June 20, 2025 • 59 mins
Jim Carlough, accomplished business strategist and author, shares his six pillars of effective leadership, emphasizing integrity as the foundation that makes all other leadership qualities possible. Through compelling stories from his 30-year career, he demonstrates how integrity combined with empathy creates environments where people thrive even through difficult transitions.
• Integrity means staying on the center line of your ethical code, never straying too far left or right
• The current social media environment encourages people to "throw grenades and hide" without accountability
• When leading a team through job eliminations, Jim made three promises that resulted in the highest employee satisfaction scores across a 20,000-person company
• Leadership requires consistently asking yourself if your actions benefit you at the expense of others
• True leadership is developed through experience and reflection, not something people are born with
• The foundation of leadership is making others better, which ultimately makes you better
• Empathy and integrity work together to create trust, without which a leader cannot succeed
Connect with Jim Carlough to learn more about the six pillars of leadership and how they can transform your organization and develop future leaders.
Thanks for listening. Please check out our website at www.forsauk.com to hear great conversations on topics that need to be talked about. In these times of intense polarization we all need to find time to expand our Frame of Reference.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Welcome to Frame of Reference informed, intelligent
conversations about the issuesand challenges facing everyone
in today's world.
In-depth interviews to help youexpand and inform your frame of
reference.
Now here's your host, raoulLabrèche.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Well, welcome.
Welcome everyone to anotheredition.
We're in Season 8 now.
Can you believe it?
Season 8 of Frame of Referenceand this is our Profiles in
Leadership portion of thepodcast that we've done over
time, and I can't believe it.
You know, it seems like well, Iguess it's been hundreds of
interviews.
So, of course, time went byquickly, but I'm psyched today.
(00:42):
I've been doing a number of ourframe of reference coming
together broadcasts with AntoineHolman, but you know, I'm kind
of getting back into the foldhere with doing some of the
interviews with folks around thecountry with different
expertises and the guy thatyou're going to meet today,
maybe you've met him already.
I'm not going to be allgrandiose and think it's all
about me.
(01:02):
That's where you first saw him.
No, hopefully you know aboutJim.
All grandiose and thinking it'sall about me, that's where you
first saw him.
No, hopefully you know aboutJim because Jim Carlo is a
fascinating, fascinating man andI can tell you that I don't
even know him, but I can tellfrom the things that I've read,
just from his bio, that he saidI get bios from people before I
put them onto the website andJim just has this personality
(01:25):
that comes through right awayand I'm excited.
If you can't tell I'm excited,then you don't listen or watch
this podcast much, because whenI get this going right away, you
know we're all in trouble.
So but, jim, jim Carlo, thankyou so much for being with us
today.
How are you today?
Speaker 3 (01:42):
I am great and I am just pleased to be here and I
love your excitement becausethat's just going to make me
more excited and I think we'regoing to have fun.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Well, I hope so.
You know, cal Darnit, it'sFriday late afternoon here in
Cheese State, wisconsin, andLord knows that there's enough
things in the world right now tojust sit back and go.
Oh, woe is me.
Oh, that's awful.
Oh, did you hear what happened?
I just am tired of it.
I think there is so much worthcelebrating in life.
There is so much worthcelebrating in this country that
(02:16):
we live in that is so polarizedright now.
I get it Lots of problems.
I'm not going to try to, youknow, eat an ostrich with my
hand in the sand.
But I'm not going to try to,you know, eat an ostrich with my
head in the sand.
But, goodness gracious people,come on, make America great
again.
How about just being greatAmericans again, period.
And we've got two of them righthere.
I'm putting myself in that clubwith Jim.
But, jim, you know, one of thethings I like to do to start
(02:42):
things off is to do a little bitof my favorite things, and so
this is really a kind of aRorschach team, if that's a word
thing, where we just kind ofI'll throw stuff out and I ask
you know what's your favorite?
And you go, and if you're wrong, you're wrong.
If you're right, if you'reright, if you say something that
you think might get you introuble, just come clean on it,
man, just come clean, okay.
So all right.
So here we go.
First thing, what's yourfavorite pie?
Speaker 3 (03:04):
My favorite pie P-I-E .
Speaker 2 (03:07):
Mm-hmm Not your favorite pie, like you know math
.
No, your favorite pie thatmm-mm, like you go on and say
something about this.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
I got to try that Lemon meringue.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
Lemon meringue.
Really, you know, I think, andall the people I've asked that
question, I think you may be thefirst lemon meringue had a
couple of key lines, closestthing to that.
But lemon meringue, what about?
What's about a lemon meringuethat you like so much?
Speaker 3 (03:32):
You know, it was this .
Now my mother listens to thisbroadcast.
We're in real trouble.
My mom, my mom, god bless heris 100 and still bakes.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
Oh my gosh Really.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
And growing up, everyone loved her apple pie.
Okay, except me, she would haveto buy a store-bought Mrs
Smith's apple pie for me to eatit.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
Really, oh my God, I'm surprised she didn't whip
you.
My grandma LaRouche would neverhave taken that from me.
Speaker 3 (04:08):
So.
So I don't know what it was,whether it was the nutmeg or the
cinnamon or what it was, butnow, everything else my mom
baked I loved, but for whateverreason.
Now I think my wife cured me ofthat because she told me she's
never buying a Mrs Smith's applepie, and so I do eat.
My wife cured me of thatbecause she told me she's never
buying a Mrs Smith's apple pie,and so I do eat my wife's apple
pie.
But I always like as a kid Iliked lemon ices, I liked lemon
(04:36):
meringue pie, I liked on mybirthday I wanted a lemon-filled
cake.
Okay, and I don't know why, butit was, but lemon was my
favorite kind of cake thing,although my favorite ice cream
was strawberry, go figure.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
You know the human body and especially the taste
buds who can protect it right?
So how about a favorite artist?
And that could be?
We could make that any art form, okay, sculpture, whatever you
want to go with, but you're anartist.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
I'm not really an art person, but I'm going to put
music in the art category thatworks and I'm kind of polar
opposite here.
I grew up a Springsteen fanbecause I'm originally a New
Jersey boy, but now I've livedin Texas for 34 years and I'm
(05:31):
sort of a country boy.
It's going to happen.
And the two channel buttons inmy pickup truck Texas obviously
that are worn the most are theSpringsteen channel on XM radio
and the new country station thehighway on the only two buttons
(05:52):
that get used.
In fact, I should I shouldprobably just reprogram
everything to one of those twostations.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
Sure, that'd be an interesting Spotify list.
You know, to have to put thosetwo artists in and see what you
get.
I started doing a thing withthem where it's the AI DJ.
So I've got this.
You know DJ X here or whatever,and he's amazingly sounds a lot
like a real DJ would, but hemixes stuff from all the
(06:18):
different songs I listen to andI swear there's some AI someone
going.
What the heck is with this guy.
He listens to what Contus and,you know, springsteen.
I don't get it.
That should not be happening inthe world.
But you know what are you goingto do?
So how about?
do you have a favorite song then, seeing as you have two great
genres there to play with?
Speaker 3 (06:39):
You know, I don't only because there's so many
that I could point to, and itwould depend on probably the day
or time or my mental state ofwhen the question is asked, and
I know you want to go down anddig deeper into that one, but
(07:04):
anyway.
So I have a very diverse tastein music and I think if someone
was to, if I was to put myiTunes on in a car and just have
it shuffle, I think peoplewould ask to get out of the car
at some point because theywouldn't know what's coming on
(07:26):
next.
And I'm sincere, because therecould be a song from the 50s
coming on.
There could be a song from the60s coming on, there could be
Joni Mitchell coming on, whoknows?
Speaker 2 (07:41):
Yeah, I think you and I would be able to go on a long
distance journey together,because that's pretty much where
my head is at.
With music too, I'm amazed too.
I'll tell you.
I'm spiritual in a lot of ways,but the one thing that does hit
me regularly is because I do alot of shuffling with things.
It seems to me that there havebeen multiple occasions I know
(08:04):
there have been multipleoccasions in my life where I am
doing something and just have myheadphones on and a piece of
music comes on that is exactlythe right piece of music for
that moment and, you know, hasthe lyrics that I need to
remember again and to thinkthrough again.
So music, you know, I, I reallysomeday would like to have some
(08:24):
sort of a class workshop forpeople that don't think music is
very important and try tounlock it for them, because it
is just I see these things withthese guys that play guitar and
the animals come up to them, youknow, from these wildlife
refuges and you think there'ssomething wild going on there.
So how about a favoritehistoric personality, ronald
(08:48):
Reagan?
Ronald Reagan, any particularthings that stand out?
I mean, reaganomics is part ofit, but gosh.
Speaker 3 (09:00):
So one of his favorite things was humor, which
is one of my pillars.
But more importantly, he'sprobably in my personal view
limited personal view probablythe last great president we had
that was able to unite two sidesof the aisle.
We are so diverse from thattoday and and if we really want
(09:20):
to make America great again, Ithink we have to bring Ronald
Reagan back.
I think we're at that point andironically, he was a Democrat
for many, many years and thenbecame a Republican, and to me
(09:41):
that sort of fits my mentalityof we all need to get together,
right, right.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
Yeah, it's such an interesting thing for me when I
think about it.
I've always considered myselfto be independent, primarily
because I'm educationally andartistically much more aligned
with Democrats, you know, interms of the.
You know those kinds ofunderstandings of the world and
the problems of the world.
But I'm conservative infinancial things and you know
(10:13):
I'm all for programs that willdo things.
But there's a part of me thatsays, yeah, but how are we going
to pay for it?
You know, at the end of the day, how are we going to make
things?
How are we going to not makethings worse by doing that?
And Reagan, I think you knowhe's a great example of somebody
that came from very humblebeginnings.
I mean, he was a lifeguard,right, you know, as a kid
growing up and then to start inradio and you know to do be in
(10:35):
World War and be able to do allthe videos and whatnot that he
did, or movies that he did forfolks.
It just was a.
He's a fascinating guy ingeneral and they call him the
great communicator, right,because he had that ability to
just get yeah and, and I had theopportunity he spoke at my
college graduation.
(10:56):
Seriously.
Speaker 3 (10:57):
Yes, I'm a graduate.
I'm a graduate of Seton HallUniversity in New Jersey.
Ok, and?
And he was invited, and whilewe wait, and also on the day
this was Pearl Bailey, pearlBailey, yes, and then they had
the governor of New Jersey atthe time, who was Tom Keene, who
(11:20):
, my cousin, ran his politicalcampaigns so a little connection
there.
And we had to wait for thepresident.
And as we're waiting around andeverybody's up on stage and
we're waiting for thehelicopters to come in and then
the president to shuffle in,somehow Pearl Bailey got the
(11:41):
idea that she should get up andstart singing and she, just off
the cuff, got up and startedsinging.
Wow, and when the president'shelicopters landed she didn't
stop.
He came up on stage and joinedher.
(12:01):
Oh, wow, yes, wow, yes.
But you know, isn't that Igraduated?
Yeah, and I graduated in 83.
And if you go back to the late70s and early 80s, there were
there's some problem financialtimes there and finding a job
getting out of college.
He told us the stories of whenhe had to walk with shoes which
(12:24):
had broken soles on them fivemiles to an interview at a radio
station and the one thing Iremembered he said was look, I
understand it's hard to get ajob right now, but take any job
because it's easier to getanother job if you have one
(12:47):
already.
And you know that has stuckwith me.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
Yeah, that has stuck with me.
It's hard to argue with thatkind of advice, right?
I mean, I remember taking a jobthe job that I'm actually in
now.
I had been working for theUniversity of Wisconsin, really
comfortable, you know, it was agreat job.
I was managing the UnionTheater on campus at UW and just
it didn't fit me.
It was a huge bureaucracy andyou know, I was always trying to
(13:14):
find creative solutions toproblems.
And we, just after 10 years Ihad to part ways and so I was
looking for a job and came andinterviewed here and at the time
, the offer that they made I waslike, well, that's a lot less
than I was making, but you know,right now some money is better
than no money.
So and took the job, and boy,you know, they built a job
(13:38):
around me.
So it's, you know I'd have totestify to the trueness of that.
Just accept.
You know, just move ahead.
The boat's not going to moveforward unless the rudder steers
somewhere.
So how about a favorite placeor thing to do when you want to
de-stress?
Speaker 3 (13:59):
I read.
Second place would be take theshort flight to Mexico from
Dallas, fort Worth, and lay onthe beach and read in Cancun,
mexico.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
Wow, I would never think that you could even do
that.
You know that's interesting.
So you just have your passport,go and you're done kind of
thing.
Speaker 3 (14:18):
And yeah, well, a little bit more than that, but
you usually have to book alittle bit in advance, although
you actually can go last minutebut we have some favorite places
that we stay at that are alittle bit harder to get in.
Okay, but the flight is lessthan two hours and you're
literally at the beach in threehours.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
Yes, what shall we do today, darling?
Let's just fly down to thebeach.
I like the sound of that.
That makes me feel very goodjust thinking about doing it.
How about?
I'm sorry you were going to saysomething, no go ahead sir.
This is one I really like to usea lot, especially kind of as we
segue into the major part ofour interview.
(15:03):
Do you have a favorite memoryfrom childhood and I try to
frame that in the spectrum ofsomething that maybe you smell
something or you see aparticular sunset I think for
some people it ends up being oryou hear a song and it brings
you back to a different timethat just always either brings a
(15:27):
sense of calm or a sense ofhappiness that it's a favorite
place to be, almost in additionto remembering it.
Speaker 3 (15:38):
Fresh cut grass on the baseball field.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
Really.
Speaker 3 (15:42):
Okay, I played baseball all growing up and
there was nothing like the smellof freshly cut grass on the
diamond.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
Lots of games.
Speaker 3 (15:56):
Lots of games, lots of games.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
Any heartbreaker games or any victory games that
particularly stand out.
Speaker 3 (16:05):
Well, actually, yeah, there's one particular game
that stood out.
I was not a power hitter, but Iwas a heavy contact hitter.
And there was one game I wasplaying in I was a sophomore in
high school.
It was in a summer league and Iwent four for five, two singles
, a double and a triple.
(16:28):
And afterwards a gentlemanapproached me and he asked me
where I was going to college inthe fall and I told him I wasn't
, I was going back to highschool, I was only a sophomore.
And he he said you're kiddingme.
And I said no.
And he he said you're kiddingme and I said no.
He said we need to talk becauseI've been scouting the pitcher
(16:53):
that you ripped apart tonightand you might be interested in
the school that I represent, andanyway.
So I had never had a game whereI went four for five, but that
day but you know, it's funnybecause they say in baseball the
(17:15):
people who are reallysuccessful at hitting can really
see the rotation and the seamsof the ball, and I remember that
day I could see the ball moreclearly, for whatever reason,
than any other game.
And it just yeah, it just just.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
It was a very lucky day for me I always remember my
uh, my dad was not a huge sportsguy.
I mean, we weren't like thepeople that had to watch every
single game of any sport, youknow, regardless of what it was
so, but he said, of all thesports, he loved baseball the
most and he loved the idea of itbeing one person against
(17:48):
another person.
That it was you know the actualpitch and the hit that that
just always struck him as beinga true sport, you know, to see
who wins in that challenge, andyou know, of course, tennis and
things have a similar kind ofthing.
But something about baseballreally captured his heart, I
(18:09):
think and that was one of thethree things I can remember
doing with my dad was going tosee a Brewers game together,
because he just thought thatthat was an important thing to
share, I guess.
Speaker 3 (18:19):
Yeah, and I don't think a lot of people understand
baseball because, you're right,it's pitcher and batter, but
then it's also chess.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:27):
With the men on the field and the people on the
bases and the options that theoffense and defense has, and a
lot of people.
So when I go to a professionalbaseball game, I still like to
pretend I'm the batter and I tryto guess what the pitcher is
going to throw next.
And you know, if the count's0-2, he's thrown a curveball and
(18:52):
it's not going to be close towhere he's going to hit it.
Very rarely is he going tothrow a fastball over the middle
of the plate, right, right.
And so you know.
Having grown up playing ballfor so long, you think about
these things and so I like tofollow, pitch by pitch, look at
the count, look at what theplayers are, look at the batting
average of the person who's atbat.
(19:12):
Is it a second baseman?
He's not going to hit a homerun.
He's probably going to hit fora base hit, and you know and try
to figure out the plays, so.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
So what's your favorite?
Baseball movie then, given allthat?
Speaker 3 (19:26):
Do you have one Bull favorite baseball movie then,
given all that, do you have one?
Speaker 2 (19:27):
bull, bull dorum, really bulls are.
That's one I haven't seen.
The one I haven't I've alwaysloved is uh, for love of the
game so, another great game,another great movie.
Speaker 3 (19:36):
Bull dorum is a kevin costner picture.
Right there, he's in both ofthem, right so.
And sus Susan Sarandon, okay,and Tim Robbins, her husband,
and the premise behind the movieis Tim Robbins is this rookie
who can't control his arm, thethrowing the ball, and Kevin
(19:57):
Costner is the matureend-of-career guy had played in
the big leagues, career guy, hadplayed in the big leagues.
Now he's there only to get thisguy to calm down and focused
and to get so he can get calledup into the big leagues, sure.
And then then there's this loveconnection between the pitcher
and susan sarandon, and alsosusan sarandon who has the hots
(20:20):
for kevin costner, um, butthere's some of of the best
movie lines in a comedy.
That, yeah.
So that's my favorite.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
It's on my list.
So now that you've given methat much information, I'll have
to look it up on Netflix orAmazon or something and watch
that soon.
Watch that soon.
I think that's actually part ofthe reason Kevin Costner got
called for Love of the Game wasbecause he was the only person
the producers could think ofthat would be able to do what
that part asked for.
But it just that's one of thosethat I think of oftentimes.
(20:56):
There's so many wonderful lifelessons in a lot of those movies
that are.
You know, I almost thinksometimes we should just kind of
abandon a lot of what we do inschool today and just show
movies and then have discussionsabout them afterwards.
You know we would.
We would grow better people, Ithink.
Overall.
Speaker 3 (21:13):
Well, you know it's true because casting for that,
I'm assuming Tim Robbins didplay baseball because he did
have good form as a pitcher.
It's kind of like Charlie Sheenin that movie Major League.
Charlie Sheen pitched baseballand was a pitcher in baseball in
high school.
Okay, so he knew so anyway.
But yeah, it's funny how itworks out.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
Yeah, so all right, jim.
Jim, if I call you Kavanaugh,to please extend some grace.
I don't know why, but eversince I've seen your name, jim,
carlo, for whatever reasons,when I think about you I think
Kavanaugh and I said so.
If that's it just, you know,slowly throw your fist out and
say, raul, my name is Carlo, ok,and I think I'll get it then
(21:59):
All right.
Speaker 3 (21:59):
Actually, actually, I won't say a word.
You're way too polite.
Actually, I won't say a word,they'll be just fine.
You're way too polite.
My brother, chris, was twoyears older than me and I went
through life following him inschool and we looked a lot alike
at those ages and I got calledChris an awful lot, yeah, so
(22:19):
it's okay.
Speaker 2 (22:25):
With a name like Raul LaBrush.
I try to be more sensitiveabout names than that.
I can't tell you how manypermutations of Raul LaBrush
I've heard over the course of mylifetime.
So, jim, I'm really fascinatedand excited, I guess, to talk
about.
You have your sheet that youput out and those of you that I
know I never said any of this.
Let me go back a little bithere to explain a little bit
(22:45):
about who Jim Carlo is.
Jim's an accomplished businessstrategist, a speaker and an
author.
He has successfully drivenexplosive growth for health care
organizations, from startups toindustry leaders.
Jim is a trusted expert inbuilding high performing teams,
revitalizing underperformingbusinesses and guiding
(23:05):
organizations throughtransformational change.
Now, that's tough to live up to, but what's missing in that?
What got you to that point,john, that you became that
person with 30 years ofexperience?
Speaker 3 (23:24):
Probably luck and hard work.
You know, one of the things mydad always said to us is you may
not be the best at what you do,but if you work the hardest at
what you do, people will noticethat.
And I've had a number of peoplewho have worked for me who have
(23:46):
said you work way too hard.
And then I have my wife whosays I don't work hard enough,
but I'm just kidding.
She walked in the door a littlewhile ago so she probably heard
that is throwing a pockettowards my direction.
You're going to pay for that.
So don't worry, I'll pay forthat.
But but it's, it's really, butit's really hard work.
(24:09):
And one of our childrenrecently got promoted and he
works at Hewlett Packard andhe's a director at the age of 34
.
Wow, and I was congratulatinghim and saying you know, your
work ethic, you know, is verynotable.
And he said but, dad, I gotthat from you.
(24:31):
He said I never liked doinghomework, but I saw you doing
homework every night.
And he said, and I'm looking atmy dad, saying, well, my dad's
doing work, homework.
I guess I should be doingschool homework.
Yeah, and anyway, so that appledidn't fall far from the tree.
But I am blessed with a greatwife and three great children.
(24:56):
The children are all off thepayroll, they are all off the
cell phone bill, they're all offthe health insurance.
So we did our job.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
Welcome to the world.
So let's talk about the sixpillars of effective leadership.
I looked at that list integrity, focus, empathy, compassion,
humor, stability, compassion,humor, stability.
(25:30):
And right away, the first wordout of the gate with that
listing, integrity strikes me assomething that is woefully
lacking, woefully lacking inmany aspects of our nation right
now.
And it's not political fingerpointing, it's just, uh, almost
the the new normal right now isthat integrity at least what
(25:53):
I've always thought of integrityas being is now relative or
something, because you can.
You can twist it, shape, shapeit, mold it, and you're still
being a person of integrity.
But integrity to what or withwhat kind of thing?
(26:14):
So I actually wanted to look itup.
I looked up the word because itstrikes me that part of why
this happens is that people losea sense of the definition of
the word that is being purportedto be true and it's just not.
Let me find that quick, if Ican.
Yeah, of course not, of coursenot.
(26:37):
Um, cut all this space out.
There we go.
Integrity this would have beengood to have figured out ahead
of time, wouldn't it?
(26:58):
Here we go.
The steadfast adherence to astrict moral or ethical code,
the state of being unimpaired,soundness, the quality or
condition of being whole orundivided completeness.
That first definition is theone that I guess I always have
(27:18):
used or purported to be themeaning of integrity, the
steadfast adherence to a strictmoral or ethical code.
So my question to you is inthis world today, where the
adherence to a strict moral andethical code has become relative
, because the morals and ethicsare relative, what does
(27:41):
integrity mean anymore?
Speaker 3 (27:44):
Well, I go with the first part of that and that's,
you know, sticking.
So it's funny because yourelate it to the political scene
.
It really hit me hard.
In 19, in november of 1983 okay, the year I graduated college I
got elected elected in myhometown to be a city councilman
(28:05):
at the age of 23.
Holy cow, and shortly after theelection, and long before cell
phones, the city manager calledme, or city administrator called
me and asked if I'd come in andhave a chat with him.
And I went in and I didn't knowwhat Don was going to say, but
I knew who he was and hadstarted to get to know a lot of
(28:27):
the people who ran the community.
And we sat down and we talkedfor a bit and he congratulated
me on winning.
He said you know, you're asmart guy, you're going to make
a great councilman, you're agreat addition to lead this town
.
He said I'm going to ask you onefavor and he said I hope you
(28:51):
take this favor seriously.
He said every night when you goto bed and you put your head on
the pillow and right before youclose your eyes, I want you to
ask yourself the followingquestion Did I do anything today
for my own self-benefit at theexpense of another individual
(29:17):
group of individuals,organization or community?
If you answer yes to thatquestion, you need to
immediately rethink that day andhow and what you're going to do
to repair the damage that youcause to those people.
I hope you have very few ofthose days and I hope you have
(29:41):
many days when the answer is no.
I've asked myself that questionevery night since November of
1983.
It is rare that I've ever saidyes To me.
That's integrity.
It's doing.
(30:02):
I explain it to people of ifyou're looking at a roadway and
there's a middle, then there's aline in the middle of the road
but no traffic.
You are always on that centerline of the road, never too much
to the left, never too much tothe right.
I also try to teach people whoare new to leadership the
(30:25):
importance of it, and especiallywhen you're new because you're
being measured by everybodyaround you more critically when
you step into either aleadership role or a new role.
And if you don't have integrity, you won't have trust with your
(30:47):
team.
If you don't have trust withyour team, they will not believe
in you or fully support you andif you were in the military,
wouldn't follow you into battle,and so to me, it is the one
(31:08):
pillar.
To me that is non-negotiable,and my teams, wherever I have
been, have understood that, andI've always driven that same
pathway.
Speaker 2 (31:23):
And I could not agree with you more, honestly, could
not, if I tried, agree with youmore.
I think where I struggle andmaybe this is me just getting
thinking about too much of the Idon't know what it is the
emotional, the spiritual warfarethat's going on now.
(31:44):
But when I see kids wanting tobe influencers, you know that's
a job now, apparently aninfluencer right.
And where it falls down for meis that the ethics of doing for
others, you know, not doing forme first, doing for others first
and trying to keep that centerline mentality of, yes, this is
(32:07):
good for me, this is going to begood for me, doing for others
first and trying to keep thatcenter line mentality of yes,
this is good for me, this isgoing to be good for me, it's
good for us, it's good foreverybody.
It seems to have been supplantedby a group of folks in all
kinds of places that thinkthat's simpy, you know, you're
some sort of a moron.
No one gets ahead that way andthat selfishness that's you know
(32:33):
, me first, thinking, you know,seems to me.
It's so utterly obvious thatthat's the downfall of
everything that makes Americagreat to be in that place.
And yet I don't't know how doyou teach someone that has
(32:54):
turned their back on integrityto recognize that you've turned
your back on the one thing thatwill make you a good leader or a
leader?
It's like every man out forhimself.
Speaker 3 (33:02):
I really it's, it's very, it's very difficult and it
bothers me sometimes, but whatI believe in is if I make my
people better, they make mebetter.
Yeah, and there's nothing thatI enjoy more than telling
somebody your next job awaitsyou and you're about to be
(33:23):
promoted, and it's no differentthan sending your child off to
college or to kindergarten.
That feeling of I'veaccomplished what I set out to
do and I made somebody elsebetter.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
Do you ever feel like , if you see someone that is
just a bad leader, is in aleadership role and they are
just bad at it, they're doingthe things that no good leader
does?
Do you ever feel a need, orhave you ever confronted those
people and say I don't know howto tell you this, but, um, I'm
(34:01):
going to tell you, what you'redoing is absolutely antithetical
to good leadership, and this iswhy Is that?
What's lacking?
Do we need more people thatwill just stand up and call out
bad leadership when they see it?
Speaker 3 (34:16):
I think the problem that we have is, if you do in
that leader's personality,you're going to be displaced.
Unfortunately, no, I haven't,but I've only worked in my
career for two leaders wholacked integrity and I didn't
last long.
And I, because I would not workin that environment and I
(34:40):
encourage people.
I was speaking at theUniversity of North Texas in
February and I was in a lecturehall.
I had about, I'm going to say,80 or 90 students in them.
They were all seniors gettingready towards looking forward to
graduation and I was talkingabout the six pillars and I was
(35:01):
talking about the importance ofintegrity and I was also talking
about the importance of beingable to enjoy the job that you
had and that you know.
Life is too short to work forsomebody who lacked integrity.
And I said you know?
And people started askingquestions related to work
situations and I said you know,we have a.
I have a lot that I want tocover today, but I have no plans
(35:25):
after this that I want to covertoday, but I have no plans
after this.
If you would like to come upand talk to me or outside in the
hallway about your situations,I'd be more than happy to talk
through them.
Of that 80 or 90 people, 20people stayed Wow.
Of those 20, over half of themhad leaders or managers.
(35:47):
Most of them worked in retailsettings a coffee shop, a dress
shop or whatever who lackedintegrity, and one was so
lacking, I would say, was bordercriminal person to immediately
try to find another position andanother job because I was
(36:09):
fearful that if left alone withthat individual for whatever
reason, that something bad couldhappen.
That's how bad I felt.
Wow, and it's to me and it's tome.
One of the reasons I wrote thebook was in mentoring people for
(36:31):
25 years.
Integrity has always been thenon-negotiable pillar for me but
, like you said earlier, it'sthe one thing that I think is
lacking most in what we seearound us.
And I don't think social mediahelps us.
No, because social media givespeople the opportunity to take a
stand and go hide, throw a,throw a grenade over the ceiling
(36:54):
.
You know, attack somebody andgo hide and and in the media.
I stopped watching the newsduring COVID and it and going
back to college.
I had a class in college calledContemporary Moral Values.
There was no book for the class, no textbook.
(37:15):
You had to bring to class theWall Street Journal or the New
York Times or the WashingtonPost and you had to be prepared
to discuss in the class thearticle and be able to dissect
the religious background of thereporter and the political
(37:36):
background of the reporter andwhat they were trying to
convince you to believe in.
This was in the early 80s Boy.
This was in the early 80s Boyand it's the class I remember
most and apply daily.
(37:57):
Yeah, it's so slanted.
Speaker 2 (38:05):
Yeah, I think everyone needs at least one
philosophy course.
The courses I remember the mostwere my philosophy courses.
I think I took three of them asan undergraduate and the guy
that taught was.
He just made you think aboutthings, which is, I think,
perhaps that set.
The root of all of this is thatI like your analogy we just lob
bombs over the wall and then gohide, and it doesn't.
(38:28):
No one has to take account foror give account for their
actions.
Um, which is a horrible placeto be.
Um, you know, you can sayanything you want about me, but
please say it to my face.
You know, I just as soon havean opportunity to not only learn
because even in the meanestthings there's often some kernel
of truth, but there's also anopportunity for me to make some
(38:52):
sort of amends if needed.
There's an opportunity for meto counterpoint and say well, I
understand why you feel, but youunderstand this.
To have a dialogue and we're?
I honestly think we're a nationof cowards.
To have a dialogue and we're, Ihonestly think we're a nation
of cowards all the time.
You know, yeah, they just it.
So it seems so blatantlyobvious to me that you know
(39:15):
we're we're just running around,afraid to have arguments that
are meaningful and will move usforward.
I don't know.
I, I, I, I hope.
I wish that there was some wayfor us to come up with a formula
for how to change someone withno integrity into a person that
has integrity, to make themwoefully aware of their lack of
(39:39):
integrity so that they comearound and see the light.
Have you seen anything thathappens in your teachings and
your teachings where a lightgoes on in someone's eyes that
they were thinking, yeah, kindof looping fast, like loose,
like man, don't pin me down, andall of a sudden kind of got it
that, yeah, wait a minute, or isthat?
(40:00):
Does life have to knock thatout of us?
Do you think?
Speaker 3 (40:05):
I think life has to knock you out of that, and I
think sometimes adversity has tois the wake-up call and
something happens.
You know, I I look at leaderswho, um, continually take the
next level and or are, every twoyears, replacing the people at
(40:26):
that level below them, and Icall that the shuffling of the
chairs on the Titanic.
And I call it that becauseeventually that boat is still
going to sink.
How long can that leader getaway with explaining to their
board that the issue isn't them,it's the people underneath them
(40:50):
who that person hired.
That is the problem.
I mean, how many times do thechairs have to shift for people
to recognize what's going on?
Sure, and you know,unfortunately that happens a
fair amount.
It doesn't happen all the time,but I've seen it happen, right,
(41:10):
and you know, and you'redisplacing people that you
believed in and probably stillbelieve in, but don't want to
admit that you're the problem,right of like lincoln.
Speaker 2 (41:29):
You know he uh, that's the the book about him
that they made the movie on.
But he, he purposely sought outpeople in his cabinet that
would disagree with him.
You know, there he had that,that genius about him that said
I don't want a bunch of peoplearound me that are just going to
say, oh yes, mr brethren, ohyes, he wanted people that were
going to say that's thestupidest idea I've ever heard.
You and and challenge him, andhe was willing to accept that,
you know.
(41:49):
Ok, well, tell me why it's thestupidest idea you've ever heard
.
He wasn't afraid of it, hewasn't a coward about hearing
about his own lack of thinkingthrough something completely.
Do you find that that's ameasure of a level of people's
integrity?
That they surround themselveswith people that they're
vulnerable, transparent enoughwith that they can say you're
(42:12):
right, I screwed up.
I think of my wife.
I mean my wife, god, god blessher.
You know, 39 years has put upwith me number one, but she has
also never wavered from being awoman of integrity and, you know
, being willing to call me whenI have totally screwed up or
when I have not done what I saidI was going to do you know, and
I was angry about it, you know,partly because she caught me in
(42:34):
it and partly because I knew,damn it, she was right, you know
kind of thing, and I think thatthat's what makes us better.
You know, you get to a certainpoint and realize you know well,
dummy, you figure it out right.
Get to a certain point andrealize you know well, dummy,
you'll figure it out right.
Is that what's missing in someof these folks?
Speaker 3 (42:56):
Like you can't force people to keep people around
that they don't want around,though, can you?
You can't.
And I kind of make the analogy.
It's like the store worker whotakes a dollar out of the drawer
today and tomorrow it's $2, andthen it's $5, and then it's two
dollars, and then it's fivedollars, and then it's ten
dollars, and you know.
And then eventually they getcaught and it's no different,
you know.
Then they're in a world of hurtand that wake-up call happens
(43:17):
and they they're facing you know, a judge or something else, or
they've done something worse.
And then all of a sudden, theyrealize I, I don't have a choice
anymore.
Well, I do have a choice.
I can go to prison and I can bethe person that I, that I that
I am, or I can try to be betterand learn how to be different.
Um, in that environment, andcome out stronger right, but you
(43:40):
know it's everywhere we turn.
You know, I stopped watching thenews before covid or during
covid because I couldn't believeanything.
I didn't believe what I was,what I was hearing, and I didn't
believe.
It didn't make sense to me, anddifferent stations had
different opinions on things.
And you know, I own, and tothis day I, if I watch the news,
(44:01):
I'm watching it for the weatherand the sports scores, and I
really, because there's very fewgood news stories in the news
or in the press and we'rebombarded with negativity, we're
bombarded with disaster on theleft, disaster on the right, and
(44:25):
and and we don't often show thegood in the world.
Yeah, and that's missing too.
Yeah, and I think that's why,when I started to write the book
and I started to write,integrity was number one on my
list.
I was like you know, this isthe mountain that I have to
(44:48):
stand on, it's so important tome.
But if, if, I can impact 20people and those people can
impact 20 people.
And I mean, I'm not going tochange the world, I don't intend
to, I don't have the time to,I'm too old, but the reality is
I at least can know that I'veleft the place better than I
(45:10):
found it.
Speaker 2 (45:10):
Yeah, yeah, my dad told me, I think, when I was
just out of college.
He said he had a spike that hetook out of his pocket and it
was an older, like railroad kindof spike but much thinner.
You know the type, like asquare nail, which I I haven't
(45:31):
seen that anymore that we maymake those.
But, um, I said you know hepans out and he says, look at
that.
And I'm like okay, yeah, andsaid I carry that around because
there was a guy that I believein that hung on a cross, on
something similar to that, a lotbigger.
And I think about how thatperson did what he did, because
he believed that in all of that,that it was going to make
(45:54):
things better for everyone else.
He knew that was what he neededto do and he did it.
He said that reminds me that Ineed to do it in my life is to
just try to do whatever I can,to believe whatever I can, can
to do the best that I can forthe people around me, and that
the worst thing they'll be ableto say after I'm dead is that,
yeah, he was kind of an idiot,but you know he made the world a
(46:16):
better place.
He tried.
He tried to make it a betterplace.
I don't know that there's muchmore noble ambition than that,
honestly.
But so integrity, integrity,integrity.
Boy, anyone listening there, ifyou know six people or twenty
people, tell them aboutintegrity and tell them about
Jim's book that they need toread about that because it's the
number one thing we can talkabout.
(46:37):
One other thing, because we'regoing to run out of time here
before you know it.
Speaker 3 (46:41):
You know what that means.
You know what that means whenwe run out of time.
I have to come back.
Speaker 2 (46:52):
I was hoping.
Oh god, thank you, god, thankyou.
He said that, yes, I was,because we're only going to get
through like half of this nextone too.
Um, focus is one I I can comeback to it some more time
because as an actor, as atrained actor, I I have stories
to tell about focus too and howhow critical it is to really
getting anything done andaccomplishing anything of real
merit.
(47:14):
But empathy was the word thatjumped out to me next, and I see
there's so much going on now inleadership training and you
know, throughout you see allkinds of empathy workshops and
whatnot, and part of that is alittle bit bothersome to me
because it it's, uh, to monitor,to monetize empathy seems to me
to be kind of like you knowwhat happened to christmas, you
know it just, um, and it itconcerns me because empathy,
(47:38):
again, I think, is somethingthat you you learn by going
through tough things, reallyreally tough, and enduring
through them and trying to findin the midst of it either the
meaning that was there, oraccepting that you won't find
any meaning and just waiting forperhaps the meaning comes later
(48:00):
.
But the most critical elementfor me has always been that you
learn how to be softer to thenext person that comes along,
because you're not seeing itjust as a and I'll pour them.
You're feeling it with them,you're in that you go back to
being in that same place or alike place, and it allows a
level of communication, a levelof interaction that just doesn't
(48:24):
happen otherwise.
So what brought you to wantingto make empathy?
It's a number three thing inthe list, but it could probably
be one or two sometimes.
Speaker 3 (48:37):
So I'll tell you a story.
So early in my career I lackedcompassion and I lacked empathy,
but I had a situation in theearly 2000s.
I worked for a technologycompany and I had a group of
software developers and supportpeople in Oakland, california,
that were maintaining a piece oftechnology that was old green
(48:58):
screen capabilities.
You remember those days?
Speaker 2 (49:02):
Yeah, character-based interfaces.
Speaker 3 (49:05):
Yes, and we were developing Windows-based
interfaces.
Woo, yes, so, and we weredeveloping Windows-based
capabilities to replace it.
Okay, and we were at the pointwhere we had introduced the
Windows capabilities and we wereabout to introduce the second
generation of the Windowscapabilities and we had made the
corporate decision that we weregoing to force people to
(49:26):
convert to a Windows platformand get rid of the green screen.
And I had the privilege ofhaving to tell the people that
their jobs would be going awayover how I was going to present
(49:53):
it to them, because I had to beable to convey to them that I
couldn't afford for them to allwalk out the door, because we
had customers to support,because the implementation
timeframe is 8 to 18 months onthe new technology and we had to
support these customers.
So I walked in and I made themthree promises.
First promise I will give youas much notice as I feasibly can
(50:16):
and as far in advance as I can.
So if I know customer X isconverting in January 1 of next
year guess what?
You have eight months notice.
If I know it's six months, youhave six months notice.
If I know it's six months, youhave six months notice.
So that was commitment numberone.
Commitment number two if youwant to learn the new
technologies and and geteducation on how to support them
(50:37):
or how to code for them or howto do whatever for them so that
you can move from where you aretoday to those that department
over there, I will provide thataccess to that knowledge and
education during the workdaybetween now and when your
departure date is.
That was commitment number two.
Commitment number three if youdidn't want to walk work still
(51:00):
commitment number two if youwanted to stay with the company
and you didn't want to go to thenew technology, I would
personally help you find a newjob within our company that
you're suited for.
That you can succeed at.
Third commitment If you decidedyou didn't want to stay with
the company, when it's your timeto go, I will also personally
(51:22):
help you during that period ofnotice and when it's the end of
time and help you get a job onthe outside of the organization
that's right for you that youcan succeed at.
My sole goal was to ensure thatnobody quit before it was time
for them to leave.
I achieved that goal.
(51:42):
About six months later I get acall from HR to come in.
They want to come and speak tome and the woman from HR came
down and sat down in my officeand her boss my boss wasn't with
her, so I knew I wasn't gettingfired and she said I have the
results from the employeesatisfaction survey and I want
(52:05):
to talk about your team inOakland, california, and I said
how bad is it?
She said that's the problem.
They have the highestsatisfaction score out of the
entire organization and we have20,000 employees and the second
tier happiest employees was asignificant drop below where
(52:28):
they scored.
Why do you have a departmentthat you're laying off have such
a high score?
And I said I don't know.
And she said well, what are youdoing?
And I said I made them threepromises and she said what were
(52:50):
those promises?
And I told her and she said youcouldn't have done it any
better.
And do you know, I saw thatthrough its transition and
everything.
And then it really surprised me.
I was not expecting that.
Speaker 2 (53:10):
Well, I mean, I'm listening to you tell the story
of what you did and thinking asa person.
If I was in one of thosepositions and you, you presented
my options to me that way,there would be no way you left
no out for a person to feelsorry for themselves.
(53:30):
You really didn't, which is andit wasn't like you were
contriving it.
I mean that would not work,that presentation would not work
if they sensed any ingenuity inyou.
So again we go back then tointegrity, that you had to have
displayed to them, a level ofintegrity that they knew that
they could take what you weresaying at face value and take it
(53:53):
to the bank, if you will.
So that's a wonderful,wonderful story of what is
sorely lacking.
People want to come and talk tome about making America great.
Again, america has always beengreat, thank you very much.
And you can lookinternationally at all the
(54:13):
things that we've done overhistory.
We have always been great.
And that that kind of story,that kind of situation, that
kind of individual, to have beenable to be raised up in our
nation and be able to do whatyou did with those people that's
what makes America great,that's what's always made
America great, is thatwillingness to think about
(54:35):
others and put yourself in theirplace and try to do what you
can for them.
That will help instead ofbanging them down.
Yeah, but that's veryencouraging.
Jim, thank you for that story.
Yeah, let's do that.
Let's do that every singleplace we possibly can, and in as
(54:58):
many ways as we can, because itgives people hope.
That's it, that's the hope.
Right Is to have that.
Speaker 3 (55:06):
That gives me hope that I can get past this
horrible thing because I haveoptions now right, correct,
correct, and that I would get,and nobody's going to be told
that their job is over on Friday, right, right.
Speaker 2 (55:19):
That's that uncertainty is what makes people
freak out.
You know, look at all theuncertainty right now and how
it's.
I believe honestly that all ofthat is freak out.
You know, look at all theuncertainty right now and how
it's.
I.
Speaker 3 (55:27):
I believe honestly that all of that is engineered
to make people more maneuverableor oh, absolutely and
vulnerable, and to say, hey, I'm, how do I not know, I'm not.
Next, I need to update myresume.
I need to, and I bet if they,if somebody looked at the
keystrokes on their computers,they're all at search firms
(55:48):
trying to get their next job,because nobody wants to be
without a paycheck.
People don't save, like ourparents taught us to save.
And when your company, whenyour country, is in such a debt
situation, you say, well, whycan't I be in that kind of
(56:08):
situation?
The country doesn't care, butthe country is not going to bail
you out.
Speaker 2 (56:14):
Yeah, we're going to bail the country out.
That's going to be the real funpart, you know.
So we how you build empathy.
Are there exercises or gosh?
(56:44):
I was thinking how those twoare integrity and empathy are so
intertwined with one another,and if we can find ways to build
the bridges for people.
Speaker 3 (56:57):
Yeah, I'm actually starting to think of a workshop
for the pillars that willinclude a lot of situational
role plays, where people get asituation and they have to think
through it and come up with aplan.
And because you know, until youexperience them, you can't read
(57:19):
a book about solving, you know,empathy problems or compassion
problems, people can tell youthis.
You have to show more caring.
Okay, what's that mean?
Until they practice it anduntil they experience it, and
until they, you know they're not.
That's why I always say youknow, leadership is a never
ending development role.
(57:39):
It it's constantly changing andyou're, you're constantly
changing.
Speaker 2 (57:45):
Yeah, yeah, that whole idea of dispelling the
myth of you're not born a leader, you create a leader, you know,
you, you work towards being aleader um, is very, very true.
That's been my experience too.
You just the leaders, the bestleaders I know are ones that got
knocked down and got up andknocked down and got up and, you
know, thought through how arewe going to not do this again?
You know type of thing.
(58:06):
So, folks, my guest this weekhas been Jim Carlo, or Kavanaugh
, depending on who you'retalking to in my brain.
So Jim is a experiencedleadership mentor.
I'm calling that.
If you had to give yourelevator speech, how would you?
How do you introduce yourselfto people?
Speaker 3 (58:24):
Jim.
I'm a corporate leader whobelieves in developing others'
ability to lead for the future.
Speaker 2 (58:31):
That works.
That works for me.
It's an elevator speech.
I probably won't remember itthe next time we talk because
I'll be thinking about all thethings I want to ask you about.
But, Jim, it's been such apleasure talking with you,
getting to know you.
I will look forward to figuringout another time to get
together to carry on ourconversation.
I hope you've enjoyed yourselfas well.
Speaker 3 (58:51):
I I have this was a lot of fun.
It was.
This has been a great exchange,and it's these great exchanges
are good, because you may notget through everything you want
to, but you go deep in so manythings.
People can really grasp on towhat actually we're talking
about.
I hope so.
Speaker 2 (59:09):
I hope so.
So I will look forward withbated breath as we say in the
theater to our next conversationhere on Frame of Reference
Profiles in Leadership.
Thank you.
Welcome to Frame of Reference informed, intelligent
conversations about the issuesand challenges facing everyone
in today's world.
In-depth interviews to help youexpand and inform your frame of
reference.
Now here's your host, raoulLabrèche.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Well, welcome.
Welcome everyone to anotheredition.
We're in Season 8 now.
Can you believe it?
Season 8 of Frame of Referenceand this is our Profiles in
Leadership portion of thepodcast that we've done over
time, and I can't believe it.
You know, it seems like well, Iguess it's been hundreds of
interviews.
So, of course, time went byquickly, but I'm psyched today.
(00:42):
I've been doing a number of ourframe of reference coming
together broadcasts with AntoineHolman, but you know, I'm kind
of getting back into the foldhere with doing some of the
interviews with folks around thecountry with different
expertises and the guy thatyou're going to meet today,
maybe you've met him already.
I'm not going to be allgrandiose and think it's all
about me.
(01:02):
That's where you first saw him.
No, hopefully you know aboutJim.
All grandiose and thinking it'sall about me, that's where you
first saw him.
No, hopefully you know aboutJim because Jim Carlo is a
fascinating, fascinating man andI can tell you that I don't
even know him, but I can tellfrom the things that I've read,
just from his bio, that he saidI get bios from people before I
put them onto the website andJim just has this personality
(01:25):
that comes through right awayand I'm excited.
If you can't tell I'm excited,then you don't listen or watch
this podcast much, because whenI get this going right away, you
know we're all in trouble.
So but, jim, jim Carlo, thankyou so much for being with us
today.
How are you today?
Speaker 3 (01:42):
I am great and I am just pleased to be here and I
love your excitement becausethat's just going to make me
more excited and I think we'regoing to have fun.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Well, I hope so.
You know, cal Darnit, it'sFriday late afternoon here in
Cheese State, wisconsin, andLord knows that there's enough
things in the world right now tojust sit back and go.
Oh, woe is me.
Oh, that's awful.
Oh, did you hear what happened?
I just am tired of it.
I think there is so much worthcelebrating in life.
There is so much worthcelebrating in this country that
(02:16):
we live in that is so polarizedright now.
I get it Lots of problems.
I'm not going to try to, youknow, eat an ostrich with my
hand in the sand.
But I'm not going to try to,you know, eat an ostrich with my
head in the sand.
But, goodness gracious people,come on, make America great
again.
How about just being greatAmericans again, period.
And we've got two of them righthere.
I'm putting myself in that clubwith Jim.
But, jim, you know, one of thethings I like to do to start
(02:42):
things off is to do a little bitof my favorite things, and so
this is really a kind of aRorschach team, if that's a word
thing, where we just kind ofI'll throw stuff out and I ask
you know what's your favorite?
And you go, and if you're wrong, you're wrong.
If you're right, if you'reright, if you say something that
you think might get you introuble, just come clean on it,
man, just come clean, okay.
So all right.
So here we go.
First thing, what's yourfavorite pie?
Speaker 3 (03:04):
My favorite pie P-I-E .
Speaker 2 (03:07):
Mm-hmm Not your favorite pie, like you know math
.
No, your favorite pie thatmm-mm, like you go on and say
something about this.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
I got to try that Lemon meringue.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
Lemon meringue.
Really, you know, I think, andall the people I've asked that
question, I think you may be thefirst lemon meringue had a
couple of key lines, closestthing to that.
But lemon meringue, what about?
What's about a lemon meringuethat you like so much?
Speaker 3 (03:32):
You know, it was this .
Now my mother listens to thisbroadcast.
We're in real trouble.
My mom, my mom, god bless heris 100 and still bakes.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
Oh my gosh Really.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
And growing up, everyone loved her apple pie.
Okay, except me, she would haveto buy a store-bought Mrs
Smith's apple pie for me to eatit.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
Really, oh my God, I'm surprised she didn't whip
you.
My grandma LaRouche would neverhave taken that from me.
Speaker 3 (04:08):
So.
So I don't know what it was,whether it was the nutmeg or the
cinnamon or what it was, butnow, everything else my mom
baked I loved, but for whateverreason.
Now I think my wife cured me ofthat because she told me she's
never buying a Mrs Smith's applepie, and so I do eat.
My wife cured me of thatbecause she told me she's never
buying a Mrs Smith's apple pie,and so I do eat my wife's apple
pie.
But I always like as a kid Iliked lemon ices, I liked lemon
(04:36):
meringue pie, I liked on mybirthday I wanted a lemon-filled
cake.
Okay, and I don't know why, butit was, but lemon was my
favorite kind of cake thing,although my favorite ice cream
was strawberry, go figure.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
You know the human body and especially the taste
buds who can protect it right?
So how about a favorite artist?
And that could be?
We could make that any art form, okay, sculpture, whatever you
want to go with, but you're anartist.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
I'm not really an art person, but I'm going to put
music in the art category thatworks and I'm kind of polar
opposite here.
I grew up a Springsteen fanbecause I'm originally a New
Jersey boy, but now I've livedin Texas for 34 years and I'm
(05:31):
sort of a country boy.
It's going to happen.
And the two channel buttons inmy pickup truck Texas obviously
that are worn the most are theSpringsteen channel on XM radio
and the new country station thehighway on the only two buttons
(05:52):
that get used.
In fact, I should I shouldprobably just reprogram
everything to one of those twostations.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
Sure, that'd be an interesting Spotify list.
You know, to have to put thosetwo artists in and see what you
get.
I started doing a thing withthem where it's the AI DJ.
So I've got this.
You know DJ X here or whatever,and he's amazingly sounds a lot
like a real DJ would, but hemixes stuff from all the
(06:18):
different songs I listen to andI swear there's some AI someone
going.
What the heck is with this guy.
He listens to what Contus and,you know, springsteen.
I don't get it.
That should not be happening inthe world.
But you know what are you goingto do?
So how about?
do you have a favorite song then, seeing as you have two great
genres there to play with?
Speaker 3 (06:39):
You know, I don't only because there's so many
that I could point to, and itwould depend on probably the day
or time or my mental state ofwhen the question is asked, and
I know you want to go down anddig deeper into that one, but
(07:04):
anyway.
So I have a very diverse tastein music and I think if someone
was to, if I was to put myiTunes on in a car and just have
it shuffle, I think peoplewould ask to get out of the car
at some point because theywouldn't know what's coming on
(07:26):
next.
And I'm sincere, because therecould be a song from the 50s
coming on.
There could be a song from the60s coming on, there could be
Joni Mitchell coming on, whoknows?
Speaker 2 (07:41):
Yeah, I think you and I would be able to go on a long
distance journey together,because that's pretty much where
my head is at.
With music too, I'm amazed too.
I'll tell you.
I'm spiritual in a lot of ways,but the one thing that does hit
me regularly is because I do alot of shuffling with things.
It seems to me that there havebeen multiple occasions I know
(08:04):
there have been multipleoccasions in my life where I am
doing something and just have myheadphones on and a piece of
music comes on that is exactlythe right piece of music for
that moment and, you know, hasthe lyrics that I need to
remember again and to thinkthrough again.
So music, you know, I, I reallysomeday would like to have some
(08:24):
sort of a class workshop forpeople that don't think music is
very important and try tounlock it for them, because it
is just I see these things withthese guys that play guitar and
the animals come up to them, youknow, from these wildlife
refuges and you think there'ssomething wild going on there.
So how about a favoritehistoric personality, ronald
(08:48):
Reagan?
Ronald Reagan, any particularthings that stand out?
I mean, reaganomics is part ofit, but gosh.
Speaker 3 (09:00):
So one of his favorite things was humor, which
is one of my pillars.
But more importantly, he'sprobably in my personal view
limited personal view probablythe last great president we had
that was able to unite two sidesof the aisle.
We are so diverse from thattoday and and if we really want
(09:20):
to make America great again, Ithink we have to bring Ronald
Reagan back.
I think we're at that point andironically, he was a Democrat
for many, many years and thenbecame a Republican, and to me
(09:41):
that sort of fits my mentalityof we all need to get together,
right, right.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
Yeah, it's such an interesting thing for me when I
think about it.
I've always considered myselfto be independent, primarily
because I'm educationally andartistically much more aligned
with Democrats, you know, interms of the.
You know those kinds ofunderstandings of the world and
the problems of the world.
But I'm conservative infinancial things and you know
(10:13):
I'm all for programs that willdo things.
But there's a part of me thatsays, yeah, but how are we going
to pay for it?
You know, at the end of the day, how are we going to make
things?
How are we going to not makethings worse by doing that?
And Reagan, I think you knowhe's a great example of somebody
that came from very humblebeginnings.
I mean, he was a lifeguard,right, you know, as a kid
growing up and then to start inradio and you know to do be in
(10:35):
World War and be able to do allthe videos and whatnot that he
did, or movies that he did forfolks.
It just was a.
He's a fascinating guy ingeneral and they call him the
great communicator, right,because he had that ability to
just get yeah and, and I had theopportunity he spoke at my
college graduation.
(10:56):
Seriously.
Speaker 3 (10:57):
Yes, I'm a graduate.
I'm a graduate of Seton HallUniversity in New Jersey.
Ok, and?
And he was invited, and whilewe wait, and also on the day
this was Pearl Bailey, pearlBailey, yes, and then they had
the governor of New Jersey atthe time, who was Tom Keene, who
(11:20):
, my cousin, ran his politicalcampaigns so a little connection
there.
And we had to wait for thepresident.
And as we're waiting around andeverybody's up on stage and
we're waiting for thehelicopters to come in and then
the president to shuffle in,somehow Pearl Bailey got the
(11:41):
idea that she should get up andstart singing and she, just off
the cuff, got up and startedsinging.
Wow, and when the president'shelicopters landed she didn't
stop.
He came up on stage and joinedher.
(12:01):
Oh, wow, yes, wow, yes.
But you know, isn't that Igraduated?
Yeah, and I graduated in 83.
And if you go back to the late70s and early 80s, there were
there's some problem financialtimes there and finding a job
getting out of college.
He told us the stories of whenhe had to walk with shoes which
(12:24):
had broken soles on them fivemiles to an interview at a radio
station and the one thing Iremembered he said was look, I
understand it's hard to get ajob right now, but take any job
because it's easier to getanother job if you have one
(12:47):
already.
And you know that has stuckwith me.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
Yeah, that has stuck with me.
It's hard to argue with thatkind of advice, right?
I mean, I remember taking a jobthe job that I'm actually in
now.
I had been working for theUniversity of Wisconsin, really
comfortable, you know, it was agreat job.
I was managing the UnionTheater on campus at UW and just
it didn't fit me.
It was a huge bureaucracy andyou know, I was always trying to
(13:14):
find creative solutions toproblems.
And we, just after 10 years Ihad to part ways and so I was
looking for a job and came andinterviewed here and at the time
, the offer that they made I waslike, well, that's a lot less
than I was making, but you know,right now some money is better
than no money.
So and took the job, and boy,you know, they built a job
(13:38):
around me.
So it's, you know I'd have totestify to the trueness of that.
Just accept.
You know, just move ahead.
The boat's not going to moveforward unless the rudder steers
somewhere.
So how about a favorite placeor thing to do when you want to
de-stress?
Speaker 3 (13:59):
I read.
Second place would be take theshort flight to Mexico from
Dallas, fort Worth, and lay onthe beach and read in Cancun,
mexico.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
Wow, I would never think that you could even do
that.
You know that's interesting.
So you just have your passport,go and you're done kind of
thing.
Speaker 3 (14:18):
And yeah, well, a little bit more than that, but
you usually have to book alittle bit in advance, although
you actually can go last minutebut we have some favorite places
that we stay at that are alittle bit harder to get in.
Okay, but the flight is lessthan two hours and you're
literally at the beach in threehours.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
Yes, what shall we do today, darling?
Let's just fly down to thebeach.
I like the sound of that.
That makes me feel very goodjust thinking about doing it.
How about?
I'm sorry you were going to saysomething, no go ahead sir.
This is one I really like to usea lot, especially kind of as we
segue into the major part ofour interview.
(15:03):
Do you have a favorite memoryfrom childhood and I try to
frame that in the spectrum ofsomething that maybe you smell
something or you see aparticular sunset I think for
some people it ends up being oryou hear a song and it brings
you back to a different timethat just always either brings a
(15:27):
sense of calm or a sense ofhappiness that it's a favorite
place to be, almost in additionto remembering it.
Speaker 3 (15:38):
Fresh cut grass on the baseball field.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
Really.
Speaker 3 (15:42):
Okay, I played baseball all growing up and
there was nothing like the smellof freshly cut grass on the
diamond.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
Lots of games.
Speaker 3 (15:56):
Lots of games, lots of games.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
Any heartbreaker games or any victory games that
particularly stand out.
Speaker 3 (16:05):
Well, actually, yeah, there's one particular game
that stood out.
I was not a power hitter, but Iwas a heavy contact hitter.
And there was one game I wasplaying in I was a sophomore in
high school.
It was in a summer league and Iwent four for five, two singles
, a double and a triple.
(16:28):
And afterwards a gentlemanapproached me and he asked me
where I was going to college inthe fall and I told him I wasn't
, I was going back to highschool, I was only a sophomore.
And he he said you're kiddingme.
And I said no.
And he he said you're kiddingme and I said no.
He said we need to talk becauseI've been scouting the pitcher
(16:53):
that you ripped apart tonightand you might be interested in
the school that I represent, andanyway.
So I had never had a game whereI went four for five, but that
day but you know, it's funnybecause they say in baseball the
(17:15):
people who are reallysuccessful at hitting can really
see the rotation and the seamsof the ball, and I remember that
day I could see the ball moreclearly, for whatever reason,
than any other game.
And it just yeah, it just just.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
It was a very lucky day for me I always remember my
uh, my dad was not a huge sportsguy.
I mean, we weren't like thepeople that had to watch every
single game of any sport, youknow, regardless of what it was
so, but he said, of all thesports, he loved baseball the
most and he loved the idea of itbeing one person against
(17:48):
another person.
That it was you know the actualpitch and the hit that that
just always struck him as beinga true sport, you know, to see
who wins in that challenge, andyou know, of course, tennis and
things have a similar kind ofthing.
But something about baseballreally captured his heart, I
(18:09):
think and that was one of thethree things I can remember
doing with my dad was going tosee a Brewers game together,
because he just thought thatthat was an important thing to
share, I guess.
Speaker 3 (18:19):
Yeah, and I don't think a lot of people understand
baseball because, you're right,it's pitcher and batter, but
then it's also chess.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:27):
With the men on the field and the people on the
bases and the options that theoffense and defense has, and a
lot of people.
So when I go to a professionalbaseball game, I still like to
pretend I'm the batter and I tryto guess what the pitcher is
going to throw next.
And you know, if the count's0-2, he's thrown a curveball and
(18:52):
it's not going to be close towhere he's going to hit it.
Very rarely is he going tothrow a fastball over the middle
of the plate, right, right.
And so you know.
Having grown up playing ballfor so long, you think about
these things and so I like tofollow, pitch by pitch, look at
the count, look at what theplayers are, look at the batting
average of the person who's atbat.
(19:12):
Is it a second baseman?
He's not going to hit a homerun.
He's probably going to hit fora base hit, and you know and try
to figure out the plays, so.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
So what's your favorite?
Baseball movie then, given allthat?
Speaker 3 (19:26):
Do you have one Bull favorite baseball movie then,
given all that, do you have one?
Speaker 2 (19:27):
bull, bull dorum, really bulls are.
That's one I haven't seen.
The one I haven't I've alwaysloved is uh, for love of the
game so, another great game,another great movie.
Speaker 3 (19:36):
Bull dorum is a kevin costner picture.
Right there, he's in both ofthem, right so.
And sus Susan Sarandon, okay,and Tim Robbins, her husband,
and the premise behind the movieis Tim Robbins is this rookie
who can't control his arm, thethrowing the ball, and Kevin
(19:57):
Costner is the matureend-of-career guy had played in
the big leagues, career guy, hadplayed in the big leagues.
Now he's there only to get thisguy to calm down and focused
and to get so he can get calledup into the big leagues, sure.
And then then there's this loveconnection between the pitcher
and susan sarandon, and alsosusan sarandon who has the hots
(20:20):
for kevin costner, um, butthere's some of of the best
movie lines in a comedy.
That, yeah.
So that's my favorite.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
It's on my list.
So now that you've given methat much information, I'll have
to look it up on Netflix orAmazon or something and watch
that soon.
Watch that soon.
I think that's actually part ofthe reason Kevin Costner got
called for Love of the Game wasbecause he was the only person
the producers could think ofthat would be able to do what
that part asked for.
But it just that's one of thosethat I think of oftentimes.
(20:56):
There's so many wonderful lifelessons in a lot of those movies
that are.
You know, I almost thinksometimes we should just kind of
abandon a lot of what we do inschool today and just show
movies and then have discussionsabout them afterwards.
You know we would.
We would grow better people, Ithink.
Overall.
Speaker 3 (21:13):
Well, you know it's true because casting for that,
I'm assuming Tim Robbins didplay baseball because he did
have good form as a pitcher.
It's kind of like Charlie Sheenin that movie Major League.
Charlie Sheen pitched baseballand was a pitcher in baseball in
high school.
Okay, so he knew so anyway.
But yeah, it's funny how itworks out.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
Yeah, so all right, jim.
Jim, if I call you Kavanaugh,to please extend some grace.
I don't know why, but eversince I've seen your name, jim,
carlo, for whatever reasons,when I think about you I think
Kavanaugh and I said so.
If that's it just, you know,slowly throw your fist out and
say, raul, my name is Carlo, ok,and I think I'll get it then
(21:59):
All right.
Speaker 3 (21:59):
Actually, actually, I won't say a word.
You're way too polite.
Actually, I won't say a word,they'll be just fine.
You're way too polite.
My brother, chris, was twoyears older than me and I went
through life following him inschool and we looked a lot alike
at those ages and I got calledChris an awful lot, yeah, so
(22:19):
it's okay.
Speaker 2 (22:25):
With a name like Raul LaBrush.
I try to be more sensitiveabout names than that.
I can't tell you how manypermutations of Raul LaBrush
I've heard over the course of mylifetime.
So, jim, I'm really fascinatedand excited, I guess, to talk
about.
You have your sheet that youput out and those of you that I
know I never said any of this.
Let me go back a little bithere to explain a little bit
(22:45):
about who Jim Carlo is.
Jim's an accomplished businessstrategist, a speaker and an
author.
He has successfully drivenexplosive growth for health care
organizations, from startups toindustry leaders.
Jim is a trusted expert inbuilding high performing teams,
revitalizing underperformingbusinesses and guiding
(23:05):
organizations throughtransformational change.
Now, that's tough to live up to, but what's missing in that?
What got you to that point,john, that you became that
person with 30 years ofexperience?
Speaker 3 (23:24):
Probably luck and hard work.
You know, one of the things mydad always said to us is you may
not be the best at what you do,but if you work the hardest at
what you do, people will noticethat.
And I've had a number of peoplewho have worked for me who have
(23:46):
said you work way too hard.
And then I have my wife whosays I don't work hard enough,
but I'm just kidding.
She walked in the door a littlewhile ago so she probably heard
that is throwing a pockettowards my direction.
You're going to pay for that.
So don't worry, I'll pay forthat.
But but it's, it's really, butit's really hard work.
(24:09):
And one of our childrenrecently got promoted and he
works at Hewlett Packard andhe's a director at the age of 34
.
Wow, and I was congratulatinghim and saying you know, your
work ethic, you know, is verynotable.
And he said but, dad, I gotthat from you.
(24:31):
He said I never liked doinghomework, but I saw you doing
homework every night.
And he said, and I'm looking atmy dad, saying, well, my dad's
doing work, homework.
I guess I should be doingschool homework.
Yeah, and anyway, so that appledidn't fall far from the tree.
But I am blessed with a greatwife and three great children.
(24:56):
The children are all off thepayroll, they are all off the
cell phone bill, they're all offthe health insurance.
So we did our job.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
Welcome to the world.
So let's talk about the sixpillars of effective leadership.
I looked at that list integrity, focus, empathy, compassion,
humor, stability, compassion,humor, stability.
(25:30):
And right away, the first wordout of the gate with that
listing, integrity strikes me assomething that is woefully
lacking, woefully lacking inmany aspects of our nation right
now.
And it's not political fingerpointing, it's just, uh, almost
the the new normal right now isthat integrity at least what
(25:53):
I've always thought of integrityas being is now relative or
something, because you can.
You can twist it, shape, shapeit, mold it, and you're still
being a person of integrity.
But integrity to what or withwhat kind of thing?
(26:14):
So I actually wanted to look itup.
I looked up the word because itstrikes me that part of why
this happens is that people losea sense of the definition of
the word that is being purportedto be true and it's just not.
Let me find that quick, if Ican.
Yeah, of course not, of coursenot.
(26:37):
Um, cut all this space out.
There we go.
Integrity this would have beengood to have figured out ahead
of time, wouldn't it?
(26:58):
Here we go.
The steadfast adherence to astrict moral or ethical code,
the state of being unimpaired,soundness, the quality or
condition of being whole orundivided completeness.
That first definition is theone that I guess I always have
(27:18):
used or purported to be themeaning of integrity, the
steadfast adherence to a strictmoral or ethical code.
So my question to you is inthis world today, where the
adherence to a strict moral andethical code has become relative
, because the morals and ethicsare relative, what does
(27:41):
integrity mean anymore?
Speaker 3 (27:44):
Well, I go with the first part of that and that's,
you know, sticking.
So it's funny because yourelate it to the political scene
.
It really hit me hard.
In 19, in november of 1983 okay, the year I graduated college I
got elected elected in myhometown to be a city councilman
(28:05):
at the age of 23.
Holy cow, and shortly after theelection, and long before cell
phones, the city manager calledme, or city administrator called
me and asked if I'd come in andhave a chat with him.
And I went in and I didn't knowwhat Don was going to say, but
I knew who he was and hadstarted to get to know a lot of
(28:27):
the people who ran the community.
And we sat down and we talkedfor a bit and he congratulated
me on winning.
He said you know, you're asmart guy, you're going to make
a great councilman, you're agreat addition to lead this town
.
He said I'm going to ask you onefavor and he said I hope you
(28:51):
take this favor seriously.
He said every night when you goto bed and you put your head on
the pillow and right before youclose your eyes, I want you to
ask yourself the followingquestion Did I do anything today
for my own self-benefit at theexpense of another individual
(29:17):
group of individuals,organization or community?
If you answer yes to thatquestion, you need to
immediately rethink that day andhow and what you're going to do
to repair the damage that youcause to those people.
I hope you have very few ofthose days and I hope you have
(29:41):
many days when the answer is no.
I've asked myself that questionevery night since November of
1983.
It is rare that I've ever saidyes To me.
That's integrity.
It's doing.
(30:02):
I explain it to people of ifyou're looking at a roadway and
there's a middle, then there's aline in the middle of the road
but no traffic.
You are always on that centerline of the road, never too much
to the left, never too much tothe right.
I also try to teach people whoare new to leadership the
(30:25):
importance of it, and especiallywhen you're new because you're
being measured by everybodyaround you more critically when
you step into either aleadership role or a new role.
And if you don't have integrity, you won't have trust with your
(30:47):
team.
If you don't have trust withyour team, they will not believe
in you or fully support you andif you were in the military,
wouldn't follow you into battle,and so to me, it is the one
(31:08):
pillar.
To me that is non-negotiable,and my teams, wherever I have
been, have understood that, andI've always driven that same
pathway.
Speaker 2 (31:23):
And I could not agree with you more, honestly, could
not, if I tried, agree with youmore.
I think where I struggle andmaybe this is me just getting
thinking about too much of the Idon't know what it is the
emotional, the spiritual warfarethat's going on now.
(31:44):
But when I see kids wanting tobe influencers, you know that's
a job now, apparently aninfluencer right.
And where it falls down for meis that the ethics of doing for
others, you know, not doing forme first, doing for others first
and trying to keep that centerline mentality of, yes, this is
(32:07):
good for me, this is going to begood for me, doing for others
first and trying to keep thatcenter line mentality of yes,
this is good for me, this isgoing to be good for me, it's
good for us, it's good foreverybody.
It seems to have been supplantedby a group of folks in all
kinds of places that thinkthat's simpy, you know, you're
some sort of a moron.
No one gets ahead that way andthat selfishness that's you know
(32:33):
, me first, thinking, you know,seems to me.
It's so utterly obvious thatthat's the downfall of
everything that makes Americagreat to be in that place.
And yet I don't't know how doyou teach someone that has
(32:54):
turned their back on integrityto recognize that you've turned
your back on the one thing thatwill make you a good leader or a
leader?
It's like every man out forhimself.
Speaker 3 (33:02):
I really it's, it's very, it's very difficult and it
bothers me sometimes, but whatI believe in is if I make my
people better, they make mebetter.
Yeah, and there's nothing thatI enjoy more than telling
somebody your next job awaitsyou and you're about to be
(33:23):
promoted, and it's no differentthan sending your child off to
college or to kindergarten.
That feeling of I'veaccomplished what I set out to
do and I made somebody elsebetter.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
Do you ever feel like , if you see someone that is
just a bad leader, is in aleadership role and they are
just bad at it, they're doingthe things that no good leader
does?
Do you ever feel a need, orhave you ever confronted those
people and say I don't know howto tell you this, but, um, I'm
(34:01):
going to tell you, what you'redoing is absolutely antithetical
to good leadership, and this iswhy Is that?
What's lacking?
Do we need more people thatwill just stand up and call out
bad leadership when they see it?
Speaker 3 (34:16):
I think the problem that we have is, if you do in
that leader's personality,you're going to be displaced.
Unfortunately, no, I haven't,but I've only worked in my
career for two leaders wholacked integrity and I didn't
last long.
And I, because I would not workin that environment and I
(34:40):
encourage people.
I was speaking at theUniversity of North Texas in
February and I was in a lecturehall.
I had about, I'm going to say,80 or 90 students in them.
They were all seniors gettingready towards looking forward to
graduation and I was talkingabout the six pillars and I was
(35:01):
talking about the importance ofintegrity and I was also talking
about the importance of beingable to enjoy the job that you
had and that you know.
Life is too short to work forsomebody who lacked integrity.
And I said you know?
And people started askingquestions related to work
situations and I said you know,we have a.
I have a lot that I want tocover today, but I have no plans
(35:25):
after this that I want to covertoday, but I have no plans
after this.
If you would like to come upand talk to me or outside in the
hallway about your situations,I'd be more than happy to talk
through them.
Of that 80 or 90 people, 20people stayed Wow.
Of those 20, over half of themhad leaders or managers.
(35:47):
Most of them worked in retailsettings a coffee shop, a dress
shop or whatever who lackedintegrity, and one was so
lacking, I would say, was bordercriminal person to immediately
try to find another position andanother job because I was
(36:09):
fearful that if left alone withthat individual for whatever
reason, that something bad couldhappen.
That's how bad I felt.
Wow, and it's to me and it's tome.
One of the reasons I wrote thebook was in mentoring people for
(36:31):
25 years.
Integrity has always been thenon-negotiable pillar for me but
, like you said earlier, it'sthe one thing that I think is
lacking most in what we seearound us.
And I don't think social mediahelps us.
No, because social media givespeople the opportunity to take a
stand and go hide, throw a,throw a grenade over the ceiling
(36:54):
.
You know, attack somebody andgo hide and and in the media.
I stopped watching the newsduring COVID and it and going
back to college.
I had a class in college calledContemporary Moral Values.
There was no book for the class, no textbook.
(37:15):
You had to bring to class theWall Street Journal or the New
York Times or the WashingtonPost and you had to be prepared
to discuss in the class thearticle and be able to dissect
the religious background of thereporter and the political
(37:36):
background of the reporter andwhat they were trying to
convince you to believe in.
This was in the early 80s Boy.
This was in the early 80s Boyand it's the class I remember
most and apply daily.
(37:57):
Yeah, it's so slanted.
Speaker 2 (38:05):
Yeah, I think everyone needs at least one
philosophy course.
The courses I remember the mostwere my philosophy courses.
I think I took three of them asan undergraduate and the guy
that taught was.
He just made you think aboutthings, which is, I think,
perhaps that set.
The root of all of this is thatI like your analogy we just lob
bombs over the wall and then gohide, and it doesn't.
(38:28):
No one has to take account foror give account for their
actions.
Um, which is a horrible placeto be.
Um, you know, you can sayanything you want about me, but
please say it to my face.
You know, I just as soon havean opportunity to not only learn
because even in the meanestthings there's often some kernel
of truth, but there's also anopportunity for me to make some
(38:52):
sort of amends if needed.
There's an opportunity for meto counterpoint and say well, I
understand why you feel, but youunderstand this.
To have a dialogue and we're?
I honestly think we're a nationof cowards.
To have a dialogue and we're, Ihonestly think we're a nation
of cowards all the time.
You know, yeah, they just it.
So it seems so blatantlyobvious to me that you know
(39:15):
we're we're just running around,afraid to have arguments that
are meaningful and will move usforward.
I don't know.
I, I, I, I hope.
I wish that there was some wayfor us to come up with a formula
for how to change someone withno integrity into a person that
has integrity, to make themwoefully aware of their lack of
(39:39):
integrity so that they comearound and see the light.
Have you seen anything thathappens in your teachings and
your teachings where a lightgoes on in someone's eyes that
they were thinking, yeah, kindof looping fast, like loose,
like man, don't pin me down, andall of a sudden kind of got it
that, yeah, wait a minute, or isthat?
(40:00):
Does life have to knock thatout of us?
Do you think?
Speaker 3 (40:05):
I think life has to knock you out of that, and I
think sometimes adversity has tois the wake-up call and
something happens.
You know, I I look at leaderswho, um, continually take the
next level and or are, every twoyears, replacing the people at
(40:26):
that level below them, and Icall that the shuffling of the
chairs on the Titanic.
And I call it that becauseeventually that boat is still
going to sink.
How long can that leader getaway with explaining to their
board that the issue isn't them,it's the people underneath them
(40:50):
who that person hired.
That is the problem.
I mean, how many times do thechairs have to shift for people
to recognize what's going on?
Sure, and you know,unfortunately that happens a
fair amount.
It doesn't happen all the time,but I've seen it happen, right,
(41:10):
and you know, and you'redisplacing people that you
believed in and probably stillbelieve in, but don't want to
admit that you're the problem,right of like lincoln.
Speaker 2 (41:29):
You know he uh, that's the the book about him
that they made the movie on.
But he, he purposely sought outpeople in his cabinet that
would disagree with him.
You know, there he had that,that genius about him that said
I don't want a bunch of peoplearound me that are just going to
say, oh yes, mr brethren, ohyes, he wanted people that were
going to say that's thestupidest idea I've ever heard.
You and and challenge him, andhe was willing to accept that,
you know.
(41:49):
Ok, well, tell me why it's thestupidest idea you've ever heard
.
He wasn't afraid of it, hewasn't a coward about hearing
about his own lack of thinkingthrough something completely.
Do you find that that's ameasure of a level of people's
integrity?
That they surround themselveswith people that they're
vulnerable, transparent enoughwith that they can say you're
(42:12):
right, I screwed up.
I think of my wife.
I mean my wife, god, god blessher.
You know, 39 years has put upwith me number one, but she has
also never wavered from being awoman of integrity and, you know
, being willing to call me whenI have totally screwed up or
when I have not done what I saidI was going to do you know, and
I was angry about it, you know,partly because she caught me in
(42:34):
it and partly because I knew,damn it, she was right, you know
kind of thing, and I think thatthat's what makes us better.
You know, you get to a certainpoint and realize you know well,
dummy, you figure it out right.
Get to a certain point andrealize you know well, dummy,
you'll figure it out right.
Is that what's missing in someof these folks?
Speaker 3 (42:56):
Like you can't force people to keep people around
that they don't want around,though, can you?
You can't.
And I kind of make the analogy.
It's like the store worker whotakes a dollar out of the drawer
today and tomorrow it's $2, andthen it's $5, and then it's two
dollars, and then it's fivedollars, and then it's ten
dollars, and you know.
And then eventually they getcaught and it's no different,
you know.
Then they're in a world of hurtand that wake-up call happens
(43:17):
and they they're facing you know, a judge or something else, or
they've done something worse.
And then all of a sudden, theyrealize I, I don't have a choice
anymore.
Well, I do have a choice.
I can go to prison and I can bethe person that I, that I that
I am, or I can try to be betterand learn how to be different.
Um, in that environment, andcome out stronger right, but you
(43:40):
know it's everywhere we turn.
You know, I stopped watching thenews before covid or during
covid because I couldn't believeanything.
I didn't believe what I was,what I was hearing, and I didn't
believe.
It didn't make sense to me, anddifferent stations had
different opinions on things.
And you know, I own, and tothis day I, if I watch the news,
(44:01):
I'm watching it for the weatherand the sports scores, and I
really, because there's very fewgood news stories in the news
or in the press and we'rebombarded with negativity, we're
bombarded with disaster on theleft, disaster on the right, and
(44:25):
and and we don't often show thegood in the world.
Yeah, and that's missing too.
Yeah, and I think that's why,when I started to write the book
and I started to write,integrity was number one on my
list.
I was like you know, this isthe mountain that I have to
(44:48):
stand on, it's so important tome.
But if, if, I can impact 20people and those people can
impact 20 people.
And I mean, I'm not going tochange the world, I don't intend
to, I don't have the time to,I'm too old, but the reality is
I at least can know that I'veleft the place better than I
(45:10):
found it.
Speaker 2 (45:10):
Yeah, yeah, my dad told me, I think, when I was
just out of college.
He said he had a spike that hetook out of his pocket and it
was an older, like railroad kindof spike but much thinner.
You know the type, like asquare nail, which I I haven't
(45:31):
seen that anymore that we maymake those.
But, um, I said you know hepans out and he says, look at
that.
And I'm like okay, yeah, andsaid I carry that around because
there was a guy that I believein that hung on a cross, on
something similar to that, a lotbigger.
And I think about how thatperson did what he did, because
he believed that in all of that,that it was going to make
(45:54):
things better for everyone else.
He knew that was what he neededto do and he did it.
He said that reminds me that Ineed to do it in my life is to
just try to do whatever I can,to believe whatever I can, can
to do the best that I can forthe people around me, and that
the worst thing they'll be ableto say after I'm dead is that,
yeah, he was kind of an idiot,but you know he made the world a
(46:16):
better place.
He tried.
He tried to make it a betterplace.
I don't know that there's muchmore noble ambition than that,
honestly.
But so integrity, integrity,integrity.
Boy, anyone listening there, ifyou know six people or twenty
people, tell them aboutintegrity and tell them about
Jim's book that they need toread about that because it's the
number one thing we can talkabout.
(46:37):
One other thing, because we'regoing to run out of time here
before you know it.
Speaker 3 (46:41):
You know what that means.
You know what that means whenwe run out of time.
I have to come back.
Speaker 2 (46:52):
I was hoping.
Oh god, thank you, god, thankyou.
He said that, yes, I was,because we're only going to get
through like half of this nextone too.
Um, focus is one I I can comeback to it some more time
because as an actor, as atrained actor, I I have stories
to tell about focus too and howhow critical it is to really
getting anything done andaccomplishing anything of real
merit.
(47:14):
But empathy was the word thatjumped out to me next, and I see
there's so much going on now inleadership training and you
know, throughout you see allkinds of empathy workshops and
whatnot, and part of that is alittle bit bothersome to me
because it it's, uh, to monitor,to monetize empathy seems to me
to be kind of like you knowwhat happened to christmas, you
know it just, um, and it itconcerns me because empathy,
(47:38):
again, I think, is somethingthat you you learn by going
through tough things, reallyreally tough, and enduring
through them and trying to findin the midst of it either the
meaning that was there, oraccepting that you won't find
any meaning and just waiting forperhaps the meaning comes later
(48:00):
.
But the most critical elementfor me has always been that you
learn how to be softer to thenext person that comes along,
because you're not seeing itjust as a and I'll pour them.
You're feeling it with them,you're in that you go back to
being in that same place or alike place, and it allows a
level of communication, a levelof interaction that just doesn't
(48:24):
happen otherwise.
So what brought you to wantingto make empathy?
It's a number three thing inthe list, but it could probably
be one or two sometimes.
Speaker 3 (48:37):
So I'll tell you a story.
So early in my career I lackedcompassion and I lacked empathy,
but I had a situation in theearly 2000s.
I worked for a technologycompany and I had a group of
software developers and supportpeople in Oakland, california,
that were maintaining a piece oftechnology that was old green
(48:58):
screen capabilities.
You remember those days?
Speaker 2 (49:02):
Yeah, character-based interfaces.
Speaker 3 (49:05):
Yes, and we were developing Windows-based
interfaces.
Woo, yes, so, and we weredeveloping Windows-based
capabilities to replace it.
Okay, and we were at the pointwhere we had introduced the
Windows capabilities and we wereabout to introduce the second
generation of the Windowscapabilities and we had made the
corporate decision that we weregoing to force people to
(49:26):
convert to a Windows platformand get rid of the green screen.
And I had the privilege ofhaving to tell the people that
their jobs would be going awayover how I was going to present
(49:53):
it to them, because I had to beable to convey to them that I
couldn't afford for them to allwalk out the door, because we
had customers to support,because the implementation
timeframe is 8 to 18 months onthe new technology and we had to
support these customers.
So I walked in and I made themthree promises.
First promise I will give youas much notice as I feasibly can
(50:16):
and as far in advance as I can.
So if I know customer X isconverting in January 1 of next
year guess what?
You have eight months notice.
If I know it's six months, youhave six months notice.
If I know it's six months, youhave six months notice.
So that was commitment numberone.
Commitment number two if youwant to learn the new
technologies and and geteducation on how to support them
(50:37):
or how to code for them or howto do whatever for them so that
you can move from where you aretoday to those that department
over there, I will provide thataccess to that knowledge and
education during the workdaybetween now and when your
departure date is.
That was commitment number two.
Commitment number three if youdidn't want to walk work still
(51:00):
commitment number two if youwanted to stay with the company
and you didn't want to go to thenew technology, I would
personally help you find a newjob within our company that
you're suited for.
That you can succeed at.
Third commitment If you decidedyou didn't want to stay with
the company, when it's your timeto go, I will also personally
(51:22):
help you during that period ofnotice and when it's the end of
time and help you get a job onthe outside of the organization
that's right for you that youcan succeed at.
My sole goal was to ensure thatnobody quit before it was time
for them to leave.
I achieved that goal.
(51:42):
About six months later I get acall from HR to come in.
They want to come and speak tome and the woman from HR came
down and sat down in my officeand her boss my boss wasn't with
her, so I knew I wasn't gettingfired and she said I have the
results from the employeesatisfaction survey and I want
(52:05):
to talk about your team inOakland, california, and I said
how bad is it?
She said that's the problem.
They have the highestsatisfaction score out of the
entire organization and we have20,000 employees and the second
tier happiest employees was asignificant drop below where
(52:28):
they scored.
Why do you have a departmentthat you're laying off have such
a high score?
And I said I don't know.
And she said well, what are youdoing?
And I said I made them threepromises and she said what were
(52:50):
those promises?
And I told her and she said youcouldn't have done it any
better.
And do you know, I saw thatthrough its transition and
everything.
And then it really surprised me.
I was not expecting that.
Speaker 2 (53:10):
Well, I mean, I'm listening to you tell the story
of what you did and thinking asa person.
If I was in one of thosepositions and you, you presented
my options to me that way,there would be no way you left
no out for a person to feelsorry for themselves.
(53:30):
You really didn't, which is andit wasn't like you were
contriving it.
I mean that would not work,that presentation would not work
if they sensed any ingenuity inyou.
So again we go back then tointegrity, that you had to have
displayed to them, a level ofintegrity that they knew that
they could take what you weresaying at face value and take it
(53:53):
to the bank, if you will.
So that's a wonderful,wonderful story of what is
sorely lacking.
People want to come and talk tome about making America great.
Again, america has always beengreat, thank you very much.
And you can lookinternationally at all the
(54:13):
things that we've done overhistory.
We have always been great.
And that that kind of story,that kind of situation, that
kind of individual, to have beenable to be raised up in our
nation and be able to do whatyou did with those people that's
what makes America great,that's what's always made
America great, is thatwillingness to think about
(54:35):
others and put yourself in theirplace and try to do what you
can for them.
That will help instead ofbanging them down.
Yeah, but that's veryencouraging.
Jim, thank you for that story.
Yeah, let's do that.
Let's do that every singleplace we possibly can, and in as
(54:58):
many ways as we can, because itgives people hope.
That's it, that's the hope.
Right Is to have that.
Speaker 3 (55:06):
That gives me hope that I can get past this
horrible thing because I haveoptions now right, correct,
correct, and that I would get,and nobody's going to be told
that their job is over on Friday, right, right.
Speaker 2 (55:19):
That's that uncertainty is what makes people
freak out.
You know, look at all theuncertainty right now and how
it's.
I believe honestly that all ofthat is freak out.
You know, look at all theuncertainty right now and how
it's.
I.
Speaker 3 (55:27):
I believe honestly that all of that is engineered
to make people more maneuverableor oh, absolutely and
vulnerable, and to say, hey, I'm, how do I not know, I'm not.
Next, I need to update myresume.
I need to, and I bet if they,if somebody looked at the
keystrokes on their computers,they're all at search firms
(55:48):
trying to get their next job,because nobody wants to be
without a paycheck.
People don't save, like ourparents taught us to save.
And when your company, whenyour country, is in such a debt
situation, you say, well, whycan't I be in that kind of
(56:08):
situation?
The country doesn't care, butthe country is not going to bail
you out.
Speaker 2 (56:14):
Yeah, we're going to bail the country out.
That's going to be the real funpart, you know.
So we how you build empathy.
Are there exercises or gosh?
(56:44):
I was thinking how those twoare integrity and empathy are so
intertwined with one another,and if we can find ways to build
the bridges for people.
Speaker 3 (56:57):
Yeah, I'm actually starting to think of a workshop
for the pillars that willinclude a lot of situational
role plays, where people get asituation and they have to think
through it and come up with aplan.
And because you know, until youexperience them, you can't read
(57:19):
a book about solving, you know,empathy problems or compassion
problems, people can tell youthis.
You have to show more caring.
Okay, what's that mean?
Until they practice it anduntil they experience it, and
until they, you know they're not.
That's why I always say youknow, leadership is a never
ending development role.
(57:39):
It it's constantly changing andyou're, you're constantly
changing.
Speaker 2 (57:45):
Yeah, yeah, that whole idea of dispelling the
myth of you're not born a leader, you create a leader, you know,
you, you work towards being aleader um, is very, very true.
That's been my experience too.
You just the leaders, the bestleaders I know are ones that got
knocked down and got up andknocked down and got up and, you
know, thought through how arewe going to not do this again?
You know type of thing.
(58:06):
So, folks, my guest this weekhas been Jim Carlo, or Kavanaugh
, depending on who you'retalking to in my brain.
So Jim is a experiencedleadership mentor.
I'm calling that.
If you had to give yourelevator speech, how would you?
How do you introduce yourselfto people?
Speaker 3 (58:24):
Jim.
I'm a corporate leader whobelieves in developing others'
ability to lead for the future.
Speaker 2 (58:31):
That works.
That works for me.
It's an elevator speech.
I probably won't remember itthe next time we talk because
I'll be thinking about all thethings I want to ask you about.
But, Jim, it's been such apleasure talking with you,
getting to know you.
I will look forward to figuringout another time to get
together to carry on ourconversation.
I hope you've enjoyed yourselfas well.
Speaker 3 (58:51):
I I have this was a lot of fun.
It was.
This has been a great exchange,and it's these great exchanges
are good, because you may notget through everything you want
to, but you go deep in so manythings.
People can really grasp on towhat actually we're talking
about.
I hope so.
Speaker 2 (59:09):
I hope so.
So I will look forward withbated breath as we say in the
theater to our next conversationhere on Frame of Reference
Profiles in Leadership.
Thank you.
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