January 17, 2022 • 13 mins
Western SARE completed our second season of Fresh Growth. Thank you for listening! As we are working toward Season 3, we are sharing some special podcasts by Washington State University students.
In this episode, you'll hear from 5th generation farmer Allen Druffel, Bar Star Farm, as he talks about their use of no-till practices since the 1990s.
Student team: Kayleigh Brown, Mathew Morse, Mackenzie Cunningham, Martha Lum
____________
Thanks for listening to Fresh Growth! To learn more about Western SARE and sustainable agriculture, visit our website or find us:
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Contact us at wsare@montana.edu
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hello, and welcome to fresh growth.
A podcast by the Western Sarahprogram that sustainable
agriculture research andeducation just for background
Western, Sarah is funded by theus department of agriculture's
national Institute of food andagriculture to promote
sustainable farming and ranchingacross the American west through
search education andcommunication efforts.
Like this podcast, we arepreparing for our third season,
(00:25):
which we'll launch on February.
First.
In the meantime, we are sharingspecial podcasts produced by
students in Washington, stateuniversities, introduction to
agricultural and food systems,class, the students interview
producers and ag leaders on avariety of topics.
We hope you enjoy and learn fromtheir work.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
My name is McKenzie.
I am here with my group members,Martha Kayley, and Matthew.
We are all students atWashington state university.
And today we're gonna be talkingabout no-till production
practices.
Speaker 3 (00:59):
Tilling the soil has been a prominent practice in
farming for many years.
However, recently it's come toour attention and the attention
of many farmers andagriculturalists that tilling
your soil may be doing more harmthan good.
Today.
We are here with Alan ruffle whocan give us some insight on the
fact of the matter concerning notill farming Alan, on behalf of
(01:19):
our members here, we'd like toextend a warm welcome to you,
and thank you for taking thetime to meet with us.
I'm gonna pass the mic to you,Allen, so you can give us a
brief introduction of yourselfand what you do.
Perfect.
Speaker 4 (01:32):
Well, thank you.
And thank you guys for havingme.
It's, uh, it's always a pleasureto work with, uh, the
universities in our area and,and cuz it's a joint effort to
promote soil health and, andconservation practices.
So I'm a fifth generationfarmer.
Uh, we have the opportunity tolive in the homestead.
(01:54):
We, we homesteaded our farm in1876 and, and I've been on the
same ground ever since our farmhas expanded quite a bit, both,
uh, in acres and geographically,we we're very diverse.
We farm about 50 miles from oneend of the farm to the other,
uh, in, in significantlydifferent rainfall zones.
(02:15):
Uh, dad started with no-till inthe mid 1990s.
And so we've, we've been at itfor about 30 years.
He, at that time, you know, theydidn't really know what they
were doing.
And so it was kind of a guessinggame and uh, they were, they
were leaders in this arena atthat time.
(02:35):
And so they, they got togetherwith a group of farmers and
started buying equipment andtrying different things.
And then in the early twothousands, about 2002, 2003, uh,
we bought our own equipment itand converted our farm to a
hundred percent no-till uh, andbeen doing it since, uh, we
thought really thought nearearly stages no-till was the
(02:57):
silver bullet.
That was what was going tochange our farm.
And as we got farther intono-till, there were challenges,
uh, and there, there were brightspots, but what we realized that
it's only a piece of the puzzleand, and with no-till now we
started working on much morediverse crop rotations and per
(03:19):
crops and changing our fertilitypractices and, and looking at
the soil biology, not just thesoil chemistry and, and as we
have kind of progressed, we're,we're starting to get dialed
into what is improving our soiland we're starting to see our
organic matters rise and be ableto reduce our synthetic, uh,
(03:43):
fertilizer inputs.
And so, you know, this day, itwe're pretty proud of where we
are, but there is a very longways to go on our farm.
Speaker 3 (03:51):
Perfect.
Thank you so much, Alan.
That's awesome.
30 years of farming, man.
I can't imagine that.
That's awesome.
Speaker 4 (04:00):
Well, that's 30 years in.
No, till, you know, we've beendoing 30
Speaker 3 (04:03):
Years in.
No till
Speaker 4 (04:04):
Thank you.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
We've been farming on the sameproperty.
Uh, 20, 26 will be 150 years.
Speaker 3 (04:12):
Oh wow.
That's awesome.
All right.
Well, I'd like to start gettinginto some of our questions that
we've got for you today.
Our first question for is howdoes no-till compare to
conventional farming practicesand what effect does it have on
your production outcome?
Speaker 4 (04:29):
You know, there there's some similarities
between conventional farmingpractices and no-till farming
practices.
I don't really like the wordconventional farming practice.
It's only conventionally farmedfor about 150 years.
If you look at modern Americanagriculture, you know, since
(04:49):
the, the era of the plow, we'vereally only been at this for
about 150 years, which in it's,it's a blink of an eye in, in
this scheme of things.
And so to call what we're doingor what my dad did at the
beginning of his career,conventional, that's a really
hard, hard term for me toaccept.
(05:10):
Uh, and, and, and I'm not sureno-till is the exact answer that
we're looking for.
You know, we use some of thesame equipment, the same big
tractors, and, and we're usingthe, some of the same synthetic
inputs, but as far as what we'redoing with soil, it's completely
different.
We, we're not opening that soilup every year.
(05:31):
We leave the previous residue onthe soil, the armor and, and put
the seed into the ground with asminimal disturbance as we can.
And, and so we feel that we are,and we don't feel, we know that
we're rebuilding our soil and,and introducing biological
activity in some organic matterinto it.
A as far as production results,it's been varied.
(05:54):
Um, in the beginning when wewere learning, essentially just,
you know, how to use theequipment there, there were some
struggles and, and we saw a dipin our production, but we're
back, uh, producing as much ormore than a, a conventional
farming system where we alsohave to look at as more than
just a, uh, a gross production.
(06:17):
We, we really look at a net, youknow, maybe there's some times
that we don't produce quite asmuch as that overall yield as,
as a, a super high inputsynthetic input neighbor, but
our return is better monetarilybecause our, our decrease in
inputs and as well as, uh, ourincrease in, in soil health,
(06:40):
that value is really hard toquantify, but it's there and
it's important.
And, and as we move forward,looking at that value as long
as, as well as sequesteringcarbon, those two values are
gonna have to be really lookedat as part of the, the no till
sustainable production model.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
Thank you.
Um, and I think that that was aperfect segue into our next
question.
When you say that you leave soilresidues and, uh, you're
reintroducing organic matterinto your soil, does that ever
cause, um, in your experience,uh, challenges in no-till
farming?
Speaker 4 (07:18):
Yeah, that's a, that's a good question.
And, and absolutely it doesevery, you know, benefit from
the residue comes with a, achallenge we've ran into, you
know, challenges, as simple asthe seed has a hard time growing
through the residue that therejust gets to be so much of it,
(07:38):
uh, to, to more complexchallenges where there's, uh,
chemical holdovers tied up inthat residue that don't break
down the same way as if theywere buried with a conventional
tillage system.
Uh, and so it's, it's been alearning curve and, and we, we
have seen it, but the, thebenefits long term far outweigh
(07:59):
the short term challenges.
And, and we're willing to workthrough a lot of these issues to
get where we want to be, whichis return into soil to what it,
what it once was.
Uh, and I'm not sure I'll getthere in my lifetime, but I, I
(08:20):
sure hope that I have a goodstart.
That
Speaker 3 (08:23):
Is a really good piece of information for, um,
people who may listen to this,because it gives them a little
bit more of an insight on, um,how even the better alternatives
to farming practices can stillcause challenges in your
production.
Would you, would you agree withthat statement?
Speaker 4 (08:42):
Absolutely.
You know, there's always gonnabe challenges with any
production system and, uh,there's gonna be highs and lows
in each one.
So, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (08:53):
All right.
And our last question that wehad here since we're getting a
little bit closer to our time iscan no-till farming be applied
on a smaller scale and say ahome garden for those who aren't
involved in bigger productions?
And if so, how, how can smallhomesteaders incorporate that
into their individual practices?
Speaker 4 (09:13):
Yeah.
You know, obvious say I we're,I'm pretty focused on large
scale, uh, agriculture, but I, Idon't see any reason why it
couldn't carry over into smallscale.
What, to me, the exciting partabout small scale is the ability
to amend the soil in a way toreally accelerate the benefit
(09:35):
it's of, of a zero tillageenvironment.
For those plants.
We, we work with really tightmargins on really, really big
acres.
And so when we change somethingand, and have to spend 10,$20 an
acre, that's a lot of money forus.
Uh, but on a small scale, ifyou, you spend, you know, 50 an
(09:56):
acre, which, uh, most smallscales, not even gonna be an
acre on, on the home garden,it's gonna be, you know, an
eighth of an acre and you canamend it with things like the,
you know, WSU has a wonderfulorganic compost that, that we've
even put in our fields.
Uh, but again, it, it priced usout, but where you could amend
with that, uh, it would befantastic.
(10:18):
And, and to be able to watch thebiology come to life in that
accelerated manner and, and, andstart producing healthier crops,
and it would be so exciting.
And then you're gonna see thosebenefits more directly in your
food, because typically you'regonna be growing fresh
vegetables and things that areeaten directly at, outta your
garden.
We're going into some marketsthat, that aren't direct to
(10:42):
consumer, but they are field toconsumer.
So we'll go into a mill with ourgrain or, uh, into a processing
plant with our pulse crops and,and have hummus and flour and
things like that.
But in that home garden whereyou can, uh, grow your soil and,
and have this absolutely healthymicrobiology and, and micro
(11:04):
sphere under the soil to growthose healthy crops and then put
'em on your plate at night, thatwould be the ultimate reward.
And no till will absolutelywork.
Uh, you just, you know, they'll,they'll be a little tillage to
get your, your seed in theground, poke a little hole seed
in, but I, I don't see anyreason why that wouldn't work.
Speaker 3 (11:21):
I think that that's really important for people to
know, too, that even on thesmaller scale at home, you can,
you can still reach the benefitsthat bigger productions use or
maintain with their moresustainable approaches to their
production.
And I think that people can hearthis and really be inspired to
(11:43):
take action on their own land,so that across many geographical
areas, more people are reachingthose same results and overall
achieving those goals of asustainable production in their
home gardens.
Speaker 4 (11:55):
Absolutely.
You know, it doesn't take oneperson to change the world.
It takes us all doing a littlebit and, and the home gardens
are gonna be an amazing startfor that.
Uh, and, and as us, as, as largescale producers, we need to rise
to the challenge and lead thatmovement change is gonna take
everybody.
And it's important for me on myfarm to, to help drive that
Speaker 3 (12:21):
I'd like to extend the thank you again for meeting
with us today and giving us allof us valuable information about
no till and sustainableapproaches to gardening and
farming.
And I really admire your familyfor how long that they have been
using your guys' land forproduction.
That's really incredible.
And you guys, it sounds like youguys are doing really incredible
things there.
(12:43):
So thank you again, Alan, formeeting with us, and we
appreciate the valuable insight,and we hope that you have a
wonderful rest of your day.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
Thank you for listening to fresh growth.
We hope you enjoyed this episodefor more information on
westerner grounds and ourlearning resources visit
westerner.org.
Hello, and welcome to fresh growth.
A podcast by the Western Sarahprogram that sustainable
agriculture research andeducation just for background
Western, Sarah is funded by theus department of agriculture's
national Institute of food andagriculture to promote
sustainable farming and ranchingacross the American west through
search education andcommunication efforts.
Like this podcast, we arepreparing for our third season,
(00:25):
which we'll launch on February.
First.
In the meantime, we are sharingspecial podcasts produced by
students in Washington, stateuniversities, introduction to
agricultural and food systems,class, the students interview
producers and ag leaders on avariety of topics.
We hope you enjoy and learn fromtheir work.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
My name is McKenzie.
I am here with my group members,Martha Kayley, and Matthew.
We are all students atWashington state university.
And today we're gonna be talkingabout no-till production
practices.
Speaker 3 (00:59):
Tilling the soil has been a prominent practice in
farming for many years.
However, recently it's come toour attention and the attention
of many farmers andagriculturalists that tilling
your soil may be doing more harmthan good.
Today.
We are here with Alan ruffle whocan give us some insight on the
fact of the matter concerning notill farming Alan, on behalf of
(01:19):
our members here, we'd like toextend a warm welcome to you,
and thank you for taking thetime to meet with us.
I'm gonna pass the mic to you,Allen, so you can give us a
brief introduction of yourselfand what you do.
Perfect.
Speaker 4 (01:32):
Well, thank you.
And thank you guys for havingme.
It's, uh, it's always a pleasureto work with, uh, the
universities in our area and,and cuz it's a joint effort to
promote soil health and, andconservation practices.
So I'm a fifth generationfarmer.
Uh, we have the opportunity tolive in the homestead.
(01:54):
We, we homesteaded our farm in1876 and, and I've been on the
same ground ever since our farmhas expanded quite a bit, both,
uh, in acres and geographically,we we're very diverse.
We farm about 50 miles from oneend of the farm to the other,
uh, in, in significantlydifferent rainfall zones.
(02:15):
Uh, dad started with no-till inthe mid 1990s.
And so we've, we've been at itfor about 30 years.
He, at that time, you know, theydidn't really know what they
were doing.
And so it was kind of a guessinggame and uh, they were, they
were leaders in this arena atthat time.
(02:35):
And so they, they got togetherwith a group of farmers and
started buying equipment andtrying different things.
And then in the early twothousands, about 2002, 2003, uh,
we bought our own equipment itand converted our farm to a
hundred percent no-till uh, andbeen doing it since, uh, we
thought really thought nearearly stages no-till was the
(02:57):
silver bullet.
That was what was going tochange our farm.
And as we got farther intono-till, there were challenges,
uh, and there, there were brightspots, but what we realized that
it's only a piece of the puzzleand, and with no-till now we
started working on much morediverse crop rotations and per
(03:19):
crops and changing our fertilitypractices and, and looking at
the soil biology, not just thesoil chemistry and, and as we
have kind of progressed, we're,we're starting to get dialed
into what is improving our soiland we're starting to see our
organic matters rise and be ableto reduce our synthetic, uh,
(03:43):
fertilizer inputs.
And so, you know, this day, itwe're pretty proud of where we
are, but there is a very longways to go on our farm.
Speaker 3 (03:51):
Perfect.
Thank you so much, Alan.
That's awesome.
30 years of farming, man.
I can't imagine that.
That's awesome.
Speaker 4 (04:00):
Well, that's 30 years in.
No, till, you know, we've beendoing 30
Speaker 3 (04:03):
Years in.
No till
Speaker 4 (04:04):
Thank you.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
We've been farming on the sameproperty.
Uh, 20, 26 will be 150 years.
Speaker 3 (04:12):
Oh wow.
That's awesome.
All right.
Well, I'd like to start gettinginto some of our questions that
we've got for you today.
Our first question for is howdoes no-till compare to
conventional farming practicesand what effect does it have on
your production outcome?
Speaker 4 (04:29):
You know, there there's some similarities
between conventional farmingpractices and no-till farming
practices.
I don't really like the wordconventional farming practice.
It's only conventionally farmedfor about 150 years.
If you look at modern Americanagriculture, you know, since
(04:49):
the, the era of the plow, we'vereally only been at this for
about 150 years, which in it's,it's a blink of an eye in, in
this scheme of things.
And so to call what we're doingor what my dad did at the
beginning of his career,conventional, that's a really
hard, hard term for me toaccept.
(05:10):
Uh, and, and, and I'm not sureno-till is the exact answer that
we're looking for.
You know, we use some of thesame equipment, the same big
tractors, and, and we're usingthe, some of the same synthetic
inputs, but as far as what we'redoing with soil, it's completely
different.
We, we're not opening that soilup every year.
(05:31):
We leave the previous residue onthe soil, the armor and, and put
the seed into the ground with asminimal disturbance as we can.
And, and so we feel that we are,and we don't feel, we know that
we're rebuilding our soil and,and introducing biological
activity in some organic matterinto it.
A as far as production results,it's been varied.
(05:54):
Um, in the beginning when wewere learning, essentially just,
you know, how to use theequipment there, there were some
struggles and, and we saw a dipin our production, but we're
back, uh, producing as much ormore than a, a conventional
farming system where we alsohave to look at as more than
just a, uh, a gross production.
(06:17):
We, we really look at a net, youknow, maybe there's some times
that we don't produce quite asmuch as that overall yield as,
as a, a super high inputsynthetic input neighbor, but
our return is better monetarilybecause our, our decrease in
inputs and as well as, uh, ourincrease in, in soil health,
(06:40):
that value is really hard toquantify, but it's there and
it's important.
And, and as we move forward,looking at that value as long
as, as well as sequesteringcarbon, those two values are
gonna have to be really lookedat as part of the, the no till
sustainable production model.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
Thank you.
Um, and I think that that was aperfect segue into our next
question.
When you say that you leave soilresidues and, uh, you're
reintroducing organic matterinto your soil, does that ever
cause, um, in your experience,uh, challenges in no-till
farming?
Speaker 4 (07:18):
Yeah, that's a, that's a good question.
And, and absolutely it doesevery, you know, benefit from
the residue comes with a, achallenge we've ran into, you
know, challenges, as simple asthe seed has a hard time growing
through the residue that therejust gets to be so much of it,
(07:38):
uh, to, to more complexchallenges where there's, uh,
chemical holdovers tied up inthat residue that don't break
down the same way as if theywere buried with a conventional
tillage system.
Uh, and so it's, it's been alearning curve and, and we, we
have seen it, but the, thebenefits long term far outweigh
(07:59):
the short term challenges.
And, and we're willing to workthrough a lot of these issues to
get where we want to be, whichis return into soil to what it,
what it once was.
Uh, and I'm not sure I'll getthere in my lifetime, but I, I
(08:20):
sure hope that I have a goodstart.
That
Speaker 3 (08:23):
Is a really good piece of information for, um,
people who may listen to this,because it gives them a little
bit more of an insight on, um,how even the better alternatives
to farming practices can stillcause challenges in your
production.
Would you, would you agree withthat statement?
Speaker 4 (08:42):
Absolutely.
You know, there's always gonnabe challenges with any
production system and, uh,there's gonna be highs and lows
in each one.
So, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (08:53):
All right.
And our last question that wehad here since we're getting a
little bit closer to our time iscan no-till farming be applied
on a smaller scale and say ahome garden for those who aren't
involved in bigger productions?
And if so, how, how can smallhomesteaders incorporate that
into their individual practices?
Speaker 4 (09:13):
Yeah.
You know, obvious say I we're,I'm pretty focused on large
scale, uh, agriculture, but I, Idon't see any reason why it
couldn't carry over into smallscale.
What, to me, the exciting partabout small scale is the ability
to amend the soil in a way toreally accelerate the benefit
(09:35):
it's of, of a zero tillageenvironment.
For those plants.
We, we work with really tightmargins on really, really big
acres.
And so when we change somethingand, and have to spend 10,$20 an
acre, that's a lot of money forus.
Uh, but on a small scale, ifyou, you spend, you know, 50 an
(09:56):
acre, which, uh, most smallscales, not even gonna be an
acre on, on the home garden,it's gonna be, you know, an
eighth of an acre and you canamend it with things like the,
you know, WSU has a wonderfulorganic compost that, that we've
even put in our fields.
Uh, but again, it, it priced usout, but where you could amend
with that, uh, it would befantastic.
(10:18):
And, and to be able to watch thebiology come to life in that
accelerated manner and, and, andstart producing healthier crops,
and it would be so exciting.
And then you're gonna see thosebenefits more directly in your
food, because typically you'regonna be growing fresh
vegetables and things that areeaten directly at, outta your
garden.
We're going into some marketsthat, that aren't direct to
(10:42):
consumer, but they are field toconsumer.
So we'll go into a mill with ourgrain or, uh, into a processing
plant with our pulse crops and,and have hummus and flour and
things like that.
But in that home garden whereyou can, uh, grow your soil and,
and have this absolutely healthymicrobiology and, and micro
(11:04):
sphere under the soil to growthose healthy crops and then put
'em on your plate at night, thatwould be the ultimate reward.
And no till will absolutelywork.
Uh, you just, you know, they'll,they'll be a little tillage to
get your, your seed in theground, poke a little hole seed
in, but I, I don't see anyreason why that wouldn't work.
Speaker 3 (11:21):
I think that that's really important for people to
know, too, that even on thesmaller scale at home, you can,
you can still reach the benefitsthat bigger productions use or
maintain with their moresustainable approaches to their
production.
And I think that people can hearthis and really be inspired to
(11:43):
take action on their own land,so that across many geographical
areas, more people are reachingthose same results and overall
achieving those goals of asustainable production in their
home gardens.
Speaker 4 (11:55):
Absolutely.
You know, it doesn't take oneperson to change the world.
It takes us all doing a littlebit and, and the home gardens
are gonna be an amazing startfor that.
Uh, and, and as us, as, as largescale producers, we need to rise
to the challenge and lead thatmovement change is gonna take
everybody.
And it's important for me on myfarm to, to help drive that
Speaker 3 (12:21):
I'd like to extend the thank you again for meeting
with us today and giving us allof us valuable information about
no till and sustainableapproaches to gardening and
farming.
And I really admire your familyfor how long that they have been
using your guys' land forproduction.
That's really incredible.
And you guys, it sounds like youguys are doing really incredible
things there.
(12:43):
So thank you again, Alan, formeeting with us, and we
appreciate the valuable insight,and we hope that you have a
wonderful rest of your day.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
Thank you for listening to fresh growth.
We hope you enjoyed this episodefor more information on
westerner grounds and ourlearning resources visit
westerner.org.
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