January 19, 2024 • 54 mins
There are what seem to be rudimentary acts in our daily life that we do without a second thought, to the point that we refer to them as "second nature." Whether it's buttoning our shirts, turning a doorknob, or using a fork to eat, these are things that our body has already memorized, like taking a breath. However, what happens when we lose the ability and autonomy to perform the most mundane of skills due to sudden and unforeseen circumstances in life? According to a 2022 study by The Official Journal of the Japanese Association of Rehabilitation Medicine, only 25% of severe stroke survivors recover from hemiplegia, the paralysis of one side of the body. And according to the Mayo Clinic, common incidences such as falls, motor vehicle accidents, and sports can all result in paralysis secondary to spinal cord injuries. The loss of function in performing activities of daily living from these occurrences can result not only in decreased quality of life but also in mortality. The field of Occupational Therapy is a beacon of hope that seeks to help restore this lost independence and ensure a capacity to return to one's normal life.
We are joined in this episode by Milwaukee-based certified acute care occupational therapist Emily Longwell-Grice, also known by her renowned blog as That OT PhD Life. She received her first BA in English Language and Literature from the University of Delaware. After working as a newscast producer for a few years, she realized her passion for taking care of others. She returned to school and received her BS and MS in Occupational Therapy from the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, where she is also a PhD candidate for OT at the School of Rehabilitation Sciences & Technology. Having been an occupational therapist for a decade, Emily has worked in different clinical settings, including long-term acute care units, intensive care units, and skilled nursing facilities. Outside the clinical and into the classroom, she is a Physical Rehabilitation and Acute Care Lecturer for Master's OT students. She extends her love for expanding research and education within the field of occupational therapy through social media, where she educates the public about fine motor skills, adaptive equipment, home safety, and body mechanics for healthcare workers.
Livestream Air Date: April 6, 2023
Follow Emily Longwell-Grice, MS, OTR/L: Instagram
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Thankful to the season's brand partners: Covry, House of M Beauty, Nguyen Coffee Supply, V Coterie, Skin By Anthos, Halmi, By Dr Mom, LOUPN, Baisun Candle Co., RĒJINS, Twrl Milk Tea, 1587 Sneakers
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hi friends, happy Friday! I hope you had a great week so far and are looking forward
(00:09):
to an eventful weekend ahead. I am so grateful, given that you're hearing me speak right now,
for taking the time to tune in to today's episode. One that is so special to me.
Over the past three seasons of the podcast, we have had different types of therapists
as our expert guests. Physical therapists or physiotherapists, a speech therapist, and
(00:30):
a psychotherapist. There are definitely more types of professions of therapy from different
domains and aspects that we have yet to meet, but there is one that I particularly have
wanted to have on the show since I began the series. Occupational therapy. To be honest
with you, I didn't really know much about the occupational therapy or OT profession
(00:51):
until I became a new nurse years ago when I was working in the hospital and a patient
who was recovering from open heart surgery had a session with the OT. Like many others,
I had no defined idea of what an OT was or did, different from their commonly placed
counterparts, the physical therapists. However, that day since, I made sure to educate myself
(01:11):
in the field of occupational therapy and it truly is such a beautiful field. However,
there is definitely more light that needs to be placed in the profession and I hope
that this episode can fulfill that for all of you.
But before that, I want to tell quite a funny story. My cousin Kyle, who you all know by
now, and I went to a party in Los Angeles last year in a restaurant in K-town called
(01:34):
Intercrew. It was a party with different creatives from the area. The music was loud, there
were so many people in the venue, and everyone had to get close to speak to each other's
ears. Kyle is actually finishing up his masters in occupational therapy school this spring,
yay! There was one point during the party when we found ourselves standing next to a
(01:54):
group of girls and we were all introducing ourselves. You know, the usual questions are
where do you live, what do you do. One of the girls asked Kyle what he did for work
and he said that he was an OT student. The girl in video said, oh my god, I need therapy
and went on to tell of her current said life season. And we all knew she did not mean occupational
(02:16):
therapy. And on the drive back home, Kyle just said, I need to perfect my elevator pitch.
And that is what we hear today, the perfect OT elevator pitch. In all seriousness, there
is so much more recognition, limelight, and well deserved respect that needs to be given
to the field of OT and OTs themselves. They do so much selfless and amazing work for so
(02:40):
many people who may have lost their autonomy performing activities of daily living that
we often do not give a second thought about. Like buttoning a shirt, turning a doorknob,
or even using a spoon or fork to eat. These things for many of us are just second nature.
But so many life incidences, such as sports injuries, falls, motor vehicle accidents,
(03:01):
and even strokes can result in the loss of fine motor skills. And OTs are a beacon of
hope to help restore not only these functions, but also one's quality of life.
And just for some background, did you know that the field of OT found its conception
origin story way back in the early 1900s during the progressive era due to the rise in science
(03:21):
and technology modernization, resulting in increased industrial accidents? Hence the
word occupation. American nurse Eleanor Clarke Slagle is said to be the mother of occupational
therapy, having opened up the first occupational therapy training program, the Henry B. Fabel
School of Occupations in 1915 in Chicago. Her ethos is rooted in habit training and
(03:42):
meaningful routines to help shape a person's well-being on the road to recovery, with the
initial prospects of mental health patients. So truly, the field of OT is rooted in a holistic
approach not only for the physical body, but also for our mind. It is so beautiful and
I am so excited for all of us to learn more about it today. Thus, I am beyond honored
(04:04):
to have our expert guest on today to make this possible. The amazing Emily Longwell
Grice, Milwaukee-based certified acute care occupational therapist of almost a decade,
a PhD candidate in occupational therapy, and a university lecturer for physical rehabilitation
and acute care for masters in OT students. And online, she educates the public about
(04:25):
the OT field and more specialized topics such as fine motor skills, adaptive equipment,
home safety, and body mechanics for healthcare workers. I am so grateful that she extends
this education to us in today's episode. It's going tibia good day of learning about
all things occupational therapy. Get it? Tibia like, tibia and fibula. Okay, okay,
(04:48):
I'll let you go. Enjoy the episode. Okay, okay. And just a disclaimer, I ran into some
audio issues when transcribing the original video recording. So there are some unwanted
overlaps between Emily and I's audio. And it may seem like I talk over her at some point,
but please understand that I would never. Anywho, that's all. It's going tibia okay.
(05:11):
Enjoy the episode. Xoxo.
Hi. Hello. How are you? I'm good. I'm so honored that you decided to join me today to talk
about a very special month. I've been so excited for our episodes. I was going to say that
(05:33):
throughout the past two seasons, and now the third season of the podcast, we've had so
many therapists. We had like physical therapists, psychotherapists, every type of therapist.
And I'm like, I need to talk. I turned occupational therapist. And I always wanted to time it
during April, which is National Occupational Therapy Month, which is your month. So I'm
(05:53):
so honored and so grateful that you've come to join me tonight. If you could just first
please introduce yourself to everybody. Thank you.
Sure. So my name is Emily Longwell-Grice and I am an occupational therapist. I am currently
right outside of Milwaukee, Wisconsin. I am pursuing my PhD in occupational therapy at
(06:15):
the University of Wisconsin, Milwaukee, which is actually also where I got my bachelor's
in occupational therapy and my master's in occupational therapy. So it has all come full
circle educationally. And I graduated with my master's in 2014. So I have been practicing
OT for just under 10 years. Wow. Talk about an expert in the field and also talk about
(06:38):
loyalty. I mean, you know, your bachelor's, your master's and your doctor.
Yes. Oh my God, I know. I never saw myself doing all three at the same university. Trust
me. But you know what? The universe works in strange ways. You need a graduation award
just for like a loyalty award. Just for being in the same place all three, right? That's
right. That's right. You know, I will say that the university has treated me very well
(07:03):
and I am happy to be a loyal student to them. If anybody's looking at Midwest colleges,
I am happy to say the crisis at UW-Wass. Tonight is really just a night where we celebrate
your profession and everything that your profession stands for. But before all of that, I wanted
to, I love asking people the inspirations behind the undertaking of where do you are
(07:25):
now, right? Wanted to know like where did this inspiration come from? Is it family,
friends, personal experience? And I know you had a different first major, right? A bachelor's.
I wanted to know like the journey through that. So I always tell people this and I'm
old enough to say this out. The overall arching theme of this is listen to your mother because
your mother knows that. But it's true because moms, they see things in us that we don't
(07:51):
always see in ourselves. And so I do have my bachelor's in English from the University
of Delaware. And the first five years of my adult life, I actually worked as a television
news producer and I was so convinced this was going to be my life's work. I was going
to be a producer. I was going to work for like CBS News. This is going to be my huge
(08:11):
calling. Well, it just didn't work out. It was, I think, a personality thing. I wanted
to be around more people. I wanted to be out helping people. I wanted to be out really
getting to know people. I'm very much an extrovert. So being in a newsroom all day was just not
what I could do for the rest of my life. So I quit and just went back to square one and
(08:34):
was like, what am I going to do with the rest of my life? And my mom said, have you thought
about occupational therapy? And I said, no, why would I think about that? And she said,
well, don't you remember when you were in high school and you did your volunteer work
at the pediatric convalescent center? And I said, yeah. And she said, you were so happy
(09:01):
when you were doing that. And you spoke so highly of that experience and the people that
you worked with. And I just really see you being an OT. And coincidentally, my mom and
dad both work for UWM. UWM has one of the top OT programs in the country. And I said,
(09:22):
okay, sure. OT. Why not? Well, you know what? It's really not that easy. If you have a BA,
it does not translate to a BS. So in order to even apply to the program, I had to go
back and I had to take three semesters of anatomy, biology, statistics, and physics,
and all stuff that I had never done as an undergraduate and did not see myself doing.
(09:49):
But you know what? I studied my butt off. I got through it. I applied to the program,
got into the program, then there were three and a half more years of school. But I did
it. And I have never thought twice about it. Even when I was in school, even in the hardest
phases of it, like the finals and the late nights and all of that, it always felt like
(10:12):
this was what I was supposed to be doing this entire time. And it might have taken me around
my way to get there. But I did get there. And that's the end of it. Yeah. We are here.
Someone told me before, it doesn't matter how long it took to get to somewhere or the
detours that occur, as long as you get to where you're supposed to be and where you
want to be. Right. And it's just so funny that you're like, oh, and I have to add three
(10:36):
more years to this. And then now you went even back where you're a doctorate. So you
decided to go back even for more. And I can't imagine like more late nights and studying
and caring for people, which is sometimes not the easiest thing to do. Right. And I
guess we'll talk more about that too. But you know, this whole journey that took you,
(10:59):
I guess, full circle now to thanks to mom as well. Right. And all of the sacrifices
that need to be made, especially in the doctoral program. Do you have any regrets in pursuing
the field of O.T.? So, you know, when I went back for the O.T. program the first time,
I used to say, oh my God, why didn't I do this the first time I should have been doing
(11:23):
this when I was 18, 19, 20, 21? Why am I doing this now? And you know, honestly, I was in
my early, like I did this when I was 26, 27. It's not like I was that old. So to keep that
in mind. But at the time I felt so old because I was a returning adult student. And so I
did have that in mind sometimes where I was like, why didn't I do this the first time?
(11:45):
Why didn't I figure this out? But now looking back on it, I was a different student at 26,
27 than I was at 18, 19. And honestly, I would not have gotten as much out of it then as
I did when I did the program. So the big regret, but it's not a real regret. Yeah, yeah. Beautiful.
(12:11):
As an occupational therapy master's prepared, right? You're already taking care of patients,
not only clinical rotations, but in your job as well, right? I'm very curious what led
you to the decision of actually, I want to do a PhD in O.T. and can you also explain
what encapsulates the doctoral training for O.T. as well? Yeah, absolutely. So the whole
(12:33):
time that I was in the BSMS program, I was really interested in research. I'm a huge
medical model person. I love working in the hospital. I love working with very sick, very
injured people. That is my favorite. I just love doing that. And so the whole time that
I was a student, I would collaborate with my professors or my fieldwork instructors,
(12:58):
my CIs, things like that. And because they were all doing research and I really wanted
to do research as well. And I really wanted to get on board with their research. And they
were so willing to walk me through their process, let me help out in any way, shape or form.
I actually have my name on posters and presentations from the time that I was an undergraduate
(13:20):
and a master's student. And that was because I reached out to them and I really made that
effort. So then I would do that and I would go to AOTA and other conferences and I would
meet and network with people and they would say, well, why don't you come into your PhD?
Why don't you, you know, here's my card, keep in touch, let's do this later. I needed to
practice. I needed to go out in the field and I needed to be an occupational therapist
(13:42):
for a little bit. Not just because making money is nice and having a salary and all.
A steady income is always good, especially after three and a half years. Student worker
money, like it's not even comparable. I really needed to get out in the field. But also to
show that the education that I received, that I was going to do something with it, not just
(14:06):
go straight from one to another, to another, that I was going to take that clinical education
and I was going to go practice it. And I have no regrets about that. I love practicing.
Once I figured out the setting that I wanted to practice in, it was just like, okay, here
we go. Like, and we're off and I love it. I love it. I would go back tomorrow. I don't
have time to go back tomorrow. But I would go back tomorrow. I love that. Yeah. Like
(14:30):
you said, right? I think the things that's just meant for you and the things that you
like to do and that makes you happy, right? It comes really in full circle and everything
just interconnects everything you've done throughout your bachelor's and master's and
then now in your doctorate level of education and training, right? I can't imagine. Yeah.
And you know, part of what I'm doing right now, the reason I'm not in clinical practice
(14:53):
right now is because I'm also teaching in the program and I'm teaching phys rehab one,
phys rehab two, and then phys rehab two, part B. And I'm also teaching OT in acute care.
And so I really do have this wonderful opportunity to take what I learned in that clinical setting
and show my students how to do things. And yeah, I will admit that there's always a little
(15:16):
bit of imposter syndrome where I'm like, you think I know this? Like I have enough that
I can tell people what to do, but I do. Turns out I do. And that's another thing that's
really nice about being teaching and studying in the program that I graduated from is that
they know me because it's a small enough program that I kept in touch with everybody and they
(15:40):
all kind of kept tabs on me. And so when I came back, it was just like, yeah, Emily's
been in the hospital for like 10 years. Why don't we just have her teach? Like, okay.
You've been talking a lot about your education as an OT and you know, someone somewhere out
in the world where there's no OTs in their country, they're like, what the heck are we
talking about? Even within America, right? In our health care system. I always say that
(16:04):
OTs are like the hidden gems of health care, right? I worked in cardiac surgery, stepped
down in the hospital years ago, and we've had OTs, you know, working with our patients
post open heart surgeries or post heart attacks and strokes and stuff like that. And actually,
my cousin is an OT student in California. The world of OT, I feel like it's this, like
(16:27):
I said, it's like this hidden gem and there's people who have heard about it and there's
people who may not know what profession entails and encapsulates. I wanted to ask you, not
only as an OT, but also as a professor as well and go into the highest level of training
and your PhD program, what is occupational therapy? What is the whole premise of this
(16:53):
profession in this field? I love it.
Oh, you're going to be talking about my elevator speech. Yes, we have been told to practice
our elevator speeches. So I will say the way that I explain OT to patients and families
is that you know what physical therapy is. Physical therapy is going to get you up, they're
going to get you moving, they're going to get you walking, they're going to have you
(17:15):
doing stairs, so on and so forth. Well, you can't walk into an elevator naked and where
are you going to go to the bathroom? Because PT is not going to teach you how to do that
and they're not going to teach you how to get dressed. And actually, my program, we
just had an interprofessional event with the OT students and the PT students. And I had
(17:35):
some PT students say to me, I have never seen that equipment before. They had never seen
a Reacher. They hadn't seen a sock aid or shoehorn or any of that stuff. So PT is much
more biomechanics. It's very much kinesiology based. They have a wonderful way of explaining
to patients how the body works, what muscles work to get in tandem, antagonist and agonist
(18:01):
and all those kinds of things. And I think that is fantastic. And I love PT's. Some of
my best friends are PT's and OT's I think are much more holistic in what we do. Like
we're not just toileting for the sake of toileting. We are toileting because you live by yourself
(18:22):
and you used to do this by yourself and you're 35 years old and something sudden and random
happened and it's a huge setback and we want to get you back to where you were. And you
know what I say 30, it doesn't really matter. Like no matter what age you are, we want to
get you back to what you were doing and we want to get you to where you want to be and
(18:42):
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When I started promoting our episode today, I think most of the questions that I received
was what is the difference between an OT and a PT? I feel like in the hospital, especially
in the hospital, my patient could be with an OT and the reporter would be like, oh,
they're with PT today. So I feel like... They stare at me all the time. It drives me nuts.
(22:15):
Yes. And I'm like, I think they're with the OT today. Yeah, so... Well, thank you for
standing up for us. I appreciate that. This is why I've always wanted to have an OT. I
thank you for being here because I really do believe that we need to show candidacy
of both professions, which are so different and so intricate, right? I mean, I remember,
(22:41):
I think when I started out as a new nurse and I also was naive about the difference
between PT's and OTs, I would talk to the OTs all the time. It's like, can you tell
me when do I call you versus when I call the PT? And I remember one of the OTs, it's like,
you know, like PT is good with the biomechanics, but you call me when it comes to a lot of
(23:03):
the activities of daily living, right? Like how is this person going to eat, to use the
utensils? You know, the very miniscule and very finite things that actually just makes
the whole quality of life of a person, right? Like the ability to, am I able to use my hands
today to, you know, that I can actually put the spoon to my mouth or, you know, stuff
(23:26):
like that. And I think that was just a beautiful explanation and your elevator just so which
I love. And you know, basically the premise of this is a lot of restoration, right? Like
restoring what people may have lost, like any qualities in their movements or even cognitive
stuff as well, right? What do you think are the skills and qualities and maybe personalities
(23:49):
that one should have or exercises and OT? It's so funny that you say that. I have had
this long simmering research topic in my head, which is to give potential PT students and
OT students personality tests, like Enneagram exams and see where they score. Because I
(24:10):
honestly feel like there are different personalities that do OT and PT. I really do. And PT's will
say this as well. I'm not being biased. I have heard my PT friends say this, that OT's
are the empaths. And it's almost to our detriment in a lot of ways. It's like, we shoulder your
burdens. We see the person in that, that we don't just see a patient, we don't just see
(24:34):
a body. We see a person who had hopes and dreams and loves and likes and losses and
so on and so forth. And we really want to get to the bottom of that and discover who
you are and use that knowledge of you as a person to help you recover. Right. And again,
it's almost to our detriment because we feel things very deeply and we do take on a lot
(24:58):
of people's troubles. Just who we are. And also it's to our detriment because we will
let you talk forever. You can tell us all your stories because we've heard your story.
I will tell you. In the hospital, I think I would make rounds with my patients and then
one of them will be with the OT. When I come back to the rounds, they're still there. I'm
like, you're not done. She's like, yeah, she was telling me her whole life story. And I
(25:22):
was like, this is amazing. And you know what? It doesn't bother me though, because if you're
like in the bathroom, if you're in the shower, if you're doing something and you're talking
to me, well, I don't care. Like to me, making that connection with the person and them feeling
like they can tell me their stories, it makes a better connection. It makes a better patient
practitioner dynamic, I think. And then they're not going to turn me away. They might turn
(25:46):
everybody else away, but when I show up, they're going to be like, that's the girl who let
me talk for two hours yesterday. It's very important in the sense that, like you said,
the person in the bed is not just their diagnosis or the numbers of this or that, but it's an
actual person. It's someone's dad or mom or family member. And the stories and their backgrounds
(26:09):
give rise to the reason why it's so important for someone to learn how to be able to dress
again, themselves again, right? Or to turn on the faucet or to be able to use their hands
to eat again or just complete any ADLs. It's just such a beautiful and I can't imagine
how endearing and I guess so rewarding it is to be able to care for patients in that
(26:36):
very, very deep and intimate level, right? Yes, I agree. And you know what? That's part
of the reason that I really like acute care as the setting, because to me, it's the ability
to get to that person right after what could have been the worst day of their entire life.
And if my presence in some way, shape or form makes that day better, that's awesome. That's
(27:02):
just like everything to me. Yeah, and I wanted to ask you, I know you work in acute care
and you basically gave a sneak peek of what you do as an acute care OT. I was very curious,
are there like different disciplines within OT itself or specialties where you can work
in if you could tell us some of those? Yes. Oh my God, there's so many. There's so many.
(27:23):
I don't even know I'm going to be able to remember all of that. So the big ones I would
say are acute care. So you would have acute care, which is a hospital. Then you have inpatient
acute rehab. So that's people who can tolerate the three plus hours a day of OT, PT speech.
If they can't tolerate that or for some reason, they're not able to get into acute rehab,
(27:45):
because that's pretty competitive. Then you have skilled nursing. So you don't do three
hours a day. At one point you might've done three hours a day because of insurance, but
that's not really the case anymore. So you don't have to be able to tolerate that much
therapy. After that, there's outpatient therapy and there's home health. There is pediatrics,
but pediatrics can be inpatient acute pediatrics. It can be inpatient rehab. And then of course,
(28:11):
you have outpatient PEDs. You also have birth to three for pediatrics. And actually some
states after kids age out of birth to three, but they're not at school full time. In New
York, especially, there's this weird little gray area where you can do four year olds
and five year olds as home health visits, but insurance covers it, but I'm not quite
sure what it's covered under. And then you have schools and you also have mental health.
(28:35):
But under mental health, you can have like hospital based mental health. You can have
outpatient mental health, like community clinics, group homes. OTs practice in things like eating
disorders. They practice in pelvic rehab. That's a new one because that used to be
almost solely PTs, but now OTs are starting to do it. I mean, there are things you can
(28:57):
get your certificate in. Like you can be a neurospecialist. You can be an orthopedic
person. You can be a hands. You can do pelvic health. Like I just said, there's so many.
There really are. The one that I'm gunning for, so I have enough hours that I could be
certified in Fizz rehab. I just have to go through the steps to do it, which I haven't
(29:18):
done because I just have so many hours in the day. They're not filled ever. But I feel
like it would be good for my resume to have that on there. So I should do that. And then
the other one that I really want to do that everybody says I'm insane for wanting to do,
I want to be a certified wound practitioner. That is what I really want to do. But in order
to do that, I have to go back into clinical practice because I have to have like a thousand
(29:40):
hours of hands. Yeah, it's nuts. But I still want to do it. I really, really do. Because
I'm hoping that wherever I end up teaching, I finish my PhD, I actually want to do a wounds
class. And if I have a certificate, then I can be like, yeah.
I mean, those are a lot of places that an OT can work. I think there was one time my
(30:03):
cousin, who again is in OT school, and I think my uncle and auntie are talking about like,
oh, where can you work? And he's like, you can work in so many places. And it's true,
like different branches of medicine, where like the hospital base, home health base,
and rehab and all of those, even the more niche parts, right? Like hands and pelvic.
(30:23):
Well, I wanted to focus on your work as an acute care OT, right? What would the day in
the life look like? The bread and butter. Like if there's top three reasons why a patient
in the hospital would need the help of an acute care OT, what would be those?
So my day starts out, I walk into the hospital, I clock in, get a big cup of coffee, and then
(30:47):
I sit down and I start looking at my schedule and prioritizing who I'm going to see in a
day. So you usually have like eight to 10 patients on your list. And I would rewind
and say, you're going to have a ton of evaluations because people come in overnight and first
thing in the morning and you got to see them right away. And then the other thing is that
(31:08):
productivity, which rehab has, the expectations are much lower in the acute care setting because
they know we've got dialysis, we've got x-ray, we've got respiratory, we've got medication,
we've got everybody coming in and going surgery, being in the PACU, whatever. So the expectations
are much lower, which is kind of nice, but you still need to do your best to try and
(31:30):
see everybody. So you go through your list, you prioritize who you're going to see. And
then I do a chart review for everybody so that I have an idea of why everybody's there.
I have a very shockingly good memory for that kind of stuff. Like a lot of people will only
chart review one or two people at a time. I will literally go through the 10 people
and at the end of the day, I'd still be able to tell you why they were there and what they
(31:53):
were there for. Like it's crazy. I just have a memory for that kind of stuff. So I like
to chart review and I actually, all things considered, do a pretty deep chart review
on everybody because I find, and I'm sure you would agree with me on this, that there's
stuff in a patient chart, you think it's going to be on their admission, but it's not on
(32:15):
their admission. Like, oh, this patient is here for a chest pain? Okay, that's strange.
And then you go like three pages in and it's like, patient was just here a week ago and
had like, yeah, like had a patient like, okay, well that would have been good too, why was
that not on their initial intake? So yeah, so you got to dig deep in the chart and then
(32:38):
you get up on the floor, you find the nurses and you just confer with the nurses, okay,
how they do overnight? How are they doing this morning? Do they need any medication?
Is it okay if we go in and see them? All that really basic stuff, but you do need to check
with nursing. I would never go in a patient room without checking with nursing. You know
what, honestly, I've never tried it. I've never ever had that instinct to just go in
(33:04):
a patient room. Yeah, no, no, no. I'm always going to protect myself. That's advice to
everybody out there. Always check with your nurses. So I check with the nurse, then I
go in the patient room. If it's an evaluation, usually I'm in there for like probably 45
minutes to an hour, just a general treatment. It's usually 30 minutes unless on discharge
day I try, I just wrote about this on my DS for dressing post, that on discharge day,
(33:31):
if I have a patient who's going wherever they're going, it doesn't matter if they're going
to the next level of rehab or if they're going home or what the deal is. I always do a full,
as full an ADL day as possible as I can with them. I get them up. I'm there with them
to instruct them in their bathing. We get them dressed, like full clothes the whole
(33:53):
nine yards and nursing is pulling on board with us. I think it's wonderful that they're
so supportive of this. I just think it's really nice to be able to give patients that send
off because when you're in the hospital, you don't get to bathe. You don't get to brush
your teeth most days. You don't get to feel like yourself. And my heart gets so sad when
I would see patients come in to skilled nursing and they would still be in their hospital
(34:14):
brief and a hospital gown and they would be carrying their belongings in a plastic bag.
And they're scared because they don't know what the next stage holds. They don't know
anybody where they're going, all of this. And so to me, it just feels like it's the
one thing that I can do in my job to make them feel comfortable. So that's just my little
(34:35):
discharge thing that I do for them. Otherwise we get up, we move, we walk, we walk around
the room, we work on ADLs, we work on functional tolerance, we work on balance, we work on
all that stuff. And then I always try and make it every two patients I stop and I chart.
Otherwise I will completely forget what I did with them. So you have to do that. The
(34:59):
problem is a lot of times I'll run into PTs who are like, Hey, we have this evaluation
together and I read that they're max assist times two and nursing hasn't gotten them out
of bed because doctor hasn't wanted them to get out of bed. So on and so forth. So then
that it's like, okay, well, I'm just going to put a pin in my documentation because I'm
not getting max assist of two person out of bed by myself.
(35:20):
Yeah. I mean, I think it's just so beautiful, like what you do, right? Even upon discharge,
like letting them adjust themselves or change themselves. I think it also confers this sense
of self confidence, right? This sense of independence that, oh, you know, I can finally do it. Right?
I feel like especially in the hospital, right? People are patients are stripped of their
(35:43):
usual daily activities, right? Or let's say someone had a heart attack or a stroke or
post surgery. There's that lag phase where they can't do things on their own, right?
And the ability of the OTs to be able to like slowly piece all of those together again and
confer again that sense of independence that patients feel good about themselves, right?
(36:07):
They don't feel sorry for themselves that they can't do the things that they used to
be able to do. Right? I think it's such a beautiful, beautiful thing. Right? And along
with that, I wanted to ask, because a lot of the work you do is again, like trying to
train all of those back together. It's a lot of physical work, right? And it's a lot of
(36:28):
mental work as well. You know, like I think bypassing that mental block or mental fear
of, I don't know, like for the patients, like, I don't know if I can do this. Right? I wanted
to know what's your thoughts on OT? Is there a demarcation line between what you can do
for the patients versus what medications and maybe surgery could be to help them regain
(36:50):
the things again?
Yeah, that's a very good question. I am actually, I love medicine. I love pills. I love infusions.
I love injections. I love surgery. I love all of that. You will never ever find me being
like, no, no, no, no, no, the doctor said you should do that. You should hold off. Like,
no, I'm not, I'm not a doctor. I mean, eventually, that's a PhD doctor, not an MD. That's different.
(37:15):
I would never try to supersede what a doctor says, especially a specialist. If your orthopedic
surgeon tells you something, my treatment plan is going to be in line with what the
doctor is doing. If that makes sense. Yes, of course, we collaborate with the doctors.
(37:39):
I think that's much more common lately than it was in the very beginning. No, we were
very collaborative with all the doctors. And I love that about our job. That said, the
collaboration is they had ex surgery. They were diagnosed with this. They're on this
medicine. This is their medical course of care. How does OT incorporate into that? I
(38:06):
don't think from where I'm sitting as an acute care OT, I would never tell a patient
in the hospital not to listen to their doctor. I might say something like if they were like,
oh, my PCP said this, or the hospitalist said this, I might say, hey, you know what, if
they're recommending something about a very specific part of your body, it might be in
(38:29):
your best interest to seek out a specialist. Right? Like if they were newly diagnosed with
diabetes and they're like, oh, yeah, I'm just going to check in with my primary care later,
I'd say, you know, I think an endocrinologist might not be a bad idea or something like
that. You know, I think that to me is where I can best assist as far as making a medical
(38:52):
suggestion is, or I might just reinforce what the nurses said or what the doctors said.
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Interdisciplinary team, right? Like it's just an interconnection of everyone's expertise,
right? Because obviously OTs are experts of this, that physicians may not be or that nurses
are not, right? And I think every member of the healthcare community, especially the healthcare
(42:18):
team for the patient, are also like advocates of the patients as well. And for sure, especially
in your bigot of experience, you probably had times where like, I don't think that's
in line with what I would do for the patient, right? And be like, can we try this or can
I suggest this and stuff like that, right? And I think like you said, it's one of the
most beautiful things about the OT profession, the teamwork, right? Like everyone just blends
(42:42):
together their expertise and all of that. And I wanted to ask, what are the other best
parts of the OT profession for you? What do you love most about the OT field?
This sounds so lame, but I love working with people. I love, love, love working with people.
I didn't know that about myself for a very long time. When I was younger, I was very
(43:06):
shy. I was very introverted and actually did not really become much of an extrovert until
last couple of years of college. And then all of a sudden it was like, I hit my stride,
something clicked and I was just like, people are amazing. This is so much fun. And I really
feel like these days I have the kind of personality where I will just go out and make friends.
(43:31):
And so for me, when I go to work in the hospital, like so for my last job in acute care, I was
a float pool employee. I had pretty much full time hours, but I went to four different campuses
within the same hospital facility. But every single hospital that I went to, I was like,
Hey, I get to see someone today. Hey, oh my God. And I would be like, I'm coming to your
(43:54):
campus today. Let me know if we have anybody in common. Oh, don't forget. We'll have lunch
today, things like that. And it's awesome. And it's not just the coworkers. It's not
just my fellow rehab therapists, it's the patients. Because if I don't like people,
what are you doing working in healthcare? My God, I can't figure that one out. I can
(44:14):
understand getting burned out of it, but I am not burned out on it yet. I, and now that
I get to teach, it's the same thing that I get to go and not just my fellow professors,
because they're awesome as well. But the students, I get to go and I get to sit and teach, not
just teach in front of students, but that I get to interact with the students, you know,
(44:36):
after class hours around campus, things like that. And some of them are on here right now.
So that's nice. Yes. And, and that just makes me happy that I get to be with people who
know what I do, who like what I do, who value me and value my skill set. I just think that's
(44:57):
wonderful. And also, I told you, I love medicine. And so being able to be around it, even though
I'm not an MD or a DO or an RN or an NP or any of that, I, well, I'm an OT, right? So
that's still medical. And being able to have this knowledge and feeling confident with
the knowledge and feeling confident enough to be like, this is this and that is that.
(45:19):
And this is how we do this. And this is what we were doing. So I'm sorry for that. It feels
good to know what you're talking about. Yeah. And that just comes back. Again, like I said,
the difference that you make in people's lives, like even to the most intricate and to the
most complex, the things that I feel like healthcare is all about the numbers and the
grandiose, right? Like, oh, injections this, oh, surgery that, oh, procedure this. But
(45:44):
things that the patients remember the most are those intimate moments of when I go back
home, will I be able to open the doorknob on my house? Will I be able to brush my teeth
again when I get home? Will I be able to do this and not feel like I'm a burden to my
family? Right? And I think those are the things that, you know, your profession of occupational
therapy really fulfills and really makes possible for the patients. And I really do believe
(46:09):
it's such a beautiful, beautiful thing. Right? And I think with that, I wanted to know if
there is a pre OT student or an OT student listening to us today or someone who's been
in the profession for the decade and continuing on in the field and has so much love and passion
for the profession. What would be your message to those students today?
(46:33):
Two parts to that. The first is when you were talking about what patients remember, what
they take away from their experience in the hospital or the medical setting, whatever,
there's an expression that I've seen and I'm going to fumble it, I know, but it's something
like medicine adds years to your life, but therapy adds life to your years. And so I
(46:54):
really feel like that's just, that's just an excellent representation. Like that's an
excellent summation of what it is that we do. So that's number one to the potential
OTs out there. That's what I would say. Think about all the amazing impacts that we, we
have the ability to have on people and really, you know, reflecting on that. And then also
(47:16):
that post COVID in medicine, there's been a lot of burnout and I fully, fully recognize
that and it's still there. It's still there. It's unfortunate. And it cuts across all medical
fields really. It cuts across nursing and doctors and therapy and everybody. It just
does that sad. Don't only look at the bad, right? Like, it's like a Yelp review. This
(47:40):
is, this is what I think that people only tell you when they have a terrible experience.
They don't tell you when things were good because if everything was good, they just
don't think about it. They're just like, yeah, it was just another day because nothing bad
happened. It's when bad things start to happen that people chime in and they get mad and
(48:02):
they say frustrating, sad things. And, and that makes me sad. And I worry that people
are going to hear that potentialities are going to hear that and they're going to be
like, well, why would I do that? That sounds terrible because I need to tell you it's not
all like that. It really isn't. I would say the good days far outnumber the bad days.
They really do. And it's not just my outlook on it because I love it and I'm not leaving
(48:26):
and I want to continue to do this for the rest of my life. Really. I just think that
you need to make sure that you look for the good in it. Don't just listen to the complainers
out there. Even though that should have a reason and I'm not saying that they don't.
Everybody has a reason to complain. I am just saying that's one day in a life. That's one
(48:50):
day in a career.
Yeah. That also entails to the fact that, like we said, right, a lot of burnout and
that's happening with you, especially with this whole COVID thing, right? And there are
certainly bad days during work and especially dealing with people, right? It's not all glory
and sunshine, right? There's things that we want to make possible for our patients, but
(49:15):
may not be true all the time, right? And I think a big part of that is grounding yourself
and having forms of self care and decompression out of work, right? And like replenishing
yourself. Yeah. I wanted to ask how do you decompress out of work and you maintain this
excitement being an OT?
So my ways of decompressing are number one, I've always been very fortunate to be surrounded
(49:39):
by amazing coworkers. There has not been a single place that I've worked that I have
not had a core group of amazing coworker friends that at lunchtime. I'll say my first job,
I worked in longterm acute care in New York City and at yes, and at lunchtime, the therapy
(50:00):
gym would be locked. They would lock the doors. No patients could come in. No doctors could
come in. No nurses can come in. It was just the therapy staff. And we would sit together
at lunch every day and we would just decompress. It was amazing. We had this whole routine
where like one person would bring in ice cream for the week. And so we would each have like
(50:23):
a little Dixie cup of ice cream and we would just sit there and we would talk and we, and
it was amazing. And I didn't have that at every other hospital, but every hospital I
worked at, I had a group of people that I knew were on the same page as me. That as
much as we would be like, Oh my God, can you believe such and such happened? We all loved
our jobs. It was just our way of letting off steam. So that, which I highly recommend,
(50:50):
I am really into orange theory. That is my exercise. I'm a huge exerciser. I love it.
I've loved it my entire life. It's just the endorphins, the serotonin, what have you.
It's just so awesome. And then the other thing, I just like to be outside, which is funny
to say because I'm not a hiker. I'm not a hiker. I'm not any of those things. I like
(51:16):
a city girl who likes to be outside in the city. When we lived in New York, I could go
a week without getting on any kind of transportation unless it was like absolutely necessary. Like
if there's time constraint, I just like walking up and down the street. I like seeing people.
I like putting my earbuds in and I just like being outside, breathing fresh air. Yeah.
(51:38):
Honestly, it can be so therapeutic walking the streets of New York and seeing all the
buildings and just like, you know, New Yorkers, they couldn't give a crap about anyone else
walking with them. Well, and that's the thing that's nice that you don't participate. Somebody
says, question's not a hiker. Can confirm. That is so true. I am not a hiker, but I can
(52:00):
walk New York City blocks. Oh my God. Once I walked, we are, so our apartment was on 82nd.
I was walking from Battery Park all the way up to our apartment. Just love walking streets
and streets. Right. It's, it's just, yeah. And all those endorphins too, like you said,
just walking and just seeing stuff. Yeah. Well, I'm glad to hear that, you know, you
(52:24):
have a lot of forms of decompression as well, which is very necessary, especially with our
work dealing with people. Right. Oh, and don't get me wrong. I also, I say the older I get,
the more high maintenance I become. So there are, you know, hair appointments and massages
and you know, getting my, I have a facial tomorrow. Oh yes. I love it. And it's so necessary.
(52:51):
Oh my gosh. Yes. The hospital air is and the hospital lights are really brutal and especially
like, you know, the whole, the whole past few years in a room asking and just breaking
out and just everything. And I didn't get masked. I mean, my issue was the goggles would
press against my eyes so hard that I would get lines right here. Yeah. We all had our
(53:15):
own forms of reactions to our PPE. Right. Yeah. I learned so much today about only the
feel of the OOT. But just again, just reinforcing the beauty again in this hidden gem and healthcare.
And I mean, I couldn't think of, you know, any other paradigm of the world of occupational
(53:36):
therapy, but you and your passion and your love for the field really emanates through
the screen. Even though we're like thousands of miles away. I'm so grateful that you joined
me tonight for our conversation. Oh, it's nice. Of course. And of course, happy OOT
month to you and to everybody. Thank you so much. We hope you have a great rest of the
(53:59):
week. Bye. Bye. Bye.
Hi friends, happy Friday! I hope you had a great week so far and are looking forward
(00:09):
to an eventful weekend ahead. I am so grateful, given that you're hearing me speak right now,
for taking the time to tune in to today's episode. One that is so special to me.
Over the past three seasons of the podcast, we have had different types of therapists
as our expert guests. Physical therapists or physiotherapists, a speech therapist, and
(00:30):
a psychotherapist. There are definitely more types of professions of therapy from different
domains and aspects that we have yet to meet, but there is one that I particularly have
wanted to have on the show since I began the series. Occupational therapy. To be honest
with you, I didn't really know much about the occupational therapy or OT profession
(00:51):
until I became a new nurse years ago when I was working in the hospital and a patient
who was recovering from open heart surgery had a session with the OT. Like many others,
I had no defined idea of what an OT was or did, different from their commonly placed
counterparts, the physical therapists. However, that day since, I made sure to educate myself
(01:11):
in the field of occupational therapy and it truly is such a beautiful field. However,
there is definitely more light that needs to be placed in the profession and I hope
that this episode can fulfill that for all of you.
But before that, I want to tell quite a funny story. My cousin Kyle, who you all know by
now, and I went to a party in Los Angeles last year in a restaurant in K-town called
(01:34):
Intercrew. It was a party with different creatives from the area. The music was loud, there
were so many people in the venue, and everyone had to get close to speak to each other's
ears. Kyle is actually finishing up his masters in occupational therapy school this spring,
yay! There was one point during the party when we found ourselves standing next to a
(01:54):
group of girls and we were all introducing ourselves. You know, the usual questions are
where do you live, what do you do. One of the girls asked Kyle what he did for work
and he said that he was an OT student. The girl in video said, oh my god, I need therapy
and went on to tell of her current said life season. And we all knew she did not mean occupational
(02:16):
therapy. And on the drive back home, Kyle just said, I need to perfect my elevator pitch.
And that is what we hear today, the perfect OT elevator pitch. In all seriousness, there
is so much more recognition, limelight, and well deserved respect that needs to be given
to the field of OT and OTs themselves. They do so much selfless and amazing work for so
(02:40):
many people who may have lost their autonomy performing activities of daily living that
we often do not give a second thought about. Like buttoning a shirt, turning a doorknob,
or even using a spoon or fork to eat. These things for many of us are just second nature.
But so many life incidences, such as sports injuries, falls, motor vehicle accidents,
(03:01):
and even strokes can result in the loss of fine motor skills. And OTs are a beacon of
hope to help restore not only these functions, but also one's quality of life.
And just for some background, did you know that the field of OT found its conception
origin story way back in the early 1900s during the progressive era due to the rise in science
(03:21):
and technology modernization, resulting in increased industrial accidents? Hence the
word occupation. American nurse Eleanor Clarke Slagle is said to be the mother of occupational
therapy, having opened up the first occupational therapy training program, the Henry B. Fabel
School of Occupations in 1915 in Chicago. Her ethos is rooted in habit training and
(03:42):
meaningful routines to help shape a person's well-being on the road to recovery, with the
initial prospects of mental health patients. So truly, the field of OT is rooted in a holistic
approach not only for the physical body, but also for our mind. It is so beautiful and
I am so excited for all of us to learn more about it today. Thus, I am beyond honored
(04:04):
to have our expert guest on today to make this possible. The amazing Emily Longwell
Grice, Milwaukee-based certified acute care occupational therapist of almost a decade,
a PhD candidate in occupational therapy, and a university lecturer for physical rehabilitation
and acute care for masters in OT students. And online, she educates the public about
(04:25):
the OT field and more specialized topics such as fine motor skills, adaptive equipment,
home safety, and body mechanics for healthcare workers. I am so grateful that she extends
this education to us in today's episode. It's going tibia good day of learning about
all things occupational therapy. Get it? Tibia like, tibia and fibula. Okay, okay,
(04:48):
I'll let you go. Enjoy the episode. Okay, okay. And just a disclaimer, I ran into some
audio issues when transcribing the original video recording. So there are some unwanted
overlaps between Emily and I's audio. And it may seem like I talk over her at some point,
but please understand that I would never. Anywho, that's all. It's going tibia okay.
(05:11):
Enjoy the episode. Xoxo.
Hi. Hello. How are you? I'm good. I'm so honored that you decided to join me today to talk
about a very special month. I've been so excited for our episodes. I was going to say that
(05:33):
throughout the past two seasons, and now the third season of the podcast, we've had so
many therapists. We had like physical therapists, psychotherapists, every type of therapist.
And I'm like, I need to talk. I turned occupational therapist. And I always wanted to time it
during April, which is National Occupational Therapy Month, which is your month. So I'm
(05:53):
so honored and so grateful that you've come to join me tonight. If you could just first
please introduce yourself to everybody. Thank you.
Sure. So my name is Emily Longwell-Grice and I am an occupational therapist. I am currently
right outside of Milwaukee, Wisconsin. I am pursuing my PhD in occupational therapy at
(06:15):
the University of Wisconsin, Milwaukee, which is actually also where I got my bachelor's
in occupational therapy and my master's in occupational therapy. So it has all come full
circle educationally. And I graduated with my master's in 2014. So I have been practicing
OT for just under 10 years. Wow. Talk about an expert in the field and also talk about
(06:38):
loyalty. I mean, you know, your bachelor's, your master's and your doctor.
Yes. Oh my God, I know. I never saw myself doing all three at the same university. Trust
me. But you know what? The universe works in strange ways. You need a graduation award
just for like a loyalty award. Just for being in the same place all three, right? That's
right. That's right. You know, I will say that the university has treated me very well
(07:03):
and I am happy to be a loyal student to them. If anybody's looking at Midwest colleges,
I am happy to say the crisis at UW-Wass. Tonight is really just a night where we celebrate
your profession and everything that your profession stands for. But before all of that, I wanted
to, I love asking people the inspirations behind the undertaking of where do you are
(07:25):
now, right? Wanted to know like where did this inspiration come from? Is it family,
friends, personal experience? And I know you had a different first major, right? A bachelor's.
I wanted to know like the journey through that. So I always tell people this and I'm
old enough to say this out. The overall arching theme of this is listen to your mother because
your mother knows that. But it's true because moms, they see things in us that we don't
(07:51):
always see in ourselves. And so I do have my bachelor's in English from the University
of Delaware. And the first five years of my adult life, I actually worked as a television
news producer and I was so convinced this was going to be my life's work. I was going
to be a producer. I was going to work for like CBS News. This is going to be my huge
(08:11):
calling. Well, it just didn't work out. It was, I think, a personality thing. I wanted
to be around more people. I wanted to be out helping people. I wanted to be out really
getting to know people. I'm very much an extrovert. So being in a newsroom all day was just not
what I could do for the rest of my life. So I quit and just went back to square one and
(08:34):
was like, what am I going to do with the rest of my life? And my mom said, have you thought
about occupational therapy? And I said, no, why would I think about that? And she said,
well, don't you remember when you were in high school and you did your volunteer work
at the pediatric convalescent center? And I said, yeah. And she said, you were so happy
(09:01):
when you were doing that. And you spoke so highly of that experience and the people that
you worked with. And I just really see you being an OT. And coincidentally, my mom and
dad both work for UWM. UWM has one of the top OT programs in the country. And I said,
(09:22):
okay, sure. OT. Why not? Well, you know what? It's really not that easy. If you have a BA,
it does not translate to a BS. So in order to even apply to the program, I had to go
back and I had to take three semesters of anatomy, biology, statistics, and physics,
and all stuff that I had never done as an undergraduate and did not see myself doing.
(09:49):
But you know what? I studied my butt off. I got through it. I applied to the program,
got into the program, then there were three and a half more years of school. But I did
it. And I have never thought twice about it. Even when I was in school, even in the hardest
phases of it, like the finals and the late nights and all of that, it always felt like
(10:12):
this was what I was supposed to be doing this entire time. And it might have taken me around
my way to get there. But I did get there. And that's the end of it. Yeah. We are here.
Someone told me before, it doesn't matter how long it took to get to somewhere or the
detours that occur, as long as you get to where you're supposed to be and where you
want to be. Right. And it's just so funny that you're like, oh, and I have to add three
(10:36):
more years to this. And then now you went even back where you're a doctorate. So you
decided to go back even for more. And I can't imagine like more late nights and studying
and caring for people, which is sometimes not the easiest thing to do. Right. And I
guess we'll talk more about that too. But you know, this whole journey that took you,
(10:59):
I guess, full circle now to thanks to mom as well. Right. And all of the sacrifices
that need to be made, especially in the doctoral program. Do you have any regrets in pursuing
the field of O.T.? So, you know, when I went back for the O.T. program the first time,
I used to say, oh my God, why didn't I do this the first time I should have been doing
(11:23):
this when I was 18, 19, 20, 21? Why am I doing this now? And you know, honestly, I was in
my early, like I did this when I was 26, 27. It's not like I was that old. So to keep that
in mind. But at the time I felt so old because I was a returning adult student. And so I
did have that in mind sometimes where I was like, why didn't I do this the first time?
(11:45):
Why didn't I figure this out? But now looking back on it, I was a different student at 26,
27 than I was at 18, 19. And honestly, I would not have gotten as much out of it then as
I did when I did the program. So the big regret, but it's not a real regret. Yeah, yeah. Beautiful.
(12:11):
As an occupational therapy master's prepared, right? You're already taking care of patients,
not only clinical rotations, but in your job as well, right? I'm very curious what led
you to the decision of actually, I want to do a PhD in O.T. and can you also explain
what encapsulates the doctoral training for O.T. as well? Yeah, absolutely. So the whole
(12:33):
time that I was in the BSMS program, I was really interested in research. I'm a huge
medical model person. I love working in the hospital. I love working with very sick, very
injured people. That is my favorite. I just love doing that. And so the whole time that
I was a student, I would collaborate with my professors or my fieldwork instructors,
(12:58):
my CIs, things like that. And because they were all doing research and I really wanted
to do research as well. And I really wanted to get on board with their research. And they
were so willing to walk me through their process, let me help out in any way, shape or form.
I actually have my name on posters and presentations from the time that I was an undergraduate
(13:20):
and a master's student. And that was because I reached out to them and I really made that
effort. So then I would do that and I would go to AOTA and other conferences and I would
meet and network with people and they would say, well, why don't you come into your PhD?
Why don't you, you know, here's my card, keep in touch, let's do this later. I needed to
practice. I needed to go out in the field and I needed to be an occupational therapist
(13:42):
for a little bit. Not just because making money is nice and having a salary and all.
A steady income is always good, especially after three and a half years. Student worker
money, like it's not even comparable. I really needed to get out in the field. But also to
show that the education that I received, that I was going to do something with it, not just
(14:06):
go straight from one to another, to another, that I was going to take that clinical education
and I was going to go practice it. And I have no regrets about that. I love practicing.
Once I figured out the setting that I wanted to practice in, it was just like, okay, here
we go. Like, and we're off and I love it. I love it. I would go back tomorrow. I don't
have time to go back tomorrow. But I would go back tomorrow. I love that. Yeah. Like
(14:30):
you said, right? I think the things that's just meant for you and the things that you
like to do and that makes you happy, right? It comes really in full circle and everything
just interconnects everything you've done throughout your bachelor's and master's and
then now in your doctorate level of education and training, right? I can't imagine. Yeah.
And you know, part of what I'm doing right now, the reason I'm not in clinical practice
(14:53):
right now is because I'm also teaching in the program and I'm teaching phys rehab one,
phys rehab two, and then phys rehab two, part B. And I'm also teaching OT in acute care.
And so I really do have this wonderful opportunity to take what I learned in that clinical setting
and show my students how to do things. And yeah, I will admit that there's always a little
(15:16):
bit of imposter syndrome where I'm like, you think I know this? Like I have enough that
I can tell people what to do, but I do. Turns out I do. And that's another thing that's
really nice about being teaching and studying in the program that I graduated from is that
they know me because it's a small enough program that I kept in touch with everybody and they
(15:40):
all kind of kept tabs on me. And so when I came back, it was just like, yeah, Emily's
been in the hospital for like 10 years. Why don't we just have her teach? Like, okay.
You've been talking a lot about your education as an OT and you know, someone somewhere out
in the world where there's no OTs in their country, they're like, what the heck are we
talking about? Even within America, right? In our health care system. I always say that
(16:04):
OTs are like the hidden gems of health care, right? I worked in cardiac surgery, stepped
down in the hospital years ago, and we've had OTs, you know, working with our patients
post open heart surgeries or post heart attacks and strokes and stuff like that. And actually,
my cousin is an OT student in California. The world of OT, I feel like it's this, like
(16:27):
I said, it's like this hidden gem and there's people who have heard about it and there's
people who may not know what profession entails and encapsulates. I wanted to ask you, not
only as an OT, but also as a professor as well and go into the highest level of training
and your PhD program, what is occupational therapy? What is the whole premise of this
(16:53):
profession in this field? I love it.
Oh, you're going to be talking about my elevator speech. Yes, we have been told to practice
our elevator speeches. So I will say the way that I explain OT to patients and families
is that you know what physical therapy is. Physical therapy is going to get you up, they're
going to get you moving, they're going to get you walking, they're going to have you
(17:15):
doing stairs, so on and so forth. Well, you can't walk into an elevator naked and where
are you going to go to the bathroom? Because PT is not going to teach you how to do that
and they're not going to teach you how to get dressed. And actually, my program, we
just had an interprofessional event with the OT students and the PT students. And I had
(17:35):
some PT students say to me, I have never seen that equipment before. They had never seen
a Reacher. They hadn't seen a sock aid or shoehorn or any of that stuff. So PT is much
more biomechanics. It's very much kinesiology based. They have a wonderful way of explaining
to patients how the body works, what muscles work to get in tandem, antagonist and agonist
(18:01):
and all those kinds of things. And I think that is fantastic. And I love PT's. Some of
my best friends are PT's and OT's I think are much more holistic in what we do. Like
we're not just toileting for the sake of toileting. We are toileting because you live by yourself
(18:22):
and you used to do this by yourself and you're 35 years old and something sudden and random
happened and it's a huge setback and we want to get you back to where you were. And you
know what I say 30, it doesn't really matter. Like no matter what age you are, we want to
get you back to what you were doing and we want to get you to where you want to be and
(18:42):
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When I started promoting our episode today, I think most of the questions that I received
was what is the difference between an OT and a PT? I feel like in the hospital, especially
in the hospital, my patient could be with an OT and the reporter would be like, oh,
they're with PT today. So I feel like... They stare at me all the time. It drives me nuts.
(22:15):
Yes. And I'm like, I think they're with the OT today. Yeah, so... Well, thank you for
standing up for us. I appreciate that. This is why I've always wanted to have an OT. I
thank you for being here because I really do believe that we need to show candidacy
of both professions, which are so different and so intricate, right? I mean, I remember,
(22:41):
I think when I started out as a new nurse and I also was naive about the difference
between PT's and OTs, I would talk to the OTs all the time. It's like, can you tell
me when do I call you versus when I call the PT? And I remember one of the OTs, it's like,
you know, like PT is good with the biomechanics, but you call me when it comes to a lot of
(23:03):
the activities of daily living, right? Like how is this person going to eat, to use the
utensils? You know, the very miniscule and very finite things that actually just makes
the whole quality of life of a person, right? Like the ability to, am I able to use my hands
today to, you know, that I can actually put the spoon to my mouth or, you know, stuff
(23:26):
like that. And I think that was just a beautiful explanation and your elevator just so which
I love. And you know, basically the premise of this is a lot of restoration, right? Like
restoring what people may have lost, like any qualities in their movements or even cognitive
stuff as well, right? What do you think are the skills and qualities and maybe personalities
(23:49):
that one should have or exercises and OT? It's so funny that you say that. I have had
this long simmering research topic in my head, which is to give potential PT students and
OT students personality tests, like Enneagram exams and see where they score. Because I
(24:10):
honestly feel like there are different personalities that do OT and PT. I really do. And PT's will
say this as well. I'm not being biased. I have heard my PT friends say this, that OT's
are the empaths. And it's almost to our detriment in a lot of ways. It's like, we shoulder your
burdens. We see the person in that, that we don't just see a patient, we don't just see
(24:34):
a body. We see a person who had hopes and dreams and loves and likes and losses and
so on and so forth. And we really want to get to the bottom of that and discover who
you are and use that knowledge of you as a person to help you recover. Right. And again,
it's almost to our detriment because we feel things very deeply and we do take on a lot
(24:58):
of people's troubles. Just who we are. And also it's to our detriment because we will
let you talk forever. You can tell us all your stories because we've heard your story.
I will tell you. In the hospital, I think I would make rounds with my patients and then
one of them will be with the OT. When I come back to the rounds, they're still there. I'm
like, you're not done. She's like, yeah, she was telling me her whole life story. And I
(25:22):
was like, this is amazing. And you know what? It doesn't bother me though, because if you're
like in the bathroom, if you're in the shower, if you're doing something and you're talking
to me, well, I don't care. Like to me, making that connection with the person and them feeling
like they can tell me their stories, it makes a better connection. It makes a better patient
practitioner dynamic, I think. And then they're not going to turn me away. They might turn
(25:46):
everybody else away, but when I show up, they're going to be like, that's the girl who let
me talk for two hours yesterday. It's very important in the sense that, like you said,
the person in the bed is not just their diagnosis or the numbers of this or that, but it's an
actual person. It's someone's dad or mom or family member. And the stories and their backgrounds
(26:09):
give rise to the reason why it's so important for someone to learn how to be able to dress
again, themselves again, right? Or to turn on the faucet or to be able to use their hands
to eat again or just complete any ADLs. It's just such a beautiful and I can't imagine
how endearing and I guess so rewarding it is to be able to care for patients in that
(26:36):
very, very deep and intimate level, right? Yes, I agree. And you know what? That's part
of the reason that I really like acute care as the setting, because to me, it's the ability
to get to that person right after what could have been the worst day of their entire life.
And if my presence in some way, shape or form makes that day better, that's awesome. That's
(27:02):
just like everything to me. Yeah, and I wanted to ask you, I know you work in acute care
and you basically gave a sneak peek of what you do as an acute care OT. I was very curious,
are there like different disciplines within OT itself or specialties where you can work
in if you could tell us some of those? Yes. Oh my God, there's so many. There's so many.
(27:23):
I don't even know I'm going to be able to remember all of that. So the big ones I would
say are acute care. So you would have acute care, which is a hospital. Then you have inpatient
acute rehab. So that's people who can tolerate the three plus hours a day of OT, PT speech.
If they can't tolerate that or for some reason, they're not able to get into acute rehab,
(27:45):
because that's pretty competitive. Then you have skilled nursing. So you don't do three
hours a day. At one point you might've done three hours a day because of insurance, but
that's not really the case anymore. So you don't have to be able to tolerate that much
therapy. After that, there's outpatient therapy and there's home health. There is pediatrics,
but pediatrics can be inpatient acute pediatrics. It can be inpatient rehab. And then of course,
(28:11):
you have outpatient PEDs. You also have birth to three for pediatrics. And actually some
states after kids age out of birth to three, but they're not at school full time. In New
York, especially, there's this weird little gray area where you can do four year olds
and five year olds as home health visits, but insurance covers it, but I'm not quite
sure what it's covered under. And then you have schools and you also have mental health.
(28:35):
But under mental health, you can have like hospital based mental health. You can have
outpatient mental health, like community clinics, group homes. OTs practice in things like eating
disorders. They practice in pelvic rehab. That's a new one because that used to be
almost solely PTs, but now OTs are starting to do it. I mean, there are things you can
(28:57):
get your certificate in. Like you can be a neurospecialist. You can be an orthopedic
person. You can be a hands. You can do pelvic health. Like I just said, there's so many.
There really are. The one that I'm gunning for, so I have enough hours that I could be
certified in Fizz rehab. I just have to go through the steps to do it, which I haven't
(29:18):
done because I just have so many hours in the day. They're not filled ever. But I feel
like it would be good for my resume to have that on there. So I should do that. And then
the other one that I really want to do that everybody says I'm insane for wanting to do,
I want to be a certified wound practitioner. That is what I really want to do. But in order
to do that, I have to go back into clinical practice because I have to have like a thousand
(29:40):
hours of hands. Yeah, it's nuts. But I still want to do it. I really, really do. Because
I'm hoping that wherever I end up teaching, I finish my PhD, I actually want to do a wounds
class. And if I have a certificate, then I can be like, yeah.
I mean, those are a lot of places that an OT can work. I think there was one time my
(30:03):
cousin, who again is in OT school, and I think my uncle and auntie are talking about like,
oh, where can you work? And he's like, you can work in so many places. And it's true,
like different branches of medicine, where like the hospital base, home health base,
and rehab and all of those, even the more niche parts, right? Like hands and pelvic.
(30:23):
Well, I wanted to focus on your work as an acute care OT, right? What would the day in
the life look like? The bread and butter. Like if there's top three reasons why a patient
in the hospital would need the help of an acute care OT, what would be those?
So my day starts out, I walk into the hospital, I clock in, get a big cup of coffee, and then
(30:47):
I sit down and I start looking at my schedule and prioritizing who I'm going to see in a
day. So you usually have like eight to 10 patients on your list. And I would rewind
and say, you're going to have a ton of evaluations because people come in overnight and first
thing in the morning and you got to see them right away. And then the other thing is that
(31:08):
productivity, which rehab has, the expectations are much lower in the acute care setting because
they know we've got dialysis, we've got x-ray, we've got respiratory, we've got medication,
we've got everybody coming in and going surgery, being in the PACU, whatever. So the expectations
are much lower, which is kind of nice, but you still need to do your best to try and
(31:30):
see everybody. So you go through your list, you prioritize who you're going to see. And
then I do a chart review for everybody so that I have an idea of why everybody's there.
I have a very shockingly good memory for that kind of stuff. Like a lot of people will only
chart review one or two people at a time. I will literally go through the 10 people
and at the end of the day, I'd still be able to tell you why they were there and what they
(31:53):
were there for. Like it's crazy. I just have a memory for that kind of stuff. So I like
to chart review and I actually, all things considered, do a pretty deep chart review
on everybody because I find, and I'm sure you would agree with me on this, that there's
stuff in a patient chart, you think it's going to be on their admission, but it's not on
(32:15):
their admission. Like, oh, this patient is here for a chest pain? Okay, that's strange.
And then you go like three pages in and it's like, patient was just here a week ago and
had like, yeah, like had a patient like, okay, well that would have been good too, why was
that not on their initial intake? So yeah, so you got to dig deep in the chart and then
(32:38):
you get up on the floor, you find the nurses and you just confer with the nurses, okay,
how they do overnight? How are they doing this morning? Do they need any medication?
Is it okay if we go in and see them? All that really basic stuff, but you do need to check
with nursing. I would never go in a patient room without checking with nursing. You know
what, honestly, I've never tried it. I've never ever had that instinct to just go in
(33:04):
a patient room. Yeah, no, no, no. I'm always going to protect myself. That's advice to
everybody out there. Always check with your nurses. So I check with the nurse, then I
go in the patient room. If it's an evaluation, usually I'm in there for like probably 45
minutes to an hour, just a general treatment. It's usually 30 minutes unless on discharge
day I try, I just wrote about this on my DS for dressing post, that on discharge day,
(33:31):
if I have a patient who's going wherever they're going, it doesn't matter if they're going
to the next level of rehab or if they're going home or what the deal is. I always do a full,
as full an ADL day as possible as I can with them. I get them up. I'm there with them
to instruct them in their bathing. We get them dressed, like full clothes the whole
(33:53):
nine yards and nursing is pulling on board with us. I think it's wonderful that they're
so supportive of this. I just think it's really nice to be able to give patients that send
off because when you're in the hospital, you don't get to bathe. You don't get to brush
your teeth most days. You don't get to feel like yourself. And my heart gets so sad when
I would see patients come in to skilled nursing and they would still be in their hospital
(34:14):
brief and a hospital gown and they would be carrying their belongings in a plastic bag.
And they're scared because they don't know what the next stage holds. They don't know
anybody where they're going, all of this. And so to me, it just feels like it's the
one thing that I can do in my job to make them feel comfortable. So that's just my little
(34:35):
discharge thing that I do for them. Otherwise we get up, we move, we walk, we walk around
the room, we work on ADLs, we work on functional tolerance, we work on balance, we work on
all that stuff. And then I always try and make it every two patients I stop and I chart.
Otherwise I will completely forget what I did with them. So you have to do that. The
(34:59):
problem is a lot of times I'll run into PTs who are like, Hey, we have this evaluation
together and I read that they're max assist times two and nursing hasn't gotten them out
of bed because doctor hasn't wanted them to get out of bed. So on and so forth. So then
that it's like, okay, well, I'm just going to put a pin in my documentation because I'm
not getting max assist of two person out of bed by myself.
(35:20):
Yeah. I mean, I think it's just so beautiful, like what you do, right? Even upon discharge,
like letting them adjust themselves or change themselves. I think it also confers this sense
of self confidence, right? This sense of independence that, oh, you know, I can finally do it. Right?
I feel like especially in the hospital, right? People are patients are stripped of their
(35:43):
usual daily activities, right? Or let's say someone had a heart attack or a stroke or
post surgery. There's that lag phase where they can't do things on their own, right?
And the ability of the OTs to be able to like slowly piece all of those together again and
confer again that sense of independence that patients feel good about themselves, right?
(36:07):
They don't feel sorry for themselves that they can't do the things that they used to
be able to do. Right? I think it's such a beautiful, beautiful thing. Right? And along
with that, I wanted to ask, because a lot of the work you do is again, like trying to
train all of those back together. It's a lot of physical work, right? And it's a lot of
(36:28):
mental work as well. You know, like I think bypassing that mental block or mental fear
of, I don't know, like for the patients, like, I don't know if I can do this. Right? I wanted
to know what's your thoughts on OT? Is there a demarcation line between what you can do
for the patients versus what medications and maybe surgery could be to help them regain
(36:50):
the things again?
Yeah, that's a very good question. I am actually, I love medicine. I love pills. I love infusions.
I love injections. I love surgery. I love all of that. You will never ever find me being
like, no, no, no, no, no, the doctor said you should do that. You should hold off. Like,
no, I'm not, I'm not a doctor. I mean, eventually, that's a PhD doctor, not an MD. That's different.
(37:15):
I would never try to supersede what a doctor says, especially a specialist. If your orthopedic
surgeon tells you something, my treatment plan is going to be in line with what the
doctor is doing. If that makes sense. Yes, of course, we collaborate with the doctors.
(37:39):
I think that's much more common lately than it was in the very beginning. No, we were
very collaborative with all the doctors. And I love that about our job. That said, the
collaboration is they had ex surgery. They were diagnosed with this. They're on this
medicine. This is their medical course of care. How does OT incorporate into that? I
(38:06):
don't think from where I'm sitting as an acute care OT, I would never tell a patient
in the hospital not to listen to their doctor. I might say something like if they were like,
oh, my PCP said this, or the hospitalist said this, I might say, hey, you know what, if
they're recommending something about a very specific part of your body, it might be in
(38:29):
your best interest to seek out a specialist. Right? Like if they were newly diagnosed with
diabetes and they're like, oh, yeah, I'm just going to check in with my primary care later,
I'd say, you know, I think an endocrinologist might not be a bad idea or something like
that. You know, I think that to me is where I can best assist as far as making a medical
(38:52):
suggestion is, or I might just reinforce what the nurses said or what the doctors said.
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Interdisciplinary team, right? Like it's just an interconnection of everyone's expertise,
right? Because obviously OTs are experts of this, that physicians may not be or that nurses
are not, right? And I think every member of the healthcare community, especially the healthcare
(42:18):
team for the patient, are also like advocates of the patients as well. And for sure, especially
in your bigot of experience, you probably had times where like, I don't think that's
in line with what I would do for the patient, right? And be like, can we try this or can
I suggest this and stuff like that, right? And I think like you said, it's one of the
most beautiful things about the OT profession, the teamwork, right? Like everyone just blends
(42:42):
together their expertise and all of that. And I wanted to ask, what are the other best
parts of the OT profession for you? What do you love most about the OT field?
This sounds so lame, but I love working with people. I love, love, love working with people.
I didn't know that about myself for a very long time. When I was younger, I was very
(43:06):
shy. I was very introverted and actually did not really become much of an extrovert until
last couple of years of college. And then all of a sudden it was like, I hit my stride,
something clicked and I was just like, people are amazing. This is so much fun. And I really
feel like these days I have the kind of personality where I will just go out and make friends.
(43:31):
And so for me, when I go to work in the hospital, like so for my last job in acute care, I was
a float pool employee. I had pretty much full time hours, but I went to four different campuses
within the same hospital facility. But every single hospital that I went to, I was like,
Hey, I get to see someone today. Hey, oh my God. And I would be like, I'm coming to your
(43:54):
campus today. Let me know if we have anybody in common. Oh, don't forget. We'll have lunch
today, things like that. And it's awesome. And it's not just the coworkers. It's not
just my fellow rehab therapists, it's the patients. Because if I don't like people,
what are you doing working in healthcare? My God, I can't figure that one out. I can
(44:14):
understand getting burned out of it, but I am not burned out on it yet. I, and now that
I get to teach, it's the same thing that I get to go and not just my fellow professors,
because they're awesome as well. But the students, I get to go and I get to sit and teach, not
just teach in front of students, but that I get to interact with the students, you know,
(44:36):
after class hours around campus, things like that. And some of them are on here right now.
So that's nice. Yes. And, and that just makes me happy that I get to be with people who
know what I do, who like what I do, who value me and value my skill set. I just think that's
(44:57):
wonderful. And also, I told you, I love medicine. And so being able to be around it, even though
I'm not an MD or a DO or an RN or an NP or any of that, I, well, I'm an OT, right? So
that's still medical. And being able to have this knowledge and feeling confident with
the knowledge and feeling confident enough to be like, this is this and that is that.
(45:19):
And this is how we do this. And this is what we were doing. So I'm sorry for that. It feels
good to know what you're talking about. Yeah. And that just comes back. Again, like I said,
the difference that you make in people's lives, like even to the most intricate and to the
most complex, the things that I feel like healthcare is all about the numbers and the
grandiose, right? Like, oh, injections this, oh, surgery that, oh, procedure this. But
(45:44):
things that the patients remember the most are those intimate moments of when I go back
home, will I be able to open the doorknob on my house? Will I be able to brush my teeth
again when I get home? Will I be able to do this and not feel like I'm a burden to my
family? Right? And I think those are the things that, you know, your profession of occupational
therapy really fulfills and really makes possible for the patients. And I really do believe
(46:09):
it's such a beautiful, beautiful thing. Right? And I think with that, I wanted to know if
there is a pre OT student or an OT student listening to us today or someone who's been
in the profession for the decade and continuing on in the field and has so much love and passion
for the profession. What would be your message to those students today?
(46:33):
Two parts to that. The first is when you were talking about what patients remember, what
they take away from their experience in the hospital or the medical setting, whatever,
there's an expression that I've seen and I'm going to fumble it, I know, but it's something
like medicine adds years to your life, but therapy adds life to your years. And so I
(46:54):
really feel like that's just, that's just an excellent representation. Like that's an
excellent summation of what it is that we do. So that's number one to the potential
OTs out there. That's what I would say. Think about all the amazing impacts that we, we
have the ability to have on people and really, you know, reflecting on that. And then also
(47:16):
that post COVID in medicine, there's been a lot of burnout and I fully, fully recognize
that and it's still there. It's still there. It's unfortunate. And it cuts across all medical
fields really. It cuts across nursing and doctors and therapy and everybody. It just
does that sad. Don't only look at the bad, right? Like, it's like a Yelp review. This
(47:40):
is, this is what I think that people only tell you when they have a terrible experience.
They don't tell you when things were good because if everything was good, they just
don't think about it. They're just like, yeah, it was just another day because nothing bad
happened. It's when bad things start to happen that people chime in and they get mad and
(48:02):
they say frustrating, sad things. And, and that makes me sad. And I worry that people
are going to hear that potentialities are going to hear that and they're going to be
like, well, why would I do that? That sounds terrible because I need to tell you it's not
all like that. It really isn't. I would say the good days far outnumber the bad days.
They really do. And it's not just my outlook on it because I love it and I'm not leaving
(48:26):
and I want to continue to do this for the rest of my life. Really. I just think that
you need to make sure that you look for the good in it. Don't just listen to the complainers
out there. Even though that should have a reason and I'm not saying that they don't.
Everybody has a reason to complain. I am just saying that's one day in a life. That's one
(48:50):
day in a career.
Yeah. That also entails to the fact that, like we said, right, a lot of burnout and
that's happening with you, especially with this whole COVID thing, right? And there are
certainly bad days during work and especially dealing with people, right? It's not all glory
and sunshine, right? There's things that we want to make possible for our patients, but
(49:15):
may not be true all the time, right? And I think a big part of that is grounding yourself
and having forms of self care and decompression out of work, right? And like replenishing
yourself. Yeah. I wanted to ask how do you decompress out of work and you maintain this
excitement being an OT?
So my ways of decompressing are number one, I've always been very fortunate to be surrounded
(49:39):
by amazing coworkers. There has not been a single place that I've worked that I have
not had a core group of amazing coworker friends that at lunchtime. I'll say my first job,
I worked in longterm acute care in New York City and at yes, and at lunchtime, the therapy
(50:00):
gym would be locked. They would lock the doors. No patients could come in. No doctors could
come in. No nurses can come in. It was just the therapy staff. And we would sit together
at lunch every day and we would just decompress. It was amazing. We had this whole routine
where like one person would bring in ice cream for the week. And so we would each have like
(50:23):
a little Dixie cup of ice cream and we would just sit there and we would talk and we, and
it was amazing. And I didn't have that at every other hospital, but every hospital I
worked at, I had a group of people that I knew were on the same page as me. That as
much as we would be like, Oh my God, can you believe such and such happened? We all loved
our jobs. It was just our way of letting off steam. So that, which I highly recommend,
(50:50):
I am really into orange theory. That is my exercise. I'm a huge exerciser. I love it.
I've loved it my entire life. It's just the endorphins, the serotonin, what have you.
It's just so awesome. And then the other thing, I just like to be outside, which is funny
to say because I'm not a hiker. I'm not a hiker. I'm not any of those things. I like
(51:16):
a city girl who likes to be outside in the city. When we lived in New York, I could go
a week without getting on any kind of transportation unless it was like absolutely necessary. Like
if there's time constraint, I just like walking up and down the street. I like seeing people.
I like putting my earbuds in and I just like being outside, breathing fresh air. Yeah.
(51:38):
Honestly, it can be so therapeutic walking the streets of New York and seeing all the
buildings and just like, you know, New Yorkers, they couldn't give a crap about anyone else
walking with them. Well, and that's the thing that's nice that you don't participate. Somebody
says, question's not a hiker. Can confirm. That is so true. I am not a hiker, but I can
(52:00):
walk New York City blocks. Oh my God. Once I walked, we are, so our apartment was on 82nd.
I was walking from Battery Park all the way up to our apartment. Just love walking streets
and streets. Right. It's, it's just, yeah. And all those endorphins too, like you said,
just walking and just seeing stuff. Yeah. Well, I'm glad to hear that, you know, you
(52:24):
have a lot of forms of decompression as well, which is very necessary, especially with our
work dealing with people. Right. Oh, and don't get me wrong. I also, I say the older I get,
the more high maintenance I become. So there are, you know, hair appointments and massages
and you know, getting my, I have a facial tomorrow. Oh yes. I love it. And it's so necessary.
(52:51):
Oh my gosh. Yes. The hospital air is and the hospital lights are really brutal and especially
like, you know, the whole, the whole past few years in a room asking and just breaking
out and just everything. And I didn't get masked. I mean, my issue was the goggles would
press against my eyes so hard that I would get lines right here. Yeah. We all had our
(53:15):
own forms of reactions to our PPE. Right. Yeah. I learned so much today about only the
feel of the OOT. But just again, just reinforcing the beauty again in this hidden gem and healthcare.
And I mean, I couldn't think of, you know, any other paradigm of the world of occupational
(53:36):
therapy, but you and your passion and your love for the field really emanates through
the screen. Even though we're like thousands of miles away. I'm so grateful that you joined
me tonight for our conversation. Oh, it's nice. Of course. And of course, happy OOT
month to you and to everybody. Thank you so much. We hope you have a great rest of the
(53:59):
week. Bye. Bye. Bye.
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