May 3, 2024 • 51 mins
Have you ever wondered what it takes to outmaneuver a billion-dollar corporation on Google's battleground? This isn't just a pipe dream, but a reality for SEO maestro Damon Burton, who joins us to share the electrifying saga of his ascension from car enthusiast to digital marketing virtuoso. Buckle up as we unravel Damon's story, where the sheer tenacity of a man and the transformative power of SEO collide, leading to a thriving business that champions the underdog.
Turning points are the plot twists of our lives, and Damon's came with the shock of an office raid that left him at a career crossroads. Opting to bank on his own potential, he navigated through the worlds of web design and SEO, armed with wisdom from influential reads and a personal mantra courtesy of Grant Cardone. This episode isn't just about professional gambles; it's a candid exploration of the conditions that feed our decisions and the personal tribulations that shape our paths, including Damon's own health challenges and the guitars that stand as silent witnesses to unanticipated success.
As if peering into a crystal ball, we prognosticate the future of SEO in the age of AI, dissecting how Damon preserves the humanity of content in a digital age. Balancing family life with sharp SEO strategies, he exemplifies how altruism and acumen aren't mutually exclusive in business. Immerse yourself in a narrative that stitches together a tapestry of authenticity, strategy, and integrity, demonstrating that the heart of entrepreneurship beats strongest when it's synced to the rhythm of ethical practice.
Thanks for listening. Please check out our website at www.forsauk.com to hear great conversations on topics that need to be talked about. In these times of intense polarization we all need to find time to expand our Frame of Reference.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Welcome to Frame of Reference informed, intelligent
conversations about the issuesand challenges facing everyone
in today's world.
In-depth interviews to help youexpand and inform your frame of
reference.
Now here's your host, raoulLabrèche.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Well, welcome everybody to another edition of
Frame of Reference, profiles inLeadership.
I waited there to see if Icould remember and if you would
think I was not rememberingwhich I hope you were, because I
wasn't remembering thatProfiles in Leadership was part
of my title, which is a bad sign.
But it's late in the day on aWednesday, so I'm going to ask
my listeners to please cut mesome slack and I know that my
(00:42):
guests will, because I'vealready just been talking with
him a little bit and today'sguest, damon Burton, is one of
the more laid-back guests.
I've gotten that vibe rightaway.
He's just laid-back, he's gotguitars on his wall.
I mean, this is a person thatjust knows how to kind of, you
know, do the 1950s beatnik thingand, just, you know, snap
fingers and feel like dude, it'sall right, just chill, just let
(01:05):
the world, let life happen,baby.
Okay, right, damon, am Ireading that right?
Speaker 3 (01:10):
Totally, totally.
Yeah, Congratulations onremembering the name of your
show.
Give you kudos for that.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Thank you for that.
I need the accolades thatreally do, the positive
affirmation of people sayingit's okay to be old and
forgetful.
As I tell friends of mine, Ihave some timers, sometimes I
remember, sometimes I don't.
But Damon is a husband, afather of three, and he beat a
billion-dollar company byoutranking their website on
(01:38):
Google and from then on herealized he was on to something
here and went on to build aninternational search engine
marketing company that's workedwith Inc 5000, shark Tank,
featured businesses alike.
So we're going to be talking SEOtoday, folks, search engine
optimization.
So if you've got a website, ifyou're thinking about having a
website, if you're thinkingabout just you know, wanting to
(01:59):
explore what it takes to makethe web work and what makes a
site popular, damon's your man.
He's going to be answering someof those questions and a lot
more.
And what I love the most aboutit is you're also kind of the
epitome of an entrepreneur.
You have an idea, you gave it atry, gave it a whirl and it
(02:20):
took off right and the processhas proved itself over time.
So I'm really excited to talkabout it.
I think that's just a greatjourney story, if nothing else.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
So yeah well, there's a lot of truth to that.
And then I mean, if we want tobe dramatic, of course I'm a
theater guy, come on, yeah.
So well then let me give youthe little background right
before I decided to give SEO awhirl and see if it was my jam.
So my background was originallyin web design, and the way that
(02:52):
I got into web design isbecause I was into cars, and so
I started a car enthusiastwebsite, and as that started to
grow, I said, well, how do Imake this better?
And so that's how I started tofall into design.
And then I said, how do Imonetize this?
And that's how I started tofall into marketing.
So then I did design on theside after I picked up that
little bit of skill set.
So that's where the side hustlecomes in that a lot of us
(03:12):
entrepreneurs have.
But the sensationalized parthappens when, so in addition to
that, I had the day job and Iworked remotely from home for a
company in Vegas.
One day I couldn't get a holdof anybody at the day job, and
so this was before Slack and, ifyou remember, aol Instant
Messenger, and so I was tryingto get a hold of the team that
way and all of a sudden somebodywrites me back and says did you
(03:33):
hear what happened?
And I said, no, what's going on?
I can't get a hold of anybody.
Well, come to find out, thecompany got raided by the ATF
and the FTC guns blazing moviescene and the business got shut
down.
So then I had a choice to make,which was see if I still had a
job.
So I had three choices See if Ihad a job.
Two, go find a new job.
(03:55):
Or three, bet on myself.
And so that's the moment whereI said okay, let's give
entrepreneurship a try.
And then you know, the rest ishistory.
There's a couple of things inbetween there.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
That's pretty wild.
That's the classic cruciblestory of the bird getting just
pushed out of the nest andeither fly or, you know, hit the
ground and go splat right atthat point.
That's fantastic.
Well, one of the things.
I warned you about this aheadof time, damon, I like to start
out with a little bit of myfavorite things.
Deal, rorschachian, totally,you can say something, you say
(04:28):
whatever comes to mind.
If you need to retract, I'mokay with that too.
Don't feel like, oh no, blue, Idon't like blue, I like red.
That's totally fine.
There's no censorship eitherway.
But I'll try to make this asfun as possible.
It's an opportunity for you andI to find out more about each
other.
So because I'll pipe into it.
So how about your favoritecomfort food?
Speaker 3 (04:52):
That's a Pandora's box, because I got an autoimmune
condition a couple years ago.
Oh, that's put me on a rollercoaster of what I can and can't
have.
So my favorite food is anythingthat I can eat that tastes good
and doesn't hurt me.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
That sounds like that's a pretty high bar, though
, actually for you to have toget through.
So my wife has immune disordersof that nature to autoimmune
things.
Hers tend to be more justphysical incapacitation on
things.
Hers tend to be more justphysical incapacitation on
things, but her joints are beingattacked by one particular
(05:30):
thing.
So autoimmune disorders are alot more prevalent than I think
most people realize.
I'm sorry Boy.
If I had found out that I had adisorder that said, okay, can't
have any more pizza orsomething, I'd be like what?
That's what happened.
Yeah, how about your favoritebook?
Speaker 3 (05:54):
There's two that come to mind because it had a big
impact on my business velocity.
I was reading Four HourWorkweek and E-Myth Revisited in
a similar time frame, and Ithink a combination of those two
is why I always think about it,because if you're familiar with
them, e-myth Revisited tellsyou how to build a business
that's dependent on processesand not people, so you don't
(06:14):
lose the talent as they come andgo.
And then 4-Hour Workweekteaches you how to cut corners,
and the interesting combinationof reading those in a similar
time frame is, I realized, well,you shouldn't cut corners until
you know what your processesare, because then you don't know
what's at stake.
So I always think of those twokind of at the same time.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
Okay, so really fundamental principles that you
were able to apply to just aboutany business, right?
So fantastic.
How about do you have afavorite?
Speaker 3 (06:41):
Let's kind of simply do you have a favorite bird?
Speaker 2 (06:46):
I know nothing about birds, nothing, not even a raven
or a crow or a pigeon.
Speaker 3 (06:51):
The colors of them and the general shapes.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
No ornithology from you.
That's fine.
Do you have a favorite guitar?
We're going to put you on thespot here now Of those two
guitars is there a favorite Ihave to give the story of the
guitar.
That's okay, you's okay, no oneelse does.
Speaker 3 (07:12):
it's okay, I'll pretend it's brand new to me too
.
Okay, so I have guitars in thebackground if you're listening
to this just on audio.
And so what happened was, um,I've always enjoyed music and
followed it into radio, so I didon air and radio for nearly a
decade, and when the pandemichit, I thought, okay, maybe this
is an opportunity for things toslow down and I'm going to pick
up the guitar.
(07:32):
And so I purchased guitars andwas ready to rock and roll, and
then business just shot upliterally within a week.
So I bought the guitars.
You know, the second week ofMarch 2020 when everybody went,
well, something's happening thisweek, so I bought the guitars.
You know, the second week ofMarch 2020, when everybody went,
whoa, something's happeningthis week.
And then I had, like, oneclient cancel and I said, okay,
maybe this is a sign ofsomething to come.
And and then about four dayslater, business just started
(07:55):
doubling and so I had about afour day window to learn guitar.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
And they're sitting there.
They're back there sittingthere, dude, you know we're
still waiting, so whenever youfeel like doing it, we're here
to play with you.
Okay, you have a tuner too,right?
You don't have a, you can'teven.
Speaker 3 (08:10):
I'll pick them up and I'll tune them and then I'll
extrav for 10 minutes and thenthey go back.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
Yeah, that's better than some people do.
Mine haven't been tuned in awhile and I got a lot of excuses
and no good ones.
Speaker 3 (08:26):
How about?
Do you have a favorite quote,damon?
I could probably give an answeron that one.
Yeah, grant Cardone said andI'm not like a diehard Grant
Cardone fan, but he had a quotethat I found interesting, and it
is along the lines of pay theprice today so you can pay any
price tomorrow.
And so I remember in my earlyentrepreneur days I've had the
agency for 17 years and I'vealso been married for 17 years.
(08:48):
I've been with my wife for 20years, and so we waited five
years before we had kids, and soI had like this year or two
window of having already beenmarried but not having kids yet.
But the business started.
And so I remember thinking backto that timeframe before I
heard the quote, thinking thatsimilar concept where it's like,
(09:10):
you know, I need to really putin the time now so I don't have
to later.
And so when I heard that quoteyears later, it really resonated
to me about the choices I madeearly in entrepreneurship to
kind of pay that sacrifice tobuy the freedom later.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Sure, Isn't it interesting too, as we look back
on our lives and you see thingsthat at the time this has been
my experience at least that youlook back and think boy, that
was really hard at the time, butnow, having all that time
afterwards, I look that wasreally important, that I went
through, that I'm really, youknow, start to embrace those
things, I think, in some ways.
Speaker 3 (09:43):
So I was going to add on what you just said.
Yeah Is that you do it longenough and it actually becomes
appealing, and so when you runinto these struggles, you're
like cool, there's something onthe other side of this.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
Yeah, yeah, Very much .
So how about do you have afavorite sweater or a favorite
piece of clothing that just youwhen you put it on?
Or you need lucky slippers, youknow that kind of thing that
just you when you put it on, oryou need?
Speaker 3 (10:05):
lucky slippers, you know that kind of thing.
So, um, uh, I I have one of myown company hoodies that is
particularly comfortable, that Ienjoy and seems to just fit
right, and I'm not a swag guyeither, okay.
So, um, I was really hesitantto buy anything with our company
branding on it, and but when,when we got it, we did it for a
team get together and thingslike that, and it was just one
(10:28):
of those things that just fitjust right.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
Okay, do you have a let's talk mode of
transportation?
Do you have a favorite type oftransportation that you like to?
If you have an opportunity todo this or another in kind that
you would always go, I'll takethe boat or whatever another in
kind that you would always go,I'll take the boat or whatever.
Speaker 3 (10:51):
I'll be probably biased on this one because
historically in general.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
I don't have favorites, raul, you just take
life.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
As it happens, I get it.
But I can give an answer tothis one because over the years,
as I was fortunate to establishsome reasonable success, I've
never really been amaterialistic guy.
So all the money has kind ofgone back into the company, or
it's gone into what I callmemories and legacy, and so it
always goes back into what areopportunities for my wife and
(11:16):
kids.
And so we travel a lot and webought a pool for the kids and
things like that.
So I've never really rewardedmyself.
We bought a pool for the kidsand things like that, so I've
never really rewarded myself.
And so over the years, you gothrough the thoughts of well, if
I were to reward myself, whatdo I really care about?
And so I went through the,however, long time frame almost
(11:40):
seemed like a mini midlifecrisis of do I buy a watch that
I don't?
Speaker 2 (11:41):
really care for.
Like something inside tells meI need to buy a Rolex.
Yeah, I just need more stuff.
Yeah, good stuff, so I need tobuy a Rolex.
Speaker 3 (11:46):
Yeah, I just need more stuff.
Yeah, good stuff.
So I finally settled on a carand so I just recently bought an
Audi R8.
And so that's been fun to driveand the kids enjoy it.
And what I enjoy most aboutacquiring the car that was
unexpected is the conversationsthat it invites that was
unexpected is the conversationsthat it invites.
(12:08):
And so you get these people thatwill literally come up to you
at gas stations and stoplightswithout words and saying you
know, this is my favorite car,but I've never seen one in real
life.
Or I get text messages from theneighbors saying can you take
my kid for a ride?
They have a poster of that caron the wall and so it's really
cool kind of seeing theconversations that have come
from since acquiring that.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
Cool.
It makes me think of thatSeinfeld show, was it or who is
it that does the two comics in acar having coffee, so, or what?
Not Something like that?
So I thought you know what aninteresting concept to have.
And they always have reallyinteresting conversations, which
I hope they're not scripted.
And they always have reallyinteresting conversations which
I hope they're not scripted.
They sure don't sound like theyare so well, that actually ties
(12:48):
to what I usually use as a finalquestion is do you have a and
it doesn't necessarily have tobe your favorite one but do you
have a memory or a life eventthat happened to you that when
you run across things inday-to-day life, that, if it's,
it might be a smell or it mightbe a you know particular
painting sometimes that peoplewill talk about, but when you
(13:10):
see it or you experience itagain, it brings you back to
that and there's an experiencethere that either a memory or
it's a, just a feeling that itevokes in you.
Um, that you really find is, uh, you're happy when those
moments happen because they kindof they recenter us, I think,
in a way.
Speaker 3 (13:27):
Well, between now and seeing your beautiful face for
the first time 10 minutes ago isalways Raul, is is the epitome
of happiness.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
Yeah, so actually oh boy, there you go.
You're lathering it on there,Damon.
Speaker 3 (13:46):
My office.
So my office is, um, you know,I work at home and so it's it's
in the basement, but it's midground level.
So, um, my office window, thefloor of my office, is three,
four feet underground, but thewindow is a foot above ground.
And so I can, you know, in thesummer my kids are running
around the backyard and playingaround, and so I remember, a
(14:09):
couple of years ago they'd playhide and go seek, and so they'd
always cheat, they'd knock on mywindow and go dad, can I sneak
in the office?
And so, um, I eventually put ina magnetic screen so I could
just open the screen.
And I remember one time, play,you know, going out and playing
with them, and I had juststopped in the middle of the
(14:31):
work and, um, and I rememberwalking out thinking, uh, it was
just one of those moments whereI was like, you know, I just I
just walked away from businessand everything's fine and
everything's going to be fine,and so it was kind of like a
moment of peace of mind, and so,where I'm still in the office
and the window is still there,and you know, that kind of comes
(14:51):
to mind pretty often.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
That's cool.
Yeah, there are.
What is it?
They say You'll you'll never,at the moment of our death,
we'll never be sorry that wespent too much time with our
family, you know, with thepeople we love the most, which
is, you know, the big regret isI didn't right.
So well, thank you for that.
That's a wonderful memory.
I'm going to remember thatmyself as being a thing that I'm
(15:16):
happy someone had thatexperience.
So so we'll segue into yourbusiness, as you've alluded to.
So was search engineoptimization.
Was SEO something that was onyour radar, that you had an idea
for and you wanted to exploreit or, I guess, explain even if
people don't know that marketingterm or that technology how you
(15:40):
looked at SEO before, what youridea was for SEO and how you
see it being optimized or howyou're trying to use it in a
unique way.
Speaker 3 (15:49):
Yeah, so SEO stands for search engine optimization.
Your goal is to show up higheron search engines for words that
you could monetize, but you doit without paid ads, and so you
do it by improving thecredibility of your website, and
so it positions higher thannatural results.
So it was not on my radar inthe slightest.
The way that I got into it isyou know, I briefly touched on
(16:11):
earlier about how I built a carenthusiast website and that's
how I developed the skillset.
And then I eventually kind ofcame to, I think you said, the
crucible moment where it's likeokay, I need to decide if I'm
going to go get another job oror lean into my side hustle.
And so my side hustle at thetime was web design clients, not
SEO.
And what had happened was one ofthose design clients said what
(16:33):
do you know about Google?
And I said I know enough that Ithink I can help you, but not
enough that I feel confident incharging you for it.
But I also don't want to workfor free.
So what I negotiated with themas I presented an offer and I
said well, how about I do workfor free up until we hit these
mutually agreed upon goals?
(16:53):
And if we hit them, then youowe me retroactively and we
start a retainer.
So they didn't have anything tolose.
It either didn't work and itwas free, or it worked and, and
then they got an ROI out of it.
And then that way I also feltcomfortable because I was
dabbling in it, so I didn't havethe guilt of charging them for
(17:14):
something that didn't have aclear path on.
But I was also incentivized forit to be successful, and so we
ended up hitting those goalswithin a couple months.
And then I was able to takethat concept from client number
one to another client that hadactually introduced each other.
So I said hey, I just did thisfor the other guys.
Do you want the samearrangement?
Don't pay me anything.
I'm kind of liking this.
(17:35):
Let me see if it works.
And I was able to hit thosegoals with client number two.
So at that moment I said youknow, I know that I don't want
to be an agency that offers atall.
So let's see if SEO issomething that holds my interest
and I can be successful at itand drive a return for clients.
Speaker 2 (17:53):
And it turned out to be that it was.
Well, it's a.
It strikes me that it's aphenomenally complex thing in
one realm and a very simplething in another realm, I mean
in terms of the.
I'm struggling with this, but Iknow there's so many different
factors or so many things thatyou're trying to, you know, sift
through and get through inorder to get your thing.
(18:14):
But if you're simple about whatit is that you're trying to
capture in those things, to meit's kind of like a filter.
You know, as long as you havethe right things in your filter,
then you just have to have asuccessful means of casting that
rod and getting it.
Am I oversimplifying it, or isthat kind of the?
Speaker 3 (18:33):
I am actually really fascinated in your comment
because you're the first personthat has ever actually nailed it
, and so usually it's like allon the other side of complexity.
And so there is truth thatthere's a lot of things to SEO,
but what happens with otheragencies, or the clients of
agencies, or the dialoguebetween the client and agency,
(18:54):
is where it gets complicated isthey're trying to look for
loopholes in the algorithms andthey're trying to cut corners.
And so, instead of trying tocut corners on this large
quantity of things, you distillit down to three simple
perspectives.
And so what you do when youtake those three, those three,
(19:16):
we'll call them buckets, right?
And so bucket number one isyour website structure, and so
it's things like does it loadquickly, is it mobile friendly?
Is it a good user experience?
That's not a complicatedconcept.
So then the second bucket iscontent.
You can only show up on Googlefor what Google can read.
Do you communicate yourproducts and services?
Do you communicate your valuepropositions?
Also not a complicated concept.
(19:36):
And so then your third categoryis external credibility.
Do other people talk about yourbrand?
Do they link to your website?
Do you have positive reviews?
So all of the components, we'llsay there's thousands of things
that you can monitor, measure,do for SEO.
All of them fall into one ofthose three buckets, and so if
you just focus on those, thenyou don't get lost in shiny
(20:00):
object syndrome, you don't getobsessed over algorithms, and if
you just stick to thosefundamentals.
In fact, when algorithms rollout, our clients have never got
a penalty, because we're notgaming the system and instead
they're either maybe neutral,but generally positive on the
other side of these algorithms,when everybody else is panicking
because Google caught up to thepattern of them trying to
(20:22):
manipulate the system.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
Sure.
Well, it sounds to me too thatit really puts the onus on your
customers to determine andreally figure out what do they
want to be known for.
You know what is the we used tosay in my day?
You know, the proof has to bein the pudding.
So it's one thing to kind ofsee yourself as one thing, but
(20:45):
you have to also be able todeliver on that.
I don't know why, but I'mthinking of you know who I
thought I was when I got marriedand who my wife has, you know,
saw me as, and now who I havebecome as time went by and she
said, yeah, no, that's not you.
If that was you, then this youknow.
So I've had to redefine myselfover and over and say, yeah, no,
(21:05):
I do want to be what that isthat I portrayed myself as.
So I've got to make some shiftshere in order to really be that
, so that I'm not I think whatyou're saying I'm not gaming the
system, I'm not trying to gameher.
Is that a process that you'reable to help people kind of do
that sifting and winnowing oftheir persona, their brand, if
(21:26):
you will?
Speaker 3 (21:27):
Yeah.
So it's a little bit of both onthe client side and then the
agency side.
So ideally on the client sidethey have enough clarity in the
product or service that theyoffer that they can go.
Hey, seo is a long-term play,so I'm confident enough in the
general path that I can committo that long-term timeframe and
not pivot later and waste allthat time in between.
Now do you have to have itperfected?
(21:50):
No, you should have a proof ofconcept and then the SEO agency
should be able to go.
Okay, cool.
Well, now we can take andreverse engineer the competition
and so you can then look at allsorts of tools out there that
go.
What are?
What are your customers askingabout Google already about this
product or service?
So then you start to align thegap between the buyer intent,
(22:11):
the pain points they have in theproduct and service that you
offer.
So you should have some clarityon what you either want Like
you said, you know you're kindof future pacing yourself what
do you ultimately want to beknown for, or what can you
ultimately monetize the most inthe long term?
And then that's where theagency can go.
Okay, cool, now that I knowwhat your vision is, then I can
(22:32):
align everything else in between.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
Is there a process in there at all where the I guess
I'll call it a gut check, whereyou say, okay, this is what you,
what you're trying to get into,but is that really who you are?
Speaker 3 (22:46):
Yeah, I mean, that happens all the time.
So, like when we start digginginto the data, what I tell
clients is we try to remove theemotions.
So my job is not to tell youthe target or phrase that you
can monetize that feels good.
Mine is the my my job is todrive a return for you, and
often I have to tell you you'rewrong, and part of that is you
(23:07):
know, because the data over heresays no, and I can actually
give you an example.
So one of our first clientswho's still with us, it's one of
those two clients I mentioned.
So they've still been with usfor 17 years and it's an
electronics manufacturingcompany and so before we started
working with them, they doprinted circuit board assembly.
So the keyword is assembly atthe end, because you can have
(23:31):
printed circuit board companiesand then there's assembly
companies and what thedifference is is one of them
makes the circuit boards.
So you know, for the layman'sterm it looks like a big
microchip kind of thing and theygo into electronics.
Now what was happening beforethey came to us is they were
spending 80% of their budget ontargeting printed circuit boards
.
They don't sell printed circuitboards.
(23:53):
Somebody else makes them,delivers it to them, and then
they do what's called the finalproduct assembly, the final box
assembly, and so they werespending 80% of their budget,
80% of their time on somethingthey literally don't even offer.
But it really makes sense whythey thought they should target
that.
And so what you want to do islook at it and go, okay, we
don't want the thing that hasthe most volume, we want the
thing that has the most relevant, and then if it also has high
(24:18):
volume, then that's just a bonus.
So do you ultimately want 7 in10 visitors to buy your thing,
or 1 in 10,000?
I want the 7.
Right?
Speaker 2 (24:25):
right.
It's kind of an 80-20 principle, isn't it?
That you do need to spend the80% of your time on the 20%
that's really profitable, kind,so kind of thing, instead of the
other way around, which is kindof you know, this big net,
that's all.
Well, we could be this and wecould be that, we could be the
other thing, and it's like, yeah, but that's irrelevant, that's
not you and that's taking timeand energy away from stuff that
(24:53):
is you.
So how do you do that?
I mean, how does a multi?
I mean one of the things youhave here is how do I build a
multimillion-dollar businesswithout any advertising, which
does seem like total?
I mean, that's like heresy,right?
I mean there are probably.
If there's advertising, peoplelistening, they're going you're
an idiot, kind of thing, right?
I mean it's just yeah.
Speaker 3 (25:10):
Well, that opens up a different topic.
So you know, ironically, forrunning a marketing agency, we
don't do any marketing ourselves, and so we do the basics of the
product that we offer toourselves.
But I'll tell you why we don'tdo it aggressively.
So you know, as an SEO agency,the last thing I want to rank
for on Google is the word SEO,and the reason why is just what
(25:34):
we talked about you know, thePrinted Circuit Board Assembly
example Because there's twoproblems with an SEO agency
trying to target the word SEO.
One is that SEO, what are youtrying to learn it?
You know, are you trying tohire an agency?
Are you trying to DIY done foryou Whatever Right?
There's a million differentunqualified sources of leads
(25:55):
related to the word SEO, andthat's not where I want to spend
my time, on unqualified leads.
The other reason is probably99% of people searching the word
SEO are other SEO companiestrying to rank for SEO, seeing
if they rank for SEO, and so Idon't want to show up for these
other agencies.
So, with that being said, whatwe don't do for ourselves, we
(26:20):
don't do anything.
So I don't have an email list,we don't do any paid ads, I
don't have a funnel.
I don't have any outbound salesmechanism, but we have
consistently done multiplemillions for years and the
source of sales comes from onlytwo places.
Now, for the first decade ofthe business, it was purely
referrals.
You dial in a good product,deliver a good service, and then
(26:46):
people let you into their innercircle.
You get access to people thatyou wouldn't have otherwise.
Then, a couple years ago, Istarted being more present on
social media.
A quick background story is Iused to have a real hard line.
I used to only use Facebook,and I still primarily only do.
But I had a hard line where itwas just for personal use and so
(27:10):
if a lead or a client wouldmessage me, I would just ignore
them and eventually, because Iwanted that, that was kind of my
you know my space, right, thatwas a way to detach, and so
eventually what I did is I wasreally good about filtering the
content, so it wasn't dramaticor anything.
I just realized one day it wasunproductive and so I shut it
(27:32):
down.
Now, if you know anything aboutFacebook, if you delete it it
doesn't really go away.
You can just log back in thenext day.
So what I did is I starteddeleting all my content.
I'm like, if I'm going todelete this, I'm going to truly
delete it.
So I started deletingeverything and it was taken
forever.
And so I asked my wife and shegets all the credit because she
(27:53):
spent like three weeks deletingevery post I'd ever made,
deleting every comment I'd madeon other people's walls, and
then, in a true testament to thestrength of your relationship
is I gave her access to myprivate messages.
Oh my Lord.
So what had happened is shewent through and just wiped
everything out.
Now, how this comes back aroundis, once everything was deleted,
(28:17):
I had one client who gotthrough that filter.
They were a friend first, andso that's how they were already
engaging me and then, now that Iwiped it out, that was kind of
our communications platform.
And when I got thinking, if I'mgoing to turn this back on, I
don't want to turn it on forjust that, I want to be
intentional about it.
And so then, when I turned itback on, I said the first thing
(28:39):
I said is you know who the heckare the 1500 people that I used
to have as contacts, because Ican only think of 20 of them now
.
And then I started going well,how do I share business and
entrepreneurship and SEO relatedcontent without boring my
friends and family, whohistorically were my only
audience?
And then, on the other side, howdo I continue to talk about my
(29:00):
appreciation for my wife andkids without boring a business
audience?
And I finally just said, Idon't care, because those are
both me and we'll kind of figureit out as we go and figure out
what my voice is.
And as I started publishingthat content, um, coming full
circle to the source of leads is, after about three months I
started to notice I was gettingsome reasonable engagement.
(29:20):
After about six months Istarted to go oh, I think I've
actually had a few deals fromthis.
And then, at about the ninemonth mark, I quantified it and
it added $150,000 in annualrecurring contracts.
And so at that point I said,okay, well, this is obviously
working and let's reverseengineer the components of this
that are working and then figureout how to scale this as an
(29:41):
actual business model.
And so back to the originalquestion is you know, we built a
multimillion-dollar businesspurely off of a good product
deliverable, and my social mediacontent is me sharing why it's
a good product deliverable.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
Content is me sharing why it's a good product
deliverable.
Isn't that interesting too?
By by not trying to make a buck, you actually made a bunch of
bucks.
So that was a.
That's an interesting reapingand sowing principle that you
were, you were caring for I.
I I've worked in a company thatservices farmers a lot in rural
(30:19):
Wisconsin areas and there's alot of focus there on just
helping those people that arejust working hard to feed the
rest of us.
You know, when it comes rightdown to it and I kind of see
some parallels in what you'retalking about you know you're
just working hard to dosomething of quality for people
(30:39):
that will help them and that hasnot only intrinsic, I think,
rewards.
You know, personally, when I'vedone that kind of thing, you
always feel that sense of ah, Idid some good today.
But there's also the you knowthe culmination of how that
trickles down right to all kindsof other people Do you oh sorry
, go ahead, we must be businessspirit animals.
Speaker 3 (31:01):
Because you know you're right, Like that's why I
started doing it was just, itfelt good.
And then, as I got into thebunts down the road and I
noticed I could quantify it,then that's when I said well,
great, now it's the best of bothworlds, because if I do this at
scale, I can continue to helppeople and get that personal
reward.
And then if I can also use thisas a business model, then then
why not?
(31:21):
No?
great example is this morning Idid a two hour presentation.
So I my contractual rate is athousand dollars an hour.
So if you want to hire me as aconsultant, I charge a thousand
bucks.
But I do presentations for freeall the time because I enjoy
helping other aspiringentrepreneurs, I enjoy helping
(31:42):
newbie businesses becomeestablished businesses and
there's a personal reward factor.
And so I think it's importantfor entrepreneurs to kind of
look at that parallel or thatjuxtaposition, because I think
sometimes we get stuck if it'slike one or the other Like I
need to be the cheap guy or Ineed to be the expensive guy,
(32:02):
and you can be whatever it is,as long as you define the
context.
So for me I'm the reallyexpensive guy and less I want to
help you because I think youwon't waste my time.
Speaker 2 (32:08):
Interesting.
Um, so I I keep thinking ofthis question and I'm not sure
I'm going to ask it the way itreally is inside of me, but here
I'm going to go, I'm going todive in here.
Is there an attitude shift or acharacter shift that you think
(32:28):
needs to happen in businessesthat are not performing as well
as they potentially could byadopting, you know, more of a
methodology that you're tryingto build with your clients?
Is there a?
Do we have to let go ofsomething that is so entrenched
(32:49):
in you know, contemporaryAmerican capitalism, you know in
the free enterprise system?
Do we have to let go of someyou know widely held and deeply
held, you know maxim, or youknow belief, in order to make
this work?
Does that make sense?
Speaker 3 (33:06):
Yeah, I think I think directly.
There's a different answer fordirectly and a different answer
for indirectly.
So, do we direct?
Is there something veryspecific for us to false belief
to shed?
I think that depends.
I don't think there's auniversal one, but indirectly
probably something.
Yeah, because the majority of usthink, especially when you're
(33:29):
newer in entrepreneurship, youalways think you have to be this
mega company or follow the megacompany's ways and or
somebody's ways.
Right, you follow somebodyonline and and so, but?
But where the gap in between isthe person you follow online.
The reason why they'resuccessful is not because they
do the same thing that the otherperson does, is because they
(33:50):
were dramatically different thaneverybody else, which rose them
to the spotlight.
And so I think there's that,that middle ground where we see
the success and we misinterprethow they got there.
The misinterpretation is thatwe need to copy that one.
Instead it's we need to do theopposite.
We need to do whatever ourunique value proposition is or
(34:11):
our unique story is, or you know, my model is probably the worst
idea for somebody else, right?
And so it's like, just becauseI'm saying it works for me
doesn't mean you should dropeverything and go follow it, and
that's that's probably what alot of us do too often is is try
too many other people's thingsinstead of trying to figure out
(34:32):
what your thing is.
Speaker 2 (34:33):
Is there a process or a method that you try to use?
Use the people so that they canI think of Shakespeare, you
know to thine own self be true,to help a person figure out what
that self is and how to be trueto it.
Speaker 3 (34:52):
The answer is you know best, as I could generalize
is probably in the questionitself is a key word is truth.
I think probably one of theclearest things that an
entrepreneur can do and not onlyin business but in personal
life is just be truthful toyourself.
I mean, every time I've had thebiggest growth, professionally
(35:15):
and personally, is when I calledmyself out, and it's when it's
like, okay, maybe that's not thepath, and just having the
humility to go.
You know what I need to dosomething different, despite the
time I've invested or the moneyI've invested.
And it kind of goes back to thecomment before, that of other
people's ways are notnecessarily the right ways, and
(35:36):
so you've got to figure out,really, at the end of the day,
what matters to you.
For me, even though I have asuccessful business, I had an
interesting comment on amastermind about a year ago and
I got up and we were kind ofdoing this round table and
somebody said well, what tookyou so long?
You know, because I've hadagency for 17 years and and I
(35:58):
didn't start making millionsuntil after a decade.
You know, I was comfortable, Iwas making hundreds of thousands
, but they go.
Well, it took you so long and Inever thought about that.
I wasn't offended by thequestion, but I knew the answer.
It was just interesting to hearbecause I was intentional about
it.
But it was interesting to hearit externally.
And so, as my business grew, Inever wanted to do it at a speed
(36:21):
in which it would sacrifice mysanity, and so I certainly could
have got here a lot faster.
Zero question, that was apossibility, but at what expense
?
Right?
You know, I've been with mywife happily for 20 years.
Um, we have great relationshipswith all three of our kids.
I consistently take time off togo spend not only family time
but one-on-one time.
Um, I've never missed one of mykids basketball.
(36:42):
Consistently take time off togo spend not only family time
but one-on-one time.
I've never missed one of mykids' basketball games, soccer
games, my daughter's dancerecitals, and so back to one of
the comments you made at thebeginning about when you asked
me about a quote is I thoughtforward and put in the
sacrifices ahead of the thingsthat I was future pacing that
(37:03):
would matter to me.
Speaker 2 (37:07):
Boy, what profits a man if he gains the whole world
and loses his soul?
Right?
I always think of that as beinghow many people get to the end
of their life and go.
I was wrong.
It's hard to admit you're wrong.
So where do you see SEOs going?
I mean, is there a futurecasting that as quantum
(37:29):
computing comes online?
As I worry about the fact thatwe have so much realm of
alternative facts.
That to me, is like when I wasa kid, we called them lies.
You know, I don't know whathappened there, but you know as
the nature of reality changes,you know as the nature of what
(37:51):
is truth changes, which has beena philosophical argument for
thousands of years, right, butdo you think SEO, and perhaps
SEO combined with AI, can play apart in sifting and winnowing
what is true and what is not?
Speaker 3 (38:10):
That's a loaded question, I mean, yeah, there's
a lot to that.
So I think we could answer itin two different views.
One is how is SEO going toevolve from a business model?
Is SEO going to evolve from abusiness model?
And then the other is how isSEO, or search engines, going to
(38:31):
evolve from a societal lens?
Right?
So, on the business model, alot of people are calling
doomsday because of AI, and Ifound the opposite to be true.
Our businesses continue to growat a faster than usual pace,
because what's happening is it'sthe same old game of quality
(38:54):
versus quantity, and so what'shappening with AI is you can
certainly produce SEO quoteunquote assets at a more rapid
scale, but at the cost of whatquality?
And then the next argument I'mgoing to hear from somebody is
well, yeah, if you do it right,you should know the difference.
Well, I think every piece ofcontent that somebody's given me
(39:15):
that they claim to be qualityAI, I can still tell the
difference, and so you know.
You got to understand thatthere's a different level of
expertise and who's looking atthese content pieces, and the
reason why I mention that is notto say that I'm an expert at
understanding AI versus thisversus that, but if I can very
(39:35):
quickly identify an AI-producedpiece of content, google's
algorithms are infinitelysmarter than I am.
Google's algorithms areinfinitely smarter than I am.
And so we kind of did a littleA-B test where we said we kind
of crowdsourced the piece ofcontent because I was curious to
see what types of input I wouldget.
And we're consistently seeingthe quantity of AI-produced
(39:58):
content increase in thesecrowdsourced pieces of content,
and I can tell this by patterns.
And so one example is I asked anaudience.
I said hey, we have a clientthat works in a depression
therapy medical space and wewant to do a crowdsourced piece
of content on this very specificthing, topic related to
(40:19):
depression therapy.
And so I said if you want to befeatured, send me your best
piece of content on it.
And out of the five pieces ofcontent that I got, without even
running any sort of checkingtool, just at a first view
glance, I could see the patternsin the bullet points from five
(40:39):
different people who ran fivedifferent AI prompts who you
know quote unquote did qualitycontrol five different ways, and
I could immediately see thepatterns.
And so none of them knew theother person's submission or
anything like that, and so Ithink the difference in you know
.
So, then, one of the nextrebuttals I get is well, google
says that as long as it's valueadded, then they don't care if
(41:00):
it's human created or AI created.
Well, probably, rule number oneis do the opposite of everything
that Google ever says, becausethey don't.
You know, they're in it for abusiness model, and so what I've
found over the years is isoften they'll say one thing
while they're positioning on thebackend for another thing.
And to kind of bring this home,there was an algorithm update
(41:24):
way back in 2011 and 2012 calledGoogle Panda, and it focused on
unique content, and there wastools out there that you could
copy somebody's content and thenswap the paragraphs and
synonyms, and Google's algorithmcaught on to that pattern.
Well, ai in its current stateis largely just a more fancy
version, advanced version, ofthose content spinners.
(41:45):
I think the scale of AI contentjust caught Google off guard,
but I think they're going toclose that gap and come out with
an algorithm 2.0 on that, andwe'll see a big reckoning on AI
content, and I could add adifferent perspective.
I'll take a breather, though,on the value of human elements
and storytelling.
Speaker 2 (42:05):
Well, I think part of what I'm getting at too.
It got clarified for me as youtalked which is a good thing
tool for concretizing orsolidifying or entrenching
(42:25):
conformational biases which are,I think, inherently bad.
You know, I don't good and evilbad, but just bad from the
standpoint of a conformationalbias, if left unchallenged, if
left unbroken or at leastcracked open, shuts us down from
way too much.
Now are there biases that arejustified, of course.
(42:48):
Are there biases that have beenproven to be correct?
Or good things to be biasedabout Not walking around naked
through dangerous neighborhoodsor whatnot?
Yeah, of course that's a goodbias to have.
I'm not going to do that, it'snot safe.
But there are also ones thatare being fed by, you know, the
(43:09):
trolls of our society that Iwonder sometimes if SEOs could
be used as that same kind oftool to just entrench people
even further.
Do you think that's a realpossibility?
Do you think that's a realpossibility?
And if it is, is there a way?
Speaker 3 (43:37):
to break that cycle so that if we aren't getting too
entrenched, that the searchengine optimization would come
in and say, well, but there'salso this, and you know, keep
you from getting to the pointwhere you're, you know,
immovable.
Yeah, it already exists and ithas for a while.
Yeah, so you know, the firstanswer is from a business model
and then this is from thesocietal view, and so it's
already existed.
Because my goal as an SEO isdifferent than these shady guys
we're talking about, and I'llexplain the difference.
So my goal as an SEO is to workwith good businesses with good
(44:00):
products and services, and thenI can emphasize why they're good
with good products and services, and then I can emphasize why
they're good.
Now other SEOs whether it'spolitics or religion or
geopolitical things, they canuse the same structural and
(44:23):
tactical things that are usedfrom a business model to also
spread whatever information theywant to spread.
Now there's a minor scaleexample.
I think some people are going toalready be aware of this and
believe it, and there's going tobe other people that are going
to go no, I can always tell thedifference in between and have a
little bit of doubt.
One example is there's clientsthat we'll work with that are
(44:43):
not traditional SEO clients, andso these are what we call
reputation management clients.
And so these are clients thathave had.
You know, maybe 20 years agowhen they were young and naive
they did something stupid, andso now when you search that name
, then that's the thing thatcomes up that they're
(45:04):
embarrassed and they'veapologized for and they've paid
their dues.
Then there's ways that you cansuppress that content and you
suppress it by offsetting itwith positive content.
So you know, that's kind of thegray area where I give an
example, because it's notspreading misinformation but
again it's emphasizing.
You know are now as a, as a newand improved person, but you
(45:25):
can.
So that is a gray area example.
Then now you take that to the.
The really obvious negativeexample is like the geopolitical
things, and you can.
If we simplify this, at thebeginning of the chat we said
there's three main areas of seo.
One is your site structure.
Two is your content.
Three is your credibility.
So if I want to push outmisinformation that's really
(45:49):
well written on a website thatloads quickly and is mobile
friendly there's the first twobuckets then all I have to do is
boost its external credibilityand get other people talking
about it and, as soon as I can,get other websites to link to it
or get it to show up in thenews, then all of a sudden it
gets that credibility, which iswhat makes it show up higher on
search engines.
Now, anytime there's anelection, just go look at the
(46:14):
different types of people thatare showing up.
This doesn't have to be apresidential election.
It can even be on a smallercounty scale or state scale.
Who's going to win is theperson that hires an SEO company
and positions them higher,because when you're doing your
due diligence on somebody'squalifications, that person is
only going to push out the stuffthat sounds attractive to get
(46:34):
them voted.
Speaker 2 (46:36):
Getting ahead of what's going to be and what's
going to be wanted by people andmaking sure that you fill that
spot.
Is that Yep?
Speaker 3 (46:43):
exactly.
Speaker 2 (46:44):
Are there predictive models that are out there that
would be able to help a personstay ahead of that curve?
You know, I'm thinking of itfrom a business way, if you can
see the next big thing, is therea way to look at your?
I'm a big Star Trek fan and Ialways think of when you know
Star Trek, after it left as anoriginal series, kind of went
into limbo for a while and theytalked about bringing it back to
(47:05):
the animated series, which youknow largely.
People said, but they, you know, then they were going to do a
new series, a new series, a newseries, and it just kind of went
nowhere because they couldn'tget it figured out.
(47:27):
No-transcript, I just did alittle copy of Star Trek.
Are there particular things outthere that you think SEOs or
the kind of technology you'retalking about can help people to
get ahead and at least get aninkling of what it's going to be
and then figure out?
Do I fit in that in some way?
Or is there a way for what wedo to fill that next trend?
Speaker 3 (47:51):
I don't think that there's really.
I mean, it really boils down tocritical thinking.
Do you have the ability todistill information from fact or
fiction?
Ability to distill informationfrom fact or fiction?
And so it's like there's somequote along the lines where it's
easier to trick somebody thanto tell them they've been
(48:12):
tricked.
Speaker 2 (48:15):
Well, that goes for conformational bias too.
So gee whiz.
Speaker 3 (48:19):
It's easier for you to just execute a trick or a
bluff on somebody and neverbring it up, and then it's done
and you know it was truthbecause you did it, than it is
to go.
Did you know that you're wrongand I tricked you?
And then you get in this bigargument, right?
So it's like you can't arguewith stupid.
What's that?
Speaker 2 (48:37):
meme.
You can't argue with stupid.
They'll just wear you down totheir level and then beat you
with experience.
So I thought that's prettytelling.
So well, Damon, is thereanything that you want to make
sure that people get out ofhaving listened to Any like
distilled information you wantpeople to kind of think about?
(48:59):
If they've got a website,they're thinking about getting a
website, or whatever that theyshould maybe keep as a mantra as
they move ahead.
Speaker 3 (49:08):
Yeah, I can give an answer and a resource.
So you know, if you startexploring SEO, the main thing
that you want to look for inqualifying an agency to shop
around is transparency.
And so, as you ask them things,can they give you a clear
answer, not a vague answer.
Can they give you a clearanswer, not a vague answer?
And so one of the biggest redflags for me that I educate
people on is, if an SEO agencywhen you ask them how they do
(49:29):
those three categories structure, content, credibility if they
come back and they say the wordproprietary in any capacity,
then just run as fast as you can, because all SEOs have access
to very similar tools.
It's just who knows how to usethe data within them the best,
and so there's lots of thingslike that.
So what I can leave the audiencewith is I wrote a book about
(49:50):
things like that Like what doyou ask in the agency?
How do you make sure you don'tget ripped off?
How do you understand what goesinto the investment of this and
the time and the cost and whattype of payoff it is?
So if you just go toDamonBurtoncom, on there there's
a free copy, pdf, no upsell,nothing, it's just there for the
taking.
Speaker 2 (50:06):
Just kind of a roadmap for how to go about
doing it, isn't it?
So I actually went in andsigned up for it.
So I got my PDF copy and Ican't wait to read it now,
especially after talking.
So, folks, my guest today hasbeen Damon Burton.
Damon is a husband and fatherof three.
I think that's probably one ofyour number one job, right
Overall it's being a husband andfather.
But he has a corner on themarket.
(50:29):
I'm going to say you've got acorner on the market of what's a
really smart way to do an SEO.
That is not something you hearoften around these days.
Not that there aren't smartSEOs, but his narrative if you
go back and want to listen againor tell friends to come listen
to it with you there are somereal nuggets of just common
sense.
I think.
Ultimately, damon is what I'mgetting out of things, but
(50:51):
there's also a sense of altruismthat can be monetized and you
don't, you know, I think there's.
I don't know that you have tohave either money or happiness.
You can have both and have, youknow both, a sense of doing
something intrinsically good andextrinsically good at the same
time.
So I thank you for your time.
Really, it's been a pleasuregetting to talk to you.
(51:12):
Hopefully maybe we'll get totalk again at some point in the
future.
That'd be fantastic.
So folks have been listening toProfiles in Leadership,
otherwise known as Frame ofReference.
I'm Raoul LaRouche, damon,thanks again, hope to talk to
you again sometime.
Take care, pleasure.
Thank you.
Welcome to Frame of Reference informed, intelligent
conversations about the issuesand challenges facing everyone
in today's world.
In-depth interviews to help youexpand and inform your frame of
reference.
Now here's your host, raoulLabrèche.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Well, welcome everybody to another edition of
Frame of Reference, profiles inLeadership.
I waited there to see if Icould remember and if you would
think I was not rememberingwhich I hope you were, because I
wasn't remembering thatProfiles in Leadership was part
of my title, which is a bad sign.
But it's late in the day on aWednesday, so I'm going to ask
my listeners to please cut mesome slack and I know that my
(00:42):
guests will, because I'vealready just been talking with
him a little bit and today'sguest, damon Burton, is one of
the more laid-back guests.
I've gotten that vibe rightaway.
He's just laid-back, he's gotguitars on his wall.
I mean, this is a person thatjust knows how to kind of, you
know, do the 1950s beatnik thingand, just, you know, snap
fingers and feel like dude, it'sall right, just chill, just let
(01:05):
the world, let life happen,baby.
Okay, right, damon, am Ireading that right?
Speaker 3 (01:10):
Totally, totally.
Yeah, Congratulations onremembering the name of your
show.
Give you kudos for that.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Thank you for that.
I need the accolades thatreally do, the positive
affirmation of people sayingit's okay to be old and
forgetful.
As I tell friends of mine, Ihave some timers, sometimes I
remember, sometimes I don't.
But Damon is a husband, afather of three, and he beat a
billion-dollar company byoutranking their website on
(01:38):
Google and from then on herealized he was on to something
here and went on to build aninternational search engine
marketing company that's workedwith Inc 5000, shark Tank,
featured businesses alike.
So we're going to be talking SEOtoday, folks, search engine
optimization.
So if you've got a website, ifyou're thinking about having a
website, if you're thinkingabout just you know, wanting to
(01:59):
explore what it takes to makethe web work and what makes a
site popular, damon's your man.
He's going to be answering someof those questions and a lot
more.
And what I love the most aboutit is you're also kind of the
epitome of an entrepreneur.
You have an idea, you gave it atry, gave it a whirl and it
(02:20):
took off right and the processhas proved itself over time.
So I'm really excited to talkabout it.
I think that's just a greatjourney story, if nothing else.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
So yeah well, there's a lot of truth to that.
And then I mean, if we want tobe dramatic, of course I'm a
theater guy, come on, yeah.
So well then let me give youthe little background right
before I decided to give SEO awhirl and see if it was my jam.
So my background was originallyin web design, and the way that
(02:52):
I got into web design isbecause I was into cars, and so
I started a car enthusiastwebsite, and as that started to
grow, I said, well, how do Imake this better?
And so that's how I started tofall into design.
And then I said, how do Imonetize this?
And that's how I started tofall into marketing.
So then I did design on theside after I picked up that
little bit of skill set.
So that's where the side hustlecomes in that a lot of us
(03:12):
entrepreneurs have.
But the sensationalized parthappens when, so in addition to
that, I had the day job and Iworked remotely from home for a
company in Vegas.
One day I couldn't get a holdof anybody at the day job, and
so this was before Slack and, ifyou remember, aol Instant
Messenger, and so I was tryingto get a hold of the team that
way and all of a sudden somebodywrites me back and says did you
(03:33):
hear what happened?
And I said, no, what's going on?
I can't get a hold of anybody.
Well, come to find out, thecompany got raided by the ATF
and the FTC guns blazing moviescene and the business got shut
down.
So then I had a choice to make,which was see if I still had a
job.
So I had three choices See if Ihad a job.
Two, go find a new job.
(03:55):
Or three, bet on myself.
And so that's the moment whereI said okay, let's give
entrepreneurship a try.
And then you know, the rest ishistory.
There's a couple of things inbetween there.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
That's pretty wild.
That's the classic cruciblestory of the bird getting just
pushed out of the nest andeither fly or, you know, hit the
ground and go splat right atthat point.
That's fantastic.
Well, one of the things.
I warned you about this aheadof time, damon, I like to start
out with a little bit of myfavorite things.
Deal, rorschachian, totally,you can say something, you say
(04:28):
whatever comes to mind.
If you need to retract, I'mokay with that too.
Don't feel like, oh no, blue, Idon't like blue, I like red.
That's totally fine.
There's no censorship eitherway.
But I'll try to make this asfun as possible.
It's an opportunity for you andI to find out more about each
other.
So because I'll pipe into it.
So how about your favoritecomfort food?
Speaker 3 (04:52):
That's a Pandora's box, because I got an autoimmune
condition a couple years ago.
Oh, that's put me on a rollercoaster of what I can and can't
have.
So my favorite food is anythingthat I can eat that tastes good
and doesn't hurt me.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
That sounds like that's a pretty high bar, though
, actually for you to have toget through.
So my wife has immune disordersof that nature to autoimmune
things.
Hers tend to be more justphysical incapacitation on
things.
Hers tend to be more justphysical incapacitation on
things, but her joints are beingattacked by one particular
(05:30):
thing.
So autoimmune disorders are alot more prevalent than I think
most people realize.
I'm sorry Boy.
If I had found out that I had adisorder that said, okay, can't
have any more pizza orsomething, I'd be like what?
That's what happened.
Yeah, how about your favoritebook?
Speaker 3 (05:54):
There's two that come to mind because it had a big
impact on my business velocity.
I was reading Four HourWorkweek and E-Myth Revisited in
a similar time frame, and Ithink a combination of those two
is why I always think about it,because if you're familiar with
them, e-myth Revisited tellsyou how to build a business
that's dependent on processesand not people, so you don't
(06:14):
lose the talent as they come andgo.
And then 4-Hour Workweekteaches you how to cut corners,
and the interesting combinationof reading those in a similar
time frame is, I realized, well,you shouldn't cut corners until
you know what your processesare, because then you don't know
what's at stake.
So I always think of those twokind of at the same time.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
Okay, so really fundamental principles that you
were able to apply to just aboutany business, right?
So fantastic.
How about do you have afavorite?
Speaker 3 (06:41):
Let's kind of simply do you have a favorite bird?
Speaker 2 (06:46):
I know nothing about birds, nothing, not even a raven
or a crow or a pigeon.
Speaker 3 (06:51):
The colors of them and the general shapes.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
No ornithology from you.
That's fine.
Do you have a favorite guitar?
We're going to put you on thespot here now Of those two
guitars is there a favorite Ihave to give the story of the
guitar.
That's okay, you's okay, no oneelse does.
Speaker 3 (07:12):
it's okay, I'll pretend it's brand new to me too
.
Okay, so I have guitars in thebackground if you're listening
to this just on audio.
And so what happened was, um,I've always enjoyed music and
followed it into radio, so I didon air and radio for nearly a
decade, and when the pandemichit, I thought, okay, maybe this
is an opportunity for things toslow down and I'm going to pick
up the guitar.
(07:32):
And so I purchased guitars andwas ready to rock and roll, and
then business just shot upliterally within a week.
So I bought the guitars.
You know, the second week ofMarch 2020 when everybody went,
well, something's happening thisweek, so I bought the guitars.
You know, the second week ofMarch 2020, when everybody went,
whoa, something's happeningthis week.
And then I had, like, oneclient cancel and I said, okay,
maybe this is a sign ofsomething to come.
And and then about four dayslater, business just started
(07:55):
doubling and so I had about afour day window to learn guitar.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
And they're sitting there.
They're back there sittingthere, dude, you know we're
still waiting, so whenever youfeel like doing it, we're here
to play with you.
Okay, you have a tuner too,right?
You don't have a, you can'teven.
Speaker 3 (08:10):
I'll pick them up and I'll tune them and then I'll
extrav for 10 minutes and thenthey go back.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
Yeah, that's better than some people do.
Mine haven't been tuned in awhile and I got a lot of excuses
and no good ones.
Speaker 3 (08:26):
How about?
Do you have a favorite quote,damon?
I could probably give an answeron that one.
Yeah, grant Cardone said andI'm not like a diehard Grant
Cardone fan, but he had a quotethat I found interesting, and it
is along the lines of pay theprice today so you can pay any
price tomorrow.
And so I remember in my earlyentrepreneur days I've had the
agency for 17 years and I'vealso been married for 17 years.
(08:48):
I've been with my wife for 20years, and so we waited five
years before we had kids, and soI had like this year or two
window of having already beenmarried but not having kids yet.
But the business started.
And so I remember thinking backto that timeframe before I
heard the quote, thinking thatsimilar concept where it's like,
(09:10):
you know, I need to really putin the time now so I don't have
to later.
And so when I heard that quoteyears later, it really resonated
to me about the choices I madeearly in entrepreneurship to
kind of pay that sacrifice tobuy the freedom later.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Sure, Isn't it interesting too, as we look back
on our lives and you see thingsthat at the time this has been
my experience at least that youlook back and think boy, that
was really hard at the time, butnow, having all that time
afterwards, I look that wasreally important, that I went
through, that I'm really, youknow, start to embrace those
things, I think, in some ways.
Speaker 3 (09:43):
So I was going to add on what you just said.
Yeah Is that you do it longenough and it actually becomes
appealing, and so when you runinto these struggles, you're
like cool, there's something onthe other side of this.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
Yeah, yeah, Very much .
So how about do you have afavorite sweater or a favorite
piece of clothing that just youwhen you put it on?
Or you need lucky slippers, youknow that kind of thing that
just you when you put it on, oryou need?
Speaker 3 (10:05):
lucky slippers, you know that kind of thing.
So, um, uh, I I have one of myown company hoodies that is
particularly comfortable, that Ienjoy and seems to just fit
right, and I'm not a swag guyeither, okay.
So, um, I was really hesitantto buy anything with our company
branding on it, and but when,when we got it, we did it for a
team get together and thingslike that, and it was just one
(10:28):
of those things that just fitjust right.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
Okay, do you have a let's talk mode of
transportation?
Do you have a favorite type oftransportation that you like to?
If you have an opportunity todo this or another in kind that
you would always go, I'll takethe boat or whatever another in
kind that you would always go,I'll take the boat or whatever.
Speaker 3 (10:51):
I'll be probably biased on this one because
historically in general.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
I don't have favorites, raul, you just take
life.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
As it happens, I get it.
But I can give an answer tothis one because over the years,
as I was fortunate to establishsome reasonable success, I've
never really been amaterialistic guy.
So all the money has kind ofgone back into the company, or
it's gone into what I callmemories and legacy, and so it
always goes back into what areopportunities for my wife and
(11:16):
kids.
And so we travel a lot and webought a pool for the kids and
things like that.
So I've never really rewardedmyself.
We bought a pool for the kidsand things like that, so I've
never really rewarded myself.
And so over the years, you gothrough the thoughts of well, if
I were to reward myself, whatdo I really care about?
And so I went through the,however, long time frame almost
(11:40):
seemed like a mini midlifecrisis of do I buy a watch that
I don't?
Speaker 2 (11:41):
really care for.
Like something inside tells meI need to buy a Rolex.
Yeah, I just need more stuff.
Yeah, good stuff, so I need tobuy a Rolex.
Speaker 3 (11:46):
Yeah, I just need more stuff.
Yeah, good stuff.
So I finally settled on a carand so I just recently bought an
Audi R8.
And so that's been fun to driveand the kids enjoy it.
And what I enjoy most aboutacquiring the car that was
unexpected is the conversationsthat it invites that was
unexpected is the conversationsthat it invites.
(12:08):
And so you get these people thatwill literally come up to you
at gas stations and stoplightswithout words and saying you
know, this is my favorite car,but I've never seen one in real
life.
Or I get text messages from theneighbors saying can you take
my kid for a ride?
They have a poster of that caron the wall and so it's really
cool kind of seeing theconversations that have come
from since acquiring that.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
Cool.
It makes me think of thatSeinfeld show, was it or who is
it that does the two comics in acar having coffee, so, or what?
Not Something like that?
So I thought you know what aninteresting concept to have.
And they always have reallyinteresting conversations, which
I hope they're not scripted.
And they always have reallyinteresting conversations which
I hope they're not scripted.
They sure don't sound like theyare so well, that actually ties
(12:48):
to what I usually use as a finalquestion is do you have a and
it doesn't necessarily have tobe your favorite one but do you
have a memory or a life eventthat happened to you that when
you run across things inday-to-day life, that, if it's,
it might be a smell or it mightbe a you know particular
painting sometimes that peoplewill talk about, but when you
(13:10):
see it or you experience itagain, it brings you back to
that and there's an experiencethere that either a memory or
it's a, just a feeling that itevokes in you.
Um, that you really find is, uh, you're happy when those
moments happen because they kindof they recenter us, I think,
in a way.
Speaker 3 (13:27):
Well, between now and seeing your beautiful face for
the first time 10 minutes ago isalways Raul, is is the epitome
of happiness.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
Yeah, so actually oh boy, there you go.
You're lathering it on there,Damon.
Speaker 3 (13:46):
My office.
So my office is, um, you know,I work at home and so it's it's
in the basement, but it's midground level.
So, um, my office window, thefloor of my office, is three,
four feet underground, but thewindow is a foot above ground.
And so I can, you know, in thesummer my kids are running
around the backyard and playingaround, and so I remember, a
(14:09):
couple of years ago they'd playhide and go seek, and so they'd
always cheat, they'd knock on mywindow and go dad, can I sneak
in the office?
And so, um, I eventually put ina magnetic screen so I could
just open the screen.
And I remember one time, play,you know, going out and playing
with them, and I had juststopped in the middle of the
(14:31):
work and, um, and I rememberwalking out thinking, uh, it was
just one of those moments whereI was like, you know, I just I
just walked away from businessand everything's fine and
everything's going to be fine,and so it was kind of like a
moment of peace of mind, and so,where I'm still in the office
and the window is still there,and you know, that kind of comes
(14:51):
to mind pretty often.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
That's cool.
Yeah, there are.
What is it?
They say You'll you'll never,at the moment of our death,
we'll never be sorry that wespent too much time with our
family, you know, with thepeople we love the most, which
is, you know, the big regret isI didn't right.
So well, thank you for that.
That's a wonderful memory.
I'm going to remember thatmyself as being a thing that I'm
(15:16):
happy someone had thatexperience.
So so we'll segue into yourbusiness, as you've alluded to.
So was search engineoptimization.
Was SEO something that was onyour radar, that you had an idea
for and you wanted to exploreit or, I guess, explain even if
people don't know that marketingterm or that technology how you
(15:40):
looked at SEO before, what youridea was for SEO and how you
see it being optimized or howyou're trying to use it in a
unique way.
Speaker 3 (15:49):
Yeah, so SEO stands for search engine optimization.
Your goal is to show up higheron search engines for words that
you could monetize, but you doit without paid ads, and so you
do it by improving thecredibility of your website, and
so it positions higher thannatural results.
So it was not on my radar inthe slightest.
The way that I got into it isyou know, I briefly touched on
(16:11):
earlier about how I built a carenthusiast website and that's
how I developed the skillset.
And then I eventually kind ofcame to, I think you said, the
crucible moment where it's likeokay, I need to decide if I'm
going to go get another job oror lean into my side hustle.
And so my side hustle at thetime was web design clients, not
SEO.
And what had happened was one ofthose design clients said what
(16:33):
do you know about Google?
And I said I know enough that Ithink I can help you, but not
enough that I feel confident incharging you for it.
But I also don't want to workfor free.
So what I negotiated with themas I presented an offer and I
said well, how about I do workfor free up until we hit these
mutually agreed upon goals?
(16:53):
And if we hit them, then youowe me retroactively and we
start a retainer.
So they didn't have anything tolose.
It either didn't work and itwas free, or it worked and, and
then they got an ROI out of it.
And then that way I also feltcomfortable because I was
dabbling in it, so I didn't havethe guilt of charging them for
(17:14):
something that didn't have aclear path on.
But I was also incentivized forit to be successful, and so we
ended up hitting those goalswithin a couple months.
And then I was able to takethat concept from client number
one to another client that hadactually introduced each other.
So I said hey, I just did thisfor the other guys.
Do you want the samearrangement?
Don't pay me anything.
I'm kind of liking this.
(17:35):
Let me see if it works.
And I was able to hit thosegoals with client number two.
So at that moment I said youknow, I know that I don't want
to be an agency that offers atall.
So let's see if SEO issomething that holds my interest
and I can be successful at itand drive a return for clients.
Speaker 2 (17:53):
And it turned out to be that it was.
Well, it's a.
It strikes me that it's aphenomenally complex thing in
one realm and a very simplething in another realm, I mean
in terms of the.
I'm struggling with this, but Iknow there's so many different
factors or so many things thatyou're trying to, you know, sift
through and get through inorder to get your thing.
(18:14):
But if you're simple about whatit is that you're trying to
capture in those things, to meit's kind of like a filter.
You know, as long as you havethe right things in your filter,
then you just have to have asuccessful means of casting that
rod and getting it.
Am I oversimplifying it, or isthat kind of the?
Speaker 3 (18:33):
I am actually really fascinated in your comment
because you're the first personthat has ever actually nailed it
, and so usually it's like allon the other side of complexity.
And so there is truth thatthere's a lot of things to SEO,
but what happens with otheragencies, or the clients of
agencies, or the dialoguebetween the client and agency,
(18:54):
is where it gets complicated isthey're trying to look for
loopholes in the algorithms andthey're trying to cut corners.
And so, instead of trying tocut corners on this large
quantity of things, you distillit down to three simple
perspectives.
And so what you do when youtake those three, those three,
(19:16):
we'll call them buckets, right?
And so bucket number one isyour website structure, and so
it's things like does it loadquickly, is it mobile friendly?
Is it a good user experience?
That's not a complicatedconcept.
So then the second bucket iscontent.
You can only show up on Googlefor what Google can read.
Do you communicate yourproducts and services?
Do you communicate your valuepropositions?
Also not a complicated concept.
(19:36):
And so then your third categoryis external credibility.
Do other people talk about yourbrand?
Do they link to your website?
Do you have positive reviews?
So all of the components, we'llsay there's thousands of things
that you can monitor, measure,do for SEO.
All of them fall into one ofthose three buckets, and so if
you just focus on those, thenyou don't get lost in shiny
(20:00):
object syndrome, you don't getobsessed over algorithms, and if
you just stick to thosefundamentals.
In fact, when algorithms rollout, our clients have never got
a penalty, because we're notgaming the system and instead
they're either maybe neutral,but generally positive on the
other side of these algorithms,when everybody else is panicking
because Google caught up to thepattern of them trying to
(20:22):
manipulate the system.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
Sure.
Well, it sounds to me too thatit really puts the onus on your
customers to determine andreally figure out what do they
want to be known for.
You know what is the we used tosay in my day?
You know, the proof has to bein the pudding.
So it's one thing to kind ofsee yourself as one thing, but
(20:45):
you have to also be able todeliver on that.
I don't know why, but I'mthinking of you know who I
thought I was when I got marriedand who my wife has, you know,
saw me as, and now who I havebecome as time went by and she
said, yeah, no, that's not you.
If that was you, then this youknow.
So I've had to redefine myselfover and over and say, yeah, no,
(21:05):
I do want to be what that isthat I portrayed myself as.
So I've got to make some shiftshere in order to really be that
, so that I'm not I think whatyou're saying I'm not gaming the
system, I'm not trying to gameher.
Is that a process that you'reable to help people kind of do
that sifting and winnowing oftheir persona, their brand, if
(21:26):
you will?
Speaker 3 (21:27):
Yeah.
So it's a little bit of both onthe client side and then the
agency side.
So ideally on the client sidethey have enough clarity in the
product or service that theyoffer that they can go.
Hey, seo is a long-term play,so I'm confident enough in the
general path that I can committo that long-term timeframe and
not pivot later and waste allthat time in between.
Now do you have to have itperfected?
(21:50):
No, you should have a proof ofconcept and then the SEO agency
should be able to go.
Okay, cool.
Well, now we can take andreverse engineer the competition
and so you can then look at allsorts of tools out there that
go.
What are?
What are your customers askingabout Google already about this
product or service?
So then you start to align thegap between the buyer intent,
(22:11):
the pain points they have in theproduct and service that you
offer.
So you should have some clarityon what you either want Like
you said, you know you're kindof future pacing yourself what
do you ultimately want to beknown for, or what can you
ultimately monetize the most inthe long term?
And then that's where theagency can go.
Okay, cool, now that I knowwhat your vision is, then I can
(22:32):
align everything else in between.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
Is there a process in there at all where the I guess
I'll call it a gut check, whereyou say, okay, this is what you,
what you're trying to get into,but is that really who you are?
Speaker 3 (22:46):
Yeah, I mean, that happens all the time.
So, like when we start digginginto the data, what I tell
clients is we try to remove theemotions.
So my job is not to tell youthe target or phrase that you
can monetize that feels good.
Mine is the my my job is todrive a return for you, and
often I have to tell you you'rewrong, and part of that is you
(23:07):
know, because the data over heresays no, and I can actually
give you an example.
So one of our first clientswho's still with us, it's one of
those two clients I mentioned.
So they've still been with usfor 17 years and it's an
electronics manufacturingcompany and so before we started
working with them, they doprinted circuit board assembly.
So the keyword is assembly atthe end, because you can have
(23:31):
printed circuit board companiesand then there's assembly
companies and what thedifference is is one of them
makes the circuit boards.
So you know, for the layman'sterm it looks like a big
microchip kind of thing and theygo into electronics.
Now what was happening beforethey came to us is they were
spending 80% of their budget ontargeting printed circuit boards
.
They don't sell printed circuitboards.
(23:53):
Somebody else makes them,delivers it to them, and then
they do what's called the finalproduct assembly, the final box
assembly, and so they werespending 80% of their budget,
80% of their time on somethingthey literally don't even offer.
But it really makes sense whythey thought they should target
that.
And so what you want to do islook at it and go, okay, we
don't want the thing that hasthe most volume, we want the
thing that has the most relevant, and then if it also has high
(24:18):
volume, then that's just a bonus.
So do you ultimately want 7 in10 visitors to buy your thing,
or 1 in 10,000?
I want the 7.
Right?
Speaker 2 (24:25):
right.
It's kind of an 80-20 principle, isn't it?
That you do need to spend the80% of your time on the 20%
that's really profitable, kind,so kind of thing, instead of the
other way around, which is kindof you know, this big net,
that's all.
Well, we could be this and wecould be that, we could be the
other thing, and it's like, yeah, but that's irrelevant, that's
not you and that's taking timeand energy away from stuff that
(24:53):
is you.
So how do you do that?
I mean, how does a multi?
I mean one of the things youhave here is how do I build a
multimillion-dollar businesswithout any advertising, which
does seem like total?
I mean, that's like heresy,right?
I mean there are probably.
If there's advertising, peoplelistening, they're going you're
an idiot, kind of thing, right?
I mean it's just yeah.
Speaker 3 (25:10):
Well, that opens up a different topic.
So you know, ironically, forrunning a marketing agency, we
don't do any marketing ourselves, and so we do the basics of the
product that we offer toourselves.
But I'll tell you why we don'tdo it aggressively.
So you know, as an SEO agency,the last thing I want to rank
for on Google is the word SEO,and the reason why is just what
(25:34):
we talked about you know, thePrinted Circuit Board Assembly
example Because there's twoproblems with an SEO agency
trying to target the word SEO.
One is that SEO, what are youtrying to learn it?
You know, are you trying tohire an agency?
Are you trying to DIY done foryou Whatever Right?
There's a million differentunqualified sources of leads
(25:55):
related to the word SEO, andthat's not where I want to spend
my time, on unqualified leads.
The other reason is probably99% of people searching the word
SEO are other SEO companiestrying to rank for SEO, seeing
if they rank for SEO, and so Idon't want to show up for these
other agencies.
So, with that being said, whatwe don't do for ourselves, we
(26:20):
don't do anything.
So I don't have an email list,we don't do any paid ads, I
don't have a funnel.
I don't have any outbound salesmechanism, but we have
consistently done multiplemillions for years and the
source of sales comes from onlytwo places.
Now, for the first decade ofthe business, it was purely
referrals.
You dial in a good product,deliver a good service, and then
(26:46):
people let you into their innercircle.
You get access to people thatyou wouldn't have otherwise.
Then, a couple years ago, Istarted being more present on
social media.
A quick background story is Iused to have a real hard line.
I used to only use Facebook,and I still primarily only do.
But I had a hard line where itwas just for personal use and so
(27:10):
if a lead or a client wouldmessage me, I would just ignore
them and eventually, because Iwanted that, that was kind of my
you know my space, right, thatwas a way to detach, and so
eventually what I did is I wasreally good about filtering the
content, so it wasn't dramaticor anything.
I just realized one day it wasunproductive and so I shut it
(27:32):
down.
Now, if you know anything aboutFacebook, if you delete it it
doesn't really go away.
You can just log back in thenext day.
So what I did is I starteddeleting all my content.
I'm like, if I'm going todelete this, I'm going to truly
delete it.
So I started deletingeverything and it was taken
forever.
And so I asked my wife and shegets all the credit because she
(27:53):
spent like three weeks deletingevery post I'd ever made,
deleting every comment I'd madeon other people's walls, and
then, in a true testament to thestrength of your relationship
is I gave her access to myprivate messages.
Oh my Lord.
So what had happened is shewent through and just wiped
everything out.
Now, how this comes back aroundis, once everything was deleted,
(28:17):
I had one client who gotthrough that filter.
They were a friend first, andso that's how they were already
engaging me and then, now that Iwiped it out, that was kind of
our communications platform.
And when I got thinking, if I'mgoing to turn this back on, I
don't want to turn it on forjust that, I want to be
intentional about it.
And so then, when I turned itback on, I said the first thing
(28:39):
I said is you know who the heckare the 1500 people that I used
to have as contacts, because Ican only think of 20 of them now
.
And then I started going well,how do I share business and
entrepreneurship and SEO relatedcontent without boring my
friends and family, whohistorically were my only
audience?
And then, on the other side, howdo I continue to talk about my
(29:00):
appreciation for my wife andkids without boring a business
audience?
And I finally just said, Idon't care, because those are
both me and we'll kind of figureit out as we go and figure out
what my voice is.
And as I started publishingthat content, um, coming full
circle to the source of leads is, after about three months I
started to notice I was gettingsome reasonable engagement.
(29:20):
After about six months Istarted to go oh, I think I've
actually had a few deals fromthis.
And then, at about the ninemonth mark, I quantified it and
it added $150,000 in annualrecurring contracts.
And so at that point I said,okay, well, this is obviously
working and let's reverseengineer the components of this
that are working and then figureout how to scale this as an
(29:41):
actual business model.
And so back to the originalquestion is you know, we built a
multimillion-dollar businesspurely off of a good product
deliverable, and my social mediacontent is me sharing why it's
a good product deliverable.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
Content is me sharing why it's a good product
deliverable.
Isn't that interesting too?
By by not trying to make a buck, you actually made a bunch of
bucks.
So that was a.
That's an interesting reapingand sowing principle that you
were, you were caring for I.
I I've worked in a company thatservices farmers a lot in rural
(30:19):
Wisconsin areas and there's alot of focus there on just
helping those people that arejust working hard to feed the
rest of us.
You know, when it comes rightdown to it and I kind of see
some parallels in what you'retalking about you know you're
just working hard to dosomething of quality for people
(30:39):
that will help them and that hasnot only intrinsic, I think,
rewards.
You know, personally, when I'vedone that kind of thing, you
always feel that sense of ah, Idid some good today.
But there's also the you knowthe culmination of how that
trickles down right to all kindsof other people Do you oh sorry
, go ahead, we must be businessspirit animals.
Speaker 3 (31:01):
Because you know you're right, Like that's why I
started doing it was just, itfelt good.
And then, as I got into thebunts down the road and I
noticed I could quantify it,then that's when I said well,
great, now it's the best of bothworlds, because if I do this at
scale, I can continue to helppeople and get that personal
reward.
And then if I can also use thisas a business model, then then
why not?
(31:21):
No?
great example is this morning Idid a two hour presentation.
So I my contractual rate is athousand dollars an hour.
So if you want to hire me as aconsultant, I charge a thousand
bucks.
But I do presentations for freeall the time because I enjoy
helping other aspiringentrepreneurs, I enjoy helping
(31:42):
newbie businesses becomeestablished businesses and
there's a personal reward factor.
And so I think it's importantfor entrepreneurs to kind of
look at that parallel or thatjuxtaposition, because I think
sometimes we get stuck if it'slike one or the other Like I
need to be the cheap guy or Ineed to be the expensive guy,
(32:02):
and you can be whatever it is,as long as you define the
context.
So for me I'm the reallyexpensive guy and less I want to
help you because I think youwon't waste my time.
Speaker 2 (32:08):
Interesting.
Um, so I I keep thinking ofthis question and I'm not sure
I'm going to ask it the way itreally is inside of me, but here
I'm going to go, I'm going todive in here.
Is there an attitude shift or acharacter shift that you think
(32:28):
needs to happen in businessesthat are not performing as well
as they potentially could byadopting, you know, more of a
methodology that you're tryingto build with your clients?
Is there a?
Do we have to let go ofsomething that is so entrenched
(32:49):
in you know, contemporaryAmerican capitalism, you know in
the free enterprise system?
Do we have to let go of someyou know widely held and deeply
held, you know maxim, or youknow belief, in order to make
this work?
Does that make sense?
Speaker 3 (33:06):
Yeah, I think I think directly.
There's a different answer fordirectly and a different answer
for indirectly.
So, do we direct?
Is there something veryspecific for us to false belief
to shed?
I think that depends.
I don't think there's auniversal one, but indirectly
probably something.
Yeah, because the majority of usthink, especially when you're
(33:29):
newer in entrepreneurship, youalways think you have to be this
mega company or follow the megacompany's ways and or
somebody's ways.
Right, you follow somebodyonline and and so, but?
But where the gap in between isthe person you follow online.
The reason why they'resuccessful is not because they
do the same thing that the otherperson does, is because they
(33:50):
were dramatically different thaneverybody else, which rose them
to the spotlight.
And so I think there's that,that middle ground where we see
the success and we misinterprethow they got there.
The misinterpretation is thatwe need to copy that one.
Instead it's we need to do theopposite.
We need to do whatever ourunique value proposition is or
(34:11):
our unique story is, or you know, my model is probably the worst
idea for somebody else, right?
And so it's like, just becauseI'm saying it works for me
doesn't mean you should dropeverything and go follow it, and
that's that's probably what alot of us do too often is is try
too many other people's thingsinstead of trying to figure out
(34:32):
what your thing is.
Speaker 2 (34:33):
Is there a process or a method that you try to use?
Use the people so that they canI think of Shakespeare, you
know to thine own self be true,to help a person figure out what
that self is and how to be trueto it.
Speaker 3 (34:52):
The answer is you know best, as I could generalize
is probably in the questionitself is a key word is truth.
I think probably one of theclearest things that an
entrepreneur can do and not onlyin business but in personal
life is just be truthful toyourself.
I mean, every time I've had thebiggest growth, professionally
(35:15):
and personally, is when I calledmyself out, and it's when it's
like, okay, maybe that's not thepath, and just having the
humility to go.
You know what I need to dosomething different, despite the
time I've invested or the moneyI've invested.
And it kind of goes back to thecomment before, that of other
people's ways are notnecessarily the right ways, and
(35:36):
so you've got to figure out,really, at the end of the day,
what matters to you.
For me, even though I have asuccessful business, I had an
interesting comment on amastermind about a year ago and
I got up and we were kind ofdoing this round table and
somebody said well, what tookyou so long?
You know, because I've hadagency for 17 years and and I
(35:58):
didn't start making millionsuntil after a decade.
You know, I was comfortable, Iwas making hundreds of thousands
, but they go.
Well, it took you so long and Inever thought about that.
I wasn't offended by thequestion, but I knew the answer.
It was just interesting to hearbecause I was intentional about
it.
But it was interesting to hearit externally.
And so, as my business grew, Inever wanted to do it at a speed
(36:21):
in which it would sacrifice mysanity, and so I certainly could
have got here a lot faster.
Zero question, that was apossibility, but at what expense
?
Right?
You know, I've been with mywife happily for 20 years.
Um, we have great relationshipswith all three of our kids.
I consistently take time off togo spend not only family time
but one-on-one time.
Um, I've never missed one of mykids basketball.
(36:42):
Consistently take time off togo spend not only family time
but one-on-one time.
I've never missed one of mykids' basketball games, soccer
games, my daughter's dancerecitals, and so back to one of
the comments you made at thebeginning about when you asked
me about a quote is I thoughtforward and put in the
sacrifices ahead of the thingsthat I was future pacing that
(37:03):
would matter to me.
Speaker 2 (37:07):
Boy, what profits a man if he gains the whole world
and loses his soul?
Right?
I always think of that as beinghow many people get to the end
of their life and go.
I was wrong.
It's hard to admit you're wrong.
So where do you see SEOs going?
I mean, is there a futurecasting that as quantum
(37:29):
computing comes online?
As I worry about the fact thatwe have so much realm of
alternative facts.
That to me, is like when I wasa kid, we called them lies.
You know, I don't know whathappened there, but you know as
the nature of reality changes,you know as the nature of what
(37:51):
is truth changes, which has beena philosophical argument for
thousands of years, right, butdo you think SEO, and perhaps
SEO combined with AI, can play apart in sifting and winnowing
what is true and what is not?
Speaker 3 (38:10):
That's a loaded question, I mean, yeah, there's
a lot to that.
So I think we could answer itin two different views.
One is how is SEO going toevolve from a business model?
Is SEO going to evolve from abusiness model?
And then the other is how isSEO, or search engines, going to
(38:31):
evolve from a societal lens?
Right?
So, on the business model, alot of people are calling
doomsday because of AI, and Ifound the opposite to be true.
Our businesses continue to growat a faster than usual pace,
because what's happening is it'sthe same old game of quality
(38:54):
versus quantity, and so what'shappening with AI is you can
certainly produce SEO quoteunquote assets at a more rapid
scale, but at the cost of whatquality?
And then the next argument I'mgoing to hear from somebody is
well, yeah, if you do it right,you should know the difference.
Well, I think every piece ofcontent that somebody's given me
(39:15):
that they claim to be qualityAI, I can still tell the
difference, and so you know.
You got to understand thatthere's a different level of
expertise and who's looking atthese content pieces, and the
reason why I mention that is notto say that I'm an expert at
understanding AI versus thisversus that, but if I can very
(39:35):
quickly identify an AI-producedpiece of content, google's
algorithms are infinitelysmarter than I am.
Google's algorithms areinfinitely smarter than I am.
And so we kind of did a littleA-B test where we said we kind
of crowdsourced the piece ofcontent because I was curious to
see what types of input I wouldget.
And we're consistently seeingthe quantity of AI-produced
(39:58):
content increase in thesecrowdsourced pieces of content,
and I can tell this by patterns.
And so one example is I asked anaudience.
I said hey, we have a clientthat works in a depression
therapy medical space and wewant to do a crowdsourced piece
of content on this very specificthing, topic related to
(40:19):
depression therapy.
And so I said if you want to befeatured, send me your best
piece of content on it.
And out of the five pieces ofcontent that I got, without even
running any sort of checkingtool, just at a first view
glance, I could see the patternsin the bullet points from five
(40:39):
different people who ran fivedifferent AI prompts who you
know quote unquote did qualitycontrol five different ways, and
I could immediately see thepatterns.
And so none of them knew theother person's submission or
anything like that, and so Ithink the difference in you know
.
So, then, one of the nextrebuttals I get is well, google
says that as long as it's valueadded, then they don't care if
(41:00):
it's human created or AI created.
Well, probably, rule number oneis do the opposite of everything
that Google ever says, becausethey don't.
You know, they're in it for abusiness model, and so what I've
found over the years is isoften they'll say one thing
while they're positioning on thebackend for another thing.
And to kind of bring this home,there was an algorithm update
(41:24):
way back in 2011 and 2012 calledGoogle Panda, and it focused on
unique content, and there wastools out there that you could
copy somebody's content and thenswap the paragraphs and
synonyms, and Google's algorithmcaught on to that pattern.
Well, ai in its current stateis largely just a more fancy
version, advanced version, ofthose content spinners.
(41:45):
I think the scale of AI contentjust caught Google off guard,
but I think they're going toclose that gap and come out with
an algorithm 2.0 on that, andwe'll see a big reckoning on AI
content, and I could add adifferent perspective.
I'll take a breather, though,on the value of human elements
and storytelling.
Speaker 2 (42:05):
Well, I think part of what I'm getting at too.
It got clarified for me as youtalked which is a good thing
tool for concretizing orsolidifying or entrenching
(42:25):
conformational biases which are,I think, inherently bad.
You know, I don't good and evilbad, but just bad from the
standpoint of a conformationalbias, if left unchallenged, if
left unbroken or at leastcracked open, shuts us down from
way too much.
Now are there biases that arejustified, of course.
(42:48):
Are there biases that have beenproven to be correct?
Or good things to be biasedabout Not walking around naked
through dangerous neighborhoodsor whatnot?
Yeah, of course that's a goodbias to have.
I'm not going to do that, it'snot safe.
But there are also ones thatare being fed by, you know, the
(43:09):
trolls of our society that Iwonder sometimes if SEOs could
be used as that same kind oftool to just entrench people
even further.
Do you think that's a realpossibility?
Do you think that's a realpossibility?
And if it is, is there a way?
Speaker 3 (43:37):
to break that cycle so that if we aren't getting too
entrenched, that the searchengine optimization would come
in and say, well, but there'salso this, and you know, keep
you from getting to the pointwhere you're, you know,
immovable.
Yeah, it already exists and ithas for a while.
Yeah, so you know, the firstanswer is from a business model
and then this is from thesocietal view, and so it's
already existed.
Because my goal as an SEO isdifferent than these shady guys
we're talking about, and I'llexplain the difference.
So my goal as an SEO is to workwith good businesses with good
(44:00):
products and services, and thenI can emphasize why they're good
with good products and services, and then I can emphasize why
they're good.
Now other SEOs whether it'spolitics or religion or
geopolitical things, they canuse the same structural and
(44:23):
tactical things that are usedfrom a business model to also
spread whatever information theywant to spread.
Now there's a minor scaleexample.
I think some people are going toalready be aware of this and
believe it, and there's going tobe other people that are going
to go no, I can always tell thedifference in between and have a
little bit of doubt.
One example is there's clientsthat we'll work with that are
(44:43):
not traditional SEO clients, andso these are what we call
reputation management clients.
And so these are clients thathave had.
You know, maybe 20 years agowhen they were young and naive
they did something stupid, andso now when you search that name
, then that's the thing thatcomes up that they're
(45:04):
embarrassed and they'veapologized for and they've paid
their dues.
Then there's ways that you cansuppress that content and you
suppress it by offsetting itwith positive content.
So you know, that's kind of thegray area where I give an
example, because it's notspreading misinformation but
again it's emphasizing.
You know are now as a, as a newand improved person, but you
(45:25):
can.
So that is a gray area example.
Then now you take that to the.
The really obvious negativeexample is like the geopolitical
things, and you can.
If we simplify this, at thebeginning of the chat we said
there's three main areas of seo.
One is your site structure.
Two is your content.
Three is your credibility.
So if I want to push outmisinformation that's really
(45:49):
well written on a website thatloads quickly and is mobile
friendly there's the first twobuckets then all I have to do is
boost its external credibilityand get other people talking
about it and, as soon as I can,get other websites to link to it
or get it to show up in thenews, then all of a sudden it
gets that credibility, which iswhat makes it show up higher on
search engines.
Now, anytime there's anelection, just go look at the
(46:14):
different types of people thatare showing up.
This doesn't have to be apresidential election.
It can even be on a smallercounty scale or state scale.
Who's going to win is theperson that hires an SEO company
and positions them higher,because when you're doing your
due diligence on somebody'squalifications, that person is
only going to push out the stuffthat sounds attractive to get
(46:34):
them voted.
Speaker 2 (46:36):
Getting ahead of what's going to be and what's
going to be wanted by people andmaking sure that you fill that
spot.
Is that Yep?
Speaker 3 (46:43):
exactly.
Speaker 2 (46:44):
Are there predictive models that are out there that
would be able to help a personstay ahead of that curve?
You know, I'm thinking of itfrom a business way, if you can
see the next big thing, is therea way to look at your?
I'm a big Star Trek fan and Ialways think of when you know
Star Trek, after it left as anoriginal series, kind of went
into limbo for a while and theytalked about bringing it back to
(47:05):
the animated series, which youknow largely.
People said, but they, you know, then they were going to do a
new series, a new series, a newseries, and it just kind of went
nowhere because they couldn'tget it figured out.
(47:27):
No-transcript, I just did alittle copy of Star Trek.
Are there particular things outthere that you think SEOs or
the kind of technology you'retalking about can help people to
get ahead and at least get aninkling of what it's going to be
and then figure out?
Do I fit in that in some way?
Or is there a way for what wedo to fill that next trend?
Speaker 3 (47:51):
I don't think that there's really.
I mean, it really boils down tocritical thinking.
Do you have the ability todistill information from fact or
fiction?
Ability to distill informationfrom fact or fiction?
And so it's like there's somequote along the lines where it's
easier to trick somebody thanto tell them they've been
(48:12):
tricked.
Speaker 2 (48:15):
Well, that goes for conformational bias too.
So gee whiz.
Speaker 3 (48:19):
It's easier for you to just execute a trick or a
bluff on somebody and neverbring it up, and then it's done
and you know it was truthbecause you did it, than it is
to go.
Did you know that you're wrongand I tricked you?
And then you get in this bigargument, right?
So it's like you can't arguewith stupid.
What's that?
Speaker 2 (48:37):
meme.
You can't argue with stupid.
They'll just wear you down totheir level and then beat you
with experience.
So I thought that's prettytelling.
So well, Damon, is thereanything that you want to make
sure that people get out ofhaving listened to Any like
distilled information you wantpeople to kind of think about?
(48:59):
If they've got a website,they're thinking about getting a
website, or whatever that theyshould maybe keep as a mantra as
they move ahead.
Speaker 3 (49:08):
Yeah, I can give an answer and a resource.
So you know, if you startexploring SEO, the main thing
that you want to look for inqualifying an agency to shop
around is transparency.
And so, as you ask them things,can they give you a clear
answer, not a vague answer.
Can they give you a clearanswer, not a vague answer?
And so one of the biggest redflags for me that I educate
people on is, if an SEO agencywhen you ask them how they do
(49:29):
those three categories structure, content, credibility if they
come back and they say the wordproprietary in any capacity,
then just run as fast as you can, because all SEOs have access
to very similar tools.
It's just who knows how to usethe data within them the best,
and so there's lots of thingslike that.
So what I can leave the audiencewith is I wrote a book about
(49:50):
things like that Like what doyou ask in the agency?
How do you make sure you don'tget ripped off?
How do you understand what goesinto the investment of this and
the time and the cost and whattype of payoff it is?
So if you just go toDamonBurtoncom, on there there's
a free copy, pdf, no upsell,nothing, it's just there for the
taking.
Speaker 2 (50:06):
Just kind of a roadmap for how to go about
doing it, isn't it?
So I actually went in andsigned up for it.
So I got my PDF copy and Ican't wait to read it now,
especially after talking.
So, folks, my guest today hasbeen Damon Burton.
Damon is a husband and fatherof three.
I think that's probably one ofyour number one job, right
Overall it's being a husband andfather.
But he has a corner on themarket.
(50:29):
I'm going to say you've got acorner on the market of what's a
really smart way to do an SEO.
That is not something you hearoften around these days.
Not that there aren't smartSEOs, but his narrative if you
go back and want to listen againor tell friends to come listen
to it with you there are somereal nuggets of just common
sense.
I think.
Ultimately, damon is what I'mgetting out of things, but
(50:51):
there's also a sense of altruismthat can be monetized and you
don't, you know, I think there's.
I don't know that you have tohave either money or happiness.
You can have both and have, youknow both, a sense of doing
something intrinsically good andextrinsically good at the same
time.
So I thank you for your time.
Really, it's been a pleasuregetting to talk to you.
(51:12):
Hopefully maybe we'll get totalk again at some point in the
future.
That'd be fantastic.
So folks have been listening toProfiles in Leadership,
otherwise known as Frame ofReference.
I'm Raoul LaRouche, damon,thanks again, hope to talk to
you again sometime.
Take care, pleasure.
Thank you.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com