June 12, 2025 • 60 mins
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In this raw and wide-ranging episode, Brad is joined again by Rev. Joash Thomas to explore the emotional and spiritual roots of what Brad calls the “evangelical tantrum”—the reactive, fear-fueled backlash of white conservative Christianity in the face of cultural change. Why do some Christians in America act as if they’re being persecuted, even while holding power? What are they so afraid of losing—and have they even lost it?
Together, Brad and Joash dive into history, theology, trauma, and personal stories. Joash opens up about his past as a rising political consultant in Georgia’s Republican Party, his moment of reckoning, and the journey that brought him to international human rights work and ordained ministry. Along the way, the two reflect on the immaturity of much of Western Christianity, the seductive illusion of cultural dominance, structural racism, and the healing power of surrendering control.
If you’ve ever felt disoriented by white evangelical fragility or longed for a more mature, liberating Christianity—this one’s for you.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Hey guys, welcome to another episode of Freestyle
Theology.
I'm back with my good friend.
You hear that?
Good friend.
Good friend.
It's better than just friendfrom last time.
(00:20):
Yeah.
I'm back with my good friend,Reverend Joash Thomas.
And we seem like we just keephaving lots to talk about.
which is, I mean, kind ofessential for this podcast.
SPEAKER_02 (00:33):
It's good to have an excuse to hang out more with a
neighbor when I'm in town, soI'll take it.
SPEAKER_00 (00:38):
How have things been lately?
SPEAKER_02 (00:40):
Yeah, things have been great.
I mean, honestly, just gettingto travel the world, but also
across Canada and the U.S.
and find hope and signs of hopein places that...
You wouldn't expect to find it.
Yeah, just been feeling veryencouraged lately.
SPEAKER_00 (01:01):
What's the energy like right now in the U.S.?
I haven't been there in a longtime now.
Don't have plans to go, but I'mjust wondering because you have
to go there sometimes.
Yeah, I have
SPEAKER_02 (01:12):
to go there is a good way to put it.
Yeah, I mean, I think...
What I'm noticing is that thereare maybe two or three types of
people.
You've got the type of folks whoaren't affected at all because
of their privilege right now andthey just seem oblivious to
everything happening in thepolitical climate and the fears
(01:33):
of their marginalized neighborsbecause life is the same for
them.
You've got the folks who areaffected by it or are close to
people affected by it and arevery nervous and anxious and
fearful and just completeopposite.
And then I think you've gotlike, Some of the other folks,
(01:55):
folks who Dr.
King called the white moderates,who could be black or brown too,
by the way, depending onsocioeconomic status.
But I think these folks findthemselves in the middle where
they know that there's bad stuffhappening to good people around
them, but find themselves justchoosing moderation and choosing
(02:16):
to bury their heads in the sanddespite knowing evils befalling
marginalized neighbors.
So it's fascinating to watch theU.S.
right now.
Yeah.
I mean, you've got friends inthe States.
What's your interaction likewith them these days?
SPEAKER_00 (02:30):
Yeah, I guess in a way, the people I know would fit
somewhere on that spectrum oftotally...
You know, this actually gets atkind of what I want to talk
about today.
SPEAKER_02 (02:44):
Let's get in
SPEAKER_00 (02:45):
it.
Right?
Because...
As you're describing thisdemographic who are not affected
at all, who are not, nothing isreally that different for them
other than what they'reconsuming in the media and the
fears that they're having, whicha lot of it's just happening in
their imagination, right?
(03:07):
And what I wanted to talk abouttoday was actually the white
evangelical reactionary movementand responses that we see right
now.
But if you look at Americanhistory in the last 125 years,
the story is the same thing overand over again of conservative
(03:28):
evangelicals reacting badly andimmaturely to changing culture,
to political shifts.
And the word that I just can'tget out of my head these days is
tantrum.
SPEAKER_01 (03:45):
Tantrum.
SPEAKER_00 (03:46):
this evangelical tantrum over culture and just
kind of spinning out of control.
And the reason that when youasked me why that clicked for me
was, interestingly, a lot ofwhite evangelicals are the
people whose lives are notaffected at all.
And yet there's this enormouslandscape of internalized fear.
(04:11):
And it leaves you with thatquestion, like, fear of what?
And that's sort of what I wantto get into.
Fear of what?
Because for all the changes thatwe've seen in the United States
over the last century, for allthe, you know, it's been a lot
of change.
(04:34):
But the white conservativeProtestant is still at the
center of society, is stilldominant in most institutions.
And so it leaves you thinkinglike, afraid of what so when
when I bring up this topic I'mdoing it where I know that there
(04:54):
are so many other voices andfears from different from people
who are not white evangelicalChristians and it's almost like
I don't even necessarily want tohave another discussion about
white Christians but You seewhat I mean?
Like I don't want to necessarilycontinue to center that, but
(05:17):
these reactions are causing somuch destruction and so much
like paranoia and suffering forpeople that I think we need to
drill down a little bit.
And again, ask that question,afraid of what?
So when I bring that up, when Ibring up white evangelical fear
or tantrum, what are some ofthe, you're like, where do you
(05:40):
go initially with that?
SPEAKER_02 (05:42):
Yeah, I love that.
That's such a great question,such a great thing to ponder
over.
You know, I think of RichardRohr, right?
I'll tell you why I think ofRichard Rohr before.
You know, who throws tantrums?
Children, toddlers.
But physiologically speaking,that's understandable because
their bodies aren't mature yet.
(06:03):
Their emotional well-being,their brain isn't fully mature,
developed yet, right?
So there's a reason why wethen...
tell adults who throw tantrums,hey, you're being a little
childish right now.
And I think of the Apostle Paulwhere he says, when I was a
child, I talked like a child, Ithought like a child, spoke like
a child, but then I became anadult and there was
(06:27):
transformation.
Put away childish things.
Put away childish things,exactly.
Put away immaturity.
And so I think of Richard Rohrbecause Richard Rohr often talks
about how so many evangelicalChristians, really so many
Western Christians, have a veryimmature underdeveloped
Christian faith where and healso says that maybe one of the
(06:49):
reasons why we have immatureunderdeveloped faiths is because
maybe because of the trend ofgetting married younger and
having children younger so youknow I mean I think of this like
for my parents too my parentsmarriage is so different today
than when it was when I livedwith them and there's a reason
for that they've grown togetherthey're matured but When I go
(07:11):
visit my parents today, I seethem having a very different
relationship, almost apartnership in mutuality, right?
That was quite different from myupbringing.
Like my dad will say that thingsin the home are more patriarchal
and more hierarchical back whenwe lived in a society like that
in India.
And with time and experience andcontext come developments,
(07:32):
right?
And so it's the same thing.
I think many Westernevangelicals have a very
different childlike faith and achildlike way of looking at
Jesus in a bad way, becauseJesus said childlike faith is a
good
SPEAKER_00 (07:47):
thing.
Because childlike faith soundsgood.
Right.
But you mean like an immaturefaith?
Yeah, more like a
SPEAKER_02 (07:53):
childish faith than childlike faith, I guess, where
it's just very immature, veryreactionary.
You know, it's not nuanced.
It's not patient.
You know, it's not like thisbeautiful prayer of St.
Francis where we pray, we askfor strength not to console, not
(08:13):
to be consoled, but to console,not to be loved, but to love,
not to be understood, but tounderstand.
But that's not the posture of somuch of white evangelicalism.
It's a posture of, honestly,fragility so many times, you
know, where if you offend myevangelical sensibilities, I
deem you as a heretic.
(08:33):
I, you know, call for yourfiring, your expulsion,
expulsion, your death, you know,whatever.
Uh, and it's, it's so, it looks,it's so childish.
It looks nothing like Jesus atall at the end of the day.
SPEAKER_00 (08:44):
Yeah.
That was another line from Paulthat's sticking out to me right
this minute is when he's talkingabout like what love is, you
know, the classic weddingpassage, but that line, love
endures all things.
And that endurance of all thingsto me, that strikes of like
maturity and of flexibility, ofadaption, of creativity.
(09:09):
Like, we're dealing with thesecircumstances.
Maybe we've never dealt withthis before.
What does love do in thiscircumstance?
Sometimes you don't know what todo when society is changing,
let's say.
You don't know exactly how torespond or where things are
going to go.
But the abusive thing to do isto clamp down.
Try to, you know, put thingsback the way they used to be,
(09:33):
something like that.
That can only be accomplishedthrough violence.
That's the only way to forcesomething.
That's the closest thing we haveto a time machine is violence
because that's what we do to tryto force things back through
legislation or something.
But that's not love enduring andadapting and responding.
You know that one of the centralsort of philosophical tenets of
(09:55):
karate is mind like water.
SPEAKER_02 (09:57):
Wow.
SPEAKER_00 (09:58):
Which I think is just so powerful where it's like
water, you know, it will, itwill react in a, in the
appropriate corresponding waywhen it's like affected.
If you drop a rock in it, right.
It'll splash upwards, but veryquickly it tries.
What it's good at is returningback to stasis.
(10:20):
Mind like water, very powerfulconcept.
And honestly, like I can't thinkof something further.
from how I would characterizethe conservative evangelical
mindset of the last 120 years.
Mine like water, mine like fire.
Wow.
Wow.
SPEAKER_02 (10:40):
Yeah, I think of fire.
I think of waves by a beach,high tide.
I think of a tsunami.
Yeah, I actually lived in a citythat survived a tsunami in 2004.
Really?
I did, in Chennai, India, and itwas devastating.
And I think there's a reason whywater imagery is so prevalent
(11:03):
across scripture as well.
And I love that Eastern wisdomfrom Karate of a mind like
water.
I mean, I think of peace thatpasses all understanding at the
end of the day, peace thattranscends all understanding,
that phrase from scripture.
And I've often wrestled over thelast few months, ever since the
last election, really, what doesit mean for Christians, lay
(11:24):
Christians, but also clergy toembody peace a transcendent
peace, a peace that transcendsthe anxieties, the trauma, the
chaos of this world.
And I think I love that imageryof water because still water,
something serene about it,there's something peaceful,
(11:46):
restorative about it, butthere's something really
anxiety-inducing when you see atsunami coming towards you.
And I think, unfortunately,That's how our neighbors outside
the church likely experience thechurch right now.
They experience the church as atsunami and not as, you know, a
serene surface of water.
SPEAKER_00 (12:08):
Right.
Not as a grove, an oasis to cometo for rest and refreshment and
shade and safety.
And that's just so, it's sodisturbing and disappointing.
And that's why I'm wanting tosit here and be like, what is
going on?
And how long has this been goingon?
(12:30):
So, you know, what's yourinitial take?
If someone came up to you on thestreet and asked, why are
evangelicals throwing thistantrum?
What would you respond in thatmoment?
I'm just curious.
SPEAKER_02 (12:44):
Yeah, that's a good question.
I've been talking to afirefighter friend of mine, a
firefighter friend who fightsfires in Toronto, and his name's
Jeff.
And I've been picking his brainon something that I've been
processing that only someonewho's responded to situations
like that might have insight on.
But I've had this theory thatwhat we're seeing right now in
(13:06):
many ways is the last gasp of apeople who are afraid of losing
power, afraid of losing control,domination, status.
The threat may not even be real,because like you said, White
evangelicals hold significantpower and authority and
influence in the States, but thevery threat is enough.
(13:30):
And so there's this last gasp.
Patriarchy is dying away.
White supremacy is dying away.
It's ultimately gonna die away.
But you see this last gasp ofpeople trying to hold onto it.
And I was processing this withmy firefighter friend, Jeff, and
he was telling me, I've seenthis, it's real.
(13:53):
And when I'm with someone who'sdying, they have this last gasp,
they're about to die, but theyhave this last gasp where they
breathe in real hard and exhaleand that's it.
And he resonated with my lastgasp theory as a firefighter
(14:14):
because he sees this firsthandand that could very much explain
what we're seeing.
right now maybe that's a veryoptimistic perspective but
that's what i'm hoping for
SPEAKER_00 (14:22):
well i i don't think i've ever thought about where
the the saying came from lastgasp because i've heard you know
you tend to think of your lastbreath being sort of kind of
fading away taking you know lessand less and less of a breath
right but this description uhSounds like for some people,
(14:43):
there is literally a huge burstat the end.
SPEAKER_02 (14:46):
Yeah.
I mean, think about it.
After eight years of Obama, it'snot a coincidence that you see
the backlash or what some wouldcall the white lash of the most
unhealthy parts of whiteidentity coming out and having a
last gasp kind of moment.
No, we're going to.
do the exact opposite of what wejust had for the last eight
years.
(15:06):
And we almost had that here inCanada too.
But, you know, I think, I thinkthis stuff is real.
SPEAKER_00 (15:14):
That is, yeah, that, that aligns kind of with what
I'm thinking as well, as well aswith American history more
broadly, because this is, Theway that conservative
evangelicals are acting rightnow, generally as on a whole,
(15:35):
obviously there's exceptions toevery single thing anyone says
about anything.
Or as Richard
SPEAKER_02 (15:39):
Rohr would say, there are a few sane people who
make the rest look sane.
Right, yeah,
SPEAKER_00 (15:46):
yeah.
But this reaction to hold on topower and centrality is...
It's absolutely critical.
And for a long time, I tried inmany ways to separate whiteness
from Christian identity, kind oftreating them separately as kind
(16:11):
of two sometimes overlappingidentities that get tangled
together.
But with what we know fromintersectional studies, and
that's just...
That's the more lifelike way toanalyze something where you look
at all the intersectingidentities operating at once.
(16:33):
Conservative whiteevangelicalism and whiteness are
just, in so many ways, one andthe same.
That's not to say there's nohope that that doesn't have to
be that way.
There absolutely is.
But the way it's operated, theyhave been like two sides of a
coin.
(16:53):
And what I'm coming to realizeis the way evangelicals are
responding right now, you wouldthink that they had lost
something, something immense,something huge, that this is
like a painful trauma response,lashing out, hurting people the
way that like an animal would ifit was cornered, right?
(17:16):
And this is the strangeness ofthe situation, right?
Evangelicals are acting likethey're a cornered animal
lashing out when it's in so manyways that's imagined.
That's not real.
They are more likely to be theone cornering someone else, some
kind of marginalized group.
(17:38):
And so it's like I want to godown this rabbit hole because
why is that the situation?
Why is the white person...
so fragile.
And I know books have beenwritten on this and all that.
But when it comes to theevangelical identity, why is the
(17:58):
white Christian, the whiteProtestant in America so
ridiculously fragile?
Like an open wire that if youjust touch it, it blows.
Like what is with that?
I think that there hasn'tactually been any real
significant loss in Nothing, nosignificant material loss to
(18:21):
speak of.
Economically, no loss.
And I'm talking now about thecourse of the 20th century and
into the 21st.
White Protestants in America,economically, enormous growth.
Politically, like, that...
It's never been better.
It's never been better, right?
(18:44):
Cultural, like, as...
as for what group sort of getsto determine the mainstream,
normal, natural image of anAmerican family is a white
family in the suburbs.
But what I think, the one thingthat did change was in the
(19:07):
1960s, and this has somepredecessors before it, but
That's when things, the 1960sare when the conservative
evangelical really starts tolose their mind.
And I think what happened wasthe loss was the loss of
uncontested, unchallengedcultural dominance.
(19:30):
That itself is, you might lookat that and go, that's it?
Like, so now, you know, you justdon't get to have, you don't get
to just walk aroundunchallenged.
And that's enough to trigger anentire decades long movement of
like culture war.
(19:51):
Because I cannot find somethingthat says it more clearly than
that.
It just seems so pathetic.
And the part that's grating onme right now is, this is the
part that embarrasses me, isthat these people are at a
(20:14):
chemical level operating.
Chemically, these are traumaresponses.
And that's embarrassing becauseit's unfair.
It's unfair that we have to sithere and talk about white
evangelical trauma when theyhave inflicted so much trauma on
(20:35):
people, so much real trauma,like with real violence.
And we have to sit here and talkabout it give it the time of day
again because that trauma, thatgrief, again, this is
embarrassing,
SPEAKER_02 (20:52):
right?
It's embarrassing to even callit trauma.
I know.
As someone who works intrauma-informed spaces.
Exactly.
SPEAKER_00 (20:59):
But there is a grieving.
There's a grieving that is beingignored or denied.
It's hard to even say this, butit's grieving over losing the
world they once had, which againwas the unchallenged dominance.
(21:19):
And so you look at it and you'relike, these are suppressed grief
responses and trauma responsesthat are destroying lives and
totally corrupting a lot ofpeople's faith too.
And you're right.
It's embarrassing to even callit that, but that's what it is.
And so it leaves me thinkingwhat, What do you do then with
(21:43):
that?
SPEAKER_03 (21:44):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (21:45):
Because if you just lash out, if you just lash out,
that just re-entrenches it.
Right?
SPEAKER_01 (21:52):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (21:53):
So I'm curious what that brought up in you,
honestly.
SPEAKER_02 (21:59):
I think it just breaks my heart, to be honest.
I think it just brings so muchgrief to me that this is the
state of the world that we livein.
Right?
Because while you've got thesefolks who have their grievances,
so much of it from a place ofprivilege and power of just
losing that.
(22:20):
And none of this new, by theway, historically.
This has always existed in allcultures, all societies,
everywhere.
But it breaks my heart becauseit's a complete distraction from
the real grievances in the worldright now.
It's a complete distraction fromthe children being starved to
death in a blockade in Gazaright now, from children after
being bombed for like, monthsright like it's a complete
(22:43):
distraction from global hungerfrom global poverty from human
trafficking um from some of thedarkest things happening in the
world right now and and it'sjust this self-absorbed uh
persecution complex that blindsyou from what's happening in the
world around you right now thatkeeps you so focused on yourself
(23:04):
that and meanwhile you've gotthe power and the resources to
liberate our marginalizedneighbors, right?
And so this is why, you know,this is why I think historical
injustices like colonialism andwhite supremacy and things like
that, and I named this in thebook, I think this wasn't just
bad for the oppressed, it wasalso bad for the oppressor and
(23:26):
those who benefited from theoppression of their oppressed
neighbors, right?
And so it breaks my heart to seethis kind of disunity and
cognitive dissonance that iscaused by self-absorption and
being blind to the brokennessand the injustices and the need
(23:48):
in this world.
And what a missed opportunity.
What a wasted opportunity to,you know, I mean, just look at
all the money that's spent inpolitical elections.
US and Canada, all the moneythat's burned in election
cycles.
I worked in professionalpolitics.
I've been at these fundraisers.
I see how fear is such a strongmotivator to big pocket donors.
(24:12):
And all that money is beingburned on these political
conquests at home when you'vegot a world out there that's
suffering and you throw a fewdollars in chump change out
there for the world out there.
And then cancel it.
UNKNOWN (24:28):
Yeah.
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (24:30):
Right.
And, um, it's, it's just so,it's just so wrong and it's just
so messed up and, uh, it's, it'sreally frustrating.
So what I've tried to do is I'vetried to look for signs of hope,
you know, even as hard as it isto find right now, like, where
(24:51):
are you finding hope?
Where, uh, are you finding life?
You and justice, and youactually won't find that in the
halls of power.
So I tell people I looked forJesus in the halls of power when
I worked as a Georgia Republicanpolitical consultant.
I didn't find him there.
SPEAKER_00 (25:11):
That has to, we have to stop and talk about that.
You can't just drop that in thiskind of conversation.
Okay, so for those of you whodon't know, and this will shock
some people.
Shocker.
That Joash, do I have thisright?
You used to be a politicalconsultant for the Republicans
(25:34):
in Georgia.
SPEAKER_02 (25:35):
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (25:36):
One of the best.
I just, I, you, we have to likedivert.
You gotta say, you gotta tell ushow, how did you come to do that
and then be, be who you are now?
I just.
SPEAKER_02 (25:50):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, it's such a greatquestion.
It's like, what happened beforeJesus saved you again?
Right.
I get that question a lot.
Yeah.
So I think the story of that forme is deeply tied with my racial
identity as a person of color inAmerica.
So I moved to America at 18 fromIndia and I wanted to be as
(26:12):
American or as white really aspossible.
And so, you know, The GeorgiaRepublicans were in power at
that time, and I was like, I'mgoing to do it.
You're a teenager at this point?
I was 18 when I moved, and sowhen I was 19, still a teenager,
I started working in GeorgiaRepublican politics.
(26:37):
was quite good at it.
I started off as a policyadvisor and a communications
aide and then mostly workedcommunications.
I was chief of staff for a fewstate representatives.
My final year in university, Iwas writing speeches for the
former governor of Georgia andhis re-election campaign.
I started working on apresidential campaign.
I mean, did it all.
(26:57):
And then just made a lot ofmoney doing it.
And then eventually realized thecognitive dissonance that was
taking place where I was just ahired mercenary for people and
causes that I didn't reallybelieve in.
And I think the bottom pet forme was writing an opinion
(27:19):
editorial article for a clientrunning for Congress.
basically saying that legalimmigrants should be stopped
from coming to America through aspecific program called the
Diversity Visa Lottery programthat my family actually came to
the U.S.
through.
So I ghost wrote this opinionarticle.
About how that should bestopped.
About how that should bestopped.
When that's how you came toAmerica.
(27:40):
That's how I came.
Wow.
And so I did that and woke upthe next morning just being
like, what the hell did I justdo?
SPEAKER_00 (27:48):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (27:48):
Right.
And I think That's what powerdoes to you.
It robs your humanity.
That's what the allure ofcontrol and domination does to
us.
We weren't built to handle that,right?
And that's why I'm indiscernment to be a priest now
because I learned so much aboutthe brokenness of my humanity
from that and how my humanitywas suppressed from that pursuit
(28:12):
of power that it just started meon this quest of how do I be
human again?
How do I be human with God andneighbor again?
How do I liberate myself and myoppressed neighbors and those
who benefit from the oppression?
How do I liberate all of us,help liberate all of us from
this with God's help?
(28:35):
Because again, this isn't justbad for the humanity of our
marginalized neighbors.
It's also bad for our ownhumanity, right?
SPEAKER_00 (28:43):
So did you get pulled into it through like
young Republicans kind of thing?
Oh,
SPEAKER_02 (28:49):
yeah.
I was the chairman of the youngRepublicans on my university
campus.
So I was the one pulling othersin.
It's just so...
I can't blame anyone else.
I
SPEAKER_00 (29:00):
made my own choices there.
I take it you're not still aGeorgia Republican.
SPEAKER_02 (29:09):
I'm barely American these days.
I mean, I'm a Canadian now, apolitical independent.
But I will say that I watchedpeople change while I was there.
I watched people lose theirhumanity in the pursuit of
political power or access topolitical power.
(29:31):
You know, I was one of the threenever-Trump Republican political
consultants in Georgia in 2016.
That three individual people?
Yeah, which was a lot.
Like most states just had one atthat point.
Three never-Trump consultants.
Yeah, three never-Trump.
That's it.
That's it.
That's it.
And, you know, one of them tookover a lot of my clients after I
(29:57):
left and is now the right-handguy to the governor of Florida.
who is kind of a big deal, ranfor president as well.
Um, so that was the path I washeaded on.
Uh, you know, Ron DeSantis isright hand guy.
Um, really?
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's the guy who took overmost of my clients.
He's now Ron DeSantis is righthand guy.
That was the path.
(30:18):
And he was, he was a never Trumpguy.
And the other never Trump guy,I'm taking names here by the way
today, but the other never Trumpguy as this guy named Eric
Erickson, who's a massive rightwing political commentator, a
radio host.
And he, uh, he's now a verypro-Trump guy, right?
And I mean, like I took my standand look, like I have friends
(30:39):
who, not to make this aboutTrump, right?
Like he's a human being, Godloves him, right?
I have friends who support himbecause they see other things in
him still.
But the reality is, you know, Isaw people change.
I saw people betray their ownvalues.
You know, regardless of what youthink about the president of the
United States today, if you wentfrom a place of, I can't stand
(31:02):
this guy, I won't put this guyon TV in my household because I
don't know what he'll say infront of my kids, which I've had
Republican state legislators saythat to me on inauguration day,
2016.
If you've gone from that tolike, worshiping the guy now and
believing that he's God's best,you know, God's second son and
(31:22):
all of that, something hashappened to your humanity and
you've changed, right?
And so I've changed, sure.
I've moved in the direction ofliberation for all my neighbors,
but they've changed too.
And I saw the Republican Partychange from the inside too.
And it's not the same party thatI worked in and hope to be a
(31:43):
reforming voice within.
People have to take their ownjourneys.
And I mean, I wouldn't havethought back then that I'll be
here today.
So if you have people stillcaught up in that cult or any
cult, whether it's the MAGA cultor the white evangelical cult in
the US in many spaces, It's notthe end of the story for them.
(32:08):
It's not the end of the rope forthem because there's always hope
and there's always redemptionthat's possible.
if we have the courage toembrace that journey and humble
ourselves and learn at the feetof our marginalized neighbors.
And that's really what wastransformative for me, learning
from survivors of abuse whiledoing human rights work, both
within and outside the church.
(32:29):
That's where I met Jesus.
So I didn't meet Jesus in thehalls of power where I expected
to find him.
I met Jesus on the margins.
And that's where he rescued meand liberated me and put me on
this path towards working forthe collective liberation of my
neighbors.
SPEAKER_00 (32:47):
Man, I mean, I have a feeling.
That's my real testimony.
Yeah, that story probably has somuch more detail that we could
go into.
Maybe we'll slowly open it up.
Because the other thing I wasthinking was you, important for
your kind of transformation wasreturning to your indigenous
(33:11):
roots Homeland, wasn't it?
SPEAKER_02 (33:12):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And doing human rights workthere for a year.
I mean, I did that before the2016 elections and it was
transformative.
It messed with me.
Yeah.
Such a good point.
But the indigenous nature ofthat is
SPEAKER_00 (33:27):
beautiful.
I appreciate you calling thatout.
The dissonance you must haveexperienced with just in
general, but then writing thatletter, that editorial must have
just been unbearable.
Like that kind of dissonance.
SPEAKER_02 (33:39):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (33:40):
Wow.
SPEAKER_02 (33:40):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I just remember, I mean, Iwrite this in the book, by the
way, I share the story in thebook, but I remember talking to
a wise older woman who was avolunteer.
One of the campaigns I managedback then telling her about what
I just did for the othercampaign.
And she looked me in the eye andshe was Jesus to me in that
(34:03):
moment.
She was my, she was a Holyspirit to me in that moment.
She looked me in the eye.
She was like, Oh, I told her, Idon't know.
what I should do here.
She looked me in the eye andsaid, I think you know what you
need to do, Joash.
The very next day, I closedshop.
(34:23):
Closed down your consultingfirm?
Closed down my consulting firm.
I had offers for acquisitionsfrom public affairs firms in
D.C.
that were later indicted in afederal scandal, but that's
another story for another time.
I had offers to sell my firm,but I was like, what have I
(34:43):
done?
And it was too heavy for me.
And so yeah, so I closed theshop and was unemployed for a
couple of months trying tofigure out life.
And a couple of months later, Imoved to DC, took a 50% pay cut,
started working in internationalhuman rights.
(35:05):
And I haven't looked back sincethen.
SPEAKER_00 (35:07):
It's a real, true, you know, the Greek word
metanoia, for conversion, likean eye-opening, right?
And that's one of those.
That's the story of metanoia.
SPEAKER_02 (35:21):
Totally.
And I think we need to have oureyes opened to the beauty of God
and to the need for liberationfor our neighbors every single
day.
You know, like, sure, this was abig moment in my life, but this
is why...
I'm sacramental.
This is why I need Eucharist.
Experience Jesus through theEucharist every single week
(35:41):
because I need Jesus every week,right?
Like, I mean, I've beenprocessing this in my
Pentecostal to sacramentaljourney.
I'm switching gears frompolitics to theology a little
bit here.
But like, you know, in mytradition growing up, you do
altar calls where you invitepeople to come up front and
receive Jesus.
And we'd laugh at the kids who'dgo up every Sunday, right?
(36:02):
That's what the sacramentaltradition is.
At the end of every service,Mass, you've Eucharist, where
you come and experience Jesus.
You come and receive Jesus atthe table.
And when you do that, you'republicly proclaiming your need
for a Savior every single week.
And there's beauty in that,because we don't just receive
Jesus in our lives one time,according to evangelical myth,
(36:24):
right?
You need him every single day.
You receive him every singleweek.
And so this whole glorificationof a moment of justification, a
moment where you're saved, it'sis honestly a load of crap.
Because what you're also sayingin the same breath is, well,
then I don't need Jesus afterthat.
Because I'm good.
I made my decision.
(36:45):
I'm escaping from here toheaven.
My ticket's punched.
But we need Jesus fortransformation in our lives
every single day.
SPEAKER_00 (36:53):
Yeah, that's good.
And I mean, the evangelicalaltar call is also the part of
it that really grates on me isthat in effect, it negates
everything that came before thatmoment as illegitimate because
you're saying I wasn't really aChristian.
I've written on this in mythesis somewhat because
(37:17):
evangelicalism really thrives incrisis.
That's what it knows.
And that connects well with whatwe're talking about this week.
Because the evangelicaltradition is a crisis
intervention kind ofChristianity.
SPEAKER_02 (37:32):
Wow.
SPEAKER_00 (37:32):
That's how it began, right?
People at those camp meetings,at these revival tents, kind of
just putting their emotions ontheir sleeve and feeling
whatever their shame, you know,there was rampant alcoholism in
the United States during therevivals and people were like
(37:53):
filled with shame about that and
SPEAKER_03 (37:55):
So
SPEAKER_00 (37:56):
people had these intense emotions and hit rock
bottom, really had nowhere leftto go and experience some
encounter with God at thesemeetings, right?
SPEAKER_02 (38:07):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (38:08):
And I think the evangelical tradition, that was
its initial strength, wasproviding some kind of lifeline
to someone at rock bottom.
How it then discipled people,right?
following that crisis conversionwas usually was often pretty
troubling and problematicbecause as a Christian tradition
(38:32):
it was pretty weak but it couldthis is the image I used in my
dissertation it's like adefibrillator wow but a
defibrillator is it's a powerfulthing that can like bring your
heart back to life but you don'twant to put one of those on when
you're You don't want to putthat on when you're just walking
(38:55):
around.
SPEAKER_01 (38:56):
Wow.
SPEAKER_00 (38:56):
Or like, what does recovery look like?
Because that defibrillator mightmake your heart start again.
But like, what is the long roadof recovery looking like?
And that's what, in a way,that's what discipleship is.
The long road of recovery.
Recovering our humanity.
Recovering our humanity.
And like some of the ancientChristians thought, that
(39:18):
recovery process sometimesdoesn't end with death.
that recovery process continues.
SPEAKER_03 (39:24):
Beautiful.
SPEAKER_00 (39:24):
Right?
Like, like Isaac of Nineveh orIsaac the Syrian, right?
That recovery.
Now he was working with like theidea of your soul recovering,
but like, you know, there's alot of overlap there of your
true humanity, right?
And so even I've asked, youknow, myself, why, why is our
(39:45):
evangelicals, if, whiteevangelicals in America, if they
have traditionally occupied thehalls of power and the halls of
financial success, there's twoquestions.
Why so much sense of loss andwhy so much fear?
(40:06):
And I've wondered that tomyself.
Why react so immaturely whenthings change a bit, when there
are challenges?
And I think the answer is thediscipleship that a
fundamentalist or an evangelicalwould go through because it is
teaching them that everything iswar, a battle, spiritual battle,
(40:32):
a battle for the culture.
We're drifting away from ourChristian roots and we have to
do whatever we can to get itback.
And the list of consequences areusually very dire.
And everything from If we don'tget this culture back, it's just
going to be rampant crime andimmorality.
No one's going to believe in Godanymore or care.
(40:52):
Everyone's going to go to hell.
SPEAKER_02 (40:54):
Such an anxious faith.
SPEAKER_00 (40:56):
Yes, so anxious.
And if the evangelical church asa whole was sitting in a
therapist's office, which manyof them wouldn't dare to, the
therapist would say, okay, wehave some serious problems here
and some serious work to do.
There is some real...
like incredibly unhealthydynamics at work.
(41:18):
If it was reduced to one family,it would be a nightmare.
Oh, goodness.
So I guess that connects withthe evangelical tantrum.
On the one hand, it's rooted in,again, this is the embarrassing
part that I still don't fullyknow what to do with.
I think the feelings I'm feelingare almost, yeah, embarrassment
or shame, humiliation, becauseit's like, it's pathetic, right,
(41:41):
to be feeling...
to be talking about whiteevangelical grief and trauma,
but the brains of the people inthese communities is releasing
trauma chemicals at the veryidea that they don't have
(42:02):
unchallenged dominance anymore.
So why do you think there wassuch a conservative collective
mind losing in the 60s, right?
Well, it was like a convergenceof civil rights, of feminism, of
even early queer visibility, ofallowing for non-European
(42:26):
immigration, which I thinkchanged in the mid-60s.
And then you have thecounterculture, which is often
white youth criticizing theUnited States and its idea that
it's exceptional.
And it's like, those things allat once, again, none of those
groups gained a bunch of power.
(42:48):
They just were more vocal aboutcontesting the unchallenged
dominance of white patriarchy,Christian patriarchy.
SPEAKER_02 (42:57):
Yeah, that's so true.
And I mean, you know, we've beentalking about white grief and
trauma this whole time, which Ithink it's safe to say we've
narrowed down that so much ofthis is self-induced from
historical sources.
multi-generational participationand the oppression of our
marginalized neighbors aroundthe world.
Well, I see that in non-whitecommunities too.
(43:19):
I don't think this is a problemthat's exclusive to white people
who've been accustomed to powerand privilege.
I see that with brown people tooin India where you have an upper
caste reactionary movement inmany ways right now to the
liberation of lower casteneighbors.
(43:40):
And you've got a lot ofChristians like my ancestors and
my St.
Thomas Indian Christiancommunity that's benefited from
the oppression of our lowercaste neighbors that now feels
oppressed in the States andvotes the same way that many
white evangelicals who feeloppressed vote.
But the reality is, dude, you'reliving in the US.
You made it out.
(44:01):
You've enjoyed the benefits ofthe world in the West.
Why do you feel oppressed?
You're doing quite well.
Your family's doing quite well.
Again, why are you so threatenedby the loss of power?
SPEAKER_00 (44:15):
Threatened by the loss, by the fact that white
Christians are losing, in airquotes, losing power?
SPEAKER_02 (44:26):
To a degree, yes, but also that Christian values,
as defined by the white man inmany ways, can lose power.
That the elevation of, and thisis why many people in my family
voted the way they did in thelast election, it's because of
(44:47):
the fear of their LGBTQneighbors and all the
transphobia there, the fear ofsocial upheaval and you know,
what'll happen next in society,you know, kind of like that
fear.
But in reality, the kingdom ofGod coming in upsets the old
order of things to make way forGod's new creation, right?
(45:08):
The old must pass away asscripture says, so that the new
can be ushered in.
And the old passing away or thethreat of the old passing away
is intimidating, is nervewracking to people who only been
accustomed to power andprivilege.
But as Christians, we're notcalled to power and privilege.
We're called to faithfulness.
We're called to give up powerand privileges so that others
(45:31):
may have life who haven'texperienced life so far, right?
And we're called to oppose thesystems that obstruct life for
our marginalized neighbors.
But when we get accustomed topower and privilege and control,
and when we start to worshipthese things, we lose sight of
the gospel of Jesus, which isgood news to the poor and the
oppressed.
And we start acting weird.
(45:52):
And childish and overly dramaticand with tantrums.
And
SPEAKER_00 (45:59):
being willing to lie for the sake of...
There's got to be some peopleout there who know that some of
the ways they're spinning thesestories are lies.
This isn't just, I didn'trealize it.
There's got to be people outthere who know exactly what
they're doing.
But there's a willingness to liefor some greater...
(46:20):
again, air quotes, good.
The greater evil, really.
I do think the white Protestantmale, the white male Protestant,
you're right when you sayaccustomed to power and
privilege.
And that almost doesn't captureit because that's almost too
tame.
It's like that's all thatthey've ever known
SPEAKER_03 (46:44):
in
SPEAKER_00 (46:44):
America.
Since the moment that At least,you know how the United States
has a number of origin stories,right?
They kind of get blendedtogether, but one of them is the
New England, the Puritans.
Yeah, the Mayflower.
Right, the Mayflower originstory.
Like the moment they get off theboat in Massachusetts Bay, it's
(47:10):
like the moment they step footon the ground, it's like this
spell happens of, well, this isours, right away.
There's not even a day ofthinking, can we just take this
land?
And right away, this is reallyhow it happened.
They began, this image alwaysmakes me feel so, for lack of a
(47:34):
better word, just cringe.
It is cringe American history.
It's what they start doingalmost right away is writing up
these land deeds for themselvesand giving them to each other.
And you're like, oh, all of thisprivate ownership of land, which
is the heartbeat ofcolonization.
SPEAKER_02 (47:56):
Or as Willie James Jennings says, to the
colonizer's mind, to know athing is to own a thing.
SPEAKER_00 (48:02):
Right.
All of this obsession withconquest, with stealing,
conquering, tricking indigenouspeople out of land, however you
want to do it, it's based on afantasy.
made up title.
And it's like, you can actuallyget to the last one and say,
(48:24):
there's nothing under here, butan idea, but a fantasy.
And so that's like, that's dayone.
SPEAKER_02 (48:30):
Yeah.
And think about where we aretoday, right?
Where you want to protect it somuch from anyone who looks
different that you will kick outand do mass deportations of
families, hardworking,contributing to the economy,
law-abiding, you'll kick themout just because they look
different or speak a differentlanguage.
And who will you bring in?
(48:51):
Look at who they're bringing in.
They're not even trying to hideit.
You bring in people who looklike you.
who also have a similar history.
And you support nations aroundthe world that look like yours,
that also have similarhistories, right?
It's the powerful protecting thepowerful.
This is what empire does at theend of the day.
SPEAKER_00 (49:11):
I was looking at, you know, doing some research
into when was the high, when wasthe zenith of white male
Christian dominance in America?
And, you know, because...
That's a tall mountain range,right?
Because there's a lot of heightsof white male Christian
dominance.
(49:32):
But interestingly, the heightwas after World War II, and it
was high before.
But a lot of the changes thathappened that made conservative
evangelicals lose their mind inthe 60s were born out of the
40s, because you have theAmerican men going off to war,
(49:54):
and All the imagery there,people forget that there was a
huge group of African Americanand Native American soldiers
fighting for the US.
The image that getspropagandized is the white
Christian American hero.
And in their absence, women areworking in the factories,
(50:16):
building the bombs and weapons.
And women are experiencing aworld that they had never
experienced.
African Americans fighting overin the U.S., fighting in Germany
against Nazis who aresegregating people based on
ethnic and religious identity,there starts to, a hope starts
(50:38):
to develop there that like we'refighting here, the double
victory it was called, fightingfascism away and racism at home.
And there was an expectation andtotally rightfully so that when
we get back to the U.S., Wedismantle segregation.
We are here risking our lives,fighting against racism.
SPEAKER_02 (50:59):
Wow,
SPEAKER_00 (50:59):
wow.
SPEAKER_02 (51:00):
If I can jump in there.
Please do.
I haven't put two and twotogether on this until now, but
my people have a similarhistory.
Most people in the West don'tknow this, but there were
thousands of Indians who foughtin World War II on behalf of the
British Empire.
And on behalf of the Allies, wefought for the liberation of
Europe, of Asia, and sacrificedmuch.
(51:23):
Never talked about.
And why did we fight?
We fought because we werepromised by the British Empire
that we will give you freedomand independence at home.
Just help us out.
World War I, help us out.
We'll give you independence.
Nothing.
World War II, again, help usout.
Give us independence.
And at this point, Gandhi isdoing a movement and the Indian
leaders are doing a movementcalled the Quit India Movement.
And again, promises not kept.
(51:47):
The British would not have givenIndia independence had Gandhi
not...
done what he did yeah yeahGandhi and the other freedom
fighters and and even then theyrefused to give us World War II
ended 1945 we only got ourindependence 1947 there were two
years that we could have got ourindependence but they didn't
give it to us because they hadno intent to and when they did
(52:07):
give it to us only on theirterms of divide and conquer so
partition and leading tomillions of more people
SPEAKER_00 (52:14):
and
SPEAKER_02 (52:14):
yeah
SPEAKER_00 (52:15):
yeah that's very similar and you know the black
vets come back and Americansociety, the federal government,
all the states, everyone'sinterested in trying to get
things back to normal.
And in order to do that, theyknow that the US has boomed
economically because of the war.
(52:36):
So there's a lot of money.
There's a lot of production.
There's a lot of new jobs.
So I mean, first of all, all thewomen are sent back home.
forced to leave the workforce inmass numbers, even after having
tasted this different way ofliving.
And then through a variety ofpropaganda on radio, in
(52:59):
pamphlets and stuff like that,sort of re-entrenching the
goodness of the domestichousewife.
That is a propaganda campaignafter World War II to get women
to go back to the way thingswere.
The cracks are forming, though.
The cracks are already formed.
You get the black vets comingback and the white vets.
(53:21):
And the federal government comesup with the GI Bill.
That's what it's called, right?
You probably know this history.
But the GI Bill to subsidizehousing.
I can't remember all thespecifics.
Education.
Yeah, education.
Free education or at leastheavily subsidized interest-free
loans, which is whysuburbanization happens, right?
UNKNOWN (53:44):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (53:45):
So you have all this money and all this like hope and
promise and these black vetsreturned to segregation and
they're like, nothing'schanging.
SPEAKER_02 (53:54):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (53:54):
This stays the same.
And what I learned in some ofthis research was like those
African-Americans most likely tobe harassed, beaten or lynched
were people who wore theiruniform in public.
It was seen as like haughty andarrogant and stuff just for fun.
Black vets.
(54:14):
Wow.
And they, while legally, theywere completely entitled to
every benefit in the GI Bill,there's nothing in it that
discriminates racially,officially, but at every single
step.
You know, as a vet, I'm entitledto an interest-free loan.
(54:34):
The bank says, no.
As a vet, I'm entitled to, youknow, free education.
We don't accept...
black people into thisuniversity.
So it's like all the benefitsare completely withheld,
obstructed at every end.
It was so rare.
All the while, white culture isfleeing the inner city, getting
(54:59):
as far away, you know the termwhite flight, as far away as you
can from and building thesuburbs, extreme wealth.
The inner cities lose their taxbase.
They plunge into poverty, whichis then blamed on the
marginalized who are livingthere.
And then what this brings me tois this is now the 1950s, which
(55:22):
is the great romanticizedfantasy era that MAGA and others
like them look back on.
And it's like it was this briefmoment where white supremacy,
white Christian supremacy, juststood up tall again and said,
we're going to make things likethis.
(55:44):
And there's this heroic image ofthe white soldier and all the
happy pictures of the housewifeand the suburbs and the madmen
kind of propaganda.
Totally.
And it's like ever since the1950s, even though all the
cracks were there now, Civilrights movement begins because
the dissonance, like youexperienced almost, but kind of
(56:05):
the other side of it, thedissonance is too much.
As an African-American vet,you're like, I did not give my
life.
My buddies didn't give theirlife so we could come back and
be second class.
And it supercharges civilrights.
And it supercharges feminism.
And all the various othermovements that white
evangelicals look at as a threatand then try to spiritualize why
(56:30):
it's a threat.
And so I think it's like MakeAmerica Great Again, it's like
we need to go back to all theexamples end up sounding like
the 50s.
SPEAKER_02 (56:41):
Yeah, and it's ultimately this vision of I feel
like I need to be on top bysubjugating everyone else around
me.
Women, even white women,subjugate them, you know,
domesticate them, segregatethem, dominate them.
And that's kind of the visionhere.
I get on top by subjugatingeveryone, which is actually not
(57:02):
the way of Jesus.
You don't say.
It's not the way of Jesus,because the way of Jesus is not
to be the master of all, but tobe the servant of all.
And that's where you find Jesus.
Is it any...
wonder that we find jesus thenon the margins of society and
not at the top because he cameand integrated himself into the
(57:23):
margins of society at his timebut we have this christian
nationalist movement today thatwants to dominate power and you
know dominate and subjugate andsegregate our neighbors so that
we can put jesus on top jesus isalready on top and jesus still
chooses to identify with thebottom and there's something
there for people who findourselves at the top or
(57:45):
benefiting from the proximity tothe top to reconcile with and to
give away our wealth and ourresources and our power for the
sake of our neighbors on thebottom so that they may have
life and life to the fullest,the life that Jesus always
intended for them.
SPEAKER_00 (58:02):
It's beautiful.
See, that's life-giving, thatvision.
That's backwards.
That's upside down.
But in our bones, we know that'sthe world we want to live in.
And my last thought is, youknow, I think sometimes about
when Jesus asks us to, tells usto pray for our enemies.
(58:25):
And, you know, that passage issometimes used, you know, to
enable, enable like, you know,like when forgiveness gets
abused or it's like someoneabused someone in church and we
have to forgive or whatever.
And it's just like, something'snot right here.
This isn't thick and full andtrue.
(58:45):
This is not reconciliation.
So I think the same thing withlove your enemies.
And then it made me think, whotaught Jesus what loving your
enemies looked like?
And I thought, well, his mom,Mary, taught Jesus what loving
your enemies looked like.
(59:06):
And I can imagine, so I startedto think, what does loving your
enemies look like If you'reMary, what are you praying for?
Pray for your enemies.
Well, she prays that the richand powerful are thrown down.
And I think that if you havebecome accustomed to the top, to
(59:28):
the cushy comforts that alsojust activate your full-on
animal primal fears when peopleeven think about challenging it,
then what you need is to bethrown down from your throne.
And then...
SPEAKER_02 (59:45):
Because that's good for you.
SPEAKER_00 (59:46):
Because that's good for you.
And you find yourself then downat the bottom.
And that's like where your realjourney begins.
So good.
SPEAKER_02 (59:56):
So good.
Yeah.
May we lean into that.
And may we even throw ourselvesto the bottom so that God
doesn't have to humble us andthrow ourselves out there.
SPEAKER_00 (01:00:06):
Love that.
Well, thanks so much for beinghere with me again.
I already can't wait for nexttime.
And yeah, thanks everyone forlistening.
This is a joy.
Hey guys, welcome to another episode of Freestyle
Theology.
I'm back with my good friend.
You hear that?
Good friend.
Good friend.
It's better than just friendfrom last time.
(00:20):
Yeah.
I'm back with my good friend,Reverend Joash Thomas.
And we seem like we just keephaving lots to talk about.
which is, I mean, kind ofessential for this podcast.
SPEAKER_02 (00:33):
It's good to have an excuse to hang out more with a
neighbor when I'm in town, soI'll take it.
SPEAKER_00 (00:38):
How have things been lately?
SPEAKER_02 (00:40):
Yeah, things have been great.
I mean, honestly, just gettingto travel the world, but also
across Canada and the U.S.
and find hope and signs of hopein places that...
You wouldn't expect to find it.
Yeah, just been feeling veryencouraged lately.
SPEAKER_00 (01:01):
What's the energy like right now in the U.S.?
I haven't been there in a longtime now.
Don't have plans to go, but I'mjust wondering because you have
to go there sometimes.
Yeah, I have
SPEAKER_02 (01:12):
to go there is a good way to put it.
Yeah, I mean, I think...
What I'm noticing is that thereare maybe two or three types of
people.
You've got the type of folks whoaren't affected at all because
of their privilege right now andthey just seem oblivious to
everything happening in thepolitical climate and the fears
(01:33):
of their marginalized neighborsbecause life is the same for
them.
You've got the folks who areaffected by it or are close to
people affected by it and arevery nervous and anxious and
fearful and just completeopposite.
And then I think you've gotlike, Some of the other folks,
(01:55):
folks who Dr.
King called the white moderates,who could be black or brown too,
by the way, depending onsocioeconomic status.
But I think these folks findthemselves in the middle where
they know that there's bad stuffhappening to good people around
them, but find themselves justchoosing moderation and choosing
(02:16):
to bury their heads in the sanddespite knowing evils befalling
marginalized neighbors.
So it's fascinating to watch theU.S.
right now.
Yeah.
I mean, you've got friends inthe States.
What's your interaction likewith them these days?
SPEAKER_00 (02:30):
Yeah, I guess in a way, the people I know would fit
somewhere on that spectrum oftotally...
You know, this actually gets atkind of what I want to talk
about today.
SPEAKER_02 (02:44):
Let's get in
SPEAKER_00 (02:45):
it.
Right?
Because...
As you're describing thisdemographic who are not affected
at all, who are not, nothing isreally that different for them
other than what they'reconsuming in the media and the
fears that they're having, whicha lot of it's just happening in
their imagination, right?
(03:07):
And what I wanted to talk abouttoday was actually the white
evangelical reactionary movementand responses that we see right
now.
But if you look at Americanhistory in the last 125 years,
the story is the same thing overand over again of conservative
(03:28):
evangelicals reacting badly andimmaturely to changing culture,
to political shifts.
And the word that I just can'tget out of my head these days is
tantrum.
SPEAKER_01 (03:45):
Tantrum.
SPEAKER_00 (03:46):
this evangelical tantrum over culture and just
kind of spinning out of control.
And the reason that when youasked me why that clicked for me
was, interestingly, a lot ofwhite evangelicals are the
people whose lives are notaffected at all.
And yet there's this enormouslandscape of internalized fear.
(04:11):
And it leaves you with thatquestion, like, fear of what?
And that's sort of what I wantto get into.
Fear of what?
Because for all the changes thatwe've seen in the United States
over the last century, for allthe, you know, it's been a lot
of change.
(04:34):
But the white conservativeProtestant is still at the
center of society, is stilldominant in most institutions.
And so it leaves you thinkinglike, afraid of what so when
when I bring up this topic I'mdoing it where I know that there
(04:54):
are so many other voices andfears from different from people
who are not white evangelicalChristians and it's almost like
I don't even necessarily want tohave another discussion about
white Christians but You seewhat I mean?
Like I don't want to necessarilycontinue to center that, but
(05:17):
these reactions are causing somuch destruction and so much
like paranoia and suffering forpeople that I think we need to
drill down a little bit.
And again, ask that question,afraid of what?
So when I bring that up, when Ibring up white evangelical fear
or tantrum, what are some ofthe, you're like, where do you
(05:40):
go initially with that?
SPEAKER_02 (05:42):
Yeah, I love that.
That's such a great question,such a great thing to ponder
over.
You know, I think of RichardRohr, right?
I'll tell you why I think ofRichard Rohr before.
You know, who throws tantrums?
Children, toddlers.
But physiologically speaking,that's understandable because
their bodies aren't mature yet.
(06:03):
Their emotional well-being,their brain isn't fully mature,
developed yet, right?
So there's a reason why wethen...
tell adults who throw tantrums,hey, you're being a little
childish right now.
And I think of the Apostle Paulwhere he says, when I was a
child, I talked like a child, Ithought like a child, spoke like
a child, but then I became anadult and there was
(06:27):
transformation.
Put away childish things.
Put away childish things,exactly.
Put away immaturity.
And so I think of Richard Rohrbecause Richard Rohr often talks
about how so many evangelicalChristians, really so many
Western Christians, have a veryimmature underdeveloped
Christian faith where and healso says that maybe one of the
(06:49):
reasons why we have immatureunderdeveloped faiths is because
maybe because of the trend ofgetting married younger and
having children younger so youknow I mean I think of this like
for my parents too my parentsmarriage is so different today
than when it was when I livedwith them and there's a reason
for that they've grown togetherthey're matured but When I go
(07:11):
visit my parents today, I seethem having a very different
relationship, almost apartnership in mutuality, right?
That was quite different from myupbringing.
Like my dad will say that thingsin the home are more patriarchal
and more hierarchical back whenwe lived in a society like that
in India.
And with time and experience andcontext come developments,
(07:32):
right?
And so it's the same thing.
I think many Westernevangelicals have a very
different childlike faith and achildlike way of looking at
Jesus in a bad way, becauseJesus said childlike faith is a
good
SPEAKER_00 (07:47):
thing.
Because childlike faith soundsgood.
Right.
But you mean like an immaturefaith?
Yeah, more like a
SPEAKER_02 (07:53):
childish faith than childlike faith, I guess, where
it's just very immature, veryreactionary.
You know, it's not nuanced.
It's not patient.
You know, it's not like thisbeautiful prayer of St.
Francis where we pray, we askfor strength not to console, not
(08:13):
to be consoled, but to console,not to be loved, but to love,
not to be understood, but tounderstand.
But that's not the posture of somuch of white evangelicalism.
It's a posture of, honestly,fragility so many times, you
know, where if you offend myevangelical sensibilities, I
deem you as a heretic.
(08:33):
I, you know, call for yourfiring, your expulsion,
expulsion, your death, you know,whatever.
Uh, and it's, it's so, it looks,it's so childish.
It looks nothing like Jesus atall at the end of the day.
SPEAKER_00 (08:44):
Yeah.
That was another line from Paulthat's sticking out to me right
this minute is when he's talkingabout like what love is, you
know, the classic weddingpassage, but that line, love
endures all things.
And that endurance of all thingsto me, that strikes of like
maturity and of flexibility, ofadaption, of creativity.
(09:09):
Like, we're dealing with thesecircumstances.
Maybe we've never dealt withthis before.
What does love do in thiscircumstance?
Sometimes you don't know what todo when society is changing,
let's say.
You don't know exactly how torespond or where things are
going to go.
But the abusive thing to do isto clamp down.
Try to, you know, put thingsback the way they used to be,
(09:33):
something like that.
That can only be accomplishedthrough violence.
That's the only way to forcesomething.
That's the closest thing we haveto a time machine is violence
because that's what we do to tryto force things back through
legislation or something.
But that's not love enduring andadapting and responding.
You know that one of the centralsort of philosophical tenets of
(09:55):
karate is mind like water.
SPEAKER_02 (09:57):
Wow.
SPEAKER_00 (09:58):
Which I think is just so powerful where it's like
water, you know, it will, itwill react in a, in the
appropriate corresponding waywhen it's like affected.
If you drop a rock in it, right.
It'll splash upwards, but veryquickly it tries.
What it's good at is returningback to stasis.
(10:20):
Mind like water, very powerfulconcept.
And honestly, like I can't thinkof something further.
from how I would characterizethe conservative evangelical
mindset of the last 120 years.
Mine like water, mine like fire.
Wow.
Wow.
SPEAKER_02 (10:40):
Yeah, I think of fire.
I think of waves by a beach,high tide.
I think of a tsunami.
Yeah, I actually lived in a citythat survived a tsunami in 2004.
Really?
I did, in Chennai, India, and itwas devastating.
And I think there's a reason whywater imagery is so prevalent
(11:03):
across scripture as well.
And I love that Eastern wisdomfrom Karate of a mind like
water.
I mean, I think of peace thatpasses all understanding at the
end of the day, peace thattranscends all understanding,
that phrase from scripture.
And I've often wrestled over thelast few months, ever since the
last election, really, what doesit mean for Christians, lay
(11:24):
Christians, but also clergy toembody peace a transcendent
peace, a peace that transcendsthe anxieties, the trauma, the
chaos of this world.
And I think I love that imageryof water because still water,
something serene about it,there's something peaceful,
(11:46):
restorative about it, butthere's something really
anxiety-inducing when you see atsunami coming towards you.
And I think, unfortunately,That's how our neighbors outside
the church likely experience thechurch right now.
They experience the church as atsunami and not as, you know, a
serene surface of water.
SPEAKER_00 (12:08):
Right.
Not as a grove, an oasis to cometo for rest and refreshment and
shade and safety.
And that's just so, it's sodisturbing and disappointing.
And that's why I'm wanting tosit here and be like, what is
going on?
And how long has this been goingon?
(12:30):
So, you know, what's yourinitial take?
If someone came up to you on thestreet and asked, why are
evangelicals throwing thistantrum?
What would you respond in thatmoment?
I'm just curious.
SPEAKER_02 (12:44):
Yeah, that's a good question.
I've been talking to afirefighter friend of mine, a
firefighter friend who fightsfires in Toronto, and his name's
Jeff.
And I've been picking his brainon something that I've been
processing that only someonewho's responded to situations
like that might have insight on.
But I've had this theory thatwhat we're seeing right now in
(13:06):
many ways is the last gasp of apeople who are afraid of losing
power, afraid of losing control,domination, status.
The threat may not even be real,because like you said, White
evangelicals hold significantpower and authority and
influence in the States, but thevery threat is enough.
(13:30):
And so there's this last gasp.
Patriarchy is dying away.
White supremacy is dying away.
It's ultimately gonna die away.
But you see this last gasp ofpeople trying to hold onto it.
And I was processing this withmy firefighter friend, Jeff, and
he was telling me, I've seenthis, it's real.
(13:53):
And when I'm with someone who'sdying, they have this last gasp,
they're about to die, but theyhave this last gasp where they
breathe in real hard and exhaleand that's it.
And he resonated with my lastgasp theory as a firefighter
(14:14):
because he sees this firsthandand that could very much explain
what we're seeing.
right now maybe that's a veryoptimistic perspective but
that's what i'm hoping for
SPEAKER_00 (14:22):
well i i don't think i've ever thought about where
the the saying came from lastgasp because i've heard you know
you tend to think of your lastbreath being sort of kind of
fading away taking you know lessand less and less of a breath
right but this description uhSounds like for some people,
(14:43):
there is literally a huge burstat the end.
SPEAKER_02 (14:46):
Yeah.
I mean, think about it.
After eight years of Obama, it'snot a coincidence that you see
the backlash or what some wouldcall the white lash of the most
unhealthy parts of whiteidentity coming out and having a
last gasp kind of moment.
No, we're going to.
do the exact opposite of what wejust had for the last eight
years.
(15:06):
And we almost had that here inCanada too.
But, you know, I think, I thinkthis stuff is real.
SPEAKER_00 (15:14):
That is, yeah, that, that aligns kind of with what
I'm thinking as well, as well aswith American history more
broadly, because this is, Theway that conservative
evangelicals are acting rightnow, generally as on a whole,
(15:35):
obviously there's exceptions toevery single thing anyone says
about anything.
Or as Richard
SPEAKER_02 (15:39):
Rohr would say, there are a few sane people who
make the rest look sane.
Right, yeah,
SPEAKER_00 (15:46):
yeah.
But this reaction to hold on topower and centrality is...
It's absolutely critical.
And for a long time, I tried inmany ways to separate whiteness
from Christian identity, kind oftreating them separately as kind
(16:11):
of two sometimes overlappingidentities that get tangled
together.
But with what we know fromintersectional studies, and
that's just...
That's the more lifelike way toanalyze something where you look
at all the intersectingidentities operating at once.
(16:33):
Conservative whiteevangelicalism and whiteness are
just, in so many ways, one andthe same.
That's not to say there's nohope that that doesn't have to
be that way.
There absolutely is.
But the way it's operated, theyhave been like two sides of a
coin.
(16:53):
And what I'm coming to realizeis the way evangelicals are
responding right now, you wouldthink that they had lost
something, something immense,something huge, that this is
like a painful trauma response,lashing out, hurting people the
way that like an animal would ifit was cornered, right?
(17:16):
And this is the strangeness ofthe situation, right?
Evangelicals are acting likethey're a cornered animal
lashing out when it's in so manyways that's imagined.
That's not real.
They are more likely to be theone cornering someone else, some
kind of marginalized group.
(17:38):
And so it's like I want to godown this rabbit hole because
why is that the situation?
Why is the white person...
so fragile.
And I know books have beenwritten on this and all that.
But when it comes to theevangelical identity, why is the
(17:58):
white Christian, the whiteProtestant in America so
ridiculously fragile?
Like an open wire that if youjust touch it, it blows.
Like what is with that?
I think that there hasn'tactually been any real
significant loss in Nothing, nosignificant material loss to
(18:21):
speak of.
Economically, no loss.
And I'm talking now about thecourse of the 20th century and
into the 21st.
White Protestants in America,economically, enormous growth.
Politically, like, that...
It's never been better.
It's never been better, right?
(18:44):
Cultural, like, as...
as for what group sort of getsto determine the mainstream,
normal, natural image of anAmerican family is a white
family in the suburbs.
But what I think, the one thingthat did change was in the
(19:07):
1960s, and this has somepredecessors before it, but
That's when things, the 1960sare when the conservative
evangelical really starts tolose their mind.
And I think what happened wasthe loss was the loss of
uncontested, unchallengedcultural dominance.
(19:30):
That itself is, you might lookat that and go, that's it?
Like, so now, you know, you justdon't get to have, you don't get
to just walk aroundunchallenged.
And that's enough to trigger anentire decades long movement of
like culture war.
(19:51):
Because I cannot find somethingthat says it more clearly than
that.
It just seems so pathetic.
And the part that's grating onme right now is, this is the
part that embarrasses me, isthat these people are at a
(20:14):
chemical level operating.
Chemically, these are traumaresponses.
And that's embarrassing becauseit's unfair.
It's unfair that we have to sithere and talk about white
evangelical trauma when theyhave inflicted so much trauma on
(20:35):
people, so much real trauma,like with real violence.
And we have to sit here and talkabout it give it the time of day
again because that trauma, thatgrief, again, this is
embarrassing,
SPEAKER_02 (20:52):
right?
It's embarrassing to even callit trauma.
I know.
As someone who works intrauma-informed spaces.
Exactly.
SPEAKER_00 (20:59):
But there is a grieving.
There's a grieving that is beingignored or denied.
It's hard to even say this, butit's grieving over losing the
world they once had, which againwas the unchallenged dominance.
(21:19):
And so you look at it and you'relike, these are suppressed grief
responses and trauma responsesthat are destroying lives and
totally corrupting a lot ofpeople's faith too.
And you're right.
It's embarrassing to even callit that, but that's what it is.
And so it leaves me thinkingwhat, What do you do then with
(21:43):
that?
SPEAKER_03 (21:44):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (21:45):
Because if you just lash out, if you just lash out,
that just re-entrenches it.
Right?
SPEAKER_01 (21:52):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (21:53):
So I'm curious what that brought up in you,
honestly.
SPEAKER_02 (21:59):
I think it just breaks my heart, to be honest.
I think it just brings so muchgrief to me that this is the
state of the world that we livein.
Right?
Because while you've got thesefolks who have their grievances,
so much of it from a place ofprivilege and power of just
losing that.
(22:20):
And none of this new, by theway, historically.
This has always existed in allcultures, all societies,
everywhere.
But it breaks my heart becauseit's a complete distraction from
the real grievances in the worldright now.
It's a complete distraction fromthe children being starved to
death in a blockade in Gazaright now, from children after
being bombed for like, monthsright like it's a complete
(22:43):
distraction from global hungerfrom global poverty from human
trafficking um from some of thedarkest things happening in the
world right now and and it'sjust this self-absorbed uh
persecution complex that blindsyou from what's happening in the
world around you right now thatkeeps you so focused on yourself
(23:04):
that and meanwhile you've gotthe power and the resources to
liberate our marginalizedneighbors, right?
And so this is why, you know,this is why I think historical
injustices like colonialism andwhite supremacy and things like
that, and I named this in thebook, I think this wasn't just
bad for the oppressed, it wasalso bad for the oppressor and
(23:26):
those who benefited from theoppression of their oppressed
neighbors, right?
And so it breaks my heart to seethis kind of disunity and
cognitive dissonance that iscaused by self-absorption and
being blind to the brokennessand the injustices and the need
(23:48):
in this world.
And what a missed opportunity.
What a wasted opportunity to,you know, I mean, just look at
all the money that's spent inpolitical elections.
US and Canada, all the moneythat's burned in election
cycles.
I worked in professionalpolitics.
I've been at these fundraisers.
I see how fear is such a strongmotivator to big pocket donors.
(24:12):
And all that money is beingburned on these political
conquests at home when you'vegot a world out there that's
suffering and you throw a fewdollars in chump change out
there for the world out there.
And then cancel it.
UNKNOWN (24:28):
Yeah.
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (24:30):
Right.
And, um, it's, it's just so,it's just so wrong and it's just
so messed up and, uh, it's, it'sreally frustrating.
So what I've tried to do is I'vetried to look for signs of hope,
you know, even as hard as it isto find right now, like, where
(24:51):
are you finding hope?
Where, uh, are you finding life?
You and justice, and youactually won't find that in the
halls of power.
So I tell people I looked forJesus in the halls of power when
I worked as a Georgia Republicanpolitical consultant.
I didn't find him there.
SPEAKER_00 (25:11):
That has to, we have to stop and talk about that.
You can't just drop that in thiskind of conversation.
Okay, so for those of you whodon't know, and this will shock
some people.
Shocker.
That Joash, do I have thisright?
You used to be a politicalconsultant for the Republicans
(25:34):
in Georgia.
SPEAKER_02 (25:35):
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (25:36):
One of the best.
I just, I, you, we have to likedivert.
You gotta say, you gotta tell ushow, how did you come to do that
and then be, be who you are now?
I just.
SPEAKER_02 (25:50):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, it's such a greatquestion.
It's like, what happened beforeJesus saved you again?
Right.
I get that question a lot.
Yeah.
So I think the story of that forme is deeply tied with my racial
identity as a person of color inAmerica.
So I moved to America at 18 fromIndia and I wanted to be as
(26:12):
American or as white really aspossible.
And so, you know, The GeorgiaRepublicans were in power at
that time, and I was like, I'mgoing to do it.
You're a teenager at this point?
I was 18 when I moved, and sowhen I was 19, still a teenager,
I started working in GeorgiaRepublican politics.
(26:37):
was quite good at it.
I started off as a policyadvisor and a communications
aide and then mostly workedcommunications.
I was chief of staff for a fewstate representatives.
My final year in university, Iwas writing speeches for the
former governor of Georgia andhis re-election campaign.
I started working on apresidential campaign.
I mean, did it all.
(26:57):
And then just made a lot ofmoney doing it.
And then eventually realized thecognitive dissonance that was
taking place where I was just ahired mercenary for people and
causes that I didn't reallybelieve in.
And I think the bottom pet forme was writing an opinion
(27:19):
editorial article for a clientrunning for Congress.
basically saying that legalimmigrants should be stopped
from coming to America through aspecific program called the
Diversity Visa Lottery programthat my family actually came to
the U.S.
through.
So I ghost wrote this opinionarticle.
About how that should bestopped.
About how that should bestopped.
When that's how you came toAmerica.
(27:40):
That's how I came.
Wow.
And so I did that and woke upthe next morning just being
like, what the hell did I justdo?
SPEAKER_00 (27:48):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (27:48):
Right.
And I think That's what powerdoes to you.
It robs your humanity.
That's what the allure ofcontrol and domination does to
us.
We weren't built to handle that,right?
And that's why I'm indiscernment to be a priest now
because I learned so much aboutthe brokenness of my humanity
from that and how my humanitywas suppressed from that pursuit
(28:12):
of power that it just started meon this quest of how do I be
human again?
How do I be human with God andneighbor again?
How do I liberate myself and myoppressed neighbors and those
who benefit from the oppression?
How do I liberate all of us,help liberate all of us from
this with God's help?
(28:35):
Because again, this isn't justbad for the humanity of our
marginalized neighbors.
It's also bad for our ownhumanity, right?
SPEAKER_00 (28:43):
So did you get pulled into it through like
young Republicans kind of thing?
Oh,
SPEAKER_02 (28:49):
yeah.
I was the chairman of the youngRepublicans on my university
campus.
So I was the one pulling othersin.
It's just so...
I can't blame anyone else.
I
SPEAKER_00 (29:00):
made my own choices there.
I take it you're not still aGeorgia Republican.
SPEAKER_02 (29:09):
I'm barely American these days.
I mean, I'm a Canadian now, apolitical independent.
But I will say that I watchedpeople change while I was there.
I watched people lose theirhumanity in the pursuit of
political power or access topolitical power.
(29:31):
You know, I was one of the threenever-Trump Republican political
consultants in Georgia in 2016.
That three individual people?
Yeah, which was a lot.
Like most states just had one atthat point.
Three never-Trump consultants.
Yeah, three never-Trump.
That's it.
That's it.
That's it.
And, you know, one of them tookover a lot of my clients after I
(29:57):
left and is now the right-handguy to the governor of Florida.
who is kind of a big deal, ranfor president as well.
Um, so that was the path I washeaded on.
Uh, you know, Ron DeSantis isright hand guy.
Um, really?
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's the guy who took overmost of my clients.
He's now Ron DeSantis is righthand guy.
That was the path.
(30:18):
And he was, he was a never Trumpguy.
And the other never Trump guy,I'm taking names here by the way
today, but the other never Trumpguy as this guy named Eric
Erickson, who's a massive rightwing political commentator, a
radio host.
And he, uh, he's now a verypro-Trump guy, right?
And I mean, like I took my standand look, like I have friends
(30:39):
who, not to make this aboutTrump, right?
Like he's a human being, Godloves him, right?
I have friends who support himbecause they see other things in
him still.
But the reality is, you know, Isaw people change.
I saw people betray their ownvalues.
You know, regardless of what youthink about the president of the
United States today, if you wentfrom a place of, I can't stand
(31:02):
this guy, I won't put this guyon TV in my household because I
don't know what he'll say infront of my kids, which I've had
Republican state legislators saythat to me on inauguration day,
2016.
If you've gone from that tolike, worshiping the guy now and
believing that he's God's best,you know, God's second son and
(31:22):
all of that, something hashappened to your humanity and
you've changed, right?
And so I've changed, sure.
I've moved in the direction ofliberation for all my neighbors,
but they've changed too.
And I saw the Republican Partychange from the inside too.
And it's not the same party thatI worked in and hope to be a
(31:43):
reforming voice within.
People have to take their ownjourneys.
And I mean, I wouldn't havethought back then that I'll be
here today.
So if you have people stillcaught up in that cult or any
cult, whether it's the MAGA cultor the white evangelical cult in
the US in many spaces, It's notthe end of the story for them.
(32:08):
It's not the end of the rope forthem because there's always hope
and there's always redemptionthat's possible.
if we have the courage toembrace that journey and humble
ourselves and learn at the feetof our marginalized neighbors.
And that's really what wastransformative for me, learning
from survivors of abuse whiledoing human rights work, both
within and outside the church.
(32:29):
That's where I met Jesus.
So I didn't meet Jesus in thehalls of power where I expected
to find him.
I met Jesus on the margins.
And that's where he rescued meand liberated me and put me on
this path towards working forthe collective liberation of my
neighbors.
SPEAKER_00 (32:47):
Man, I mean, I have a feeling.
That's my real testimony.
Yeah, that story probably has somuch more detail that we could
go into.
Maybe we'll slowly open it up.
Because the other thing I wasthinking was you, important for
your kind of transformation wasreturning to your indigenous
(33:11):
roots Homeland, wasn't it?
SPEAKER_02 (33:12):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And doing human rights workthere for a year.
I mean, I did that before the2016 elections and it was
transformative.
It messed with me.
Yeah.
Such a good point.
But the indigenous nature ofthat is
SPEAKER_00 (33:27):
beautiful.
I appreciate you calling thatout.
The dissonance you must haveexperienced with just in
general, but then writing thatletter, that editorial must have
just been unbearable.
Like that kind of dissonance.
SPEAKER_02 (33:39):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (33:40):
Wow.
SPEAKER_02 (33:40):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I just remember, I mean, Iwrite this in the book, by the
way, I share the story in thebook, but I remember talking to
a wise older woman who was avolunteer.
One of the campaigns I managedback then telling her about what
I just did for the othercampaign.
And she looked me in the eye andshe was Jesus to me in that
(34:03):
moment.
She was my, she was a Holyspirit to me in that moment.
She looked me in the eye.
She was like, Oh, I told her, Idon't know.
what I should do here.
She looked me in the eye andsaid, I think you know what you
need to do, Joash.
The very next day, I closedshop.
(34:23):
Closed down your consultingfirm?
Closed down my consulting firm.
I had offers for acquisitionsfrom public affairs firms in
D.C.
that were later indicted in afederal scandal, but that's
another story for another time.
I had offers to sell my firm,but I was like, what have I
(34:43):
done?
And it was too heavy for me.
And so yeah, so I closed theshop and was unemployed for a
couple of months trying tofigure out life.
And a couple of months later, Imoved to DC, took a 50% pay cut,
started working in internationalhuman rights.
(35:05):
And I haven't looked back sincethen.
SPEAKER_00 (35:07):
It's a real, true, you know, the Greek word
metanoia, for conversion, likean eye-opening, right?
And that's one of those.
That's the story of metanoia.
SPEAKER_02 (35:21):
Totally.
And I think we need to have oureyes opened to the beauty of God
and to the need for liberationfor our neighbors every single
day.
You know, like, sure, this was abig moment in my life, but this
is why...
I'm sacramental.
This is why I need Eucharist.
Experience Jesus through theEucharist every single week
(35:41):
because I need Jesus every week,right?
Like, I mean, I've beenprocessing this in my
Pentecostal to sacramentaljourney.
I'm switching gears frompolitics to theology a little
bit here.
But like, you know, in mytradition growing up, you do
altar calls where you invitepeople to come up front and
receive Jesus.
And we'd laugh at the kids who'dgo up every Sunday, right?
(36:02):
That's what the sacramentaltradition is.
At the end of every service,Mass, you've Eucharist, where
you come and experience Jesus.
You come and receive Jesus atthe table.
And when you do that, you'republicly proclaiming your need
for a Savior every single week.
And there's beauty in that,because we don't just receive
Jesus in our lives one time,according to evangelical myth,
(36:24):
right?
You need him every single day.
You receive him every singleweek.
And so this whole glorificationof a moment of justification, a
moment where you're saved, it'sis honestly a load of crap.
Because what you're also sayingin the same breath is, well,
then I don't need Jesus afterthat.
Because I'm good.
I made my decision.
(36:45):
I'm escaping from here toheaven.
My ticket's punched.
But we need Jesus fortransformation in our lives
every single day.
SPEAKER_00 (36:53):
Yeah, that's good.
And I mean, the evangelicalaltar call is also the part of
it that really grates on me isthat in effect, it negates
everything that came before thatmoment as illegitimate because
you're saying I wasn't really aChristian.
I've written on this in mythesis somewhat because
(37:17):
evangelicalism really thrives incrisis.
That's what it knows.
And that connects well with whatwe're talking about this week.
Because the evangelicaltradition is a crisis
intervention kind ofChristianity.
SPEAKER_02 (37:32):
Wow.
SPEAKER_00 (37:32):
That's how it began, right?
People at those camp meetings,at these revival tents, kind of
just putting their emotions ontheir sleeve and feeling
whatever their shame, you know,there was rampant alcoholism in
the United States during therevivals and people were like
(37:53):
filled with shame about that and
SPEAKER_03 (37:55):
So
SPEAKER_00 (37:56):
people had these intense emotions and hit rock
bottom, really had nowhere leftto go and experience some
encounter with God at thesemeetings, right?
SPEAKER_02 (38:07):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (38:08):
And I think the evangelical tradition, that was
its initial strength, wasproviding some kind of lifeline
to someone at rock bottom.
How it then discipled people,right?
following that crisis conversionwas usually was often pretty
troubling and problematicbecause as a Christian tradition
(38:32):
it was pretty weak but it couldthis is the image I used in my
dissertation it's like adefibrillator wow but a
defibrillator is it's a powerfulthing that can like bring your
heart back to life but you don'twant to put one of those on when
you're You don't want to putthat on when you're just walking
(38:55):
around.
SPEAKER_01 (38:56):
Wow.
SPEAKER_00 (38:56):
Or like, what does recovery look like?
Because that defibrillator mightmake your heart start again.
But like, what is the long roadof recovery looking like?
And that's what, in a way,that's what discipleship is.
The long road of recovery.
Recovering our humanity.
Recovering our humanity.
And like some of the ancientChristians thought, that
(39:18):
recovery process sometimesdoesn't end with death.
that recovery process continues.
SPEAKER_03 (39:24):
Beautiful.
SPEAKER_00 (39:24):
Right?
Like, like Isaac of Nineveh orIsaac the Syrian, right?
That recovery.
Now he was working with like theidea of your soul recovering,
but like, you know, there's alot of overlap there of your
true humanity, right?
And so even I've asked, youknow, myself, why, why is our
(39:45):
evangelicals, if, whiteevangelicals in America, if they
have traditionally occupied thehalls of power and the halls of
financial success, there's twoquestions.
Why so much sense of loss andwhy so much fear?
(40:06):
And I've wondered that tomyself.
Why react so immaturely whenthings change a bit, when there
are challenges?
And I think the answer is thediscipleship that a
fundamentalist or an evangelicalwould go through because it is
teaching them that everything iswar, a battle, spiritual battle,
(40:32):
a battle for the culture.
We're drifting away from ourChristian roots and we have to
do whatever we can to get itback.
And the list of consequences areusually very dire.
And everything from If we don'tget this culture back, it's just
going to be rampant crime andimmorality.
No one's going to believe in Godanymore or care.
(40:52):
Everyone's going to go to hell.
SPEAKER_02 (40:54):
Such an anxious faith.
SPEAKER_00 (40:56):
Yes, so anxious.
And if the evangelical church asa whole was sitting in a
therapist's office, which manyof them wouldn't dare to, the
therapist would say, okay, wehave some serious problems here
and some serious work to do.
There is some real...
like incredibly unhealthydynamics at work.
(41:18):
If it was reduced to one family,it would be a nightmare.
Oh, goodness.
So I guess that connects withthe evangelical tantrum.
On the one hand, it's rooted in,again, this is the embarrassing
part that I still don't fullyknow what to do with.
I think the feelings I'm feelingare almost, yeah, embarrassment
or shame, humiliation, becauseit's like, it's pathetic, right,
(41:41):
to be feeling...
to be talking about whiteevangelical grief and trauma,
but the brains of the people inthese communities is releasing
trauma chemicals at the veryidea that they don't have
(42:02):
unchallenged dominance anymore.
So why do you think there wassuch a conservative collective
mind losing in the 60s, right?
Well, it was like a convergenceof civil rights, of feminism, of
even early queer visibility, ofallowing for non-European
(42:26):
immigration, which I thinkchanged in the mid-60s.
And then you have thecounterculture, which is often
white youth criticizing theUnited States and its idea that
it's exceptional.
And it's like, those things allat once, again, none of those
groups gained a bunch of power.
(42:48):
They just were more vocal aboutcontesting the unchallenged
dominance of white patriarchy,Christian patriarchy.
SPEAKER_02 (42:57):
Yeah, that's so true.
And I mean, you know, we've beentalking about white grief and
trauma this whole time, which Ithink it's safe to say we've
narrowed down that so much ofthis is self-induced from
historical sources.
multi-generational participationand the oppression of our
marginalized neighbors aroundthe world.
Well, I see that in non-whitecommunities too.
(43:19):
I don't think this is a problemthat's exclusive to white people
who've been accustomed to powerand privilege.
I see that with brown people tooin India where you have an upper
caste reactionary movement inmany ways right now to the
liberation of lower casteneighbors.
(43:40):
And you've got a lot ofChristians like my ancestors and
my St.
Thomas Indian Christiancommunity that's benefited from
the oppression of our lowercaste neighbors that now feels
oppressed in the States andvotes the same way that many
white evangelicals who feeloppressed vote.
But the reality is, dude, you'reliving in the US.
You made it out.
(44:01):
You've enjoyed the benefits ofthe world in the West.
Why do you feel oppressed?
You're doing quite well.
Your family's doing quite well.
Again, why are you so threatenedby the loss of power?
SPEAKER_00 (44:15):
Threatened by the loss, by the fact that white
Christians are losing, in airquotes, losing power?
SPEAKER_02 (44:26):
To a degree, yes, but also that Christian values,
as defined by the white man inmany ways, can lose power.
That the elevation of, and thisis why many people in my family
voted the way they did in thelast election, it's because of
(44:47):
the fear of their LGBTQneighbors and all the
transphobia there, the fear ofsocial upheaval and you know,
what'll happen next in society,you know, kind of like that
fear.
But in reality, the kingdom ofGod coming in upsets the old
order of things to make way forGod's new creation, right?
(45:08):
The old must pass away asscripture says, so that the new
can be ushered in.
And the old passing away or thethreat of the old passing away
is intimidating, is nervewracking to people who only been
accustomed to power andprivilege.
But as Christians, we're notcalled to power and privilege.
We're called to faithfulness.
We're called to give up powerand privileges so that others
(45:31):
may have life who haven'texperienced life so far, right?
And we're called to oppose thesystems that obstruct life for
our marginalized neighbors.
But when we get accustomed topower and privilege and control,
and when we start to worshipthese things, we lose sight of
the gospel of Jesus, which isgood news to the poor and the
oppressed.
And we start acting weird.
(45:52):
And childish and overly dramaticand with tantrums.
And
SPEAKER_00 (45:59):
being willing to lie for the sake of...
There's got to be some peopleout there who know that some of
the ways they're spinning thesestories are lies.
This isn't just, I didn'trealize it.
There's got to be people outthere who know exactly what
they're doing.
But there's a willingness to liefor some greater...
(46:20):
again, air quotes, good.
The greater evil, really.
I do think the white Protestantmale, the white male Protestant,
you're right when you sayaccustomed to power and
privilege.
And that almost doesn't captureit because that's almost too
tame.
It's like that's all thatthey've ever known
SPEAKER_03 (46:44):
in
SPEAKER_00 (46:44):
America.
Since the moment that At least,you know how the United States
has a number of origin stories,right?
They kind of get blendedtogether, but one of them is the
New England, the Puritans.
Yeah, the Mayflower.
Right, the Mayflower originstory.
Like the moment they get off theboat in Massachusetts Bay, it's
(47:10):
like the moment they step footon the ground, it's like this
spell happens of, well, this isours, right away.
There's not even a day ofthinking, can we just take this
land?
And right away, this is reallyhow it happened.
They began, this image alwaysmakes me feel so, for lack of a
(47:34):
better word, just cringe.
It is cringe American history.
It's what they start doingalmost right away is writing up
these land deeds for themselvesand giving them to each other.
And you're like, oh, all of thisprivate ownership of land, which
is the heartbeat ofcolonization.
SPEAKER_02 (47:56):
Or as Willie James Jennings says, to the
colonizer's mind, to know athing is to own a thing.
SPEAKER_00 (48:02):
Right.
All of this obsession withconquest, with stealing,
conquering, tricking indigenouspeople out of land, however you
want to do it, it's based on afantasy.
made up title.
And it's like, you can actuallyget to the last one and say,
(48:24):
there's nothing under here, butan idea, but a fantasy.
And so that's like, that's dayone.
SPEAKER_02 (48:30):
Yeah.
And think about where we aretoday, right?
Where you want to protect it somuch from anyone who looks
different that you will kick outand do mass deportations of
families, hardworking,contributing to the economy,
law-abiding, you'll kick themout just because they look
different or speak a differentlanguage.
And who will you bring in?
(48:51):
Look at who they're bringing in.
They're not even trying to hideit.
You bring in people who looklike you.
who also have a similar history.
And you support nations aroundthe world that look like yours,
that also have similarhistories, right?
It's the powerful protecting thepowerful.
This is what empire does at theend of the day.
SPEAKER_00 (49:11):
I was looking at, you know, doing some research
into when was the high, when wasthe zenith of white male
Christian dominance in America?
And, you know, because...
That's a tall mountain range,right?
Because there's a lot of heightsof white male Christian
dominance.
(49:32):
But interestingly, the heightwas after World War II, and it
was high before.
But a lot of the changes thathappened that made conservative
evangelicals lose their mind inthe 60s were born out of the
40s, because you have theAmerican men going off to war,
(49:54):
and All the imagery there,people forget that there was a
huge group of African Americanand Native American soldiers
fighting for the US.
The image that getspropagandized is the white
Christian American hero.
And in their absence, women areworking in the factories,
(50:16):
building the bombs and weapons.
And women are experiencing aworld that they had never
experienced.
African Americans fighting overin the U.S., fighting in Germany
against Nazis who aresegregating people based on
ethnic and religious identity,there starts to, a hope starts
(50:38):
to develop there that like we'refighting here, the double
victory it was called, fightingfascism away and racism at home.
And there was an expectation andtotally rightfully so that when
we get back to the U.S., Wedismantle segregation.
We are here risking our lives,fighting against racism.
SPEAKER_02 (50:59):
Wow,
SPEAKER_00 (50:59):
wow.
SPEAKER_02 (51:00):
If I can jump in there.
Please do.
I haven't put two and twotogether on this until now, but
my people have a similarhistory.
Most people in the West don'tknow this, but there were
thousands of Indians who foughtin World War II on behalf of the
British Empire.
And on behalf of the Allies, wefought for the liberation of
Europe, of Asia, and sacrificedmuch.
(51:23):
Never talked about.
And why did we fight?
We fought because we werepromised by the British Empire
that we will give you freedomand independence at home.
Just help us out.
World War I, help us out.
We'll give you independence.
Nothing.
World War II, again, help usout.
Give us independence.
And at this point, Gandhi isdoing a movement and the Indian
leaders are doing a movementcalled the Quit India Movement.
And again, promises not kept.
(51:47):
The British would not have givenIndia independence had Gandhi
not...
done what he did yeah yeahGandhi and the other freedom
fighters and and even then theyrefused to give us World War II
ended 1945 we only got ourindependence 1947 there were two
years that we could have got ourindependence but they didn't
give it to us because they hadno intent to and when they did
(52:07):
give it to us only on theirterms of divide and conquer so
partition and leading tomillions of more people
SPEAKER_00 (52:14):
and
SPEAKER_02 (52:14):
yeah
SPEAKER_00 (52:15):
yeah that's very similar and you know the black
vets come back and Americansociety, the federal government,
all the states, everyone'sinterested in trying to get
things back to normal.
And in order to do that, theyknow that the US has boomed
economically because of the war.
(52:36):
So there's a lot of money.
There's a lot of production.
There's a lot of new jobs.
So I mean, first of all, all thewomen are sent back home.
forced to leave the workforce inmass numbers, even after having
tasted this different way ofliving.
And then through a variety ofpropaganda on radio, in
(52:59):
pamphlets and stuff like that,sort of re-entrenching the
goodness of the domestichousewife.
That is a propaganda campaignafter World War II to get women
to go back to the way thingswere.
The cracks are forming, though.
The cracks are already formed.
You get the black vets comingback and the white vets.
(53:21):
And the federal government comesup with the GI Bill.
That's what it's called, right?
You probably know this history.
But the GI Bill to subsidizehousing.
I can't remember all thespecifics.
Education.
Yeah, education.
Free education or at leastheavily subsidized interest-free
loans, which is whysuburbanization happens, right?
UNKNOWN (53:44):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (53:45):
So you have all this money and all this like hope and
promise and these black vetsreturned to segregation and
they're like, nothing'schanging.
SPEAKER_02 (53:54):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (53:54):
This stays the same.
And what I learned in some ofthis research was like those
African-Americans most likely tobe harassed, beaten or lynched
were people who wore theiruniform in public.
It was seen as like haughty andarrogant and stuff just for fun.
Black vets.
(54:14):
Wow.
And they, while legally, theywere completely entitled to
every benefit in the GI Bill,there's nothing in it that
discriminates racially,officially, but at every single
step.
You know, as a vet, I'm entitledto an interest-free loan.
(54:34):
The bank says, no.
As a vet, I'm entitled to, youknow, free education.
We don't accept...
black people into thisuniversity.
So it's like all the benefitsare completely withheld,
obstructed at every end.
It was so rare.
All the while, white culture isfleeing the inner city, getting
(54:59):
as far away, you know the termwhite flight, as far away as you
can from and building thesuburbs, extreme wealth.
The inner cities lose their taxbase.
They plunge into poverty, whichis then blamed on the
marginalized who are livingthere.
And then what this brings me tois this is now the 1950s, which
(55:22):
is the great romanticizedfantasy era that MAGA and others
like them look back on.
And it's like it was this briefmoment where white supremacy,
white Christian supremacy, juststood up tall again and said,
we're going to make things likethis.
(55:44):
And there's this heroic image ofthe white soldier and all the
happy pictures of the housewifeand the suburbs and the madmen
kind of propaganda.
Totally.
And it's like ever since the1950s, even though all the
cracks were there now, Civilrights movement begins because
the dissonance, like youexperienced almost, but kind of
(56:05):
the other side of it, thedissonance is too much.
As an African-American vet,you're like, I did not give my
life.
My buddies didn't give theirlife so we could come back and
be second class.
And it supercharges civilrights.
And it supercharges feminism.
And all the various othermovements that white
evangelicals look at as a threatand then try to spiritualize why
(56:30):
it's a threat.
And so I think it's like MakeAmerica Great Again, it's like
we need to go back to all theexamples end up sounding like
the 50s.
SPEAKER_02 (56:41):
Yeah, and it's ultimately this vision of I feel
like I need to be on top bysubjugating everyone else around
me.
Women, even white women,subjugate them, you know,
domesticate them, segregatethem, dominate them.
And that's kind of the visionhere.
I get on top by subjugatingeveryone, which is actually not
(57:02):
the way of Jesus.
You don't say.
It's not the way of Jesus,because the way of Jesus is not
to be the master of all, but tobe the servant of all.
And that's where you find Jesus.
Is it any...
wonder that we find jesus thenon the margins of society and
not at the top because he cameand integrated himself into the
(57:23):
margins of society at his timebut we have this christian
nationalist movement today thatwants to dominate power and you
know dominate and subjugate andsegregate our neighbors so that
we can put jesus on top jesus isalready on top and jesus still
chooses to identify with thebottom and there's something
there for people who findourselves at the top or
(57:45):
benefiting from the proximity tothe top to reconcile with and to
give away our wealth and ourresources and our power for the
sake of our neighbors on thebottom so that they may have
life and life to the fullest,the life that Jesus always
intended for them.
SPEAKER_00 (58:02):
It's beautiful.
See, that's life-giving, thatvision.
That's backwards.
That's upside down.
But in our bones, we know that'sthe world we want to live in.
And my last thought is, youknow, I think sometimes about
when Jesus asks us to, tells usto pray for our enemies.
(58:25):
And, you know, that passage issometimes used, you know, to
enable, enable like, you know,like when forgiveness gets
abused or it's like someoneabused someone in church and we
have to forgive or whatever.
And it's just like, something'snot right here.
This isn't thick and full andtrue.
(58:45):
This is not reconciliation.
So I think the same thing withlove your enemies.
And then it made me think, whotaught Jesus what loving your
enemies looked like?
And I thought, well, his mom,Mary, taught Jesus what loving
your enemies looked like.
(59:06):
And I can imagine, so I startedto think, what does loving your
enemies look like If you'reMary, what are you praying for?
Pray for your enemies.
Well, she prays that the richand powerful are thrown down.
And I think that if you havebecome accustomed to the top, to
(59:28):
the cushy comforts that alsojust activate your full-on
animal primal fears when peopleeven think about challenging it,
then what you need is to bethrown down from your throne.
And then...
SPEAKER_02 (59:45):
Because that's good for you.
SPEAKER_00 (59:46):
Because that's good for you.
And you find yourself then downat the bottom.
And that's like where your realjourney begins.
So good.
SPEAKER_02 (59:56):
So good.
Yeah.
May we lean into that.
And may we even throw ourselvesto the bottom so that God
doesn't have to humble us andthrow ourselves out there.
SPEAKER_00 (01:00:06):
Love that.
Well, thanks so much for beinghere with me again.
I already can't wait for nexttime.
And yeah, thanks everyone forlistening.
This is a joy.
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