Cutting Up Fruits with Asian Mental Health Project and Anise Health

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hi friends, happy Friday, hope you're all doing well.

(00:07):
I know we took a week's break from our podcast series, but I've been so busy the past couple
of weeks.
My mom is visiting from the Philippines, nursing work was so busy, social media work was so
busy, and I just needed a breather from all the editing preparation I allowed for the
podcast.
Though, please believe me when I say that I still love you all.

(00:29):
I just needed a rest, and I took it because I believe that it's so important to listen
to what your mind and body need.
If we need rest, we should take it.
If we need a mental health day, we should definitely take it.
I, for sure, still have to remind myself of this constantly.
Sometimes I feel guilty resting or not doing anything, though I know I shouldn't.

(00:51):
I think our society has wired our brains to be pure work and hustle, but sometimes we
just need to slow down, rest, and take a break.
Especially as an Asian American, this type of constant work mindset and behavior has
been instilled in me since a child, and I know all my fellow Asians can understand and relate.
I am nitpicking on my heritage specifically because this is the crux of today's podcast

(01:14):
episode.
Asian mental health.
A concept that you may call an irony, generations ago, because they were once antithesis.
It's sad to say, but it is only recently that we have seen Asians more open to the conversation
about mental health and seeking help.
And even now, we still see a lot of stigma and sensitivity to these ideas.

(01:35):
In fact, data from the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration shows
that in 2021, 25% of Asian American adults with a mental illness reported receiving mental
health services, compared to 52% of white adults.
Another data shows that the Asians were 2.25 times more likely to report mental health

(01:56):
treatments as ineffective.
What is it about the Asian and Asian American community?
Their approachability and response to mental health and mental health care is lower than
other demographics.
Is it mistrust?
Is it disbelief in the services themselves?
Or can it be fear and shame to partake in this conversation and actually receive help?
As an Asian American myself, I know first hand the stigma and taboo placed on these

(02:20):
discussions about raw emotions of heart and grief, mental illnesses, seeking professional
help and just going against the grain in such a collectivist culture.
I think being a nurse and having patients of Asian descent also have shown me the grander
picture of how mental health is truly such a taboo topic in their community.
Or just being a son to an Asian parent.

(02:40):
Is it a universal Asian experience that our parents cut off roots for us instead of sitting
sorry after a fight?
Well in today's episode, I am so honored to introduce you to three dear friends who
tackle this concept and this reality of mental health and mental health care for our Asian
community.
We talk about it all, racism and microaggression, intergenerational trauma, raw emotions of

(03:04):
grief and hurt and anger and pain, the model minority myth and so much more.
Carrie Zhang is the founder of the Asian Mental Health Project, a nonprofit organization that
provides educational resources and community care initiatives to help destigmatize mental
health and make it more accessible for the pan-Asian community through social media,

(03:25):
multimedia content creation and community events.
And we have Alice Zhang, CEO and Nisha Desai, COO, the co-founders of Anise Health, an online
holistic mental health service for the Asian community that incorporates cultural stressors
into personalized treatments.
Alice and Nisha were co-peoples at Harvard Business School for their MBA, where they

(03:45):
signed and agreed on the importance of culturally responsive providers and an integrated approach
to executing data-driven treatment for Asian clients.
Today's topic is so important to me and I hope to you too.
I hope you get to learn a lot of things.
Their hearts are softened and their eyes are opened to these conversations.

(04:08):
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(05:14):
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(05:37):
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(06:00):
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(06:44):
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(07:30):
Oh my gosh, AAPI Heritage Month was the best of times, it's the worst of times.
It is the busiest of times.
I think it took me until now to recover from AAPI.
I know, I'm like we're in August already, I'm so tired.
I know, but I know you just got off a meeting.
So thank you so much for joining me today.
If you could just first please introduce yourself to everybody who may not know.

(07:54):
Yeah, hi everybody.
My name is Carrie.
I am the founder and executive director of the Asian Mental Health Project and I'm really,
really excited to be here.
Yes, yes.
You know, I first heard about Carrie and Asian Mental Health Project because they did a collaboration
with Chloe, I think, a couple of years ago and Clara, who's a dear friend of mine.

(08:14):
And so just to introduce you, I started this IG Live series, podcast series in the beginning,
mostly for clinicians, given that I'm a nurse myself and talking about misinformation within
healthcare.
And then I realized, wait, there's so much more to just misinformation in healthcare,
right?
There's misinformation everywhere and I think misinformation costs a lot of lives and costs

(08:38):
a lot of emotions, right?
So over time I started realizing, wait, we have to talk about mental health.
It's such an important topic and you do a great job of this and specifically for our
community, right?
For Asian Americans and also Pacific Islanders.
I wanted to first know, like, why is mental health so important to you that it led you

(08:59):
to creating Asian Mental Health Project?
Yeah, thank you so much for, you know, having this.
Firstly, like, I think your Friends of Friends podcast is so good and I'm just really grateful
to be here.
But I mean, why it is so important to me is because, you know, mental health is something
we live through every single day.
So long as you are, you know, a living, breathing creature, you are dealing with mental health

(09:21):
on a day-to-day basis.
So it's very important to me because the particular highlight around it of Asian mental health
is particular to me because, you know, there's such a stigma around mental health care and
mental health as a general topic.
When I grew up and I didn't grow up being able to talk about mental health and I think
as I grew up and grew older and did receive mental health care, I realized so much of

(09:44):
it had to do with the way that I was raised and, you know, our upbringing and childhood
experience which is undoubtedly informed by the lens of being Asian American in my case.
So I think that's why it's so important to have that culturally specific lens of care
there and yeah.
Yeah, super agree with all of that.
I love what you said that as long as you're living, breathing, here and being, you know,

(10:06):
mental health is something that affects all of us and something that should be talked
about with everyone, right?
But I also love what you said, the specific lens, right, when it comes to Asian Americans
and Pacific Islanders, there's definitely, like, also mental health and experiences and
trauma and all of those conversations.
There's something that's also culturally specific, like you mentioned, and race based, right?

(10:28):
For our community, do you think that there are actual mental health concerns or experiences
that can lead to trauma that are very specific to our community?
Yes, I think the studies right now are still very, you know, early on in sparse because
I feel like the field of mental health has, you know, previously been very like, you know,

(10:48):
it's a very Western perspective of things.
And I think recently, and not to say that these studies haven't existed, but our studies
around correlation between, you know, racism as a collective trauma and mental health,
as well as, you know, the impact of like colonialism and, you know, the impact of, you know, the
high pressure upbringing that a lot of Asian folks have, whether it is the, you know, culture

(11:11):
of work, you know, that, you know, adds a lot of pressure to, you know, Asian folks,
which is, you know, of course then brought overseas.
There's, you know, the concept of like the model minority myth and things like that.
You know, these are all sort of larger systems that impact the individual.
It's called the ecological systems model, which calls to the question of like, you as

(11:32):
an individual are impacted by, you know, micro systems, macro systems, all these sorts of
things, whether it is your immediate family and then what informs the family structure.
Well, that is, you know, overall societal norms, policies and things like that.
What informs that is, you know, the, you know, maybe globalized views of things and, you
know, there's just so much to unpack.

(11:53):
And it's important to acknowledge that your mental health is impacted by the system in
which you live and ecosystem in which you live.
So like things like climate that impact certain different regions can also impact you as an
individual.
Like, yeah, there's a lot to unpack there, but I hope that answers your question.
Yes, definitely.
I mean, you brought up so many great points and so many topics that's not really talked

(12:19):
about, right?
I attended an event, a beautiful event this Sunday in New York City, creating space, which
was just, I think until now I'm like really trying to let it all settle down with how
beautiful it is.
It was basically moderated by Dr. Jenny Wang, who's a psychologist and Rebecca was one of

(12:39):
the organizers who you know, and who I love.
And, you know, one of the great things that Dr. Wang said, right at the start of the event
was it was held in Barclays Center and there's like so many Asians just sitting down talking
about mental health.
Dr. Jenny Wang, in the very beginning of the event, she was like, I want you all to like

(13:00):
let this moment seep in.
Just look around you and she was like, think of the, was there ever a time in your life
where you saw so many Asian Americans, so many Asians in one place sitting down to talk
about mental health?
And honestly, that gave me goose bumps because when I thought about it, I was like, wait,
I don't think we've ever had this happen, right?
And it brings up the greater talk and issue or concept or whatever you may call it of.

(13:23):
There's something about the Asian American community where mental health is not really
talked about, right?
You can call it, I don't know, taboo or as you said earlier, stigmatized.
And you know, when things are not talked about, when we don't have conversations about certain
things, so much misinformation flourishes around it, right?
So much shame and guilt flourish from that, right?

(13:47):
It's like a fountain of so many things.
And hi to Rebecca joining, we're just talking about you.
Anyways, and we've seen this throughout generations of the Asian community where parents will
be like, we don't talk about those things, right? or many great things were brought up
during the event on Sunday where you're like, it's just something that's not talked about.
And I think this leads to the concept of trauma, right?

(14:08):
And sometimes trauma comes from things being repressed and not talked about, right?
And I think that you go on TikTok, one of the biggest topics right now amongst the Asian
community is the concept of generational trauma, right?
For you, what does this concept mean and how does it manifest, I guess, when you're talking
about generations and the younger generation, our generation, right?

(14:30):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, I think you bring up several really great points and you know, that, you know,
all these things do contribute to what we call trauma and trauma is, you know, some
sort of significant impact that affects your life and in this framework affects your mental
health.
The concept of generational trauma, and I do want to preface this by saying I'm not a mental
health professional myself.
I've just studied this through my work and things like that.

(14:51):
But, you know, generational trauma, the idea is that trauma is passed across generations.
So something that your great grandmother went through, whether it is through genetics, which
there has been, there's a concept called epigenetics, meaning that trauma changes your DNA, changes
the way that your body process things.
There's real like neurological physical impacts of trauma, whether it is physical trauma or

(15:13):
emotional trauma or, you know, somewhere along those lines.
And then it's passed forward through DNA.
And along with that, there's also, you know, cultural expectations and familial ways that,
you know, you were raised and taught that gets passed forward during generations, whether
it's through tradition and or culture or genetics, you know, there is generational impact, which
in turn can be generational trauma there.

(15:35):
The way that, you know, it comes up in conversation with mental health today is like, there's
a lot of desire to sort of unlearn these what we call like generational trauma, generational
cycles and things like that.
Because, you know, just as much as trauma can be passed down, it can also be reprogrammed.
You know, you can reprogram your DNA to be able to respond and heal from this trauma,

(16:00):
which, you know, takes a lot of work, I would like to say, you know, and I feel like what
is so special about this generation.
And I love that you're saying like, this is the first time this stuff is happening in
a lot of ways.
And it's very exciting, but very scary, because there can be a lot of misinformation.
But we do have to start somewhere and I feel very grateful to be in a generation where,

(16:20):
you know, these conversations are starting to happen.
The concept of unpacking, you know, how trauma is passed down is currently being studied.
And in turn, we can learn how to heal from that from those points as well.
So you know, it's twofold.
It's important to understand the impact of trauma and understand, you know, how you got
here today.
That's always like the main question that we try to answer with Asian mental health

(16:43):
projects is how did I get here?
Like what systems brought me here?
How did my family like what what happened so that I became?
Why am I the way that I am basically?
And then what can we learn from that to create, you know, collective healing or individual
healing from that as well?
Yeah, I feel like generational trauma and generational, you know, cycles and impact

(17:04):
is such a popular topic for Asian folks to especially because I think culturally we are
expected to honor our ancestral roots and things like that.
There's just so much of that.
And that can bring great pressure and expectation and stigma of like, oh, you know, I feel like
many of us probably heard folks who came from immigrant families of like, we didn't come

(17:26):
all the way here like your grandpa didn't, you know, suffer X, Y, and Z just so you could
get a B on this test.
Walk 15 miles to go to school.
Oh my god, I know.
I know.
I was like, does everybody have this story?
My dad's always like, I rode a donkey and I went over mountains to go to school.
And I was like, but like I have no clue.

(17:47):
I was like, I walked through rivers to go to elementary school.
I was like, oh, you walked.
Yeah.
And I feel like, you know, that's not to dismiss that.
But you know, that sort of like those teachings are passed down.
And that's that's, you know, generational, those are generational cycles, generational
trauma that's passed down.

(18:07):
So yeah, great.
Yeah, I love your answer to that.
And I think one of the best things that you said is trying to one, not just unpack all
of it, but trying to break a cycle.
Right.
You know, sad boy seasons, there's there's memes on Facebook where they're like, oh,
trust gets takes a long time to get built, but so quick to break it down.

(18:28):
Right.
I feel like it's kind of like, it's kind of that mood, right, where trauma can be easily
brought upon a person, especially in our community.
Right.
This is so collective.
It's like so contagious.
Right.
And I think that's where we feel inside is like felt throughout everybody.
And someone's experience, no matter how different it is, even though I didn't have to walk through
the rivers to go to elementary school.

(18:50):
Right.
Like all those things are passed down.
And you're right.
Expectations are set.
Comparison of I guess, hardships and difficulties are also set there.
Right.
And I think the next step is really trying to unpack all of that and breaking that cycle,
which again, it's not easy at all.
Right.

(19:10):
And I think if you have the conditions to build these things up, it's not going to be
easy to also unpack and break all of these cycles.
And I guess that's what Asian Mental Health Project seeks to do, right, is to educate
about it, right, and to advocate for people.
I wanted to know, being the founder and executive behind it, when did you start Asian Mental
Health Project and what was your reason for creating such an amazing community?

(19:33):
Thank you.
That's very kind.
I started this in around, officially it started in 2018 actually.
It's when the first idea came about.
And the reason why I started it quite frankly is because I was feeling really lost and like
lonely.
I myself had gone through a, you know, traumatic event that essentially sent me into the mental

(19:53):
health care through college.
And it was then that I realized that, you know, I had anxiety and PTSD and things like
that, that still impact me to this day.
But you know, after going, like I did not want to go to therapy.
Like I was, I was not, I was not ready for it.
I did like therapy and you know, went through like psychotherapy analysis and also just

(20:14):
like medication and things.
I did support groups.
And it was like a lot of mental health care all at once for someone who like truly didn't
believe in it back in the day.
Like there's stigma, yes, but it's also because it's called like mental health.
There's the belief that, you know, you can power through and control it all when really
it's okay to receive that kind of support.
So after having gone through that in college, I graduated and I was like, holy crap.

(20:36):
Like I feel like a lot of what I had gone through and what my friends have gone through
who are also, you know, identify as Asian, perhaps could have been mitigated earlier
had we had like the tools and vocabulary to discuss mental health.
And so I sort of set up on a, like a little bit of a search of like, I can't be the only
person who's experiencing this.
I know I'm not.
So let me just ask people.

(20:57):
So I like put up an Instagram post of like, Hey, I want to do this like multimedia project
around mental health.
Would anybody be interested in talking to me?
And again, by then it was, it was very like fresh.
So it caught wind a lot.
And I got to talk to, I think like over 60 individuals.
I like interviewed them talking about their experiences with mental health as Asian folks.

(21:18):
And everybody had very different individual stories, but like very similar key themes.
Everybody struggled with high stress, low self-esteem, people pleasing anxiety or anxious
tendencies and things like that, which are all again interconnected a lot of like, yeah,
like self-loathing, which was very, very interesting to me.
And I was like, wow, we all identify very differently, but we all experience these same

(21:42):
sorts of values and therefore impact of mental health conditions.
So from then it became like an Instagram account where I just like posted what I learned.
And then the pandemic hit and it was so scary being those, those beginning moments of the
pandemic.
And even now not only was, you know, where we all isolated, not only was this like mysterious

(22:03):
disease like going through, you know, the world, you know, Asian folks were being blamed
for it.
There was so much xenophobia and we, I really realized we needed a place to sort of turn
inward and unpack with one another.
So we started offering these virtual like peer to peer wellness groups, which we still
have to this day.
We have weekly wellness check-ins, which are just, you know, peer run groups that unpack,

(22:25):
you know, certain topics such as intergenerational trauma.
We try to bring in a mental health professional or wellness practitioner for those weekly
wellness check-ins and you know, we've opened up many groups since then, but it was really
at the beginning, just like a virtual space for us to all sit together and talk about
what it was like to be Asian in, you know, wherever you're at, it's open to anyone across
the globe.

(22:46):
And that just like built so much community and it made me realize we as people need to
gather, we as people in order to heal, you know, we cannot do it in isolation.
It kind of reminded the Carrie that started this, that felt very lonely that, you know,
healing is not in always just in individualized therapy or just it's not all in your own head.

(23:09):
You know, we need to come together as a community to provide resources for one another because
that's really the only way we are going to survive.
And so, yeah, so since then Asian Mental Health Project has become a nonprofit organization,
which is very exciting.
Yay, we've been able to offer mental health funding for individuals, which we're going
to launch again really soon.

(23:29):
We now have, I think, seven affinity groups and then we do, you know, in-person events
as well.
And, you know, hoping to expand more with partnerships and just what are my main focuses,
you know, can we work together with, you know, folks who have the same mission of, you know,
trying to provide accessible mental health resources.
And lately I've been unpacking, you know, our three words are like to educate, empower

(23:53):
and advocate and I've really unpacking the word empower because I feel like that can
be overused in a way or used in a way that's like not super intentional.
So I'm trying to unpack that word of like what does it mean to empower and I think that
means to get folks the resources and tools that they can in the most easy and accessible
way so that they would be able to prioritize their own healing and community healing as

(24:13):
well.
So, I'm not going to answer.
I love it.
I love it.
Yeah, I mean, I truly resonate with a lot of that.
I mean, especially in high school, I was going through so much anxiety and so panic attacks
and in my mind, it's always that question, right?
Is it just me?
Am I the only one who's going through this?
And it's really so powerful when you start to realize and see that you're not alone

(24:37):
and that there's one, there's people who are going through the same thing, two, that
there are professionals who are trained, right, to help you get through those times and three,
that there are, especially now as opposed to years ago, there's a lot of resources specifically
for your identity or the things that you go through.
Like we said earlier, many experiences when it comes to mental health and trauma are very

(24:58):
way specific or obviously community-based as well, right?
I wanted to share a tagline from your Instagram account, actually, of Asian Mental Health
Project where it says, making mental health more approachable.
So I'm reading from the bio, right?
And when we think of the word approachable, inherently, what it's trying to say that there's
some things that are not easy to approach, right?

(25:19):
And I think that's so true for the Asian community is mental health sometimes is, I mean, it's
unapproachable, right?
There's a lot of barriers, a lot of chasms and gaps.
What do you think for our community or, I guess, systemic, personal or individualized
chasm and barriers to mental health and how does Asian Mental Health Project seeks to

(25:39):
unite those divides?
Yeah.
Oh my God.
Firstly, that was an excellent and beautiful question.
Thank you so much.
Because approachability is really sort of where we, like as you mentioned before, we
focus on the education piece, you know, in simple terms, knowledge is power slash knowledge
is a tool for folks to aid their own healing.
So I mean, there are so many barriers to receiving mental health care.

(26:03):
One, you know, the main sort of thing right now is, well, let's dial it back to stigma,
like the barrier of like, first, even validating and approaching the desire and need for it
is really difficult because, you know, even though it is being more talked about now,
it is still a very scary and difficult thing because there is still a lot of shame attached
to, oh, I need help.

(26:23):
Like that's the basic thing, let alone I need help for my mental health problems and issues.
Like that is a very scary thing.
And the way to combat that, I think, is to normalize it more in just conversation, but
also not just talking about it to no end, but providing, you know, resources that folks
can pass along to others.
I think something that, you know, we encourage is that everybody learn more about how to

(26:46):
support your friends through mental health issues and crisis and things.
How do I hold space?
How do I communicate and how do I create an environment that is empathetic and compassionate
and nurturing?
And I think that is like a very first step in de-stigmatizing things is approaching with
more empathy.
So that's one.
Financial barriers are a very large issue.

(27:06):
You know, it is very expensive and the way health insurance works in this country and
the next, you know, like healthcare is an incredibly, I'm sure you would know very well,
a difficult thing to navigate.
Like it's not just being able to pay for it, but it's being able to have the tools to be
able to understand how to pay for it.
Like if I don't even know how I'm going to pay for this, like, you know, it's so difficult.

(27:28):
It's not straightforward.
It's hard to say what the solution is to that in a way that, you know, because policy has
so many layers to it.
But you know, one of the things is to talk about like what true options are there for
accessible mental health care.
Right, there is therapy, which is great and, you know, could be very, very useful for folks.
But there are also, you know, local community resources that, you know, are hopefully like

(27:52):
my call to action for folks is you're working in the spaces is to get involved into those
spaces and offer more community mental health care initiatives is to offer its own peer
support networks along with therapy, along with, you know, clinical psychology, all those
things, everything together, you know, contributes to mental health care, food, housing, things
like that.
So all things that impact our mental health and, you know, could use that community care

(28:15):
and support there.
But that being said, financial barriers are still very, very real and part of a larger
like economic issue as well.
And then, of course, I mean, I've covered financial, cultural.
Oh, and there's also like language barriers and things like that.
I feel like particularly with Asian folks, a lot of us are there are immigrants or come
from immigrant families or, you know, there's a lot of different ways that we can't communicate

(28:39):
how we feel or can't communicate mental health because the vocabulary either doesn't exist
or just hasn't been discussed.
So there are a lot of language barriers and generational barriers to of, you know, how
do we reach this sort of mutual understanding?
There are, of course, you know, political barriers and things like that.
There's just kind of a lot running in there.
And lots of, you know, we're in a mental health crisis right now, like truly, especially amongst

(29:04):
youth, but also, you know, across several generations that are, you know, senior generations
as well.
And so I feel like that there are a lot of barriers that, you know, just sort of prevent
us from being able to seek mental health, especially as demand gets higher.
You know, there are a lot of tools out there, but it's oftentimes not enough to meet the
current need.
So hopefully we are on a trajectory where mental health is more valued and therefore,

(29:28):
you know, more resources are available.
But right now we are at a bit of a resource deficit there.
And you know, it also calls into question like representation there.
You know, I feel like I am though in awe of a lot of like Asian mental health collective.
They have a database that specifically synthesizes API therapists.
Now for like psychology today, open path collective, these are all like resources of finding therapists.

(29:49):
There are ways to filter through race and ethnicity and things like that, or like cultural
background and specific needs.
But at the same time, it's like, well, it really shows you like there's more that we
need and we are on that path.
And I just am so grateful to any like health care provider and mental health provider,
all these things for providing those resources.
But you know, there's such high demand that it's hard.
The resources are scarce.

(30:09):
So yeah.
Yeah, super, super agree with all of that, that there's literally a lot against us, right?
But I think one of the things that I love you said the most is representation, right?
Which has been, I think, echoing the past few years, right?
I think as Asian hate crimes are going up, we're trying to combat that with more representation,
right?

(30:29):
I want to share another thing from the event on Sunday.
Like you said, I was anyway, I was the psychologist, the moderator on stage.
And during the Q&A portion, I think one of the audience is like, I'll be honest, it's
the first time I've ever seen an Asian psychologist.
It says a lot, right?
We may not have the on hand statistics when it comes to, I guess, the amount of Asian

(30:52):
psychologists or mental health experts, right?
I think it just goes to show that representation is needed.
And it's so important.
I said this last time too during our live stream with our friends from Annie's Health,
right, Nisha?
I was saying how Viola Davis recently had a recent interview and someone asked her,
why is representation so important?

(31:13):
Like why do we need to see people on screen who look like us or on books or whatever industry
may be?
And Viola Davis said that representation is the physical manifestation of your dreams
and your hopes.
It's different just having a stereotype and an archetype.
You need to see someone tangibly and viably and that you know for yourself that it can
happen.
And I think that's also transmissible to the concept and to the field of mental health,

(31:37):
right?
It's having Asian representatives, psychologists, mental health experts, or even those who are
founders of amazing programs who give resources to the Asian community like yourself, right?
And I think that's why it's also so important to keep the factors within the Asian community
that let's say the whole collective, right?
The Asian collective, the Asian community, as I've seen it online, it can be connotated

(32:02):
in a bad way in the sense that because of such a community, anything you do wrong will
reflect on the whole community, right?
Like you always think, what will others think?
What will others say of me?
What will my community think of me, right?
But I feel like we can also pick up that potentially negative connotation about the community to
something so positive, right?

(32:23):
Just using the community to build that mental health project, right?
Hence your name.
And I think this is what I love about your stay in, check in program, right?
That you do for Asian mental health project, which is I believe what you do on a weekly
basis, is that correct?
I wanted to focus on one of the days, so it's just the proud Asian men section.
Why do you think it was so important to have a session specifically for Asian men or just

(32:48):
conversations about Asian men in general?
Yeah, and thank you so much for calling in a proud Asian men.
That is one of the sessions that's very, very near and dear.
That's one of our bi-weekly sessions led by the amazing Leo Shaw, who is a wonderful organizer
and artist and facilitator.
I felt it important to have proud Asian men.

(33:09):
So that was actually one of our first affinity groups, specialty groups for a specific community.
That's not just the stay in check in, because I think the way masculinity works in Asian
communities is, and patriarchy works, it makes it very difficult for the men in our community
to be able to talk about mental health.
I think from a sheer numbers perspective, it's something like 70 to 80% of mental health

(33:34):
providers are women, I think, or they're like white women or something like that.
I'm going to botch these statistics.
But I remember reading an article saying that contrary to other fields, the mental health
field is majority women, which was very fascinating to me.
And it just sort of highlighted a need for representation for men to be able to talk
about mental health.
Now, again, this is from outside where I identify as a cis woman.

(33:56):
So I want to highlight my lack of knowledge of the male and man experience or masculine
experience there.
But the proud Asian men's mission is to sort of unpack masculinity and its role in men's
mental health.
And how can we sort of reprogram what masculinity looks like to be empathetic and compassionate
towards one another?

(34:16):
You know, the mental health crisis for men is very real, and it can be super difficult
to talk about.
And so, you know, the specific offering is to hold a space that is led by men to be able
to discuss mental health in a as safe as possible way.
You know, there, of course, it's a bit of a work in progress.
And I appreciate you calling out, you know, Asian Adults Project in and of itself.

(34:39):
It acknowledges that mental health and this space is a work in progress there.
Yeah, so, you know, we really wanted to specifically offer this space because of the lack of resources
for Asian men and the lack of spaces there.
You know, I don't think there are too many.
And I hope that there are more, you know, along with proud Asian men.
And I know there are more, which is so exciting.
And so, you know, hopefully spaces like these can serve as a sort of blueprint or ripple

(35:03):
effect to offer more spaces for men to feel safe and being vulnerable and talking about
their mental health.
Because it is a very large issue that I think, you know, requires more representation than
there is now.
Yeah, super agree.
I want to talk about it because, you know, I had a patient several years ago.
He was an Asian man that was going through a lot and outside of the surgery that he just

(35:26):
had, there's just so many things going on in his family.
And I remember it was like, 2 a.m. in the morning, we're just talking and he started
to cry, you know, as he was telling his story.
The first thing he did was he took the tissue at the bedside table.
But he's just like, oh, I'm so sorry that you had to see a man like me cry.
And I think that raises up a lot of thoughts, right?

(35:49):
Like I feel like especially in the Asian community, right?
In the Asian, the Asian collective, especially, I guess, back home, right?
Especially for immigrants who came here to like so many men had to go through so much.
I feel like they don't have the felt like the need or felt like they had the permission
to cry.
Right?
And I'm so excited to see men as we're talking about, specifically Asian men, like to have

(36:11):
feelings, right?
To show those feelings.
So I am so happy and glad that you have a biweekly session about Asian men.
Right?
Yeah.
I mean, I mean, to that point, I mean, thank you for calling that.
What we've noticed, you know, we do a little bit of work with seniors fight back and they're
really awesome organization that worked with senior citizens and things.

(36:34):
And what we've noticed is that, you know, when there is distress in older Asian men,
specifically, they don't talk about the distress that is, you know, they don't talk about their
own mental health and emotional stress.
It's not really about their feelings.
Like, you know, they talk about the physical impact of that.
Like my head hurts.
I remember when my dad got really agitated, he would say like, I'm just getting numb.

(36:54):
I'm getting hungry, you know, things like that.
It was so much easier to approach discomfort from the framework of one, like control, but
to like physical ailments than it was to say, hey, I'm actually feeling sad and lonely right
now.
And because it's so heavily stigmatized to talk about feelings with men and there's that
expectation to be a sole provider and therefore you cannot budge.

(37:16):
And, you know, you have to be the stoic sort of figure.
And you know, I think that can be very hurtful.
And you know, I'm hoping that groups like Proud Asian Men and also you and people talking
about this more within, you know, men and masculine communities, we'd be able to destigmatize
mental health and further that mission as well.
Yeah.
I wanted to pick on the word that you used, stoic.

(37:37):
It just reminds me because I read the, well, there are several articles recently from the
Medical Association where they're calling out racial bias in medical textbooks and medical
exams.
And I mean, I've seen this from my own eyes, reading my own textbooks and they're saying
textbooks and they're saying exams.
Usually exams would use a word to explain a specific racial group and stoic would always

(38:04):
be used for the Asian patient, right?
And it just goes to show that there's this known barrier between the Asian community
and trying to be very expressive of how they feel, right?
That's why it's like stoic.
I remember an exam actually for a medical, my medical surgical exam where it says there's

(38:24):
an Asian patient.
What would you say would be the most expected facial expression you'll see from this patient?
The correct answer would be stoic, right?
So it just goes to show that there's really a lot to unpack and a lot to work on when
it comes to trying to move away from the identity of stoicism, right?
That others place on us and to where we can express more and we can advocate more for

(38:50):
our feelings for others, which I love that you do through Asian Mental Health Project.
Well, you've built such an amazing community, such amazing programs that gives life changing
and life saving resources.
How do you optimize or practice your own mental health now?
Yeah.
I mean, thank you.
That is such a...

(39:10):
I could unpack like the...
You unpacking stoicism and not being able to show on your face how to express things
is unearthing so much about how that translates to emotional neglect.
There's so much to unpack there.
Neglecting our means of expressing our feelings and not honoring our feelings is emotional
neglect and therefore that contributes to trauma.
So many things.

(39:31):
But how do I take care of my mental health?
Great question.
Well, let me be very transparent on my mental health journey at this point.
I've been going to therapy on and off for seven years, so I still go to my therapist
and she's amazing and that is one key pillar of my mental health care.
On a day to day basis, it can be difficult to constantly think about mental health and

(39:53):
constantly prioritize myself and prioritize my care.
It's something that I have to really remind myself to do.
I think when we think about self care, the first thing that I think about is checking
in on how I feel at this moment.
Am I feeling sad?
What am I needing?
And that's the number one best thing I can do for my mental health is not necessarily
going directly to a court mechanism, but better understanding where I'm at at the moment.

(40:18):
Recently I've had issues regulating my own mental health.
So very quite transparently, I've also restarted medication.
So that has helped me cope with my own anxiety and that's just one of the tools that I use.
Other than that, I also know having tune into my body, I feel like I know that being outside
makes me feel good, doing some sort of physical movement throughout the day makes me feel

(40:40):
good.
Resting my eyes more makes me feel good as well.
So I just kind of lean into those things that feel really aligned with what my body and
my mind want.
And that is sort of my best tip for self care is mapping out what makes me feel comfortable
and good and most aligned and most at peace and going forward and doing that.

(41:02):
So whether that is like shutting off the computer and just like laying down for like 10 minutes
and like doing a little reset or if it's like going to therapy and taking my necessary medication,
you know, those are a lot of ways that I, you know, manage my mental health.
And one thing I tend to do is I spread myself very thin and I tend to people please a lot.

(41:24):
So one thing that part of my self care journey now is to unlearn that behavior or actually
this is a really great podcast called the inner child podcast.
The host, yeah, she's awesome.
Host said instead of like thinking about like omitting like other folks and people pleasing
like add yourself back into the equation.
So what I'm trying to do now is like how can I consciously add my desires and my wants

(41:48):
into the equation as well.
So these are more like abstract things for self care like it's oh, I also have been guasha-ing.
It's been, it's been so great.
She's, she's, it's a great, yeah.
I love it.
It's like so nice.
I'm like feeling more smashed but also like it's like really like a good way to like tune
in with like my senses of like touch and stuff.

(42:09):
So that's been great.
I love it.
You know, yeah, I mean, I keep going back to the event.
It's so historical but in the event of this Dr. Jenny Wang was like we have to create
that step from just reading things online to actually practicing that mental health,
right?
And all of those are, you know, amazing, amazing ways to practice your own mental health, right?

(42:33):
And given your own experiences and I know you hear so many experiences of others through
Asian Mental Health Project and all of your check-ins and the people you meet.
As the founder of Asian Mental Health Project, what do you think would be your message to
someone especially within our community who may feel so alone and the darkest bit of their
lives and does not know what to do next to rise up again?

(42:58):
Yeah, thank you so much for sharing.
I think there's the quote, this too shall pass.
Is that biblical?
I don't know.
I'm not really but that has really helped me because I think in the moment of experiencing
whether you're in crisis or just any sort of emotion, understanding that is something

(43:19):
that can be and needs to be felt but it can also, it can and it will pass too.
Like there are better times coming and you know not everything has that sort of permanence
and doom that you know I often you know felt.
I think at my loneliest point, I feel like there is you know nothing else left there

(43:40):
but time and time again I am proven, I prove myself wrong with that and there is always
another side like this too.
The wave will pass as well.
I think any practical advice that I have would be to, I don't want to say just you know go
to therapy because again it's not necessarily accessible for everyone but if you can and
have been considering therapy, take the call.

(44:01):
You know take the first few consultation calls, talk to some therapists and you know give
yourself a set of goals and intentions with that and it can be as simple as like I feel
stressed, can you help me?
You know like things like that.
Yeah, take those initial calls.
I think it can only really help to do that and you don't have to do it alone.

(44:21):
A lot of us are doing that alongside with you and for those who are looking to expand
their resources or wanting to get involved, you know I think it is so important and wonderful
to see folks like start their own groups and things and be able to take initiative there.
I think it's such a good time to be connected within the community so whether it's showing

(44:42):
up at a group or finding you know free resources somewhere and going to those, I think it's
so important to be with one another and gather and yeah that's I think that's my that's
my advice.
Those are my two cents.
I love all of that.
Carrie you built such a beautiful and powerful and again life changing and life saving thing

(45:04):
and it's such an honor to sit down with you today and to speak all about it.
Thank you so much for joining me.
Thank you for all you do.
I think you know your work is awesome.
I've definitely been following you since we did the clove also so comfortable.
So yeah thank you for holding this space and for elevating these really important issues

(45:27):
in healthcare.
Thank you for being part of it.
I'll see you again.
I'll see you in LA.
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Step into embracing your identity without hiding, express yourself, and apologize.
Hello!
Hi!
Hello!

(49:10):
Excited!
It's not every day that we get to talk about this topic, so we're really excited.
Yeah, I mean, it's such an important topic, and I think one that's not really talked
and dissected much about, and I know that July is Minority Health Month, which I found

(49:32):
out recently from your page, so I was like, this is perfect, the stars have aligned.
And anyways, if you could just first please introduce yourselves to everyone.
Thank you so much.
Of course, I'll get started.
I'm Nisha Desai.
I'm one of the co-founders of Anise Health and the COO.
I have been working on this with Alice around early 2021, and a lot of, you know, our passion

(49:54):
for working on this comes from our own personal experience and journey through the mental
health system as Asian Americans.
So I'm happy to dive more into that soon.
But yeah, last thing I'll share is I'm a second generation South Asian American, and I grew
up in Orlando, Florida.
And I'll pass it to Alice.
Hey, I'm Alice.

(50:15):
I'm the other co-founder.
Nisha and I met at business school.
We were doing our MBA programs, and we totally bonded over our shared passion for mental
health.
And we were both exploring some innovative things to do in the field and ultimately landed
on this problem that we have both felt personally and seen it affect our close friends and family.

(50:39):
And it was really just something that we felt so passionate about and are now fortunate
to be able to actually working on this.
Yes, I love it.
And also everyone business school at Harvard.
Anyway, now that we said that.
Well, thank you so much again for joining me.
I met Nisha probably a month ago at the Asian Founded Event.

(51:01):
Time is just flying.
But I have heard of Nisha, I think last year during Mixed Asian Media's festival, if I
remember correctly, I wasn't able to attend the session, but our dear friend Alex Chester
Iwata has told me so much about Nisha and I finally had the pleasure of meeting Nisha
a month ago at the Asian Founded Event.
And now we are here.

(51:22):
And we are here to talk about very important conversations and conversations that sometimes
people will not be comfortable to talk about, right?
It's a lot of an earthing of many personal journeys.
And I think that's the first thing I want to delve into.
When I started this podcast series and I talked to many clinicians and scientists, one of
the things they like asking is why they do the things they do.

(51:46):
Because I think person's upbringing or their experiences says a lot of why they choose
the things they do in life or their career paths or their ventures.
And both of you are talking about your personal experiences in the mental health system.
And I guess let's talk about that.
What are those experiences that led you to a point where you realized, oh, I've experienced

(52:08):
this and now I want to open doors for others as well?
Yeah, I'll start.
So for me, it really stems all the way back to when I was growing up as a young kid.
I grew up in a South Asian household, one that I had everything I could have ever wanted
from really loving parents.

(52:29):
But the one part of my personality that I always struggled with was that I was really
emotional and I cried a lot.
But I also struggled with my own mental health issues that at the time were kind of cast
away as being too sensitive or I was always just told to be tough and get over it.

(52:49):
And that was very much the mindset that I just deeply internalized for most of my life
until college, which was the first time that I started to see people who looked like me
around me opening up about their emotions, sharing their stories and making me realize
that it was okay to not always be okay and to have mental health struggles.

(53:16):
And so that was the first time I tried to seek help.
I've always struggled with seeking help, probably because of everything I just described.
Whether it was from a professional or even from my friends and family, it's not something
that comes naturally to me.
But unfortunately, when I tried seeking help, the campus counseling system was not great
as a lot of campus counseling systems are.

(53:37):
It was really hard to get an appointment and when I finally did, I felt like I was being
judged quite a bit and just didn't feel understood by the person that I was talking to, the provider
I was talking to.
I stopped, I dropped, I gave up.
And honestly, it took me a really long time, years, until I started working on a niece
to get back into the habit of seeking professional help.

(53:59):
But the bigger kind of pivotal moment for me was I wasn't the only one that was going
through this on my campus and there was unfortunately a crisis, a mental health crisis on my campus
that led to a lot of loss of life.
There were 14 suicides during my time in college and the two years after.
And almost all of those people were people of color.

(54:21):
So for me, that was the moment that threw up major red flags that something wasn't right.
If it wasn't just me, there were people who felt like they either couldn't seek help and
left their mental health go untreated for too long or once they did seek help, just
were met with a system that was not built for them.

(54:41):
And as a result, felt like there were no alternatives, which should never be the case.
So for me, ever since then, I've been dedicated my career to being at this intersection of
healthcare and specifically mental health that I'm really passionate about and business,
which is what I studied in undergrad and where I feel like my skills lie, where I can really

(55:02):
help create some change.
Yeah, I'll have to share a totally different story, so I won't see through it.
Yeah.
Well, for me, it also started at a fairly young age.
Back in high school, a really close friend of mine had suffered from bipolar disorder,
which can be fairly disruptive to your daily life if it's untreated.

(55:25):
It's characterized by these mood swings when the highs are very high and lows are very
low.
And up until that point, I didn't even know what mental health was or that anyone could
have those issues.
So that was a very hard way for me to learn about the impact of untreated mental illness

(55:48):
on the individual as well as their loved ones.
Similar to Nisha, it wasn't something that was talked about at home.
I just felt really intrigued and compelled to be able to help someone who was going through
the same struggles.
So I went on to study neuroscience in undergrad and was on this path to becoming a clinician
that noticed so much systemic barriers for people to come into care and stick with care,

(56:14):
ultimately get better.
Saw myself drawn to working on that side of the problem, which led me to work across various
business roles in healthcare and consulting and then in private equity.
During those times, I have witnessed so many colleagues suffer from just leaving their
mental health untreated or unmanaged.

(56:38):
Basically what I would see at workplace is people would come in super motivated to learn,
but they would get burnt out within a year or two and move on to a new job.
And during this time, you're just pushing till you know you can't anymore.
But those have lasting effects for some people.
There's real physical consequences that I have seen my friends suffer through.

(57:03):
So I feel like it's something that I have always seen in people around me.
But for myself, I actually didn't seek therapy until I started at business school.
It was a point in my life characterized by many transitions from working to coming back
to school and then moving across the world.
I was working and living in Japan before coming to business school.

(57:26):
And so it was a lot.
And then COVID hit, of course.
So I sought therapy for the first time and I thought I was an expert on this topic.
And it was just like, okay, let's get in there, get this over with and be done with it.
But I actually really, really struggled to find a therapist that I found helpful.

(57:47):
I actually had to go through multiple therapists.
And despite me explaining my upbringing and where I thought my difficulties were coming
from, I never seemed to get the solution that had an lasting impact in my life.
So it's just fueled by so many of my life experiences that I'm building a need now.

(58:10):
Yeah, thank you so much for sharing from both of you.
I mean, different journeys and different stories.
I think one of the baseline concepts and essence that we're getting out of this is there's
really a flaw in the system, right?
Especially within the mental health space and they think that can send any ethnicity
or race or socioeconomic status.

(58:30):
And it's so sad because obviously there's physical diseases that we know of that we
all know, like cancer, heart disease.
But also mental health, illnesses, it's physical health, right?
It's something that for some reason I feel like society has divided both of them.
There's a chasm between the two.
And coming from a Filipino household, predominantly Filipino household, I think, I mean, I also

(58:53):
had a very loving supporting mom, but I've seen it within the culture itself.
And I think this is very common in Asian cultures, right?
I just wanted to share, I think a few years ago, there's a noontime show in the Philippines
that's been going on for like 30 years.
And what they do is they go into different provinces and they interview like local people

(59:14):
there.
And there was one episode where I think someone was a teenager and she was sharing on live
television that, oh, you know, I've been having mental health problems and depression.
And one of the co-hosts said, oh, depression, that's just a rich man's disease, right?
And so I guess there's this really foul-able and a lot of fallacies and myths and misinformation

(59:39):
when it comes to mental health, right?
A lot of stereotypes and stigma and taboo.
And I think it's because it's not really talked about, right?
When things are not talked about, when things are repressed and kept hidden under a rug,
right?
Lots of myths and misinformation and hurtful and offensive comments come out.
And I think that's one of our goals today is to really break down that narrative and

(01:00:02):
try to navigate the way that maybe what's the next steps that we can take, right?
And we said that July is Minority Mental Health Month.
And I wanted to really veer into, I guess, the space where the three of us can really
identify with is within the Asian-American sphere, right?
Like I said, I feel like especially for Asian-Americans and especially immigrant Asian-American households,

(01:00:26):
we all have this kind of like very sensitive topic, right?
I mean, sometimes too with my mom, I don't know if she's watching or not watching, but
sometimes like, should I say it this way?
And I think that's something that we all experience growing up, right?
For you both, what do you think are very culturally specific or race-specific mental health issues

(01:00:48):
that we have seen or if you have data on that Asian-Americans and Asians as a whole experience?
Totally.
Everything you just said is like both fascinating, but also things that we've heard so many times.
And so it's like, yeah, what can we do to change that narrative?
And that's what we're trying to do every day.
To your question about culturally specific issues, I think the first point that I want

(01:01:10):
to make is just obviously every individual is different.
And we like at least in generally with culturally specific care, the goal is never to stereotype
or generalize.
The goal is to really individualize the care to the person and all the clinicians undergo
training to understand how to be culturally sensitive, just to know how to ask the right

(01:01:32):
questions, to not be judgmental, to suggest strategies that fit into your value sets.
So that's point one.
But that being said, there are a lot of stressors that we see commonly in Asian-Americans that
it doesn't hurt to educate each other on and to make sure clinicians are trained to

(01:01:53):
understand how to treat those issues.
So a couple that come to mind, and I'll talk about them as quickly as possible for the
same time, are racism and just generally dealing with microaggressions or discrimination, perhaps
even in the workplace.
And then two is this concept of like model minority myth and all the issues that come

(01:02:16):
along with that.
So on the racism and microaggressions front, obviously that topic is more commonly talked
about these days ever since the pandemic.
Unfortunately, we saw like over 300% rise in anti-Asian violence since 2020.
And that's not obviously the full picture of the numbers, incidents that are reported.

(01:02:40):
So the problem is much bigger.
And that has a massive impact on our mental health.
There's a stat that we like to share that people who experience discrimination, whether
it's like overtly physical violence or microaggressions are two times more likely to report current
symptoms of anxiety or depression.

(01:03:00):
So it's a very real correlation.
But this experience isn't a new phenomenon.
It's something that has existed for years in this country.
Since like the Chinese Exclusion Act was one of a kind, there's a lot of bigotry, hatred
around 9-11 that eventually internalizes within the individual and makes them feel very alone,

(01:03:25):
makes them feel almost like a perpetual foreigner within this country and requires specialized
support in order to break down what some of those very internalized fears might be.
And then on the model minority side, very familiar to probably all of us Asians in this
room, but there's this claim and very false claim, it's a myth, that all Asian Americans

(01:03:49):
are smart, successful, educated, well-off.
And as a result, it can make our mental health needs feel very invisible.
It can make even the solution that we're building seem unwarranted.
We've gotten a comment from some people that we've talked to who aren't part of the Asian
community that's like, why do Asian people need specialized mental health support?

(01:04:11):
But comments like that where people just don't, they think like racism or experiences lived
by the Asian American community are not as bad as other marginalized groups.
And that comment is just so dangerous because we shouldn't be comparing experiences across
groups.
We should all be allies and supporting each other and lifting each other's voices up.

(01:04:33):
But a lot of Asians do end up feeling this intense pressure to achieve, to constantly
be these perfectionistic tendencies and to live up to expectations, whether it's of their
parents or society, that can again cause a lot of people to feel stress, anxiety, but
also to just feel very alone.

(01:04:55):
And so those are just a couple of examples of things that we try to specialize in at
Anis, but there are obviously many other similar types of stressors that we are happy to share
more about.
I don't know if you have anything to add.
Yeah.
Expectations are a very double edged sword, right?
And I think sometimes the call is coming from inside the house where you also mentioned

(01:05:19):
that sometimes it's from our parents, right?
It's from our relatives, right?
I don't know if you know, but there's a Facebook group called Subtle Asian Mental Health.
And it's, I think it's like, I guess it's a group of like Subtle Asian trades and Subtle
Asian baking.
You see all this anonymous posts from different members and recurring conversation is always

(01:05:41):
the concept of generational trauma, right?
And you also mentioned something about comparison.
And I think that's something that we see across the board, especially across TikTok videos
that become viral, right?
Parents telling their childrens and most of the creators, I find it fascinating that there
are Asian creators.
They're like, the parents like the typical, it has become a meme, but the typical, I cross

(01:06:02):
the rivers to go to school, blah, blah, blah, blah, and you can't do this, right?
And just jokingly, as it is on a surface layer, right?
It's a very real experience to many people, especially within Asian American households,
especially for the younger generation, right?
For those who may not know, we have a definition of what generational trauma is and how do

(01:06:24):
you navigate that given that it's kind of a power struggle between a child and the parent,
right?
It's not like a peer to peer.
Yeah, you bring up this really critical theme that exists in our community, particularly
among the Asian diaspora, those of us who identify as Asian but live in the Western
country.

(01:06:44):
And this generational trauma is very real.
It's defined as those trauma that's passed on from one generation to another.
There's a lot of studies that have shown it could be a result of genetic differences
or genetic disposition that affects your stress response.
So there's definitely a biological component, but also I think behavioral component.

(01:07:08):
Just think about what our parents have endured to, you know, survive, lift themselves, lift
the family up from significant political or economic upheaval.
And during all of that time, their mentality was to just keep going.
They most likely haven't stopped to take care of their mental health and like process the

(01:07:32):
trauma, right?
They've just been looking towards the future and there's a lot of, I think, anxiety or
trauma that have been caused from their experiences that have been unresolved.
And when people carry those trauma with them, everyone has different ways of coping.
I think for my parents and what we see in a lot of immigrant parents will cope by placing

(01:07:58):
all their hopes and dreams onto the next generation.
And for us that has shown up in these high expectations and very strict upbringing and
being told, you know, you have to achieve certain grades.
Dr. Lohier, you mean.
Without really realizing that maybe some of that is also driven by some of our parents

(01:08:24):
unresolved mental health issues.
So I think there's a lot of components.
You asked, you know, how do we get past it?
First step to start is to acknowledge that it exists.
I think it took me a long time to start seeing my parents as humans, like parents, because

(01:08:46):
the Asian household is so hierarchical and like what your parents say is kind of like
an absolute, right?
And I think it wasn't until like much later on in my life that I started to process, well,
they're only humans too with their strengths and flaws.
So not letting every word that your parents have said to you get to you and don't internalize

(01:09:13):
all of that, I think.
And starting that conversation with perhaps like what it is that they've endured and start
to unpack some of that together as a family.
Yeah, super agree with all of that.
Someone told me once that, you know, sometimes probably in the past our parents had no choice.
They had no time to sit down and be like, what am I feeling?
Everyone's like go, go, go, go, right?

(01:09:35):
And you're right, I guess that gets passed on to the next generation.
And like we said, this high expectations that just burdens someone, right?
And that can be true for also other ethnicities and cultures as well.
I mean, we're talking specifically about, you know, the Asian diaspora and Asian Americans,
and there's definitely Asian specific issues and concerns that we have talked about, right?

(01:09:58):
And I guess there's also very specific response to the way we navigate those things, right?
When you talk about seeking help and stuff like that.
You posted something on your page, I think a few weeks ago, where it says that the data
shows that 25% of Asian American adults with mental illnesses report seeking professional
help compared to 52% or less.

(01:10:19):
Why do you think there's such a disparity between this response to mental health treatment,
or at least like the baseline seeking help?
What is it about Asian Americans that we're kind of like, I think I need mental help?
Yeah, I think a lot of it comes down to what you alluded to at the beginning of this conversation,

(01:10:41):
which is stigma.
There are other reasons why people don't seek help, which I'll touch on at the end, but
stigma is one of the biggest components of why there's such underutilization.
In fact, a statistic that you shared is more interesting when you realize and you compare
against other groups that Asian Americans are actually the least likely to seek help

(01:11:01):
services or the most under utilizing group.
So it's a really big issue.
And the stigma I think stems specifically within the Asian culture from the fact that
we are like inherently a collectivist society.
Family dynamics really matter.
So community and what they think matters because technicalities, like communal harmony means

(01:11:25):
individual harmony in our culture.
Now obviously a lot of that is changing as people become acculturated and assimilated
into Western cultures.
And so the narrative around seeking mental health support is changing.
And so I don't want to be a Debbie Downer.
Things are definitely trending in a positive direction.
The tailwinds in the past three years since the pandemic started have been tremendous,

(01:11:48):
especially in like our generation.
But I think because of that collectivist upbringing and some of those undertones, it can be really
easy to want to shy away from seeking help or talking about it because you want to quote
unquote like save face.
There's a lot of shame and guilt in our communities when you feel like you're letting down others

(01:12:11):
and there's not enough self-promotion or focus on what it means to prioritize yourself, even
if it comes at the expense of others.
So I think that is a big reason why there's a lower rate of seeking help and also a reason
why there's a lot of like somatization.
They're basically like seeing physical symptoms or like flaining other things away without

(01:12:37):
a focus on the actual underlying mental health reasons or your symptoms.
So I think that's one thing.
And then there are other barriers that preclude people from seeking help within the community.
Things like language also can be really intimidating, especially for older generations when your
English might not be as strong.
It can be scary.

(01:12:57):
Talk to a provider.
There's also a lot of mistrust with the healthcare system because there is provider bias and
there is underdiagnosis or misdiagnosis that people have felt.
And so they're scared to go back to try to see someone and seek professional support.
So there's a lot of confounding reasons.
But my take is that a lot of it stems from that lack of comfort or lack of awareness

(01:13:22):
due to stigma.
It's almost like a new skill that we're having to learn because it wasn't modeled after
by our parents.
In fact, it was either dismissed or actively been told to not do it because it would bring
shame to the family or fear of confidentiality and impacting your school or work prospects.

(01:13:44):
So it's like something we're unlearning.
And then, yeah, that takes a little time.
But I definitely see the landscape shifting.
Yeah, I super agree with that.
I think there's that classic, what do people say, right?
I remember when I was in high school and I was having so much anxiety, I was like, should
I seek help?
But the first thing that came to my mind was not even about me.
I was like, wait, what do other people think?

(01:14:05):
Can I advise you this?
Advise you that?
Right?
And I agree with the whole collectivist mindset, right?
It's like a chain reaction, right?
What do you do?
It's just like a domino effect.
And the rest, I feel like there's this version of the whole Asian community will know about
it.
The whole Asian community will talk about it.
Right?
And I think there's a lot of barriers into not just receiving care in itself, but just

(01:14:28):
seeking it for a center.
Like you said, there's the stigma, it's taboo.
There's also the language barriers.
And outside of that, I think there's a lot of systemic barriers, right?
It's so hard to find a therapist, too, right?
I feel like there's schedules for, oh, they're not going to see me until three months later.
It's like, hello, I'm having a breakdown now, you know?

(01:14:48):
Stuff like that.
And I think the mixture of those societal issues and flaws or untalkable conversations
and systemic barriers all just mix itself into this big ball of what do we do now, right?
And I think that's where YouTube collectively creating this platform, this service, it's

(01:15:11):
just so beautiful, right?
And Alex first told me about it.
I was like, oh, this is very interesting.
I feel like this is the first of its kind, specifically also for Asian Americans, right?
And I guess I want to view more into them, to your journey into that.
What is Anise Health all about?
Yeah.
So Anise is a culturally responsive digital mental health platform, building the gold

(01:15:34):
standard of care for Asian Americans and for people of color.
So what we're trying to do here at Anise is reimagine the mental health care with culture
in mind at every step.
We know from data that actually 50% of people of color will drop out of therapy after just
the first session.

(01:15:56):
And when you don't continue with care, you don't get better.
And we've worked with psychologists and psychiatrists all across the country who are experts in
looking at how do we adapt the interventions, which have been largely developed in the West
for Western people to be more compatible with people who don't share those cultural values.

(01:16:22):
And today we've seen really exciting outcomes and feedback from our patients and providers
saying they've lost hope in therapy before, but Anise has really made them regain hope
in the process.
And we're seeing great engagement.
People are continuing their care, their feeling really heard and understood by their providers

(01:16:42):
and ultimately improving in their symptoms of depression, anxiety and stress.
So to break down a few components of what makes Anise different, first we've made the
therapy process much more action oriented and solution focused because as Asians, that's
our mindset.

(01:17:03):
I don't think we can change it now.
There's actually studies showing that we respond much better to these types of more
problem solving oriented therapy.
So what we've done is integrate therapy with coaching.
So coaches act kind of as like your personal trainer, but in mental health to help you

(01:17:24):
do the reps, do the practice and experiment with the strategies that you talk about with
your therapist who are the experts leading the care plan.
So there's this holistic care that you don't get by just going to a single provider, including
access to our digital resource library, which again has been tailored just for the Asian

(01:17:45):
American community.
So there's resources talking about common problems and challenges and how to overcome
pressures like perfectionism, people pleasing, tendencies, guilt and shame from setting boundaries
with your family, all of those resources are tailored to be used in conjunction with your

(01:18:06):
one-on-one therapy and coaching to make progress.
So there's really a proven outcomes that have been seen from our clients in our high quality
care.
So yeah, and I'll add on we're a telehealth only platform at the moment, but we really
pride ourselves in our technology and how we feel that technology can play a really

(01:18:28):
critical role in improving the experience.
So we do have a digital platform that enables all of what Alice described to kind of come
to life in a way that's really easy.
And it also helps to personalize not just the care plans, but also the resources, the
provider recommendations, and to help triage people to the right setting of care based

(01:18:51):
on progress measurements.
So there's a lot of data that's being shared back to the patient as well as provider to
ensure that the care plan is constantly being iterated against to really drive results.
And this isn't something that is as standard or common in kind of like private practice
settings.
So yeah, we're really excited about that as well.

(01:19:14):
And I guess the last piece that's really unique to us is just our provider network and how
curated it is.
They undergo training with the niece and they are really well equipped to deliver a consistently
high quality experience, which is not something that you'll see on other platforms where the
quality is much more variable depending on who you get, like who you're not.

(01:19:37):
And so we've gotten a lot of positive reviews from clients who just really appreciate that
they didn't have to go through a shopping process to meet with like hundreds of therapists,
right?
And they can get our recommendations.
They're set.
They're like good to go and they feel really seen and understood as Alice mentioned.
Yeah, definitely.
I mean, I definitely had my own experience of going through, I guess, an online website

(01:20:01):
looking for a therapy counselor and I'm like, okay, and then there's this filter and this
filter and then this filter.
And I still have like 500 recommendations.
I'm like, whoa, it's like, it's like you're watching, you're trying to look for a movie
on Netflix, right?
Because there's so many, it's just like, I'm not going to watch anything anymore.
Yeah.
If you get tired, and I'm sorry, oh my goodness.
And I guess that's why it's so important.

(01:20:23):
I think at the crux of this too, I think what's important is the training of the person who
is giving that help, right?
You could be the best therapist in the world, but if you cannot really cater to the culture
of the person that you're trying to help, right?
Culture is such an integral part of one's identity and it's the way that we, I guess,

(01:20:44):
we formulate our worldviews and it's the way that we navigate how to go about certain things,
right?
And so if I'm talking to someone and they have no idea like about the experiences that
I identify with, there's kind of that persistent gap in between the provider and also the person
as well, right?

(01:21:04):
Well, I'm just very curious.
Where did the name Anise come from?
Can you tell us the journey to that?
It's going to shock you when I tell you that it's a combination of mine and Alice's names.
I was thinking of that.
But we're not that shallow.

(01:21:25):
There's another reason.
The spice Anise originates in Asia and historically before it was used in cooking, it was also
used for medicinal and healing purposes.
So yeah, there's a kind of dual reason for that.
I love it.
And I guess it sticks true to the name, right?

(01:21:46):
Like hopefully it provides healing.
And I mean, just having support and the ability to speak to someone and during tough times
and times where you just don't know what's going on, like it's healing to the soul, right?
It's healing and healing to the soul.
It just leads to healing of the body, right?
Because it's all interconnected.
Like we said, mental health is physical health, right?

(01:22:08):
You cannot really separate the two.
Well, I mean, you have obviously bought something so wonderful catered to mental health support.
And we've talked a lot about mental health the past 40 minutes.
But why do you think it's so important that we talk about this?
Why is it so important for you to create a service like this?
Yeah.
Well, for me, I think it is very personally fulfilling to work on something that I kind

(01:22:31):
of wish I had my whole life and just didn't exist.
So it does give me a lot of fulfillment to work on something that we feel like we hear
from every single day from like 10s, 20s, 30 people every single day who want something
like this and are searching for it, but it just doesn't exist.
So that's what drives me every day is just like feeling like we're solving a real problem

(01:22:56):
and a real need.
But in terms of why I think it's important to seek mental health help, I think a lot
of it just comes down to feeling less alone, just feeling validated and having someone
to share your thoughts with, bounce your thoughts back to you, maybe even help you realize that
you're not the only one going through that struggle can be really uplifting.

(01:23:22):
And rather than treating mental health as like something that you seek help for when
something really bad happens, I think building it into your kind of daily routine is very
much like working out.
It's like you work out every day to try to feel like physically fit.
Similarly, talking to someone and seeking mental health support can help you stay mentally

(01:23:43):
fit and help you just better understand yourself so that you can live a more authentic life,
which is like our mission to help people live a more authentic and flourishing life.
So yeah, it's kind of a vague answer, but it just there are so many intangible benefits,
I think, when you just do build it into your daily life.
You stole my line.

(01:24:05):
But we're really here to support as many people and empower as many people as we can to live
their best lives.
And what we see oftentimes within the Asian population is often the hardest question to
answer is what do I want?

(01:24:25):
Who am I?
What do I want in life?
What do I value?
What do I like?
What I dislike?
And it makes life kind of difficult when you don't have that identity solidified or you
don't feel like you have the authority or power to demand those things, right?
As minorities, we feel like we need to achieve certain things to be worthy of X, Y, Z.

(01:24:51):
And we just want to help people with overcoming that kind of mindset to really live happier
lives.
And I think mental health support is it's kind of like like Nisha said, investing in
your physical health, you're investing in yourself so that you could be a happier person,
be a better friend, be a better sibling or daughter to your loved ones.

(01:25:15):
And it's life saving, right?
It literally is life saving.
I think like what Alice said earlier, we didn't really have the standard from I guess our
parents in the previous generation.
So it's beautiful that something like a niece can be the gold standard into doing that,
right?
And I guess it's a final question, you know, for future listeners of the podcast episode
as well, if there's for just someone out there, a young Asian American or not even young,

(01:25:40):
it could be in any age group and they feel like they're in the darkest moments of their
lives and they don't know what to do next, how to rise up again.
What would be your message for that person?
That you're not alone.
Over the past three years, we've gone through a lot and the world continues to turn into
a darker, darker place, it seems.

(01:26:02):
And so you're definitely not alone in your struggles.
And there is support out there.
You don't have to struggle alone.
I think that would be my main message.
It's normal for us to be struggling.
Just look at everything that's happened.
And also within the younger population, there was a survey that went out recently surveyed

(01:26:25):
the Gen Z's and 75% answered they have depression or anxiety.
So the mental health epidemic is really real and no one should feel ashamed of it.
But rather, it's something that could be worked on and can be improved with the right support.
So hopefully they can get to the point where they can start to have hope in the process

(01:26:51):
to taking more control over their wellness.
Yeah.
And I think a tip that I've learned through therapy that works really well is just like
realizing you don't need to boil the whole ocean at once.
So if you are in a really tough place and you don't know how to come out of it, start

(01:27:11):
small.
You can set small goals for yourself that you can reflect on, write them down so you
can see that you've made so much progress over time, even if it seems seemingly small
to you in the moment.
And similarly, find just like small things, small pockets of happiness that kind of give

(01:27:33):
you energy because that can start to turn your day around if you prioritize those things,
whether it's just going for a walk or taking a deep breath or having an extra glass of
water.
Like it can be really small things that just make you feel a little bit more energy and
slowly you can build on that to make bigger life changes.

(01:27:54):
But it doesn't have to all happen at once.
The progress doesn't have to be linear.
It can be all over the place.
I love that so much.
I mean, it's important to seek help baseline period, right?
But I think it's also very important to seek help that somewhat represents our identity,
right?

(01:28:14):
Like as Asian Americans, someone asked by Yola Davis once like, why is it so important
to have representation?
She said that representation is a physical manifestation of your dreams and your hopes
and your visions.
And it's important to not just have a stereotype or an archetype, it's important to live that
yourself.
And thank you for, Anise, for making that possible for so many for that physical manifestation

(01:28:37):
and representation of the help that people need for themselves.
So Alice, Anise, thank you so much for joining me today.
It's such a great conversation and so many important things to talk about.
And this is not the last time we're going to talk at all.
So thank you so much.
Thank you too.
You know, a lot of what we talked about today was that it's important to talk about these

(01:29:01):
things in order to normalize the concept of mental health support.
So I think you're doing really amazing work as well by facilitating conversation on these
really important topics.
So thank you for having us and for doing what you do.
Of course, Alice, Sisha, thank you.
Thank you.
Uh, Thanks.

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