July 27, 2025 • 5 mins
In this bonus episode of the Friends With Money podcast, Money's Michelle Baltazar chats with David Higgins, CTO at Eftsure, about the alarming rise in a scam known as ghost tapping.
Higgins explains what the new scam is, what to watch out for, and how to protect yourself.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the Friends with Money podcast, brought to you
by Money Magazine, creating financial freedom for Australians since nineteen
ninety nine.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Welcome to Friends with Money. I'm your host, Michelle Baltazar.
Thanks for joining us for this bonus podcast. We have
our guest David Higgins, who is the chief Technology officer
at f Shore, a leading payment fraud prevention platform. He's
here to help us understand this very concerning phenomenon called
ghost tapping. David, thanks for joining us.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
Thanks mishall, great to be here. Okay, so what is
ghost tapping?
Speaker 4 (00:42):
Ghost tapping is when someone will simulate a tap or
a swap or something on your phone without you knowing
about it. So you can imagine that the things that
people could do on your phone, with the apps that
you have installed and with the access that we all
generally have on our phone, will be by interacting with
your phone and swiping and tapping. They can simulate that
those apps are doing things without you're actually doing anything yourself.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
That is scary and we are definitely now a tapping culture.
We tap when we commute, we tap when we get
our coffees. It's next to us. So is this something
that happens in the city of course, because you're in
crowded places or it's pretty much anyone can be a target.
Speaker 4 (01:24):
Anyone can be a target. If you've got a mobile phone,
then some of the ways that they can pray on
you is by doing so in places where you would
least suspect it. But having said that, yes, if it's
going to be through some of the ways that ghost
tapping is done, then it can be more prevalent in
a public area only because there's lots of other people
around with mobile phones. And if someone's going to try
and do an attack and see who they can infiltrate,
(01:45):
then that's going to be easier if there are more
people around.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
And say, if you're going on holidays and you're in
a foreign country, can this happen as well they can
still access your mobile phone or they can still ghost tap.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (01:58):
Absolutely, I mean we live in a global me it's
great that we can take our mobile phones wherever we are.
I love that I can just simply take the mobile
phone that I have overseas and get instant access everywhere.
But as long as you have that access, then you're
going to be You're going to be suspect to these attacks.
And the thing is, I think some people might feel that, well,
if I go overseas and I don't have my phone
(02:18):
connected to the internet, for example, that means that I'm unprotected.
But some of the attacks that can be done mean
that that's not necessarily the case. If your mobile phone
is on with certain settings on, then you're definitely still
going to be a target.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
So how are hackers exploiting this for financial gain? And
how complex can these scams get?
Speaker 3 (02:38):
Very complex?
Speaker 4 (02:38):
These are not people that are there sort of sitting
in a basement seeing what they can do. These are
fairly sophisticated criminal enterprises and this is their job, and
this is their job, and it's horrible to say, but
they are very very good at it. And it's quite
prevalent because if someone is going to defraud someone or
get some funds or something from somewhere, then they need
to make sure that they can get those funds far
(02:59):
away from that original location as possible and into bank
accounts that then become very difficult to trace.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
And so what can people do to protect themselves?
Speaker 4 (03:08):
You know, unfortunately or fortunately, depending on how you look
at it, the ways that you protect yourself really haven't
changed for a long long time, whether it was some
of the original scams that came out prior to mobile
phones or scams that have been around since. And it
really is just knowing about your mobile phone, knowing what
you have installed, knowing what needs updating, and making sure
that you do update, making sure that you're not jumping
(03:30):
onto applications or downloading applications from a source that isn't
an official Google Player or Apple I Store or something
like that. But even then you need to be careful
and ask yourself should I actually install this application? I
would always start with do I absolutely need to install
this application? We are bombarded with advertisements on all different
applications that tell us that this game looks really fun,
or here's a way to make a bit more money,
(03:51):
or here's a way to use your mobile phone for
some sort of in a good purpose. When you're not
actually using it, download that, and as you said, we're
all too quick to say, I click on that, and
then I can uninstall that. Well, Unfortunately, sometimes even when
you've uninstalled that, it's still not going to make a difference.
You're still going to be susceptible. If you've you've if
you've injected some sort of malware onto your phone. The
other thing is is because these can be you can
(04:14):
have malware put onto your phone through ways that don't
require you to actually download something. Then just being aware
of your surroundings. If you're somewhere where you feel like
your mobile phone or your credit cards might be in danger,
then that's probably not a good area to be. And
so the ways to protect yourself haven't really changed after
all this time. But the problem is that the methods
of attacking have changed. If you think about it, a
(04:36):
person who wants to compromise your mobile phone or your
credit card or defraud you, they can try millions of times.
They've really only got to be successful once or twice.
But if you get attacked a million times, you've got
to be successful in thwarting that attack a million times,
because that one time that you're not could be that
one time that you my mobile phone gets compromised.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
Well, there you have it. You've heard it from David.
Really truly just have to be vigilant. David, thanks for
sharing your insights with us today.
Speaker 4 (05:05):
Thanks mishe great be here.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
Thank you for listening to this bonus episode. Until next
Dummashelle Baltasar Bye for now.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
Thanks for listening to the Friends with Money podcast. For credible,
independent and easy to understand financial commentary, visit moneymag dot
com dot au. Please remember that the views and opinions
expressed in this podcast are general in nature and further
independent advice and research based on your personal circumstances should
(05:35):
be sought before making an investment decision
Welcome to the Friends with Money podcast, brought to you
by Money Magazine, creating financial freedom for Australians since nineteen
ninety nine.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Welcome to Friends with Money. I'm your host, Michelle Baltazar.
Thanks for joining us for this bonus podcast. We have
our guest David Higgins, who is the chief Technology officer
at f Shore, a leading payment fraud prevention platform. He's
here to help us understand this very concerning phenomenon called
ghost tapping. David, thanks for joining us.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
Thanks mishall, great to be here. Okay, so what is
ghost tapping?
Speaker 4 (00:42):
Ghost tapping is when someone will simulate a tap or
a swap or something on your phone without you knowing
about it. So you can imagine that the things that
people could do on your phone, with the apps that
you have installed and with the access that we all
generally have on our phone, will be by interacting with
your phone and swiping and tapping. They can simulate that
those apps are doing things without you're actually doing anything yourself.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
That is scary and we are definitely now a tapping culture.
We tap when we commute, we tap when we get
our coffees. It's next to us. So is this something
that happens in the city of course, because you're in
crowded places or it's pretty much anyone can be a target.
Speaker 4 (01:24):
Anyone can be a target. If you've got a mobile phone,
then some of the ways that they can pray on
you is by doing so in places where you would
least suspect it. But having said that, yes, if it's
going to be through some of the ways that ghost
tapping is done, then it can be more prevalent in
a public area only because there's lots of other people
around with mobile phones. And if someone's going to try
and do an attack and see who they can infiltrate,
(01:45):
then that's going to be easier if there are more
people around.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
And say, if you're going on holidays and you're in
a foreign country, can this happen as well they can
still access your mobile phone or they can still ghost tap.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (01:58):
Absolutely, I mean we live in a global me it's
great that we can take our mobile phones wherever we are.
I love that I can just simply take the mobile
phone that I have overseas and get instant access everywhere.
But as long as you have that access, then you're
going to be You're going to be suspect to these attacks.
And the thing is, I think some people might feel that, well,
if I go overseas and I don't have my phone
(02:18):
connected to the internet, for example, that means that I'm unprotected.
But some of the attacks that can be done mean
that that's not necessarily the case. If your mobile phone
is on with certain settings on, then you're definitely still
going to be a target.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
So how are hackers exploiting this for financial gain? And
how complex can these scams get?
Speaker 3 (02:38):
Very complex?
Speaker 4 (02:38):
These are not people that are there sort of sitting
in a basement seeing what they can do. These are
fairly sophisticated criminal enterprises and this is their job, and
this is their job, and it's horrible to say, but
they are very very good at it. And it's quite
prevalent because if someone is going to defraud someone or
get some funds or something from somewhere, then they need
to make sure that they can get those funds far
(02:59):
away from that original location as possible and into bank
accounts that then become very difficult to trace.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
And so what can people do to protect themselves?
Speaker 4 (03:08):
You know, unfortunately or fortunately, depending on how you look
at it, the ways that you protect yourself really haven't
changed for a long long time, whether it was some
of the original scams that came out prior to mobile
phones or scams that have been around since. And it
really is just knowing about your mobile phone, knowing what
you have installed, knowing what needs updating, and making sure
that you do update, making sure that you're not jumping
(03:30):
onto applications or downloading applications from a source that isn't
an official Google Player or Apple I Store or something
like that. But even then you need to be careful
and ask yourself should I actually install this application? I
would always start with do I absolutely need to install
this application? We are bombarded with advertisements on all different
applications that tell us that this game looks really fun,
or here's a way to make a bit more money,
(03:51):
or here's a way to use your mobile phone for
some sort of in a good purpose. When you're not
actually using it, download that, and as you said, we're
all too quick to say, I click on that, and
then I can uninstall that. Well, Unfortunately, sometimes even when
you've uninstalled that, it's still not going to make a difference.
You're still going to be susceptible. If you've you've if
you've injected some sort of malware onto your phone. The
other thing is is because these can be you can
(04:14):
have malware put onto your phone through ways that don't
require you to actually download something. Then just being aware
of your surroundings. If you're somewhere where you feel like
your mobile phone or your credit cards might be in danger,
then that's probably not a good area to be. And
so the ways to protect yourself haven't really changed after
all this time. But the problem is that the methods
of attacking have changed. If you think about it, a
(04:36):
person who wants to compromise your mobile phone or your
credit card or defraud you, they can try millions of times.
They've really only got to be successful once or twice.
But if you get attacked a million times, you've got
to be successful in thwarting that attack a million times,
because that one time that you're not could be that
one time that you my mobile phone gets compromised.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
Well, there you have it. You've heard it from David.
Really truly just have to be vigilant. David, thanks for
sharing your insights with us today.
Speaker 4 (05:05):
Thanks mishe great be here.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
Thank you for listening to this bonus episode. Until next
Dummashelle Baltasar Bye for now.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
Thanks for listening to the Friends with Money podcast. For credible,
independent and easy to understand financial commentary, visit moneymag dot
com dot au. Please remember that the views and opinions
expressed in this podcast are general in nature and further
independent advice and research based on your personal circumstances should
(05:35):
be sought before making an investment decision
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