Canadian Snipers, Hard Choices, Honest War Stories

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A rifle on a rooftop isn’t a movie moment—it’s a profound responsibility. We sit with retired Canadian Army sniper Barry Nisbet and author and former U.S. Army Ranger Mir Bahmanyar to unpack what snipers really do when deployed to places like Bosnia and Afghanistan and why their new book, Send It, pushes past the myths of their missions and duties. Barry brings the ground truth from five operational tours and a rare first for a Canadian corporal at U.S. Army Ranger School. Mir adds the historian’s eye and a Ranger’s respect for standards, sharing why he pulled real practitioners into the manuscript to keep the record straight.

We walk through the job as it is lived: building a sniper from disciplined infantry roots, the strict rules of engagement that govern every trigger press, and the invisible victories of overwatch that keep patrols alive. Barry breaks down night insertions, fragile hides, the exposure that comes with calling in artillery or air, and the nerve it takes to exfiltrate when the sun rises and the enemy knows you’re there. The conversation lingers where most war stories don’t—accepting risk without bravado, carrying loss without turning it into spectacle, and holding fast to the internal standards that separate professionals from pose.

Mir challenges the hype that flattens soldiers into slogans and war into entertainment. He argues for honest military history that preserves detail, context and consequence, and he credits Canadian sniper teams with a level of professionalism and restraint too often missing in popular narratives. Along the way we touch on leadership that actually protects people, the mental skills forged in stalking lanes and fieldcraft, and the quiet rituals—dogs, long walks, small places far from crowds—that help recalibrate after hard tours.

If you care about modern military history, leadership under pressure, or how precision and patience save lives, this one will stick with you. Listen, then pick up Send It for the full story told by the people who were there. If the conversation resonates, follow the show, share it with someone who values honest storytelling, and leave a review so more listeners can find it.

Thanks for listening. Please check out our website at www.forsauk.com to hear great conversations on topics that need to be talked about. In these times of intense polarization we all need to find time to expand our Frame of Reference.

Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_03 (00:01):
Well, welcome everybody to another edition of
Frame of Reference Profiles andLeadership.
And today I get to do one ofthose rare things when I
actually get to talk to twoleaders from two perspectives
that share some commonexperiences, not the least of
which is that they co-authored abook together, but we'll talk
about that in a bit.
So, and they are uh we've beentalking a little bit beforehand,

(00:24):
and it's always a good sign whenI can laugh with my guests
before we get going.
It sort of sets the tenor forthings very well.
But uh I'll introduce themquickly and and then uh I'm
gonna let them say, and by theway, I'm also this.
So, because I I have a tendencyto do the elevator pitch, and
then I want them to let you knowwho they really are.
Okay.
So my guests today are BarryNisbet.

(00:46):
So Nisbet, yes, Nisbet.
So a retired, we talked aboutthis too, didn't we, Barry?
So boring colonial name, I thinkwas how it was called or
something.
But uh commoner, that's acommoner.
Uh Barry Nisbet is a retiredCanadian Army infantry sergeant
who served over 14, 15 yearswith the 1st Battalion in the
Royal Canadian Regiment, theRCR, based in Petawawa.

(01:10):
Did I get that right?
Petawawa?
Petawawa.
Petawawa.
Okay, Petawa.
So it sounds like BarbaraWalters asking for Wawa.
So Petawa, Ontario, enlisting in1997, retiring in 2012.
He completed five, five, as ifone wasn't enough, five
operational tours.
Kosovo in 1999, Bosnia in 2003,and Afghanistan was uh threesome

(01:37):
at 2005, 2006, and 2010.
Because once is not enough,twice is not enough, you got to
go three times, I guess, toAfghanistan.
And in 2003, Barry became thefirst, the first Canadian
soldier at the rank of corporalto graduate from the U.S.
Army Ranger School, paving theway for more to follow.

(01:57):
Over the years, he earnednumerous qualifications,
including basic parachutist,mortar man, machine gunner,
reconnaissance patrolman, andbasic through advanced sniper.
He went on to teach many basicsniper courses, training
schools, or training soldiers,sorry, from both the regular

(02:18):
infantry and C S O R.
The Canadian, is that CanadianSpecial Operations Regiment.
Okay, thank you.
Um, so recently he co-authoredSend It, Canadian Canada Snipers
at War in Afghanistan, which isa modern military memoirs.
Um, and I just was able to reada little bit of it.

(02:38):
And those of you that would liketo know more, it's it's a
fascinating book.
It is really readily or inreality written by soldiers that
were there in that war and theirtheir reflections.
So you want to talk getting areal flavor of how it is to be
at war and be a sniper in a war.
And along with him is one of theco-authors.

(02:59):
So Mir M.
Bamayar, Baumanyar, Ba-manyar.
Spot on.
Banyanyar.
Ban say that 10 times fasterall.
Ba-manyar.
So yes, Bomir brings a uniqueperspective to the military
history, having lived in fourcountries across three
continents.
I was gonna say, you don't soundlike you're from Wisconsin,

(03:22):
Amir.
I'm just saying.
So uh or Canada.
Or Canada.
Yeah.
I just I just heard a very funnyjoke about Canada Canadians.
It said, how do you get 20Canadians to go into freezing
cold lake in the middle ofwinter?
Ask them nicely.
Ask them nicely.

(03:43):
So I thought, you know, that'sso true of Canadians.
So but Mir holds a BA, abachelor's degree in history
from the UC Berkeley.
What a slouch school.
Geez.
Then enlisted.
They were better ones.
Well, for history, I suppose.
So uh yeah, and uh he was hethen enlisted in the 2nd

(04:04):
Battalion, 75th Ranger Regiment,and earned an MA in war studies
from King's College London.
Now, at least you were movingupwards in your trajectory for
schools.
So I'm probably gonna get somestanding in people from Berkeley
saying, What are you talkingabout?
So, anyways, I'll bring it on,bring it on.
Uh here uh his jobs haveincluded, and this is what I

(04:24):
find is really fascinating,Mirror.
His jobs have included libraryclerk, janitor, bookstore owner,
security services, militarytechnical advisor, German
language coach, producer, andwriter in Hollywood.
So, and and as if that's notenough, he also writes

(04:45):
thrillers.

SPEAKER_01 (04:46):
So I was not successful in Hollywood.

SPEAKER_03 (04:51):
Well, that's maybe not a bad thing, too, Mir.
Maybe not a bad thing.

SPEAKER_01 (04:55):
You make it sound like it's fantastic, but anyway.

SPEAKER_03 (04:58):
I just think it's a wonderful trajectory for a
career.
You know, I think of mine, I wasa silk merchant for a while, a
college professor for a while.
Right.
You know, it just the people,our road goes multiple ways
during life, right?
So, gentlemen, thank you.
Did I get anything wrong besidesyour name, Mir?
I, you know, struggled, but inNews, but uh last names were a

(05:19):
problem today, I guess.
Sounded good to me.
Okay, anything else you want toadd to that?
Uh I mean, there's a ton ofstuff that I didn't read on
these, but uh that I tried tohit the high points at least.

SPEAKER_01 (05:31):
But well, I can tell you, Barry is the real soldier.
Okay, and then there's me whospent like two years active
duty, and then I got a medicaldischarge.
So I come from the peacetimeschool of militarism.
So the job as a library clerkwas my very first job uh after
we had immigrated to California,by the way, when I was 16, I

(05:53):
think, at that time.
So that was my first job.
And the best job was janitor atour local uh community college.
Okay.
So this is the greatest jobever.
You know, years anyways.

SPEAKER_03 (06:03):
Years ago, I uh I directed plays at one of the
local high schools, actually,two of our local high schools.
And um I always found that thejanitors were the people I most
enjoyed talking with.
Um they knew the kids, they saw,you know, things in ways that
were very, you know, there wasno political or emotional, just
they they knew the kids, theygot along with the kids, they

(06:25):
you know, saw the trajectory ofwhat was happening to students
in general.
Um and the office staff wereoften, you know, always people I
always enjoyed talking with.
And I didn't know until yearslater, people told me, you know,
that was one of the smartestthings you do when you come into
a school like that as an afterhours coach, make friends with
the office staff and thejanitors because that will save
you so much grief in so manyways.

(06:47):
So, and I thought, oh, you know,I wasn't even doing it beyond
the fact that I just enjoyedtheir company.
But well, as long as I goteverything right so far, or at
least close enough to realitythat we won't complain.
Um, let's let's get into it.
And uh, I always like to startwith the uh my favorite thing
segment.
If one of these days, my my hopeand dream is that I will have
enough money that I could maybeeven hire Julie Andrews to do a

(07:09):
version of it that we could usejust for our show.
Uh good luck with that, Rawl.
So but uh this is our rapid firekind of Roar Shocktian, you
know, approach to things, justto have people get a chance to
know you.
The last time I had uh twoguests on like this, it was a
husband and wife.
So I don't know that I got thereal thing there because you
know there's always a littlebit, ooh, I don't want to say

(07:30):
that one.
Um, but you just blurt out thefirst thing that comes, and if
we need to edit it out, uh wewon't.
So there you go.

SPEAKER_01 (07:38):
Barry is the younger brother.
So we're not the husband andwife.

SPEAKER_03 (07:42):
We're like Barry, how long have you been putting
up with Mary?
A decade at least.
A decade at least probably seemslike a thousand years, too,
doesn't it?
Probably at least.
All right, gentlemen, and nowlet both of you can answer the
question.
What's let's start easy.
Favorite color for each of you?

(08:03):
Barry?
I'm gonna say blue.
Okay.
Oh okay, then I'll pick purple.
Purple.
Okay.
Just had a guest that put pickpurple.
And I I'm kind of a blue guymyself.
So yeah, I like blue also, but Ilike a bluish purple.

SPEAKER_01 (08:16):
So since since he stole my answer, I'm gonna give
you the purple.

SPEAKER_00 (08:20):
You you go you can go first in the next one.

unknown (08:22):
Okay.

SPEAKER_03 (08:23):
Well, it was interesting because the guest
that I had actually uh um is ahead of an organization called
U.S.
United, and it's uh a group thathe basically formed it to be
able to get everyone to worktogether towards a united States
of America.
So and it was fascinatingbecause he he said the color was
purple, and I said, that'sinteresting.

(08:44):
He said, Yeah, it's thecombination of blue and red.
Yep, yeah, okay, and there wego.
Makes sense.
How about your favorite food,Barry?

SPEAKER_00 (08:53):
Well, Mir gets to go first.

SPEAKER_01 (08:55):
Oh, I thought you were first this time.
Oh, no, you don't know it'syeah, that's a good one.
I will have to say, I'm gonna gowith Italian food because I had
a lot of it when I was in Sicilyresearching one of my books, and
it was really fantastic.
Any particular dish in theItalian segment?
No, nothing really, just a verysimple pasta dishes, you know,
nothing fancy, just solidtraditional quality food.

(09:18):
Okay, good complex.

SPEAKER_03 (09:20):
Yeah, yeah, good complex carbohydrates too.
So and so, but and and lots ofthat food is prepared with so
much love that you know I thinkthat kind of permeates the pasta
sometimes.
So, how how about you, Barry?

SPEAKER_00 (09:34):
Uh uh Amir won't like this, but I'm gonna say I
love lamb.
Anything lamb, Middle Easternspices, lamb, that's always one
of my favorite dishes.

SPEAKER_03 (09:43):
Okay.
I don't think I was interestedor introduced to lamb until
college years.
I had a friend who was 100%Greek.
Uh his dad was a Greek Orthodoxlay priest.
Um, you know, he he GeorgeSugros, and uh we're still
friends to this day.
And uh he introduced me togyros, real gyros.

(10:05):
Um, and I uh the first time Ihad lamb, it was love at first
bite, uh, because it was justwonderful.
And the the the he his mom usedto make uh you know the homemade
lamb with you know the all thespecial secrets that she could
tell you, but then she'd have tokill you kind of thing.
So it's uh I I can identify withboth of you guys.

(10:25):
Good choice, it's good choice.
How about a favorite baked good?

SPEAKER_01 (10:30):
Oh, well, I'm I'm gonna be like the the snob and
tell you croissants.
Who are like those best okaywith a coffee?

SPEAKER_03 (10:37):
But as a Frenchman and French Canadian, I cannot
argue with that.

SPEAKER_01 (10:41):
So we and I didn't say it because of that.

SPEAKER_03 (10:44):
Of course you didn't, of course, no one ever
says it because a Frenchman ishere, so no one knew they say it
because it's true.
So yes, it is true.

SPEAKER_00 (10:55):
Barry, what's up?
Yeah, my mom makes this thischocolate caramel square, and
she always makes them atChristmas.
So and she's been making themforever.
So that's that's my favorite.

SPEAKER_03 (11:07):
He's a mommy's boy.
Yeah, well, you know, Iunderstand.
That's uh I was too.
I was the youngest in my family.
Did your mom do the thing?
My mom always did this thingwhere she would make all kinds
of candy.
I mean, her mom was a German,you know, German and French and
Irish mix of things, and she wasjust an excellent candy maker.
So she taught my mom all of thethings.

(11:28):
So mom would make divinity andcaramels and pinocci and fudge,
and you know, we'd have all thisstuff for for Christmas time.
And then I would want to eatsome of it, and she would be
like, Don't touch that, that'sour company, you know, and
company would never come, atleast not enough to eat like the
barrels of stuff she made.
So then they would get all sale,and she'd I'm not making that
anymore, nor ever eats it.

(11:50):
I'm like, Wall, I cannot winwith you, woman.
I cannot win.
So, how about a favorite quote?

SPEAKER_01 (11:58):
Oh, the the quote that I have in the Houdini Club,
that super long one by JackBeldon about how terrible uh
money grubbers are during war.
Okay, and how how much he hatesthem and how much he loves the
soldiers.
So it's a long quote.
Yeah, that's the one that'sgonna read it to you, but it's
right at the preface, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 (12:18):
Because I I think I know the one you're talking
about.
And it it's so true today still.

SPEAKER_01 (12:23):
Yes, yeah, yeah.
He he was great.
I I love Jack Feldman.
He accompanied Rangers of WorldWar II along some of their
combat missions in theMediterranean.
And you know, I read his bookand it's fabulous.
He died a pauper in Paris.
Uh so I don't know, somehow hiswriting has stuck with me, and
that's why I put it in the book,anyway.
That's my long-winded quote.

SPEAKER_03 (12:44):
Yeah, uh, that's uh yeah.
If you get if you get the book,folks, do read that.
It's it's one of those thingspeople jump to the the meat of a
book oftentimes, but you don'twant to miss that quote because
he's it's just it's uh just richwith pathos, and you know, he's
not he's saying it from thedepths of his heart, and I yeah,
I really appreciated that.
Uh so not to mention it's hardto argue with what he's saying.

(13:06):
Uh, I mean Eisenhower said it,you know, the the thing we have
to fear the most is the militaryindustrial complex because it Or
Barry, or Barry with a rifle.

SPEAKER_01 (13:14):
Yeah, well not anymore.

SPEAKER_03 (13:16):
Yeah, a long time ago.
Man, I I saw those, I think Itold you I saw the picture of
you as a young man with youryour rifle and thought, man, is
he ever a badass?
So, but uh you just have thatlook too.

SPEAKER_01 (13:28):
Yeah, in his own mind, but yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (13:32):
Well, now I'm seeing your smile, and I'm like, okay,
that was all obviously a facade.
So definitely.
So how about you, Barry?
What's your favorite quote?

SPEAKER_00 (13:41):
So I don't even know who said it.
And it's it's funny.
I I actually had this writteninside one of my combat boots
decades ago.
And it's and I hope I don't messit up.
So it's it's fame is a vapor,popularity an accident, riches
riches have wings, and all thatendures is character.

(14:01):
And for some reason, that juststuck with me.
And and just it's yeah, uh thatwould be my favorite quote.
Don't even know who said it,never even bothered to try to
look it up.

SPEAKER_03 (14:14):
Wait, isn't that something those things that and
it's very inspirational, right?
And it helps to keep yourpriorities set to know how many
more people would be doing wellif they would have a maxim like
that that they live by.
So how about a favoriterecording artist?

SPEAKER_01 (14:33):
Well, I could be politically incorrect at this
moment and tell you the Irishrap band or hip-hop band
Kneecap.
Kneecap?

SPEAKER_03 (14:42):
I I'll confess I don't even know that band.
Where did you become aware ofthem?

SPEAKER_01 (14:46):
So well it's gonna rub some people the wrong way,
probably, but they're uh uh theyare Irish from Belfast.
Okay, so they don't like theBritish.
Okay, they don't like theEnglish, they don't like the
British, and uh they supportPalestinians and all human
rights kind of a thing, and sothey've taken quite a
shellacking lately because ofthat.

(15:07):
But uh but uh you know I've beeninto Belfast recently because
Northern Ireland, again, I'msorry, going back to World War
II.
Northern Ireland was the home,the birthplace really of the
first American Rangers in WorldWar II.
Okay, so I've been to NorthernIreland a lot, they're local
groups, so it just kind ofworked together.

SPEAKER_03 (15:28):
So that's that's it.
Like that much Irish, I think aquarter Irish in me, and uh or
eighth Irish.
My mom was she claimed nothingbut her Irish uh ness and would
say constelling you know, thereare only two types of people in
the world, those that are Irishand those that wish they were.
And then I got to play anIrishman in one of the plays I
was in years ago and said, Mom,mom, there are th there's a

(15:50):
third kind of Irishman.
I said, What's that?
And I said, Those that are gladthey ain't.
So, and uh she avoided I get abeating for that one.
So I love the Irish.
I the Irish are just uh there'sa wonderful play if you ever get
a chance to see.
Um, and I don't know, PBS did arecording of it called The
Bloody Irish, and it's all aboutthe uprising in 1918, and you

(16:12):
really get a flavor, I think, ofthe the core of Irish people and
those horrible English BritishWell, the Canadians have some of
that too, don't they?
Ah, the British, what do theyknow?
So get out of here.

SPEAKER_01 (16:29):
So yeah, so Ireland is a is a great place.
I include Northern Ireland inthat also.
And like I said, birthplace ofRangers.
Barry was went to Ranger school,so he's allowed by you know
remote, remotely he's allowed totake some pride in the fact that
the American Rangers werefounded in near Belfast in
Northern Ireland in 1942.

SPEAKER_03 (16:50):
Boy, I I was so happy my mom got to go to Ir
Ireland before she passed away.
So to County Cork, which iswhere her family is from.
So but how about you, Mr.
Nisbet?

SPEAKER_00 (17:02):
You know, I I don't have a favorite.
I like I I'll say I'm I likemostly rock type music, a
favorite.
Couldn't pick one.

SPEAKER_03 (17:12):
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (17:13):
Love music, listen to lots, lots of different
influences.

SPEAKER_03 (17:16):
A particular kind of rock?
Because there's so many, youknow, garage band to grunge to
you know, whatever.

SPEAKER_00 (17:23):
From when I was younger, you know, anything from
you know, Metallica to Guns N'Roses, anything other the
concerts I've seen, yep,definitely they were in there
too.
So yeah, Metallica, Guns N'Roses.
I still love the 90s sort ofgrunge, yeah, Alice and Chains,
Nirvana, you know, a lot ofthose those bands that now

(17:47):
they're all apparently classicrock.
So I don't know when thathappened.

SPEAKER_03 (17:52):
Well, my generation, you know, the 60s and 70s, I
don't know what that we'reprobably old and moldy rock or
something by now.
We used to be classic rock, butI think that you guys stole it
now from us.

SPEAKER_01 (18:05):
Barry made a mistake though.
Barry should have said that whathe loves the most to listen to
is Scottish bagpipes, but youknow, I don't think anybody
loves that.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (18:15):
What is that?
Is that a cat dying or is that abagpipe?
Yeah, I'm not sure.
It's got its time and place.

SPEAKER_01 (18:23):
The military tattoos at Edinburgh.
Oh, there is still likefascinating.
There you go.
But anyway.

SPEAKER_03 (18:28):
Actually, I play I talked about the bloody irish.
I think there's some uh bagpipesin that too.
That's the beautiful thing aboutthere's some really poignant
songs in the midst of it.
How about a favorite place to goto de-stress?

SPEAKER_01 (18:40):
Well, Mary, are you going first this time?

SPEAKER_00 (18:43):
Uh for me, it's anything outdoors with no
people.

SPEAKER_02 (18:47):
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (18:48):
So if it's walking my dog or just out on a hike, uh
I I camp a lot, canoe a lot.
So that is 100%, you know, nocell phone signal, just out with
people.

SPEAKER_03 (19:04):
No, no gun.
No gun, no people, no people.
That's so you can be quiet.
You don't have to I I get towalk two dogs every night, and
it's it's uh the best time ofthe day.
So, and I I need to actuallymake those walks longer because
it is it's just wonderful to beout there.
I'm one of the few people toothat drives my car, and I

(19:25):
usually don't have the radio on,and it drives my my daughter
nuts.
She's dad, you gotta put somemusic on.
I'm like, why?
I just want time to, you know,think, you know, it's just and
watch the scenery go by and allthat good stuff.
So how about you, Mir?

SPEAKER_01 (19:39):
Well, first and foremost, I'd like to know what
kind of dogs you have.
I know Barry's dog, so I've metthat, I've met his dog.

SPEAKER_03 (19:47):
But uh what kind of dogs do you have?
Oh, my I have uh we've alwayshad rescue animals, um, so that
they are mutts.
Uh, my my dog Daisy is uh she'sthe mother of the other dog.
So right before COVID hit, um,we had lost in 2019, we lost

(20:07):
three dogs.
We had uh a full beagle and twouh beagle terrier mixes.
One died in March, the other twodied in December, one right
before Christmas, one afterChristmas.
And it was just, we weredevastated.
I mean, it was I'm like, ho, ho,ho, Merry Christmas.
Damn it.
So um, but my daughter and Ilasted about three weeks.

(20:30):
Uh, my wife didn't want to getanother dog, and both of us were
so like, we're getting dogs, getget on the bandwagon or else,
because this is you can't livelike this.
So we got we went to the samepet rescue we've gotten the dogs
from.
And these two are uh Daisy is amix of Australian or American uh
shepherd.
We're not 100% sure, but she'sgot the variegated coat um and

(20:54):
has the uh Crimea eyes, oneblue, one brown.
Um, and it's just uh smart as awhip.
And she's a daddy's girl, youknow.
So of course the two of us arejust uh I come home, and that's
the thing about dogs, right?
You come home, you're the mostexciting thing in their whole
day.
And so people that are mean totheir dogs, I just I'm gonna
send them to you, Barry.

(21:15):
You get a sniper's bullet andjust have it for them, okay?
It just makes no sense to methat someone can be me.
That's just a sign of a realevil person in my mind.
Um, and then the other Dart,Dartignon, uh the three Beagles
we had were um they they were uhPorthos, Athos, and um and uh
Eramis.

(21:35):
So we had to have D'Artignon asa result of those three.
And uh D'Artignan, I call himDart the fart, because he's just
a you know, he'd be if since hewas three weeks old, he's been
with people.
So of course he thinks he's apeople.
And you know, it's just so uhthey're he's just so lovable and
so annoying at the same time.
Yeah, um, and again, smart ashis mom, you know, maybe a

(21:57):
little edge even.
Um, because it just uh thethings that he does and whatnot,
I I love walking with himbecause he'll just he's very
much like, where do you want togo, Dad?
And if he's got a way and hedoesn't really want to say it,
and I pick his way, he's alllike, good job, dad, good job,
and excited and walks on.
Um, but uh yeah, no, Iwonderful.

SPEAKER_01 (22:16):
Do you have dogs at home here?
I used to have dogs, and youknow, every time you put one
down or you lose one, you losepart of your soul.
So uh, but now but now I live inToronto in a small place
downtown.
And I think if I had a dog, I'dneed to be more like Barry to be
able to go outdoors and you knowhave some canoe time and river

(22:38):
time.
So no, but I I do think dailyabout getting a dog.
I prefer the pit bull type orthe uh the big Japanese American
Ikidas.
Okay, you know, I like largedogs, but uh no, no, currently
not.

SPEAKER_03 (22:52):
You need a mass teeth, that would be uh that'd
be awesome too.
I I don't discriminate big dogs.
You'd have more room, Mir if yougot rid of a few books.
I'm just saying.
He would.
He definitely would.

SPEAKER_01 (23:05):
I'm not even gonna I'm not gonna tilt the camera.
It'll be like insane.

SPEAKER_03 (23:08):
But well, we're not recording that uh that part of
it, so folks you're gonna haveto take my word for him.
He has a whole lot of books, andI'm noticing Send It and Houdini
Club are a lot, uh there's a lotof copies of that back there, so
that's good deal.
Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 (23:20):
Uh well I'm very proud of Sendit, of course.
But uh my favorite uh myfavorite place actually to be
relaxed is something thatrequires travel, which would
today be Sicily.
I as I told you, I went and didsome research on World War II
Rangers and went to Sicily andis the greatest place I've ever

(23:40):
been to.
And I'm I'm sure there are manyother places that are wonderful.
But if you asked me where wouldyou like to go to again, I would
go to Sicily and rent a car,drive around and stop at a small
place where there are two old uhSicilian women feeding homeless
cats, and they make you anespresso drink for 50 euro
cents, you know.
It's like and they're wonderful,and between pigeon English and

(24:03):
pigeon Italian, you can have aconversation.
Yeah.
So anyway, I I love Sicily verymuch.
It's a great place.

SPEAKER_03 (24:10):
So do both of you have a favorite historical
personality, someone that youlook back in the history and
think about it.

SPEAKER_01 (24:17):
All right, Barry, go home.
Go just get off the thing.
I'm gonna talk for the next twohours.

SPEAKER_00 (24:21):
I know, I know.
Just call call me when you wantme to chime in on a question.

SPEAKER_03 (24:27):
I'll send you a chat message, okay, Barry?
Yeah, mirror's finally done in2014 tomorrow.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (24:35):
I'll let Barry go first.

SPEAKER_00 (24:38):
I I'm gonna say Ernest Shackleton.
Oh, really?
Because of because of what did Isteal yours or no, no.

SPEAKER_03 (24:48):
No, uh Shackleton's fascinating, man.

SPEAKER_00 (24:50):
That's I'm and I just I I was always fascinated
with him, and then just withthat expedition, they and he
didn't lose a man, you know, andhe did everything he could do to
save his men, yeah, and and comeback for his men.
And you know, I'm sure there'sbad things about him too, but
um, you know, just based off ofthat, um interesting, uh

(25:14):
interesting person.

SPEAKER_03 (25:15):
He's sort of the epitome of duty and honor in my
mind.
I'm not I'm not sure if that'suh, you know, but as you say,
you know, don't know thatbackground, but uh to your
point, right?
He he understood and felt it washis duty uh to to return, and he
was an honorable enough man tosay, you know, this is going to
take sacrifice on my part, butthat's not the important part of

(25:36):
the equation.
So um interesting.
Yeah, well, isn't there ashackleton in Antarctica?
There's a Shackleton harbor orshackleton base.
I'm thinking that um that Iremember seeing on the J on the
maps, but I know there aremovies, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Didn't uh uh Kenneth Brano playhim?
Yep.

SPEAKER_01 (25:56):
So yeah, he wasn't that and that tells you a lot
about Barry right there.
Yeah, he likes to go out in thewoods with his dog, a canoe, no
people, and then he wants to bein a bigger version of a canoe
with a very few people go outinto some kind of wilderness
that nobody should go to.
I don't know, tells youeverything you need to know.

SPEAKER_03 (26:15):
My my dark sardonic humor is saying, and watch them
die horribly.
So I wasn't gonna say it.
No comment.
Sorry, Barry.
I'm sorry.
We're having too way too muchfun at your expense.
So that's all right.

SPEAKER_00 (26:30):
I'm used to it, I'm used to it with Mir.

SPEAKER_03 (26:32):
Okay.
Yeah, you have to get that armorup, right?
So he can handle it.
There you go.
He can handle the truth.
Okay, Mir, here go, here goeschapter 19 here.
Okay, right.

SPEAKER_01 (26:43):
So look, I'm gonna keep it really small, but
there's a long list of this.
You know, I love ancienthistory, and I I read way too
much from ancient throughmodern.
As you can tell, we we co-wrotea book on modern stuff.
So if we're talking abouthistorical personalities, you
know, I'm always fascinated bythese uh people like Hannibal,

(27:05):
the great Carthaginian, youknow, taking Rome to the very uh
brink of destruction for theRoman uh Republic.
I'm interested in that.
I'm interested in the kind ofpeople who create like the
Holocaust and you know, WorldWar II, like Adolf Hitler.
You're like, what, you know,what is going on?
You know, you want you want toknow this kind of stuff.

(27:26):
So I also think you know,someone like uh Eisenhower would
be interesting because he's amilitary guy, you know, and uh
becomes president, and then hiswhole uh military-industrial
political or congressionalcomplex, because I think
congressional got cut becausethere was an election coming up
and they didn't want to throwshade on Congress.
So, you know, it's always theselarger than life people.

(27:48):
I'm also interested, of course,like any any military historian.
I you know, I'm interested inNapoleon, I'm interested in
Richard Nixon, for example.
What a divisive character,right?

SPEAKER_00 (27:58):
So and there you just said one, you just said one
person.

SPEAKER_03 (28:02):
All right, if I had to pick one, I'm gonna pick.
He sits there quietly and thenjust puts it in.

SPEAKER_01 (28:08):
I can play, I can play his game.
Sends the bullet down range.
So, okay, if I had to pick one,it's tough.
For historical perspective, Iwould want to pick Adolf Hitler
because he's a guy everybodyknows, and you know, you want to
know what this monster is like.
If it were just historical, formy benefit, I would want to it's

(28:30):
it would be Hannibal theCarthaginian.
Okay.

SPEAKER_03 (28:32):
That would be the way you get both those names in
your diatribe.
That's where we're you know,that's good.
So there's uh Yeah, you know, Ihave more in theater.
Uh, one of the things we welearned in uh in acting classes
was that no one, no one seesthemselves as an antagonist.
So that lesson has always kindof you know percolated in my

(28:55):
brain that no matter how awful acharacter is that you're
playing, you have to find a wayto play them that says they're a
hero in their own mind somehow.

SPEAKER_02 (29:03):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (29:03):
Um, you know, that they have a they have a calling
that goes beyond, you know, whatnormal people understand.
Um, and oftentimes, you know,I've found too that the people
that are most admired um have avery dark side to them that um
if most people knew about it,they would be like, oh, oh, oh,
oh.
Um, you know, I think of peoplelike Trump and Adolf Hitler and

(29:27):
Nixon, they're pretty upfrontabout their horribleness, you
know.
So uh it's not uh it's notsomething that they're hiding
from, you know, whereas I thinka lot of people do hide from
their horribleness becausethey're you know, yeah, it's
it's part of what drives them,but it's not necessarily
something they want to have outin the open.

SPEAKER_01 (29:45):
Okay, last question.
Sorry.
Wait, wait.
We don't have to worry aboutBarry because he's like a Boy
Scout.
So we're good to go on that one.
But anyway, sorry to interrupt.

SPEAKER_03 (29:54):
Somehow I don't trust that.
I don't I'm not getting BoyScout vibe from Barry.
I'm sorry.
I know we're not therepersonally, but just make
getting boy scouting vibe.
Okay.
How about we'll wrap up?
This is the the one question Ilike to wrap up with is your
favorite memory from childhood.

(30:15):
Do you have and that's hardsometimes too, right?
But do you have a favoritememory?
And I think of those things thatwe get reminded of periodically
and it just brings us back.
It's such a strong and you knowpart of who we are that you just
you come back to and go, it'smakes you smile or it makes you
go, yeah, that was really it washard at the time, but that was

(30:35):
really important.
I'm glad that happened to me.
So what would you say?
Barry?

SPEAKER_00 (30:42):
Well, for me, it's when I was very young, 10, 10,
11, 12, um, my my father andanother guy had a f had a a
flying school, and I would flywith my dad, um, and just in in
little Cessnas.
And um, that's just a memorythat um that's just always been

(31:05):
a good memory.
I just flying, you know, aroundthe area, or he would sometimes
fly me to see friends in otherprovinces.
Um, so yeah, that was always uhthat's always a really good
childhood memory for me.

SPEAKER_03 (31:20):
What a neat thing, too, to share about your dad to
have up in the sky, you know,and to be traveling to what I
mean.
I I've only been in small planesI've got a couple of times, and
it it is a it's like being on amotorcycle, kind of, you know,
you're just you're so muchinvolved, you know, that yeah,
than the jet or whatever.
So all right, Mayor, here yougo.

SPEAKER_01 (31:41):
Well, the the the part that Barry neglected to say
was then he would jump out ofthe airplane with a parachute
and it's long gun.

SPEAKER_03 (31:49):
But yeah, I did I talked about that.

SPEAKER_01 (31:51):
Didn't I say something about parachutist?
You know, yeah.
Um, you know, it's an odd onefor me.
My father had died when I wasrelatively young.
And uh at that time I was livingin the Bay Area in uh Palo Alto,
actually, near StanfordUniversity.
And uh I'd go play soccer everyday.
I just remember one day,particularly thinking about my

(32:12):
father, and because I loved himvery much, and I was lying on
the grass.
We're you know, probably gonnaplay soccer in 30 minutes or
something, and they had mowedthe lawn and it smelled
beautifully, and I had wonderfulmemories of my father.
And I looked up in the sky andit was sunny, a few clouds, it
was just a beautiful day, andthat stuck with me forever.
So there we both have daddyissues.

SPEAKER_03 (32:34):
Was uh simple, but it you know, isn't that
interesting too?
The things that we're oftentimeshave fondest memories of were
just simple moments, you know.
It wasn't wasn't anything, youknow, yeah, we were at blah,
blah, blah.
It's just it was us time, andthat that bonding is always a
part of it, too.
Um I have a lot of favoritememories of my dad too.

(32:55):
So, gentlemen, how how did youcome to write this book
together?
I mean, that we okay.
Barry has nothing to say tothat.

SPEAKER_00 (33:02):
So this is me, or I'm gonna take a nap.

SPEAKER_01 (33:04):
Okay.
Get a drink, Barry.
Um, okay, so you know, um, Iworked in Hollywood a little
bit, and in between I wouldwrite books because I worked on
Blackhawk Down as a researcherfor Ranger stuff because I was a
Ranger, did a lot of Rangerresearch, and then they didn't
take me to Morocco for theactual production, so I was kind

(33:24):
of annoyed.
Uh and I reached out and starteduh to a publisher and I started
to write books.
So I'd finished a book on NavySEALs, I don't know, 2008-9.
And one of the one of the SEALshad mentioned this sniper guy,
Canadian dude, uh inAfghanistan.
That was Gordon Cullen, who isone of our co-authors.
So I reached out to Gordonwanting to do some kind of book,

(33:45):
maybe international or Canadiansnipers.
And it just took forever, youknow.
This was around 2010, I think itwas.
And you know, I've been busytrying to make it in Hollywood,
busy writing other books, thingslike that, moving a bunch of
times.
And and uh so Gordon was veryenthusiastic.
The Canadian military gave us,uh gave me a uh thumbs up, and I

(34:08):
went and called it embedded, butit's not quite true.
But two weeks with uh sniperprogram at Garrison Petawawa,
and uh and I recognizedimmediately that there's no way
in hell I can write this book.
Just no way.
I just I lack this skill.
I mean, no matter how much quoteunquote elite force background I

(34:28):
have, sniping is a wholedifferent thing.
So I thought to myself, well, Ican't write this book.
And it's disappointing becauseI've been talking to all these
people, I'm starting tointerview people.
So I asked, and I met Barry, uhand uh and I sort of sort of
just thought, well, maybe theycould write some of these
chapters.
And Barry was very good aboutit.

(34:49):
Gordon was excellent about it.
I mean, these two guys werephenomenal.
They they wrote the bulk of thebook, and it is simply because I
didn't feel qualified enough,and I thought the story of
Canadian snipers is certainlyworthy, and in my opinion,
better than I don't want tothrow too much shade here, but
certainly better than most booksthat American Americans have

(35:10):
authored on American snipers,where it's always look how great
I am, look at this mission.
I I've killed so many people,rightly or wrongly.
But the Canadians that I met,Barry and Gordon for one and
many others, were probably someof the most exceptional
non-commissioned officers I'veever met in my life.
And I knew guys who are inDelta, Rangers, SEALs, you know,

(35:30):
Special Forces.
So high, high esteem.
I hold them in very high esteem,and and they agreed to write
this book.
Pretty much they did the work.
I wrote a couple chapters.
So that that's kind of how itstarted.

SPEAKER_02 (35:43):
Okay.

SPEAKER_01 (35:43):
And we finally finished it 15 years later.

SPEAKER_03 (35:46):
Yes.
So, Barry, what drew you towrite it?
I I I would think I have wayless experience and legitimacy,
but it's always struck me that asniper sees wars in a different
way.
Um, you know, because the directimpact that you're having, I

(36:08):
mean, you're you're usually in asniper position to prevent a lot
of stuff from happening.
It's not, you know, necessarilydirect combat in the way we
think of combat, you know,groups of people rushing at each
other.
Uh a sniper is much moresurgical, um, from from what I
understand of it.
Um so why why did you want to uhexplore that?

(36:29):
I mean, I would think in a lotof cases that might be really
difficult to explore.

SPEAKER_00 (36:35):
I think uh a big part of it was after you know
meeting Mir and understandingwhat he wanted to do, like what
he how he wanted to make theproject, how he wanted to make
the book, and then how it justkind of evolved into really
three of us um telling ourstories, is we we and including

(36:57):
Mir is we got to control thenarrative.
And it's like Mir said, this isthis this is about so much more
than uh you know the Hollywood'sthought of the sniper taking
this shot.
You know, we talk about thetraining, we talk about um you
know the hardships, the physicalattributes, the mental

(37:17):
attributes, and and and we'renot glorifying war, we're not
glorifying killing, we're justtelling our stories.
And and I think you know, thebook's been out for for over a
month now, and and the reviewswe've been getting and the
feedback, feedback we've beengetting have been have been

(37:38):
phenomenal.
And you know, further yourquestion, um I really enjoyed
the process of writing.
Um, it started with one chapter.
Mir said, Well, why don't youwrite one chapter?
So I wrote one chapter, and uhMir's been an amazing mentor,
um, and he certainly has made mea better writer.

(38:01):
And you know, one turned intotwo, turned into three, turned
into four, and then you know, wewe have a book.

SPEAKER_03 (38:08):
Well, Mr.
Collins, I forget his firstname.
He's the other Gordon Gordon.
Okay, yeah, Gordon Collins.

SPEAKER_00 (38:14):
He's and then there's one sorry, Ro, there's
one other chapter by another uhmember of our team, uh Yid
Bedard.
He also has a chapter uh in thebook as well.

SPEAKER_03 (38:25):
Okay.
Is there a common uh I I I meanthat obviously the work is
similar, but uh do you thinkthere's a common thread in the
fabric of snipers that uh youyou know you kind of have to
have in order to do that?

SPEAKER_00 (38:43):
To do to do the job?

SPEAKER_03 (38:44):
Yeah, to do the job.

SPEAKER_00 (38:47):
I mean, amongst Canadian snipers, absolutely
there is.

SPEAKER_02 (38:51):
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (38:51):
Um and I think that that common that that for for
me, for the guys that I've met,um the it's just we're we're
dedicated and uh we're we'rewe're professional.

SPEAKER_02 (39:05):
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (39:06):
And we take the we take the job and we take the
responsibility very, veryseriously.
And within we're within aninfantry battalion and uh and
you know, we're infantrysoldiers first and foremost, and
then we've sort of specializedinto becoming snipers.
Um so we just we just take thatrole, we take the responsibility

(39:30):
that that role has, and and weare just extremely proud to do
that job.

SPEAKER_03 (39:40):
It strikes me that there's a a gravitas for lack of
a better word, not to be, youknow, I ain't having a big word.
Um, but there's a gravitas anduh an understanding of the
profundity of what you're beingasked to do.
I mean, in my brain, what makesa sniper's role very different
is in you know, chance standardcombat, you're you generally

(40:02):
fairly far away from the peoplethat you're attacking and
fighting against.
I mean, it is not that thereisn't hand-to-hand comment or
whatnot, but a sniper is muchmore like watching and carefully
studying, and then as said kindof a surgical send it, right?
And it's done.
You know, you you you don't uhand to understand that that you

(40:23):
know, that one moment, uh, youknow, what half a second, that a
lot of lives change when that inthat half a second, right?
Because it's not just the personthat you know you're you're
taking out and have to.
Um, so that understanding that Ithink it it does seem to me more
Canadian than American, wherewe're like, I got 60 guys, yeah,

(40:46):
yeah, yeah.
You know, and I don't mean tobelittle it, but it is much more
of a uh, you know, what do youcall it?
The you know, the got the we wetend to do a lot more of being
uh kind of out there with ourarrogance and our our sense of
you know we're the best.
And like, you know what?
That's not a good way to winfriends and influence people.

SPEAKER_01 (41:07):
So uh let me throw something out there real quick,
and then I'm gonna throw aquestion out at Barry.
You know, though the one thing Ilearned uh just meeting some of
these guys, especially, ofcourse, the the the snipers, uh,
is they have really preciserules of engagement.
They don't just willy-nillyshoot anybody that may or may

(41:29):
not, whatever.
There are rules of engagementbefore they take a shot or
whatever, before they call inairstrikes in general terms.
That's one thing.
But the other thing that I thinka lot of people don't understand
is the extreme danger that asmall sniper team is exposed to.
Let's say they manage to get,and and Barry can talk about
this and should actually aboutgetting to position, taking your

(41:50):
shot, and then being exposed topotential enemy counterattacks.
So I don't know.
Barry, you should talk aboutthat.

SPEAKER_00 (41:58):
Yeah, and certainly, and we've really I think we've
tried to highlight that uh inthe book to the readers too, is
that there's much more than justthat sniper taking that shot.
And we would generally operatein in small, uh small teams,
two, four, six.
Uh, we do a lot of ourinsertions at night.

(42:19):
And you know, for us to get tothe location that we've say
picked from a map where we'regoing to say set up a position
which could be to fire, whichcould be to direct artillery or
aircraft, which could just be toobserve, you know, we have to we
have to get there, we have towalk there.
So there's that inherent danger.
Then we get into position, and alot of times the you know, the

(42:44):
position we're in is is anexposed position.
And we are susceptible to andhave been, you know, uh had
rounds crack over our headsmultiple times when we're laying
there, and we have to we can'tmove because what we're doing,
we may be doing overwatch for apatrol, and it's sort of well,

(43:08):
this is the way the game isplayed, they shoot at us and we
shoot at them.
So, you know, a lot of times wewe we're exposed to that, and
then okay, well, once maybewe've made our engagement or or
we've gathered the intelligencewe need, well, now we need to
leave.
And now they know we're there.
So there's a there's thatvulnerability now that I'm

(43:31):
coming, I have to walk back towhere I started from, and now
maybe it's daylight.
Now they know I'm there.
What's what's up ahead?
What's next?
So, you know, it's justmultifaceted from from start to
go.
Yeah, from start to start tofinish.

SPEAKER_03 (43:46):
They're sending people out to look for you,
actively look for you, right?
So that's gotta be a uh I meanjust an overriding.
How am I gonna not be found?

SPEAKER_00 (43:56):
Um they would and and kids a lot of time they
would in Afghanistanparticularly, they would send a
kid out, and you would justwatch a kid come walking out and
he would just start looking,would just start looking for
you.
And you know he's going back totell someone who who doesn't
like us, you know, what he saw.

SPEAKER_03 (44:19):
So what how do you deal with that mentally?
I mean, uh there's gotta be, youknow, just if there's an
emotional construct there,obviously, but the mental
anguish and the mentaldiscipline that that takes
strikes me as being uh almostinhuman, you know, like it's
it's part of it's part of thejob, it's part of the

(44:39):
environment that we're in.

SPEAKER_00 (44:42):
And we we plan for these, we have contingencies for
these.
We we're always you know, wealways whenever we're out and
we're in a position or we'removing, we're always thinking,
okay, what if we get uh contactfrom the left, from the right,
from the rear or the front?
What if this, what if this?
So we we we have uh we're alwaysthinking, we're always uh

(45:07):
assessing, and we you just we'rewaiting to react.
And uh I I think uh with thatwith the training, and I think a
big part is the sniper trainingitself, just the the mental
aspect of it, how mentally toughit is, it you don't think of it
at the time, but it's it'spreparing you and it's helping

(45:28):
you for when you get into thosestressful situations, you know,
in combat.

SPEAKER_03 (45:33):
What was the you think there was a a toughest
thing?
Was there a a a uh a hurdle thatyou had to get over that you
look back and think that was thecrucible moment?

SPEAKER_00 (45:45):
Yeah, the hurdle from and I did I did sort of
three tours that were not reallycombat focused, and then in 2006
into Kandahar, and the hurdlewas just to accept that you
might die.
And and once you kind of maybenot accept it but come to terms

(46:08):
with it, and you do that, youhave to do that.
I had to do that very quickly,and then you know, then you get
on with your job.

SPEAKER_03 (46:19):
Boy, not not something that most people ever
have to deal with.
I mean, I'm getting older andthinking, you know, yeah, it's
coming, right?
It's it's coming.
Um, but it's not like that, andanywhere near like that.
Umir, how about what what arewhat have you seen?
What's the thing that stood outthe most?
I think you've alluded to someof it, but as you've been

(46:41):
studying Barry and and andlearning to appreciate the role
of the sniper playing.

SPEAKER_01 (46:47):
Yeah, I I am better looking than Barry, so I've
learned that immediately.
But uh no, in all seriousness,oh Lord.
You know, I've always had agreat uh great affinity or
affection for the grunt for theinfantryman, be that an ancient
Roman legionnaire or you know,someone like Barry, but the
infantry, I think that job, thatcombat arms job as an infantry

(47:10):
man or woman, is probably thehardest thing in the world.
People don't appreciate all thestuff you have to learn.
And you know, having gonethrough certain selection
courses, being in an in a sortof elite American unit, you
understand standards, youunderstand a certain mindset,
you are you are trained to adegree to accept that your job

(47:31):
is to go in harm's way, to killor be killed.
And the thing I really learnedwith uh with from people like
Barry and Gordon is that theyhad a huge background in basic
infantry training and jobs thatthey held as infantrymen before
many of them even becamesnipers.
So, really becoming a sniper islike the the tip of the spear of

(47:54):
you know being a great infantrysoldier, really on infanterie,
whatever it's called.
I think Canadians have a bizarreterm for an infantryman, you
know, probably some French term,but um just the the
exceptionalism of uh of thesnipers because they put a lot
of pressure on themselves.
You you've already provenyourself, you've gone through
various courses, basic,whatever, martyrman, uh

(48:16):
reconnaissance, you know,whatever.
You've done all this, you'vealready challenged yourself.
And then when you when you talkto Barry, you talk to Gordon,
you talk to other guys, you readtheir chapters, you go through
their chapters, you reallydiscover the the internal drive
to be the best or to overcomethese hurdles that are thrown in
your way.
And when you read Barry'sstalking chapter, which I think

(48:38):
is one of the greatest chapterswritten on sniping, and you're
like, this is really hard.
And you're putting so muchpressure on yourself, it's not
even the the the trainers thatdo this, it's it comes from
within.
And I think that separates a lotof people.
Do you have that in you to putup with all of this, to
challenge yourself to thehighest degree, to the highest

(49:01):
standard?
And can you push through it andcan you make it?
Sometimes there's luck.
You know, you can't dismissluck.
Sometimes you're the greatest atyour job, but you're unlucky on
that day and you don't make it.
But it's that internal thing,the pressure you put on
yourself.
I think that's what separatessnipers, I think, from most
infantry guys and women.

SPEAKER_03 (49:22):
So is there a um I've been trying to think of how
to ask this question.
And I'm thinking in theaterterms, there's there are roles
that we are asked to play, youknow, throughout our life, you
know, in the role of a father,the role of a husband, um, the
role of a you know, an honorableperson.
Um, is there a role that snipersare asked to play that is, you

(49:46):
know, on one side a role that'suh you think of I'm I'm proud of
that role that I get to play?
I'm I'm humbled by this rolethat I get to play in this
thing, you know, called war andconflict and you know, the the
right versus the not right, youknow, that it a lot of war
becomes.
Um that's how at least we wetend to think of it.

(50:08):
You know, there's a good sideand there's a bad side, right?
Um, and is there a role that isreally hard to play?
That you know, you you recognizethat it's part of the job, you
know, it is it's something thatyou need to, you know, kind of
uh reconcile yourself to, andyet it doesn't change the fact
that it is a difficult role.

SPEAKER_00 (50:32):
I think it's just when I when I think of an answer
to that question, it's it's morefrom a soldier's perspective.
And I think the hardest role toplay is is when you have to deal
with loss.
And you have to deal withhonestly, just when you have to
deal with loss.

(50:53):
I don't think it matters if whatposition you hold, if you you
know, you're in combat and andyou're dealing with with
friendly loss.
I think that is you know, thatis always one of the that's the
hardest.
That has always been the hardestfor me to deal with.

SPEAKER_03 (51:11):
Yeah, I would think.
I mean, these are guys thatyou've trained with or that you
know you've been friends with.
And what Band of Brothers iskind of a good example of that,
right?
These guys that just have todeal with these ongoing losses
and you know, yeah.
Yeah.
I don't know how you would everI mean that that strikes me as
those are lifelong wounds too.
Um that but you know, we honorthose folks by just remembering

(51:35):
how much of an impact they madein their lives.
What about the role that you youwould enjoy the most or are
proudest of?

SPEAKER_00 (51:46):
I mean, as a sniper, I think we we would get we would
have a lot of responsibility umbecause a lot of times we might
be the we might be the firstgroup to deploy on an operation.
We might be the first guys to goout and and get eyes on.

(52:08):
And then we have that addedresponsibility a lot of times as
if those other friendly forcesare coming into the areas, we're
watching them, we're protectingthem, and we need to make sure
we're doing everything we can doto allow them to move safely to
where they need to go.

SPEAKER_03 (52:30):
Yeah, you really are the centuries of that in in many
ways, right?
The or sheepdogs.
Yeah, yeah, the canary, right?
So what Mir, what what uh isthere something that yet as
someone that's written aboutthis, is there something that um
uh you know, I we've talkedabout a certain writer that

(52:52):
wrote a whole bunch of World WarII books, and part of what made
him popular was kind of a hypethat he generated, you know, uh
uh, you know, it became chic toknow more about, you know, World
War II in some ways.
Is there something that youthink we need to educate
ourselves more about to avoidhype and instead see the

(53:13):
profundity of what a soldier isasked to do, and in particular a
sniper is asked to do?

SPEAKER_01 (53:19):
Yeah, we need to all move to Canada.
So that would be the firstthing, because they're they're
not as militarized as we are inthe United States.
But uh, you know, I I I I wantto add a couple things here, but
and I'll get to your questionalso.
I know we're running out oftime, but you know, I've been
very fortunate that I managed toget into a good unit, but my

(53:40):
military service was cut shortbecause of some injuries and all
that.
Um so I never was in theposition that Barry or Gordon or
others have been in, or a lot ofour guys down in the US, right?
So I've never had had to go tocombat, which is a good thing.
And we're not talking aboutcivilian things here now.
That's a whole different ball ofwax here.

(54:01):
But uh so I think ultimately thewe're talking about history
preserving things like that.
I think the most uh honest thingany writer can do, be that
Barry, any you perhaps, even ina play, whatever it is, is to be
honest.
You know, war isn't, I don'tthink, and from all my

(54:23):
experience, you know, I've I'veinterviewed hundreds from World
War II through modern.
You know, uh you get all kinds,and you gotta remember who says
what, why, and who they'resaying certain things.
I think the key thing always isto be honest, to remind people,
yeah.
Barry and his team out hisdetachment out there doing

(54:44):
Overwatch, protecting otherinfantry guys going doing their
job.
And the other thing we got toremember is let's be honest
about that.
Not everything is gonna besuccessful, not everything is
glorious.
And we should also never confusesoldiers with the politicians
who send them in the firstplace, right?
I mean, the soldier isprofessional uh because we're

(55:05):
all volunteer uh volunteers inthe military, nobody is drafted.
So you sort of should have anunderstanding of what you're
getting into.
You probably don't until you'reactually there doing it.
But I think the disservice, thedisservice are things like the
greatest generation, uh, youknow, waving the flag, the the
overt patriotism.

(55:26):
I'm not against some of it, youknow.
I'm I mean, I remember Barrysaying, you know, he's buried
friends under the Canadian flag.
So I understand the validity ofthat argument, but uh ultimately
I think we need to be honest andwe need to accept the fact that
probably 95% of all thecampaigns, the wars, whatever
you want to call them, arereally not necessary.

(55:47):
And I think there are politicalforces in play, and they're
never the ones who have toactually do anything, right?
They collect their money, theymake the decision, Barry does
his job, and then he comes homeand deals with it for better or
for worse.
Usually in Barry's case, he's agreat guy, so is Gordon.
So, but you know, not everybodycan come out of that.

(56:09):
Um it depends how you're raised,and it depends what society
does, right?
If you are heavily militarized,then you know, the guy in
uniform who is, you know,delivers you logistics is a
hero.
And quite frankly, I find that abit offensive because you're
not, you're just a worker in alarge corporation, the genuine

(56:29):
people who risk life and takelife.
I think we should look at themnot in awe, but we should be
appreciative that they are doingthe things that most of us
wouldn't do.
They are probably less than 1%of all people in the military.
Barry is the one percenter, andprobably less than that, of
actual people fighting in wars.

(56:51):
So, and I'm not talking aboutpeople sitting at a base and an
occasional mortar attack, I'mtalking about people who go on a
hill, who expose themselves toenemy fire, who shoot, take
lives, lose their friends,whatever.
You know, that's something weshould always honor in the
traditional sense of writingabout it and making sure we
preserve the history.

(57:11):
Because if if Barry and Gordondidn't want to write this book,
sure, there are some Canadiansniper books out there, but
they're memoirs usually, orthey're maybe not as accurate as
I think they should be.
So I think as historians, assoldiers, you should on occasion
write your own stuff to preservethe preserve it for for history.

(57:32):
So 50 years from now, some guycan come back or a woman look at
it and say, Ah, these were theexperiences.
Ah, I did not know this, I didnot know that.
Because we always think, youknow, Hollywood, this because
that's what we're exposed tomost of the time.
So or or authors who are lookingat making a buck instead of
preserving proper history.
That's also an issue.

(57:52):
Anyway, I'm rambling.

SPEAKER_03 (57:53):
Okay, no, so you are so it's there's a lot packed
into that.
So I ramble a lot too, just askmy wife.
Yeah, so yeah, yeah.
Um it's but you're into you'reinto drama, so we understand
that.
Well, yeah, I mean, you gottaremember that.
So um there's uh yeah, and I Ikeep thinking about the the
whole MAGA movement, you know,make America great again.

(58:16):
And I I think that to me, that'soffensive.
That not only offensive becauseof the arrogance of it, but the
disrespect.
Because I I always want to say,wait a minute, wait, wait a
minute.
When when did America stop beinggreat?
When did all of these people andtheir sacrifices and all of the
things that we've tried to do,the best of us, right, have

(58:37):
tried to do for people in need.
I mean, Haiti would get, youknow, destroyed by a hurricane,
and we were the first ones thereoftentimes.
You know, we were, we got thereand did things to help as
quickly as possible.
Um, and Canadians do as well.
I mean, there's this fabric ofpeople that just get in and do
the right thing.
And and that there should berespect for what that takes and

(58:59):
who those people are.
And we don't, they don't wantaccolades.
That's the thing that's mostrespectful of it is most of the
people that are doing that don'twant accolades.
They don't want people to go,oh, you're so wonderful.
They want people to just respectand listen to what they have to
say about their lives, theirstories.

SPEAKER_01 (59:17):
Um Yeah, I have to say in Canada, this is a
particular problem.
Well, I shouldn't say problem,but it's not as militarized.

SPEAKER_02 (59:24):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (59:24):
At the same time, people like Barry and Gordon and
others, and like I said, thesniper book is really about all
snipers across Canada.
It's not just about the RoyalCanadian Regiment.
It should be reflective of theexperience of Canada's snipers
in Afghanistan.
But there should at least be anacknowledgement, you know.
I mean, the soldiers aren'tthere saying, oh, you know, we

(59:47):
have to go and invade whatevercountry.
I mean, these are politicaldecisions.
And you do go do your jobbecause you signed up.
It's as simple as that.
And sometimes, from myexperience, you know, you want
to go to war because you've beentraining all your Life.
Well, you've trained some timeand you want to know if you can
do it or not.
But it's also a foolish youththought, you know.

(01:00:08):
I think as you get older, youreflect a little bit more on
things, and you're like, ah, I'mvery happy I didn't have to do
it.
At the same time, Barry has agreat really made a great
comment to me long time ago.
It always sticks with me.
It's about Afghanistan didn'tref uh define me, it refined me
as a as a person.
And he's a very reflective,smart young guy.

(01:00:32):
You know, he's only 65, I think,at this point.
So, but but as as I what I'mbasically saying is we should be
appreciative of the people whodo the the dirty work, if we
want to call it dirty, to do thethe hard grit that others are
comfortable sending sendingyounger guys to go do, or women,
of course.

SPEAKER_03 (01:00:50):
So yeah, yeah, I I just think some of them they
just they really do need to workat McDonald's or something, you
know, to just get more in touchwith what normal people deal
with on a daily basis, you know.
Yeah, true.
Yeah, it's uh it's not life ishard, yeah.
It's not easy being green, youknow, current figures.
It is not so gentlemen.
I you know, time is out, and Iuh I I warned you, I warned you

(01:01:13):
ahead of time.
I was all hyped up and I didn'tknow how I was ever gonna keep
this to an hour, but I do hopewe can uh and we'll find some
time in the future to continuethe conversation.
Um, and definitely you'd wantto.
I mean, that that's yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:29):
Next next time you should just have Barry, then you
won't have some guy insane guyrambling all day long.
Oh, I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 (01:01:35):
We wouldn't have anyone to make fun of then.
I don't know.
That's true.
You know, because Barry justsits there and yeah, Barry sits
there and takes it, and I cansee in his eyes he's just going,
okay, wait, wait, wait.
Yeah, next time I see me.

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:47):
I'll get I'll get my payback.
Yeah, I'll just knock his caneout from under him.

SPEAKER_03 (01:01:52):
Yeah, exactly.
Uh you have to deal with eachother a lot more than I do.
I'm sure you've got your thing.
True.
So yeah, but thank you for it.
But it's been great.
So it's really been great.
So our our guest today have beenBarry Nisbet, uh, who is a
former Canadian sniper.
Uh, if you would want to read afun book, if you want to read a

(01:02:12):
fascinating book, please get acopy of Send It.
Uh, it's a Canadian sniper'sstory.
There's a whole bunch ofCanadian sniper stories uh about
the memoirs of actually being inthe role of a sniper and what
what the challenges are, themental psychological challenges
and physical challenges.
Um, just if you like you knowthe grit of what it is to

(01:02:34):
actually go out and do the jobthat politicians call them to
do, uh, it's a great book.
And uh Mir, Ba Baha Daha.
So good enough for Ba Manyar.
So Mir Ba Ba Manyar is uh was aco-author of this book.
Uh and uh and is uh has his own.

(01:02:55):
What do you have 12 books thatyou've written, Mir?
Is that uh the the latest beingthe Houdini Club?
Is that well, actually thelatest is the first one?

SPEAKER_01 (01:03:01):
Well, the latest is Sended, which I'm very proud of,
actually.
I really love Sended.
It came together better than Ihad thought.

SPEAKER_03 (01:03:09):
Well, and I'm gonna say just from little what little
I've read about it, if you likedAmbrose's books, you're gonna
love Mir's books because Mir isactually dealing with it with
the real guys telling the realstories and the the real
situations.
There's no Hollywood fluff, inspite of his Holloway Hollywood
background, is managed to avoidthat.

(01:03:30):
Uh, and it is for someone that'sa World War II affectionato,
like I am.
I can tell already it makes agood read from just the few
chapters that I was able toread.
So, gentlemen, it's been anhonor, honestly.
Uh, my pleasure, my honor ummeeting you both and getting to
talk with you.
Um, I I I want to meet you andtalk with you again for selfish

(01:03:51):
reasons, completely selfishreasons, because I want to get
to know you better if I can.
So thank you much.
So thank you.
Been listening to your profilesand leadership, frame of
reference.
We are and continue to be themost fascinating podcast out
there.
So please tune in again for nextweek's guest as well.
Take care, gentlemen.

(01:04:12):
Thank you.
Thank you.

unknown (01:04:14):
And