July 24, 2025 • 42 mins
In this conversation, Maud Powell, Wolf Gulch Farm and Oregon State University shares her journey as a farmer and the challenges she faced due to a changing climate and lack of water. She and her husband Tom realized “we can’t really farm here anymore.”
The leaving of one piece of land and starting over on another led to her exploration of climate grief. She discusses the agrarian imperative (farmers compelled to continue growing food even amid strong challenges), the emotional toll of farming in a changing climate, and the importance of community support.
At Oregon State University, Maud organizes workshops and trainings that address climate stress and grief, helping producers recognize and cope with their emotions. She highlights the differences between climate grief and other types of grief, and the significance of community rituals in processing loss. The conversation concludes with practical steps for managing climate emotions and fostering resilience among farmers.
Her team interviewed 50 farmers and 100% of them said they are experiencing some level of climate stress and or climate grief. So, they're all experiencing it, but they don't have a name for it. The workshops validate and give people words and names for what they're experiencing.
Find more information and tools on Oregon State University's website.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:08):
Hello and welcome to Season 5 of Fresh Growth, a
podcast by the Western SAREProgram at Sustainable
Agriculture Research andEducation.
I'm your host, Steve Elliott,alongside co-host Stacey Clary.
Thanks for listening for thepast four seasons, and we're
excited to sit down with moreinnovative producers this year.
Just for background, WesternSARE is funded by the U.S.
(00:30):
Department of Agriculture'sNational Institute of Food and
Agriculture.
We promote sustainable farmingand ranching across the American
West through research,education, and communication
efforts like this podcast.
Fresh Growth highlightsproducers and agricultural
professionals from around theWest who are embracing new ways
of farming and ranching.
(00:50):
They'll tell us about theirexperiences adopting more
sustainable practices and thechallenges and benefits they've
seen.
Today's guest is Maude Powell,who, with her husband Tom, owns
Wolf Gulch Farm in Oregon.
Maude is also an associateprofessor and small farm advisor
at Oregon State University.
Maude, welcome, and thanks forsitting down with us.
SPEAKER_00 (01:10):
Thank you so
SPEAKER_03 (01:11):
much for having me.
Hi, Maude.
It's great to talk with you.
I've certainly heard about yourfarm, but if you can let us know
a little bit more about WolfGulch Farm, you know, the
location, the climate, and whendid you and Tom get started?
SPEAKER_00 (01:26):
Yeah, so Tom and I spent the summers of 1996 and
1997 working on other people'sfarms, first in India, where we
learned to farm in Ladakh on theTibetan Plateau and really
caught the farming bug, justloved the lifestyle, loved the
philosophy, loved being able tofeed the community, and came
(01:49):
home and interned on a couple offarms in Southern Oregon where I
had family.
And then we bought Wolf Gulch inthe summer of 1998 with my
sister.
My mom helped us.
It was kind of an extendedfamily affair.
And we started growing inearnest in 1999.
The farm is in the LittleApplegate Valley, which is in
(02:14):
the southwest corner of Oregon.
And we...
We started just growing produce,kind of just trying to grow
everything and going to growersmarkets.
And then really liked the ideaof the CSA, the community
supported agriculture model,where we weren't standing at
farmer's markets as much sellingproduce, but actually doing the
(02:38):
subscription model.
So we did that for about 18years.
We ended up being the...
the organizers for the SiskiyouSustainable Cooperative, which
was a marketing cooperative ofeight certified organic farms in
Southern Oregon.
So we had a CSA that got up toabout 300 members, and then
(03:00):
we're also selling some to thelocal schools and other
institutions.
But gradually over the years,the property, we realized just
when we first bought it in 1998,There had been a really wet
period here.
There was a huge flood inSouthern Oregon in 1997.
(03:21):
So there was a lot of water onthe landscape.
And then within a few years, wegot into a drought cycle and
realized there really wasn't asmuch water in Wolf Gulch as we
had expected.
So we started to switch over alittle bit toward growing seeds.
Southern Oregon is a greatregion for growing seeds.
(03:45):
for growing seed crops,vegetable and flower seeds in
particular, because we have thisvery dry climate.
And so we have, there's not alot of ambient moisture in the
fall and the late summer.
So the seeds really have anopportunity to dry down and we
tend to have really goodgermination rates and really
(04:08):
good yields.
So we had a couple of otherfarmer friends that were growing
seeds.
So we started growing seed cropsAnd then as our landscape became
drier, we gradually moved moreand more into seeds.
So by 2018, we were growingexclusively seed crops.
We'd stopped doing CSAsaltogether.
(04:30):
Yeah, and just a note about ourfarm.
We had designed it usingpermaculture practices.
And then as the climate becamedroughtier, We employed all
kinds of different strategiesfor keeping as much water on the
land as possible.
So using the key line plowsystem, if people are familiar
(04:53):
with the key line system out ofAustralia and the permaculture
movement, we converted all ofour irrigation to drip tape.
It was all gravity fed.
So we had about three to fouracres of annuals and perennials
just exclusively on drip tape.
And then we were conserving allof the winter rainwater,
collecting it from our roofsinto tanks.
(05:17):
And then we had three ponds.
You'll notice I'm starting touse past tense a little bit
because we actually did end upmoving a year ago because the
creek completely dried up in2017.
And then in 2021...
we had this heat dome in theNorthwest that many people
(05:40):
remember.
And for us on our property andin Southern Oregon, I believe we
had 17 days where the hightemperature never got below one
Oh, uh, was it one 10, I think.
Um, and that was reallyunseasonable for us.
I mean, people experienced itall over, but at that point, you
(06:02):
know, we were trying to justtriage and keep, the crops
alive.
It was late June, and we kind ofturned to each other and
realized, like, we can't reallyfarm here anymore, which is what
kind of brought me into all thiswork around climate stress and
grief.
SPEAKER_01 (06:22):
Yeah.
I mean, that's a 20-yearmicrocosm of what's happening,
if you bought it in 98 and sortof, well, 30 years, I guess.
I can't do math.
SPEAKER_00 (06:36):
I usually say 20.
We were there for 25, so yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (06:42):
I mean, going back to even the decision to switch
over to seed crops, had youexhausted, I mean, in your minds
at least, all the practical waysto keep growing fresh market
crops?
SPEAKER_00 (06:57):
There were a number of factors that went into us
transitioning more to seedcrops, particularly We really
enjoy the process of looking atgenetics and working with the
seed companies and restoringvarieties, maintaining
varieties.
It also meant that we didn'thave to do as much marketing
(07:17):
throughout the season, so wereally liked that part of it.
But in the end, it really didcome down to the fact that with
seed crops, you don't have toirrigate after, depending on the
crop, sometime in August orearly September.
SPEAKER_02 (07:32):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00 (07:32):
when we were running out of water.
So that irrigation was a bigpart of it.
We had some really stressfulyears where we got into
September and October and we'rehaving really hot days and
keeping the fresh market producealive was very difficult.
So it was kind of balancing anumber of factors, but in the
(07:53):
end it was way less stressful togrow the seed crops because of
their irrigation needs.
UNKNOWN (08:01):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (08:03):
It sounds to me that every year you were facing
drought, a changing climate, youadapted.
And then that final year withthat heat dump, you said you
turned to each other and said,this isn't working.
Does it feel like it was agradual decision or just finally
at that very end, we cannot dothis anymore?
(08:28):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (08:29):
Yeah, I think, like you said, we continue to adapt.
I work at OSU Extension.
So I was actually working on adrought module.
So I was working on how toeducate farmers to make their
farms more drought resilient.
And so we kind of had all thelatest information.
(08:51):
We were attending conferences.
We were doing our due diligencein terms of professional
development as farmers.
And, and, you know, I think oncethe creek dried up, that was
certainly a significant momentfor us.
But I think we just believed wecould, if we kept doing the
right thing, we could stay.
(09:12):
And yeah, the, the heat dome.
was such a gut punch.
And I think because of when itfell, which was late June, early
July, it was kind of like, well,this is June and July.
What is August going to looklike in terms of heat?
And it just became toostressful.
(09:34):
We were pumping water out of ourlower pond up to our upper pond.
At one point, we actually had tostart just buying truckloads of
water from town I rememberhearing the sound of the trucks
rumbling up our driveway andjust thinking, I cannot believe
we have to do this.
(09:57):
It was really devastating.
It still makes me cry when Italk about it because we had
done so much to stay and we wereso committed to that property.
We'd raised our kids there.
Our whole lives were basedaround...
that place.
And we really felt, you know, asyoung idealists wanting to farm
(10:22):
and feed our community and takecare of land, we felt like it
was so important to commit to apiece of land and stay there.
So it was, yeah, it was verypainful, very painful decision.
SPEAKER_03 (10:38):
Yeah.
I can, I can only imagine.
Yeah.
When you were going through allthis and having all those really
intense feelings, had you heardthe term climate grief before?
Or is that something that youcame to as you were processing
everything that you were goingthrough?
SPEAKER_00 (10:57):
You know, I had heard the term.
I was familiar with JoannaMacy's work.
So I was familiar with the termecological distress, which is
just kind of another name forclimate grief.
Yeah.
there's lots of terms out thereand people prefer some over
(11:18):
others.
And we've actually done somework with farmers to figure out
which terms are kind of the mostaccessible for them as we do
this work.
So I was vaguely familiar withthem, but then to experience it
ourselves and kind of see Inmyself, I noticed that I wasn't
(11:38):
reaching out to friends as much.
I was isolating.
It was hard to sleep.
It was hard to eat.
I was distracted.
Tom and I were fighting, whichisn't really typical in our
relationship.
He was drinking more.
I started to see like, oh,there's all these behaviors and
(12:01):
kind of emotional...
implications of this happening.
I really wanted to get help.
I wanted to figure out how tomanage this.
I'm the type of person that'sproactive.
I go out and try to figure outhow to address issues as they
come up.
I did some internet research andfound Joanna Macy's work, The
(12:23):
Work That Reconnects, which, asI mentioned, addresses
ecological distress.
I signed up for a I think aneight week online program that
fall and just found the work tobe incredibly powerful.
I think, you know, part of it isthat in this day and age
(12:44):
there's, there is so muchisolation and these feelings are
really intense.
I mean, we're all either in LAor we're watching images of LA
right now and it's terrifying.
It's our worst nightmare.
Yeah.
And this is happening regularly.
You know, just a few months ago,we were watching North Carolina
(13:06):
and the Southeast.
And there's a million examples.
Those are two very dramatic onesjust in our very recent memory.
But these feelings are, they'reso large in a lot of cases that
we tend to want to numb out ordistract ourselves or else we
(13:27):
kind of just watch in horror.
actually having a venue to talkabout some of the feelings to
feel normalized was incrediblyhelpful.
And just the amount of empathyand compassion people had for
this kind of agonizing decisionthat we had ahead of us.
(13:50):
Not only were we leaving thisproperty, but we were having to
make a decision about whether ornot to leave Southern Oregon,
where I've had a almost 20-yearcareer at Extension.
We have all of our closestfriends, deep roots in the
community.
And so we actually spent about ayear considering moving to other
(14:16):
areas.
We ended up deciding to staybecause the connections that we
have were so strong here.
But there was that sort ofagonizing process of figuring
out what our next step was.
SPEAKER_01 (14:30):
Yeah.
And you say it's isolating.
I mean, the anxiety itself ofwhat's happening here and what
can we do about it.
And then the idea of you have toleave and then everybody's
leaving because your neighborscan't part either.
I mean, so the isolation getsworse.
(14:55):
Yeah.
In the course you took, weremost of the other students, were
there other students, and werethey also sort of in the same,
going through the sameexperience you were?
I
SPEAKER_00 (15:07):
think I was the only farmer in the group that was
dealing kind of so directly withclimate change impacting the
course of my life, where Ilived, you know, my work, my
family, all these things.
So, you know, a lot of peoplewere working directly either had
a strong connection with theland or their work related to
(15:31):
it.
So they were working in theenvironmental field in some
capacity or other.
Or a lot of people, I remember,were working with kids.
And all the research that'scoming out is just showing the
amount of anxiety and anxietygrief among children around the
climate is so high.
(15:53):
So a lot of them were educatorswho were trying to figure out
how to deal with their own griefso they could really support
these children that they workwith every day.
SPEAKER_03 (16:01):
You had to make the really hard decision to leave,
but you didn't leave farming.
And how is continuing to farm,how does that feel now for you?
SPEAKER_00 (16:19):
It's wonderful.
Tom does most of the farming,and he just loves to farm.
One of the pieces that I talkabout a lot in the workshops I
lead now on climate stress andgrief is this concept of the
agrarian imperative, which manypeople don't know about.
(16:41):
It was a term coined by MichaelRossman, I believe, in 2010.
He's a agricultural psychologistin the Midwest.
And he came up with this theorythat people who farm have this
imperative, this drive tosteward land and to grow food
(17:06):
and fiber.
And he actually posited thatthere was like a genetic
component that this was a traitthat had been passed down But so
what the theory says is thatpeople will actually overcome
(17:26):
incredible amounts of stress.
They'll take sort of inordinaterisks in order to keep growing
food.
And, you know, it's just sointeresting because I, you know,
I learned about it and I talkedto Tom about it and he said, oh,
yeah, I absolutely feel thatway.
I will grow food.
(17:47):
food until the day I die, nomatter what.
And as I talk to farmers inthese classes, you know, I'll
describe the agrarian imperativeand I start to see heads nod and
people saying, yes, that's how Ifeel.
I feel compelled to grow food orfiber beyond what really seems
(18:11):
reasonable.
So in any other vocation, ifthey were dealing with these
types of obstacles and stresses,they would decide, you know, I'm
going to cut my losses andswitch careers.
But with farming, and you hearabout it in other land-based
activities, I've heard it withloggers, with foresters, with
fisher people, that thatconnection is so strong and it's
(18:36):
really compelling for people.
So I like to talk about itbecause I do feel like it's
important for people to feelaffirmed in that.
Like, yeah, to outsiders whodon't understand agriculture, it
might seem crazy to want to keepfarming given the type of stress
(18:56):
that we're under, especiallywith the climate change.
But this is real, or thisagrarian imperative is
documented.
And thank goodness, right?
Thank goodness that people wantto keep farming despite how
challenging it is.
And it kind of gives us all themore reason to be supporting
(19:20):
farmers as much as we can.
So
SPEAKER_01 (19:23):
tell me, talk a little bit about sort of how
you've been sharing support andhelping others face this reality
of a changing climate and tryingto keep farming and the stress
that those things bring.
SPEAKER_00 (19:41):
Right.
I mean, I think when I startedthinking about how to talk to
farmers about this, how to leadworkshops or classes, you know,
farmers are so practical andthat's what we love about them
is like they want.
So they're solution oriented.
You know, I've got an issue withmy soil.
I want to figure out whatamendment I need.
(20:04):
I want the latest technology onirrigation to conserve water.
You know, there's very much aproblem solving, pull yourself
up by your bootstrap mentalitythat I love about the farmers I
work with.
But this is a little bitdifferent.
And so it was challenging for meto think about how there's no
(20:24):
silver bullet to the emotionalfeeling, the emotions that we're
having around climate grief.
So what actually is supportive?
And so early in my work, Ibrought in a clinical
psychologist to help me.
And she really talked about theimportance of naming
experiences.
(20:45):
So that there's something calledlike a psycho education, which
is just the idea that actuallyknowing that this phenomenon
that you're experiencing isnormal.
So validating that.
and giving people words andnames for what they're
(21:05):
experiencing.
So just so many people, we'vesurveyed farmers who've attended
our workshops, and up to 50%have never heard of these terms,
climate stress and grief.
And so suddenly they have a namefor what they're experiencing.
And just to say, you know, 100%,of the farmers that we
(21:28):
interviewed this summer, weinterviewed 50 farmers, and 100%
of them said they areexperiencing some level of
climate stress and or climategrief.
So they're all experiencing it,but they don't have a name for
it.
So just literally being able toname what you're experiencing is
(21:48):
hugely helpful to understand howclimate stress and climate grief
differs from other types ofstress and grief.
So there are unique ways thatthey differ from those griefs
and stresses that we talk aboutmore commonly in our lives to
understand how they would impactfarmers more than other folks.
(22:10):
And then to start to, then we gointo some experiential parts of
climate stress and grief.
We also talk about differenttypes of behaviors you might
notice because often peoplewon't even be aware that they're
experiencing emotions but theymight notice that you know
(22:34):
they're kind of cutting cornersin their farm operation or they
like I said with myself likethey're isolating from friends
they're not they quit the clubthat they used to be a part of
so Getting people to see like,oh, you know, some of these
behaviors are, yeah, they'redrinking more.
(22:55):
Some of those behaviors mayactually be a sign that there's
underlying stress or griefpresent that actually needs to
be kind of brought up andaddressed.
SPEAKER_03 (23:09):
You said earlier that climate stress, climate
grief is different than othertypes of grief.
Can you explain a little bitmore the difference?
SPEAKER_00 (23:19):
Sure, yeah.
So typically, when we think ofgrief, you know, we think of
often someone dying, a pet or aloved one.
And those griefs are, you know,they can be terrible.
They can be devastating, take along time to heal from.
But they are discreet, right?
(23:41):
So typically, it's like yourgrandfather dies or your dog
dies.
Climate grief is...
ongoing and it's overwhelming.
So we've already lost so much.
We continue to lose more.
We know that there's more tolose in the future.
So it's this sort of unendinggrief without resolution.
(24:01):
Many griefs for people, and notin all cases, certainly they're
complicated deaths like withsuicide or murder or even an
accident, where the feelings canbe really complicated, but it
tends to be a lot of sadness andloss.
(24:22):
Whereas climate grief is reallycomplicated and they're
terrified for the future.
Like, will I even be able tobreathe in so many years?
What about my kids andgrandkids?
So there's a ton of fear.
There's also guilt.
You know, people are like, oh, Iwant to fly across the country
(24:42):
and see my cousin, but my carbonfootprint?
Or am I doing enough?
Should I quit my job and justspend my whole life being an
activist for climate?
So we're constantly, the societywe live in, we're constantly
forced to make all thesecompromises and decisions that
(25:03):
we've been told that are goingto impact the climate.
And then, of course, there'sintense sadness.
So we hear about the loss of allthese species.
We see these homes being burned.
We see animals suffering throughdrought and wildfire and floods.
So there's just like intenseamounts of sadness.
(25:26):
So it's a really complicated setof feelings.
And that, like I said, in somecases, you can have that kind of
suite of emotions with certaintypes of death.
But typically, you know, itwould be more of that kind of
sadness loss quadrant.
Oh, and then the last thing Iwant to say in terms of how
(25:50):
climate grief is different thanother grief is that it's
considered a disenfranchisedgrief.
So, you know, when we lose aperson, there's all kinds of
cultural ways, the rituals, youknow, we have a memorial or a
funeral.
People might bring you meals.
(26:11):
If you're lucky, you'll havesome bereavement leave from your
job.
So there's lots of ways that weknow to practice experiencing
that loss that's culturallyvalidated.
And then disenfranchised griefs,this could be a miscarriage or a
(26:37):
divorce or you move away.
And no one really thinks like,oh, there's all these ways to
sort of acknowledge that lossof, you know, you're moving away
from all your friends.
So climate grief is similarly,it's a disenfranchised grief
because we don't currently havedifferent ways as a community to
(26:59):
validate that experience.
So people are tending to grievealone in isolation rather than,
you know, out in the communitywhere they can be supported.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (27:11):
Are there lessons from that that you bring into
your workshops?
Is there sort of a way to makethis more culturally accepted or
practiced?
SPEAKER_00 (27:26):
Yeah, I mean, some of the work that we do in our
longer workshops, we sometimeswill have everybody in the room
share one thing that they'velost to climate change.
or something that they'venoticed change in the landscape
that's affected them personally.
And we do that as kind of agroup process of sharing.
(27:49):
And it's really powerful becausepeople will share deeply
personal losses.
And I think it is another,Stacey, to go back to your
question about how it differs,climate grief can be so
overwhelming.
And we tend to focus on thingsthat like the loss of polar
(28:10):
bears or the Great Barrier Reefdying, or even things like
looking at LA burn.
But we tend to distanceourselves from the really
personal losses that we'reexperiencing ourselves because
they're so painful.
So we actually get people toname those things.
(28:31):
And it is a type of ritual.
And so people are sharing thesewith each other And it's really
profound.
You know, people will cry,people will express anger.
But just for example, you know,we've had farmers talk about the
fact that, you know, they nolonger see the same number of
(28:54):
pollinators on their crops.
So they no longer see bumblebeesin their fields.
Someone talked about the factthat their community used to
have a Fish Friday.
So they'd go fishing at a locallake and then they would all,
you know, they cook up the fishand it was this big community
(29:14):
event.
Well, now the temperature in thelake is too high to sustain
life.
So there are no longer any fishin that lake.
So not only are those fish gone,but that community ritual of
getting together and fishing andcooking up the fish together is
also gone.
That's considered like asecondary or tertiary loss where
(29:34):
the fish is the primary loss.
So people are talking aboutthese deeply personal losses.
And, you know, just that sharingand witnessing process is really
profound.
And Steve, to answer yourquestion, too, I did want to add
that when we moved away fromWolf Gulch, I did hold a ritual,
(29:57):
a circle ritual.
Tom did not participate just tonote so that was not his way of
saying goodbye to the land butwe've had so many people that
have a relationship with WolfGulch that you know friends that
have just come over the yearsand have lots of memories and so
(30:18):
it was a little bit of like amemorial you know and obviously
the land goes on and the landcontinues but it was an
opportunity for us to gettogether and talk about what we
loved about the propertymemories, what we would miss.
And that was really beautiful.
And that, that helped me a lotto have that kind of community
support and validation for whatI was losing by moving.
SPEAKER_03 (30:45):
The ritual you went through was very powerful for
you.
And it sounds with everybodysharing in the workshops, it's
powerful for, for them.
I'm curious, how do you feellike they're getting drawn?
So when you're trying to bringpeople to your workshops, how do
they recognize that this is aworkshop for them?
(31:07):
Like what language are youusing?
And then what are they leavingwith?
SPEAKER_00 (31:12):
Yeah, great question, Stacey.
Yeah.
To answer your first question,you know, I know farmers, I've
worked with them for 20 years.
they're not going to show up toa three-hour workshop on climate
emotions.
There's no way.
And so when I initially had thisconcept, the idea was to create
(31:34):
a 30-minute module that could beembedded in other programming.
And so often as an agriculturaleducator, I'll be putting on or
I'll be collaborating on aday-long day long or half day
program.
And there's, you know, a halfhour here or there that we we
need some programming.
(31:54):
So the idea was to have this besort of a teaser to give people
a name for what they'reexperiencing.
But, you know, not to try todraw people to a workshop
specifically on this.
And that worked really well.
And we did survey everybody.
And I think it was 91% of thefarmers that attended that
(32:17):
little half-hour workshop wantedmore.
But like you said, they didn'teven know they were experiencing
climate grief until that30-minute workshop.
So they sort of needed thatintroduction to the concept
before they would want to attenda longer workshop.
So we are still, we're only ayear and a half into this
(32:39):
project.
So we're still trying to figureout the best ways to reach
farmers.
We found that conferences wherewe can host an hour and a half
long session are really popular.
And I think, again, that'sbecause people are signed up for
an entire conference and thenthey're going to this one
(33:00):
offering.
But I think it is hard toattract people to a longer
session.
So that was to answer thatquestion.
The other question is a greatone in terms of what people
leave with.
So we will do that practice ofnaming what people have lost.
And the room tends to feel veryheavy and somber at that point.
(33:23):
And then we switch to talk aboutresilience strategies.
And we really use astrengths-based approach.
I tell the farmers like, You'reobviously resilient.
You obviously are coping becauseyou're here.
You're at this conference.
You're at this workshop.
You're still farming.
You got up out of bed today.
(33:44):
And so let's do a skill share.
Tell everybody else in the room,what are the practices that you
do that help you handle theseemotions that are healthy?
And it's really beautiful whatpeople share at that point.
We frame it as a skill share toencourage people to talk.
(34:05):
You can help the other people inthis room.
But more and more, what I'vebeen reading about is that there
is no silver bullet to climateemotions and climate stress.
But all of the research showsthere are better outcomes when
people talk about thesefeelings.
(34:26):
They are more resilient.
They are more connected to theircommunity.
And interestingly, they're morelikely to take action.
So they're actually more likelyto have agency around making
positive changes, whether it'son their farms or in their
lives, getting involved ratherthan doing this kind of numbing
(34:48):
out distraction and tuning outto what's happening.
So We do that resilience processand it's really wonderful
because by the time we leave,people are feeling energized,
excited, they're feelingconnected to one another.
And so, yeah, we try to leave onthat positive note.
(35:10):
But it's really, I've beennoting, I've been making sure
that I document all of theresilience strategies that come
out of all these workshops.
And so I've noticed some trendsand they fall roughly into
different buckets of resiliencestrategies.
Some are like self-care, likepeople will meditate or they
(35:34):
will make sure they get enoughsleep or whatever it is that's
kind of around self-care.
Some of it is around connecting,so making sure that they're
nurturing those relationships,they're having family dinners at
least a couple times a week withtheir kids.
(35:54):
Some of it's connecting withnature and animals.
Lots of people talk about howgoing and sitting by a river for
a few hours, or not a few hours,not hours, even just sitting by
the river for 20 minutes canmake them feel kind of restored
and connected.
We had one farmer who talkedabout how he makes sure he's got
(36:17):
three cats, three barn cats.
He pets each of those cats everyday for a little while.
And that gives him that sense ofkind of connection and joy that
helps him keep going in therougher moments.
And then you have people talkabout taking action.
So going to testify or writeletters, signing up to be part
(36:38):
of an organization that'sworking on climate change.
And then people talk aboutlimiting technology, so making
sure they're not inundatingthemselves with all this
terrible news that just makesthem feel despairing but isn't
actually encouraging them totake any action.
So it ends up making them feelmore paralyzed than inspired or
(37:01):
activated.
So we end with that and thenencourage people to continue
talking about these issues withtheir neighbors and making sure
that they're engaging in theseresilience practices.
So as I've been reading more andmore about climate grief, what I
(37:22):
hear is that we have thesestates of distress.
So when we're watching the newsabout LA or we're seeing our
landscape change or whatever itis, we feel these difficult
emotions.
And so In order to manage that,we actually have to be also
seeking out these states ofresilience, which I think of as
(37:47):
joy, connection, and agency.
And so, you know, figuring outfor yourself, what are the
activities that bring thatsense?
Because we're going to need thatmore and more so that we can
toggle back and forth betweenthe states of distress and the
states of resilience.
So
SPEAKER_01 (38:06):
just, I mean, That was going to be my last question
was like, what can people do?
And I love that you went throughall those different buckets of
resilient kind of behaviors.
If somebody is listening to thisand have come across this for
the first time and hasrecognized, oh my gosh, that's
what I'm feeling.
(38:30):
What's one thing they can do andone place they can go to help
start to understand it and startto feel better or connect.
SPEAKER_00 (38:44):
Yeah, I mean, there's lots of great
organizations and they arelisted on our website.
So rather than try to name themhere, you could go to our
website and look underresources.
You know, some people aren'tgroup people.
Like I said, Tom doesn't want totalk to anybody about his
feelings except maybe me.
So But the research, again, doesshow that actually talking about
(39:08):
these emotions in groups is evenmore beneficial than one-on-one
therapy.
So there is something about thegroup model that I think can be
really useful to a lot ofpeople.
And more and more, there arethese groups.
They're called climate cafes.
You can find them on Zoom or inyour community.
But having a chance to just bein a space where you can feel
(39:31):
like it's important to talkabout these issues time and
again I hear people say I don'tI have all these feelings but I
don't want to talk to my friendsI don't want to talk at a party
or a potluck about thesefeelings because no one wants to
hear it it's too depressing andso finding a space or maybe it's
(39:52):
you know a friend or a group offriends that you feel safe
talking about with this withthat aren't going to shut you
down or get really you knowemotionally triggered So you can
talk about your feelings.
So it's first reallyacknowledging the feelings,
getting to know them better.
We have this great resourcecalled the Climate Wheel, a
(40:14):
climate emotions wheel, which isalso on our website.
And it's interesting.
We have people look.
There's four quadrants.
There's fear, sadness, anger,and hope, actually, a positive
one.
But you can start to like, see,where do you fall on this
climate emotions wheel?
Do you tend to feel more fear?
(40:34):
Do you tend to feel more anger?
So getting to be familiar withsome of your emotions is
actually helpful.
Just being able to name thefeelings.
And then so there's like reallygiving yourself some space to
feel these feelings, validatingthe feelings.
Of course, you feel grief.
Of course, you feel anger.
(40:55):
Like, That's an appropriateresponse to what's happening.
There is nothing pathologicalabout experiencing climate
stress and grief.
We are living in a reallydifficult time where we're
facing major losses that reallydidn't need to happen.
So these emotions are completelyvalid.
(41:16):
So giving yourself space to feelthem and then, yeah, identifying
like, you know, what are theactivities that that make me
feel joy, that make me feelconnected, that make me feel
like I'm ready to do somethingand then seeking those out and
cultivating those in your life.
So in broad strokes, those arekind of the two steps I would
(41:37):
say that people, you know,experiencing this and wanting to
address it in their lives shouldtake or could take.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Thanks.
SPEAKER_03 (41:47):
Thank you, Mon.
Yeah.
You referenced your website acouple of times.
We'll definitely put it in thenotes and all the social media
promo and stuff, but do you wantto say what your website is?
SPEAKER_00 (41:58):
It's an ugly website name, but perhaps easier for
listeners is if you just GoogleOregon State University climate
grief, it comes right up.
SPEAKER_02 (42:11):
Perfect.
SPEAKER_00 (42:12):
That's great.
SPEAKER_03 (42:15):
Well, thank you, Maude.
This was...
Yeah, this is an intense one.
It's great work, but you alsohave a lot of really good tips
for people, ideas for people onhow to work with this, how to
identify it and work with this.
So thank you.
Thank
SPEAKER_00 (42:31):
you so much for having me.
Appreciate
SPEAKER_02 (42:35):
it.
UNKNOWN (42:36):
Thanks.
SPEAKER_03 (42:43):
Thank you for listening to Fresh Growth.
We hope you enjoyed thisepisode.
For more information on WesternSARE Grounds and our learning
resources, visitwesternsare.org.
Hello and welcome to Season 5 of Fresh Growth, a
podcast by the Western SAREProgram at Sustainable
Agriculture Research andEducation.
I'm your host, Steve Elliott,alongside co-host Stacey Clary.
Thanks for listening for thepast four seasons, and we're
excited to sit down with moreinnovative producers this year.
Just for background, WesternSARE is funded by the U.S.
(00:30):
Department of Agriculture'sNational Institute of Food and
Agriculture.
We promote sustainable farmingand ranching across the American
West through research,education, and communication
efforts like this podcast.
Fresh Growth highlightsproducers and agricultural
professionals from around theWest who are embracing new ways
of farming and ranching.
(00:50):
They'll tell us about theirexperiences adopting more
sustainable practices and thechallenges and benefits they've
seen.
Today's guest is Maude Powell,who, with her husband Tom, owns
Wolf Gulch Farm in Oregon.
Maude is also an associateprofessor and small farm advisor
at Oregon State University.
Maude, welcome, and thanks forsitting down with us.
SPEAKER_00 (01:10):
Thank you so
SPEAKER_03 (01:11):
much for having me.
Hi, Maude.
It's great to talk with you.
I've certainly heard about yourfarm, but if you can let us know
a little bit more about WolfGulch Farm, you know, the
location, the climate, and whendid you and Tom get started?
SPEAKER_00 (01:26):
Yeah, so Tom and I spent the summers of 1996 and
1997 working on other people'sfarms, first in India, where we
learned to farm in Ladakh on theTibetan Plateau and really
caught the farming bug, justloved the lifestyle, loved the
philosophy, loved being able tofeed the community, and came
(01:49):
home and interned on a couple offarms in Southern Oregon where I
had family.
And then we bought Wolf Gulch inthe summer of 1998 with my
sister.
My mom helped us.
It was kind of an extendedfamily affair.
And we started growing inearnest in 1999.
The farm is in the LittleApplegate Valley, which is in
(02:14):
the southwest corner of Oregon.
And we...
We started just growing produce,kind of just trying to grow
everything and going to growersmarkets.
And then really liked the ideaof the CSA, the community
supported agriculture model,where we weren't standing at
farmer's markets as much sellingproduce, but actually doing the
(02:38):
subscription model.
So we did that for about 18years.
We ended up being the...
the organizers for the SiskiyouSustainable Cooperative, which
was a marketing cooperative ofeight certified organic farms in
Southern Oregon.
So we had a CSA that got up toabout 300 members, and then
(03:00):
we're also selling some to thelocal schools and other
institutions.
But gradually over the years,the property, we realized just
when we first bought it in 1998,There had been a really wet
period here.
There was a huge flood inSouthern Oregon in 1997.
(03:21):
So there was a lot of water onthe landscape.
And then within a few years, wegot into a drought cycle and
realized there really wasn't asmuch water in Wolf Gulch as we
had expected.
So we started to switch over alittle bit toward growing seeds.
Southern Oregon is a greatregion for growing seeds.
(03:45):
for growing seed crops,vegetable and flower seeds in
particular, because we have thisvery dry climate.
And so we have, there's not alot of ambient moisture in the
fall and the late summer.
So the seeds really have anopportunity to dry down and we
tend to have really goodgermination rates and really
(04:08):
good yields.
So we had a couple of otherfarmer friends that were growing
seeds.
So we started growing seed cropsAnd then as our landscape became
drier, we gradually moved moreand more into seeds.
So by 2018, we were growingexclusively seed crops.
We'd stopped doing CSAsaltogether.
(04:30):
Yeah, and just a note about ourfarm.
We had designed it usingpermaculture practices.
And then as the climate becamedroughtier, We employed all
kinds of different strategiesfor keeping as much water on the
land as possible.
So using the key line plowsystem, if people are familiar
(04:53):
with the key line system out ofAustralia and the permaculture
movement, we converted all ofour irrigation to drip tape.
It was all gravity fed.
So we had about three to fouracres of annuals and perennials
just exclusively on drip tape.
And then we were conserving allof the winter rainwater,
collecting it from our roofsinto tanks.
(05:17):
And then we had three ponds.
You'll notice I'm starting touse past tense a little bit
because we actually did end upmoving a year ago because the
creek completely dried up in2017.
And then in 2021...
we had this heat dome in theNorthwest that many people
(05:40):
remember.
And for us on our property andin Southern Oregon, I believe we
had 17 days where the hightemperature never got below one
Oh, uh, was it one 10, I think.
Um, and that was reallyunseasonable for us.
I mean, people experienced itall over, but at that point, you
(06:02):
know, we were trying to justtriage and keep, the crops
alive.
It was late June, and we kind ofturned to each other and
realized, like, we can't reallyfarm here anymore, which is what
kind of brought me into all thiswork around climate stress and
grief.
SPEAKER_01 (06:22):
Yeah.
I mean, that's a 20-yearmicrocosm of what's happening,
if you bought it in 98 and sortof, well, 30 years, I guess.
I can't do math.
SPEAKER_00 (06:36):
I usually say 20.
We were there for 25, so yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (06:42):
I mean, going back to even the decision to switch
over to seed crops, had youexhausted, I mean, in your minds
at least, all the practical waysto keep growing fresh market
crops?
SPEAKER_00 (06:57):
There were a number of factors that went into us
transitioning more to seedcrops, particularly We really
enjoy the process of looking atgenetics and working with the
seed companies and restoringvarieties, maintaining
varieties.
It also meant that we didn'thave to do as much marketing
(07:17):
throughout the season, so wereally liked that part of it.
But in the end, it really didcome down to the fact that with
seed crops, you don't have toirrigate after, depending on the
crop, sometime in August orearly September.
SPEAKER_02 (07:32):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00 (07:32):
when we were running out of water.
So that irrigation was a bigpart of it.
We had some really stressfulyears where we got into
September and October and we'rehaving really hot days and
keeping the fresh market producealive was very difficult.
So it was kind of balancing anumber of factors, but in the
(07:53):
end it was way less stressful togrow the seed crops because of
their irrigation needs.
UNKNOWN (08:01):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (08:03):
It sounds to me that every year you were facing
drought, a changing climate, youadapted.
And then that final year withthat heat dump, you said you
turned to each other and said,this isn't working.
Does it feel like it was agradual decision or just finally
at that very end, we cannot dothis anymore?
(08:28):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (08:29):
Yeah, I think, like you said, we continue to adapt.
I work at OSU Extension.
So I was actually working on adrought module.
So I was working on how toeducate farmers to make their
farms more drought resilient.
And so we kind of had all thelatest information.
(08:51):
We were attending conferences.
We were doing our due diligencein terms of professional
development as farmers.
And, and, you know, I think oncethe creek dried up, that was
certainly a significant momentfor us.
But I think we just believed wecould, if we kept doing the
right thing, we could stay.
(09:12):
And yeah, the, the heat dome.
was such a gut punch.
And I think because of when itfell, which was late June, early
July, it was kind of like, well,this is June and July.
What is August going to looklike in terms of heat?
And it just became toostressful.
(09:34):
We were pumping water out of ourlower pond up to our upper pond.
At one point, we actually had tostart just buying truckloads of
water from town I rememberhearing the sound of the trucks
rumbling up our driveway andjust thinking, I cannot believe
we have to do this.
(09:57):
It was really devastating.
It still makes me cry when Italk about it because we had
done so much to stay and we wereso committed to that property.
We'd raised our kids there.
Our whole lives were basedaround...
that place.
And we really felt, you know, asyoung idealists wanting to farm
(10:22):
and feed our community and takecare of land, we felt like it
was so important to commit to apiece of land and stay there.
So it was, yeah, it was verypainful, very painful decision.
SPEAKER_03 (10:38):
Yeah.
I can, I can only imagine.
Yeah.
When you were going through allthis and having all those really
intense feelings, had you heardthe term climate grief before?
Or is that something that youcame to as you were processing
everything that you were goingthrough?
SPEAKER_00 (10:57):
You know, I had heard the term.
I was familiar with JoannaMacy's work.
So I was familiar with the termecological distress, which is
just kind of another name forclimate grief.
Yeah.
there's lots of terms out thereand people prefer some over
(11:18):
others.
And we've actually done somework with farmers to figure out
which terms are kind of the mostaccessible for them as we do
this work.
So I was vaguely familiar withthem, but then to experience it
ourselves and kind of see Inmyself, I noticed that I wasn't
(11:38):
reaching out to friends as much.
I was isolating.
It was hard to sleep.
It was hard to eat.
I was distracted.
Tom and I were fighting, whichisn't really typical in our
relationship.
He was drinking more.
I started to see like, oh,there's all these behaviors and
(12:01):
kind of emotional...
implications of this happening.
I really wanted to get help.
I wanted to figure out how tomanage this.
I'm the type of person that'sproactive.
I go out and try to figure outhow to address issues as they
come up.
I did some internet research andfound Joanna Macy's work, The
(12:23):
Work That Reconnects, which, asI mentioned, addresses
ecological distress.
I signed up for a I think aneight week online program that
fall and just found the work tobe incredibly powerful.
I think, you know, part of it isthat in this day and age
(12:44):
there's, there is so muchisolation and these feelings are
really intense.
I mean, we're all either in LAor we're watching images of LA
right now and it's terrifying.
It's our worst nightmare.
Yeah.
And this is happening regularly.
You know, just a few months ago,we were watching North Carolina
(13:06):
and the Southeast.
And there's a million examples.
Those are two very dramatic onesjust in our very recent memory.
But these feelings are, they'reso large in a lot of cases that
we tend to want to numb out ordistract ourselves or else we
(13:27):
kind of just watch in horror.
actually having a venue to talkabout some of the feelings to
feel normalized was incrediblyhelpful.
And just the amount of empathyand compassion people had for
this kind of agonizing decisionthat we had ahead of us.
(13:50):
Not only were we leaving thisproperty, but we were having to
make a decision about whether ornot to leave Southern Oregon,
where I've had a almost 20-yearcareer at Extension.
We have all of our closestfriends, deep roots in the
community.
And so we actually spent about ayear considering moving to other
(14:16):
areas.
We ended up deciding to staybecause the connections that we
have were so strong here.
But there was that sort ofagonizing process of figuring
out what our next step was.
SPEAKER_01 (14:30):
Yeah.
And you say it's isolating.
I mean, the anxiety itself ofwhat's happening here and what
can we do about it.
And then the idea of you have toleave and then everybody's
leaving because your neighborscan't part either.
I mean, so the isolation getsworse.
(14:55):
Yeah.
In the course you took, weremost of the other students, were
there other students, and werethey also sort of in the same,
going through the sameexperience you were?
I
SPEAKER_00 (15:07):
think I was the only farmer in the group that was
dealing kind of so directly withclimate change impacting the
course of my life, where Ilived, you know, my work, my
family, all these things.
So, you know, a lot of peoplewere working directly either had
a strong connection with theland or their work related to
(15:31):
it.
So they were working in theenvironmental field in some
capacity or other.
Or a lot of people, I remember,were working with kids.
And all the research that'scoming out is just showing the
amount of anxiety and anxietygrief among children around the
climate is so high.
(15:53):
So a lot of them were educatorswho were trying to figure out
how to deal with their own griefso they could really support
these children that they workwith every day.
SPEAKER_03 (16:01):
You had to make the really hard decision to leave,
but you didn't leave farming.
And how is continuing to farm,how does that feel now for you?
SPEAKER_00 (16:19):
It's wonderful.
Tom does most of the farming,and he just loves to farm.
One of the pieces that I talkabout a lot in the workshops I
lead now on climate stress andgrief is this concept of the
agrarian imperative, which manypeople don't know about.
(16:41):
It was a term coined by MichaelRossman, I believe, in 2010.
He's a agricultural psychologistin the Midwest.
And he came up with this theorythat people who farm have this
imperative, this drive tosteward land and to grow food
(17:06):
and fiber.
And he actually posited thatthere was like a genetic
component that this was a traitthat had been passed down But so
what the theory says is thatpeople will actually overcome
(17:26):
incredible amounts of stress.
They'll take sort of inordinaterisks in order to keep growing
food.
And, you know, it's just sointeresting because I, you know,
I learned about it and I talkedto Tom about it and he said, oh,
yeah, I absolutely feel thatway.
I will grow food.
(17:47):
food until the day I die, nomatter what.
And as I talk to farmers inthese classes, you know, I'll
describe the agrarian imperativeand I start to see heads nod and
people saying, yes, that's how Ifeel.
I feel compelled to grow food orfiber beyond what really seems
(18:11):
reasonable.
So in any other vocation, ifthey were dealing with these
types of obstacles and stresses,they would decide, you know, I'm
going to cut my losses andswitch careers.
But with farming, and you hearabout it in other land-based
activities, I've heard it withloggers, with foresters, with
fisher people, that thatconnection is so strong and it's
(18:36):
really compelling for people.
So I like to talk about itbecause I do feel like it's
important for people to feelaffirmed in that.
Like, yeah, to outsiders whodon't understand agriculture, it
might seem crazy to want to keepfarming given the type of stress
(18:56):
that we're under, especiallywith the climate change.
But this is real, or thisagrarian imperative is
documented.
And thank goodness, right?
Thank goodness that people wantto keep farming despite how
challenging it is.
And it kind of gives us all themore reason to be supporting
(19:20):
farmers as much as we can.
So
SPEAKER_01 (19:23):
tell me, talk a little bit about sort of how
you've been sharing support andhelping others face this reality
of a changing climate and tryingto keep farming and the stress
that those things bring.
SPEAKER_00 (19:41):
Right.
I mean, I think when I startedthinking about how to talk to
farmers about this, how to leadworkshops or classes, you know,
farmers are so practical andthat's what we love about them
is like they want.
So they're solution oriented.
You know, I've got an issue withmy soil.
I want to figure out whatamendment I need.
(20:04):
I want the latest technology onirrigation to conserve water.
You know, there's very much aproblem solving, pull yourself
up by your bootstrap mentalitythat I love about the farmers I
work with.
But this is a little bitdifferent.
And so it was challenging for meto think about how there's no
(20:24):
silver bullet to the emotionalfeeling, the emotions that we're
having around climate grief.
So what actually is supportive?
And so early in my work, Ibrought in a clinical
psychologist to help me.
And she really talked about theimportance of naming
experiences.
(20:45):
So that there's something calledlike a psycho education, which
is just the idea that actuallyknowing that this phenomenon
that you're experiencing isnormal.
So validating that.
and giving people words andnames for what they're
(21:05):
experiencing.
So just so many people, we'vesurveyed farmers who've attended
our workshops, and up to 50%have never heard of these terms,
climate stress and grief.
And so suddenly they have a namefor what they're experiencing.
And just to say, you know, 100%,of the farmers that we
(21:28):
interviewed this summer, weinterviewed 50 farmers, and 100%
of them said they areexperiencing some level of
climate stress and or climategrief.
So they're all experiencing it,but they don't have a name for
it.
So just literally being able toname what you're experiencing is
(21:48):
hugely helpful to understand howclimate stress and climate grief
differs from other types ofstress and grief.
So there are unique ways thatthey differ from those griefs
and stresses that we talk aboutmore commonly in our lives to
understand how they would impactfarmers more than other folks.
(22:10):
And then to start to, then we gointo some experiential parts of
climate stress and grief.
We also talk about differenttypes of behaviors you might
notice because often peoplewon't even be aware that they're
experiencing emotions but theymight notice that you know
(22:34):
they're kind of cutting cornersin their farm operation or they
like I said with myself likethey're isolating from friends
they're not they quit the clubthat they used to be a part of
so Getting people to see like,oh, you know, some of these
behaviors are, yeah, they'redrinking more.
(22:55):
Some of those behaviors mayactually be a sign that there's
underlying stress or griefpresent that actually needs to
be kind of brought up andaddressed.
SPEAKER_03 (23:09):
You said earlier that climate stress, climate
grief is different than othertypes of grief.
Can you explain a little bitmore the difference?
SPEAKER_00 (23:19):
Sure, yeah.
So typically, when we think ofgrief, you know, we think of
often someone dying, a pet or aloved one.
And those griefs are, you know,they can be terrible.
They can be devastating, take along time to heal from.
But they are discreet, right?
(23:41):
So typically, it's like yourgrandfather dies or your dog
dies.
Climate grief is...
ongoing and it's overwhelming.
So we've already lost so much.
We continue to lose more.
We know that there's more tolose in the future.
So it's this sort of unendinggrief without resolution.
(24:01):
Many griefs for people, and notin all cases, certainly they're
complicated deaths like withsuicide or murder or even an
accident, where the feelings canbe really complicated, but it
tends to be a lot of sadness andloss.
(24:22):
Whereas climate grief is reallycomplicated and they're
terrified for the future.
Like, will I even be able tobreathe in so many years?
What about my kids andgrandkids?
So there's a ton of fear.
There's also guilt.
You know, people are like, oh, Iwant to fly across the country
(24:42):
and see my cousin, but my carbonfootprint?
Or am I doing enough?
Should I quit my job and justspend my whole life being an
activist for climate?
So we're constantly, the societywe live in, we're constantly
forced to make all thesecompromises and decisions that
(25:03):
we've been told that are goingto impact the climate.
And then, of course, there'sintense sadness.
So we hear about the loss of allthese species.
We see these homes being burned.
We see animals suffering throughdrought and wildfire and floods.
So there's just like intenseamounts of sadness.
(25:26):
So it's a really complicated setof feelings.
And that, like I said, in somecases, you can have that kind of
suite of emotions with certaintypes of death.
But typically, you know, itwould be more of that kind of
sadness loss quadrant.
Oh, and then the last thing Iwant to say in terms of how
(25:50):
climate grief is different thanother grief is that it's
considered a disenfranchisedgrief.
So, you know, when we lose aperson, there's all kinds of
cultural ways, the rituals, youknow, we have a memorial or a
funeral.
People might bring you meals.
(26:11):
If you're lucky, you'll havesome bereavement leave from your
job.
So there's lots of ways that weknow to practice experiencing
that loss that's culturallyvalidated.
And then disenfranchised griefs,this could be a miscarriage or a
(26:37):
divorce or you move away.
And no one really thinks like,oh, there's all these ways to
sort of acknowledge that lossof, you know, you're moving away
from all your friends.
So climate grief is similarly,it's a disenfranchised grief
because we don't currently havedifferent ways as a community to
(26:59):
validate that experience.
So people are tending to grievealone in isolation rather than,
you know, out in the communitywhere they can be supported.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (27:11):
Are there lessons from that that you bring into
your workshops?
Is there sort of a way to makethis more culturally accepted or
practiced?
SPEAKER_00 (27:26):
Yeah, I mean, some of the work that we do in our
longer workshops, we sometimeswill have everybody in the room
share one thing that they'velost to climate change.
or something that they'venoticed change in the landscape
that's affected them personally.
And we do that as kind of agroup process of sharing.
(27:49):
And it's really powerful becausepeople will share deeply
personal losses.
And I think it is another,Stacey, to go back to your
question about how it differs,climate grief can be so
overwhelming.
And we tend to focus on thingsthat like the loss of polar
(28:10):
bears or the Great Barrier Reefdying, or even things like
looking at LA burn.
But we tend to distanceourselves from the really
personal losses that we'reexperiencing ourselves because
they're so painful.
So we actually get people toname those things.
(28:31):
And it is a type of ritual.
And so people are sharing thesewith each other And it's really
profound.
You know, people will cry,people will express anger.
But just for example, you know,we've had farmers talk about the
fact that, you know, they nolonger see the same number of
(28:54):
pollinators on their crops.
So they no longer see bumblebeesin their fields.
Someone talked about the factthat their community used to
have a Fish Friday.
So they'd go fishing at a locallake and then they would all,
you know, they cook up the fishand it was this big community
(29:14):
event.
Well, now the temperature in thelake is too high to sustain
life.
So there are no longer any fishin that lake.
So not only are those fish gone,but that community ritual of
getting together and fishing andcooking up the fish together is
also gone.
That's considered like asecondary or tertiary loss where
(29:34):
the fish is the primary loss.
So people are talking aboutthese deeply personal losses.
And, you know, just that sharingand witnessing process is really
profound.
And Steve, to answer yourquestion, too, I did want to add
that when we moved away fromWolf Gulch, I did hold a ritual,
(29:57):
a circle ritual.
Tom did not participate just tonote so that was not his way of
saying goodbye to the land butwe've had so many people that
have a relationship with WolfGulch that you know friends that
have just come over the yearsand have lots of memories and so
(30:18):
it was a little bit of like amemorial you know and obviously
the land goes on and the landcontinues but it was an
opportunity for us to gettogether and talk about what we
loved about the propertymemories, what we would miss.
And that was really beautiful.
And that, that helped me a lotto have that kind of community
support and validation for whatI was losing by moving.
SPEAKER_03 (30:45):
The ritual you went through was very powerful for
you.
And it sounds with everybodysharing in the workshops, it's
powerful for, for them.
I'm curious, how do you feellike they're getting drawn?
So when you're trying to bringpeople to your workshops, how do
they recognize that this is aworkshop for them?
(31:07):
Like what language are youusing?
And then what are they leavingwith?
SPEAKER_00 (31:12):
Yeah, great question, Stacey.
Yeah.
To answer your first question,you know, I know farmers, I've
worked with them for 20 years.
they're not going to show up toa three-hour workshop on climate
emotions.
There's no way.
And so when I initially had thisconcept, the idea was to create
(31:34):
a 30-minute module that could beembedded in other programming.
And so often as an agriculturaleducator, I'll be putting on or
I'll be collaborating on aday-long day long or half day
program.
And there's, you know, a halfhour here or there that we we
need some programming.
(31:54):
So the idea was to have this besort of a teaser to give people
a name for what they'reexperiencing.
But, you know, not to try todraw people to a workshop
specifically on this.
And that worked really well.
And we did survey everybody.
And I think it was 91% of thefarmers that attended that
(32:17):
little half-hour workshop wantedmore.
But like you said, they didn'teven know they were experiencing
climate grief until that30-minute workshop.
So they sort of needed thatintroduction to the concept
before they would want to attenda longer workshop.
So we are still, we're only ayear and a half into this
(32:39):
project.
So we're still trying to figureout the best ways to reach
farmers.
We found that conferences wherewe can host an hour and a half
long session are really popular.
And I think, again, that'sbecause people are signed up for
an entire conference and thenthey're going to this one
(33:00):
offering.
But I think it is hard toattract people to a longer
session.
So that was to answer thatquestion.
The other question is a greatone in terms of what people
leave with.
So we will do that practice ofnaming what people have lost.
And the room tends to feel veryheavy and somber at that point.
(33:23):
And then we switch to talk aboutresilience strategies.
And we really use astrengths-based approach.
I tell the farmers like, You'reobviously resilient.
You obviously are coping becauseyou're here.
You're at this conference.
You're at this workshop.
You're still farming.
You got up out of bed today.
(33:44):
And so let's do a skill share.
Tell everybody else in the room,what are the practices that you
do that help you handle theseemotions that are healthy?
And it's really beautiful whatpeople share at that point.
We frame it as a skill share toencourage people to talk.
(34:05):
You can help the other people inthis room.
But more and more, what I'vebeen reading about is that there
is no silver bullet to climateemotions and climate stress.
But all of the research showsthere are better outcomes when
people talk about thesefeelings.
(34:26):
They are more resilient.
They are more connected to theircommunity.
And interestingly, they're morelikely to take action.
So they're actually more likelyto have agency around making
positive changes, whether it'son their farms or in their
lives, getting involved ratherthan doing this kind of numbing
(34:48):
out distraction and tuning outto what's happening.
So We do that resilience processand it's really wonderful
because by the time we leave,people are feeling energized,
excited, they're feelingconnected to one another.
And so, yeah, we try to leave onthat positive note.
(35:10):
But it's really, I've beennoting, I've been making sure
that I document all of theresilience strategies that come
out of all these workshops.
And so I've noticed some trendsand they fall roughly into
different buckets of resiliencestrategies.
Some are like self-care, likepeople will meditate or they
(35:34):
will make sure they get enoughsleep or whatever it is that's
kind of around self-care.
Some of it is around connecting,so making sure that they're
nurturing those relationships,they're having family dinners at
least a couple times a week withtheir kids.
(35:54):
Some of it's connecting withnature and animals.
Lots of people talk about howgoing and sitting by a river for
a few hours, or not a few hours,not hours, even just sitting by
the river for 20 minutes canmake them feel kind of restored
and connected.
We had one farmer who talkedabout how he makes sure he's got
(36:17):
three cats, three barn cats.
He pets each of those cats everyday for a little while.
And that gives him that sense ofkind of connection and joy that
helps him keep going in therougher moments.
And then you have people talkabout taking action.
So going to testify or writeletters, signing up to be part
(36:38):
of an organization that'sworking on climate change.
And then people talk aboutlimiting technology, so making
sure they're not inundatingthemselves with all this
terrible news that just makesthem feel despairing but isn't
actually encouraging them totake any action.
So it ends up making them feelmore paralyzed than inspired or
(37:01):
activated.
So we end with that and thenencourage people to continue
talking about these issues withtheir neighbors and making sure
that they're engaging in theseresilience practices.
So as I've been reading more andmore about climate grief, what I
(37:22):
hear is that we have thesestates of distress.
So when we're watching the newsabout LA or we're seeing our
landscape change or whatever itis, we feel these difficult
emotions.
And so In order to manage that,we actually have to be also
seeking out these states ofresilience, which I think of as
(37:47):
joy, connection, and agency.
And so, you know, figuring outfor yourself, what are the
activities that bring thatsense?
Because we're going to need thatmore and more so that we can
toggle back and forth betweenthe states of distress and the
states of resilience.
So
SPEAKER_01 (38:06):
just, I mean, That was going to be my last question
was like, what can people do?
And I love that you went throughall those different buckets of
resilient kind of behaviors.
If somebody is listening to thisand have come across this for
the first time and hasrecognized, oh my gosh, that's
what I'm feeling.
(38:30):
What's one thing they can do andone place they can go to help
start to understand it and startto feel better or connect.
SPEAKER_00 (38:44):
Yeah, I mean, there's lots of great
organizations and they arelisted on our website.
So rather than try to name themhere, you could go to our
website and look underresources.
You know, some people aren'tgroup people.
Like I said, Tom doesn't want totalk to anybody about his
feelings except maybe me.
So But the research, again, doesshow that actually talking about
(39:08):
these emotions in groups is evenmore beneficial than one-on-one
therapy.
So there is something about thegroup model that I think can be
really useful to a lot ofpeople.
And more and more, there arethese groups.
They're called climate cafes.
You can find them on Zoom or inyour community.
But having a chance to just bein a space where you can feel
(39:31):
like it's important to talkabout these issues time and
again I hear people say I don'tI have all these feelings but I
don't want to talk to my friendsI don't want to talk at a party
or a potluck about thesefeelings because no one wants to
hear it it's too depressing andso finding a space or maybe it's
(39:52):
you know a friend or a group offriends that you feel safe
talking about with this withthat aren't going to shut you
down or get really you knowemotionally triggered So you can
talk about your feelings.
So it's first reallyacknowledging the feelings,
getting to know them better.
We have this great resourcecalled the Climate Wheel, a
(40:14):
climate emotions wheel, which isalso on our website.
And it's interesting.
We have people look.
There's four quadrants.
There's fear, sadness, anger,and hope, actually, a positive
one.
But you can start to like, see,where do you fall on this
climate emotions wheel?
Do you tend to feel more fear?
(40:34):
Do you tend to feel more anger?
So getting to be familiar withsome of your emotions is
actually helpful.
Just being able to name thefeelings.
And then so there's like reallygiving yourself some space to
feel these feelings, validatingthe feelings.
Of course, you feel grief.
Of course, you feel anger.
(40:55):
Like, That's an appropriateresponse to what's happening.
There is nothing pathologicalabout experiencing climate
stress and grief.
We are living in a reallydifficult time where we're
facing major losses that reallydidn't need to happen.
So these emotions are completelyvalid.
(41:16):
So giving yourself space to feelthem and then, yeah, identifying
like, you know, what are theactivities that that make me
feel joy, that make me feelconnected, that make me feel
like I'm ready to do somethingand then seeking those out and
cultivating those in your life.
So in broad strokes, those arekind of the two steps I would
(41:37):
say that people, you know,experiencing this and wanting to
address it in their lives shouldtake or could take.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Thanks.
SPEAKER_03 (41:47):
Thank you, Mon.
Yeah.
You referenced your website acouple of times.
We'll definitely put it in thenotes and all the social media
promo and stuff, but do you wantto say what your website is?
SPEAKER_00 (41:58):
It's an ugly website name, but perhaps easier for
listeners is if you just GoogleOregon State University climate
grief, it comes right up.
SPEAKER_02 (42:11):
Perfect.
SPEAKER_00 (42:12):
That's great.
SPEAKER_03 (42:15):
Well, thank you, Maude.
This was...
Yeah, this is an intense one.
It's great work, but you alsohave a lot of really good tips
for people, ideas for people onhow to work with this, how to
identify it and work with this.
So thank you.
Thank
SPEAKER_00 (42:31):
you so much for having me.
Appreciate
SPEAKER_02 (42:35):
it.
UNKNOWN (42:36):
Thanks.
SPEAKER_03 (42:43):
Thank you for listening to Fresh Growth.
We hope you enjoyed thisepisode.
For more information on WesternSARE Grounds and our learning
resources, visitwesternsare.org.
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