's like if you
see someone else doingsomething similar, you're gonna
shoot it down or Defame it oryou know, you're just gonna
crush it, try to crush it,because you want to be the only
(31:57):
Black voice in the room or youwant to be the only voice that
speaks for this people in theroom, and you see that a lot,
and that's just not a just inblack communities, but on white
ones as well.
In every community you're gonnahave, you're gonna have
playmakers and you're gonna haveplayer haters.
You know, right, right, right.
And and you know if you, if yousee someone making a play, and
(32:17):
then thing is it's like, andthen you see the humbleness and
the humility part of it, youknow it's like A lot of people
hate that.
And again, because again it'sspiritual, because it ain't it,
ain't you that they're hating,they hate the spirit that's
within you and that's where,like you know, we preach and
teach this bible plainly andjust say, hey, understand it,
this thing is spiritual.
(32:39):
You know, the bible says ablessed those who persecute you.
Blessed are those who arepersecuted.
And you know, for righteousnesssake, and that means if, if all
this opposition comes up, thatmeans I must be doing something
right.
I take it as that.
But you know, one pastor saidthis.
He's like, when people startcoming against you, the first
(32:59):
person you need to look at isyourself.
You say okay, what did I do tobring this on?
And then not only do you justpray about it, but you pray and
then you wait to get an answerfrom God.
You wait on the holy spirit togive you an answer and then, if
that reveals something wrong inyou, you go and correct it.
You know, it's like I said,it's a grudge or adversary,
quickly, unless you know heturned you over to the judge and
(33:21):
you get thrown in jail andyou'll be there to you pay every
last penny, you know.
So it's like if, if it's,there's always a, you know, a
self-examination piece toeverything and and so.
But when things come up againstyou, when you when this given
to you to hey, all you're doingis what I told you to do.
Because when we are walking inobedience to God, our obedience
to God is going to offend otherpeople point blank.
(33:43):
You know, because they, a lotof people, know what they're
supposed to be doing and justwon't do it.
And so when they see you doingwhat they know they're supposed
to be doing, they're gonna hatethat and so, and and again.
That just that goes, uh, that'sjust transcendent Against
people as a nature, as a culture.
You know, as as just as theworld we live in, and so, but
(34:05):
when we're talking about thisnarrative of you know the white
that a black black in americaexperience, you know it.
You know it's like you can doeverything, that's right, you
know again, but you're gonna bejudged based on how you dress.
You're gonna be judged based onyou know how you talk.
You know there's a lot of goodyoung christian men.
Like when you go to a placelike chicago, right, uh, our uh,
(34:28):
our, our uh home church, or ouruh Pastor, our covering pastor,
john f hannah, at new lifecovenant church, southeast, when
we go down there, you'll seeyoung men.
Yes, they got there, they gotthe pan sagging, they got the
braze, they got the holy genes,but they are young, devout men
and women of god, and but yetthey'll be judged in the world
(34:51):
based or by other Christiansbased on how they appear.
And then, of course, like Ithink I told you about how, like
the doctor here in green bay,you know he rolls up, you know
he looked like a the commonperson, but if you just look at
him on the outside you would notknow he was a doctor and that's
what we are, you know.
Again, it's like, uh, we needto get to loving people versus
(35:12):
judging people and judging by itwas the whole thing.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
You know, don't judge a book by its cover.
Right, right and you Right, goahead.
Speaker 1 (35:23):
No, no, no, and just again, like a going back to the
original part of ourconversation, you know, like,
when you see a black athlete,you know, for every one
successful black athlete thatyou see on the national stage,
there's a few hundred thousandof them that did not make it.
They followed the samefootsteps, they did everything
they were told, they trained asthey were told and did
everything they were told.
It just didn't happen for them,for whatever reason injury, uh,
(35:46):
look at the draw.
You know it.
Just, it just didn't happen.
And then that narrative againcomes up as to where, oh well,
if they worked hard as he worked, they all are be well off.
And it's like a lot of peopleare working very hard with what
they were born into.
You know, whatever they wereborn, it's a lot of good hearted
people that want to Get out ofwhere they are.
(36:09):
They're just hoping for anopportunity.
You know, they hoping that thebus route would start to run
through their community.
No, more often they are hoping.
You know, yes, if, uh, I would.
You know, like, again goingback to what we were talking
about no months ago, there's alot of uh people that would love
to get off where fair becausethey they can make more money
(36:29):
off where.
Fair if they had Help withchild care.
And in the course it's like youhave to sacrifice one or the
other.
The man can't be in the house.
Either you take this welfareand and stay at home, or you you
take your chances on your ownwith, you know, two, three
children.
You go get a job, no, at 15, 16an hour and good luck with
(36:49):
insurance, you know right.
Speaker 2 (36:52):
Well, good luck with you know, trying to watch your
kids and keep them on a messshift you know and good luck
with you know, even the.
I don't know if people would,just as you say, try to
understand, try to ask questions, try to really really get a
handle on it.
I mean I, I keep thinking likestories that I hear of a.
(37:12):
There's a young black man up inBaraboo, you know small town,
what 4,000, 8,000 people in westBaraboo and you know Baraboo
combined.
He, he got to the point wherehe, whenever he was waiting for
a stoplight, he would step backfrom the corner because he got
tired of being spit on by whiteguys driving by in cars or
(37:34):
taking you know corners.
And I thought wow kidding me andyou know you said no, you know
you get spit at and spit on acouple of times.
That's enough to make yourealize, hey, I better just step
away from the corner here, waitfor the light from there.
You know, show me anywhere.
Show me anywhere where that?
That is something that anywhite person anywhere in the
(37:56):
united states has to worry about.
I mean, I would like to know ifthere is somebody, and I would
like to know how they feel aboutthat, and if this can happen in
small town America, where elseis it happening?
Speaker 1 (38:07):
I don't know and and again it's like into the to the
Uncompromising ear, that wassound as an exaggeration.
You know what I mean.
If, if you didn't really knowyou, it'll sound as an
exaggeration.
And and that's what we got toget.
To the knowledge overnarratives piece.
You know, of course, all thesedifferent narratives are trying
(38:29):
to be established and created inthis country, but we have to,
and the thing is, people thatare fighting for rights, people
that Know, as we speak up onthese topics and subjects, we
have to stay prayed up and like,lord, don't help, help us to,
not to grow where we are welldoing, because we can yell at
the top of our voice and nothingis being done.
(38:52):
And I mean, and thing is isthere's no change and the thing
is and it's like you can't blamethe and I don't blame the
president, because I and it'slike, and this is where a lot of
narratives happen, also becausethe people are Currently
constantly blaming the presidentand whoever else.
And that's where, where we say,knowledge over narratives, we
(39:15):
need the people need to learnthe actual, just basics of
politics.
You know the legislative system, the judicial system and the
executive branch of thegovernment and how they work,
because, again, it's easy topoint the finger and say, okay,
you're not doing this, that andthe other, but not understanding
that the votes are needed inboth of these houses to actually
get to a desk to be signed, andso when Something's being done
(39:40):
or not being done, automaticallywe just say, okay, and this is
like white people as well asblack people.
Well, he, such and such ain'tdoing this, such and such ain't
doing that, because you got thisconstant bickering.
But you got a small fraction ofpeople within government that
are Basically acting andthinking the way that we're
describing today.
They are, their hearts are fullof hate, they have this
(40:03):
replacement theory thing intheir hearts and and so they're
fighting all these different.
They're fighting Justice andequality on every angle.
You know, and it's like I know,when you hear about like say,
okay, abortion is a big issue,right.
And then, of course, you hearall these states like, uh, ohio,
kansas, uh, florida, they arefighting, they got the right,
(40:26):
they got the bill right fortheir right to get an abortion
right on their elections ticketsor whatever, right, they got
these things.
But it's like, when will youstop electing the officials that
are going to vote and try tocircumvent the very thing that
you are trying, the right thatyou're trying to fight for you,
but yet you'll turn around andvote for the very person that's
going to circumvent the thingthat you're fighting for.
(40:46):
And so that's just again whereunlearned people, uh, you know,
poor white people, poor blackpeople, we shoot ourselves in
the foot.
We vote against our own bestinterests because we've been
manipulated, we've been liedupon.
You know, of course, like, uh,that book that we shared last
week, um, the kingdom, power andthe glory, and that gentleman,
uh think it was like tim albison, time albison, but whatever, he
(41:09):
was just talking about thosethings.
How it just these very things.
You know how even evangelicalsare being misled.
They're taking an issue likeabortion because remember, way
back when, even in the souththey were four, a lot of pastors
were for abortion.
It became political.
It became political in the 60s,in the 60s, 70s and 80s and so
(41:33):
on and so forth.
It became a political issue.
And then, of course, when thispolitical issue kind of a lot of
people in the church adaptedthis political issue and then it
became a good versus evil issue.
And then so every even if youjust take now, we're in a space
where, okay, abortion is eviland anyone that stands for it is
evil.
And but just think about this,everything that the other group
(41:55):
stands for is evil as well.
Oh, equality, that's evil.
Voting rights, that's evil, it,it.
And this is where, again, I, Iknow my.
I'm like, lord, help me, loveyour church, because these
jugglers are acting up.
Speaker 2 (42:16):
I bet we better wrap this podcast up because my blood
pressure is through the roofright now.
Um, no, folks just did I dothat?
No, no, this whole thing,because I, you know, I've had
this conversation.
I talked with the man on myother podcast his frame of
reference, profiles andleadership talked with a young
man, uh, who lives in Kiev,ukraine, right now.
(42:40):
And you know I can't imaginewhat those, those people are
going through right now.
You know we've never had thatkind of of threat to our nation
on our soil like they have had,you know.
And the number of people thathave been lost in that war, um,
the number, the destructionthat's happened he and I were,
we're talking about that.
You know where do things gowrong?
And he said it.
I think it goes back to askingwhy that if we stop being
(43:04):
curious about, you know, whythings are happening, why do
people believe the things thatthey do?
Why, why, why and I'm just, I'mencouraging people that are
listening to this Just look atthese situations.
You know, even if you'rethinking about the, the guy
being spat upon standing in aquarter, and if you're, you're
(43:24):
thinking to yourself oh, thatcouldn't have happened.
He's just telling that becausehe wants people to feel sorry
for him, because he's black.
Wow, whatever.
I mean, I can imagine thingsthat could go through people's
health, but I do want, I wantyou to stop yourself for a
second to and say but what if?
What if it did happen?
What if it did happen?
Are you willing to considerthat it could happen?
(43:44):
Are you considering the factthat, if it happened, why could
it did it?
Would it happen?
And you know it's.
It's worth considering and itis something that we need to.
A significant majority of usneed to say the country that
will ask those questions, thatwill say that will confront
(44:08):
things that will not make youfeel good, but they're not going
to not make you feel goodbecause you're white.
Stop that narrative in yourmind, right?
I don't know they're going tomake you not feel good because,
as a human being, as a humanhuman being who is called to get
along with all these things,we've been talking about being a
peacemaker.
As a Christian, that's sayingyou believe that word of God,
(44:29):
you do you need to be able torecognize that this is, this is
the battle we're called to andit has to be.
We have to be willing to thinkof it as a life or death battle.
And you know they can.
They can wipe out us out.
They can say we don't like whatyou're saying and we're going
to burn your house down or shootyou from Across an alleyway
(44:49):
with a high powered rifle,whatever, but the truth stands,
the truth is Marching on right,so let's put the the rubber to
the road.
Folks you know, those of youthat hear this and are thinking
about it share it with otherwhite people that you know and
ask them to just think about it.
Just listen, just think aboutit.
(45:11):
It's not a threat, it's aninvitation, not threatening
anyone's lifestyle.
I'm absolutely not threateninganyone's lifestyle.
I am inviting them to considerthe parameters of their
lifestyle and the narrativesthat they're listening to.
I'm inviting you to considerthat your bias maybe Run steeper
(45:31):
than you even realize.
Maybe, and why?
If it does, why does it?
So that's my soapbox.
I'm I'm done soap boxing fortoday, bro.
Speaker 1 (45:42):
Yeah, man, just and again.
Hopefully we can just continue,just the knowledge over
narratives piece, you know, justreally, just get, just again,
just trying to bring someunderstanding and just take a
look at the person in the mirrorand say Am I being open-hearted
, am I judging people, am Iloving people?
Uh, you know, just, we have toget to that self examination
piece.
(46:02):
You know, and just really, ifthose of us that say we believe
god, again, jesus taught at athird, fourth grade level Are
you actually believing?
Are you trusting in his word?
Are you doing what he say?
Do, because, yes, when thebible tells us to love our
enemies, that's a tough thing todo, right, but the thing is the
bible said do it.
(46:22):
And this is how I've had to cometo deal with it, because, again
, we have the power of the holyspirit to help us in all things.
So it's like, lord, I'm gonnaobey your word, but you got to
change the way I feel about it.
You got to change how I feelyou, you, I'm giving these
emotions to you.
I'm giving this, I'm puttingpride down because, yes, this
(46:43):
thing has hurt my feelings, orwhatever the case may be, but
I'm, I'm just going tocompletely give it to you and,
and, and.
That's where the, the peacecomes in, and that's where you
can really say you know what?
Again, acknowledge where we are.
This is a spiritual thing.
You know, there's aprincipality over this country
right now, and he has a name,and who?
(47:03):
All right, all right, right.
Speaker 2 (47:07):
Well, let's quote Abraham Lincoln too.
Shall we, because there'shardly any.
I don't know if there's anybodyin America, regardless where
you're at, that would argue thatAbraham Lincoln is not a good
man.
But he once said and I'mprobably paraphrasing this, but
it is.
I do not like that man verymuch.
I must get to know him better.
Speaker 1 (47:25):
I preach from one of his speeches one time yeah.
Speaker 2 (47:29):
You know it's it's so compelling as a what if that
was our, our commitment?
You know I do not like that manvery much because there's
plenty of people that arespewing off some pretty Pretty
angry, pretty hateful you knowrhetoric and it makes me not
like them very much.
Speaker 1 (47:45):
But DEI is evil D you .
You will die with DEI, thingslike that.
If again, for the unlearnedPerson, a person will take that
and run with it and hate equity,diversity, equity and inclusion
, I mean, and that's where weare knowledge over narratives,
(48:06):
let's get there.
Speaker 2 (48:07):
Well, my name is Raul brush and you find young man.
Who are you again?
Uh, Antoine Hallman senior anduh, together we are frame of
reference, coming together anduh, I man, I hope, I hope I'm
coming so.
I.
You know these.
These are, I believe, veryimportant, that it is a pleasure
(48:29):
to have you, my brother, totalk with and I can ask you
stupid questions and I hope I, I, uh, I know you receive them
and, uh, you know I get why youthink that I, I understand, you
know, it's just uh, it is ourdeal right Again, when we both
have the desire to have betterunderstanding.
Speaker 1 (48:48):
That's where the growth comes in, because, see,
this is where we are as acountry.
Uh, I like what uh the newbadger football coach said, and
it's something that I've uhactually Start to repeat a lot.
He said like, when I get no, hewas like saying how, when he
came in, of course, a lot ofpeople transferred out and so on
and so forth, and because theydidn't care for the changes, and
(49:10):
you know, and, of course, onething that he said, you know, he
said change is inevitable, butgrowth is optional.
And and so that's what, andthat's what we are right now
Change is inevitable, but growthis optional.
Are you going to growspiritually?
Are you going to growintellectually?
Are you going to grow inunderstanding?
All right, yeah, all right, allright, man.
Speaker 2 (49:34):
Well, thanks, folks for listening to frame of
reference coming together.
Thanks for tuning in, thanksfor taking the time to listen to
us talk and I hope we'vestimulated some conversations
among you and people you comeinto cotton, because that
contact with, because that isour hope and prayer, um, so
hopefully, tune in next time.
We're going to continue thediscussion.
Who knows what stupid things Imight think of To want to talk
(49:56):
about, or if that antonym willcome up to challenge me with,
but I I trust that they will beas important and enlightening.
And what do we call that?
When you're Cohesive, you'rebecoming more and more of a
coalition building or acoalition building conversation.
Speaker 1 (50:14):
There we go, all right, and we're the coalition
is to edify, amen to build up.
Speaker 2 (50:18):
Amen.
So remember growth is optional.
I'll get to see you next time,folks.
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