January 5, 2024 • 53 mins
At first, the operating room and an art studio may seem to be the antithesis of settings and purposes. However, they could not be more alike and comparable: the stillness of focus of both operating on an organ and painting on a canvas, the vast array of sterile scalpels and paintbrushes, the richness of flowing bright red blood on the table and the maroon pigment dripping on the floor from the board, and the surge of adrenaline in the events of a crashing patient and a new creative idea in the spur of the moment. For our episode's expert guest today, this is definitely the case: the colliding worlds of brain surgery and the fine arts, the sacred space of the surgical room and the atelier. Truly, when she is not operating on a brain, she is painting one.
We are joined by ambidextrous neurosurgeon and multimedia artist Dr. Kathryn Ko. She received her BA in Zoology and MD from the University of Hawaiʻi at Mānoa John A. Burns School of Medicine, Neurosurgery residency at the University of Washington and Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai, and MFA in Painting from the Academy of Arts University, where she graduated Cum Laude. Dr. Ko has been the Chief of Neurosurgery at MetroNeurosurgery since 2003, where she invented the patent for a method of performing decompressive craniectomy through a bone flap removal from a cranium in 2007. She is the author of The Survival Bible for Women in Medicine, published in 1998, and the creator of the blog post Neurosurgery Le Freak in 2015. Within the arts, Dr. Ko has been an artist and writer for The Neurosurgeon's Studio: American Association of Neurological Surgeons (AANS) since 2016, curator of the American Medical Women's Association: Studio AMWA since 2015, and a member of the prestigious Society of Illustrators since 2015. She has been featured in The New York Times.
Livestream Air Date: March 15, 2023
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hi friends, Happy New Year, Happy 2024, how crazy is that?
(00:09):
I hope you all had a great holiday season, whether in celebration or just going through
the usual motions of life if you don't celebrate.
If you noticed, I took a break from releasing an episode last week Friday because I was
in full on vacation mode.
I actually flew to California to visit my family to celebrate Christmas.
It was with my dad's side of the family, my uncle, his wife, and my cousin Kyle, who
(00:31):
most of you have grown to know online over the past few years on my Instagram.
This Christmas is actually super and extra special and memorable for me because this
is actually the very first time I ever celebrate the holidays with them, or any of my father's
family in fact.
I don't really share much about my family online for privacy, but I guess over the past
few years I have become more open about this.
(00:53):
A holiday story incoming, I actually never met my father for those who don't know.
In fact, I didn't know anything about him until around five or six years ago.
Very recently, I didn't know his name, how he looks like, anything.
I won't get into the details in this episode intro, maybe in a future episode or video,
but in summary, I grew up with my single mom and amazing woman truly, but I definitely
(01:17):
always wondered about my father and his family.
The reason why I grew up not knowing anything is something that I will also allocate for
that future explanation video.
Anyways, I remember being eight years old one day in the cathedral with my mother and
grandmother during the Christmas Advent season, praying that someday I could also spend the
holidays with my dad or his family side too.
(01:40):
During that moment, I knew it was an impossible prayer, but look where we are now.
Just 20 years later, it finally happened and I couldn't be ever more grateful.
Yes, due to certain deputist events, I was able to connect my dad's side.
Though I never got to meet my dad because it actually passed a year before this, I finally
met his brother and his family in 2019 in California and my wish as an eight year old
(02:06):
finally came true.
Now, why did I had to go on this whole Christmas journey because I just wanted to tell my story?
Well, on Christmas day, we actually drove to Las Vegas for a few days to celebrate.
We met my cousin Kyle's childhood friend who happened to be both a contemporary dancer
and a massage therapist.
Now, if you have been following the podcast for a while, you might notice that most of
(02:28):
our expert guests are exactly in this same regard and story, providing service and care
to others, whether clinical or scientific and also living other lives.
We met a rock star turned anesthesiologist in season one, physical medicine doctor, and
also a dancing heartthrob online in the same lifetime, a real housewife of Dallas and a
physician and we can go on.
(02:50):
Our episode today is a continuation of the Santa Montana like best of both worlds stories,
a badass healthcare worker and a star on the side.
I have the greatest honor of sitting down in this episode with an actual icon who I
genuinely am a huge fan of.
I still can't believe that I actually got to sat down and have this episode with her.
I'm talking about Dr. Kathryn Ko.
(03:12):
She's a board certified neurosurgeon ambidextrous at that with over three decades of service,
having been the chief of neurosurgery for over 20 years of this.
In fact, she invented the patent for a method of performing decompressive corneectomy through
a bone flap removal from a cranium back in 2007.
In 1998, she authored the survival Bible for women in medicine.
(03:34):
But beyond this, beyond the medicine, she's a multimedia artist having attained a master's
of fine arts and painting.
She's a senior curator at the American Medical Women's Association, creator of art space
and blog post neurosurgery, Lafrique, and artist and writer for the American Association of
Neurological Surgeons, the neurosurgeon studio with her work and story being featured on
(03:56):
New York Times.
What an honor, a neurosurgeon and an artist.
Nothing can get better than that.
I hope you enjoyed today's episode and I hope you have a great rest of the day and a happy
new year.
I hope this one is as marvelous and as great and as amazing and as fulfilling for you as
(04:16):
it would be for me.
Let's manifest it.
Hi, Doc.
Hey, how are you?
Good.
Thank you so much for joining me tonight.
Well, thanks for asking me.
It's a pleasure to talk to you.
Oh my gosh, it's such an honor.
Are you in New York?
No, I'm actually in Pacific, somewhere in the Pacific Ocean.
(04:40):
I'm so jealous.
I escaped the nor'easter, luckily.
Yeah, we had some snow yesterday, so I'm so jealous.
Again, thank you so much for being with me tonight.
I am such a huge fan of your work and of your story and everything that you do.
So thank you so much for joining me on my platform.
(05:01):
You could first please introduce yourself to everybody.
Okay, hi.
I'm Doc Ambidexter or Kathryn Ko, and I'm an ordinary brain surgeon.
And I also do art, and I'm originally from Honolulu.
I went to medical school at the University of Hawaii, and then I did my neurosurgery
(05:21):
residency at Mount Sinai, and I did a fellowship at the University of Washington in cerebrovascular
surgery and research.
And then when my career, about mid-career, I decided to get a master's of fine art in
painting with an emphasis on medical themes.
And so that's really, I've kind of combined both careers now.
(05:42):
I don't really see much of a difference between the brush and the scalpel.
It's sort of the same.
And also, you know, I'm biracial.
And so I'm so old that I was biracial before the term came up.
Yes, I'm actually Korean and Irish, and so that's kind of an important theme for me also
(06:02):
in knowing intimately two different cultures, having two different perspectives on things,
and utilizing them in my journey to the best of my ability.
So yeah, that's how I got to.
And then when I did my residency at Mount Sinai in New York City, I decided to stay.
And partly I stayed because I had a really good job offer.
(06:23):
I started working for Cornell, the Department of Neuroscience at Cornell University.
I did that for a couple of years.
And so I stayed in New York, but I also then decided, yeah, it's a really good art scene.
And I sort of had a kernel of an idea that I might want to go do something in the arts.
And so I sort of, you know, stuck around.
(06:43):
It turned out to be a pretty good idea.
So working in New York City is very competitive, as you know, Chris, you know.
Yeah, I'm glad that I did that.
And now I'm sort of, you know, my career is sort of 30 years now.
And so it might soon be time to turn to the page and do something new.
We'll see.
(07:04):
Yeah, I mean, there's nothing ordinary about you.
I look up to you so greatly.
I wanted to ask though, where did that inspiration for medicine come from?
Is there like a family member, a friend, a personal experience?
Well, you know, my mother had polio and I wrote about this story called The Wound Whisperer
(07:26):
because my mother got polio just before the vaccine came out.
And so my whole life was sort of geared toward disability, you know, because when you're
a child and your mother has difficulty moving and falls and things like that, you're very
aware.
I don't know.
That's the inspiration.
I always loved science too though.
So I was going to do something in science no matter what it was, whether it was, so
(07:49):
I graduated in zoology.
So I had initially interested in animal medicine and God bless the veterinarians.
I admire them so much, but I migrated over to human, the human side about my third year
of college.
And then, but I did graduate in zoology.
So technically speaking, I could work at a zoo.
(08:13):
So working with different types of animals, right?
Second career, right?
Yeah.
I mean, my inspiration for healthcare also came from my mom, not because of the disease
aspect, but she was a nurse.
She actually just retired.
She's been a nurse for 30 years.
So also ever since as a kid, I was like, yeah, I think I want to do something within taking
(08:34):
care of people as well.
Yeah.
I saw that post about your mother and that she had recently retired and, you know, give
her a hug for me because the nursing staff and the physician assistant staff and everybody
down to even the people that clean the OAR.
I mean, I mean the work they do and sometimes they don't get that acknowledgement, but some
(08:57):
of my favorite people.
I remember when I first started, I came from Honolulu and I ended up at Coney Island hospital.
That's where I did my internship in Brooklyn.
And I remember the first person who was kind to me was the janitor and she just, yeah,
she just, I mean, she was amazing and I never forgot her and she was cleaning and she was
(09:20):
the one that looked up and she said, you know, having a hard night.
And I said, yeah.
And she was encouraging.
So yeah, everybody, the healthcare, anybody in the hospital, sometimes you have to just
sit and wonder and thank them for what they do.
Yeah.
I mean, I worked throughout the whole COVID-19, like the epicenter in 2020 in New York and
(09:42):
you know how hard like New York city was hit in, it was a March, April of 2020.
And I mean, just also props to, we always say, I mean, my coworkers, like the janitors,
the environmental staff who would go in and clean the rooms and we had no idea what was
going on in the air.
Oh yeah.
I mean, that COVID period in New York city was, you know, I'm still thinking about how
(10:08):
to recover from it both physically and also emotionally.
It was such a, it's such an incredible experience, you know?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I've seen how much of a toll it's brought on so many healthcare workers, especially
physicians as well.
But if you like the life of a physician is a life of many tolls, right?
(10:28):
I mean, it's just such a long and arduous road from school and training and exams.
And I feel like the education learning never stops, especially for you and your surgery.
I guess it's a very standardized thing where there's like so much sacrifices, right?
A lot of things that you have to give up, potential money that you had to give up with
(10:50):
student loans or the years that you're in the residency and you're incurring, you know,
interest to any loans that you've gotten, missed parties, missed family occasions.
Do you have any regrets going through at all now that you have been practicing?
No, I'm glad I did it.
I wish the system would change though, that number one, the medical students wouldn't
(11:14):
have that huge financial burden on their backs when they get out because it's really stressful
to have to own six figures, you know?
I didn't come from, I paid for my own school.
I went to public school all the way and I took loans and everything like that.
My family could not give anything.
(11:34):
And so I know how it feels.
Of course, during my time, the rates were much lower, but yeah, that's one thing.
I wish the system would change.
I wish it's such a long process.
For me, it was 16 years before I could, you know, hang out my shingle.
So, you know, you miss a lot of your growing up.
(11:57):
And so when you're in the hospital day in, day out, and in the operating room day in,
day out, sometimes your emotional maturity doesn't keep up with your peers who are, you
know, outside doing other jobs, nine to five, no weekends.
And so I think that's part of, I think if I hadn't gone into art, which shows me a different
(12:19):
way of thinking and looking at the world, you know, maybe I would have some regrets
or some, I would admit, but I think, you know, art really saved me.
And because it made me see something in the quiet of my studio, there's something about
being in a studio and you're painting maybe some idea that you've operated on, some concept,
(12:44):
some narrative that gives you insight and profound thought that, you know, in the hospital
when you're moving and you're walking around and somebody's, a patient is crashing, you're
focused on trying to fix the problem.
But in the art studio, you can focus on what you've been through, what that family's been
(13:05):
through, what the patient is going through.
And it gives you a deeper sense of responsibility and gratitude that you've chosen this field.
Because the gratitude can get lost when you're tired, when you're under stress and you forget
why you're in the field.
So, you know, being an artist, I think really, really helped me.
(13:27):
And I'm just glad I did it.
I didn't know I was an artist until late in my career, very late.
One of the things too is you're surprising that things may bubble up in your life that
surprise you, that you never knew you had inside of you until one day you wake up and
you just say, huh, you know, this is who I am.
(13:50):
This is really who I am.
And I think people would be shocked if they knew me in medical school to find out I was
an artist, you know.
Yeah, I mean, I think your art too, like the things that you paint, it's very intentional.
And you know, I have read a lot of your excerpts in your book.
I noticed how very intentional you are with everything that you have done, dog.
(14:14):
I mean, you even wrote a book called The Survival Bible for Women in Medicine, I think in 1998.
And you know, I think that's emanating from your pictures, again, being intentional to
writing a book like this, like a survival guide.
I wanted to know what was your experiences as a woman in medicine, either in school or
(14:35):
in training that led you to write a book like that?
Well, you know, the Survival Bible for Women in Medicine, this is how long ago it was written.
I wrote it.
So I finished residency in 1991, but I actually wrote really quick.
(14:57):
I wrote it like in 92, 93, but it took some time to get published.
And because it was one of the first books by a woman in medicine for women in medicine,
and it's not just doctors, it's all women who are, you know, physicians, nurses, nurses,
things like that.
It's all women in medicine.
And it is geared toward the presidency doctors thing.
(15:18):
And I didn't have women around me in residency.
And the ones that I did, we were kind of isolated.
And so it was kind of like my love note, something I just wanted to give the women that I couldn't
directly touch or communicate with because the neurosurgery at that time, very isolated.
(15:39):
So I was, I literally hand wrote it.
And I, there was, and it got published.
And it's so long ago now, but I finally converted it into a doc, doc doc, Microsoft doc doc.
So I'm going to update it.
And it's probably going to be called either daughter of survival Bible, like daughter
(16:00):
of Frankenstein or granddaughter.
I want to just publish it online and then people can read it.
But it'll be updated.
One of the funny things in that book was I had a recipe, you know, I was cooking during
those days.
I had a recipe for fried rice.
That's the Kathryn Ko-fried rice recipe.
(16:26):
But I'm a vegetarian now.
I wasn't then.
So that definitely has to be updated.
Yeah.
I love it.
Yeah.
I mean, I guess from the time that you were writing that book, I mean, I can't imagine
how isolated it was for especially in neurosurgery.
I mean, we know the statistics when it comes to women in surgery specifically, right.
(16:47):
And even more to so specialties in surgery, like neurosurgery, orthopedic surgery.
Are there things that you have seen throughout the years that still needs to change until
now for women, especially female physicians, whether it's residents or attendings?
Yeah.
I think it has, of course, it's much better than when I went, when I went through the
(17:12):
system.
But I think having women, having women go through the female life cycle, I think that
helps the women that come afterwards.
And just the fact that a female is there gives the predominant culture, which is which during
my time as a male is a predominant culture, the idea that women can be there and everything
(17:37):
that the males do.
When I was there, you know, the problem with surgery, though, is it's a physical thing.
Yeah, of course, you know, you have to understand everything and a lot of thinking, a lot of
studying, but it's physical.
And so when I was there, the tools were for men.
So it's as good as Serena Williams is using one of the males rackets to play ball.
(18:02):
So that was something that I don't think any of my professors had any notion of that, you
know, that females approach surgery, you know, there's a size difference, there's a strength
difference, males approach surgery differently and the tools, the hand size.
And that's something that I kind of had to work through myself.
And in fact, after residency, I ended up using almost none of the tools that I had bought
(18:29):
to use because they just didn't fit my hand well.
And so it took a while.
And that's, that's some of the things when you have women around you teaching you, they
have the same skill set.
And I remember my best assistants during surgery when I was, when I became an attendant, all
these women, they were like absolutely the best assistants.
(18:50):
Of course, there was some really good male assistants, but in general, there's nothing
like having doing surgery and having a female, a woman colleague across the field from you.
Such a sense of comfort.
Yeah.
And that's an important thing.
But I hope the residencies have matured to realize that, you know, women bring a lot
(19:13):
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Yeah.
I mean, we do have no choice but to plow forward.
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(22:37):
I guess also throughout the years, Doc, you've probably seen so many brokenness within the
healthcare system, for sure.
Like very systemic flaws and errors.
And I guess COVID has exposed a lot of those brokenness into the light, especially into
the media, right?
Let's say a student somewhere in the world wants to pursue medicine, but is afraid of
(23:04):
the daunting brokenness again in the system and is asking if it's still worth it to pursue
medicine with all of your experience and all that you have seen, I guess, with your patient
experiences and all that.
Do you think it's still worth it to enter medicine in a time like this?
Yeah, I do.
I think that it's one of the fields where you get paid to do good.
(23:29):
So I think if you really like science and you like medicine and you have a hankering
for service, you cannot beat the feeling you get from making a difference in somebody's
life.
Even if they don't thank you, it's still something that rises above money.
(23:51):
It rises above almost everything.
And so that part, you have to have that feeling and you have to have that desire that something
like that would make your life fulfilling.
It's the same thing with art.
When someone looks at one of my art pieces and they get, and it somehow ministerially
(24:13):
changes their outlook on something, it has deep, profound meaning for me.
Medicine is like that too, in that it can really have an impact on that person's life.
And so if you want to leave some kind of a trace on this earth, that is a really, really
(24:36):
good avenue.
I just wish that they would cut the time down so that people wouldn't have to go through
16 years to become a neurosurgeon.
And I want the people to be more accepting of having outside lifestyles, for example,
some other stuff, some other things.
I think one of my messages in medicine is that you can do multiple things.
(25:02):
Don't ever be pushed into the idea that you have to just do medicine.
I remember when I was interviewing neurosurgery years ago, I told one of the guys, I was interviewing
with one of the professors and I said, well, you know, he said, what are you?
And I said, I'm very active.
I'm a runner.
And he goes, well, you won't run anymore.
And so that attitude, well, you know, listen, buddy, I ran, I ran, I did, you know, so that
(25:28):
attitude is, and he should have told me and said, well, you won't run anymore.
He should have said, you know what, just go for everything you can possibly do and be
a neurosurgeon.
Be an artist and be this and be a mother and be this and be this.
So you know, that's the attitude that I want in my professors and people that follow me.
(25:51):
I want them to be inclusive of different perspectives and what anybody, you know, the more off the
rails you are, the more you bring to the profession.
That thinking was never there.
They used to say, you've got to all be the same.
You know, you've got to all be the same.
You've got to be the same gender, the same this, same that.
(26:14):
No, the more different you are, the higher the program is, the higher the whole message
is.
So that's just one of my things.
And I think that comes from being biracial is that, you know, you're looking at things
you kind of don't really fit in one way or the other.
And you're kind of watching this, watching that and take the best.
(26:35):
It reminds me of the talent that Obama had by being biracial.
He had a similar perspective on things that I thought was very unique.
Yeah, yeah, I super agree, Doug.
I mean, I think they're also seeing a new generation of doctors, right?
And also other health care workers where it's like, oh, you know, I'm a doctor, but I'm
(26:56):
also a singer and also a dancer.
I'm also a this and a that, right?
I feel like the pool of students and the residents are becoming more diversified, not just when
it comes to racism, but we're seeing I think here in social media, especially on TikTok,
right?
We see so many talented people.
And before you know it, they're actually a surgeon.
(27:16):
They're actually this and that too.
So I agree with that.
And one of my mentors, who's also an attending physician, she was saying how she's so excited
for the next generation of physicians to come in, where brings more to the table when it
comes to experiences and hobbies and other activities and stuff like that.
(27:36):
I think your generation, the generation that you encompass, really makes some amazing changes.
I do think that healthcare should be free.
And I don't think anybody should have to go into debt to save their life or make their
life better.
And so I think that that is coming and COVID may have had a little bit to do with that.
(27:58):
So yeah, so one of the things I've done with COVID is that when the government wants to
do something, they do it.
Free tests, free vaccines, and so well organized.
So I'm hopeful that by the time you reach my age, things will have really changed so
that most of my career was done in socioeconomically challenged areas.
(28:22):
I worked a lot at Harlem Hospital.
I've also worked in the South Bronx and it's such an incredible experience to see what
people in those communities have to go through to get good healthcare.
And I would not change that experience for any IVD or any highfalutin beautiful hospital.
(28:47):
I would rather work in those types of environments because it made me a better person.
And there's no way to teach that except to do it.
Yeah, I mean, I also rotated at Harlem Hospital during my clinicals in nursing school and
a lot of the city hospitals here in New York too, in Woodhall and Bellevue.
And I think it's in those populations and areas where you're right, Doc, you really
(29:09):
see this fragility of the human condition where it's like, this is healthcare, this
is medicine, right?
This is the crux of it all.
And I actually pretty agree with that.
And essentially, I wanted to ask why neurosurgery?
What led you to this specialty as opposed to other things?
Well, basically, I was an athlete my whole life.
(29:33):
So I wanted to do something physical, right?
That puts me in the surgical category.
And brain really, it's just plain and simple because one of my goals before was to try
to understand the human brain.
And at this point in my life, I realized that that was pretty naive.
(29:56):
And I should have tried to understand outer space.
Because the brain is just like an unfolding box.
You can never get to the end of it.
And we probably are at our infancy in terms of understanding the depth of complexity of
the human brain.
But basically, I went in because I thought I was going to go into OBGYN.
(30:17):
And then when we did neuroanatomy, I just said, wait a minute.
Okay.
There we go.
Hold on.
I told myself, hold on.
I think I'm going to study this organ.
But I have the best OBGYN ever.
So, you know, one of the things I wanted to tell you is when I first decided to branch
(30:40):
off into art, I was embarrassed to tell my colleagues that I was going to art.
Because at that point, it was mid-career, I was chief at a hospital, a level one trauma
hospital for neurosurgery in the Bronx.
And I didn't want to tell anybody because I thought they would judge me.
But once they saw my art, they actually embraced it.
(31:03):
So sometimes you think you're doing something a little bit outside the mainstream and it's
odd.
And then, I don't know, for some reason, sometimes people just, instead of like saying, you know,
what are you doing?
What are you wasting?
They embrace it.
And yeah, so just do whatever is in your heart and bring it to the field and don't worry
(31:27):
about what they are going to say because probably they'll celebrate you.
Yeah.
And I love also how you said that, I mean, your colleagues, once they saw your art, it's
like, yes, full support.
I know you said that your artistic love, you know, came in the middle of your journey.
But when you were a kid, did you ever already like Jolie?
(31:48):
Did you realize?
No, I did not.
I didn't start until about 15 years ago.
As well as in my 40s, when I really started, I was taking a few classes for, you know,
you don't know why you do stuff, but it comes from something deep inside, like there's a
little kernel.
(32:09):
And so I said, Oh, let me sign up for this art class at the Y. Right.
And I miss half of them because of surgery or emergency.
And I was like, you know, I was looking at my pieces and I was saying, you're terrible.
It's so bad.
And I said, if you really want to sing, you've got to go to formal school.
And so at that point, you know, I made a decision.
(32:30):
I said, you know, I think it's giving me something.
I couldn't even verbalize what comfort or solace or refuge that art was giving me.
But I realized that I had after art school, that I had something that kind of expunged
onto the canvas.
And then, you know, dealing with the canvas and the narrative, it made my neurosurgery
(32:52):
career better.
Yeah.
It's like, really, you know, when you, you think, Oh, you know, you're going out, you're
going outside the lines, you know, you're doing one thing that nobody else is doing.
And it's kind of odd.
No, no, actually it's, it's, it's something you need.
Yeah.
And it's surprising.
It comes up.
Yeah, you know, like there's a lot of my colleagues, a few of my colleagues who said, you know,
(33:13):
when I retire, I'm going to go into art and you know, I just kind of just said, Oh, okay.
But in reality, in reality, if it's burning inside of you, don't wait.
Go and do it.
Like just somehow find a way to do a little bit of it.
Because you know, like they say, Oh, I'm going to do it when I retire.
(33:35):
You know, when you retire, it's true.
Yeah.
I mean, also like things come up, like who imagined this pandemic to come up, right?
Like, yeah, things are so unexpected.
You're right.
Like we should just really go for it.
And you went for your MFA, right?
And what led to that decision of, Oh, actually I'm going to do like formal studies as opposed
(33:57):
to just like, I'm just going to paint as a passion.
Because I was terrible.
I was embarrassed when I was at the Y, I would like hide my canvas.
So no one would see it.
It was a disaster.
So I realized it's like pre-med.
I needed the pre-med classes to like, you know, how does color work here?
(34:19):
How does value work?
How does composition?
And it was like almost a whole different language compared to neurosurgery and medicine.
It took me basically three and a half years to get through school and medicine was four
years and it was expensive to become an artist.
And I felt really like, you know, from the art side, you know, a lot of my colleagues
(34:42):
who paint way better than I am, they're going to have a hard time finding jobs in art itself.
But it was funny because here's a little funny story.
So I was in the operating room one day.
I had my residency.
I was chief resident and one of the mean professors stood at the door and yelled, you hold the
(35:04):
cranial drill like a girl.
And I just, I was like, I was like thinking to myself, what am I crappy?
You know, what, you know, why, why, what's wrong with my hands?
You know, why am I, you know, why?
You know, in your mind, it was a mean move.
It was a mean move.
He meant it mean.
And then I said, you know, what the hell, you know, what's, what's going on?
(35:27):
But I realized, well, how else am I supposed to hold a goddamn cranial drill?
I'm a girl, you know, how am I supposed to hold it?
Like a, you know, and so, and so then I said to myself, I said, took a few years to like
get over that fact because he means it mean, but if I had been a little bit more composed
and not a resident and he hadn't been such a high guy, I would have said to him, how
(35:52):
do you expect me to hold, I would have come back at him, but I didn't, I just held it
inside and it bothered me for many years.
And then I went to art school and then the art professor goes, ah, you paint like a girl.
But I had a big come back then.
That was many years later.
And I said, yeah, well, how else do you expect me to paint?
(36:15):
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(40:05):
Dr. Ko and then the painter Dr. Ko. It seems like it really bleeds into each other for you in your life.
How does neurosurgery help your role and your work as a painter and vice versa?
Painters and neurosurgeon. Well they bleed into each other. They literally bleed into each other.
(40:26):
And I'm always trying to, you know some episode that I've had in the hospital that I want to
investigate a little bit more. I will take it to the canvas. I will kind of analyze it, see what
my feelings were, try to see what the patient had felt. Although none of them are really patients,
(40:48):
they're sort of a conglomerate of different ideas and patients. They're not really portraits of
people. Although some of them look like portraits, it's not nobody in particular. And I just try to
see what was the tension, what was the feeling, what was the passion at that particular moment.
And what I'm trying to do in my art is capture the passion of that particular moment that I felt and
(41:12):
try to have the lay people that are not in medicine when they look at the art to try to get something
from it. And also to try to understand what medical professionals go through on a different
level. You know we can write about it and we can talk about it. But there's something about a visual
image that will stop a person not in medicine cold if it hits them. And so that's what I'm going
(41:39):
after. I'm going after the fact that you know medicine is a whole different way of looking at
life and that you know we're dealing with such critical issues. You know and also the people want
them to relate to their own experiences, some of the people that look at the art. And I think
probably the artists that I went to school with were most interested in medical art, most interested
(42:03):
in it. They found it fascinating. And so I think it does resonate beyond the medical profession,
some of my pieces. And that's what I'm going through. I also do cartooning too. But I think
humor is a good way to elucidate a bad experience. Instead of saying like oh you know this person
(42:23):
said such a mean thing to me and was so mean and this and that. I think if you can make it funny,
it gets your idea across without kind of being negative. Yeah so I use a lot of my cartooning
is very autobiographical. And yeah and there's a lot of different and I try to anyway it's more
(42:44):
autobiographical than my actual fine painting. So the cartooning has a lot to do with what I've
gone through. But presented in a way that's kind of funny. Yeah my next question was going to be as
a painter if your life was a snapshot what would your painting look like? Well it would probably be
(43:04):
a painting of the brain. I don't think I would even have a face there. It'd probably be just the brain
because I think that I don't know for some reason I'm obsessed with it. Which is a real good thing if
you're a brain surgeon right? It would have something to do with my profound esteem and just
(43:27):
incredible whatever it is for the brain. That being from Hawaii and just some of the things I've
gone through. I think that would be really autobiographical. Plus you know hoping that
the women that follow me and have it easier and that I'm grateful to the women that went before me
saving the way through that wilderness. And so yeah so that's kind of like what I am you know
(43:53):
interested in is pushing females forward. Yeah I'm very curious you know you said earlier that
there's just no limits to how much we can understand the brain with how complex or maybe
even over complex it is. Was there ever and this might be hard to answer because there might be
(44:13):
many different points but was there ever a point whether either during surgery or I don't know
post-surgical care where you were just like baffled about an aspect of the human brain that
you were so surprised by? Oh every day. Yeah I just I don't you know there's the thing that
(44:35):
you know I was working at as I said level many level one trauma centers and the intensity of
the injuries and the trauma that people have patients have undergone and the ability to
recover from it is fascinating to me even even strokes. Yeah I just think that you know the
(44:57):
traumatic injuries that I've seen and the results and people fighting to come back you know makes
me admire the brain even more and realizes the power of the human brain. I don't really think
we've tapped into the full power or the full potential of what the human brain is capable
(45:18):
of doing particularly with creativity particularly with the idea of using creativity to solve
problems instead of resulting to aggression and so I do think that having been an artist and a
neurosurgeon is that I am really confident when I have an issue in the operating room that creativity
(45:45):
will solve. I am totally confident if there's anything that I'm confident in besides you know
my neurosurgical skills is creativity and I do think that I can solve a problem creatively
in a kind and truthful way. I think creativity is really the key to moving on to the next level.
(46:07):
How do you feel about that? Yeah I mean I'm just in awe of everything that you have said. Yeah
I think creativity is like a boat in the middle of an ocean that you don't know the dimensions to
right. The fact that everyone is different from each other like someone's creative response to
a problem will be so different from a person next to me right and I wonder what the results
(46:33):
of the fusion of different creativities would be in a single room in a very dire moment which I guess
you've seen the OR right? I mean your brain is not the only brain that's working the OR right?
There's I don't know first assist there or the scrub techs or the nurses. I mean I can't imagine
like in times of emergency how much is like creativity is there to oh maybe this is what
(46:57):
we can do right doc? Yeah yeah because things come up that you didn't learn in emergency and so you
have to somehow you know split second in neurosurgery. Neurosurgery, cardiac surgery, airway,
transplant surgery you know things happen that you didn't train for and you didn't expect and
(47:19):
you have to figure out you have to first of all calm down. I mean once you just have to lower
your everything has to lower and you have to like go into this thing where you don't hear anybody
you're just you're just so focused like a laser on this situation and you have very limited time
to solve the problem and so those things take a few years to learn and to gain confidence but you
(47:46):
do get it you do get it. Yeah it's a it's a hard thing you know that's the kind of thing they don't
really teach is uh you know what to do in that type of situation except that you hope that you
have some experience or you've seen something or you come up with some idea that can solve the problem
it doesn't happen that often um it tends to happen to me uh in middle of the night
(48:09):
to the clock in the morning when you're at a hospital that you know may or may not have had
experience with this type of thing but luckily luckily i've been able to move through those
type of things in a successful way. Yeah i can't let you go without asking you about being ambidextrous
how helpful is that during surgery or painting? So when you're listening to the lectures if you do
(48:36):
write notes i say are you right-handed? I'm right-handed. Switch to your left hand. I couldn't
stay awake in medical school. I just couldn't stay awake. I couldn't stay out of the lectures.
I don't know what to do. I moved too much so sitting in a chair was not good for me and so you know
(48:56):
lectures and so back then we wrote we wrote so i just yeah right i just one day i just said
someone i'm gonna try this i switched hands in medical school and started and so then i could
stay up because i was like i'm concentrating so hard trying to write with the left hand
(49:16):
and then after a period of time i became ambidextrous and i'll tell you something
boy surgical speed to be able to use the tools you know both hands really quickly very dextrous
and in art i switch off between i do a lot of abstract painting with my left hand and regular
painting with the right if i did anything in my life to become ambidextrous that was the best tool
(49:43):
and the hardest by the way was harder to become ambidextrous than it was to become a brain surgeon
can you believe that it should be its own specialty yeah when you graduate you could have like an
ambidextrous fellowship it should be like a new specialty or a new fellowship in surgeries
(50:05):
right right you know unfortunately the tools are made for right-handed the needle holder and so
you have to ask the scrub tech load for the left hand and so a little bit you know it's a little
bit like the scissors right this is just a right a little bit different but yes the first thing
i did i think that helped my creativity a lot i think that solved my creativity yeah for sure
(50:30):
you know we always say that time is brain and it's like in hindsight you are an extender of
people's times the work you do as a neurosurgeon i mean i could never imagine how stressful it could
be i mean people's like lives and extension potential extension of this literally in your
hands and a very small fraction of measurements right how do you decompress out of work after
(50:59):
a long day or just a stressful and tiring day other than the painting that i know that you do
that you do for passion well when you're in surgery every move you make and every breath that you
take in the or you're thinking about that patient is just just are and you are you're so focused and
(51:22):
hoping that your best that day is enough but coming out of the or when you realize that the
surgery went well and you're closing when i say closing you're stitching the wound closed you're
putting the dressing on i just what i what i i had several bad habits which were going to the bending
(51:45):
machines i mean you can't that's terrible you deserve it that was a really bad habit that was
terrible and i wrote about that too because i had everybody in the hospital so but i kind of
(52:07):
i think i think mark i think just thinking about what i got what i've gone through and how i can
consider lives that on a two-dimensional surface helped me more than anything else it kind of
allowed me to figure out a way through that stress and i think that's important for everybody
(52:28):
going to a field of medicine like medicine or anything high stress field is figuring out a way
that you can take your career with you and kind of figure out how you can live with it and in a
meaningful and smooth way because if you don't and you sort of just leave it there i don't know the
(52:49):
thoughts just it just adds up and so yeah stressful situations are in your surgery extremely stressful
extremely there's no there's no getting around that yeah there's no no getting around that yeah
i can't imagine uh dr poe it is such a privilege and honor to have
(53:11):
talked to you tonight and heard your journey and all of your funny stories again thank you so much
for spending today to speak to me today i just have this like revitalized passion in me to give
my best and my all for patients and my future patients so thank you thank you so so much
(53:33):
so much thank you so much chris for having me it's just been it's been so much fun and you only get
funny stories when you get to be as old as i am i am ready please keep in touch and i want to know
what happens to you okay yes doc thank you so much have a good day there okay bye
Hi friends, Happy New Year, Happy 2024, how crazy is that?
(00:09):
I hope you all had a great holiday season, whether in celebration or just going through
the usual motions of life if you don't celebrate.
If you noticed, I took a break from releasing an episode last week Friday because I was
in full on vacation mode.
I actually flew to California to visit my family to celebrate Christmas.
It was with my dad's side of the family, my uncle, his wife, and my cousin Kyle, who
(00:31):
most of you have grown to know online over the past few years on my Instagram.
This Christmas is actually super and extra special and memorable for me because this
is actually the very first time I ever celebrate the holidays with them, or any of my father's
family in fact.
I don't really share much about my family online for privacy, but I guess over the past
few years I have become more open about this.
(00:53):
A holiday story incoming, I actually never met my father for those who don't know.
In fact, I didn't know anything about him until around five or six years ago.
Very recently, I didn't know his name, how he looks like, anything.
I won't get into the details in this episode intro, maybe in a future episode or video,
but in summary, I grew up with my single mom and amazing woman truly, but I definitely
(01:17):
always wondered about my father and his family.
The reason why I grew up not knowing anything is something that I will also allocate for
that future explanation video.
Anyways, I remember being eight years old one day in the cathedral with my mother and
grandmother during the Christmas Advent season, praying that someday I could also spend the
holidays with my dad or his family side too.
(01:40):
During that moment, I knew it was an impossible prayer, but look where we are now.
Just 20 years later, it finally happened and I couldn't be ever more grateful.
Yes, due to certain deputist events, I was able to connect my dad's side.
Though I never got to meet my dad because it actually passed a year before this, I finally
met his brother and his family in 2019 in California and my wish as an eight year old
(02:06):
finally came true.
Now, why did I had to go on this whole Christmas journey because I just wanted to tell my story?
Well, on Christmas day, we actually drove to Las Vegas for a few days to celebrate.
We met my cousin Kyle's childhood friend who happened to be both a contemporary dancer
and a massage therapist.
Now, if you have been following the podcast for a while, you might notice that most of
(02:28):
our expert guests are exactly in this same regard and story, providing service and care
to others, whether clinical or scientific and also living other lives.
We met a rock star turned anesthesiologist in season one, physical medicine doctor, and
also a dancing heartthrob online in the same lifetime, a real housewife of Dallas and a
physician and we can go on.
(02:50):
Our episode today is a continuation of the Santa Montana like best of both worlds stories,
a badass healthcare worker and a star on the side.
I have the greatest honor of sitting down in this episode with an actual icon who I
genuinely am a huge fan of.
I still can't believe that I actually got to sat down and have this episode with her.
I'm talking about Dr. Kathryn Ko.
(03:12):
She's a board certified neurosurgeon ambidextrous at that with over three decades of service,
having been the chief of neurosurgery for over 20 years of this.
In fact, she invented the patent for a method of performing decompressive corneectomy through
a bone flap removal from a cranium back in 2007.
In 1998, she authored the survival Bible for women in medicine.
(03:34):
But beyond this, beyond the medicine, she's a multimedia artist having attained a master's
of fine arts and painting.
She's a senior curator at the American Medical Women's Association, creator of art space
and blog post neurosurgery, Lafrique, and artist and writer for the American Association of
Neurological Surgeons, the neurosurgeon studio with her work and story being featured on
(03:56):
New York Times.
What an honor, a neurosurgeon and an artist.
Nothing can get better than that.
I hope you enjoyed today's episode and I hope you have a great rest of the day and a happy
new year.
I hope this one is as marvelous and as great and as amazing and as fulfilling for you as
(04:16):
it would be for me.
Let's manifest it.
Hi, Doc.
Hey, how are you?
Good.
Thank you so much for joining me tonight.
Well, thanks for asking me.
It's a pleasure to talk to you.
Oh my gosh, it's such an honor.
Are you in New York?
No, I'm actually in Pacific, somewhere in the Pacific Ocean.
(04:40):
I'm so jealous.
I escaped the nor'easter, luckily.
Yeah, we had some snow yesterday, so I'm so jealous.
Again, thank you so much for being with me tonight.
I am such a huge fan of your work and of your story and everything that you do.
So thank you so much for joining me on my platform.
(05:01):
You could first please introduce yourself to everybody.
Okay, hi.
I'm Doc Ambidexter or Kathryn Ko, and I'm an ordinary brain surgeon.
And I also do art, and I'm originally from Honolulu.
I went to medical school at the University of Hawaii, and then I did my neurosurgery
(05:21):
residency at Mount Sinai, and I did a fellowship at the University of Washington in cerebrovascular
surgery and research.
And then when my career, about mid-career, I decided to get a master's of fine art in
painting with an emphasis on medical themes.
And so that's really, I've kind of combined both careers now.
(05:42):
I don't really see much of a difference between the brush and the scalpel.
It's sort of the same.
And also, you know, I'm biracial.
And so I'm so old that I was biracial before the term came up.
Yes, I'm actually Korean and Irish, and so that's kind of an important theme for me also
(06:02):
in knowing intimately two different cultures, having two different perspectives on things,
and utilizing them in my journey to the best of my ability.
So yeah, that's how I got to.
And then when I did my residency at Mount Sinai in New York City, I decided to stay.
And partly I stayed because I had a really good job offer.
(06:23):
I started working for Cornell, the Department of Neuroscience at Cornell University.
I did that for a couple of years.
And so I stayed in New York, but I also then decided, yeah, it's a really good art scene.
And I sort of had a kernel of an idea that I might want to go do something in the arts.
And so I sort of, you know, stuck around.
(06:43):
It turned out to be a pretty good idea.
So working in New York City is very competitive, as you know, Chris, you know.
Yeah, I'm glad that I did that.
And now I'm sort of, you know, my career is sort of 30 years now.
And so it might soon be time to turn to the page and do something new.
We'll see.
(07:04):
Yeah, I mean, there's nothing ordinary about you.
I look up to you so greatly.
I wanted to ask though, where did that inspiration for medicine come from?
Is there like a family member, a friend, a personal experience?
Well, you know, my mother had polio and I wrote about this story called The Wound Whisperer
(07:26):
because my mother got polio just before the vaccine came out.
And so my whole life was sort of geared toward disability, you know, because when you're
a child and your mother has difficulty moving and falls and things like that, you're very
aware.
I don't know.
That's the inspiration.
I always loved science too though.
So I was going to do something in science no matter what it was, whether it was, so
(07:49):
I graduated in zoology.
So I had initially interested in animal medicine and God bless the veterinarians.
I admire them so much, but I migrated over to human, the human side about my third year
of college.
And then, but I did graduate in zoology.
So technically speaking, I could work at a zoo.
(08:13):
So working with different types of animals, right?
Second career, right?
Yeah.
I mean, my inspiration for healthcare also came from my mom, not because of the disease
aspect, but she was a nurse.
She actually just retired.
She's been a nurse for 30 years.
So also ever since as a kid, I was like, yeah, I think I want to do something within taking
(08:34):
care of people as well.
Yeah.
I saw that post about your mother and that she had recently retired and, you know, give
her a hug for me because the nursing staff and the physician assistant staff and everybody
down to even the people that clean the OAR.
I mean, I mean the work they do and sometimes they don't get that acknowledgement, but some
(08:57):
of my favorite people.
I remember when I first started, I came from Honolulu and I ended up at Coney Island hospital.
That's where I did my internship in Brooklyn.
And I remember the first person who was kind to me was the janitor and she just, yeah,
she just, I mean, she was amazing and I never forgot her and she was cleaning and she was
(09:20):
the one that looked up and she said, you know, having a hard night.
And I said, yeah.
And she was encouraging.
So yeah, everybody, the healthcare, anybody in the hospital, sometimes you have to just
sit and wonder and thank them for what they do.
Yeah.
I mean, I worked throughout the whole COVID-19, like the epicenter in 2020 in New York and
(09:42):
you know how hard like New York city was hit in, it was a March, April of 2020.
And I mean, just also props to, we always say, I mean, my coworkers, like the janitors,
the environmental staff who would go in and clean the rooms and we had no idea what was
going on in the air.
Oh yeah.
I mean, that COVID period in New York city was, you know, I'm still thinking about how
(10:08):
to recover from it both physically and also emotionally.
It was such a, it's such an incredible experience, you know?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I've seen how much of a toll it's brought on so many healthcare workers, especially
physicians as well.
But if you like the life of a physician is a life of many tolls, right?
(10:28):
I mean, it's just such a long and arduous road from school and training and exams.
And I feel like the education learning never stops, especially for you and your surgery.
I guess it's a very standardized thing where there's like so much sacrifices, right?
A lot of things that you have to give up, potential money that you had to give up with
(10:50):
student loans or the years that you're in the residency and you're incurring, you know,
interest to any loans that you've gotten, missed parties, missed family occasions.
Do you have any regrets going through at all now that you have been practicing?
No, I'm glad I did it.
I wish the system would change though, that number one, the medical students wouldn't
(11:14):
have that huge financial burden on their backs when they get out because it's really stressful
to have to own six figures, you know?
I didn't come from, I paid for my own school.
I went to public school all the way and I took loans and everything like that.
My family could not give anything.
(11:34):
And so I know how it feels.
Of course, during my time, the rates were much lower, but yeah, that's one thing.
I wish the system would change.
I wish it's such a long process.
For me, it was 16 years before I could, you know, hang out my shingle.
So, you know, you miss a lot of your growing up.
(11:57):
And so when you're in the hospital day in, day out, and in the operating room day in,
day out, sometimes your emotional maturity doesn't keep up with your peers who are, you
know, outside doing other jobs, nine to five, no weekends.
And so I think that's part of, I think if I hadn't gone into art, which shows me a different
(12:19):
way of thinking and looking at the world, you know, maybe I would have some regrets
or some, I would admit, but I think, you know, art really saved me.
And because it made me see something in the quiet of my studio, there's something about
being in a studio and you're painting maybe some idea that you've operated on, some concept,
(12:44):
some narrative that gives you insight and profound thought that, you know, in the hospital
when you're moving and you're walking around and somebody's, a patient is crashing, you're
focused on trying to fix the problem.
But in the art studio, you can focus on what you've been through, what that family's been
(13:05):
through, what the patient is going through.
And it gives you a deeper sense of responsibility and gratitude that you've chosen this field.
Because the gratitude can get lost when you're tired, when you're under stress and you forget
why you're in the field.
So, you know, being an artist, I think really, really helped me.
(13:27):
And I'm just glad I did it.
I didn't know I was an artist until late in my career, very late.
One of the things too is you're surprising that things may bubble up in your life that
surprise you, that you never knew you had inside of you until one day you wake up and
you just say, huh, you know, this is who I am.
(13:50):
This is really who I am.
And I think people would be shocked if they knew me in medical school to find out I was
an artist, you know.
Yeah, I mean, I think your art too, like the things that you paint, it's very intentional.
And you know, I have read a lot of your excerpts in your book.
I noticed how very intentional you are with everything that you have done, dog.
(14:14):
I mean, you even wrote a book called The Survival Bible for Women in Medicine, I think in 1998.
And you know, I think that's emanating from your pictures, again, being intentional to
writing a book like this, like a survival guide.
I wanted to know what was your experiences as a woman in medicine, either in school or
(14:35):
in training that led you to write a book like that?
Well, you know, the Survival Bible for Women in Medicine, this is how long ago it was written.
I wrote it.
So I finished residency in 1991, but I actually wrote really quick.
(14:57):
I wrote it like in 92, 93, but it took some time to get published.
And because it was one of the first books by a woman in medicine for women in medicine,
and it's not just doctors, it's all women who are, you know, physicians, nurses, nurses,
things like that.
It's all women in medicine.
And it is geared toward the presidency doctors thing.
(15:18):
And I didn't have women around me in residency.
And the ones that I did, we were kind of isolated.
And so it was kind of like my love note, something I just wanted to give the women that I couldn't
directly touch or communicate with because the neurosurgery at that time, very isolated.
(15:39):
So I was, I literally hand wrote it.
And I, there was, and it got published.
And it's so long ago now, but I finally converted it into a doc, doc doc, Microsoft doc doc.
So I'm going to update it.
And it's probably going to be called either daughter of survival Bible, like daughter
(16:00):
of Frankenstein or granddaughter.
I want to just publish it online and then people can read it.
But it'll be updated.
One of the funny things in that book was I had a recipe, you know, I was cooking during
those days.
I had a recipe for fried rice.
That's the Kathryn Ko-fried rice recipe.
(16:26):
But I'm a vegetarian now.
I wasn't then.
So that definitely has to be updated.
Yeah.
I love it.
Yeah.
I mean, I guess from the time that you were writing that book, I mean, I can't imagine
how isolated it was for especially in neurosurgery.
I mean, we know the statistics when it comes to women in surgery specifically, right.
(16:47):
And even more to so specialties in surgery, like neurosurgery, orthopedic surgery.
Are there things that you have seen throughout the years that still needs to change until
now for women, especially female physicians, whether it's residents or attendings?
Yeah.
I think it has, of course, it's much better than when I went, when I went through the
(17:12):
system.
But I think having women, having women go through the female life cycle, I think that
helps the women that come afterwards.
And just the fact that a female is there gives the predominant culture, which is which during
my time as a male is a predominant culture, the idea that women can be there and everything
(17:37):
that the males do.
When I was there, you know, the problem with surgery, though, is it's a physical thing.
Yeah, of course, you know, you have to understand everything and a lot of thinking, a lot of
studying, but it's physical.
And so when I was there, the tools were for men.
So it's as good as Serena Williams is using one of the males rackets to play ball.
(18:02):
So that was something that I don't think any of my professors had any notion of that, you
know, that females approach surgery, you know, there's a size difference, there's a strength
difference, males approach surgery differently and the tools, the hand size.
And that's something that I kind of had to work through myself.
And in fact, after residency, I ended up using almost none of the tools that I had bought
(18:29):
to use because they just didn't fit my hand well.
And so it took a while.
And that's, that's some of the things when you have women around you teaching you, they
have the same skill set.
And I remember my best assistants during surgery when I was, when I became an attendant, all
these women, they were like absolutely the best assistants.
(18:50):
Of course, there was some really good male assistants, but in general, there's nothing
like having doing surgery and having a female, a woman colleague across the field from you.
Such a sense of comfort.
Yeah.
And that's an important thing.
But I hope the residencies have matured to realize that, you know, women bring a lot
(19:13):
of another perspective to the field and that it's definitely not going back.
Yeah.
I mean, we do have no choice but to plow forward.
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(22:37):
I guess also throughout the years, Doc, you've probably seen so many brokenness within the
healthcare system, for sure.
Like very systemic flaws and errors.
And I guess COVID has exposed a lot of those brokenness into the light, especially into
the media, right?
Let's say a student somewhere in the world wants to pursue medicine, but is afraid of
(23:04):
the daunting brokenness again in the system and is asking if it's still worth it to pursue
medicine with all of your experience and all that you have seen, I guess, with your patient
experiences and all that.
Do you think it's still worth it to enter medicine in a time like this?
Yeah, I do.
I think that it's one of the fields where you get paid to do good.
(23:29):
So I think if you really like science and you like medicine and you have a hankering
for service, you cannot beat the feeling you get from making a difference in somebody's
life.
Even if they don't thank you, it's still something that rises above money.
(23:51):
It rises above almost everything.
And so that part, you have to have that feeling and you have to have that desire that something
like that would make your life fulfilling.
It's the same thing with art.
When someone looks at one of my art pieces and they get, and it somehow ministerially
(24:13):
changes their outlook on something, it has deep, profound meaning for me.
Medicine is like that too, in that it can really have an impact on that person's life.
And so if you want to leave some kind of a trace on this earth, that is a really, really
(24:36):
good avenue.
I just wish that they would cut the time down so that people wouldn't have to go through
16 years to become a neurosurgeon.
And I want the people to be more accepting of having outside lifestyles, for example,
some other stuff, some other things.
I think one of my messages in medicine is that you can do multiple things.
(25:02):
Don't ever be pushed into the idea that you have to just do medicine.
I remember when I was interviewing neurosurgery years ago, I told one of the guys, I was interviewing
with one of the professors and I said, well, you know, he said, what are you?
And I said, I'm very active.
I'm a runner.
And he goes, well, you won't run anymore.
And so that attitude, well, you know, listen, buddy, I ran, I ran, I did, you know, so that
(25:28):
attitude is, and he should have told me and said, well, you won't run anymore.
He should have said, you know what, just go for everything you can possibly do and be
a neurosurgeon.
Be an artist and be this and be a mother and be this and be this.
So you know, that's the attitude that I want in my professors and people that follow me.
(25:51):
I want them to be inclusive of different perspectives and what anybody, you know, the more off the
rails you are, the more you bring to the profession.
That thinking was never there.
They used to say, you've got to all be the same.
You know, you've got to all be the same.
You've got to be the same gender, the same this, same that.
(26:14):
No, the more different you are, the higher the program is, the higher the whole message
is.
So that's just one of my things.
And I think that comes from being biracial is that, you know, you're looking at things
you kind of don't really fit in one way or the other.
And you're kind of watching this, watching that and take the best.
(26:35):
It reminds me of the talent that Obama had by being biracial.
He had a similar perspective on things that I thought was very unique.
Yeah, yeah, I super agree, Doug.
I mean, I think they're also seeing a new generation of doctors, right?
And also other health care workers where it's like, oh, you know, I'm a doctor, but I'm
(26:56):
also a singer and also a dancer.
I'm also a this and a that, right?
I feel like the pool of students and the residents are becoming more diversified, not just when
it comes to racism, but we're seeing I think here in social media, especially on TikTok,
right?
We see so many talented people.
And before you know it, they're actually a surgeon.
(27:16):
They're actually this and that too.
So I agree with that.
And one of my mentors, who's also an attending physician, she was saying how she's so excited
for the next generation of physicians to come in, where brings more to the table when it
comes to experiences and hobbies and other activities and stuff like that.
(27:36):
I think your generation, the generation that you encompass, really makes some amazing changes.
I do think that healthcare should be free.
And I don't think anybody should have to go into debt to save their life or make their
life better.
And so I think that that is coming and COVID may have had a little bit to do with that.
(27:58):
So yeah, so one of the things I've done with COVID is that when the government wants to
do something, they do it.
Free tests, free vaccines, and so well organized.
So I'm hopeful that by the time you reach my age, things will have really changed so
that most of my career was done in socioeconomically challenged areas.
(28:22):
I worked a lot at Harlem Hospital.
I've also worked in the South Bronx and it's such an incredible experience to see what
people in those communities have to go through to get good healthcare.
And I would not change that experience for any IVD or any highfalutin beautiful hospital.
(28:47):
I would rather work in those types of environments because it made me a better person.
And there's no way to teach that except to do it.
Yeah, I mean, I also rotated at Harlem Hospital during my clinicals in nursing school and
a lot of the city hospitals here in New York too, in Woodhall and Bellevue.
And I think it's in those populations and areas where you're right, Doc, you really
(29:09):
see this fragility of the human condition where it's like, this is healthcare, this
is medicine, right?
This is the crux of it all.
And I actually pretty agree with that.
And essentially, I wanted to ask why neurosurgery?
What led you to this specialty as opposed to other things?
Well, basically, I was an athlete my whole life.
(29:33):
So I wanted to do something physical, right?
That puts me in the surgical category.
And brain really, it's just plain and simple because one of my goals before was to try
to understand the human brain.
And at this point in my life, I realized that that was pretty naive.
(29:56):
And I should have tried to understand outer space.
Because the brain is just like an unfolding box.
You can never get to the end of it.
And we probably are at our infancy in terms of understanding the depth of complexity of
the human brain.
But basically, I went in because I thought I was going to go into OBGYN.
(30:17):
And then when we did neuroanatomy, I just said, wait a minute.
Okay.
There we go.
Hold on.
I told myself, hold on.
I think I'm going to study this organ.
But I have the best OBGYN ever.
So, you know, one of the things I wanted to tell you is when I first decided to branch
(30:40):
off into art, I was embarrassed to tell my colleagues that I was going to art.
Because at that point, it was mid-career, I was chief at a hospital, a level one trauma
hospital for neurosurgery in the Bronx.
And I didn't want to tell anybody because I thought they would judge me.
But once they saw my art, they actually embraced it.
(31:03):
So sometimes you think you're doing something a little bit outside the mainstream and it's
odd.
And then, I don't know, for some reason, sometimes people just, instead of like saying, you know,
what are you doing?
What are you wasting?
They embrace it.
And yeah, so just do whatever is in your heart and bring it to the field and don't worry
(31:27):
about what they are going to say because probably they'll celebrate you.
Yeah.
And I love also how you said that, I mean, your colleagues, once they saw your art, it's
like, yes, full support.
I know you said that your artistic love, you know, came in the middle of your journey.
But when you were a kid, did you ever already like Jolie?
(31:48):
Did you realize?
No, I did not.
I didn't start until about 15 years ago.
As well as in my 40s, when I really started, I was taking a few classes for, you know,
you don't know why you do stuff, but it comes from something deep inside, like there's a
little kernel.
(32:09):
And so I said, Oh, let me sign up for this art class at the Y. Right.
And I miss half of them because of surgery or emergency.
And I was like, you know, I was looking at my pieces and I was saying, you're terrible.
It's so bad.
And I said, if you really want to sing, you've got to go to formal school.
And so at that point, you know, I made a decision.
(32:30):
I said, you know, I think it's giving me something.
I couldn't even verbalize what comfort or solace or refuge that art was giving me.
But I realized that I had after art school, that I had something that kind of expunged
onto the canvas.
And then, you know, dealing with the canvas and the narrative, it made my neurosurgery
(32:52):
career better.
Yeah.
It's like, really, you know, when you, you think, Oh, you know, you're going out, you're
going outside the lines, you know, you're doing one thing that nobody else is doing.
And it's kind of odd.
No, no, actually it's, it's, it's something you need.
Yeah.
And it's surprising.
It comes up.
Yeah, you know, like there's a lot of my colleagues, a few of my colleagues who said, you know,
(33:13):
when I retire, I'm going to go into art and you know, I just kind of just said, Oh, okay.
But in reality, in reality, if it's burning inside of you, don't wait.
Go and do it.
Like just somehow find a way to do a little bit of it.
Because you know, like they say, Oh, I'm going to do it when I retire.
(33:35):
You know, when you retire, it's true.
Yeah.
I mean, also like things come up, like who imagined this pandemic to come up, right?
Like, yeah, things are so unexpected.
You're right.
Like we should just really go for it.
And you went for your MFA, right?
And what led to that decision of, Oh, actually I'm going to do like formal studies as opposed
(33:57):
to just like, I'm just going to paint as a passion.
Because I was terrible.
I was embarrassed when I was at the Y, I would like hide my canvas.
So no one would see it.
It was a disaster.
So I realized it's like pre-med.
I needed the pre-med classes to like, you know, how does color work here?
(34:19):
How does value work?
How does composition?
And it was like almost a whole different language compared to neurosurgery and medicine.
It took me basically three and a half years to get through school and medicine was four
years and it was expensive to become an artist.
And I felt really like, you know, from the art side, you know, a lot of my colleagues
(34:42):
who paint way better than I am, they're going to have a hard time finding jobs in art itself.
But it was funny because here's a little funny story.
So I was in the operating room one day.
I had my residency.
I was chief resident and one of the mean professors stood at the door and yelled, you hold the
(35:04):
cranial drill like a girl.
And I just, I was like, I was like thinking to myself, what am I crappy?
You know, what, you know, why, why, what's wrong with my hands?
You know, why am I, you know, why?
You know, in your mind, it was a mean move.
It was a mean move.
He meant it mean.
And then I said, you know, what the hell, you know, what's, what's going on?
(35:27):
But I realized, well, how else am I supposed to hold a goddamn cranial drill?
I'm a girl, you know, how am I supposed to hold it?
Like a, you know, and so, and so then I said to myself, I said, took a few years to like
get over that fact because he means it mean, but if I had been a little bit more composed
and not a resident and he hadn't been such a high guy, I would have said to him, how
(35:52):
do you expect me to hold, I would have come back at him, but I didn't, I just held it
inside and it bothered me for many years.
And then I went to art school and then the art professor goes, ah, you paint like a girl.
But I had a big come back then.
That was many years later.
And I said, yeah, well, how else do you expect me to paint?
(36:15):
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(40:05):
Dr. Ko and then the painter Dr. Ko. It seems like it really bleeds into each other for you in your life.
How does neurosurgery help your role and your work as a painter and vice versa?
Painters and neurosurgeon. Well they bleed into each other. They literally bleed into each other.
(40:26):
And I'm always trying to, you know some episode that I've had in the hospital that I want to
investigate a little bit more. I will take it to the canvas. I will kind of analyze it, see what
my feelings were, try to see what the patient had felt. Although none of them are really patients,
(40:48):
they're sort of a conglomerate of different ideas and patients. They're not really portraits of
people. Although some of them look like portraits, it's not nobody in particular. And I just try to
see what was the tension, what was the feeling, what was the passion at that particular moment.
And what I'm trying to do in my art is capture the passion of that particular moment that I felt and
(41:12):
try to have the lay people that are not in medicine when they look at the art to try to get something
from it. And also to try to understand what medical professionals go through on a different
level. You know we can write about it and we can talk about it. But there's something about a visual
image that will stop a person not in medicine cold if it hits them. And so that's what I'm going
(41:39):
after. I'm going after the fact that you know medicine is a whole different way of looking at
life and that you know we're dealing with such critical issues. You know and also the people want
them to relate to their own experiences, some of the people that look at the art. And I think
probably the artists that I went to school with were most interested in medical art, most interested
(42:03):
in it. They found it fascinating. And so I think it does resonate beyond the medical profession,
some of my pieces. And that's what I'm going through. I also do cartooning too. But I think
humor is a good way to elucidate a bad experience. Instead of saying like oh you know this person
(42:23):
said such a mean thing to me and was so mean and this and that. I think if you can make it funny,
it gets your idea across without kind of being negative. Yeah so I use a lot of my cartooning
is very autobiographical. And yeah and there's a lot of different and I try to anyway it's more
(42:44):
autobiographical than my actual fine painting. So the cartooning has a lot to do with what I've
gone through. But presented in a way that's kind of funny. Yeah my next question was going to be as
a painter if your life was a snapshot what would your painting look like? Well it would probably be
(43:04):
a painting of the brain. I don't think I would even have a face there. It'd probably be just the brain
because I think that I don't know for some reason I'm obsessed with it. Which is a real good thing if
you're a brain surgeon right? It would have something to do with my profound esteem and just
(43:27):
incredible whatever it is for the brain. That being from Hawaii and just some of the things I've
gone through. I think that would be really autobiographical. Plus you know hoping that
the women that follow me and have it easier and that I'm grateful to the women that went before me
saving the way through that wilderness. And so yeah so that's kind of like what I am you know
(43:53):
interested in is pushing females forward. Yeah I'm very curious you know you said earlier that
there's just no limits to how much we can understand the brain with how complex or maybe
even over complex it is. Was there ever and this might be hard to answer because there might be
(44:13):
many different points but was there ever a point whether either during surgery or I don't know
post-surgical care where you were just like baffled about an aspect of the human brain that
you were so surprised by? Oh every day. Yeah I just I don't you know there's the thing that
(44:35):
you know I was working at as I said level many level one trauma centers and the intensity of
the injuries and the trauma that people have patients have undergone and the ability to
recover from it is fascinating to me even even strokes. Yeah I just think that you know the
(44:57):
traumatic injuries that I've seen and the results and people fighting to come back you know makes
me admire the brain even more and realizes the power of the human brain. I don't really think
we've tapped into the full power or the full potential of what the human brain is capable
(45:18):
of doing particularly with creativity particularly with the idea of using creativity to solve
problems instead of resulting to aggression and so I do think that having been an artist and a
neurosurgeon is that I am really confident when I have an issue in the operating room that creativity
(45:45):
will solve. I am totally confident if there's anything that I'm confident in besides you know
my neurosurgical skills is creativity and I do think that I can solve a problem creatively
in a kind and truthful way. I think creativity is really the key to moving on to the next level.
(46:07):
How do you feel about that? Yeah I mean I'm just in awe of everything that you have said. Yeah
I think creativity is like a boat in the middle of an ocean that you don't know the dimensions to
right. The fact that everyone is different from each other like someone's creative response to
a problem will be so different from a person next to me right and I wonder what the results
(46:33):
of the fusion of different creativities would be in a single room in a very dire moment which I guess
you've seen the OR right? I mean your brain is not the only brain that's working the OR right?
There's I don't know first assist there or the scrub techs or the nurses. I mean I can't imagine
like in times of emergency how much is like creativity is there to oh maybe this is what
(46:57):
we can do right doc? Yeah yeah because things come up that you didn't learn in emergency and so you
have to somehow you know split second in neurosurgery. Neurosurgery, cardiac surgery, airway,
transplant surgery you know things happen that you didn't train for and you didn't expect and
(47:19):
you have to figure out you have to first of all calm down. I mean once you just have to lower
your everything has to lower and you have to like go into this thing where you don't hear anybody
you're just you're just so focused like a laser on this situation and you have very limited time
to solve the problem and so those things take a few years to learn and to gain confidence but you
(47:46):
do get it you do get it. Yeah it's a it's a hard thing you know that's the kind of thing they don't
really teach is uh you know what to do in that type of situation except that you hope that you
have some experience or you've seen something or you come up with some idea that can solve the problem
it doesn't happen that often um it tends to happen to me uh in middle of the night
(48:09):
to the clock in the morning when you're at a hospital that you know may or may not have had
experience with this type of thing but luckily luckily i've been able to move through those
type of things in a successful way. Yeah i can't let you go without asking you about being ambidextrous
how helpful is that during surgery or painting? So when you're listening to the lectures if you do
(48:36):
write notes i say are you right-handed? I'm right-handed. Switch to your left hand. I couldn't
stay awake in medical school. I just couldn't stay awake. I couldn't stay out of the lectures.
I don't know what to do. I moved too much so sitting in a chair was not good for me and so you know
(48:56):
lectures and so back then we wrote we wrote so i just yeah right i just one day i just said
someone i'm gonna try this i switched hands in medical school and started and so then i could
stay up because i was like i'm concentrating so hard trying to write with the left hand
(49:16):
and then after a period of time i became ambidextrous and i'll tell you something
boy surgical speed to be able to use the tools you know both hands really quickly very dextrous
and in art i switch off between i do a lot of abstract painting with my left hand and regular
painting with the right if i did anything in my life to become ambidextrous that was the best tool
(49:43):
and the hardest by the way was harder to become ambidextrous than it was to become a brain surgeon
can you believe that it should be its own specialty yeah when you graduate you could have like an
ambidextrous fellowship it should be like a new specialty or a new fellowship in surgeries
(50:05):
right right you know unfortunately the tools are made for right-handed the needle holder and so
you have to ask the scrub tech load for the left hand and so a little bit you know it's a little
bit like the scissors right this is just a right a little bit different but yes the first thing
i did i think that helped my creativity a lot i think that solved my creativity yeah for sure
(50:30):
you know we always say that time is brain and it's like in hindsight you are an extender of
people's times the work you do as a neurosurgeon i mean i could never imagine how stressful it could
be i mean people's like lives and extension potential extension of this literally in your
hands and a very small fraction of measurements right how do you decompress out of work after
(50:59):
a long day or just a stressful and tiring day other than the painting that i know that you do
that you do for passion well when you're in surgery every move you make and every breath that you
take in the or you're thinking about that patient is just just are and you are you're so focused and
(51:22):
hoping that your best that day is enough but coming out of the or when you realize that the
surgery went well and you're closing when i say closing you're stitching the wound closed you're
putting the dressing on i just what i what i i had several bad habits which were going to the bending
(51:45):
machines i mean you can't that's terrible you deserve it that was a really bad habit that was
terrible and i wrote about that too because i had everybody in the hospital so but i kind of
(52:07):
i think i think mark i think just thinking about what i got what i've gone through and how i can
consider lives that on a two-dimensional surface helped me more than anything else it kind of
allowed me to figure out a way through that stress and i think that's important for everybody
(52:28):
going to a field of medicine like medicine or anything high stress field is figuring out a way
that you can take your career with you and kind of figure out how you can live with it and in a
meaningful and smooth way because if you don't and you sort of just leave it there i don't know the
(52:49):
thoughts just it just adds up and so yeah stressful situations are in your surgery extremely stressful
extremely there's no there's no getting around that yeah there's no no getting around that yeah
i can't imagine uh dr poe it is such a privilege and honor to have
(53:11):
talked to you tonight and heard your journey and all of your funny stories again thank you so much
for spending today to speak to me today i just have this like revitalized passion in me to give
my best and my all for patients and my future patients so thank you thank you so so much
(53:33):
so much thank you so much chris for having me it's just been it's been so much fun and you only get
funny stories when you get to be as old as i am i am ready please keep in touch and i want to know
what happens to you okay yes doc thank you so much have a good day there okay bye
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