April 26, 2022 • 50 mins
***SPECIAL CROSSOVER EPISODE***
Katie Jones bring her signature combination of reality TV expertise and patience for Shai's complete lack of understanding of reality TV in this special edition of Finding Favorites with Leah Jones.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hi, I'm Katie Jones, and I love reality TV.
Welcome to the Finding Favorites podcast, where we
explore your favorite things without using an algorithm.
Here's your host, Leah Jones.
Welcome to another episode of
Finding Favorites with Leah Jones.
This is Shy returning again, gratefully as a guest host
(00:24):
for Liam always thankful that Leah will let me pop
in and bring some of my favorite people.
I feel like this is a whole subset of
I get to interview favorite people or bucket list
favorite people for a show about favorites where they
get to talk about their favorites.
And today is no exception.
We are going to interview Katie Jones.
(00:47):
No relation to Leah Jones.
Katie Jones, a dear friend of mine, a
leader in the world of nonprofit organizations, someone
who's really making a difference in the world.
And what I wanted to talk to
her about, of course, was reality TV.
(01:07):
Of course, because Katie is someone
I know who loves reality TV.
And I'll say this, I know lots
of people who love reality TV.
And there is not a subject I'm less interested
in, which is what makes this conversation even better,
because I have talked to Katie about reality TV.
And I walk away from it, still not ever
(01:30):
wanting to watch it, but wanting to watch Katie
talk and speak about it because the significance that
she brings to these different threads and how she
can explain why each one matters is one of
the most compelling things I've ever heard.
So I'm really thrilled that I get to
share this with Leah and her audience. Katie, welcome.
(01:52):
Thanks for doing this.
Thank you for having me.
I'm delighted to be here.
I am so excited because you're one
of the smartest people I know.
You're someone that I go to for advice.
Actually, everyone in my family,
big life changes coming.
Katy lives across the street from us.
We're like I need to block out some
time to go for a walk with Katie.
That is a big thing in our world,
(02:13):
and I am delighted to do so.
You're such a wise person.
And so I want to know how
someone who's so wise also has room.
I mean, look, I have room for
stuff in my brain that I shouldn't.
Someone who's so wise.
But what is compelling to you about
just the world of reality TV overall?
(02:34):
Well, it's interesting you say that, because I
actually think the thing that interests me about
my nonprofit work is the exact same thing
that interests me about reality TV.
And that's that I'm genuinely curious about things.
I'm curious about people.
I'm curious about the decisions they make.
I'm curious about how they live.
I'm curious about the assumptions that they make.
(02:57):
And that is what makes my work in the
nonprofit world really interesting because so many different stakeholders
have so many different what I would call mental
models about the way things work.
And that is definitely true.
On reality TV, just like the premise of
some of these of like, of course, whatever.
This thing is, like the acceptable thing.
And that's crazy to me.
(03:17):
I'm still curious about that.
So I think that's actually what kind
of threads together in my life is,
like my infinite curiosity about things.
This is like a model, I think, for how people
should just be living where they talk about approaching the
world with curiosity because you never cease to amaze me.
All right.
Reality TV.
(03:37):
How did you discover?
Is this something like my sister Becky, she
I don't think she watched reality TV.
She kind of looked down on it.
And then when she got pregnant and was home with
her first kid, suddenly she knew all about it.
Or is this something more formative, like
going back to the early, early days?
So it's interesting you say that.
(03:58):
So before I begin, I want to give a shout out
to Kathleen McMahon and Dana Seltzer, who helped me prepare for
this interview because I had one set of answers.
And then as I thought about it more
and talked about it with them, they were
like, no, don't you remember this show?
And I was like, oh, my goodness.
So you consulted.
I know of these people.
I prepped for this interview.
(04:18):
Like, I'm taking this seriously.
This is amazing.
If I could talk about my work to the extent I could
talk about reality TV, I would be in a far better spot.
This is amazing.
These are wonderful, amazing people.
But I love that they were now part of this decision.
Absolutely 100% shout out to Kathleen and Dana.
That's amazing. Okay.
(04:39):
So how it got started, I would obviously
say and I'm sure many people who are
listening will remember Real World New York, right?
That is ground zero.
Before reality TV was a reality TV thing.
I certainly remember that.
And I remember watching that because that
to me, it was prereality TV. Exactly.
(04:59):
There wasn't a genre.
And I remember flipping on much music in
Canada, which is, I think, where it re
aired, and they were all sitting in a
circle, and there were these different types of
people with different backgrounds, and there were conflicts.
Now going up in a Jewish day school in Montreal,
there were people from different backgrounds in my school, but
(05:21):
not any of the folks that you saw to the
extent that you might see to this day, even though
I get I'm an avowed non watcher of the show.
I remember so much about that first season because I feel
like it did change the way people looked at TV.
Oh, absolutely.
And again, I don't know if you know, but
now they're actually bringing back some of the real
(05:43):
worlds again on MTV, like 30 years later and
actually putting them in the same house.
So it was like a four or five part series not
that long ago where they brought back all of the cast
of New York, and they stayed for a week. Wow.
In the loft, even Eric Meese.
Well, okay, here's spoiler.
So you might want to stop if you haven't seen
(06:04):
this, but they were all excited to get together.
And then Eric got coveted, and so
he actually couldn't go to the loft.
And so part of what they did was
they actually ventured out as a group, and
we're talking to him from his balcony.
And he was kind of like podcast in, if
you will, for some of the group conversations.
He was intended to be there,
(06:24):
but again, reality, he got coveted.
He was quarantined.
He couldn't even do the experience.
And they brought back La
with Tammy from Basketball Wives.
We'll get to Basketball Wives.
That's a crossover.
And now they're also bringing back New Orleans. Okay.
Wow.
Okay, so this is like teenage years, then reality TV.
(06:46):
So that's kind of where it started.
But if I was going to go deep and
shout out to Dana for helping me with this,
I actually think my first foray, like, seriously into
reality television was what not to Wear?
When was that that aired for, like, 15 years, really?
But what was so interesting to me was, again, like,
(07:07):
I was just interested in people and how they got
to present themselves in a certain way and their stories
that they told themselves that Stacey and Clinton and what
not to Wear would really help them unpack about.
Like, why are you so tired?
Why do you think this makes you look sexy or good?
And can we give you another option?
(07:29):
And it's not to say what you're doing now is
bad, but let's see if you can be better.
And what that would unpack when they would, like, not
only get new clothes, but get new hair and makeup.
And you would see these people saying, I
never thought I was beautiful before, and now
I think I'm beautiful, and it would really
transform the way they held themselves.
And that was also very satisfying within
(07:50):
45 minutes, like, start to finish.
Was that a serial show?
Because one thing I want to touch on is that
I wasn't into the ones that were like a serial.
Like, I had to follow this group of people
around because I'm not that interested in real people.
I can't tell you how many hours of Eliminate
and what's the limited fifth wheel I watched.
(08:12):
Do I have to start watching these now?
These are old, but I would love to show
you these were on just you and me.
We watched Elimidate episodes
like Mystery Science Theater.
That is interesting.
So Eliminate was in the wake.
It was in the early 2000s or maybe late night.
(08:33):
I was in College, and I think it was on back
when Spike TV still existed or before Spike TV or Spike
TV when it was like TNN or something, whatever it was.
And it was like the simplest premise, a man or woman
starts the half hour episode with three people on a date.
(08:54):
And at each commercial, one of them is
eliminated, usually right before the third commercial.
There's a hot tub scene where
people are taking off their tops.
But it's a regular TV, so it was
by today's standards, this is probably like G
rated Sesame Street kind of show.
I really liked that one.
But the one that I also thought
(09:16):
was awesome, like a variation of that.
And Aisha Tyler hosted it.
So it was funnier.
It was a little bit funnier.
That one was there were five people on a date,
three from one gender and two from the other.
Again, this is like very much
that era straight people, right? Yeah.
(09:37):
The ultimate and heteronormative.
I think these shows would be much more interesting.
Now, again, I don't exactly remember how it works, but there
would be two people on a double date, and then they
throw in a fifth wheel who would try to steal someone,
and then somehow there'd be two people at the end.
I don't know what people want in this.
Like, maybe they got, like, dinner paid
(09:58):
for at, like, an Olive Garden.
And then there was one more variation
where they sent people on a cruise.
It was called, like, Ship Below or Ship.
In my mind, Chris Hardwick posted it,
but I don't think he did that's.
Like my worst nightmare.
Like, you're trapped on a ship with people. Oh, my gosh.
Yeah.
And there's always a part where they say they're going to bed,
(10:24):
and then one of them sneaks out and goes to the dance
club on the ship and it's always the same ship.
It's really weird.
And then the other time I would say I was attracted to
reality TV was I watched tell me if you watched this.
Who Wants to Marry a Millionaire?
(10:44):
J Thomas hosted the show.
Darva Conger was the winner.
And she married that guy.
And they were divorced. Yes.
Because he was abusive. Right.
He turned out to not be a nice guy.
So it's really good that you brought
this up, because that's an important distinction.
I do think it's important for me to make in my
own reality choices is I don't like watching the ones that
(11:06):
are tragic and Who Wants to Marry a Millionaire?
The loneliness that is at the core of
that is just too tragic for me.
Like 90 Day Fiance.
I can't do it.
It's too sad. Okay.
90 Day Fiance is like people who it is exactly
what it sounds like, somebody who wants a visa.
(11:27):
They make a show about that.
It is in, like, its 20th season.
It's probably among TLC's top rated now.
They even have spin offs of, like, before
the 90 Day and after the 90 day.
What exactly are we learning from the Learning Channel?
How to break immigration laws.
Probably how to monetize misery. Okay.
It's probably the best thing that you can. Okay.
(11:48):
I'm with you there.
Misery is not my idea.
I'm not there for those types of shows.
It's just too sad.
I will recommend to you, though, just in the
new genre, Love Is Blind, I hear a lot
of great stuff about that, probably largely from me.
And I can't stop talking.
Well, and I want to say our regular host, Leah Jones
(12:08):
of this show is a huge fan of Love This Blind. Yes.
So highly.
We should talk about that later.
But that is one that, as I understand it,
takes a little bit of the superficiality out of
it for a second component of it. Correct.
So what happens is two people start
dating, but they never see each other.
They're in something they call pods, and you talk in
(12:30):
a microphone, basically on either side of a wall, and
you basically determine if you share the same values, if
you share the same goals, and then if you do,
then you kind of move on to the next round.
Is it distorted voices?
Like, do they sound like The Scream?
Okay, so it's their actual voice.
It is their actual voices.
And the idea is that you can actually
(12:51):
propose to a person without ever seeing them.
The goal of this is marriage.
The goal of this is marriage.
The finale is do they say yes at the altar?
And it actually follows them from the pods where some
of them get engaged to their honeymoons, quote, unquote or
engagement moons in Mexico for a couple of days, then
(13:11):
they move to their home city, move in together.
It all takes place over like six to eight weeks.
And it's fascinating.
But the whole premise is, is love really blind?
Like, is love and your kind of connection around
values and goals enough to carry you through?
And some people get married and some people don't.
(13:32):
But it's so interesting.
Again, season one of Love Is Blinded.
This better than season two.
But when the couple sit down and talk about
money, that's the most fascinating thing to me.
That's a big value conversation. Right.
And but like, your mental models
about what you, quote, unquote need.
I mean, that's a really big deal.
(13:53):
And to see people kind of juggle that with
somebody they're engaged to, it's fascinating to me.
So before we take our first break, which will be
in a moment, so here I feel like you're maybe
hitting on something that aside from your curiosity and the
fact that you feel like you've learned stuff from this,
(14:14):
do you think then that there are actual relationship lessons
that people can get from some of these shows?
Because I will say, like Queer Eye,
which I classify as reality TV. Yes.
Because it follows that sort of makeover thing.
My kids and wife watch that show
nonstop, and I love almost no.
(14:34):
Pretty much everything my kids have learned from
that show to me has been like a
positive learning opportunity because of the values and
sort of the way that show tracks.
I'm not saying all of these shows are for kids.
Do you think that self aware enough people can
(14:55):
actually learn about relationships and what to do and
what not to do from some of these things?
Or is it purely mindless entertainment?
I think that's a good question for
me to ponder after the break. Okay. All right.
Cliff anger people.
We'll be back in a moment.
(15:21):
We are back with Katie Jones.
We're going to get to the question about
what people can learn in a moment.
But I also want to talk about that this episode
could have been entirely just instead of about reality TV.
It could have just been about diet root beer
because Katie and I both love diet root beer.
Katie brought me well, she brought both of us each, but
she brought me my own very cold diet root beer, which
(15:43):
is a little bit of a tradition between us.
We go to each other's house and bring rodeo beer.
I'm going to open mine right now by
the microphone because what's better sound is that?
Yeah.
All right, I got you, Shai. All right.
So I took a swig of my diet roopier.
Katie, are there learning opportunities in these
(16:04):
shows or do you have to be,
like, extra evolved to learn from them? Yeah.
I don't think any self evolved person would
try to find meaning in these shows. Okay.
So it's funny because I was actually thinking about
this as I prepared for this podcast is in
reality TV, there's kind of like a sorting. Right.
Like in the sense of there's Bachelor
Nation people and there's Real Housewives people.
(16:25):
And so even, like, before you get into
the genre, I think there's people almost like
you or me where they're like reality TV. No, thank you.
Or reality TV.
Like, yes, please. Got it. Okay.
And so I don't think any
self aware person bold statement.
I don't think any self aware person would be
like, now I understand how to talk with my
spouse about money because I watched Love Is Lie.
(16:45):
I don't think anyone saying that.
I get it.
They may pick up some tips or point or
point to their spouse and say, you do that,
but that's not what they're going into.
This the most recent one, one of the guys just said
to his, quote unquote fiance, I don't believe in 401 KS.
(17:06):
And I was like, how do you not believe in them?
Like they exist.
Like what?
How can they be fiction? Right? Exactly.
It's like I don't believe there's
a microphone in front of me. Like, what? Got it. Okay.
So I don't think you're taking much lessons.
All right, so you talked about Bachelor Nation.
You talked about Real House wise.
Let's sketch out the different types we've alluded
(17:28):
to a few different in my mind, I
have like these there are like makeover shows,
there's competition shows, there's relationship shows.
But that, to me, seems almost
like a very pedestrian division.
I feel like you could maybe give us a
little bit more in the category world here. Sure.
I can try. Okay.
(17:49):
Because I will say this if you
can also maybe recommend because finding favorites.
The theme of finding favorites is
essentially finding recommendations without an algorithm.
You're listening to somebody
who's passionate about something.
So maybe even you could sprinkle in saying,
if you like X, you'll like this kind,
because they seem to scratch different emotional areas.
(18:13):
So I would actually categorize Queer Eye almost
the same way I would categorize like a
Project Runway or a Top Chef.
It is about a craft.
It is about a talent.
Like Bobby on Queer Eye knows interior design. Right.
And you can probably take something from his
adhesive wallpaper or whatever and apply it.
(18:35):
But it's like the people are on that
show because they have a real talent.
Like it's an actual craft versus
something like the Real Housewives franchise.
Really, the talent those women have
as being completely unapologetic for anything.
(18:56):
If you are bombastic and unapologetic, you
would qualify and enjoy Real Housewives.
What I would actually recommend, if you are
a person who's, again, like, curious about different
friendships, I always recommend to everyone.
I always recommend to everyone, basketball wise.
(19:19):
Early seasons of Basketball Wives.
This follows Shaquille O'Neill's ex wife Shoddy,
and her friendships with various women who
are married to basketball stars.
Now tie back to Realworld La, where Tammy
was also married to Kenny Anderson, who played,
(19:41):
I think, for the Knicks or the Nets.
And so she makes an
appearance back on Basketball Lives.
And these are women who have helped each other raise
children because the kids, their husbands were always on the
road, and they have known each other for decades.
And that is like real, deep, interesting friendship.
And now they're kind of thrust
(20:02):
into the reality TV realm.
They have what I would consider, like,
true friendship, conversations about race, about class.
Oh, wow. Okay.
So it's not simply just people fighting over
who got invited to the charity fundraiser.
Contrary to what, the only Real Housewives I ever really
(20:25):
watched in any detail was the Bethany Jill Zarin one.
And that seemed all people did. Sure.
Well, I would say Basketball Wives again.
I'm going out on a limb here. Bold statement.
I think that's far more substantive. Okay.
I mean, it was the first time I
ever heard colorism talked about on reality TV. Wow.
Okay, so there you go.
(20:46):
So rather than classifying things as competition and wives in
the title, it seems like you're drawing the thread more
around what the people bring to the table.
Top Chef and Queer Eye.
I'm hearing this is about talent
and craft and experts and Basketball
(21:07):
Wives is about friendship and relationship.
I would almost see it more like a substantive spectrum.
Like, I would consider like Top
Chef, Queer Eye, Project Runway.
Those are substantive shows.
And then I would kind of move up
the spectrum to like a Basketball Wives.
And then I would actually probably put next to
that sister Wives TLC that's following a polygamist family.
(21:32):
Okay.
And then probably on the other end of the
spectrum, I would put a lot of other Bravo
shows, such as some of the Real Housewives and
like a summer house, Winterhouse situation.
There's a summer house and Winterhouse. Oh, my gosh.
Yes, it's great. Okay.
What's down on the bottom on the far
(21:56):
end of no substance because 98 and fiance
sounds tragic, but maybe isn't no substance.
What is no substance?
No substance.
I would actually say again, and there's going
to be a variation within Real Housewives franchises.
But I would say on the real end of no substance.
And this is going to be controversial because I'm going
(22:16):
to say something not so nice about my home state.
But Real Housewives of New Jersey, no substance.
That is just like the people are dense
and they are there because they have understood
how to make a reality TV show.
And it has become so contrived that
I find it hard to watch.
(22:37):
And if I find it hard
to watch, like that says something.
Speaking of New Jersey, another angle that was
a huge deal was the Jersey Shore.
Oh, yes, absolutely.
So on one hand, I love the Jersey Shore.
Being born in Philly and vacationing
(22:58):
in the Jersey Shore every summer.
I used to go to Seaside.
I didn't go to Seaside, but it's near Wildwood, right?
No, I think Wildwood is south.
They don't go to Wildwood.
It is a dump.
When my mom when I told her I was going
to Seaside after prom, like the look on her face.
But I didn't know any different until I went
(23:18):
someplace like beautiful, like Spring Lake, and I was
like, EW, my mom let me go to Seaside.
So Jersey Shore takes place in Seaside.
Anyway, I love the Jersey.
Not necessarily the Jersey Shore that's in
the show, but we've been to so
many different places over the years.
I love it so much.
So when it became popular, I did enjoy that
(23:39):
the Jersey store was getting a moment in the
sun, but it didn't seem the wrong reason.
But I want to give those original. Okay.
Guests never watched an episode of the show.
Really more than a few seconds.
But I know who Cookie is, who Jaywow
is, who Polly Situation, the sitch situation.
(24:03):
No.
But then there was like the sort of nice
kind of dumb one who had the girlfriend, Ronnie. Ronnie.
That's it.
And then she was like Samantha or Sammy sweetheart.
Yeah. Yeah.
She has not continued to roll, but they are all still
on TV, on MTV, if you want to dip it. Really?
Oh, yes, they do.
Family vacation stations now, quote, unquote together.
Yeah.
And they go to the Poconos.
(24:25):
I go to all these places.
Can you imagine the Jersey Shore people at the Poconos?
You can, because they filmed it.
So these are like they're in their 40s now.
Definitely, like strong 30s.
So what do you think makes a reality star like a
Snookie and a Polly in a situation that are still kind
(24:47):
of driving or even an Eric niece who went on to
be a VJ versus now a spiritual healer?
Okay, that's better than he's selling NFT.
What do you think makes them or a Bethany, right.
That's her name. Bethany Frankel. Yes.
What do you think makes certain folks
truly become a brand beyond their show?
(25:10):
Is it talent?
Is it smart?
Is it just flashing a pan?
Because Snooki can't still be working if she is
kind of the character she simply played on TV? Sure.
I think personally I would venture to
say it's authenticity, which is what I
think actually really resonated with people.
(25:31):
I remember because Jersey Shore came out
right around the 2008 2009 recession.
And I remember reading a piece in like the
Washington Post or the Slate or something like that.
And it basically said, we all got so fancy
these last couple of years before the recession.
The Jersey Shore reminds us of the people we hung
(25:52):
out with before we decided we were fancy, interesting.
And so I think there is something, again, that
crew was unapologetic about who they are and what
they believed and what they wanted to do.
And I think there's something when they're
truly authentic about it, they mean it.
I think that's something really compelling.
(26:13):
I think especially now with so much
social media and so much seems so
inauthentic when you actually get those Nuggets.
I think that's something.
And like Bethany's drive that was fundamental to her
her as an entrepreneur, people connected to that?
I think.
So why do you think that she, let's say out did
(26:35):
I guess her and Jill Zarin had the falling out?
They did.
You're hanging in there for a person who doesn't watch
reality TV, but I feel like some of this stuff
is dated, but things like a Bachelor, I couldn't tell.
I think one of the guys from the New York
Giants was a Bachelor once, and that's all I know.
Right.
I'm not a Bachelor person.
I'm a real Housewives person.
(26:57):
So Bethany and Jill have this falling out.
Clearly, the Bravo brand sides with Bethany because Jill maybe
gets, as I understand it, like a guest spot once
in a while just so they can humiliate her or
the Countess can punch her or uninvited her to something
because there's a Countess, there is a Duchess, whatever.
What do you think makes the company say,
(27:18):
okay, we're putting our money behind Bethany?
Is it ratings? No.
Bravo gets a cut if you promote a product on the show.
Part of your agreement is that you agree
to give Bravo a portion of your proceeds
and Bethany has like a multimillion dollar company.
(27:40):
Got it.
So, I mean, I forget what skinny girl
sold for when she sold the alcohol arm.
But Bravo got a portion of that.
Like, she makes them more money. Okay.
But that's also why so many Housewives.
It's like, why are we Hawking like, now we're
Hawking Teresa's workout wear or something on Real Housewives,
(28:00):
no one believes she designed workout wear, but it's
like Bravo is happy to have them have this
platform because they get a cut for it. Got it.
Here's how I know this, because there have been
Bravo celebrities who have refused to give Bravo a
cut and then Braavo cuts them out.
Andy Cohen just right now, people
are not available to interview.
(28:21):
They are not available to endorse.
Like, if you are not giving Bravo a cut,
you do not have access to the assets. Wow. Okay.
So now what do you think of. Right.
So these shows become big, and then
we'll take another break in a bit.
What do you think of what I call the enablers of all
this, the Andy Cohen's that are at the center of this.
Right.
(28:42):
The folks who do the after shows.
Am I an enabler of it? No.
You're a fan.
No, but I'm talking about the engineers. Right.
Like, Andy Cohen.
He reminds me a little bit of
do you watch The Hunger Games?
I know the premise of well, there's Stanley Tucci's character,
(29:02):
the one who says, may the odds be in your
favor, the game show host who's sort of like, I
guess he's not really at the top of the chain.
I think Andy Cohen might actually be more
so at the top of the chain.
But the folks that are essentially making all
of the money, no matter what happens, pushing
the drama and pulling all the things, what
(29:25):
do you think about their role in this?
Are they needed?
Are Andy Cohen's after shows in any way helping
us and part of this, or is this just
more or just them putting themselves in it?
So I think Andy Cohen's are needed. Okay.
I think actually somebody does need
to be like, engineering these things.
Like, is this interesting?
(29:45):
Is this not interesting?
Because there's a million reality shows that we haven't talked
about on this podcast that don't have an Andy Cohen
and because there isn't somebody with some sort of discernment,
like they're not even on the radar. Right. Got it. Okay.
So I think that Andy Cohen, who was an
executive producer and almost became like a reluctant host
(30:06):
at first, at least back whatever, 15 years ago,
I think that there's absolutely a role for somebody
like him with a discernment.
But now there's all these quote unquote watch
parties that they do with some of the
Bravo stars and that I'm not into. Right.
So in some ways, without an Andy
Conan, it's just a bunch of people
(30:26):
from the show sitting around getting drunk. Right.
Without a smart person moving the conversation. Exactly.
What's, like that punchy thing that you
can ask that actually makes it interesting. Got it.
I think you need somebody like
that to actually keep it interesting. Awesome.
All right, Katie Jones, we're going to take
one more break and then come back.
(30:59):
We are back now with Katie Jones, and we're now
going to have a bit of a Face Off.
Okay, I'm ready to go.
I'm here finding favorites Face Off because I think
that Katie and I have different tastes, but I
think a similar passion for whatever we watch.
(31:23):
Again, I don't enjoy watching regular people,
even if it's a biopic biography thing.
I'm interested in it because I'm interested in
the storytelling and less interested in the humans.
And so I'm going to take a couple of biopic type shows
(31:44):
and stories and things that I've liked to watch recently or True
Crime or things like that and put them up against and have
you kind of react and say, what would be the A, what
do you think of it if you watched it?
But also what would be the reality show?
Like anecdote for that antidote for that.
That's interesting. Okay.
For example, a show that I loved every minute of, and
(32:08):
I don't like a single thing in the Shonda land.
I would never want a family member going
to that hospital because if you're lucky, you'll
survive and the doctors will only have sex
on your body in the operating room.
One of my besties is like, oh, there
needs to be a social worker on Grace's.
And if there was a social worker,
(32:29):
we would have a different hospital. But anyway.
Yeah, but inventing Anna, I was
mesmerized every single minute of it. I'm bored. Okay?
I'm bored.
So how far that's like her.
You're boring. You're boring.
You're so basic.
You're just like you're poor.
How many take the bus here.
(32:50):
How many episodes are you into it?
I'm just one.
But I did sleep through the first episode. So awful.
No, but I think if you pick it up
in episode three, you might like it more.
I got to start at the end.
No, just Netflix shows.
I think most Netflix shows get
good in the third episode.
So you almost like the first two.
I slept through the first two episodes, and
I loved every minute that I watched. Sorry.
(33:11):
So here's the thing.
I do believe reality TV has
changed my brain a little bit.
You know how in kids cartoons, the
image changes every 20 seconds and it
actually makes them addicted to the TV?
I feel like reality TV probably
has something similar in the algorithms.
I'm not addicted to TV.
I only watch a few hours every day because in
(33:32):
reality TV, I don't have to go more than ten
minutes, maybe twelve, before there's some sort of conflict, before
something happens, before there's something to watch.
But you're interested in that because
I don't care about their conflict. Maybe that's it.
I need the background and the build up.
45 minutes into the first episode of
(33:53):
Inventing Anna, I'm like, nothing's happened.
Well, nothing has happened.
She hasn't invented Anna yet, so that's why I'm
kind of like, so to me, I'm like, why
am I watching it when nothing is happening? Got it.
I have a thriving nonprofit career.
Like, people need to be fed.
What am I doing here?
If you can't show me something?
So would you rather, though, watch a reality show
(34:14):
about the actual Anna trying to do the things
that she does in the film, which is get
loans and convince people to sign onto her thing
and spend hundreds of thousands of dollars that she
doesn't necessarily have and skip out on checks?
Would you watch that show?
I think I would probably watch the movie.
(34:35):
Like, I watched The Tinder Swindler, which was kind
of like a similar like it was a crazy
dating pyramid scheme situation, but that was like maybe
like an hour and 15 minutes total.
Like, Inventing Anna, I'm in for at
least three and a half hours.
You're going to have to give me something.
But Tinder Swindler is a documentary, right? Yes. Okay.
(34:57):
That's different.
That's back to the real people.
So you seem to like the real people. Okay.
Not the antidote, but if someone.
So you're saying if you're more of the reality
person and you want an amendment and a story,
go watch the Tinder Swindler documentary instead.
That's an excellent comparison.
Okay, so let's see another one that I really loved.
(35:18):
Now this is another one that I really loved. That was.
Wait, was this acted out? Yeah. Okay.
This is one that I thought was
really fascinating because I do, like many
people find cults, pretty fascinating.
So the Waco film that was on
Netflix or it was like four episodes
(35:39):
or something like that, extremely, extremely compelling.
I thought really well done.
I thought I brought in aspects of the story that as
a little kid, I remember the tragedy and I remember the
SNL skit of it, but it's still not 100% true, obviously.
But I really enjoyed the storytelling on that.
(35:59):
If someone wants something like that.
But reality.
Okay, I got one for you.
I believe it's HBO Max.
And I'm blanking on the exact name now, but it
follows a Church in Knoxville, Tennessee, I want to say.
And it actually started by there was this
woman who had a diet book, and she
(36:23):
basically claimed that God made her thin.
And she got to be very
popular promoting this book among churches.
And then she goes and actually starts
her own Church around, like this kind
of ethos, like, God loves thin people.
And if you come to my Church, I'll make you thin.
Is it the way down?
God greeting the callin, Gwen Shamblen. Yes.
(36:48):
Chilling. True.
Fascinating.
So that would be my kind of real person
rather than watching the drama version of it. Correct.
This was like, we need to call a
babysitter because I cannot leave the TV.
Somebody feed the children.
(37:09):
Okay, so here's one.
This is definitely on the tragic side.
This is on the tragic side, and I
think I still recommend you watch it.
It is probably the best mini. I think it might be the
best mini series I've ever seen. Wow.
It's one of the best things I've seen in a long time.
And that was Dopesick on Hulu.
(37:30):
That was Michael Keaton and Diva Caitlin.
Diva Rosario Dawson.
That one similar to the Wake Up.
I think what I really like, and maybe this is
where you can help me help the reality angles.
I like learning more about something.
When I watch the biopic and it just
(37:51):
hits the origin story and the beats that
everybody knows, it's kind of dull.
I like to see those things, but I'd rather see
angles of those things that I don't know about. I see.
I think Bohemian Rhapsody is a great movie because it
has a little bit of intro, but really, it's giving
(38:12):
you more angles on things that I know happened. Right.
And so on.
Dopesick we all know and hear about the opioid crisis?
But I can't say I knew much about the inner
world of the Sacklers or how it really affects from
beginning to end in a lot of different ways, different
families, and the way they were able to tease out
(38:36):
all these different threads I just found so fascinating.
And the acting is off the charts.
The writing is off the charts.
So again, that one's pretty tragic.
I got a tragic one for you. Okay.
I got one.
And again, I don't dabble too much in the tragic.
So this is like I've seen it because somebody else
was watching it, and then I would physically feel ill.
(38:59):
But I want to say, is it Lifetime?
Is it A and E?
The two that come to
mind are intervention and Hoarders.
Hoarders, I can't watch that because you're sitting in my
office right now and you're like, oh, my God.
And especially my Hoarding is only
allowed in one part of it.
You know how I like a hospital
corner, but that's when that is sad.
(39:22):
That is tragic.
That is hard.
These are isolated people for any number of
reasons, and that is a tough watch.
So in that case, in the Dopesa case, we're
talking about this sort of societal issue that may
have been engineered by terrible people in Hoarders.
(39:43):
It sounds like it's more personally, it's
more of like a personal issue. Right.
Well, I would argue that there's probably constraints of
society that have driven people to be hoarders.
Like, it's the same structural issues.
I mean, the same thing.
Intervention is literally about people who still
have addiction issues in the same way. Dopesick is.
Right. Got it.
(40:03):
But I mean, it's the same systematic lack of support
for people with mental health issues or addiction issues that
just does not exist in the United States.
That drives people.
Like, we constantly talk about at work.
We're working on behalf of the
42 million people experiencing hunger.
42 million people aren't doing it wrong.
(40:25):
Like, there are systems in place that make this.
So I think that in the same way, like intervention
and horror kind of captures a piece of it.
See, you're always so wise.
Always so wise.
It's really powerful. Okay.
So I'm trying to think of more of,
like a funny, almost surreal real story.
(40:49):
I think of some of these biographies
that are almost like fictitious hit, like
they're real, but they're also fictitious.
I'm thinking of this is kind of a funny one.
Howard Stern's Private Parts. Okay.
Or there's this new Weird Al one being made where
Daniel Radcliffe is going to play Weird All Yankees.
That's fascinating.
And I'm sure they are going to be like Private Parts.
(41:11):
It might have some moments in it that
are real, but it's going to have a
lot of surreal kind of wackiness about this.
Is there a reality? I got one. Wow.
You know, I do already, and I don't know this one
as well, but I've heard wonderful things about Drag Race.
Okay.
But in the sense, like, it follows.
I hear that as an inspiring, awesome show.
(41:32):
Yes, absolutely. That's RuPaul's show. Correct. Okay.
And they actually launched one in Canada.
There's a Canadian version with Brad
Goreski, who was also on Bravo.
But again, crossover cool.
But again, it follows the human.
There's also, like this performative piece of it.
All right, cool. Yeah. Dabble in that. Okay. All right.
(41:53):
Well, that is the best thing on anyone's
toes I've pretty much ever seen an interview
Katie, I want to now throw.
So you alluded that I know a little bit
about reality shows, as I always like to do
when I'm guessing on Five and Favorites.
I like to bring in a little flavor
of Friday Night Movie, which is my regular
(42:13):
podcast, if the listeners want to hear it.
On Friday Night Movie, we play
our signature game by Rent May. Okay.
Where you get three things and you have to assign each
one of those the Buy the Rent or the May, the
by being the most valuable, the Rent being the second, literally
writing it down because I need to concentrate.
And then the met is actually whatever
(42:34):
you want it to be because sometimes
I throw things other people don't know. Okay. Okay.
So we're just going to play a couple of
rounds of Buy Rent around the reality shows that
I actually have either like or have some kind
of connection to on sort of a deeper where
I could actually have a conversation about these things.
Even though I don't know what a vendor pump is.
(42:55):
Actually, I still don't know what a vendor pump is.
Okay.
I still can't figure it out. Okay.
I'm not sure if I'd recommend it to you these days, but.
Okay. Okay, cool.
So no Vanderpumps and I don't like the
ones with the people with like 38 kids,
like the John and Kate situation.
Yeah, I feel like that situation unraveled. Right. Yeah.
That went bad.
They were pioneers. Okay. Yeah.
(43:17):
All right.
So I have liked, again, a little
bit more on the Zany side.
And in the VH One early days when their reality TV
was connected somewhat to the themes of what that channel is
supposed to be, which in my view was like the History
Channel of Music or the Anne of Music.
(43:38):
But now, like, Annie is garbage, too.
Okay, so The Surreal Life, which had six or
seven good seasons until the Omarosa flavor, flavor.
Bridget.
I think that was like the peak season.
That season was really special.
(43:59):
So I would start there.
I would start with The Surreal Life. Okay.
Flavor of Love, which was flavor. Flavor. Oh, yeah.
And then I guess it's more of a dating show.
Also, which was the one with Brett?
Is it Brett Michaels or Brett Michael's? Rock of Love.
(44:21):
Yes. Rock of Love.
Every rose has its thorn of love.
I'm actually physically twitching.
Yeah, but then there was.
Wasn't there one with Tila tequila, also, that was like
a shot of Love and Tequila or something like that.
Wasn't Cardi B on one of the V.
H one shows and she launched off of.
(44:41):
I don't know.
We're going to consult while you
answer my question about Surreal Life. Flavor of Love.
Because I'll rent. Excuse me?
I'll buy whatever Cardi B.
Okay, I will buy that.
But what are your memories of The Surreal Life?
Because I would say that to me is
probably my all time favorite because that show
is ultimately very humanizing for characters that like
(45:04):
Vanilla Ice, and I found it deeply tragic. Really?
It was really sad.
So again, I remember the happiest parts of that.
(45:29):
What's the lowest one? Me.
Well, it can be if you want it
to be, because then that's what I'm doing.
Okay, so Cardi B was on the television
series Love and Hip Hop New York. Okay.
Which was a VH One show.
Yeah, but that one actually. Bye bye. Bye.
I know, but that wasn't on the
list because I'd never heard of.
(45:49):
I can add to the list. Okay. All right, fair enough.
So bye bye bye, Cardi B. Bye.
Okay, so you're just buying Cardi B?
Yeah, that's a Lily move that's my sister ads are open.
All right.
Surreal Life you find tragic.
I do, but I mean, at least I did consume
it, so that would have to probably be my rent. Okay.
And then the ones with the word love in the title.
Flavor of Love. Rock of Love. Yeah. Trash.
(46:11):
And what makes those trash because
of, like, Michaels is trash. Okay.
Like the inherent kind of misogyny or that
it's just like a trashy dating show again,
for me, I don't like the tragic stuff.
So the desperation for Brett Michael to basically need
(46:33):
to go on a show to make money.
I thought you meant, like, the women
trying to get on his tour bus.
Well, that I think is sad. Right?
Like, you think you're going to
find connection with Brett Michaels.
What are we doing?
What are they I mean, I think
they're there for it to get famous.
But isn't that sad?
Like the personal fulfillment that they're seeking is
(46:55):
to be on a show with Brett Michaels? Wow.
Really dragging Brett Michael.
I just took a turn.
Now what about did you ever watch any of the parodies?
Because I will say I love the
parodies Burning Love, which featured Ken Marino.
(47:16):
I feel like I need to watch a few minutes of this.
It had Ken Marino and June.
Diane and Rayfield were sort of
two of the most memorable ones.
But also Kristen Bell did a cameo.
Janet Barney was on it. Okay.
Never heard of it.
Okay, so there's Burning Love and there's season one.
I haven't seen season two, but season two brings
(47:38):
back one of the women and it flips it.
Then there's Bajillion Dollar Properties, which was
with Paul F, Tompkins and Tony Newsome.
And that to me, is truly one
of the funniest things I've ever seen.
And that's the whole real estate thing. Yeah.
I think I might have seen something of that.
And then what about The Real Housewives of Orlando?
(48:00):
Oh, what's great about each of the Hot Wives.
The Hot Wives of Orlando. Yes.
Casey Wilson, Daniel Schneider.
What's great about each one of these is that all
of them could also they're, like just a little bit
off from reality, but close enough that they are. Yeah.
So I will buy anything Casey Wilson,
(48:21):
Danielle Schneider, do again, I recommend their
podcast, The Bitch Session, where they break
down episodes of Bravo and Housewives.
So bye, bye, bye, the Hot
Wives, Real Housewives of Orlando.
Again, because I've dabbled in Bajillion
Dollar Properties or whatever it's called.
That would probably have to be my rent.
And I've never heard of your other one.
(48:42):
I already forgot which one. Burning Love. Oh, no.
Burning Love.
After this, we're going to watch a few minutes of
it, and I think you're going to find it.
I do like June, Diane, Rayfield. I do.
It's considered a very high quality comedy takedown.
We haven't agreed this entire podcast.
(49:02):
So I am interested to watch this with you now.
Katie Jones, the Wise Katie Jones, bringing us so
much incredible insight into the world of reality TV
as we wrap up this edition of Finding Favorites.
Do you have anything you want people to
follow you on or recommend or recommend?
(49:23):
Because I know you're a little mysterious in the
social media, I'm pretty sure you can only get
to you by following your husband you can find
me so I'll recommend Friday night movie.
I'll recommend thank you pancake for
table follow there for great content.
Thank you yes.
So as Katie mentioned that is where you can
(49:46):
find me on a weekly basis Friday night movie
with my sister, sometimes my wife as well.
You can also follow me at
pancake and the number four table.
Thank you as always to Leah Jones for sharing her
microphone with me and some of my favorite people and
to all of the finding favorite listeners who are being
supportive of the show and Leah while she makes her
(50:09):
recovery wishing you always a speedy and full recovery sending
lots of love and thanks for listening and I publicly
apologize to Brad Michaels.
Thank you for listening to
finding favorites with Leah Jones.
Please make sure to subscribe and drop
us a five star review on itunes.
(50:29):
Now go out and enjoy your favorite things.
Hi, I'm Katie Jones, and I love reality TV.
Welcome to the Finding Favorites podcast, where we
explore your favorite things without using an algorithm.
Here's your host, Leah Jones.
Welcome to another episode of
Finding Favorites with Leah Jones.
This is Shy returning again, gratefully as a guest host
(00:24):
for Liam always thankful that Leah will let me pop
in and bring some of my favorite people.
I feel like this is a whole subset of
I get to interview favorite people or bucket list
favorite people for a show about favorites where they
get to talk about their favorites.
And today is no exception.
We are going to interview Katie Jones.
(00:47):
No relation to Leah Jones.
Katie Jones, a dear friend of mine, a
leader in the world of nonprofit organizations, someone
who's really making a difference in the world.
And what I wanted to talk to
her about, of course, was reality TV.
(01:07):
Of course, because Katie is someone
I know who loves reality TV.
And I'll say this, I know lots
of people who love reality TV.
And there is not a subject I'm less interested
in, which is what makes this conversation even better,
because I have talked to Katie about reality TV.
And I walk away from it, still not ever
(01:30):
wanting to watch it, but wanting to watch Katie
talk and speak about it because the significance that
she brings to these different threads and how she
can explain why each one matters is one of
the most compelling things I've ever heard.
So I'm really thrilled that I get to
share this with Leah and her audience. Katie, welcome.
(01:52):
Thanks for doing this.
Thank you for having me.
I'm delighted to be here.
I am so excited because you're one
of the smartest people I know.
You're someone that I go to for advice.
Actually, everyone in my family,
big life changes coming.
Katy lives across the street from us.
We're like I need to block out some
time to go for a walk with Katie.
That is a big thing in our world,
(02:13):
and I am delighted to do so.
You're such a wise person.
And so I want to know how
someone who's so wise also has room.
I mean, look, I have room for
stuff in my brain that I shouldn't.
Someone who's so wise.
But what is compelling to you about
just the world of reality TV overall?
(02:34):
Well, it's interesting you say that, because I
actually think the thing that interests me about
my nonprofit work is the exact same thing
that interests me about reality TV.
And that's that I'm genuinely curious about things.
I'm curious about people.
I'm curious about the decisions they make.
I'm curious about how they live.
I'm curious about the assumptions that they make.
(02:57):
And that is what makes my work in the
nonprofit world really interesting because so many different stakeholders
have so many different what I would call mental
models about the way things work.
And that is definitely true.
On reality TV, just like the premise of
some of these of like, of course, whatever.
This thing is, like the acceptable thing.
And that's crazy to me.
(03:17):
I'm still curious about that.
So I think that's actually what kind
of threads together in my life is,
like my infinite curiosity about things.
This is like a model, I think, for how people
should just be living where they talk about approaching the
world with curiosity because you never cease to amaze me.
All right.
Reality TV.
(03:37):
How did you discover?
Is this something like my sister Becky, she
I don't think she watched reality TV.
She kind of looked down on it.
And then when she got pregnant and was home with
her first kid, suddenly she knew all about it.
Or is this something more formative, like
going back to the early, early days?
So it's interesting you say that.
(03:58):
So before I begin, I want to give a shout out
to Kathleen McMahon and Dana Seltzer, who helped me prepare for
this interview because I had one set of answers.
And then as I thought about it more
and talked about it with them, they were
like, no, don't you remember this show?
And I was like, oh, my goodness.
So you consulted.
I know of these people.
I prepped for this interview.
(04:18):
Like, I'm taking this seriously.
This is amazing.
If I could talk about my work to the extent I could
talk about reality TV, I would be in a far better spot.
This is amazing.
These are wonderful, amazing people.
But I love that they were now part of this decision.
Absolutely 100% shout out to Kathleen and Dana.
That's amazing. Okay.
(04:39):
So how it got started, I would obviously
say and I'm sure many people who are
listening will remember Real World New York, right?
That is ground zero.
Before reality TV was a reality TV thing.
I certainly remember that.
And I remember watching that because that
to me, it was prereality TV. Exactly.
(04:59):
There wasn't a genre.
And I remember flipping on much music in
Canada, which is, I think, where it re
aired, and they were all sitting in a
circle, and there were these different types of
people with different backgrounds, and there were conflicts.
Now going up in a Jewish day school in Montreal,
there were people from different backgrounds in my school, but
(05:21):
not any of the folks that you saw to the
extent that you might see to this day, even though
I get I'm an avowed non watcher of the show.
I remember so much about that first season because I feel
like it did change the way people looked at TV.
Oh, absolutely.
And again, I don't know if you know, but
now they're actually bringing back some of the real
(05:43):
worlds again on MTV, like 30 years later and
actually putting them in the same house.
So it was like a four or five part series not
that long ago where they brought back all of the cast
of New York, and they stayed for a week. Wow.
In the loft, even Eric Meese.
Well, okay, here's spoiler.
So you might want to stop if you haven't seen
(06:04):
this, but they were all excited to get together.
And then Eric got coveted, and so
he actually couldn't go to the loft.
And so part of what they did was
they actually ventured out as a group, and
we're talking to him from his balcony.
And he was kind of like podcast in, if
you will, for some of the group conversations.
He was intended to be there,
(06:24):
but again, reality, he got coveted.
He was quarantined.
He couldn't even do the experience.
And they brought back La
with Tammy from Basketball Wives.
We'll get to Basketball Wives.
That's a crossover.
And now they're also bringing back New Orleans. Okay.
Wow.
Okay, so this is like teenage years, then reality TV.
(06:46):
So that's kind of where it started.
But if I was going to go deep and
shout out to Dana for helping me with this,
I actually think my first foray, like, seriously into
reality television was what not to Wear?
When was that that aired for, like, 15 years, really?
But what was so interesting to me was, again, like,
(07:07):
I was just interested in people and how they got
to present themselves in a certain way and their stories
that they told themselves that Stacey and Clinton and what
not to Wear would really help them unpack about.
Like, why are you so tired?
Why do you think this makes you look sexy or good?
And can we give you another option?
(07:29):
And it's not to say what you're doing now is
bad, but let's see if you can be better.
And what that would unpack when they would, like, not
only get new clothes, but get new hair and makeup.
And you would see these people saying, I
never thought I was beautiful before, and now
I think I'm beautiful, and it would really
transform the way they held themselves.
And that was also very satisfying within
(07:50):
45 minutes, like, start to finish.
Was that a serial show?
Because one thing I want to touch on is that
I wasn't into the ones that were like a serial.
Like, I had to follow this group of people
around because I'm not that interested in real people.
I can't tell you how many hours of Eliminate
and what's the limited fifth wheel I watched.
(08:12):
Do I have to start watching these now?
These are old, but I would love to show
you these were on just you and me.
We watched Elimidate episodes
like Mystery Science Theater.
That is interesting.
So Eliminate was in the wake.
It was in the early 2000s or maybe late night.
(08:33):
I was in College, and I think it was on back
when Spike TV still existed or before Spike TV or Spike
TV when it was like TNN or something, whatever it was.
And it was like the simplest premise, a man or woman
starts the half hour episode with three people on a date.
(08:54):
And at each commercial, one of them is
eliminated, usually right before the third commercial.
There's a hot tub scene where
people are taking off their tops.
But it's a regular TV, so it was
by today's standards, this is probably like G
rated Sesame Street kind of show.
I really liked that one.
But the one that I also thought
(09:16):
was awesome, like a variation of that.
And Aisha Tyler hosted it.
So it was funnier.
It was a little bit funnier.
That one was there were five people on a date,
three from one gender and two from the other.
Again, this is like very much
that era straight people, right? Yeah.
(09:37):
The ultimate and heteronormative.
I think these shows would be much more interesting.
Now, again, I don't exactly remember how it works, but there
would be two people on a double date, and then they
throw in a fifth wheel who would try to steal someone,
and then somehow there'd be two people at the end.
I don't know what people want in this.
Like, maybe they got, like, dinner paid
(09:58):
for at, like, an Olive Garden.
And then there was one more variation
where they sent people on a cruise.
It was called, like, Ship Below or Ship.
In my mind, Chris Hardwick posted it,
but I don't think he did that's.
Like my worst nightmare.
Like, you're trapped on a ship with people. Oh, my gosh.
Yeah.
And there's always a part where they say they're going to bed,
(10:24):
and then one of them sneaks out and goes to the dance
club on the ship and it's always the same ship.
It's really weird.
And then the other time I would say I was attracted to
reality TV was I watched tell me if you watched this.
Who Wants to Marry a Millionaire?
(10:44):
J Thomas hosted the show.
Darva Conger was the winner.
And she married that guy.
And they were divorced. Yes.
Because he was abusive. Right.
He turned out to not be a nice guy.
So it's really good that you brought
this up, because that's an important distinction.
I do think it's important for me to make in my
own reality choices is I don't like watching the ones that
(11:06):
are tragic and Who Wants to Marry a Millionaire?
The loneliness that is at the core of
that is just too tragic for me.
Like 90 Day Fiance.
I can't do it.
It's too sad. Okay.
90 Day Fiance is like people who it is exactly
what it sounds like, somebody who wants a visa.
(11:27):
They make a show about that.
It is in, like, its 20th season.
It's probably among TLC's top rated now.
They even have spin offs of, like, before
the 90 Day and after the 90 day.
What exactly are we learning from the Learning Channel?
How to break immigration laws.
Probably how to monetize misery. Okay.
It's probably the best thing that you can. Okay.
(11:48):
I'm with you there.
Misery is not my idea.
I'm not there for those types of shows.
It's just too sad.
I will recommend to you, though, just in the
new genre, Love Is Blind, I hear a lot
of great stuff about that, probably largely from me.
And I can't stop talking.
Well, and I want to say our regular host, Leah Jones
(12:08):
of this show is a huge fan of Love This Blind. Yes.
So highly.
We should talk about that later.
But that is one that, as I understand it,
takes a little bit of the superficiality out of
it for a second component of it. Correct.
So what happens is two people start
dating, but they never see each other.
They're in something they call pods, and you talk in
(12:30):
a microphone, basically on either side of a wall, and
you basically determine if you share the same values, if
you share the same goals, and then if you do,
then you kind of move on to the next round.
Is it distorted voices?
Like, do they sound like The Scream?
Okay, so it's their actual voice.
It is their actual voices.
And the idea is that you can actually
(12:51):
propose to a person without ever seeing them.
The goal of this is marriage.
The goal of this is marriage.
The finale is do they say yes at the altar?
And it actually follows them from the pods where some
of them get engaged to their honeymoons, quote, unquote or
engagement moons in Mexico for a couple of days, then
(13:11):
they move to their home city, move in together.
It all takes place over like six to eight weeks.
And it's fascinating.
But the whole premise is, is love really blind?
Like, is love and your kind of connection around
values and goals enough to carry you through?
And some people get married and some people don't.
(13:32):
But it's so interesting.
Again, season one of Love Is Blinded.
This better than season two.
But when the couple sit down and talk about
money, that's the most fascinating thing to me.
That's a big value conversation. Right.
And but like, your mental models
about what you, quote, unquote need.
I mean, that's a really big deal.
(13:53):
And to see people kind of juggle that with
somebody they're engaged to, it's fascinating to me.
So before we take our first break, which will be
in a moment, so here I feel like you're maybe
hitting on something that aside from your curiosity and the
fact that you feel like you've learned stuff from this,
(14:14):
do you think then that there are actual relationship lessons
that people can get from some of these shows?
Because I will say, like Queer Eye,
which I classify as reality TV. Yes.
Because it follows that sort of makeover thing.
My kids and wife watch that show
nonstop, and I love almost no.
(14:34):
Pretty much everything my kids have learned from
that show to me has been like a
positive learning opportunity because of the values and
sort of the way that show tracks.
I'm not saying all of these shows are for kids.
Do you think that self aware enough people can
(14:55):
actually learn about relationships and what to do and
what not to do from some of these things?
Or is it purely mindless entertainment?
I think that's a good question for
me to ponder after the break. Okay. All right.
Cliff anger people.
We'll be back in a moment.
(15:21):
We are back with Katie Jones.
We're going to get to the question about
what people can learn in a moment.
But I also want to talk about that this episode
could have been entirely just instead of about reality TV.
It could have just been about diet root beer
because Katie and I both love diet root beer.
Katie brought me well, she brought both of us each, but
she brought me my own very cold diet root beer, which
(15:43):
is a little bit of a tradition between us.
We go to each other's house and bring rodeo beer.
I'm going to open mine right now by
the microphone because what's better sound is that?
Yeah.
All right, I got you, Shai. All right.
So I took a swig of my diet roopier.
Katie, are there learning opportunities in these
(16:04):
shows or do you have to be,
like, extra evolved to learn from them? Yeah.
I don't think any self evolved person would
try to find meaning in these shows. Okay.
So it's funny because I was actually thinking about
this as I prepared for this podcast is in
reality TV, there's kind of like a sorting. Right.
Like in the sense of there's Bachelor
Nation people and there's Real Housewives people.
(16:25):
And so even, like, before you get into
the genre, I think there's people almost like
you or me where they're like reality TV. No, thank you.
Or reality TV.
Like, yes, please. Got it. Okay.
And so I don't think any
self aware person bold statement.
I don't think any self aware person would be
like, now I understand how to talk with my
spouse about money because I watched Love Is Lie.
(16:45):
I don't think anyone saying that.
I get it.
They may pick up some tips or point or
point to their spouse and say, you do that,
but that's not what they're going into.
This the most recent one, one of the guys just said
to his, quote unquote fiance, I don't believe in 401 KS.
(17:06):
And I was like, how do you not believe in them?
Like they exist.
Like what?
How can they be fiction? Right? Exactly.
It's like I don't believe there's
a microphone in front of me. Like, what? Got it. Okay.
So I don't think you're taking much lessons.
All right, so you talked about Bachelor Nation.
You talked about Real House wise.
Let's sketch out the different types we've alluded
(17:28):
to a few different in my mind, I
have like these there are like makeover shows,
there's competition shows, there's relationship shows.
But that, to me, seems almost
like a very pedestrian division.
I feel like you could maybe give us a
little bit more in the category world here. Sure.
I can try. Okay.
(17:49):
Because I will say this if you
can also maybe recommend because finding favorites.
The theme of finding favorites is
essentially finding recommendations without an algorithm.
You're listening to somebody
who's passionate about something.
So maybe even you could sprinkle in saying,
if you like X, you'll like this kind,
because they seem to scratch different emotional areas.
(18:13):
So I would actually categorize Queer Eye almost
the same way I would categorize like a
Project Runway or a Top Chef.
It is about a craft.
It is about a talent.
Like Bobby on Queer Eye knows interior design. Right.
And you can probably take something from his
adhesive wallpaper or whatever and apply it.
(18:35):
But it's like the people are on that
show because they have a real talent.
Like it's an actual craft versus
something like the Real Housewives franchise.
Really, the talent those women have
as being completely unapologetic for anything.
(18:56):
If you are bombastic and unapologetic, you
would qualify and enjoy Real Housewives.
What I would actually recommend, if you are
a person who's, again, like, curious about different
friendships, I always recommend to everyone.
I always recommend to everyone, basketball wise.
(19:19):
Early seasons of Basketball Wives.
This follows Shaquille O'Neill's ex wife Shoddy,
and her friendships with various women who
are married to basketball stars.
Now tie back to Realworld La, where Tammy
was also married to Kenny Anderson, who played,
(19:41):
I think, for the Knicks or the Nets.
And so she makes an
appearance back on Basketball Lives.
And these are women who have helped each other raise
children because the kids, their husbands were always on the
road, and they have known each other for decades.
And that is like real, deep, interesting friendship.
And now they're kind of thrust
(20:02):
into the reality TV realm.
They have what I would consider, like,
true friendship, conversations about race, about class.
Oh, wow. Okay.
So it's not simply just people fighting over
who got invited to the charity fundraiser.
Contrary to what, the only Real Housewives I ever really
(20:25):
watched in any detail was the Bethany Jill Zarin one.
And that seemed all people did. Sure.
Well, I would say Basketball Wives again.
I'm going out on a limb here. Bold statement.
I think that's far more substantive. Okay.
I mean, it was the first time I
ever heard colorism talked about on reality TV. Wow.
Okay, so there you go.
(20:46):
So rather than classifying things as competition and wives in
the title, it seems like you're drawing the thread more
around what the people bring to the table.
Top Chef and Queer Eye.
I'm hearing this is about talent
and craft and experts and Basketball
(21:07):
Wives is about friendship and relationship.
I would almost see it more like a substantive spectrum.
Like, I would consider like Top
Chef, Queer Eye, Project Runway.
Those are substantive shows.
And then I would kind of move up
the spectrum to like a Basketball Wives.
And then I would actually probably put next to
that sister Wives TLC that's following a polygamist family.
(21:32):
Okay.
And then probably on the other end of the
spectrum, I would put a lot of other Bravo
shows, such as some of the Real Housewives and
like a summer house, Winterhouse situation.
There's a summer house and Winterhouse. Oh, my gosh.
Yes, it's great. Okay.
What's down on the bottom on the far
(21:56):
end of no substance because 98 and fiance
sounds tragic, but maybe isn't no substance.
What is no substance?
No substance.
I would actually say again, and there's going
to be a variation within Real Housewives franchises.
But I would say on the real end of no substance.
And this is going to be controversial because I'm going
(22:16):
to say something not so nice about my home state.
But Real Housewives of New Jersey, no substance.
That is just like the people are dense
and they are there because they have understood
how to make a reality TV show.
And it has become so contrived that
I find it hard to watch.
(22:37):
And if I find it hard
to watch, like that says something.
Speaking of New Jersey, another angle that was
a huge deal was the Jersey Shore.
Oh, yes, absolutely.
So on one hand, I love the Jersey Shore.
Being born in Philly and vacationing
(22:58):
in the Jersey Shore every summer.
I used to go to Seaside.
I didn't go to Seaside, but it's near Wildwood, right?
No, I think Wildwood is south.
They don't go to Wildwood.
It is a dump.
When my mom when I told her I was going
to Seaside after prom, like the look on her face.
But I didn't know any different until I went
(23:18):
someplace like beautiful, like Spring Lake, and I was
like, EW, my mom let me go to Seaside.
So Jersey Shore takes place in Seaside.
Anyway, I love the Jersey.
Not necessarily the Jersey Shore that's in
the show, but we've been to so
many different places over the years.
I love it so much.
So when it became popular, I did enjoy that
(23:39):
the Jersey store was getting a moment in the
sun, but it didn't seem the wrong reason.
But I want to give those original. Okay.
Guests never watched an episode of the show.
Really more than a few seconds.
But I know who Cookie is, who Jaywow
is, who Polly Situation, the sitch situation.
(24:03):
No.
But then there was like the sort of nice
kind of dumb one who had the girlfriend, Ronnie. Ronnie.
That's it.
And then she was like Samantha or Sammy sweetheart.
Yeah. Yeah.
She has not continued to roll, but they are all still
on TV, on MTV, if you want to dip it. Really?
Oh, yes, they do.
Family vacation stations now, quote, unquote together.
Yeah.
And they go to the Poconos.
(24:25):
I go to all these places.
Can you imagine the Jersey Shore people at the Poconos?
You can, because they filmed it.
So these are like they're in their 40s now.
Definitely, like strong 30s.
So what do you think makes a reality star like a
Snookie and a Polly in a situation that are still kind
(24:47):
of driving or even an Eric niece who went on to
be a VJ versus now a spiritual healer?
Okay, that's better than he's selling NFT.
What do you think makes them or a Bethany, right.
That's her name. Bethany Frankel. Yes.
What do you think makes certain folks
truly become a brand beyond their show?
(25:10):
Is it talent?
Is it smart?
Is it just flashing a pan?
Because Snooki can't still be working if she is
kind of the character she simply played on TV? Sure.
I think personally I would venture to
say it's authenticity, which is what I
think actually really resonated with people.
(25:31):
I remember because Jersey Shore came out
right around the 2008 2009 recession.
And I remember reading a piece in like the
Washington Post or the Slate or something like that.
And it basically said, we all got so fancy
these last couple of years before the recession.
The Jersey Shore reminds us of the people we hung
(25:52):
out with before we decided we were fancy, interesting.
And so I think there is something, again, that
crew was unapologetic about who they are and what
they believed and what they wanted to do.
And I think there's something when they're
truly authentic about it, they mean it.
I think that's something really compelling.
(26:13):
I think especially now with so much
social media and so much seems so
inauthentic when you actually get those Nuggets.
I think that's something.
And like Bethany's drive that was fundamental to her
her as an entrepreneur, people connected to that?
I think.
So why do you think that she, let's say out did
(26:35):
I guess her and Jill Zarin had the falling out?
They did.
You're hanging in there for a person who doesn't watch
reality TV, but I feel like some of this stuff
is dated, but things like a Bachelor, I couldn't tell.
I think one of the guys from the New York
Giants was a Bachelor once, and that's all I know.
Right.
I'm not a Bachelor person.
I'm a real Housewives person.
(26:57):
So Bethany and Jill have this falling out.
Clearly, the Bravo brand sides with Bethany because Jill maybe
gets, as I understand it, like a guest spot once
in a while just so they can humiliate her or
the Countess can punch her or uninvited her to something
because there's a Countess, there is a Duchess, whatever.
What do you think makes the company say,
(27:18):
okay, we're putting our money behind Bethany?
Is it ratings? No.
Bravo gets a cut if you promote a product on the show.
Part of your agreement is that you agree
to give Bravo a portion of your proceeds
and Bethany has like a multimillion dollar company.
(27:40):
Got it.
So, I mean, I forget what skinny girl
sold for when she sold the alcohol arm.
But Bravo got a portion of that.
Like, she makes them more money. Okay.
But that's also why so many Housewives.
It's like, why are we Hawking like, now we're
Hawking Teresa's workout wear or something on Real Housewives,
(28:00):
no one believes she designed workout wear, but it's
like Bravo is happy to have them have this
platform because they get a cut for it. Got it.
Here's how I know this, because there have been
Bravo celebrities who have refused to give Bravo a
cut and then Braavo cuts them out.
Andy Cohen just right now, people
are not available to interview.
(28:21):
They are not available to endorse.
Like, if you are not giving Bravo a cut,
you do not have access to the assets. Wow. Okay.
So now what do you think of. Right.
So these shows become big, and then
we'll take another break in a bit.
What do you think of what I call the enablers of all
this, the Andy Cohen's that are at the center of this.
Right.
(28:42):
The folks who do the after shows.
Am I an enabler of it? No.
You're a fan.
No, but I'm talking about the engineers. Right.
Like, Andy Cohen.
He reminds me a little bit of
do you watch The Hunger Games?
I know the premise of well, there's Stanley Tucci's character,
(29:02):
the one who says, may the odds be in your
favor, the game show host who's sort of like, I
guess he's not really at the top of the chain.
I think Andy Cohen might actually be more
so at the top of the chain.
But the folks that are essentially making all
of the money, no matter what happens, pushing
the drama and pulling all the things, what
(29:25):
do you think about their role in this?
Are they needed?
Are Andy Cohen's after shows in any way helping
us and part of this, or is this just
more or just them putting themselves in it?
So I think Andy Cohen's are needed. Okay.
I think actually somebody does need
to be like, engineering these things.
Like, is this interesting?
(29:45):
Is this not interesting?
Because there's a million reality shows that we haven't talked
about on this podcast that don't have an Andy Cohen
and because there isn't somebody with some sort of discernment,
like they're not even on the radar. Right. Got it. Okay.
So I think that Andy Cohen, who was an
executive producer and almost became like a reluctant host
(30:06):
at first, at least back whatever, 15 years ago,
I think that there's absolutely a role for somebody
like him with a discernment.
But now there's all these quote unquote watch
parties that they do with some of the
Bravo stars and that I'm not into. Right.
So in some ways, without an Andy
Conan, it's just a bunch of people
(30:26):
from the show sitting around getting drunk. Right.
Without a smart person moving the conversation. Exactly.
What's, like that punchy thing that you
can ask that actually makes it interesting. Got it.
I think you need somebody like
that to actually keep it interesting. Awesome.
All right, Katie Jones, we're going to take
one more break and then come back.
(30:59):
We are back now with Katie Jones, and we're now
going to have a bit of a Face Off.
Okay, I'm ready to go.
I'm here finding favorites Face Off because I think
that Katie and I have different tastes, but I
think a similar passion for whatever we watch.
(31:23):
Again, I don't enjoy watching regular people,
even if it's a biopic biography thing.
I'm interested in it because I'm interested in
the storytelling and less interested in the humans.
And so I'm going to take a couple of biopic type shows
(31:44):
and stories and things that I've liked to watch recently or True
Crime or things like that and put them up against and have
you kind of react and say, what would be the A, what
do you think of it if you watched it?
But also what would be the reality show?
Like anecdote for that antidote for that.
That's interesting. Okay.
For example, a show that I loved every minute of, and
(32:08):
I don't like a single thing in the Shonda land.
I would never want a family member going
to that hospital because if you're lucky, you'll
survive and the doctors will only have sex
on your body in the operating room.
One of my besties is like, oh, there
needs to be a social worker on Grace's.
And if there was a social worker,
(32:29):
we would have a different hospital. But anyway.
Yeah, but inventing Anna, I was
mesmerized every single minute of it. I'm bored. Okay?
I'm bored.
So how far that's like her.
You're boring. You're boring.
You're so basic.
You're just like you're poor.
How many take the bus here.
(32:50):
How many episodes are you into it?
I'm just one.
But I did sleep through the first episode. So awful.
No, but I think if you pick it up
in episode three, you might like it more.
I got to start at the end.
No, just Netflix shows.
I think most Netflix shows get
good in the third episode.
So you almost like the first two.
I slept through the first two episodes, and
I loved every minute that I watched. Sorry.
(33:11):
So here's the thing.
I do believe reality TV has
changed my brain a little bit.
You know how in kids cartoons, the
image changes every 20 seconds and it
actually makes them addicted to the TV?
I feel like reality TV probably
has something similar in the algorithms.
I'm not addicted to TV.
I only watch a few hours every day because in
(33:32):
reality TV, I don't have to go more than ten
minutes, maybe twelve, before there's some sort of conflict, before
something happens, before there's something to watch.
But you're interested in that because
I don't care about their conflict. Maybe that's it.
I need the background and the build up.
45 minutes into the first episode of
(33:53):
Inventing Anna, I'm like, nothing's happened.
Well, nothing has happened.
She hasn't invented Anna yet, so that's why I'm
kind of like, so to me, I'm like, why
am I watching it when nothing is happening? Got it.
I have a thriving nonprofit career.
Like, people need to be fed.
What am I doing here?
If you can't show me something?
So would you rather, though, watch a reality show
(34:14):
about the actual Anna trying to do the things
that she does in the film, which is get
loans and convince people to sign onto her thing
and spend hundreds of thousands of dollars that she
doesn't necessarily have and skip out on checks?
Would you watch that show?
I think I would probably watch the movie.
(34:35):
Like, I watched The Tinder Swindler, which was kind
of like a similar like it was a crazy
dating pyramid scheme situation, but that was like maybe
like an hour and 15 minutes total.
Like, Inventing Anna, I'm in for at
least three and a half hours.
You're going to have to give me something.
But Tinder Swindler is a documentary, right? Yes. Okay.
(34:57):
That's different.
That's back to the real people.
So you seem to like the real people. Okay.
Not the antidote, but if someone.
So you're saying if you're more of the reality
person and you want an amendment and a story,
go watch the Tinder Swindler documentary instead.
That's an excellent comparison.
Okay, so let's see another one that I really loved.
(35:18):
Now this is another one that I really loved. That was.
Wait, was this acted out? Yeah. Okay.
This is one that I thought was
really fascinating because I do, like many
people find cults, pretty fascinating.
So the Waco film that was on
Netflix or it was like four episodes
(35:39):
or something like that, extremely, extremely compelling.
I thought really well done.
I thought I brought in aspects of the story that as
a little kid, I remember the tragedy and I remember the
SNL skit of it, but it's still not 100% true, obviously.
But I really enjoyed the storytelling on that.
(35:59):
If someone wants something like that.
But reality.
Okay, I got one for you.
I believe it's HBO Max.
And I'm blanking on the exact name now, but it
follows a Church in Knoxville, Tennessee, I want to say.
And it actually started by there was this
woman who had a diet book, and she
(36:23):
basically claimed that God made her thin.
And she got to be very
popular promoting this book among churches.
And then she goes and actually starts
her own Church around, like this kind
of ethos, like, God loves thin people.
And if you come to my Church, I'll make you thin.
Is it the way down?
God greeting the callin, Gwen Shamblen. Yes.
(36:48):
Chilling. True.
Fascinating.
So that would be my kind of real person
rather than watching the drama version of it. Correct.
This was like, we need to call a
babysitter because I cannot leave the TV.
Somebody feed the children.
(37:09):
Okay, so here's one.
This is definitely on the tragic side.
This is on the tragic side, and I
think I still recommend you watch it.
It is probably the best mini. I think it might be the
best mini series I've ever seen. Wow.
It's one of the best things I've seen in a long time.
And that was Dopesick on Hulu.
(37:30):
That was Michael Keaton and Diva Caitlin.
Diva Rosario Dawson.
That one similar to the Wake Up.
I think what I really like, and maybe this is
where you can help me help the reality angles.
I like learning more about something.
When I watch the biopic and it just
(37:51):
hits the origin story and the beats that
everybody knows, it's kind of dull.
I like to see those things, but I'd rather see
angles of those things that I don't know about. I see.
I think Bohemian Rhapsody is a great movie because it
has a little bit of intro, but really, it's giving
(38:12):
you more angles on things that I know happened. Right.
And so on.
Dopesick we all know and hear about the opioid crisis?
But I can't say I knew much about the inner
world of the Sacklers or how it really affects from
beginning to end in a lot of different ways, different
families, and the way they were able to tease out
(38:36):
all these different threads I just found so fascinating.
And the acting is off the charts.
The writing is off the charts.
So again, that one's pretty tragic.
I got a tragic one for you. Okay.
I got one.
And again, I don't dabble too much in the tragic.
So this is like I've seen it because somebody else
was watching it, and then I would physically feel ill.
(38:59):
But I want to say, is it Lifetime?
Is it A and E?
The two that come to
mind are intervention and Hoarders.
Hoarders, I can't watch that because you're sitting in my
office right now and you're like, oh, my God.
And especially my Hoarding is only
allowed in one part of it.
You know how I like a hospital
corner, but that's when that is sad.
(39:22):
That is tragic.
That is hard.
These are isolated people for any number of
reasons, and that is a tough watch.
So in that case, in the Dopesa case, we're
talking about this sort of societal issue that may
have been engineered by terrible people in Hoarders.
(39:43):
It sounds like it's more personally, it's
more of like a personal issue. Right.
Well, I would argue that there's probably constraints of
society that have driven people to be hoarders.
Like, it's the same structural issues.
I mean, the same thing.
Intervention is literally about people who still
have addiction issues in the same way. Dopesick is.
Right. Got it.
(40:03):
But I mean, it's the same systematic lack of support
for people with mental health issues or addiction issues that
just does not exist in the United States.
That drives people.
Like, we constantly talk about at work.
We're working on behalf of the
42 million people experiencing hunger.
42 million people aren't doing it wrong.
(40:25):
Like, there are systems in place that make this.
So I think that in the same way, like intervention
and horror kind of captures a piece of it.
See, you're always so wise.
Always so wise.
It's really powerful. Okay.
So I'm trying to think of more of,
like a funny, almost surreal real story.
(40:49):
I think of some of these biographies
that are almost like fictitious hit, like
they're real, but they're also fictitious.
I'm thinking of this is kind of a funny one.
Howard Stern's Private Parts. Okay.
Or there's this new Weird Al one being made where
Daniel Radcliffe is going to play Weird All Yankees.
That's fascinating.
And I'm sure they are going to be like Private Parts.
(41:11):
It might have some moments in it that
are real, but it's going to have a
lot of surreal kind of wackiness about this.
Is there a reality? I got one. Wow.
You know, I do already, and I don't know this one
as well, but I've heard wonderful things about Drag Race.
Okay.
But in the sense, like, it follows.
I hear that as an inspiring, awesome show.
(41:32):
Yes, absolutely. That's RuPaul's show. Correct. Okay.
And they actually launched one in Canada.
There's a Canadian version with Brad
Goreski, who was also on Bravo.
But again, crossover cool.
But again, it follows the human.
There's also, like this performative piece of it.
All right, cool. Yeah. Dabble in that. Okay. All right.
(41:53):
Well, that is the best thing on anyone's
toes I've pretty much ever seen an interview
Katie, I want to now throw.
So you alluded that I know a little bit
about reality shows, as I always like to do
when I'm guessing on Five and Favorites.
I like to bring in a little flavor
of Friday Night Movie, which is my regular
(42:13):
podcast, if the listeners want to hear it.
On Friday Night Movie, we play
our signature game by Rent May. Okay.
Where you get three things and you have to assign each
one of those the Buy the Rent or the May, the
by being the most valuable, the Rent being the second, literally
writing it down because I need to concentrate.
And then the met is actually whatever
(42:34):
you want it to be because sometimes
I throw things other people don't know. Okay. Okay.
So we're just going to play a couple of
rounds of Buy Rent around the reality shows that
I actually have either like or have some kind
of connection to on sort of a deeper where
I could actually have a conversation about these things.
Even though I don't know what a vendor pump is.
(42:55):
Actually, I still don't know what a vendor pump is.
Okay.
I still can't figure it out. Okay.
I'm not sure if I'd recommend it to you these days, but.
Okay. Okay, cool.
So no Vanderpumps and I don't like the
ones with the people with like 38 kids,
like the John and Kate situation.
Yeah, I feel like that situation unraveled. Right. Yeah.
That went bad.
They were pioneers. Okay. Yeah.
(43:17):
All right.
So I have liked, again, a little
bit more on the Zany side.
And in the VH One early days when their reality TV
was connected somewhat to the themes of what that channel is
supposed to be, which in my view was like the History
Channel of Music or the Anne of Music.
(43:38):
But now, like, Annie is garbage, too.
Okay, so The Surreal Life, which had six or
seven good seasons until the Omarosa flavor, flavor.
Bridget.
I think that was like the peak season.
That season was really special.
(43:59):
So I would start there.
I would start with The Surreal Life. Okay.
Flavor of Love, which was flavor. Flavor. Oh, yeah.
And then I guess it's more of a dating show.
Also, which was the one with Brett?
Is it Brett Michaels or Brett Michael's? Rock of Love.
(44:21):
Yes. Rock of Love.
Every rose has its thorn of love.
I'm actually physically twitching.
Yeah, but then there was.
Wasn't there one with Tila tequila, also, that was like
a shot of Love and Tequila or something like that.
Wasn't Cardi B on one of the V.
H one shows and she launched off of.
(44:41):
I don't know.
We're going to consult while you
answer my question about Surreal Life. Flavor of Love.
Because I'll rent. Excuse me?
I'll buy whatever Cardi B.
Okay, I will buy that.
But what are your memories of The Surreal Life?
Because I would say that to me is
probably my all time favorite because that show
is ultimately very humanizing for characters that like
(45:04):
Vanilla Ice, and I found it deeply tragic. Really?
It was really sad.
So again, I remember the happiest parts of that.
(45:29):
What's the lowest one? Me.
Well, it can be if you want it
to be, because then that's what I'm doing.
Okay, so Cardi B was on the television
series Love and Hip Hop New York. Okay.
Which was a VH One show.
Yeah, but that one actually. Bye bye. Bye.
I know, but that wasn't on the
list because I'd never heard of.
(45:49):
I can add to the list. Okay. All right, fair enough.
So bye bye bye, Cardi B. Bye.
Okay, so you're just buying Cardi B?
Yeah, that's a Lily move that's my sister ads are open.
All right.
Surreal Life you find tragic.
I do, but I mean, at least I did consume
it, so that would have to probably be my rent. Okay.
And then the ones with the word love in the title.
Flavor of Love. Rock of Love. Yeah. Trash.
(46:11):
And what makes those trash because
of, like, Michaels is trash. Okay.
Like the inherent kind of misogyny or that
it's just like a trashy dating show again,
for me, I don't like the tragic stuff.
So the desperation for Brett Michael to basically need
(46:33):
to go on a show to make money.
I thought you meant, like, the women
trying to get on his tour bus.
Well, that I think is sad. Right?
Like, you think you're going to
find connection with Brett Michaels.
What are we doing?
What are they I mean, I think
they're there for it to get famous.
But isn't that sad?
Like the personal fulfillment that they're seeking is
(46:55):
to be on a show with Brett Michaels? Wow.
Really dragging Brett Michael.
I just took a turn.
Now what about did you ever watch any of the parodies?
Because I will say I love the
parodies Burning Love, which featured Ken Marino.
(47:16):
I feel like I need to watch a few minutes of this.
It had Ken Marino and June.
Diane and Rayfield were sort of
two of the most memorable ones.
But also Kristen Bell did a cameo.
Janet Barney was on it. Okay.
Never heard of it.
Okay, so there's Burning Love and there's season one.
I haven't seen season two, but season two brings
(47:38):
back one of the women and it flips it.
Then there's Bajillion Dollar Properties, which was
with Paul F, Tompkins and Tony Newsome.
And that to me, is truly one
of the funniest things I've ever seen.
And that's the whole real estate thing. Yeah.
I think I might have seen something of that.
And then what about The Real Housewives of Orlando?
(48:00):
Oh, what's great about each of the Hot Wives.
The Hot Wives of Orlando. Yes.
Casey Wilson, Daniel Schneider.
What's great about each one of these is that all
of them could also they're, like just a little bit
off from reality, but close enough that they are. Yeah.
So I will buy anything Casey Wilson,
(48:21):
Danielle Schneider, do again, I recommend their
podcast, The Bitch Session, where they break
down episodes of Bravo and Housewives.
So bye, bye, bye, the Hot
Wives, Real Housewives of Orlando.
Again, because I've dabbled in Bajillion
Dollar Properties or whatever it's called.
That would probably have to be my rent.
And I've never heard of your other one.
(48:42):
I already forgot which one. Burning Love. Oh, no.
Burning Love.
After this, we're going to watch a few minutes of
it, and I think you're going to find it.
I do like June, Diane, Rayfield. I do.
It's considered a very high quality comedy takedown.
We haven't agreed this entire podcast.
(49:02):
So I am interested to watch this with you now.
Katie Jones, the Wise Katie Jones, bringing us so
much incredible insight into the world of reality TV
as we wrap up this edition of Finding Favorites.
Do you have anything you want people to
follow you on or recommend or recommend?
(49:23):
Because I know you're a little mysterious in the
social media, I'm pretty sure you can only get
to you by following your husband you can find
me so I'll recommend Friday night movie.
I'll recommend thank you pancake for
table follow there for great content.
Thank you yes.
So as Katie mentioned that is where you can
(49:46):
find me on a weekly basis Friday night movie
with my sister, sometimes my wife as well.
You can also follow me at
pancake and the number four table.
Thank you as always to Leah Jones for sharing her
microphone with me and some of my favorite people and
to all of the finding favorite listeners who are being
supportive of the show and Leah while she makes her
(50:09):
recovery wishing you always a speedy and full recovery sending
lots of love and thanks for listening and I publicly
apologize to Brad Michaels.
Thank you for listening to
finding favorites with Leah Jones.
Please make sure to subscribe and drop
us a five star review on itunes.
(50:29):
Now go out and enjoy your favorite things.
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