Healing before evangelizing: a new path for the Church

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What if the most faithful thing we can do is slow down, listen, and heal before we preach? That’s the challenge and invitation at the heart of our conversation with Cathy Lins, director of Gather My Lost Sheep, whose work equips parishes and dioceses to respond wisely to trauma and help priests flourish. We talk candidly about why people in crisis often come to the Church first, how well-meaning responses can backfire, and what it takes to become a reliable place of safety rather than another source of harm.

Cathy shares practical frameworks that shift ministry from theory to practice. We unpack the “eight critical shifts” for leading trauma-informed parishes, a Good Samaritan five-step response model, and a Flourishing Shepherds approach designed for clergy wellbeing. We also explore the mental health continuum—green to red—as a simple daily dashboard for sleep, diet, prayer, connection, and stress, helping leaders catch warning signs early. From supervision and debriefing to WRAP-style plans, we outline systems that normalize support, reduce burnout, and strengthen accountability without shame.

Along the way, we confront stigma, speak to the cost of silence, and acknowledge the reality of secondary trauma for anyone who carries others’ stories. The vision is both humbling and hopeful: laity and clergy as one body, tending each other; evangelization that moves at the speed of trust; and a Church that starts with presence, builds safety, and invites healing that turns wounds into witness. If you care about pastoral care, mental health first aid, safeguarding, or rebuilding credibility through transparency, this one matters.

If this resonates, share it with someone who serves, subscribe for more conversations like this, and leave a review with one insight you’re taking back to your community.

Thanks for listening. Please check out our website at www.forsauk.com to hear great conversations on topics that need to be talked about. In these times of intense polarization we all need to find time to expand our Frame of Reference.

Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_01 (00:03):
Welcome to Frame of Reference, informed intelligent
conversations about the issuesand challenges facing everyone
in today's world.
In-depth interviews to help youexpand and inform your frame of
reference.
Now here's your host, RaulLabresh.

SPEAKER_00 (00:19):
Well, welcome to another adventure in uh
interviewing excellence.
So that's what I'm gonna call ittoday.
Um welcome to frame of referenceand profiles and leadership.
Uh if you have listened to thispodcast before, and I I trust
you have, otherwise, you maybewouldn't be here right now.
But uh we uh have a long historyof talking with people all over

(00:44):
the spectrum and uh about allkinds of knowledge and
activities and events all overthe spectrum.
And today um I've got a guestthat's with me.
She has been here multiple timesbefore.
And uh, whenever we have aconversation, it's always
something uh enlightening andfrankly something difficult to

(01:04):
talk about.
Um uh Kathy Linz is here, andKathy is a woman that has
dedicated a good chunk of herlife in developing systems that
help to both educate uh priests,leadership within the Catholic
Church, and also focus ongetting people to a healthy
state where they can evangelizemore effectively.
Um and so she is the uh what wewhat would we call you, Kathy?

SPEAKER_02 (01:28):
You're the I'm the director of Gather My Lost
Sheep.

SPEAKER_00 (01:31):
Okay.
That's even simpler, right?
That which gather Gather My LostSheep has been a ministry now
for how many years?

SPEAKER_02 (01:37):
Since 2019.

SPEAKER_00 (01:38):
2019.
That's right, because we we gotinto COVID and that was right
before that was launching.
So tell me a little tell peoplea little bit about Gather My
Sheep and what sorts of thingsyou do and uh all of that good
stuff.

SPEAKER_02 (01:50):
Aaron Ross Powell We got into this whole thing
because I had the experience ofgoing to a mental health
conference, okay, tellingpeople, you know what?
Research shows that people tendto turn to churches first, even
before therapists, to have 90people tell me, you're spot on.
That's exactly what we did.
And let me tell you how yourJesus people treated us.

(02:12):
And I was like, Ru-Raw.
This was not what I was hopingfor.

SPEAKER_03 (02:17):
No, not at all.

SPEAKER_02 (02:18):
And you know, I there was a couple of things
that happened.
One, there were people who feltheard and seen for the first
time in a long time.

SPEAKER_03 (02:26):
Sure.

SPEAKER_02 (02:26):
And people said to me afterwards, you brought a
whole bunch of people healing.
The other side of that was myconversation with God on the way
home, going, that was painful.
Wasn't really quite what I wasthinking.
And the Lord going, gather mylost sheep.
I'm calling you to changethings.
This can't continue like this.

(02:47):
This is not okay.

SPEAKER_00 (02:48):
Sure.
Well, and isn't that uh I meanthe Catholic Church is um is
interesting to me because theirum I don't call warts.
Their warts have been morevisible than most religious
organizations have been.
Um, you know, there's been moreuh you know publicized
publicizing, I guess I I wouldcall.

SPEAKER_02 (03:07):
Um They've caught a lot more of the attention in a
lot of ways.

SPEAKER_00 (03:11):
Yeah, well, and uh, you know, part of that is the
establishment of the church.
It's been around for hundredsand thousands of years, so it
was a a bigger giant to topple.
So I, you know, of course, allthe Liliputians gather on top of
that sort of thing and make makethe most out of it while they
can.
Um, but it's also the CatholicChurch has been um very
vulnerable about and very, Ithink to especially in recent

(03:33):
years, been very transparentabout no longer just denying it
and trying to sweep it under thecarpet, which had been part of
the the philosophy, but now havereally come to grips with it in
a mature way to say, no, we knowwe have problems, we know that
there's been trauma generated bysome um, you know, perhaps
well-meaning priests, but youknow, that were traumatized
themselves and did some badthings.

(03:55):
Um, but we want to recover fromthat.
We we are working to make itbetter.
Um, so help us, help us make itbetter, right?

SPEAKER_02 (04:04):
Looking for that opportunity to do so.
Yeah.
And I'll be honest, I've grown alot in this journey because
there's things that I knew frommy own personal experience, from
talking with people, from a lotof reading, and then there's
things that you figure out alongthe way.
Because I at first was reallyfocused on we need to help local
folks to figure out like how wecan do this.

SPEAKER_01 (04:24):
Sure.

SPEAKER_02 (04:25):
And then how do I help the clergy so that they can
help more?
Only to realize how many membersof the clergy have their own
unresolved trauma, sure, havetheir own vicarious or secondary
trauma because of the thingsthat they hear.
I mean, they hear all of ourstuff.

SPEAKER_00 (04:42):
And then they have to deal with, oh my God, this is
walking around, and I'm expectedto do something about it.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (04:48):
I I had a priest say to me, Kathy, you know, he said,
I I realized my life was a kindof idyllic before I became a
priest.
Now he's like, I just it neveroccurred to me people had all
that kind of stuff going on intheir lives and were actually
trying to function and go abouttheir way.

SPEAKER_00 (05:03):
Yeah, and what are you supposed to say at that
point?
You know, I'm sorry I've hadenough.

SPEAKER_02 (05:07):
Can we come back to this?
No, that isn't how that works.

SPEAKER_00 (05:10):
Well, you were saying before we started
recording, too, that uh thenumber of people that uh uh
talked about this uh the churchis often the first place people
go to that have beentraumatized, you know, and and
you know, God help us, uh therewas a point in time too where
they would come to the thechurch and be more traumatized,
you know.
So thank God that part is isdone.
Well, we're still working onthat.

SPEAKER_02 (05:30):
That's a process.
I have become certified inmental health first aid.
We actually talked with peopleabout you know how CPR works.
See Mental Health First Aid isthat same way of I'm a first
responder and I can train otherpeople to be first responders.
And people look at me andthey're like, So you can help me
know what to do when someonefrom the community just shows
up?

(05:51):
Because when they just show up,the chances that they're in
crisis is pretty good.

SPEAKER_03 (05:54):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (05:55):
And and they're like, I don't know what to do.
And I've had to have a number ofconversations, not just with the
clergy, but with the parishsecretaries, with others who up
to that point literally said tome, Kathy, I would have just
called the police.
And I said, I just want you toconsider a couple things now
that we've talked about how dowe handle it when someone's
dealing with a crisis.
They're like, that probably didnot help our evangelization.

(06:17):
I thought, you think?
Believe it or not, calling thepolice is probably not gonna
cause them to come back tochurch.
Yeah.
And they're like, I get thatnow.
I didn't get that before.
They interact differently, theyhave a better sense of what
resources are out there.
They know better ways toactually interact.
Sure.
So we're well, do we want moreof that?

(06:39):
Yeah.
We have a lot of churches whostill have never gotten any of
that training, never had thatopportunity to step in it yet.

SPEAKER_00 (06:46):
Well, and we live in a country too, where a lot of
that um is uh, you know, don'tbother me with that.
I don't have, you know, I don'twant to deal with, I got enough
problems of my own.
Um and we're it seems to mewe've gotten to uh an ugly place
of not um uh not recognizing thethe power there is in reaching

(07:10):
out and helping someone.
Instead, it's just like, youknow, you're gonna drain my
resources, or um, you know, I Iwant to pretend that that
doesn't exist.
Or I I don't know.
There's just so much lessempathy, uh, less uh compassion,
less emotional intelligence.
And I don't remember it beinglike that when I was a kid.
I remember people being muchmore willing to step in and help

(07:33):
when they when somebody wasneeding help.
Um that's not to say that wedidn't also have you know issues
with, you know, oh you know, Idon't know about her marrying
that black man.
I don't, I'm not racist, but Iworry about the children.
It's just like, oh yeah, right,okay.
You worry about the children.
Maybe that's legitimate, butit's also your racism is
showing.

SPEAKER_02 (07:53):
So just put just check it in on here.

SPEAKER_00 (07:56):
Yeah, exactly.
So you sit back and think, well,you know, are are we moving the
needle forward at all?
Do you think in the work thatyou're seeing, is it are we
making progress in kind ofopening these Pandora's boxes
and saying, you know what, thatthing's not gonna heal by its
own.
We got to do something about it.
It might require a Lansing, itmight require an antibiotic, it
might require you know, a curewe don't even have right now,

(08:19):
but we're gonna we gotta dealwith it.

SPEAKER_02 (08:20):
So well, what I loved, and there was a speaker
in Bart Schultz, was actuallyin, and he was talking on the
Holy Spirit.
Uh he actually travels thecountry talking on this.
He's also part of the John PaulII Healing Center.

SPEAKER_03 (08:32):
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (08:33):
And one of the things he talked about is he
said, I want you to go back tothe X of the Apostles.

SPEAKER_03 (08:38):
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (08:38):
Look at how people lived and worked with one
another.
They weren't worried about, ohno, I can't spend any more time
with them.
It was the what can I do tosupport?
Because we all are part of thiscommunity, and we support one
another, and we welcome peoplecontinually into the community.

SPEAKER_03 (08:56):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (08:56):
And it was that moment where I watched this and
I heard what he was saying, andI thought, that's what we need
to go for.
And sometimes people have thisidea of, well, I have to have
special skills.
No, you don't.
This is a wild and crazy idea.
Right.
I want you to work on presence.

SPEAKER_00 (09:12):
Listen.

SPEAKER_02 (09:13):
To just be with someone.
You don't even have to sayanything.
Yeah, that listening, that butyou help them know in that
moment you hear them, you seethem, and they are not alone,
and God loves them and he's withthem.

SPEAKER_00 (09:29):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (09:30):
And that is huge.

SPEAKER_00 (09:32):
Well, that that sense of uh another human being
is with me, you know, and uh,you know, people talk about AI
is going to do all thesewonderful things to walk
alongside people and they'llfeel like they have, you know,
companionship.
And it's like, yeah, but there'snothing quite like seeing and
hearing and feeling someone'sgenuine compassion, um, feeling

(09:53):
someone's genuine willingness toput aside their life for a few
moments, you know, and just helpyou listen to comfort you within
your life, right?
Um and it is sometimes just assimple as listening, right?
It is just being there is sopowerful.

(10:13):
And yet we I don't know.
It's just like we're I don'tknow if it's social media that's
walled us all up against oneanother, or if it was COVID and
all of the isolation that wasyou know necessary as a result
of that.
Um, but boy, people just haveseem to be.
I tell you, I notice it withlistening in general, that I I
try to get things across topeople and they just don't seem

(10:36):
to listen.
And I'm like, what the heck iswell, this should not be this
difficult to get you tounderstand what I'm trying to
tell you or trying to get you todo.
Um, and that's gonna make thisprocess even more difficult,
right?
If we can't listen about, yeah,I I think we should do this next
week with that, you know, adthat we're putting out.
If they can't listen with that,how are they ever gonna listen

(10:56):
to, you know, my heart isbreaking because I just had this
situation with my sister andit's just I don't know how to
deal with it.
Well, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I got things to do.
I gotta go sell some stuff.
And so whatever.
Okay, thank you very much.

SPEAKER_02 (11:08):
Well, in some ways, I I want you to just consider
that it's someone's traumabumping into someone else's
trauma.

SPEAKER_03 (11:14):
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (11:15):
And they haven't figured out a way to actually
take a step back and allow theirtheir inner self, that is that
that you know, that heart ofJesus in us to hear because
there's they're too wired abouttheir own.

SPEAKER_03 (11:29):
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (11:29):
And that's that's I think is part of what we're
seeing sometimes.
And it's that I encourage peopleto pause.
And there's a big differencebetween pausing and reacting.
You know, responding means thatI have to stop and I have to
consider is that really theoutcome and the impact I want to

(11:51):
have on this person, on thisinteraction, on this
relationship at this moment.

SPEAKER_00 (11:55):
Sure.
And it's yeah, yeah, we havethat what tendency to fight,
flight, or fawn.
Um so you know, there's thingsthat you react to, and it's just
like, ah, it's not true.
Um, or there's, you know, thingslike, oh, I just don't want to
go there right now.
Um and there's other thingslike, yeah, I suppose that could
be right.
So rather rather than saying,well, tell me more about that,
tell me more.

(12:16):
I I I I don't really understandthat.
I guess I've never been in anexperience like that, but um I
want to understand it better.
Can you help me with that?
Um, just being willing to dothat sometimes is like huge,
huge thing, right?
So, what are you seeing in theleadership with all the work
that you're doing to try to kindof put these pieces together and

(12:36):
kind of connect the dots, if youwill?

SPEAKER_02 (12:39):
I'm having a lot of conversations with bishops.
I have been at differentnational conferences, um,
participating in theInternational Safeguarding
Conference, the NationalCatholic Partnership on
Disability.
Last night, I just completed myfourth year with the Archdiocese
of Vancouver for their reviewboard, talking about like how do

(13:00):
we look at our guidance?
How else do we do the work thatwe do with the priests?
Are there things that we canchange in their training that
helps them have that self-careand have the support of a
greater community?

SPEAKER_03 (13:12):
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (13:13):
So, right now, a lot of that isn't happening.
Part of what we've been puttingtogether, because we started out
with trauma-informed parishes asour first initiative.
We've created flourishingshepherds as our second
initiative.

SPEAKER_03 (13:24):
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (13:24):
And so literally it's a multi um process where
the first phase where we look atit and say, we're going to help
the top leadership of thediocese actually understand what
is trauma, what's its impact,what does that mean, what does
secondary trauma actually looklike?
How do you actually do thingsand apply trauma-informed

(13:45):
practices?
How do we make that actuallycome alive within the parish and
the diocesan setting?
What does that mean for asystem?

SPEAKER_03 (13:54):
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (13:54):
The second phase is looking more of the, okay, so
from a leadership standpoint,this and now you know it's go
time here.
What's the system forsupervision that we're going to
have?
What kind of things foraccountability will we have?
Not because we're looking tobeat people up, but we're
looking to say, how can we helpaccompany them?

SPEAKER_03 (14:14):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (14:14):
How can we help them have a system?
We were talking earlier aboutwith the mental health
continuum.
Canada has done a lot of workwith that with vets.
Okay.
The idea being that if you canlook across the continuum to say
wellness on one side, let's callthat green, and then maybe we're
struggling a bit, that's yellow,a little bit more, that's

(14:35):
orange.
We're dealing with illness now,that's red.
We're moving across thatcontinuum continually.
When you actually start to breakthat down and say, so how are my
daily ate daily eating habits?
Hmm, I ate all crap all today.
I might be in the orange there.
Um, hey, how's my laundry doing?
Hey, how's my housekeepingdoing?
How's my prayer life doing?
How's my all of those things?

(14:57):
If you can start to break downwhat it is that's in your daily
life and start to track tonotice when am I doing well?
When am I in the green zone, andwhen am I not?
What knocked me off schedule?
And then if I'm in the yellowzone, if that's a prime
opportunity to say, can I phonea friend?
Who else can I bring in that'sthat's gonna be a support to me

(15:19):
at that moment, versus orangeand red, where I may need to
actually be get talking to atherapist or someone else.
And ideally, if we're in thered, having a system that
actually allows each priest tohave a what do you know what a
rap is?
The rap is that opportunity tohelp create a document that

(15:40):
says, if I am not mentally wellenough to manage my own affairs,
this is who I want to be incharge, this is how you will
know that someone needs to stepin.
These are the actions I want youto take.
These are the things that willtell you when I'm well enough
again to take management of myown affairs once again.
To actually have that in place.

(16:01):
Because if you follow what'shappening around the country
right now, we have a number ofsuicides that have happened.
And the numbers are not they'renot um better than the general
population.
They're about the same as thegeneral population.
So we've got to realize thatpeople are in trouble.

SPEAKER_00 (16:18):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Is there uh you know, I thinkwe've talked about this before
when we've had conversations,but um what would you say to a
person that's wondering, uh, youknow, is this part of my life?
Am I traumatized and I justdon't even know it?
Am I, you know, are therewarning signals that are that
I'm that I've got orangeflashing all all over the place?

(16:39):
You know when your car goes bad,you at least have an engine, you
know, check light that comes up.
Are there engine checklightsthat you think uh are really
helpful for most people to justbe aware of?

SPEAKER_02 (16:48):
It's been a couple of things.
I've talked to you about likedifferent types of trauma, the
acute traumas, the you know,sexual assaults, the uh and
that's amazing to me how manypeople have come forward and
said, I experienced this, andothers were like, me too.

SPEAKER_03 (17:02):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (17:02):
And I've never told a soul before.

SPEAKER_03 (17:04):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (17:05):
Um it's well, you realize all the different types
of traumas that are out there,but it's also the flashbacks,
the times that you can feel likeyou've shut down the
relationship problems that youhave.
If you actually start to lookthrough the adverse childhood
experiences studies, they willtalk about all the different
implications that it has becauseyou experience things as
children.

(17:26):
So I always look at it as um,you know how there are certain
skills you learn to do to getalong with each other as kids?
Right.
You couldn't learn those thingsbecause you were trying to
survive.

SPEAKER_03 (17:36):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (17:37):
So it's hard to learn how to play well with
others as an adult.
So believe it or not, when youhave those kind of difficulties
in your adult life with yourrelationships, that's usually a
telltale sign to say you've gotsome things going on.

SPEAKER_03 (17:52):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (17:52):
And and the more that we talked about, because I
come from an experience ofliving with some of those
impacts myself.
I've had people come in to someof the workshops that I've been
to and I've sat taught and said,I realize I have unresolved
trauma.
I do those things that you'retalking about.
I act in those particular ways.

(18:13):
And so they're like, it neveroccurred to me before, but now
suddenly it like makes moresense why my life isn't working
the way that I thought.
That's probably the biggestthing that I hear how often is
my life's not working.
And I can't put my finger on whyit's not working.

SPEAKER_00 (18:29):
Do you think that there are people that are
actively engaged in notrealizing it?
I mean, uh, is that a survivalmechanism that keeps us from you
know saying, I I have a problemhere.
And I I wonder if if there isn'tum almost a black hole that if
you've been victimized, that wetend to see everything about our

(18:52):
lives or can see everythingabout our lives as being another
process of victimization.
So, and in that spiral, it seemslike people get to the point
where they just lose thecapacity, the desire, um, the
insight necessary to say, Idon't want to be victimized by
this anymore.

(19:13):
I want to take steps to get outof it.
They're just, it's it's like theknees have been cut out, right?
I mean, they just don't havethat ability to bend anymore or
flex anymore because they'vebeen so wounded by things.
What what how do you get peopleto wake up?
You can do stuff about this,goodness, don't just sit there.

SPEAKER_02 (19:32):
Well, and sometimes it's realizing like, is it
authority issues?
Do you have issues with peoplewith authority?
The other side of this I alwaysthink about is the stigma.
I mean, I think about before Iever went for the first time to
actually talk to a therapist,um, you don't do that.
Crazy people do that.

SPEAKER_00 (19:53):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Right.
What's wrong with you?

SPEAKER_02 (19:56):
Well, and and things that because I have experienced
abuse, my abuser would tellpeople, she's crazy, you can't
believe anything that she says.
So I was like, Well, if Iactually go do that, then I
would be admitting that I reallyam crazy.
You know, who wants to do that?
That would make them right.
And then which just then keepsyou caught in yet another trap.

(20:17):
Right.
And so it becomes the okay, howcan I get past that?
And sometimes you just have tohit rock bottom or your life
just so not working that you'rejust like, I'm desperate to try
anything at this point.

SPEAKER_03 (20:31):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (20:31):
I'm gonna and it's because it's that painful
secret, those secret sorrowsthat we have that we don't tell
anyone about.
People are desperate to findsome place where they can just
have that conversation.
I have found that the more Italk openly about these topics,
the more that people come andtalk to me afterwards to say,

(20:54):
can I share with you something?
And they just want to be heard.

SPEAKER_00 (20:58):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (20:58):
And in that moment, there's a little healing.

SPEAKER_00 (21:01):
Right.
Well, you provide a safe place,right?
Um, because you're not gonnacome at it from a judgmental,
you know, pulpit, if you will,um, but come at it from a
sympathetic, I've been there, Iknow that is a really difficult
thing.
You've got a battle ahead of youif you want to work your way
through this.
Let me share some of the thingsI've learned, which I've always
appreciated, actually, aboutyour your ministries that you're

(21:22):
you're not um, you know, not alot of people are trying to turn
this into you know self-helpbooks and you know, doing book
tours and making all kinds ofmoney.
But you your first and foremostthing has always been helping
people to heal.
Um, and that's a genuine thing,not a uh a marketing ploy.
So for lack of a better, youknow, way and it you know, it's
that'd be nice if some moneycame along with it, so at least

(21:43):
you didn't have to worry, youknow, how am I paying the rent
this month?
Um so, but uh, you know, the thefact that that genuine care and
compassion and empathy forpeople that are hurting, because
you've felt it, you've faced itso deeply yourself, um, it's
really remarkable.
I mean, congratulations on youknow not turning into a mean son
of a gun, you know, because thatwould be really easy to do,

(22:04):
right?
A lot of people do it.
It's uh, you know, a habitformed by many people within our
society and our nation.
So uh uh do you what would yousay to someone that needs the
encouragement to face it and isreally struggling?
I mean, it's just it's so ugly,you know, to think about and and

(22:25):
and try to process that again.
Because we spend years buildingwalls so we don't have to do
that, because it is so painful.
And I mean, if you're you know aseven, eight, nine-year-old kid
and you are sexually abused bysomeone, it it takes years for
just the realization of whathappened to occur, and then to

(22:45):
figure out how that's affectingyou as deeply as it it is and
does, um, it's an easy thing torun from and it's a hard thing
to stop running from.

SPEAKER_02 (22:55):
I'm gonna throw something in here though, just
for something else to kind oflike mix things up.

SPEAKER_00 (23:00):
Okay, good.

SPEAKER_02 (23:00):
Hey back in the day, we didn't talk about it, and
that's why it's something thatremains to be resolved.

SPEAKER_03 (23:08):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (23:09):
What if we actually did deal with it when kids have
those experiences?
Sixty-four percent of adultsexperienced adverse childhood
experiences as kids in the US.

SPEAKER_00 (23:19):
Yeah, that's a lot.
60 percent.
64.
64.
And so it becomes when I'm 64,Ringo Star?
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (23:26):
But I but but that would be a huge shift right
there if we actually were ableto because they wouldn't have to
bury it.

SPEAKER_03 (23:33):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (23:34):
And the other thing that I think is so interesting
is how often people have said tome, can't you just leave it
buried?
That's actually the worst thingthat could happen because as
long as it's not dragged outinto the sun and cleansed and
cleared, it will continue to eatyou alive.
It will continue to causeinflate inflammation, it will

(23:55):
continue to damage your organs,it will continue to do it.

SPEAKER_00 (23:57):
But doesn't that speak to the terror that people
feel when they are you know ledto begin to discuss it?
It is so paralyzing.
I mean, I think there there'sthat sense of it's almost like
they're in front of this hugelion with the or you know,
tyrannosaurus rex, and the teethare right there by you.
It's like, are you kidding me?

(24:18):
You're asking me to stick myhead in that thing?
Are you nuts?
You know, so it's just like, no,I'm running, I'm running.
Get away from get your damntyrannosaurus rex out of here,
too, you know, kind of deal.

SPEAKER_02 (24:28):
Well, and I look at it, I guess I I'm gonna share
from my own life.

SPEAKER_00 (24:31):
Sure.

SPEAKER_02 (24:32):
That's what I pray that God doesn't chase you down
like he did me, becauseapparently I'm a little
stubborn.

SPEAKER_00 (24:40):
And there you heard it here.

SPEAKER_02 (24:42):
I say that because God uh was like, we need to talk
about that.
I'm like, no, we don't, andwe're gonna leave that alone.
Thank you very much for playing.

SPEAKER_00 (24:52):
I'm sorry, who do you think you are again?
God?
I'm really sorry, but you musthave me confused with somebody
that's obedient.

SPEAKER_02 (24:59):
So uh and it was so interesting because I got called
into county court and statecourt and federal court for jury
duty, and the my cop friendswere like, no one is that lucky.
And it was always casesregarding violence.
And the last one with thefederal, the they asked us, did

(25:20):
anybody have an experience withgun violence?
And I put my hand up, severalother people put their hands up,
and who does the judge call on?
Makes me tell in open court whatmy experience was.
And then what, ma'am, has thatbeen dealt with?
And then turn to the rest andsaid, Does anyone else have a
story like hers?

(25:40):
You're all dismissed.
I got it.
And I'm like, Are you kiddingme?
It was that experience.
It was having so many medicalproblems and having them finding
so much scar tissue on my bodythat I didn't expect them to
confront me with.

SPEAKER_03 (25:57):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (25:57):
And I'm like, Lord, I can't keep doing this.
And it's like, or we could talkabout it.

SPEAKER_00 (26:02):
I with the FCC about it.
With the FCC chairman, we can dothis the easy way, or we can do
this the hard way.

SPEAKER_02 (26:08):
And it was literally the I could do this all day
long, or we could talk about it.

SPEAKER_00 (26:13):
Right, right.

SPEAKER_02 (26:13):
And that's literally I was like, I give up.
I I'm exhausted, I can't do thisanymore.
I had to hit that rock bottom.

SPEAKER_00 (26:20):
Sure.
Well, and isn't, I mean, myexperience with my trauma has
been um that initially there isthat fear factor that is just, I
don't even know if I can tellanybody about this, right?
If I tell no one's gonna believeme, and it's just it's so awful
that it happened.
It's so awful what it did to me.
Um, that you know, you youyou're like pent up, pent up.

(26:44):
And then the minute you let itgo, though, you open it up, it's
it's not necessarily floodgates,but all of a sudden I remember
kind of having this experienceof what the hell was I so afraid
of?
You know, and I I really thinkthat that's the point where the
spiritual warfare is going on soheavily because you know, the
enemy of our souls knows if Ican keep this shut up, I've got

(27:05):
power.
But the minute I let I lose thatability to keep it shut up, I
lose all my power because I'malways going to start turning to
the Lord for hell, but what am Isupposed to do about that?

SPEAKER_02 (27:14):
You know, it's just so it's just like so, but uh And
that's one of the things I lovebecause it was one of those
moments where I was called bythe Lord to take it to the
Adoration Chapel, make a list ofthe good and the bad in my life,
sure, and then have him say, nowthat you've made that list,
reread it, who are you becauseof the good and the bad?

SPEAKER_03 (27:36):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (27:36):
And I was like, What?
Right.
He goes, No, who are you becauseof both?

SPEAKER_03 (27:40):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (27:40):
And I said, Well, who I am is compassionate, who I
am is someone who can sit withpeople who have great pain
because I know what it's like tohave great pain.

SPEAKER_03 (27:47):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (27:48):
And he said, and that wouldn't have been possible
if the bad hadn't been theretoo.
Right.
And he said, Do you grasp andrealize the devil can no longer
hold this over you?

SPEAKER_00 (27:59):
Right.
I'm a huge Star Trek fan.
You know, this you probably Ihope you know this about me.
Anyways, um, and there's awonderful one of the movies that
they made with the original uhcast, uh Star Trek V, where they
have this whole God thing, andyou know, uh Spock's
half-brother is, you know,become the sort of guru that
takes away people's pain.

(28:19):
And, you know, of course, allthese people are following him
blindly now because he's takenaway their pain and he's shown
them a higher way of being.
And he gets, you know, evenMcCoy and Spock, you know, is
help is able to help them relivethe experiences that were the
most traumatic for them, right?
And then he gets to Kirk andhe's trying to do the same thing
with Kirk and Kirk's like, no, Iwant my pain.

(28:40):
I need my pain.
My pain is what makes me me.
So I thought, wow, that's areally, really profound thing.
And very, very, very true thatyou know, we tend to run from
our pain, but our pain isintegral to how we learn to cope
with the world, how we learn tointeract with people in the
world.
Um, that's that's reallyfascinating that there is that,

(29:02):
and I don't know exactly what ittakes.
We have free will, you know, wedefinitely have free will.
We can continue to choose toblock it up and you know, shut
it down and try to keep, youknow, just la la la la la.
We're not dealing with thattoday.
I got other things to do, youknow, rather than just
confronting it and saying, youknow what, what's the worst
thing that's gonna happen?

(29:23):
Um, you know, uh because itcarrying it around, I think
you're right, you rock bottom.
You gotta get to the point whereit's just like, I don't want to
carry this load anymore andlearning that, you know, there
are other people that will helpyou with the load, but you
gotta, you know, identify whatthe load is.

SPEAKER_02 (29:39):
So and to take advantage, you know, address the
opportunities that are there.
I I remember the very first timeI went to a retreat called Grief
to Grace for people who haveexperienced sexual assault.

SPEAKER_03 (29:49):
Sure.

SPEAKER_02 (29:50):
I was so surprised when I got there because all of
these people were talking openlyabout the abuse that they had
experienced.
And I was like, what is thisplace?

SPEAKER_00 (30:00):
What's going on?

SPEAKER_02 (30:01):
Because that was something that was always so
secret, and we never talk aboutthat.
It was just like, wow, wow, thisis like this is incredible.

SPEAKER_00 (30:09):
Way too much information, people.
So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (30:11):
But but but to be able to have freedom and to be
authentic and not have to beafraid.
And I think that is thegreatest, one of the greatest
gifts we can give people is justto be with them, not because
they're somehow bad or warped orit.
They've had painful experiencesand we love them.

(30:32):
I had this conversation.
I when I because I've traveledthe world and you're probably
like, yeah, yeah, I know.
I was down in uh in um the downin Mexico and Guatemala, and
there was an area there wherethere was human trafficking
going on with, and it turns outthe church wanted to do an
activity where they wereactually working with um trying

(30:52):
to bring the young ladies out ofthe brothel.

SPEAKER_03 (30:56):
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (30:56):
And in their mind, we'll help those women.
Well, the more I did interviews,the more I found out that the
women were 11 to 13 year oldswho had been brought over from
one of the other countries whowere poor and the families just
needed some place for them togo.
And the lady said, I will takegood care of them, I'll give
them good jobs, yeah, not somuch.
And uh they were trapped in theworld.

SPEAKER_00 (31:16):
Funded by the Epstein Corporation, no doubt.

SPEAKER_02 (31:19):
Well, and and it was an interesting thing because I
asked them, I said, if you aresuccessful in getting them out,
which is going to be a problembecause they're being held,
they're not, this is notsomething they're choosing.
Who among you is going to betheir friend?
And they looked at me and Isaid, here's the thing no one
wants this life.

(31:40):
But if there's the choicebetween this life and having to
deal with your judgment everyday and your unwillingness to be
with them in that moment, youmight as well stay where you are
because it's not any better outoutside of that.

SPEAKER_00 (31:54):
Right.
I love that.

SPEAKER_02 (31:55):
And so it's and they looked at me and I said, you
know, you have to have newfriends, a new way of being, a
new everything just to rebuildyour life from something like
this.
You're gonna need to be thereevery day, checking in on the
and no, you can't just teachthem to run a bakery as
11-year-olds.
You actually need to realizeyou're dealing with children

(32:18):
who've been through a lot.

SPEAKER_03 (32:20):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (32:20):
And they just looked at me and they're like, this
changes everything about howwe're gonna do this.
This is and I'm like, this isnow our challenge.
This is what we're called to.
And and and we're no differenthere in the States.
We have people who arestruggling with all kinds of
things.
We're called to be Jesus tothem.

SPEAKER_00 (32:38):
Right.
Yeah, and there's so much ofthat that is ignored.
Um, I guess that's what I wastrying to get at a bit before,
too, is a sense of um we justdon't seem to give a damn about
our neighbor.
You know, we we've defined, youknow, all of these reasons to
not help people because they'rethreats in some way, you know.

(33:00):
Um, you know, for the life ofme, some of the biggest, you
know, complaints that peoplehave about, you know, this other
type of person who makes achoice about sexuality or
whatever.
Um, you know, you you have thesense of, okay, I get that you
don't agree with that.
I get that that's not thelifestyle you would choose, but
that doesn't absolve you frombeing loving and compassionate
and caring and trying tounderstand where that person is

(33:23):
coming from so that you cancontinue to have a relationship
with them as a human being andas a Christian who should be
caring for them, you know, whoshould be the first one to
listen, the first one to sitdown at the well and say, tell
me about your seven husbands,you know, whatever.
Um, and uh yeah, it I just Idon't know that there's a cure

(33:44):
for it in a in a place where youdon't even acknowledge that
there's an illness.
Because we do, we are uh I I'mafraid to say we're a very sick
country right now with a lot ofvery sick people.
And unfortunately, some of themare in leadership roles, you
know, and they have beenthroughout the course of the
church, too, right?
People that have beentraumatized, people that have

(34:05):
had you know difficult,difficult situations and never
healed from them, never had theopportunity to deal with them in
any you know meaningfultherapeutic way.
So here we are, you know, on the21st century.

SPEAKER_02 (34:22):
Right.
I I know this is gonna soundodd, and you're gonna be like,
have you lost your mind,Catherine?
I'm like, I know that already.

SPEAKER_00 (34:28):
That's not a big deal.

SPEAKER_02 (34:29):
We when they did the Eucharistic Congress, the
National Eucharistic Congress inIndianapolis, the bishop who was
in charge of it caught a lot offlack because they actually
didn't address clergy abuse.
Okay.
And they were like, How couldyou have this big event and that
was nowhere to be seen?
And so they actually did afollow-up webinar specifically
on it.
And Awake, which is one of theorganizations that works with

(34:51):
survivors, did a follow-updiscussion.

SPEAKER_03 (34:53):
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (34:53):
And it was so interesting because though the
members who came together werelike, once again, what we really
want from the bishops, what wereally want is healing.
Why won't they give us healing?
That's really what we so want.
And I looked at them and I, youknow, the Holy Spirit just was
like, here, let me help you.
It was that moment where I said,You do realize that right now,

(35:18):
because of your therapy and yourtrauma recovery work, you have
more human formation than thebishops and the priests do.
And there was this, what?
I said, I've talked with bishopsand priests.
I've talked about you know wherethey're at in their struggles.
And literally, you can see lightbulbs going off around the room,

(35:38):
and they're like, they can'thelp us because they can't give
what they don't have.
And literally they were like, Iactually feel sorry for them.
And they're like, I neveroccurred to me like they they
have an emptiness and a wellthat is not filled that they
can't draw from.

(36:00):
Like that gives me a wholedifferent perspective.
And that's where I come from andsay, like, so how do we fill
each other up?
I I've had this conversationwith some of the diocese staff.
And I said, you all act likethere's the head of the body of
Christ, Christ Himself, and thenthe laity.
And somehow you clergy are outhere somewhere just kind of

(36:22):
flopping around.
I'm like, this is a wild andwild idea here.
What if the laity and the clergyare together the body of Christ?
What if we actually have aresponsibility for each other?
It's not just your job to tendus, it's our job to tend you.
And he looked at me and he waslike, no one has ever said that

(36:44):
before.
I don't know that I've everactually allowed Lady to help
tend me.
I'm like, this is just somethingto look at because God didn't
set us here to say, Lady, goodluck, here you go.
Right.
Work those clergy for all theirworth.

SPEAKER_00 (37:00):
Right.
Well, expecting anyone to haveall the answers is a recipe for
disaster, you know.
And, you know, God helped them.
A lot of priests liked being inthat position.
You know, they were, I I I thinksome were um, you know,
intoxicated by the idea of howall these people are looking
well.
I I have to have the godlyanswers for them.
You know, and it's really easyto get taught caught up in an

(37:23):
ego trap that says, you know, Iam the mouthpiece of God.
It's like, you know what?
We're we're all called to be themouthpiece of God and the hands
of God and the heart of God.
We're all called to do that.
And, you know, God help us, partof the reason our our country's
in the way we are is because thechurch has not been that.
You know, there have beenpockets of it here and there,

(37:45):
but largely when you got people,you know, sitting up and you
know spewing out nonsense, yeah,it's like, okay, why isn't
anyone in their congregation orsomebody that's higher up in the
leadership of that organizationsaying, uh, hold on a second.
You know, that that that is verynon-Christian, what you're
you're spewing out right now.
We don't seem to have that, youknow, in a lot of circles where

(38:06):
we need it.
So I'm I'm glad to hear herethat someone is saying, you know
what, we need to take care ofthe shepherds too, because the
shepherds need a shepherdassociation or some shepherd
training or something that saysthere's a new kind of wolf out
there now.
And we want you to understandthat this wolf doesn't look like
the old wolves used to looklike, is a different kind of
look, and he will fool you ifyou're not care.

(38:28):
You know, there's that that sortof thing just was never
happening.

SPEAKER_02 (38:32):
And I think that's a shift that I'm even seeing now
because I see more and morebishops coming forward and
acknowledging their own mentalhealth challenges that you
didn't see before.
Sure.
Because of course, we've got tobe strong and we've got to be
tough and we gotta be, and I'mlike, that's not real.

SPEAKER_03 (38:48):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (38:49):
You know, and until we can actually talk about what
our struggle is and ask for helpwhen we need help, they're gonna
have a tough time.

SPEAKER_00 (38:57):
Right.
Well, and how do you help anyoneelse when you can't help
yourself or allow yourself to behelped?
Eventually, you're just gonnarun out of steam or you know,
you run off a road somewhere oryou know, something to just end
the never-ending litany ofmisery, you know, kind of thing.
Um Well, you've got some newsources now too.
You were sharing with some ofthe tell tell us about that.

(39:18):
And I I wanna I'll take theinformation that I've got from
you too, and I'll post that onthe website so people can scan
things if they want to get someof these resources themselves.

SPEAKER_02 (39:26):
I created some documents for priests
specifically so that they couldbe looking at how do we make our
parishes more trauma-informed.
So one is called the eightcritical shifts for leading a
trauma-informed parish.
What are those things that weneed to shift just a little bit
to pay attention to and noticewhat's happening with trauma?
Why is why are people respondingthe way that they are?

(39:48):
Why is it, you know, becauseoftentimes we have, as you said
earlier, the fight, flight,freeze, fawn, or flop.

SPEAKER_03 (39:55):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (39:56):
Those are the things that are actually happening.
I actually get to tell a storyabout like, if my amygdala
thought I was trying that a lionwas trying to eat me, how would
it respond?

SPEAKER_01 (40:05):
Flop.

SPEAKER_02 (40:05):
And people, well, that that's the worst one that
says that it this is happening.
The lion's gonna eat me.
So you'd throw yourself to theground.
Right.
Yeah.
You know, but it's in explainingthat I had a room full of people
at the National CatholicPartnership and Disability
Conference look at me and say,I've seen people behave in those
ways.
It never occurred to me that itwas their amygdala running the

(40:29):
show and they were having aresponse to what was happening
and just trying to figure outhow to be safe.

SPEAKER_03 (40:34):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (40:35):
And I said, Here's the game.
Can you be curious?
And I said, you know, I wasgiven the example of me having a
flashback.
And I said, So when you see thathappen, I can understand where
you may initially think, what iswrong with her?
Wrong question, not reallyhelpful.
And I realized trauma-informedpractice would say, What's been

(40:56):
done to her?
Yeah, if you turn to me at thatmoment and asked me that, I got
nothing.
The amygdala is running theshow, I cannot even answer your
question.

SPEAKER_03 (41:04):
Right, right.

SPEAKER_02 (41:04):
So the more important question is, what can
I do right now that would helpher feel safe?
And I said, and when you seethat behavior, is it that she's
mentally ill?
Or is it that her amygdala isrunning the show because it
knows something you don't?
It knows what the past traumawas.

(41:25):
It remembers that when thishappens, we are in serious
trouble and we have got to takeaction, even if in fact we're
not in serious trouble.
You know, and in that moment,and they look to be like, that's
not mental illness.
That I said, that's just thebrain operating regularly as God
designed it.

(41:45):
It happens for all of us.
For some of us, we just aretriggered a little bit more
often than others.
And safety, what can help turnthat tide?
Knowing that they're safe,knowing that we're gonna do what
we can to help protect, we'regonna be there and they we're
gonna be trustworthy, we'regonna be countable.

(42:05):
That will help people heal andcause that amygdala to help
relax.

SPEAKER_00 (42:10):
Wasn't that the second tier of the Maslow
pyramid is safety?
So after food.
So, which you know, you gottahave that.
If you're ever gonna get to thattop of the pyramid, you gotta
have safety.

SPEAKER_02 (42:20):
And if you don't have shelter and you don't have
food, I let me tell you, safe isnot one of your choices at that
moment.

SPEAKER_00 (42:25):
Well, and you're not safe either there, right?

SPEAKER_02 (42:28):
So, um, but okay, and you know the X one is the
five-step framework forresponding to trauma in the
Catholic Church.
It's the Good Samaritanframework.
Okay.
It's noticing.
I mean, are we noticingsomething different about
someone today than what I wouldhave known about how they
normally behave?

SPEAKER_03 (42:44):
Sure.

SPEAKER_02 (42:44):
It's actually taking the time to ask and say, is
everything okay?
Is there anything you need totalk about?
And then if we realize isbecause in that moment of
someone truly listening, youprobably are gonna have people
in tears and people letting youknow about that secret wound,
that secret suffering that theyhave.
Sure.
It's that opportunity then tojust tend.

SPEAKER_00 (43:06):
I remember uh Winnie the Pooh Eeyore being asked
about Eeyore, how are you today?
I'm fine.
Thanks for noticing.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (43:20):
But how often do we not even notice?
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (43:23):
Well, we just let people go on by, and it's just
like, well, you know what?
There goes you as well.
So uh sometimes it's like I wishsomebody would notice how upset.
Well, well, you know, you didn'tdo a good job at yourself,
buddy.
So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (43:36):
Well, and and ultimately what I'm hoping that
people will do is that weactually help them shelter.

SPEAKER_00 (43:40):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (43:41):
And I found something that I thought was a
wonderful piece.
It came out during during COVID.
I talked about how if peoplelose their housing or people
lose their job, they don'tactually need more therapy at
that moment.
What they need is helpre-establishing their housing,
help re-establishing theirfinancial security, having a

(44:02):
purpose in life, and having anetwork of relationships of
people who are there to supportthem.
And my premise is that asmissionary disciples, so often
when we do evangelization, we'reoff for the quick win.
Oh, quick, I got them in.
Okay, we're good.
Quick wins are not going tohappen when people have been
impacted by trauma.
Right.
We're gonna need to go at a muchslower pace, help them feel

(44:26):
safe, recognize they're gonnatest us several times to say,
but are you really safe?

SPEAKER_03 (44:32):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (44:33):
Um and then a couple times more because they can.

SPEAKER_00 (44:36):
Right.
Just because you say I'm gonnabe safe doesn't mean I'm gonna
be safe.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (44:41):
And then maybe, you know, six years and months to a
year in, maybe then we can havea conversation about
evangelization.

SPEAKER_00 (44:48):
I don't know about that.
That sounds a little risky tome.

SPEAKER_02 (44:52):
So you know what my dream is, is at the very end,
the fifth step, people will behealed to a point where they can
actually hear the evangelizationstory and become missionary
disciples themselves.
Do you have any idea what apowerful witness it is to have
people who have been to thebrink and are sharing about
their life now?

(45:13):
It's huge.
We imagine what would bepossible in our evangelization
if we had those those folks outtalking.

SPEAKER_00 (45:20):
That makes me think of um, you know, the the people
listening to Jesus talk, andthey the remark is made that he
spoke with authority.
You know, there that authorityis the genuineness of he he not
only knew what it was to liveamong us, but he knew it was
coming too.
So you know, talk about having acompassionate capability.

(45:42):
I'm gonna die for your sins.
I think I know a little bitabout what you're going through.

SPEAKER_02 (45:45):
So but you know what I also think it was great that
he did?
He didn't just lecture them.
Yeah, he asked a lot ofquestions.

SPEAKER_03 (45:53):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (45:54):
Asking questions gives people a lot more room to
really start to think it throughthemselves.

SPEAKER_00 (46:00):
Sure.
Sure.
So and source number three.
Source number three of fourtotal, right?

SPEAKER_02 (46:06):
Uh specifically four priests, because we have so many
priests, like 45% of priestshave at least one symptom of
burnout.
And I wish I could say it it wasbetter in the Protestant
churches, but that it's not.
And when we're talking about ouryoung priests, priests who are
younger and in their first fiveyears, they're running at about
60% burnout.
Most of them never make it tofive years.

(46:28):
Those are not good numbers.
And it's partly because theyeither come into it with
unresolved trauma or they're nowdealing with their secondary
trauma and they have no systemin place to actually process it.
When you think about therapists,when they not that they are
therapists, but they hearpeople's stories just like
therapists do.

(46:49):
When they listen to people'sstories, they have a depro a
debrief process with asupervisor so they can talk
about what particularly they'vehad particularly hard cases.
Who can I talk to?
Can I take some time for myself?
Do I have a room where I couldgo just to help release what
just happened here?

SPEAKER_03 (47:08):
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (47:08):
You know, when people are upset and they need
that.
So we need that for our priests.
And now here's where I'm goingto go next.
What if we had our bishops whoare actually helping our priests
with that?
And what if our priests, infact, help share that with their
staff?
Because the more that weactually engage with people who
have experienced trauma andwelcome them in, the more that

(47:30):
our lay members are going to beexposed to secondary trauma.
And our missionary disciples aregoing to be exposed to secondary
trauma.
So do we have a process in placethat allows them to debrief what
kind of things just happened?
That they have a self-care plan,that they are wear and realize,
hey, if this starts to happen,if I start to get really cranky
and I'm not patient for peopleanymore, I may be going down the

(47:52):
wrong road here.
I need to stop back and say,what can I do?
And I said, you know, we havethis idea of, oh, I'll go with
you and I'll evangelize withyou, and it will be the two of
us together, and it'll be great.
Yeah, this is probably going tobe much better as a tag team,
where we say, how do we createthis community of support so

(48:13):
that different people in thecommunity can help with
different things for this personas they're walking towards
wellness?

SPEAKER_00 (48:19):
Well, and you think about that, how how wise that
was to even set us them out astwo by two so you had somebody
to check in with, you know,somebody that has seen you up
close, knows you know prettymuch who you are, what looks
normal for you, and what's, youknow, what's going on, Philip.
I you know, you seem kind ofstressed.

SPEAKER_02 (48:37):
So you're having a good day today or anything you
need to talk about?

SPEAKER_00 (48:42):
Paul, I'm not sure about your last sermon there.
He's even a little out there.
So, but uh yeah, it is uhthere's a reason for that, you
know.
But again, you have to have arelationship with someone where
they call you on things.
You know, I think of you knowthe Jimmy Swaggerts of the
world.
How did he ever get to thatpoint?
Where were the people in hislife that just say, uh, you

(49:03):
know, Pastor Swagger, there'ssome bad things going on here.
Uh oh, you just know look atwell, no, no, no, no.
There are some bad things goingon here.
How can I help?
So, uh, but instead of you, I'mgonna just gonna hide that, I'm
pushing that down.

SPEAKER_02 (49:18):
I mean, that's what I appreciate about reading the
Acts is that you see in there,and Peter, how often that uh the
apostles corrected each other,that fernal correction fraternal
correction needed to be there.
Yeah, we need to call each otherout once in a while to say, um,
it might be time to just tocheck ourselves here before we

(49:39):
go any further.

SPEAKER_00 (49:41):
Hmm.
Hmm.
What a concept.
Well, and you have the Ananiasand Sapphira's too are like, you
really thought you could come inand lie to the Holy Spirit, huh?
Okay, that's something How doyou see that going?
Uh the men who dragged yourhusband away are now at the door
and are gonna take your bodyaway too.
So just so you know, uh not agood plan.

SPEAKER_02 (50:02):
Well, but I do appreciate the fact that as you
listen to scripture uh at massat least, last Sunday's first
reading was from Amos, and hewas correcting the uh people
there because they said, Well,your religiousness and your
spirituality are verydisjointed.
You have it that this I have tobe original uh religious and
pious and this, but you have noconcern for the poor.

(50:24):
And it's like you you can't beone or the other, you need to be
both simultaneously.
You need to have a concern forthe poor and for the others
while you are in fact faithfulto what it is that you should be
doing.
We have a tendency to go one orthe other, and then it does we
wonder why this doesn't go well.

SPEAKER_00 (50:42):
Did Amos live in Cuttahae, Wisconsin?
I'm just wondering.
I'm just wondering.
Sorry, couldn't resist.
Cuttae, I pick on the Cuttahayall the time because I grew up
in Bayview.
We're just north of Cuttahae, socut a high, Cuttahei.
I'm sorry, but uh it's a longtime history of picking on you
guys.
So it's not gonna change anytimesoon.
So, but I'm sure there'swonderful people there.

(51:02):
I really know they are.
So, but anyways.

SPEAKER_02 (51:04):
But you asked me, like, how do we get ourselves?
It's taking the time to listento what the Lord has to say.

SPEAKER_00 (51:10):
Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 (51:10):
You know, exactly just kind of listening to that.
And I'm gonna throw one morething out there that I've
learned new this summer.
Did you know that there'sincreasing research that shows
that dementia is actually tiedto unresolved trauma?

SPEAKER_00 (51:22):
Yeah, I saw something.
Where was that?
Um, just I think it was in justin some articles I was scanning
through on Substack and youknow, the research that's going
on.
Like, now that makes completesense.
That, you know, because thereare so many people that I've
known that um in my just mydirect family circle that got
dementia, got it in a seriousway, and they all had unresolved

(51:46):
trauma in their lives just frombits and pieces of things they
would talk about.
And I'm like, have you evertalked to anyone about have you
ever you know gottenprofessional help with that?
And like, no, I I don't knowit's just like, no, that's
that's a pretty serioussituation.
I don't think you're recognizingjust how deeply stuff like that
affects people.

(52:06):
Um, and you know, I you can seeprobably what's happening is the
brain is going on overload.
It's just saying, okay, spent alot of time, a lot of energy
trying to put this thing down,and now I'm just damn tired.
So I'm gonna make you you'regonna start thinking, yeah, here
you go, here's life on aplatter, and you just put that
bladder together any way youwant to, and no one's gonna.

(52:27):
But again, I always come back tothis.

SPEAKER_02 (52:28):
This is a warning to us to say we really do need to
help people intervene soonerrather than later.
And I know it's scary, and Iknow it's well, but what if they
because for most of us it waslike we're so certain that we're
going to be overwhelmed withemotion that we will never
survive it, and then we actuallyget through it because that's
what's like, why do I have to gothrough it?

(52:49):
Why can't I just go around?
That's not the option.
You must go through.
Sorry, and we'll live, but it'shard to see it at that moment.

SPEAKER_03 (52:57):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (52:57):
I always come back to the uh the truth will set you
free, but only after it makesyou miserable.

SPEAKER_00 (53:04):
That's very honest, very genuine.
I like that.
So but I don't want to bemiserable.
Well, too bad.

SPEAKER_02 (53:10):
But I also look at thinking that's a huge challenge
to Christians of all kinds andeverybody else for the matter,
right?
To say, what if we activelyworked to help people resolve
their trauma sooner rather thanlater?

SPEAKER_00 (53:22):
Right, right.
Doesn't get as deeply rootedthen, for one thing.
But and source number four.

SPEAKER_02 (53:28):
Number four is specifically for bishops.

SPEAKER_00 (53:31):
This one's brand new.

SPEAKER_02 (53:32):
This one's brand new, and it's one that we've
been putting out to talk at thehighest levels of leadership.
Okay.
The very things that I wastalking about earlier about
introducing leaders, having asystem for supervision, and then
actually looking to say whatpartnerships are you creating?
What things are you doing toactually build the network and
the ecosystem that actuallyhelps support priests?

(53:54):
Okay.
Because right now we don't havethat.
We I mean, if somebody gets introuble, we may ship somebody
somewhere, but we have no systemin place for debriefing, no
system in place to say, what ifwe don't have to get to the red
zone before we hit we intervene?
What if we because how many ofthe things that we've seen
happen have happened because ofthe risk-taking behavior of

(54:16):
trauma?

SPEAKER_00 (54:16):
Sure.
Well, and yeah, and not catchingthose warning signals were who
is it, um, Father Marseille thatthey recently did the
documentary on and talking abouthow his abuses just you know got
out of control completely andyet weren't confronted
supposedly because of thesuccess of his ministry.
It's like we don't want to rockthat boat too much.
Um you know, and you think aboutthat, uh, excuse me, but how

(54:41):
unchristian is that?
So um, and that that erodes thetrust, right?
It erodes the people'swillingness to even confront
their trauma because it's like,well, I'm just gonna get more
traumatized, you know, if that'sthe the state of the union.
And yet recognizing thosethings, and then I I'm sorry, I
think there's a certain amountof conus that's necessary in
people too to say, you knowwhat, this is not gonna be easy

(55:03):
to confront this, but we've gotto because the seriousness of it
and the consequences of notconfronting it far outweigh the
uncomfortableness I'm gonna haveright now in confronting it and
saying, no, no, no, no, no, no.
We're not just sweeping thisunder the carpet.
Sorry.
Uh there's too much damagethat's been done.
And it's not just to the peopleyou're damaging, but the damage

(55:25):
to you needs to be healed aswell.

SPEAKER_02 (55:27):
And that's where, you know, we and it damages the
entire community around you.
Sin is never an individualthing.
Sin is a community experience.

SPEAKER_00 (55:35):
It's a community sport, yeah.
Right.
You're like, oh my god, really?
So yeah, and it I mean, when youthink of that, I in in theater
we always would talk aboutthere's um this process you go
through as you're developing acharacter, and you have to
understand from the get-go thatno one, no one sees themselves
as an antagonist.
So, you know, the worst, thebiggest slime bags you can play

(55:56):
on stage, you have to find a wayto understand how they made the
choices that they made that madethem that scumbag, right?
And I can guarantee you they'renot thinking themselves, if
they're thinking of themselvesas a scumbag, they're actually
wearing it as a badge of honor.
But they're they're totallyjustified in what they did.
So, you know, to to take thatthis next step, right?

(56:18):
We we have to learn how to seethese people that we think are
just awful, awful human beings,and say, but what happened to
get them to that point?
What what was the thing or thethings?
Well, I don't care.
Okay, well, then you're justadmitting and you know,
reconciling yourself to theproblem always being there.
Because if we don't figure outwhat is is happening, we have no

(56:41):
way of healing, no way ofstopping.
Because it you're you're gonnajust keep going.
Yeah, you don't have any way ofeven recognizing what things to
prohibit.
It's like, you know, well, wethink if you have more vitamin
A, you'll be better.
Well, all right, fine.

SPEAKER_02 (56:55):
So you know, my favorite article that came out
at Lent, which just talks aboutthis very thing, is c titled was
Sin Makes You Stupid.
It literally is like once youhave some, you lose any ability
to see that there's anythingelse wrong.
And then so you just double downand then you triple down and
then you quadruple down, andit's just like, stop me, stop

(57:16):
myself.

SPEAKER_00 (57:17):
I like that.
Remember, remember America's sinmakes you stupid.
So yeah, that I can buy that ina big way.
Or sin or stupid t-shirts.
There'd be a there's a merchline there, I'm sure.
So any Kathy, uh, I can't thankyou enough.
It's how you kind of called outof the blue, and I'm like, we we
had great timing there too.

(57:37):
You were calling me like, I'm ina meeting.
God, listen, then I'd think Igotta call her back when I get
done.
And of course that doesn'thappen because I'm me and I
don't have a brain half thetime.
So, but I can't thank you enoughfor just taking the time.
I know you're just in townbriefly, it sounded like, right?

SPEAKER_02 (57:52):
I just kind of popping in.
I thought I'm gonna take achance and excellent.

SPEAKER_00 (57:55):
I'm glad you did.
Kathy is the executive director,right?
The president, CEO, however youwant to call it, uh, Feed My
Sheep.

SPEAKER_02 (58:01):
Gather my lost sheep.

SPEAKER_00 (58:02):
Gather my lost sheep.
I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_02 (58:03):
That's okay.

SPEAKER_00 (58:04):
I have somebody else that's a feed my sheep person,
too.
So, but gather my lost sheep.

SPEAKER_02 (58:08):
So in the ministry is primarily devoted to uh
evangelization and uhorganizational leadership.
We're applying trauma-informedprinciples to each of those
because our goal is to helppeople be able to hear the
gospel.
They can't do that withouthealing first, and that applies
both in the pew as well as ourclergy.

SPEAKER_00 (58:29):
What a concept, huh?
Boy, let's heal the people thatare healing the people and we'll
all be healed better, won'tthey?
Oh, yep, yep, yep, yep, theywill.
So thank you so much, Kathy.
Thanks for sharing.
And if you people want to findout more, they can come to the
website and I'll have at leastthese sources that they can
scan.

SPEAKER_02 (58:45):
Where else can they go to?com.

SPEAKER_00 (58:51):
Okay.
Gather my lost sheep.
All one word.
Gather my lost sheep atgmail.com.
How much easier can it get?
So, and just remember thatgather my lost sheep.
It makes complete sense too,right?
And who's gonna do that?
The shepherds, right?
And who are the sheep?
We are! So, but anyways, thanksso much, Kathy.
Great talking with you again.

(59:11):
Take care.
Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 (59:12):
Okay.