Let's Talk About: Power

What do you think? Text me and let me know!

Jesus gave away power. What does that actually mean...?

What does it really mean to have power—and what happens when we hoard it? In this thought-provoking conversation, historian and theologian Dr. Bradley Melle (Freestyle Theology) sits down with international human rights advocate Rev. Joash Thomas to explore the anatomy of power: why it’s hoarded, how it corrupts, and how Jesus’ life offers a radically different way to use it.

Together, we trace power from ancient empires to today’s oligarchs, unpack the fear and fragility behind political and economic dominance, and ask why “more” never feels like enough. Joash shares global perspectives from his work defending the poor from violence, while Brad draws on church history—from the early Christians caring for plague victims in North Africa to the ways Christianity has too often blessed empire instead of resisting it.

We wrestle with big questions:

• Why do the powerful seem so insecure?
• How does fear drive greed, colonialism, and endless expansion—whether into land, markets, or even outer space?
• What does it mean when Jesus “gives away” power?
• How can the church recover the courage to stand with the untouchable and marginalized?

This episode blends history, theology, and activism to challenge the way we think about power, from the Roman Empire to Elon Musk, from settler colonialism to the Gaza crisis. It’s a call to move from fear-based hoarding to Spirit-empowered liberation, rooted in love, justice, and the conviction that no one is truly secure until we all are.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 01 (00:00):
Hey, Joash.
Good to see you again.
Good to see you too, man.
Good to be back together.
Absolutely.
Something I just want us todive into and start talking
about.
This sounds like a massivetopic because it is.

(00:20):
And there's so much we couldsay about it.
I want to talk about power.

Unknown (00:26):
Hmm.

Speaker 01 (00:26):
Because it is a word that is thrown around a lot.
Sometimes it's used to kind ofas like a shorthand for, you
know, the villains at the top ofsociety.
Other times it's used morepositively, like you need to,
you know, take back your poweror, you know, we need to be feel

(00:47):
empowered.
And, you know, it's part ofabuse is systematically
disempowering people.
Yeah.
And so I have a lot of thoughtsswimming through my head.
And I have a feeling thatyou've thought about power and
the powerful a lot.
And so I wanted to see where wecould go with that.
So as I typically do, whathappens in you, in your mind or

(01:12):
body, just when that word comesup, when you hear the word
power, where do your neuralpathways start moving towards?

Speaker 02 (01:20):
Yeah.
From an auditory standpoint,there's something...
heavy about the word power whenuttered in the English
language, right?
Like almost has like this tooheavy sounds like power.
It's intense.
It's heavy.
So just like from a listeningstandpoint, that could be quite

(01:43):
intense.
But I mean, in my context, Iwork in international human
rights.
I've spent the last decade ofmy career working in
strengthening justice systemsall over the world to protect
people who are poor fromviolence.
And what you realize veryquickly is that power is not on
the side of those who are poorand pressed, and power is on the

(02:05):
side of those who are rich andpowerful.
And that in itself does notalways necessarily have to be a
bad thing, the fact that somepeople have power.
But if that power is abused, orif that power is hoarded in an
unhealthy way, then it's bad.
Or if that power is even usedto marginalize other people

(02:27):
further, which it often is, thatis the end result of power in
so many cases, then that'sproblematic.
So that's just what I think ofpower when I think of my context
and the word itself.
Yeah,

Speaker 01 (02:41):
that's interesting, because that What you just said
is something I wrote to myselfearlier today, which was, I
mean, for a little background, Iwas trying to grapple with, in
this case, when we're talkingabout the powerful, okay?
As like the class of peoplewho, and this goes across

(03:05):
societies, and we have differentways of structuring power, but
often there's this class ofpeople who are a minority of
people who hold way more cardsthan anyone else.
And I've been trying to kindof, you know, as the United

(03:25):
States and other countries tomove in this authoritarian
direction, which is such a grossthing to be saying and talking
about, but it's true.
We are like collectively kindof remembering a lot of what,
especially Western society hasknown for most of its history,

(03:46):
which is like a untouchableupper class and the rest of
people being much more on thelower class.
You know, for this like verybrief little window, there
seemed to be a growing middleclass.
It's like the middle classstill exists in people's mind
and people still identify asthat, but it's kind of

(04:09):
disappearing, right?

Unknown (04:11):
Yeah.

Speaker 01 (04:11):
And we're returning to something more about what was
the norm, which I hate to say,but that's not the way I want to
go, but where there is apowerful group of oligarchs,
right?
And you said this word, this isa long way to get there, but
you said hoarding power.
And that's the exact thing thatI wrote to myself was for there

(04:36):
to be a class of people whokind of are perpetually in
position of power.
In this case, meaning theability to enact will, right?
The ability to effectivelyenact your will.
That seems to be what power is.

(04:58):
It seemed like it struck methat it was similar to hoarding,
to greed, where it's like youdon't...
you are building barns to holdall of your resources that
enable you to act your will outwhen other people don't have

(05:19):
any.
And that seems fundamentallyabusive and distorted, hoarding
power.

Speaker 02 (05:29):
Yeah, I mean, I think of a conversation I had
with my uncle in India a fewmonths ago, because this
phenomenon of people hoardingpower isn't the uniquely Western
phenomenon.
It's all over the world.
So my uncle was telling me thatin India, I think it's
something like 5% of thecountry's population owns 90% of

(05:53):
its resources, right?
Which is a lot to think of.
So the way he framed it islike, well, you know, us
Indians, The rest of us arebasically 95% of the country
fighting over 10% of thecountry's resources.
Because 90% of it is locked upwith people who've had it locked
down for generations,generational wealth.

(06:14):
And I feel that even more as animmigrant in the West where I
don't have a thing calledgenerational wealth here.
And then I have friends, peopleI know who may not have high
paying jobs the way I do as anonprofit executive, but they're
way more wealthier than I am,despite having less education,

(06:37):
less hard work, less maybe moneyin the bank even.
They've got these assets.
They've got inheritances,property, GICs, you name it, a
bunch of that kind of stuff justsitting.
I have no conceptualization asan immigrant, as a two-time
immigrant to North America, ofwhat that's even like,
especially as someone working inthe nonprofit space where know

(07:00):
if i'm if i'm paying my bills uhevery year and paying my
student loans then i'm makingout great oh if i'm saving a
little money for a vacation i'mmaking out great but but the
reality is that there are peopleum who don't even think about
it who have power and resourcesum and power and wealth i bring
that up because they're bothtied in together um and often

(07:22):
you see people making up poweror protecting power to really
protect their wealth and theirresources, because that's what
they don't want to share withanyone, even if those wealth and
resources have been gainedthrough illicit ill-gotten
means, like stolen land, forexample, here in the West, in
North America.
Yeah, but just

Speaker 01 (07:43):
a lot of thoughts flooding through my head.
You're going in actually a lotof the same directions that I
have been going in over the lastcouple of days.
Okay, if I was to say to youthat I think those people with
power, whether that isgenerational or whether it's,
quote, legitimate orillegitimate, those people with

(08:06):
power are extraordinarilyfragile and gripped with fear.
How would you respond to that?

Speaker 02 (08:15):
Yeah, two ways.
The first way I'd respond tothat is, Do I think they can be
that way by default?
Absolutely.
I think when you're conditionedwith wealth and power, you're
conditioned to be protective ofit.
Anything that is remotely seenas a threat is seen as something

(08:37):
you want to convert,assimilate.
You know, deport, destroy,right?
There's no space.
There's no room.
And, you know, I've beenthinking of this a lot lately in
the context of North Americanrelationships with indigenous
communities and settlercolonialism.
I think there's a closerelationship between the

(08:58):
integration dialogue we see inthe U.S.
and even here in Canada with,you know, students from India on
student visas, right?
and the illegal immigrationdebate in the States or
deportation, mass deportations.
I think there's a closerelationship between that and
settler colonialism and the waywe have not reckoned with

(09:20):
settler colonialism as settlercolonial folks, right?
And so we think that we've beenmade the owners of this land.
We think we own the land, thatthis is ours.
And that's not even a Christianconcept because a Christian
concept of that, a Christianunderstanding of that, is the
earth is the Lord's andeverything belongs to the Lord,

(09:40):
right?
We're just mere stewards of it.
But when we fool ourselves intothinking that we're the owners
of the land, we then look atpeople with no power, no threat,
just coming here foropportunity, like immigrants and
people on student visas.
We look at them as a threat.
They're here to steal ourpower.
They're here to steal our jobs.
You know, they're here to...

(10:01):
change our cultures, you know,by introducing different foods
to the spice palette orsomething like that, right?
And it's sad because at the endof the day, I look at people
like that and myself in my lowmoments when I get frustrated
with tourists in SouthernOntario.
I ask myself, I hold a mirrorup, ask myself, who made me an

(10:23):
owner of this land?
This isn't my land to beginwith.
First, it's God's land and thenit's our indigenous neighbor's
land that I have inheritedthrough illicit means, you know,
gotten to the rent and live on,things of that nature.
So I see a close relationshipbetween integration and settler
colonialism.
And I think unless we reckonwith how we have benefited off

(10:46):
of stolen land and resourcesfrom our indigenous neighbors
here in North America, we won'tlearn what it's like to seek
justice and to treat ourimmigrant neighbors well.

Speaker 01 (10:57):
Wow.
Yeah.
Yeah.
The word that whenever we talkabout settler colonialism, which
I've studied a lot and have,you know, and the direct
descendant of that, like waymore than you are, right?
Like I'm the poster child forsettler colonial

(11:17):
intergenerational privilege,right?
A word that is always comes upfor me is the word haunted.
And I've been thinking aboutthis a lot too.
As I've been wondering aboutwhy the rich and powerful seem
so afraid, and yet they putforward such an aura of strength

(11:41):
when there's so muchinsecurity, it made me ask this
question, which was, when you,and this might seem really
simple, but I think it'simportant to say, when you
violate another person, Are youautomatically, right after that
chosen violation occurs, are youimmediately then put into a

(12:07):
defensive posture?
Because when you violatesomeone, when you take something
that is not yours, when youtake it from them, I think that
in that same moment that youacquire that thing, you also are
now afraid that they'll take itback.
Totally.
And it seems like in so manyways that is what like is going

(12:33):
on with the class of people whohold power.
Because one of the thingsthat's most frustrating about
people is, you know, we areafraid and we want to survive.
Okay.
And that makes sense.
And so without reallyreflecting on it, without
thinking about Well, what do weneed to survive?
Well, we need more resources.

(12:53):
And so we go out and start toacquire them.
And if someone else has them,well, we'll do what we have to
do to take them.
But every time that we do that,every time we acquire more, our
capacity for what we want tokeep and protect immediately
grows.
So in a country like Canada,the U.S., when you take enormous

(13:17):
swaths of land It's like thatsame day you have completely
changed how you are, like yourposture towards that land.
And you're like, this is mine.
No one's going to take it.
And you, it's like, but itseems like it's this bottomless
pit where there is no amount ofresource, of land, of power in

(13:40):
the sense that, you know, again,the freedom to enact your will.
It seems like there's no amountthat actually exists comes and
secures us, where we feel likewe are finally safe.
Now, I'm not saying, I am nottrying to spiritualize this.
People don't really need basicneeds.

(14:02):
Of course they do.
But when you get to a certainlevel, and I don't think it's
that high, you...
I don't have the exact numbers,but I know this is the case
with money.
And this stat is definitelyoutdated now because of
inflation and how things havechanged economically.
But a few years ago, they didthis study where it was, how

(14:26):
much does a person need to feelhappy and secure?
And the number that they cameup with was around $70,000 a
year.
So you can see that's prettyoutdated now.
But once people, everyincrement that they acquire up
to that, they actually arefeeling more secure and happier.

(14:47):
But once you cross thethreshold, then there is a,
like, marked drop in, like, notdrop in happiness, but you no
longer, like, you gain another20,000.
That doesn't add another 20,000of happiness and security.
And power seems similar tothat, where it's like you...

(15:08):
we we need we have a baselineof like we need to be empowered
like to be in servitude tosomeone else to be uh like
trapped in slavery whether likedebt slavery or like labor
slavery um is is dehumanizingand withering you know it hurts

(15:31):
but once you get to a certainlevel of like freedom to enact
your will you know there'snothing You're not gaining
anything at a level of security.
But yet it's, again, like Isaid before, it seems like it's
this bumble's pit.

Speaker 02 (15:47):
Totally, totally.
I mean, to tie this back tohuman history, this is also true
for the history of humanempires anywhere on planet
Earth, right in the West and theEast.
Empires are never satisfiedwith the land that they own, the
lands that they've conquered,the people they've subjugated.
the resources they'veextracted, they're never content

(16:08):
with that because they have tokeep growing.
They have to keep expanding.
I mean, I heard economistsrecently talk about economic
growth as a indicator.
There's no such thing in empireeconomy way of doing things
where, you know, stable growthor stability in the economy is

(16:31):
guaranteed.
satisfactory right you have tokeep pursuing more and more and
more economic growth and theearth ultimately is finite in
its resources right there's onlyso much that you can keep
extracting extracting extractingwithout finally uh abusing and
marginalizing that's whereslavery comes in that's where
the slave trade uh and forcedexploitation forced labor

(16:54):
exploitation today still comesin it's uh you know, what's the
best way to fuel more economicgrowth?
It's by not paying your staff alivable wage.
And we see this happen in thechurch and ministry world too,
right?
So I think absolutely withempire and the empire way of
doing things, you constantlyhave to keep growing and

(17:15):
expanding.
And this is why I wasn'tsurprised at all when the US,
which many consider to be a laststage empire, looks at Canada
and says, no, we want you.
We don't want to respect yoursovereignty.
We need your resources.
And kind of comes up with thistotal bogus theory of you'd be
better off with us.

(17:35):
It's basically what Russia istrying to tell Ukraine, what
Israel is trying to tell Gazaand the West Bank right now,
people in Palestine, when thereality is empire is only
concerned with ultimatelyextracting wealth from everyone
else to enrich those with powerand resources within the elite
structures of empire,

Speaker 01 (17:54):
right?
And then it's like there needsto be this reorientation of how
we speak about and think about,you know, let's say in this
case, the empire, the powers ofempire, okay?
Because empires seem gloriousand strong and they're expanding

(18:17):
because they have some missionfrom God or the gods or
something like that, right?
Some destiny.
And Now, I think empires arejust scared little children.
Why do they need to keepexpanding?
Why do they always need more?

(18:38):
Because they are afraid, right?
Fearful.
And I think it is operating insome ways, if you peel the
layers away enough, at a verysimple biological level where
we're like, more resourcesequals more security, right?
And I just, I can't get offthis kick because when we think

(19:03):
about like greed, you know,certain images come to mind,
maybe someone in some like nicesuit, you know, with kind of
like an evil smile, they seemlike they're in control and
they're just like bad becausethey're bad.
But greed is really justanxiety.
Yeah.
gone like running amok.

(19:24):
Yeah.
More, more, more.
Like it's, it's a very, it's avery immature.
I know that that sounds likeI'm mitigating it.
Right.
But it's like, it's, I'm, I amactually trying to infantilize
it because it is infantile.
Like it is so much stronger andmore mature and grown up to say

(19:45):
like, no one here is secureunless we all are secure.
Right.
no one here like everyone hereneeds to be able to step into
the power that they are allottedby god by the fact that they
simply exist you know andbecause empires end up being so

(20:07):
cruel and vindictive and um theworst aspects of being childish
right they end up just they endup I think we talked about this
before, but like acting likescared animals.
But it's like they're takingthat scared animal energy and
they're codifying it intosomething that seems glorious

(20:30):
and destined.
And I mean, unfortunately, thatis one of the roles the church
has served best of all in itshistory is it has provided the
necessary energy theological,spiritual justification and
narrative to bless thischildish, unreflective, fearful

(20:55):
power hoarding.
It's, it's found ways to blessthat.
Yeah.

Speaker 02 (20:59):
Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely.
And, and at the same time,here's the part two of, uh, what
I wanted to say earlier, uh,when I said two thoughts came to
mind.
So yes, there's this rubbishbail that we could go down of,
um, people hoarding it and thengoing from Smeagol to Golan.
Like it's bad for theirhumanity.
It destroys them from theinside and the outside.

(21:22):
Because spiritually andmetaphysically, we just weren't
meant to hoard it.
We were meant to share theserich resources because they're
not ours to begin with, right?
So that's one rabbit trail wecould go down.
But the other thing that comesto mind for me is the hope that
I get to see as a fundraiserworking in human rights spaces,

(21:44):
right?
So doing the work offundraising and international
human rights, I have gotten towalk alongside some ridiculously
wealthy people.
You wouldn't know it because ofthe way they live their lives
with humility.
But these folks, I'll give youan example of one family I've

(22:07):
got to work with over the pastfew years.
They, have a huge heart forjustice and sold a major company
that they built ground up to abigger company for a ridiculous
amount of money, right?
And with all the profits fromthat massive sale, they could

(22:30):
have just taken that money andsat on it and essentially kept
it all or kept some of it ormost of it.
Instead, because this finally,I think, had been truly
transformed by the best parts ofChristianity, had been truly
transformed by their faith inJesus Christ in the best ways
possible, in ways that evenNicodemus couldn't do in the Old

(22:51):
Testament, or the rich youngruler couldn't do, with Jesus,
you know, presenting thatinvitation to them.
Here we have this family that,you know, gets their kids
together and makes a collectivedecision saying, we're good, we
have what we need, let's takeall the money we made from this
sale and it was a massive amountof money and uh let's just make

(23:12):
a plan let's just uh you knowcome up with a family foundation
uh and plan to give away all ofthis money over the next 10
years to the best causespossible uh for the work of
justice around the world and andit truly is like an inspiration
an honor for me like i mean Youknow, people know who I am now

(23:33):
because I'm a published authorwith a book coming out and, you
know, growing social mediaplatform.
But the world will never knowthis family or their names
because they're faithful behindthe scenes.
You know, everyday people intheir community live very
humbly.
But I know the cost to them.
I know what they're saying noto and how they're just so

(23:56):
joyfully giving away all oftheir resources and money.
how they're happier for it atthe end of the day, right?
I mean, think of what happensfrom Seminole to Golem.
This, you know, is basicallythe opposite journey for people
with wealth and power who don'tfeel the need to hoard it and
live in a very open-handed wayinstead of clinging on to it.

Speaker 01 (24:16):
Yeah, and, you know, you said that this makes sense
spiritually and metaphysically,right?
And lately, I've been thinkingabout things more kind of at the
biological evolutionary level,just because this really did

(24:36):
shock me.
I never would have guessed ifyou could ask me, like, what
kind of things would you bethinking about if you're asking
that 20 years ago when you're,you know, 20 years from now.
And I never thought that Iwould be finding a lot of, like,
life in thinking about thingsfrom an evolutionary
perspective.

(24:56):
I never would have guessedthat.
And I think it's absolutelycritical because when we're
talking about that, we'retalking about humans kind of at
our most basic programming.
And one of the most commonthings I kind of heard growing
up, not from my family, butfrom, you know, in the

(25:19):
evangelical youth spaces, werereally, really like weak
anti-evolution arguments aboutAnd one of the ones that was
most common was this was anattempt to get an emotional
reaction out of people.
And it was that, you know,well, evolution is all about
survival of the fittest.
And, you know, is that reallythe kind of world that you see?

(25:41):
Like people aren't just outthere fighting just for
themselves and, you know,willing to tear anyone else
down.
What about like love?
What about sacrifice?
And I remember when I was ateenager thinking, yeah,
survival of the fittest doesn'tmake sense at all.
But as I've learned more, I'velearned that that isn't at all
how humans evolved.

(26:02):
Because when we say, oh,survival of the fittest, we
usually think in terms of rawpower and strength.
But what was the fittest thingthat the human mammal devised?
The thing that allowed us tosurvive and then thrive is love.

(26:24):
Because we learned, and we knowthis not just at a spiritual
level, but at a biologicallevel, that caring for the
others around us makes usstronger.
We survive.
And what's interesting is, whatI'm coming to see is, we have
an infinite black hole of anappetite for resources.

(26:47):
We always think we could usemore.
The fact that billionairesexist proves that.
I think history...
proves that there is no amountof wealth and power that is
enough.
I think it proves that withouta shadow of a doubt.
But I think that what actuallygives us that felt sense of

(27:09):
security and safety is when wehave each other.
That is actually what makes usfeel at peace.
When you know that there is anetwork around you that has your
back, you can actually rest andrelax.
But I don't think that resourceaccumulation does that.

(27:30):
So it's like, we don't buildbarns to hoard resources.
We build homes to housevillages.
And that's what gets me aboutthe early church and why I think
it was so effective.
I think that what it did was ithelped bring people back first

(27:52):
to the fact that if we activelycare for each other we pool our
resources we're all safer andhappier and stronger and the
second thing they did is theyexpanded the vision of who
counted as your fellow human nowthrough christian history that

(28:13):
has not always been in manycases it's not um case but we
still have the early church tolook to where it's like instead
of just caring for those youknow that you are related to by
blood or just caring for thosewho you're in the same
socioeconomic class i think whatmade the church revolutionary
wasn't that they were the firstpeople to love they weren't they

(28:35):
weren't the first group to lovelike families and tribes love
and take care of each other butthey expanded the parameters of
who got to count as family.
Male, female, rich, poor,slave, free.
There is no distinction.
And you can add our modern, thebinaries we generate.

Speaker 02 (28:56):
And they also loved more selflessly than anyone
else, which they got from Jesus,right?
Who literally like lays hislife down so that the world
would flourish.
You know, like who, yeah,subjugated himself to, death as
a powerless man at the hands ofthe most powerful empire on

(29:19):
earth at that time, you know,and taught his followers to, you
know, if you've got twot-shirts and your neighbor has
neither, give one away, right?
That would be consideredMarxist today.
But that's what Jesus taughthis disciples, and that's what
The early church did.
That's how they lived.

(29:39):
And then you've got stories.
I mean, I'm sure you know thesestories better than I do, but
stories of the plagues in Rome.
And you've got Christianshanging around when everyone was
told to evacuate, to put theirlives on the line, to care for
their sick neighbors at greatcost to their own lives when no
one else would.
And that's actually one of thethings that helped grow

(30:00):
Christians.
the church in that time rightwithout the help of empire
before constantine coming in andall that but

Speaker 01 (30:07):
yeah because you're talking about the plague of
cyprian in the 250s in incarthage that's right actually
and which is itself a colonizedarea right so fascinating uh
stuck there and You know, whenwe think of Latin Christianity,
we usually immediately think ofRome and Italy and maybe like

(30:29):
Southern France and Spain.
But the real heartland of LatinChristianity for at least the
first 400 years is North Africa.
It's North Africa, not Italy.
And I just say that becausethey made an incredibly powerful
impact, Christians in thatregion.
A lot of the time, the peoplewho were Christian were what we

(30:54):
would think of as the indigenouspeople of North Africa, not
just the Latin colonizers, theNumidians, the Berbers.
Right, right, 100%.
So I do want to talk actually alittle bit about Jesus and
power.
There's a couple things I wantto talk about, and I'll say them

(31:15):
before so I don't forget.
One, it's just a simplequestion.
We've talked about power beingabused, especially by the few
who concentrate it, who hoardit, who build the barns to
contain it.
And obviously, Jesus hassomething to say to those

(31:36):
people.
But then there's how what Jesushas said and has embodied about
a relationship to power I alsothink that has been abused by,
again, not surprising, thewealthy, powerful classes,
especially in the days ofChristian empire and Christian

(31:58):
kingdoms.
And so I want to talk aboutboth of those things.
So first, yeah, what do youthink, if I asked you, you know,
help me understand Jesus'srelationship, to power and
empowerment.

Speaker 02 (32:15):
What

Speaker 01 (32:17):
do you have to say on that?

Speaker 02 (32:18):
Yeah, yeah, a couple of thoughts come to mind.
In my sermons, I often say,Jesus could have chosen to come
down as a Kardashian if hewanted to, right?
But he didn't.
He chose to come down as avictim of empire.
And Christians...
And the West get reallyuncomfortable with this idea of

(32:39):
Jesus as a victim of anything.
We've been shaped by thatempire mindset of looking at
Jesus only as a victor.
Yes, yes, Jesus was a victim,but he was a victor.
He ultimately was a victor.
And I think both things can betrue, but I've noticed that
Western evangelicals get reallyuncomfortable with this idea of

(33:02):
Jesus as a victim of genocide,Jesus as a victim of empire.
Jesus is, you know, a brownJewish Palestinian dude who was
homeless for most of his adultministry and, you know, was
executed as a victim of thestate at the end of the day, as

(33:24):
a victim of empire in a verywrongful way, a very arbitrary
way, right?
And so I think the good newsfor people in poverty and
oppression is that Jesus knowswhat it's like to be
disempowered.
He knows what it's like to bemarginalized.
He knows what it's like to bebetrayed.
He knows what it's like to beoccupied, colonized, a survivor

(33:45):
of genocide.
He knows what it's like.
And that's actually good news,not just for people in poverty
and oppression, but that's goodnews for all of us.
With all of our lifecircumstances, even the richest
human being on earth experiencesmarginalization somewhere in
their life, whether it's mentalhealth, physical health,
emotional health, spiritualhealth, you name it.

(34:06):
In one of these areas, there'ssomething where everything isn't
whole.
And the good news for them,too, and their richness is the
fact that Jesus is good news totheir marginalization, too, if
they let Jesus be good news totheir marginalization.
But so many of us struggle withthis because, you know,

(34:27):
speaking of those with power andthose without power, I think
Christianity was always meant tobe of faith for people without
power.
And historically, it was forthe first few centuries of the
early church, right?
And then you have power come inand Christians get a taste of
power.

(34:47):
And then all of a sudden, wejust become shills for empire
instead of embodyers of goodnews for the poor and the
oppressed, like Jesus commandedus to in Luke chapter 4.
And so it's important for us toask ourselves, who is have I
learned about Jesus from?
Like who has taught me aboutJesus?
Have I learned about Jesus onlyfrom the rich and the powerful?

(35:08):
Well, if that's the case, thenI need to deconstruct that
Jesus.
And if needed, even crucifythat Jesus so that resurrection
can happen.
And so that I can relearn aboutJesus from those without power
on the side of eternity.
Because they experience Jesusin ways that even I won't

(35:28):
experience in my lifetime.
Like the gospel, the good newsof Jesus, just hits different
for people in poverty andoppression than it does to the
rest of us.
And I think it's important forus to humble ourselves and
become learners and sit at thefeet of those who've been
disinherited and disempowered tolearn about Jesus from their
perspectives.
That's actually not to do aplug here, but that's actually

(35:51):
one of the things I talk aboutin my book, The Justice of
Jesus.
I'm holding the first copy ofthe book in my hands.
But this book basically helpsus reimagine who we learn about
Jesus from so that Christianityand the church today is actually
perceived as good news forpeople in poverty and oppression

(36:12):
instead of just being the badnews that it's been so much of
Western Christian historybecause we're sided with those
with power.

Speaker 01 (36:21):
And I mean, oh man, we've got so many thoughts first
on church history.
Again, if we go with, I thinksometimes what, what happens to
me is I can get into this loopor this rut where I can just
easily speak about those withpower, kind of treat them as
villains and not really delvedeeper into the like why the

(36:47):
powerful do what they do.
And that's why what I'm tryingto highlight that fear side of
it, the fragility, right?
Because it seems like theproject of the wealthy, powerful
class in most societies, inmost of history has been to
reinforce and expand theirholdings, right?

(37:10):
Whether their holdings arebased on land, whether they're
on trade rights, whether they'reon the rights over people's
souls and minds, right?
And to reinforce, first toestablish, then reinforce, then
expand their holdings.
And then to pass laws andgenerate a society with norms

(37:33):
that makes their holdings theirpossession of those holdings
seem natural or God-ordained.
I think that is what thepowerful and rich classes are.
That's the main project they'reinterested in.
And with Christianity, I thinksometimes it has been a victim
of its own ambitious mission,where it has morphed often into

(37:58):
megalomania.
Christians have at times, manydifferent times, had this hunger
to, quote, take over the world.
And that is, that's whatmegalomania is.
That's what, like, villains do.
They want to take over theworld.
And they usually want to takeover the world, not for some

(38:21):
insidious reason, not sinister,but because of some, like, we
should be in power because wecan make things better.
Then things will be the waythey're supposed to be.

Speaker 02 (38:30):
Roman peace packs

Speaker 01 (38:31):
Romana.
Yeah, exactly.
Roman peace, Christian nation,like biblical values, whatever
you want to say.
But it's still the thirst totake over the world and control
people.
And I think that's whyChristians have so often sided

(38:51):
with the powerful.
Because again, what is power?
Well, if it's an ability toenact will, if it is an
energetic, yeah, it's an energywith direction.
Like a directed energy to makesomething happen.
You can see why people withthis mission could be very

(39:12):
seduced by it.
I think sometimes we createthis thin kind of a caricature
of what happened afterConstantine, Christians in
Power, where they're like, youknow, slowly seduced and
corrupted.
We don't often reflect onimages that come to our mind.
We just let them happen.
But sometimes when people talkabout Christians becoming

(39:33):
corrupted by power, I think theysee someone being enticed by
gold or palaces.
And I really don't think that'swhat the real problem is.
I think the real thing that isseductive is if you just gain
access to basically theunlimited resources, the ear of

(39:54):
the emperor, you can do anythingyou want.
And that means you can make theworld better.
That's the Messiah complex,which, ironically, the Messiah
does not have.
Wow.

Speaker 02 (40:08):
That's good.
That's so good.
I mean, I almost think of it inthis way, right?
It almost feels like there'sthe Christ, and you'll know
where I'm going with this,there's the Antichrist, right?
No.
No.
The word Antichrist has beencolonized.
Think of someone who will comethe end times and oppress the

(40:29):
church and all the ways in whicheschatologically it's been

Speaker 01 (40:33):
colonized.
Flows down services because ofCOVID.
Exactly.

Speaker 02 (40:40):
But to me, the Antichrist is someone who
embodies the opposite values,the values of Jesus Christ, that
Jesus lived and taught duringhis life in ministry on earth.
And so...
In many ways, I think Elon Muskcaptures perfectly what we've
been talking about.
If we were to characterizeeverything we've talked about in

(41:01):
a person right now, someone whoembodies the Antichrist values
of, you know, give away yourpower.
Well, the person that's doingthe exact opposite of that right
now is Elon Musk, who's justhoarding his power, right?
So the dude, yeah.
Hoard and

Speaker 01 (41:18):
destroy.

Speaker 02 (41:18):
like multiply exponentially boom there you go
so the dude has been uh abillionaire for quite a while
now that wasn't enough for himright he wasn't content by that
he had to expand he realizedthat the earth has very finite
resources so what's his nextfrontier the colonization of
mars right so that that's hissingle-minded agenda like the

(41:41):
colonization of mars becausethere are probably resources
there that there aren't here.
Like he's bored of theresources on Earth, right?
And so he spent all this money,literally bought the largest
empire on Earth, the UnitedStates government, right?
Like bond paid for it throughcampaign finances and all of
that, right?
And then kind of found himselfat the table of slashing and

(42:05):
reprogramming all these funds ofthe United States government,
shut down USAID, right?
Which- was doing so much goodaround the world and literally
saving so many lives around theworld, children, right?
And so now he's cramped down onthe one arm of the US
government that is doing so muchgood, that's giving resources

(42:28):
and wealth and power away.
He says, no more of that.
We're not gonna give power awayanymore.
we're going to hoard this moreand more and more.
And then ultimately gets boredof that project too and goes
back to his singular project ofdecolonization of Mars, right?
And I read a news article thisweek which says that he will be
the world's first trillionaireby the year 2027.
You're

Speaker 01 (42:50):
right.
You're actually right.
That does epitomize what we'retalking about.
And that, again, anotherhistorical instance that proves
that the the pit is bottomless.
And Mars is the perfect symbolof that bottomless pit because

(43:12):
it is another planet.
And the amount of resources toget there is absolutely absurd.
And we're also talking...
This always really gets me.
We are talking about...
terraforming Mars, right?
Which means, like, make it likeEarth.

(43:33):
When, why not terraform

Speaker 00 (43:38):
Earth?

Speaker 01 (43:40):
Like, I think that space is not, we call space, you
know, because of Star Trek, thefinal frontier, right?
Frontier is empire language.
The frontier is the edge ofwhat is controlled and where
your goal is to expand beyondthe frontier and to make space
frontier zones empire and tothen the frontier moves and then

(44:04):
to do it again right that'swhat the u.s did through the
19th century as it moved westwas it was trying to absorb more
and more of the frontier intoits body politic right so it's
it's insatiable and i thinkspace that's the perfect phrase
the final frontier because if weif we turn out to it and desire

(44:27):
to colonize new planets thenthere really is no end to that.
There's always another planet,another star system, another
galaxy, right?
I can't actually imaginesomething worse for us because
we don't...
All that would do is take ourdeep existential fear of loss,

(44:52):
of not having enough, ultimatelyof death, and just...
Expand it infinitely outward.

Speaker 02 (44:59):
Project it throughout the universe.

Speaker 01 (45:02):
We would not be safe to encounter another life form,
another human-like life form.
We would not be safe for that.
We are not mature enough.
We don't know.
This is such a bizarre rabbithole we've gone down, but I
think you're exactly right.
I think this epitomizes it.

(45:22):
And then, okay, so then if thatis anti-Christ, because I think
at some level we recognize, Ithink you're right.
I think we have taken somethingfrom the wisdom of Scripture
and turned it into somethingwonky and fantastical, like a
real person from a certaincountry from what time period.

(45:45):
We have lost the plotcompletely as we've tried to
create plots around that.
Mm-hmm.
You're right.
The Antichrist means everythingthat Jesus does not stand for.
And certain people embody that.
They like, right?
They do.
They embody it more and moreand more.

Speaker 00 (46:04):
Yeah.

Speaker 01 (46:05):
So then it makes me think, because I want to dwell
on this for a little bit, likereally in specific ways, how
does Jesus, like what is hisrelationship with power, with
disempowerment and empowerment?
Because here's one thing thatI'm thinking, which is I hear
often like that Jesus gave awaypower.

(46:26):
And I don't really know whatthat means.
Like he gave away power.
And I want to not get to thecross yet.
But like in his life, becausethe cross should be the ultimate
embodied action that all theother actions of his life also

(46:48):
took.
He already told people to takeup their cross before the cross.
And I know that that waswritten after.
But that's an interestingchoice that they had him say,
take up your cross.
But yeah, one of the ways thatJesus embodies his relationship
with power is by touchinguntouchable people.

(47:12):
Wow.
Wow.
So good.
And I guess what I'm wonderingis, why...
is that so powerful?

Speaker 02 (47:24):
I think in religions and societies everywhere,
you've got caste barriers,really, everywhere.
It's not just in India.
I was told it's just in India,but I came to the West and saw
the caste systems.
We have a player here, too.
And so, you know, with thecaste systems of the world,

(47:46):
you're told that If you touch anuntouchable, you lose your
status, your credibility, yourrespect in the community.
You lose all of that, which isbasically a loss of power.
That's what power is in so manyways.
Yeah.
And so I think that's such agood example of Jesus embodying

(48:06):
giving power away.
I think another example of itwould be the way Jesus treats
women with dignity and And Imean, just the fact that you had
women in his entourage studyingunder him may seem normal to
us, but it was socountercultural to that time,
not only because of Jewish lawsin place, but also the Roman law

(48:28):
of tutelage, right, whichprevented explicitly forbade
women from studying at the feetof rabbis.
And yet you had Jesus who haddisciples, not just Jewish,
receive it, but then you hadpeople like Mary Magdalene who
went and proclaimed the gospel.
You had, you know, Romanschapter 60, you see a list of

(48:49):
women who carried andtransmitted and explained the
letter of Romans to the churchin Rome from law, right?
So it's not just Jesus dressingand

Speaker 01 (48:58):
imparting the call, too.
Basically, that's whatpreaching is.
Yes.
Preaching is expounding on thetext to the congregation.
Right.
If you're in charge of readingthe letter and interpreting it
for the people sitting therebeing like, what?
What's that?
I mean,

Speaker 02 (49:15):
you're preaching.
And preaching is power, likeyou just said, because in the
words of a Palestinianliberation theologian, Rafiq
Khoury, I believe, who saidthis, or Mitra had said this,
the one who interprets historyand scripture holds power,
ultimately, right?
And our Palestinian neighborsknow this because they've been

(49:37):
on the wrong side of power forso long.
But the reality is that hereyou have Jesus empowering women
to go proclaim that andliterally empowering them,
giving them power to go do so inthe early church, right?
And so I think that would beanother example of Jesus giving
away power instead of hoardingit for himself.

Speaker 01 (50:00):
Yeah, okay, that's good.
There's being empowered to tellyour side of the story, right?
Especially in Christianity,women have been so disempowered
to proclaim their take, theirinterpretation, what they

(50:25):
witnessed through Christianhistory because it quickly went
back into the patriarchal normsand baptized them.
Initially, for this brieflittle moment, you had people
like Mary Magdalene out theresaying, This is what he said.
This is what I saw.
This is what it means.
And that is the interpretivepower.

(50:48):
I'm telling you what happened,and I'm telling you what it
means.
That is power.
And what's interesting iswhenever you, and it's kind of
like Jesus saying, yeah, go anddo that.
In fact, I always thought thatwas strange when, you know,
there's the guy, he heals on theisland of Gennesaret.
And he wants to go with them.

(51:10):
He says, no, go and proclaimwhat you've seen and heard.
And I was always like, that'sit?
You're going to just let himgo?
This is back in the evangelicaldays.
Aren't you going to bring himin and tell him all the other
things he needs to think?
And it's like, no, this isenough.
Jesus did colonize the dude.
No shopper, huh?
The guy experienced somethingpowerful.

(51:31):
And Jesus is like, go and tellit like you did.
know it yes and i think thatthat is really good and that's
whenever people feel empoweredto to say their piece you end up
with contradictions you end upwith conflicts you end up with
no i don't think that's whathappened or no i don't think

(51:53):
that's what it meant yeah butwhat about this and i i guess
from the jesus perspectivethat's fine deal with it you
know It's not like Jesusempowered Mary Magdalene to go
speak some like well codified,you know, no loophole gospel.

Speaker 00 (52:12):
Yeah.

Speaker 01 (52:12):
It's her, what she experienced, saw and
understands.

Speaker 00 (52:16):
Yeah.

Speaker 01 (52:17):
And when Phoebe's doing that in the church in
Rome, right?
Is that who it is?
That's who it is.
Yeah.

Speaker 00 (52:21):
Yeah.

Speaker 01 (52:21):
When Phoebe's reading the letter of Paul and
expounding on explaining it tothe church of Rome, like she's
bringing herself to that.

Speaker 02 (52:29):
Right.

Speaker 01 (52:30):
And that is part of being empowered.

Speaker 02 (52:32):
Absolutely.
I mean, I also think of tyingit to the Trinity a little bit.
When Jesus and his relationshipto the Holy Spirit, right?
So in Luke chapter 4, you seeJesus receiving power from the
Holy Spirit and going to thesynagogue and saying in Galilee,
the Spirit of the Lord is uponme to preach good news to the

(52:53):
poor.
So again, Jesus has beenempowered by the Holy Spirit for
the work of liberation andjustice.
That's what power is ultimatelyfor in God's economy, right?
And then you see that rightbetween Luke and Acts, that
transition takes place, right?
Where Jesus then talks to theleaders of the early church as

(53:14):
disciples, and he tells them,you will receive power when the
Holy Spirit comes upon you.
The same spirit that empoweredme to do what I did to liberate
our poor and oppressedneighbors, that same spirit is
going to come and empower you todo the same.
And that's what the earlychurch does, right?
Right up until they startedhaving illusions of power for

(53:36):
them, more like delusions ofpower for themselves.
Because as you've expounded sobeautifully in your work, they
had all this trauma of being onthe wrong side of power.
And many of them were like, youknow, that's it.
Enough of that.
We want to taste this power forourselves and never be
marginalized ourselves.
And in doing so, lost theessence of the good news of

(53:57):
Jesus, which is good news firstto people who are poor and
oppressed.
And that's the case with theWestern church today.
We have power that we'veinherited, but we're such bad
stewards of this power.
And instead of going the Jesusway of giving this power away,
we go the Elon Musk way ofmultiplying this power for

(54:19):
ourselves and holding it forourselves in very selfish ways.
And it's killing us.
right

Speaker 01 (54:25):
it's corrosive it's corrosive internally it's
corrosive where whatever wetouch wow that is so see okay
that's that's really helpfulit's like the way you just
expounded on the spirit rightthe spirit the the life animator
the breath of existence like tohave to be alive right now is

(54:48):
to have the spirit, the, what'sit, like Ruach.
Yes.
The life vitality, as theymight call it in other cultures,
right?
She, like flowing through us,giving us vitality.
And it's like, what is thepoint of vitality?
And the way you're describingit, it's like what Jesus shows

(55:11):
is where we are at right now,the point of your vitality is to
free others.
To what?
Free them to what?
Free them to have that vitalityat its fullness in them, too.
Yeah.
And to do that requires peoplehaving their basic security

(55:41):
needs met without real question.
That's at least, I know sincethe mid-19th century, as
Protestantism divided into thesocial gospel emphases and the
more theological gospel, we livewith this huge chasm between

(56:04):
the two.
But it's like, you have toabsolutely start with someone
cannot go hungry.
And it might be like, yeah, butif we just focus on that,
that's all we'll do.
Well, yeah, then that might beall we do.
Because humans come alive whenwe are engaged in tasks

(56:26):
together.
And that in a way is likepooling our power to achieve
certain goals.
And what it means to liberatemight be a pretty expansive,
large, massive project thatrequires...
All of us.
But it kind of makes sense ofJesus saying, you think what I

(56:51):
have done is impressive?
You will do far greater things.
And I used to think he was justbeing kind of facetious.
Or being like, it's technicallypossible that you could do
amazing miracles.
No.
I think he's saying, I don'thave a lot of time.

(57:12):
I am showing you in these veryintentional embodied sacred
symbolic acts what you need todo on the large scale for your
like devoting your whole life toand it's the path to life so
like he touches a leper and thatleper experiences the flow of

(57:33):
the spirit's energy and likereturns to life that is a
symbolic act i mean he reallydid do that too But then it's
like, what does it look like totouch lepers?
And that answer is going to beenormous.
And right now, a thing thatthat means is, you know, to do

(57:54):
whatever you can to protect aPalestinian child.
That's what it looks like totouch a leper.
And I think that's what itlooks like to liberate.

Speaker 02 (58:03):
Especially with the cost.
that comes with that, right?
So I freaked out this week whenMs.
Rachel followed me onInstagram, but something I
really appreciate about Ms.
Rachel and, you know, Ms.
Rachel for kids, I think is herInstagram handle.
And she's this, this children,you got kids, you'd probably be
able to package it better forme, but this, this You know, a

(58:26):
person who teaches kids,educates kids all over the
world, has this massive fan baseand has leveraged all of her
platform to talking about what'shappening in Gaza right now.
And it's costing her something.
And I am not at liberty toshare the ways in which, you
know, supporting Gaza has costme supporting our bond and, you

(58:48):
know, genocide survivorneighbors in Gaza who are being
starved to death right now.
has cost me, but there's a costto this.
You're right.
When you stand with theuntouchable, they're untouchable
for a reason.
And now you've corrupted yourown dignity in that society,
your own status, your ownprestige, your own credibility.
You've put that at risk.

(59:10):
But it's still very little, ifnot nothing, compared to what
our untouchable neighbors haveto go through for themselves.
I get people telling me, hey,you're very brave for speaking
up on Gaza right now, especiallyas someone, you know, working
in the Christian world right nowin the West.
I say maybe, but it's nothingcompared to what our neighbors

(59:35):
in Gaza are showing right now,the bravery that they're showing
for the crap, the absolutelyunnecessary crap that they're
enduring, lives that God did notintend for them to live.
And that's ultimately what thework of justice and liberation
is.
It's It's to free people towhat purpose?
To the purpose of them livingthe lives that God intended for
them to live before sin cameinto this earth, right?

(59:57):
And corrupted our systems tohinder life.
It's freeing people to realizetheir God-given potential, their
God-given liars.
And when we do that, it's goodfor us too, because it frees us
too, right?
because we then get toparticipate with God in this

(01:00:18):
work of liberation that heinvites us into.

Speaker 01 (01:00:23):
Man,

Speaker 02 (01:00:23):
that's good.

Speaker 01 (01:00:24):
Well, I feel like there's more to say here with
this question.
It's a genuine question for me,which is, when I hear people
say, Jesus gave away power, whatdoes that mean in practice?
That is a real question.
I do not have some satchel fullof answers that I'm trying to

(01:00:47):
sneak in.
I don't really know what itmeans.
So I want to walk through thesethings with a little bit of a
slower pace.
Because what I am convinced of,even though I don't fully
understand it, is...
there people are not wrongthere has been a separation of

(01:01:09):
jesus the teacher the person wholived his life and christ the
theological the incarnate son uhthose have been to they have
there is a cleft between themand we want one of those to just
die we do i mean We do.
We don't really care about whathe said, lived,

Speaker 02 (01:01:30):
or

Speaker 01 (01:01:30):
anything.
Because what matters is thetheological narrative of
salvation.
But that narrative is...
That has been the primary thingin Christian circles, is the
theological narrative ofsalvation.
And in that respect, Jesus'life doesn't matter as much as

(01:01:52):
his death and resurrection.
We make it matter, but...
But it doesn't, it hasn'tmattered as much.
But what I'm convinced of isthat the, like, I think that the
way all the things that Jesusembodied, I think there is a
real like symbolic power inevery single thing he did.
I think it was all doneintentionally to, to open the

(01:02:16):
door to something bigger andlarger.
Like we were saying withtouching lepers and, That wasn't
just about lepers.
It wasn't just about touching.
It wasn't just about themoment.
It was about a way of being.
And I don't think that thetheological narrative of

(01:02:37):
salvation, I don't think thatthey should be separated.
Like the cross must be.
Not the bizarre atonementtheory that we developed in
medieval Europe based on thehonor of a lord and a vassal
dishonoring the lord and stufflike that, demanding death.
I think that that was just aregional contextualizing that we

(01:03:02):
turned into the universal truthof it all.
I really just don't think that.
I don't think that holds water.
I think that...
whatever the the cross must bethe ultimate kind of symbolic
act the the climax the like thegrand finale of all the symbolic

(01:03:27):
acts that jesus did because hedoes talk about like dying to
self right and it seems likefollowing this way of using
power to free others leads tothe suffering and leads to life

(01:03:47):
it seems like that isfundamentally this dynamic jesus
is trying to demonstrate lessthrough words and more through
actions right so then what thatmakes me want to do and i think
we are out of time now but whati want to do is i really want to
look at the actions he took andwhat they might mean if we

(01:04:10):
opened up and expanded thefiles, you know, say like the
thing Jesus did.
Yeah.
What is the file?
That's its name.
What happens when you open itup and you, you know, you go,
you open up all the sub files ofwhat's, what that act would,
how that would lead, lead us touse our power.
Totally.
The present.

Speaker 02 (01:04:31):
So, because that is ultimately what got Jesus
killed.
What got Jesus killed is,wasn't so much of a theological
statement as it was, no, you'reupsetting the status quo by
going and stirring stuff andupsetting these norms that we
have in place that ultimatelyhave to do with protecting

(01:04:51):
power.
Absolutely.
And that's what got it killed.
So all the more reason for usto zoom into those.
And maybe even contextualizethat to our world today.
I didn't put two and twotogether until you said...
Jesus interacting with theuntouchables.
And the untouchables of ourworld in Western society today

(01:05:11):
are Palestinians and possiblyeven LGBTQ people.
Because those are the top twodivisive issues in the Western
church right

Speaker 01 (01:05:18):
now,

Speaker 02 (01:05:19):
right?
So how do we learn from Jesusin that context that apply to
arts?

Speaker 01 (01:05:24):
And I think that is, in so many ways, that's the
kind of theological work weshould be doing.
Because that is about living inthe way the christ-shaped way
animated by the spirit's energyright all of that is if we

(01:05:46):
follow jesus at all how he livedand moved through the world and
interacted with people shouldmatter more than anything and we
should believe i feel likefaith is about believing that
living like that leads to lifeyou know what this actually

(01:06:07):
reminds me of this quote jeremyadler's christians who don't
suck on instagram which is agreat series for reminding
especially it's really good forsomeone like me because i i can
very easily forget that uh whenyou deal in the dark side
christian history right but hewas talking about clarence
clarence jordan today and whojust did these incredibly

(01:06:30):
offensive acts in the southernU.S.
in the 1940s and 50s of kind ofdeveloping and you know
building I think they were likefarms that were where black and
white families lived

Speaker 02 (01:06:48):
that'd be offensive by the way even today in the
U.S.
South

Speaker 01 (01:06:51):
yeah right it doesn't have to be the 1940s
maybe the 2020 and you know wasgot bombed for it things burned
down like And he has thisawesome quote, which I think
just really speaks to our times,which is that faith is not
belief in the absence ofevidence.
Faith is a life lived in scornof the consequences.

(01:07:15):
And when I read that, I waslike, that resonates so deeply
because faith That and like alife lived in scorn of the
consequences.
Like, no, we're doing the rightthing no matter what happens.
That sounds like courage.
That sounds like the kind oflife that you're like, that you
cheer for in a movie.

Speaker 02 (01:07:36):
Wow.

Speaker 01 (01:07:37):
That's a figure that you're like, yes, they did it
even though everything wasagainst them.
Right?
And usually we then reflect onthe positive impact that that
made, whether that person livedor died.
They did the right thing.
They lived in the rightdirection.
And look at the fruit it'sborne.
Belief in like thinkingsomething is true in the absence

(01:08:00):
of evidence, it just feelsstale and disconnected from a
reality that I know.
But I feel like for a lot ofpeople, that's what faith means.
It means like shut down whatyou obviously know to be true
and pretend until you'vepretended long enough.
that you really think it'strue.

(01:08:22):
That sounds like craziness.
And then to connect with whatwe said, Jesus empowering people
to go out and speak and saywhat they had seen and what it
meant, like tell their side ofthe story.
Well, then with that in mind,faith has to be like a

(01:08:44):
willingness to say what you haveto say, what you've seen to be
true and know.
as opposed to what you are sureis not true.

Speaker 02 (01:08:52):
That's beautiful.

Speaker 01 (01:08:54):
So hopefully next time, let's keep talking in this
direction and look at Jesus andmore of these things that he
embodied and what it might mean.
That'd be incredible.
I'm forward to it.
Thanks for being here for you,Dan.

Speaker 02 (01:09:10):
Yeah, absolutely.
Joy to be back.