October 15, 2024 • 58 mins
Shasta and Lisa are new friends who have recently discovered they have differing political views from one another. And although they are voting differently from each other this election season, Shasta and Lisa have actually chosen to embrace their contrasting beliefs, and use them as an opportunity for growth and deeper connection with one another.
Throughout the episode, the friends discuss how they have sometimes feared being judged for their opinions, and how these fears often hinder them from speaking their minds in conversations. They talk about the importance of approaching sensitive topics with genuine curiosity, rather than a political agenda. And most importantly, they explore how healthy it can be to surround yourself with people who might have different viewpoints than you.
Tune into this third episode of Shasta’s political mini-series to hear an inspiring conversation about how new friendships can grow stronger by navigating difficult conversations with compassion and respect.
Connect with other listeners on our Mighty Networks community!
Join Shasta’s mailing list to be the first to know about upcoming episodes, friendship coaching, trips, and more: https://www.shastanelson.com/mailing-list.
Shasta’s books on belongingness and human connection:
- Friendships Don’t Just Happen!: The Guide to Creating a Meaningful Circle of GirlFriends
- Frientimacy: How to Deepen Friendships for Lifelong Health and Happiness
- The Business of Friendship: Making the Most of Our Relationships Where We Spend Most of Our Time
Connect with Shasta on her other platforms:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
We'll see you next time.
(00:28):
With over 60% of us feelinglonely on a regular basis and
way more of us wishing for justbetter relationships in general,
it is so time for us to beintentional in building the
friendships that will leave usfeeling fulfilled.
What's your first thought whenyou meet someone that you
initially like and then you findout they're on the other side of
(00:49):
the political spectrum?
It's usually a little bit ofdisappointment, a little bit of
judgment.
And that's because thatrelationship typically only has
three options.
One, we simply assume that wecan't be good friends because
we're both on opposite sides andwe go look for more like-minded
people.
That happens all the time.
Sometimes we stay in therelationship for whatever reason
(01:11):
and we end up having toughconversations and we leave
feeling judged and defensive,demeaned.
Maybe we have conflict.
Maybe we do things that leaveeach other feeling hurt.
That's never fun.
And that's why we often choosethe third path, which is, okay,
let's keep building thisfriendship and just avoid all
talk of the subject and justignore the fact that we are
(01:31):
voting differently.
But what if there's anotherpath?
I don't know.
I mean, I don't have the answersyet.
It's not a clear paved path,that's for sure.
But that doesn't mean it's notpossible.
Today, I'm inviting a newfriend, Lisa, to join me because
there's so much about her Ireally admire, even though I
don't like who she's voting forin this election.
But I'm curious if we can createa friendship that still feels
(01:53):
fulfilling, not just anexercise, but that feels
meaningful and fun, and yet alsodoesn't require either of us to
be hidden or to act like there'staboo subjects or that we can't
show up and share who we are andwhat we value.
I don't know.
Today, we're going to try tohave that conversation and see
if there's a possible route wecan go.
Thank you so much for joiningus.
(02:18):
Lisa, this is such a big honorthat you would say yes and come
join me in this really bigconversation because it's a hard
conversation to have even if wehad been friends for 20 years,
but you and I really have onlyknown each other for about a
year.
Is that true?
Yeah.
I think
SPEAKER_00 (02:35):
maybe almost, yeah, almost a year.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (02:38):
Yeah.
And we've only gotten togethermaybe four or five times in that
year.
And those times have beenamazing.
They've been really, reallybeautiful.
But we kind of at some pointsensed that we had different
politics.
And then we had a coffeerecently.
And I was talking about how Iwas feeling very convicted about
wanting to do this podcastseries on politics.
(02:59):
friendships and politicaldifferences.
And I had no intention of ushaving this conversation, but as
you and I kind of talked aboutit, I was like, oh my goodness,
this could be really, reallybeautiful if we could both show
up for this.
And we both felt a little scaredabout it, but here we are.
And I would just love to hearfrom you before we start, like
how you first sensed that wemight have different politics,
(03:20):
because we haven't really everhad a political conversation,
but how did you first sense thatwe had different views and how
did you feel about it when youfirst felt that?
SPEAKER_00 (03:28):
Yeah, that's a great question.
That's a really good question.
I think I go into most newrelationships now with a little
bit of a caution and almost likean assumption that we probably
do have different politics onlybecause that helps me with all
the things that I need toprotect within myself because of
what I personally have seenhappen in the world or
(03:51):
experienced.
I'm a very sensitive person, soI never want to make anyone
uncomfortable.
feel judged.
So it takes me a while toactually show up in a friendship
or any relationship and even sayanything about my my political
beliefs, which are complicated.
So it's like also very hard todescribe them and just like, oh,
(04:13):
I'm this, I'm that or I'm votingfor this person.
I'm voting for that person.
It's not that simple for me.
And so I know when we first met,you know, just thinking of like
the first deeper encounter thatwe had where three couples were
having dinner together andpolitics, I don't think it ever
even came up.
And it was such a beautifulconversation where we talked
(04:35):
about things that really didmatter to us.
And we went to those places ofvulnerability about values and
what's really important withouteven talking about who we're
going to go vote for on aballot.
And so that's I guess the answerto your question is that I
probably sensed, I think we'reall used to picking up on cues
(04:58):
from people like, oh, okay,they're probably a Republican or
they're probably a Democratbecause they just said that or
they just said that.
And I think there's certainthings that I tend to say in a
conversation that really domatter to me that probably let
people know at least where Istand on certain issues.
And then you can start to makean assumption, right?
(05:18):
I honestly don't.
Don't do that as much with otherpeople until it's really
obvious, because I just assumethat we're all good people.
We all want to be seen as goodpeople.
And I'm not gravitating towardspeople who are strongly
identified with either party atthis point in my life.
And if they are, that's usuallypretty much a turnoff.
(05:39):
on both sides for me.
If they're trying to push it onpeople, if that's what they talk
about, if they come from anemotional, strong place, I'm not
really drawn to thoserelationships.
So I think the fact that we hadthis dinner where we didn't even
talk about it, but we wentreally deep that told me the
kind of person you were ratherthan who's she gonna vote for.
SPEAKER_01 (06:00):
That's really beautiful.
Yeah, you are very thoughtful inhow you show up in the world and
very beautiful in that way.
You have a very beautiful aurathat never feels like it's
pushing anything on anybody.
I remember at some point, Ithink you were describing why
you moved to this community thatwe both live in and the reasons
you gave had to do with kind ofaround the vaccine and stuff.
(06:23):
And so you didn't say exactlywhere you were at on that.
But I think that was the firsttime I kind of was like, oh,
interesting.
I wonder if we're how we bothfeel about this thing.
And it felt like maybe it couldbe a little different.
but I didn't, it wasn'tsomething that we followed up on
and we didn't like have this bigconversation around it.
It was just became a data pointin my mind.
That was like one more thingthat I'm just kind of, you know,
(06:43):
when you're making new friends,you're collecting all this data,
like, okay, that's her husband.
Okay.
This is where they live.
Okay.
This was an amazingconversation.
Oh my goodness.
They love sourdough bread.
Like, okay, this is like, you'rejust kind of collecting all this
like data.
Right.
And it's like, okay.
And that thing came up and, andit just kind of gets put into
this folder, if you will, uh,for, as we're kind of building
our understanding of each other.
And, but really it was justrecently Thank you.
(07:18):
This is our first time we'rehaving this conversation where
we're actually saying like,okay, so now we know we both
have kind of been brave enoughto like unmask ourselves and
say, okay, we are voting verydifferently.
And we both feel like we'revoting our values and we both
have wonderful experiences witheach other.
And so why would we evenconsider being friends with
(07:38):
somebody who is so differentfrom us on this particular
issue?
And you kind of named a littlebit that we also were able to
have some really special momentsand we have some commonalities
in other areas, but maybe evenbefore we get started, what's
the advantage to having afriendship with someone who
doesn't have the same worldview?
Why are we even willing to try?
SPEAKER_00 (07:55):
That's a really good question.
I think when it comes to you andI, we do have a certain
emotional intelligence andability to hold each other with
care, compassion, and Andcuriosity.
And so because of who we are, Ithink it is worth it.
I think when people come from aplace of strong emotional
reaction, you do more harm thangood when you bring it up.
(08:17):
So that's why there's so manypeople who have this rule, like
there's no talking politics orreligion at the family dinner
table because...
A lot of people in this worlddon't have the ability to have
that conversation in a way thatencompasses respect for everyone
and respect for all beliefs.
And I know you and I, we do havethat ability.
(08:39):
And so for us, I believe it'sworth it.
And I think of this book thatChristopher, my husband, talks
about.
It's called The Wisdom ofCrowds.
And I think it's James Sarecki.
And the book talks about howcollective wisdom can change
actually be more accurate thanindividual expertise.
(09:01):
And if we don't have theseconversations, we can't really
get wiser.
We're living in a bubble andwe're not learning from each
other.
We're not finding thatcollective wisdom.
And I think that, so theanecdote in the book is that
there was this country fair backin the 19th century in England,
and people were asked to guessthe weight of a sow.
(09:23):
Nobody guessed the right weight,but it ended up being exactly in
the median that everybodyguessed.
Wow.
And so it's a story of how whenwe're not just listening in one
bubble over here or one bubbleover here, the collective
wisdom, the crowd discovers thetruth.
They discover at least somethingin the middle.
(09:46):
And I think we're so separateright now.
We're hearing, we're bothhearing, all sides are hearing
different things.
We know the algorithm on socialmedia only shows us what we
already believe.
I'm old enough to haveexperienced what it was like to
turn on the news and hear twodifferent perspectives.
And the news was accountable forthat.
And now, you know, I thinksomething changed in the 1990s
(10:08):
where there's different thatthey're not held accountable for
that now.
And they're really justself-interest.
And before I go down that rabbithole too much, because I'm
someone who doesn't believe thatwe're all told the truth and
we're I think that's what we allwant is to be told the truth.
SPEAKER_02 (10:23):
And
SPEAKER_00 (10:24):
we have different news that we watch.
And back to your question onthis, I think that it's worth it
to hear different perspectivesjust to broaden our view, just
to know that we're not living ina bubble and we have the ability
to hear the other wisdom ortruth.
I
SPEAKER_01 (10:45):
love that, and it matches how I would answer this
question, too.
I remember hearing the termbridging versus bonding social
capital, and I heard it a coupledecades ago.
I think it was Robert Putnam,and he's kind of a Harvard
teacher and author of the bookBowling Alone that was really a
seminal book on loneliness thatI read way back in the day.
And he talks about how bondingsocial capital is when we are
(11:06):
bonding with people in our samespace.
demographic group.
And so he gives the example oflike, if he's bonding with other
white Jewish professors in theHarvard area, then that's
bonding social capital.
Whereas bridging social capitalis when we are building
relationships and ties withpeople who are different from us
in any of those categories andin those ways.
And that we live in a worldthat's more and more very siloed
(11:28):
to your point.
And we're creating all this likebonding social capital where
it's like, we almost are justcoming together and hearing our
groupthink over and over andover in all these little
containers, the strongestsocieties are the ones that are
able to do the bridgingrelationships where we can
actually hold hands across ourdifferences and connect in
broader ways.
We become stronger.
We get more woven.
And so, yeah, you came at itfrom a different book and a
(11:50):
different story, but I love thatfor both of us, it's kind of
like we went really big, reallyfast.
It's like, in theory, we bothbelieve that our world...
is better off if we haverelationships with people who
are different from us.
And so like that's guiding bothof us.
And I think that's why we'rewilling to like put on
microphones and like have thishard conversation because we
believe in this bigger mission.
Personally, does it feel like,like I just want to take that
(12:15):
kind of personal for both of us.
Does it feel...
harder, like the advantages?
Do the advantages feel stillreally real when you think about
it from a personal perspectiveof having that relationship?
Or does it suddenly startsounding like exhausting and
kind of hard and you'refiltering yourself a lot and
you're kind of wondering whatthe other person's thinking?
So yeah, like, does it feel lessadvantageous when you take it
more on a micro level for you?
SPEAKER_00 (12:36):
That's a really good question.
I think both of those are truefor me.
So I do avoid this conversationa lot.
It is hard to monitor howeverybody's going to feel,
monitor myself, make sure I'mnot offending people.
Knowing that they're over herein a different bubble, I'm just
very sensitive to that.
(12:57):
And I also understand being in adifferent bubble.
I have been myself and I'mtrying to just not even like
talk sides.
You could do with any issue youcould do it with.
I mean, you brought up thevaccine.
You could do that.
I've personally experiencedwatching loved ones of other
people, like cut them out oftheir life because of a decision
they made about their own bodyand what to put in it.
(13:20):
I've watched people call peoplenames.
I've watched people say they,you know, you don't deserve to
live.
I mean, I've, I've seen that allhappen in front of me and it's,
I've seen it happen in a waywhere it was almost like
accepted to say those things.
Like that was what was scary tome was to, I'll just give an
example of that.
I was on a board at one point ina certain area of the country
(13:44):
and it's a certain area with acertain culture.
pretty much bubble of beliefs.
And they were saying thingsabout the, quote, other side.
And I thought to myself while Iwas in that board meeting,
because it was just said verylike, like this is an
expectation, almost like we allexpect that we're all on the
same page here.
And they were saying thingsreally horrible about the other
(14:05):
side on certain issues, oncertain politics.
And I thought, I really wonder,like, I hope there's nobody from
that other side in this roombecause, wow, that would be
really just so dividing anddiscriminating and painful for
that person.
So that's just an example of howwe can almost get into this
place where you just assumethat, oh, this person's a good
(14:28):
person, so they must be a blankor that or be on this side of
this issue.
And then you come to find outwe're all very complex.
Most of us really are goodpeople.
We all want the same things.
And we all want to know thetruth.
And when we don't talk aboutthese things, we Politics is one
thing that just quickly dividesus.
(14:48):
And then you have other issueslike vaccine.
And I think that divides us evenwithin the division.
There's people on both sides ofthat.
It brings to mind something youshared with me when we had our
coffee.
I wonder if you'd be willing toshare it, which is the The thing
you learned when you went toRwanda, or it was the list
SPEAKER_01 (15:05):
of like...
Yeah, we traveled with theTravel Circle back to Rwanda in
2017, and we were going throughtheir genocide museum.
And we're a group of Americans,and we're like, oh, this poor
country, they had this genocide.
And it sounds so terrible, butit's easy to kind of show up and
have this like, oh, we just feelso bad for you, and this must
have been so terrible.
And it was interesting how thetime back in the States, we had
(15:27):
a big riot here that wasaround...
And they were actually much moreconcerned about us than we were
concerned about them.
And I remember they were showinga list on the wall of some of
the amazing deep reflectionthey've done of like what caused
us to turn on each other andkill each other.
Like what caused this genocide?
(15:48):
And they've done, I mean, Rwandawas so impressive for what
they've done on the backside topractice forgiveness, to
practice healing, to practicereflection.
And, you know, one of theirreflections is like, these are
the seven things thatcontributed, we believe, to us.
turning on each other andkilling each other.
And I don't remember all seven.
I will try to pull them and putthem into the show notes maybe.
But I remember one of them, itwas just like when church and
(16:10):
politics start mixing.
And then another thing on thelist was when somebody, a
leadership starts having a lotof only people who agree with
that person and just onlysurrounding by yes people and
family members and loyalty isthe highest value and not having
opposing ideas tolerated.
So yeah, they were just goingdown the list and all of us from
America were like, Check, check.
(16:32):
Check, check.
Oh, one of the other things onthe list was like when we start
using names to call each other,like when our names, when we
start doing name calling, whenwe start treating people
disrespectfully, when we stopforgetting that that other
person is a human, good, lovingperson, to your point, where we
just start, it's easy to kind ofdemonize the other side.
And when we can hear ourselvesdoing that, like check, it's not
that much more of a stretch tolike get to terrible outcomes,
(16:55):
you know?
So yeah, it's easy sometimeswhen you're here to just be
like, well, what we're doing toeach other isn't that bad.
It's ugly and it's not fun butit's like we would never do that
and yet they didn't think theywould ever do that either and so
yeah it's a really powerfulthing to presence is that the
part of it that you werereferencing
SPEAKER_00 (17:11):
yeah I just think that you know what that
demonstrates is that people sortof what happens when you're
afraid is tribalism is like away that people try to feel safe
by coming together with peoplewho are similar to them and then
the division creates that senseof safety as well because it's
like these people are going tohave my back against those
people and Politics can do thatreally easily, especially
(17:34):
because I believe, you know,within all the political
spectrum, you have the talkingheads or the, you know, the
people on the podium are doingthat.
I think they're all doing that.
So I don't think it's helpingus.
But if we can have theseconversations, and especially
for me, Shasta, and you knowthis about me, the deeper
conversations that get us towhat those emotional reactions
(17:57):
are about, because thoseemotional reactions are what's
pushing us away from each other.
SPEAKER_02 (18:02):
Why
SPEAKER_00 (18:03):
do we feel afraid?
Why is it so hard for me to talkabout politics?
I was nervous to do this withyou.
And then my bigger self, my trueself was like, yes, let's be
role models for doing this,right?
SPEAKER_01 (18:15):
Yeah.
Well, we've covered well, Ithink, why we feel like this is
both important work to do.
And we've kind of touched intothe next question I wanted to
ask us, which is, what are someof the downsides we might face?
Why is this so hard?
What fears come up for both ofus?
What costs are there?
Because it's one thing in anideal world to be like, yes, we
can be friends with each other.
And in real life, it can feelmuch more exhausting, we were
(18:37):
saying, and how much filteringwe do and how much judgment
we're feeling.
And, you know, so kind of likewhy, what makes it harder?
What will be the harder thingsfor you and me to be friends
with each other?
And I'm happy to go first andkind of start.
being honest here and want togive you permission to be as
honest as you can be too.
But I was sitting with this andI was like, yeah, why is this so
hard?
(18:57):
Because I have friends who areopposite.
They have kids and I don't havekids or they're extreme
introverts or we have totallydifferent religious beliefs or
we have different areas of lifewe struggle with.
And I was like, so wefundamentally have relationships
with people who are opposite usin so many areas.
Why does this feel so hard?
And it's really, for me, whatcome up, and I'd be curious to
know if it's the same ordifferent for you, but just the
word judgment was just really,really big.
(19:19):
Mm-hmm.
(19:42):
Being judged is the fear of likeyou not admiring me or you not
seeing me or you having theseterrible thoughts about me.
And to be, let's be frank andhonest, I'm giving those same
thoughts back to you.
Like I'm like a judgmentalperson and I hate to say that.
And so there's like a doublewhammy for me because A, I do
feel judgment and to pretend Idon't would not be truthful.
(20:03):
I do feel judgment.
And then I cover that up withlike shame because I don't want
to be somebody judgmental,right?
And so then it's like thisdouble whammy of like, I am
judgmental.
because I'll see something.
My first thought will be like,oh my goodness, how can somebody
vote for that?
This is so terrible.
And through my lens, my firstthought is just like, who is
voting for these people?
(20:24):
And then I'm like, okay, well, Ido know people who are.
And then I'm just like, oh mygoodness, that makes me feel
like such a terrible person.
And so it does a lot of internalwork around trying to And I
think all of us want to concludethat we're a good person.
So the easy thing to do is justbe like, well, I'm a good
person.
And then it's easier to devalueother people.
And I don't want to be somebodywho devalues myself.
I don't want to be somebodywho's devaluing other people.
(20:45):
But really, when I'm reallyhonest, what's so...
scary about these kinds ofrelationships, Lisa, is how much
the judgment is happening whenit's not even like you and me
together.
So I was thinking about this andI was like, you and I have had
four or five interactions.
They have all been amazing.
And I study relationships and Ilook at like that four to like,
we have to have five to onepositive emotions in a
(21:06):
relationship to keep arelationship healthy.
And if I were just judging it onyears of my interactions, I
would be like, we have got thatfive to one down.
But what's so damaging to thatratio is if I'm judging you
behind the scenes, if I'm havingnegative thoughts, or if I leave
a conversation feeling tiredbecause we are filtering
ourselves, then it's likesuddenly we're like bringing
this negativity into therelationship that has nothing to
(21:27):
do with you and has nothing todo with our dynamic and our
relationship.
It's like all what's going on inmy head.
And I realized like I'm bringingthe negative emotion into this
relationship, and that couldthreaten the relationship to no
fault of yours, just purelybecause I am processing my own
judgments.
And I read a really powerfulquote, I'm sitting with it
(21:48):
really a lot, and that is, theonly reason we ever judge
anybody is when we're trying toreinforce something in our own
identity.
And I've been really, reallysitting with that and just being
like, okay, so why is this soimportant to reinforce this
identity?
And what is the And so, yeah, Ihave a lot of work to do.
I realize that.
(22:09):
Like, I know I don't, I'm verygood at not showing up judging
people externally, but I havethe thoughts and I have to like
kind of do the exercises to likerelease them and to transition
them into something morebeautiful.
And I can get there and I can doit, but it's not my first
thought.
It's not my first instinct.
So yeah, one of the really hard,and I hate to say all this to
you because I'm like, one of thethings I'm going to want to
(22:29):
convince you of is like, I'm notgoing to judge you.
I'm going to accept you.
I want to be a safe place foryou.
And here I have to confess upfront, like I will have
judgmental thoughts and I will,I will have these things.
And so that's one of the reallyhard things about this for me is
like, that's one of the bigdownsides is I can see why it's
easier to be in relationship.
If you just don't feeljudgmental about what people are
(22:51):
doing, you know, but that's notanything about the person or the
relationship that's on me.
SPEAKER_00 (22:55):
Well, you said it so beautifully.
And I appreciate that youbrought up this sort of
self-awareness and the innerwork that you would need to do
in order to let go of judgmentbecause you spelled it out that
the judgment comes fromsomething within yourself that
needs to identify with a certainbelief or issue or political
(23:16):
candidate because there's somestrong things there, right?
To sort of hold on to.
And I've experienced this inconversations when it comes up
at dinner with new people whereeverybody's kind of feeling each
other out and you're sort oftiptoeing around it and you're
not really talking about it andthen it starts to come up and
then you can feel where it comesin in a wave with someone or
(23:38):
maybe more than one person andthen typically Lately, what I've
seen is then people draw back,they change the subject or they
don't go there, or they bring upanother subject that leads you
in a direction that supportslike kind of what they're
feeling.
I'm thinking about for myself,when we had this coffee and it
came up, the first you weresurprised and that a lot of
(24:00):
people are when they find outlike who I'm literally gonna go
vote for is so like notimportant to me, but it is to
some people.
And the why behind that is soimportant complex that that's
what i'm not willing to go intohere because you know i still
have a lot of protection aroundthat and don't want to be
attacked and i know what peopleare hearing about that over here
(24:24):
so there's a lot that i justwon't share until i feel safe
with someone and you like fromthe get-go in that conversation
you made me feel safe becauseyou were genuinely and i want to
emphasize that we're genuinelycurious about that
SPEAKER_02 (24:39):
i am
SPEAKER_00 (24:40):
and i could feel that And I think that's the
important part of us modelingthis conversation, because for
me, the downside is similar.
And what I would want to do islike, you know, the downside is
similar that we're going to bein this dynamic where we're like
filtering that.
Or if we decide to talk aboutit, it's going to be so like
(25:00):
both of us trying to make surethe other person feels okay
about their beliefs.
But meanwhile, we have judgment.
And you said not to be afraid ofoffending you.
So I'm going to say this to you.
I actually don't judge you.
And it's okay that you judge mebecause it's okay.
It actually is normal.
It's human.
And I would say what I alsoreal, I don't think that I judge
(25:21):
you because I actually havebeen, I've been all over the
spectrum politically that Iunderstand where you're coming
from.
Absolutely.
And so because I've been thereand I understand that, and I can
also see where behind all thesmoke and mirrors, we all want
the same things.
We really do.
We want the truth.
(25:41):
We want safety.
We want belonging.
We want security.
We want to feel safe in thisworld, connected to each other.
We want to, you know, you and Iboth want more love.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
(26:08):
Mm-hmm.
that they may not be comfortabletalking about or that might not
be a safe topic.
And I do that with even peopleon both sides because there's
division within division.
So I know there's certain topicsthat I just need to wait until I
feel safe talking about.
And I just don't like talkingabout politics in general.
(26:30):
I mean, I really don't.
I don't enjoy that sense ofhaving to explain or defend
myself.
I think there's so much more ofa deeper truth for me that goes
deeper Beyond that, I want to gohere because I think it's
important that we do.
And it's also something that Idon't really like talking about
(26:50):
and I don't find it rewarding.
You know, but it's important todo.
It's kind of like recycling.
It takes a little extra energy,but it's good for the planet,
SPEAKER_01 (27:03):
you know?
So we both clearly can see wheresome of the exhaustion, some of
the judgment, some of all thenegative feelings kind of come
up.
And so it asks, it kind of begsthe question, why do this then?
It certainly is most people'smodus operandus to just avoid
the subject in general.
For me, I think what's drivingme and, you is to kind of talk
(27:24):
about what is our ideal likewould it feel best to both of us
to say let's just not talk aboutthis or would it feel better
like we're going to name what weboth think is the ideal and kind
of see how far from each otherthey are or if we can kind of
cast this dream and this visionand negotiate that and I think
why it's worth doing that for meis kind of summarizing what
we've been saying it's justhaving a better understanding of
ourselves of each other of otherpeople in this world, it's so
(27:48):
much easier for me to not judge,quote, the other side if there's
people I love and I know on theother side.
That just fundamentally changeshow I feel about that.
So it becomes way less likelythat I'm going to want to get
rid of half the world becauseI'm like, those are people I
love and I know and I want themhere.
And I also really idealisticallydon't necessarily want a
(28:10):
relationship where certainthings are off limits, where I
feel like we're walking oneggshells with each other, where
we feel like we have to not hitthe landmines or something.
And so, yeah, as we're kind ofmoving into what does the ideal
relationship look like?
If you could craft this, howmuch would we talk politics or
would we not?
Or what would feel like theright mix of things for both of
(28:34):
us?
SPEAKER_00 (28:34):
Yeah.
So since we're talking about youand I, and we both have a lot of
intentionality with what we do,I think that we could create a
safe space for open, respectfuldialogue where we can share our
our perspectives and work onwhat comes up for us, both with
judgment and fear, all the stuffthat you and I keep processing
(28:55):
already.
It's so beautiful that we'vebeen sharing like, oh yeah, this
is scary for me because, and Ithink that's the work that we
all need to do.
And then identifying where we'reidentified, because if we can
all in this world start to letgo a little bit of that
identification and really seekto understand, yeah, that's
going to create I think for youand I, like a space where we can
(29:17):
role model, like how do you havethis conversation?
How can people have differentviewpoints and still respect
each other?
And yeah, I think we can feelproud about this when we do it.
You know, we can demonstratethat conversations can happen
without damaging relationshipsand deepening those
relationships by talking aboutwhat's coming up for both of us,
SPEAKER_01 (29:53):
you know?
Like, but it's not a subject wereally need to like go deep
into, or do you like findyourself?
Cause there's a little piece ofme that's like, I don't need
this to be like ourrelationship.
Like we are the politicalopposite friends and that's why
we're doing it.
There's so much other stuffpulling us together that we've
already loved and appreciatedthat had nothing to do with
those politics.
So I don't need this to be likesome exercise in us, like having
(30:15):
all these conversations.
And I am genuinely curious and Ido love the idea of getting
outside of my own bubble.
I do love the idea of having afriendship.
Like when I think about thefriendship triangle.
I hate the idea like on thevulnerability side that there
would be taboo subjects orthings that we just can't talk
about, or there's an elephant inthe room that we're trying to
avoid or, you know, just kind ofthis looming thing over us.
(30:37):
So I do love the idea of beingable to talk about it a little
bit.
I do want to hear your journey.
I do want to hear how you got towhere you are and what are some
of the biggest issues thatyou're really passionate about.
And I do want to show up withcuriosity and, and see you and
feel like you're in, I want youto feel like I know you in that
way.
Like it's not something that Idon't care about.
(30:57):
So yeah, kind of trying to findthat line of like, I do want to
have these conversations and Idon't want it to be like the
thing.
SPEAKER_00 (31:04):
Yeah.
I'm going to answer that in twoways.
One is to describe relationshipsI have with people who are
voting for someone different.
We talk about it.
It's like very little, you know,but it's dropped in right when
it matters.
Like here's something thatreally matters to me.
And this is why I really likewhat was said at that convention
(31:24):
or, you This is why, you know,and I did this with you on an
email where I said, here'ssomething that just happened
this week in the political arenathat is huge for me because it
actually, and, you know, I toldyou about how who I'm voting for
is very layered and complex.
And when you have like differentthings happening with other
people joining the team ofeither candidate that impacts
(31:48):
the whole different, everythingchanges, you know, it can either
strengthen or weaken yourposition based on like who's
supporting that candidate who'swhat's going to happen what are
they promising etc andultimately it's about who do we
think is actually lying to usversus telling us the truth and
we come from different places onthat but i think that when it
(32:09):
really matters is when i wouldwant to bring it up like i might
share with you like this came upfor me today where i felt
someone judging me because i'mof a certain gender and that
should matter more than certainthings or, you know, I might
bring up something that'shappening to me around the
politics that I need sort of toshare with a friend, that kind
(32:31):
of thing.
That makes sense.
Or we could also like just havea conversation where we kind of
intentionally create an arenafor us to both share and listen
and really listen from thatdeeper place.
SPEAKER_01 (32:42):
Yeah, I would do that.
There's something in my stomachthat goes, oh, that's a little
scary because...
And what I love about what we'redoing is naming up front our
goal.
So we don't just like, we don'tjust fall into this, right?
We're like choosingintentionally.
And I think that changes theenergy.
I think that changes thecontainer.
It's like, we both are willingto show up and bring our
biggest, best selves to theconversation.
(33:03):
So neither of us are gettingpulled into this at a
Thanksgiving dinner tableunexpectedly or unwillingly.
It's like two people choosing tosay yes.
And I'm choosing ahead of timekind of our ground rules, if you
will.
What do you need from me?
to feel the safest goingforward, having these
conversations?
What can I do in the mostmeaningful way?
SPEAKER_00 (33:21):
Yeah, I think the best way to answer that is to
call out the qualities you'realready exhibiting because
that's helping me look at me.
I'm here on a podcast talkingabout it.
I never would have thought Iwould be doing this.
I'm also not talking about whoI'm going to vote for on the day
of the election, because thatfeels very risky to me.
I'm protective that way.
(33:41):
It's a very personal decision,and it's even changed in the
past five years for me, the wayI would vote.
So I think that I would say justcontinue to be who you are, and
I'll call out what that is,which is you've been genuinely
curious and compassionate, eventhough you've I own it.
(34:02):
I know it's
SPEAKER_01 (34:15):
my judgment.
Yeah.
Thank you.
Yeah, I do feel it and I do nameit, but I definitely am clear
that it's not your problem.
SPEAKER_00 (34:23):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
And so it doesn't come across tome because, you know, I'm very
sensitive.
So I can feel when people thinkdifferently of me because of a
decision I make or a policy Ilike or whatever, you can feel
that, right?
And I'm not getting that fromyou.
So I would say for other peopleto just work on that, what are
you so identified with?
(34:43):
And for some people, they justwant to be right.
And I don't get that from you.
I get that you, like me, want toexplore friendship and
collective wisdom and all thesethings that would make our world
a better place.
And I don't think we would havethat conversation outside of
respect, right?
you know, deep respect for eachother.
SPEAKER_01 (35:00):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I love that.
And some of the things I've seenin you that give me great
courage and hope is like whenyou were saying at the, at the
end of the day, we all want thesame things and you were naming
those values.
And I think about that.
It's like, we do all have somuch commonality and I think
it's so easy to focus on thepart that's different and the
strategy of how we get there orwho's saying it better, who we
(35:24):
resonate with.
But I do love knowing that I canenter into a conversation with
somebody who's capable offinding our commonality, of when
we get into that, we can findwhat it is we're both really on
agreement on.
And I don't think that will behard if we can both show up with
that.
And you do.
You are somebody who just modelsthe ability to see both sides of
a situation.
You model being able to findthat commonality.
(35:47):
And so that makes it a muchsafer place.
You also model humility verywell.
I don't love entering intopolitical conversations with
people who just just aredefending that all the way down
the line.
I think it's really important toshow up.
There is crazy on both sides.
Like, and honestly, every policyput in front of us, none of them
are perfect, you know, andthere's like flaws in all of
(36:07):
them and there's compromises inall of them.
And to be able to like show upand be like, I don't need to
defend.
I don't need to explain.
We can admit like, yeah, I don'tlike this part of my candidate
and I don't like this part ofthat position.
And I'm embarrassed by my partydoing this thing.
And to be able to kind of likename some of that just feels
like there's an exhale in theconversation.
It's like, Like, okay, we're notjust like here on two different
(36:30):
sides, like arguing this thing.
And we can actually just kind ofcome together and find that
commonality and accept thatwe're going to get there
differently.
I mean, it's like, there's somany other areas of life where
we do this.
Like people who have kids anddon't have kids, you have to
navigate these conversationsabout, like, I would never be
like, that is just an off-limitsubject.
We are not going to talk aboutyou having a child because I
don't have one.
Like, I want to be like, how'sit going?
(36:51):
And what's the stage ofparenting like?
And tell me how your child isdoing.
And like, I want to be curious.
I want to know that side of you.
I would never be like that.
That's a taboo subject becausewe don't have that in common,
you know?
So yeah, being able to kind oflike hold that space for just
curiosity.
I think the other thing, Lisa,that I would name, and I don't
know if this feels like a fairthing to name, I'm open for you
being like, I don't know, that'snot a good expectation I have,
(37:12):
but...
I think if I were to feel 100%safe, it would be this shared
belief that not only are we bothaccepted exactly where we are,
but that we both work reallyhard at letting go of any desire
to change the other.
Yeah.
And I don't know if we can,like, I don't know.
I mean, I think a lot of peoplego in and be like, okay, I'm
going to be really accepting.
I'm going to be really kind, butlike deep down, I hope that I
(37:34):
can convince them or I hope Ican change them or convert them.
But I feel really sensitive tothat energy.
And I feel like if I felt atall, like you were hoping that
deep down, down the road, Imight change and maybe I will,
but maybe you will.
I mean, but like the energy oflike trying to change the other
person just feels icky to me.
(37:54):
Like, I'm curious if you thinkwe can have a friend where we
are like, no matter what, evenif you never change, like I
still love you and I still wantto know who you are and how
you're doing.
I
SPEAKER_00 (38:05):
actually love that.
I think if we were like, youknow, I'm an experienced
designer too.
So if I were going to design anexperience that helps people
heal this, I would put that intothe kind of like, almost like
the group rule.
Like, Yeah, absolutely.
(38:47):
someone's political affiliationor that they don't have one,
which is closer to me, actually.
But if you learn who someone'sgoing to vote for you
automatically, there's likethis, oh, that's just a blank,
blank, blank person that listensto blank, blank, blank news.
And so and you get these littlelike stereotypes in your head.
And I can say both sides ofthem, but I'm not even going to
(39:09):
do that right now because Idon't even want to add to that.
But that doesn't help.
Like you conjure up this imageof what this person must be like
because of who they're going tovote for.
That does not help us.
And it does not help youunderstand who that person is or
what's important to them.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (39:24):
I love that.
So if you had wisdom for usgoing forward, Lisa, or a hope
or a wish for us, whichever ofthose comes up for you, like
what do you, you know, we have anew friendship.
We don't have a lot of practicedoing this.
What advice would you give us?
SPEAKER_00 (39:39):
I would say if we can all start to work on on the
inside.
Like if we do the personalgrowth alongside our political
discussions and really onlyhaving them when it feels safe,
when it feels like you're comingfrom your heart and your genuine
curiosity of the other person,which means you're gonna listen,
And you're not trying to changethem and you're not attached and
(40:01):
you're not arrogant.
If you can come from that place,it actually will transform.
I believe it will absolutelytransform our world and
contribute to the healing andthe wisdom of crowds and the
political divide will soften.
Right.
If we can do that in oursociety.
But I don't think everybody'sready for that.
And I don't think.
Trying to do that when you'renot doing the inner work helps.
(40:25):
I think it hurts.
SPEAKER_01 (40:31):
Yeah.
doing the thing that you'restill, it doesn't mean you're
fearless.
It means you have the fear andyou still do something.
How do you know the difference?
Is it just kind of looking athow the other person's
energetically showing up and theintention?
SPEAKER_00 (40:51):
Yeah, I think just tuning into that question right
now, I think that we know whenwe can sort of sense when we
might be attacked or when theother person has an agenda, like
you were describing, likeknowing someone wants to change
your beliefs.
Like you can feel that and thatdoesn't feel safe It's also very
draining to be in a conversationlike that.
(41:12):
And we all have the right toprotect ourselves from that.
So I would just, I guess I wouldsay, you know, when it's safe,
like we can all feel that weknow when someone genuinely
cares about us.
We know when they're trying tochange us and we have every
right to stop that conversationand leave and come back to it
maybe when it feels safe again.
But like, I think we needcertain rules for this.
(41:34):
And part of that guidelineshould be self-awareness and
asking yourself questions oflike, where am I attached?
Where do I need to be right?
Where am I holding on to like anidentity rather than really
caring about this other person?
SPEAKER_01 (41:46):
That's so beautiful.
Well, Lisa, I wish for us...
I am a little nervous, but Ireally am proud of us and
hopeful.
And I'm already proud of us inthe future of having a
conversation.
I would love to have aconversation and find the time
and the place where I do get tohear your story and where we do
feel like we can both open thissubject up and not just say this
(42:08):
is a value to us to make this asafe subject, but let's prove to
ourselves we can do that.
And then I picture us being ableto just create a whole bunch of
other amazing, fun memoriestogether, just you and me with
our spouses, and just create afriendship that's based on so
many other things where thisbecomes one thing that's not a
big elephant in the room or abig taboo that we can kind of
come and visit every once in awhile.
(42:28):
But I also look forward to justcreating so many other wonderful
memories with you and continuingto deepen our friendship.
SPEAKER_00 (42:34):
Ditto.
I feel the same way.
Thank you so much for invitingme and being courageous with me.
And I'm very proud of us aswell.
SPEAKER_01 (42:43):
This is great.
Yay.
Yay.
Oh, that leaves me feelinghopeful and Thank you, Lisa, for
your willingness to come on andhave a conversation I would
guess neither of us have everhad before with other people.
And it's so powerful.
It's important that all of uskeep trying new ways and new
(43:05):
things in our relationships whenwe believe that they will add
value to our lives and to theworld that we're trying to
create here.
So beautiful.
When we can have like that metaconversation and you'll see my
hands, I'm like going up higherwhere sometimes we get caught up
in the specifics and thelabeling and the othering.
And if we can kind of go up acouple levels, we can be in this
(43:26):
other place up here where we canhave this conversation about
hearing each other's bestintentions and finding those
shared common values and hearingus both state who we want to be
in this world and the world thatwe want to live in.
And up here, we find all thesethings that we draw to each
other.
We lean in.
We're just like, yes, I feelthat way too.
Yes, I want to be in a worldwhere we aren't siloed.
(43:48):
Yes, I want to be in a worldwhere we are able to do this.
And we can hear that intention.
And it makes it so much easiergoing forward when we come down
that path into more specifics,we can remember that shared
commonality up there.
We can remember who we said wewanted to be up there.
We can give each other thebenefit of the doubt.
And so, so beautiful for all ofus to have conversations that
(44:11):
are up higher bigger, kind ofbroader, kind of those meta
conversations, because there'sso much more we agree on when
we're up there.
There's so much more love we canfeel when we're up there.
And that can inform us and giveus practice for when we come
down into some of the more nittyand the gritty in all of our
relationships.
And so, Lisa, thank you so much.
(44:31):
I know that when we have morespecific conversations, I have
this as proof in my body thatyou are somebody just so
beautiful, so pure, and I can'twait truly to hear your own more
specific journey.
I think for all of us, wehaven't had great modeling on
this subject of politics.
We haven't had it, honestly, infriendships in general, all that
(44:54):
well in a plethora of ways.
Many of us didn't have thatgreat modeling from family
members or parents.
Sometimes we kind of had somegood TV shows or perhaps a movie
here and there.
But when you think about it,where are we getting our
pictures of what relationshiplooks like and what
conversations we're supposed tobe having and how we're supposed
to do those conversations andhow we express love to each
(45:16):
other?
And so most of us are kind ofleft just replicating what we've
seen or kind of figuring it outourselves.
And I think about how sad thatis.
And when you go more specific topolitics, the modeling we've had
is truthfully quite terrible.
I think about like TV shows andthey're just, you know,
(45:37):
basically that's where we saytalking heads.
They're there to have a fewseconds of a sound bite.
And so they have to be superconvincing and have their facts
down.
And they're just kind of,they're in debate mode a little
bit, if you will.
And they're like just trying toshort, to speak in short
sentences and get their pointacross and be strong and
entertaining and all the things.
I mean, none of us want to sitdown and have a conversation
(45:57):
around a dinner table in thatformat.
And then we might have somememories of sitting around
certain family big tables,Thanksgiving tables, or being at
some rallies or some events orsome gatherings where either we
saw the worst, where we sawpeople fighting and criticizing
each other, or where we werearound people who just believed
like we did.
And so you can hear the energywhere you go, you know, just
(46:17):
start talking bad about otherpeople.
Like, how could they think that?
How do other people not knowthis?
How are they not doing this?
And we start being in aconversation where we're judging
and kind of putting down theother side.
None of this is how any of uswant to show up in our
friendships.
None of us want to be talkingheads.
None of us want to be in adebate.
None of us want to be like in acritical situation where we're
(46:39):
just putting other people down.
And yet we haven't had greatmodeling on this.
I think back maybe because Lisawas just referencing Rwanda and
the genocide, and I can talkabout that in a second.
But one of the other things Idid when I was in Rwanda is we
went...
through the jungles looking forthe silverback gorillas.
And we had to hire severalsecurity guards and people who
(46:59):
were guides and they hadmachetes and they were like
bushwhacking us through thejungle to go help find these
families of gorillas.
And it was one of the mostamazing things.
And yet, because we're not in azoo, we can't just walk down a
paved road and see the gorillasthere and be like, oh, they're
beautiful.
We had to go to where they wereat.
And so there wasn't a pavedroad.
There I think of that now asthat metaphor sounds so apropos
(47:26):
for those of us who are tryingto do politics and friendships
is we almost have to bushwhack anew way of being with each
other.
And that means it's going to bea lot harder of work.
That means you've got peopleahead of you who just have to
take those machetes and bechopping down vines and trying
to clear a path.
And it's not going to be apretty path because they're just
doing quick and dirty and we'rejust trying to get people
through.
(47:46):
The most amazing thing about apath, though, is the more we
walk it, the more people whofollow us walk it, the more that
eventually becomes a well-wornpath.
And so I don't know of how youfeel, but I feel like most of us
are looking around at thepolitical landscape and saying,
this feels gross.
This is not the world I want tolive in.
(48:07):
Everything is so divided.
I don't think most of us want tolive in a world that's this
divided, that has this muchconflict, that is this mean.
And yet, we are going to have tofind a new way if that's not the
world we want.
We're going to have to bushwhacknew paths because what we're
going to be tempted to do isreplicate what's being modeled
to us.
What we're going to be temptedto do is take the easy route and
(48:29):
think that when we show up inour friendships that we need to
debate, that we need to win.
We're going to make the mistakeof thinking that we need to have
all of our facts down and thatwe just have to be ready to
convince.
We're going to make the mistakeof saying hurtful things like we
hear others doing, but we'regoing to have the opportunity
here to say, you know what?
This isn't the world I want tolive in.
So I'm not going to keep walkingthe same tired roads.
(48:51):
And I know we can't all controlwhat's happening out there, but
we absolutely can control what'shappening in our little corner
of the world.
And so what you're witnessing metrying to do imperfectly, but
nonetheless, is saying, I don'twant to just look around and
say, I don't want to live in adivided world, but I have to
personalize that to myself andsay, Are my friendships a
(49:15):
reflection of that?
Am I practicing the integrationin my little world that I want
to see in the big world?
Because how silly for me to justsit here in my little world, in
my little silo, in a safe,little, comfortable friend group
that all looks like me and haslittle group think, and then
criticize the rest of the worldfor being divisive.
If I'm not actively contributingto uniting us than I am just
(49:39):
participating in this smallerversion.
Nonetheless, we may not be theones who are out there on the
forefront, but we arecontributing.
Everything we say, everything wedo is either energy toward more
united, more connected, moreloving, or it's energy towards
more divisive, more critical,and more mean.
And going back to that Rwandaconversation, I've walked that
(50:03):
genocide museum.
I've seen those memorials.
Many of you have been toHolocaust museums.
You know the history.
You know what humanity iscapable of.
So we know when we look at thespectrum, we know that on one
end of the spectrum, andgranted, I hope to God, it's an
extreme spectrum that we neversee and hit again, where there's
a genocide, where there's war,where we turn on each other and
(50:25):
where we think the other side isterrible, so terrible that we
need to get rid of them.
And we might not be there now,and this might feel too extreme.
And yet, if my very actions inmy day-to-day life are
continuing to contribute todivisiveness and insulting, then
I am feeding that path.
And so I really, really want tobe somebody who's enlarging my
(50:50):
ability to love, who loves theother more quickly, who can show
up and practice greater love inthis world.
And so I put out the invitationto all of us Let's bushwhack
together.
Let's start by practicing on ourfriends, on our family.
Let's trust the people around usare good.
Let's reinforce that.
(51:11):
Let's remind ourselves of that.
Let's fall in love again withpeople who believe differently
from us.
Let's build those bridges.
Let's reach out.
Let's put hands across theproverbial aisles.
Let's be the people that we aremad at Congress people for not
being able to be or to do or ourpoliticians.
But let's not just...
Put it all on them.
(51:32):
Let's own some of it forourselves.
And so last week we were talkingabout how important it is to put
positive emotions into ourrelationships, that every
relationship needs to, we needto feel loved by that person.
We need to feel accepted.
We need to feel like we enjoyeach other.
We can't be adding criticism andinsults and demeaning behaviors
and expect a good relationshipto be the outcome.
(51:53):
So we know the power of positiveemotions.
And now we have to build uponthat with consistency.
And you can go back to episodeone of my podcast if you want a
refresher on the threerequirements of relationship as
we're building up this triangle.
But what you saw with me andLisa today is we practiced
positive emotions.
We practiced holding that spaceof like assuming the best in
(52:14):
each other and stating ourdesired intentions to know each
other and promising who wewanted to be for each other.
So all of that left a positivefeeling.
I got done with the conversationand was like, yes, I want more
of her.
But now comes the hard work ofbacking that up with consistency
because a one-time amazingconversation isn't enough.
(52:35):
We've all had moments wherewe've done one thing really
well.
But if we, next time we gettogether, go back to our old
ways of doing things, it kind ofwipes it out a little bit.
Because when it comes toconsistency, we remember how
somebody is over the long run.
We remember the pattern.
We don't remember the one-offsas much as we remember the
feeling overall.
(52:56):
And so my one-time amazingconversation would quickly get
overshadowed if I turned andstarted becoming a different
person and started insulting andbeing critical and acting like
she was wrong and I'm the rightone and I need to fix her and I
need to give her all my sourcesand all the things that we're so
often tempted to do.
Instead, now we have thispositive emotion and my
(53:18):
invitation to myself is to say,okay, how do I make this
reliable?
How do I turn this one-timeexperience into something that's
repetitious?
How do I make this a well-wornpath?
How do I make this a well-wornpath?
And so when it comes toconsistency, I think part of it
is what Lisa and I are exploringis how much do we really want
(53:40):
politics to be a part of ourrelationship?
And we don't want it to be thewhole thing.
And so part of our consistencyis going to be how do we keep
inviting each other to go do funthings, have meaningful
conversations, to have some funevents, to still laugh, to go
have a good time, to have awhole bunch of other amazing
conversations.
So part of our consistency isputting politics...
in perspective, where it doesn'tovershadow, where it's not the
(54:03):
big thing, where it's not anelephant we're avoiding, but
neither is it the big one andonly subject.
And so our task is to create afun relationship where we get
together in a variety of waysand talk about a lot of
different things.
Another part of our consistencywill be to also figure out how
to do the politics in a waywhere we continue to practice
(54:23):
the very values we've stated upfront that matter to us.
So how can I consistently...
be somebody that she can trust?
How do I help be somebody thatshe can rely on?
How do I practice being theperson where I honor her
boundaries, where I ask her howshe's feeling, where I make sure
the space is safe for her, whereI follow up and ask her if it
(54:44):
feels safe to her, if there'sanything I can do that would
help make it more safe for her?
What can I do so that she cantrust me going forward, that
this is a pattern and not aone-time thing?
Because all of us want to be insafe and reliable relationships.
We want to be in relationshipswhere we have that pattern,
where we know that it'sreliable, where we know that the
(55:05):
one thing that we might notagree on is not going to
overshadow, and where weeventually build up skills where
we know that that one thing thatwe might not agree on, we can be
vulnerable enough and we canshow up and trust ourselves.
We can build trust as arelationship, that we can have
those conversations andabsolutely not just survive
them, but come through withgreater understanding.
(55:26):
greater compassion for eachother.
So boy, the metaphor ofbushwhacking and creating a path
just kind of is rising up inthis little conversation here
for all of us as we might betrying to start new patterns,
change our habits, add more loveto our lives.
My invitation to all of us isthat we be gentle with ourselves
as we're experimenting.
(55:47):
This doesn't come naturally.
It hasn't been modeled to us.
So let's bushwhack for good andlet's trust that as we keep
being consistent in our lives ofwho we want to be and how we
want to show up, that as we keepoffering our best, that we keep
practicing new things, where wechange the beliefs in our head
that we rise when somebody elsefalls, where we don't feel like
(56:07):
it's a teeter-totter, where wehave to make ourselves feel
better by pushing someone elsedown, where we remind ourselves
on a consistent basis that I canhave values, I can have vision,
I can be excited about certaincandidates, certain beliefs, I
can be passionate.
And that doesn't mean I need topush somebody else down in order
to have those views.
And so I need to practice doingthat consistently.
(56:29):
in my own head and in myfriendships and then trust that
as I get better and better atdoing that in my little corner
of the world, that it will makea bigger difference in the big
world that we live in.
So thank you for joining me.
Thank you for being anotheridealist, another person who
knows that we would rather livein a world that is more
(56:50):
connected, not less connected,and who takes responsibility for
helping bring that connectionabout.
It has been such an honor, suchan honor to have you in this
conversation today.
I hope it raised a few questionsfor you, made you think of a few
people in your life that maybeyou will reach out to, maybe
thinking through who we want tobe in this world and how we, in
(57:12):
our own little small ways, canpractice being the very thing
that we want to see all aroundus.
Next week, we are ending theseries with a final conversation
I'm inviting a couple of myfriends on where we are going to
talk about how Even when we'vethought we've been on the same
page, why don't we talkpolitics?
So many of us choose maybebecause as we've looked at in
(57:33):
this series, talking aboutpolitics can feel hard.
And so, so many of us havechosen to just say, you know
what, in my relationships, wejust don't talk politics.
And that's kind of a big policya lot of us take on.
And next week, a couple of myfriends and I are going to look
deeper at that unspoken policyand say, Is that the right way
to go?
Or are we missing something whenwe don't do that?
(57:54):
And so we're going to have aconversation about is silence
really the best way to go in arelationship?
So I hope that you join us forthat.
And our goal each week is justto help us think bigger thoughts
and open up to a little bit morelove, maybe make our circles a
little bit wider, maybe do alittle bit better of a job of
(58:15):
inviting people in, maybe doinga better job of deepening
intimacy with a few people inour lives, but above all,
building the relationships inour lives that are more
fulfilling.
You've been listening toFrentimacy.
May we all find our way to morefulfilling friendships.
We'll see you next time.
(00:28):
With over 60% of us feelinglonely on a regular basis and
way more of us wishing for justbetter relationships in general,
it is so time for us to beintentional in building the
friendships that will leave usfeeling fulfilled.
What's your first thought whenyou meet someone that you
initially like and then you findout they're on the other side of
(00:49):
the political spectrum?
It's usually a little bit ofdisappointment, a little bit of
judgment.
And that's because thatrelationship typically only has
three options.
One, we simply assume that wecan't be good friends because
we're both on opposite sides andwe go look for more like-minded
people.
That happens all the time.
Sometimes we stay in therelationship for whatever reason
(01:11):
and we end up having toughconversations and we leave
feeling judged and defensive,demeaned.
Maybe we have conflict.
Maybe we do things that leaveeach other feeling hurt.
That's never fun.
And that's why we often choosethe third path, which is, okay,
let's keep building thisfriendship and just avoid all
talk of the subject and justignore the fact that we are
(01:31):
voting differently.
But what if there's anotherpath?
I don't know.
I mean, I don't have the answersyet.
It's not a clear paved path,that's for sure.
But that doesn't mean it's notpossible.
Today, I'm inviting a newfriend, Lisa, to join me because
there's so much about her Ireally admire, even though I
don't like who she's voting forin this election.
But I'm curious if we can createa friendship that still feels
(01:53):
fulfilling, not just anexercise, but that feels
meaningful and fun, and yet alsodoesn't require either of us to
be hidden or to act like there'staboo subjects or that we can't
show up and share who we are andwhat we value.
I don't know.
Today, we're going to try tohave that conversation and see
if there's a possible route wecan go.
Thank you so much for joiningus.
(02:18):
Lisa, this is such a big honorthat you would say yes and come
join me in this really bigconversation because it's a hard
conversation to have even if wehad been friends for 20 years,
but you and I really have onlyknown each other for about a
year.
Is that true?
Yeah.
I think
SPEAKER_00 (02:35):
maybe almost, yeah, almost a year.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (02:38):
Yeah.
And we've only gotten togethermaybe four or five times in that
year.
And those times have beenamazing.
They've been really, reallybeautiful.
But we kind of at some pointsensed that we had different
politics.
And then we had a coffeerecently.
And I was talking about how Iwas feeling very convicted about
wanting to do this podcastseries on politics.
(02:59):
friendships and politicaldifferences.
And I had no intention of ushaving this conversation, but as
you and I kind of talked aboutit, I was like, oh my goodness,
this could be really, reallybeautiful if we could both show
up for this.
And we both felt a little scaredabout it, but here we are.
And I would just love to hearfrom you before we start, like
how you first sensed that wemight have different politics,
(03:20):
because we haven't really everhad a political conversation,
but how did you first sense thatwe had different views and how
did you feel about it when youfirst felt that?
SPEAKER_00 (03:28):
Yeah, that's a great question.
That's a really good question.
I think I go into most newrelationships now with a little
bit of a caution and almost likean assumption that we probably
do have different politics onlybecause that helps me with all
the things that I need toprotect within myself because of
what I personally have seenhappen in the world or
(03:51):
experienced.
I'm a very sensitive person, soI never want to make anyone
uncomfortable.
feel judged.
So it takes me a while toactually show up in a friendship
or any relationship and even sayanything about my my political
beliefs, which are complicated.
So it's like also very hard todescribe them and just like, oh,
(04:13):
I'm this, I'm that or I'm votingfor this person.
I'm voting for that person.
It's not that simple for me.
And so I know when we first met,you know, just thinking of like
the first deeper encounter thatwe had where three couples were
having dinner together andpolitics, I don't think it ever
even came up.
And it was such a beautifulconversation where we talked
(04:35):
about things that really didmatter to us.
And we went to those places ofvulnerability about values and
what's really important withouteven talking about who we're
going to go vote for on aballot.
And so that's I guess the answerto your question is that I
probably sensed, I think we'reall used to picking up on cues
(04:58):
from people like, oh, okay,they're probably a Republican or
they're probably a Democratbecause they just said that or
they just said that.
And I think there's certainthings that I tend to say in a
conversation that really domatter to me that probably let
people know at least where Istand on certain issues.
And then you can start to makean assumption, right?
(05:18):
I honestly don't.
Don't do that as much with otherpeople until it's really
obvious, because I just assumethat we're all good people.
We all want to be seen as goodpeople.
And I'm not gravitating towardspeople who are strongly
identified with either party atthis point in my life.
And if they are, that's usuallypretty much a turnoff.
(05:39):
on both sides for me.
If they're trying to push it onpeople, if that's what they talk
about, if they come from anemotional, strong place, I'm not
really drawn to thoserelationships.
So I think the fact that we hadthis dinner where we didn't even
talk about it, but we wentreally deep that told me the
kind of person you were ratherthan who's she gonna vote for.
SPEAKER_01 (06:00):
That's really beautiful.
Yeah, you are very thoughtful inhow you show up in the world and
very beautiful in that way.
You have a very beautiful aurathat never feels like it's
pushing anything on anybody.
I remember at some point, Ithink you were describing why
you moved to this community thatwe both live in and the reasons
you gave had to do with kind ofaround the vaccine and stuff.
(06:23):
And so you didn't say exactlywhere you were at on that.
But I think that was the firsttime I kind of was like, oh,
interesting.
I wonder if we're how we bothfeel about this thing.
And it felt like maybe it couldbe a little different.
but I didn't, it wasn'tsomething that we followed up on
and we didn't like have this bigconversation around it.
It was just became a data pointin my mind.
That was like one more thingthat I'm just kind of, you know,
(06:43):
when you're making new friends,you're collecting all this data,
like, okay, that's her husband.
Okay.
This is where they live.
Okay.
This was an amazingconversation.
Oh my goodness.
They love sourdough bread.
Like, okay, this is like, you'rejust kind of collecting all this
like data.
Right.
And it's like, okay.
And that thing came up and, andit just kind of gets put into
this folder, if you will, uh,for, as we're kind of building
our understanding of each other.
And, but really it was justrecently Thank you.
(07:18):
This is our first time we'rehaving this conversation where
we're actually saying like,okay, so now we know we both
have kind of been brave enoughto like unmask ourselves and
say, okay, we are voting verydifferently.
And we both feel like we'revoting our values and we both
have wonderful experiences witheach other.
And so why would we evenconsider being friends with
(07:38):
somebody who is so differentfrom us on this particular
issue?
And you kind of named a littlebit that we also were able to
have some really special momentsand we have some commonalities
in other areas, but maybe evenbefore we get started, what's
the advantage to having afriendship with someone who
doesn't have the same worldview?
Why are we even willing to try?
SPEAKER_00 (07:55):
That's a really good question.
I think when it comes to you andI, we do have a certain
emotional intelligence andability to hold each other with
care, compassion, and Andcuriosity.
And so because of who we are, Ithink it is worth it.
I think when people come from aplace of strong emotional
reaction, you do more harm thangood when you bring it up.
(08:17):
So that's why there's so manypeople who have this rule, like
there's no talking politics orreligion at the family dinner
table because...
A lot of people in this worlddon't have the ability to have
that conversation in a way thatencompasses respect for everyone
and respect for all beliefs.
And I know you and I, we do havethat ability.
(08:39):
And so for us, I believe it'sworth it.
And I think of this book thatChristopher, my husband, talks
about.
It's called The Wisdom ofCrowds.
And I think it's James Sarecki.
And the book talks about howcollective wisdom can change
actually be more accurate thanindividual expertise.
(09:01):
And if we don't have theseconversations, we can't really
get wiser.
We're living in a bubble andwe're not learning from each
other.
We're not finding thatcollective wisdom.
And I think that, so theanecdote in the book is that
there was this country fair backin the 19th century in England,
and people were asked to guessthe weight of a sow.
(09:23):
Nobody guessed the right weight,but it ended up being exactly in
the median that everybodyguessed.
Wow.
And so it's a story of how whenwe're not just listening in one
bubble over here or one bubbleover here, the collective
wisdom, the crowd discovers thetruth.
They discover at least somethingin the middle.
(09:46):
And I think we're so separateright now.
We're hearing, we're bothhearing, all sides are hearing
different things.
We know the algorithm on socialmedia only shows us what we
already believe.
I'm old enough to haveexperienced what it was like to
turn on the news and hear twodifferent perspectives.
And the news was accountable forthat.
And now, you know, I thinksomething changed in the 1990s
(10:08):
where there's different thatthey're not held accountable for
that now.
And they're really justself-interest.
And before I go down that rabbithole too much, because I'm
someone who doesn't believe thatwe're all told the truth and
we're I think that's what we allwant is to be told the truth.
SPEAKER_02 (10:23):
And
SPEAKER_00 (10:24):
we have different news that we watch.
And back to your question onthis, I think that it's worth it
to hear different perspectivesjust to broaden our view, just
to know that we're not living ina bubble and we have the ability
to hear the other wisdom ortruth.
I
SPEAKER_01 (10:45):
love that, and it matches how I would answer this
question, too.
I remember hearing the termbridging versus bonding social
capital, and I heard it a coupledecades ago.
I think it was Robert Putnam,and he's kind of a Harvard
teacher and author of the bookBowling Alone that was really a
seminal book on loneliness thatI read way back in the day.
And he talks about how bondingsocial capital is when we are
(11:06):
bonding with people in our samespace.
demographic group.
And so he gives the example oflike, if he's bonding with other
white Jewish professors in theHarvard area, then that's
bonding social capital.
Whereas bridging social capitalis when we are building
relationships and ties withpeople who are different from us
in any of those categories andin those ways.
And that we live in a worldthat's more and more very siloed
(11:28):
to your point.
And we're creating all this likebonding social capital where
it's like, we almost are justcoming together and hearing our
groupthink over and over andover in all these little
containers, the strongestsocieties are the ones that are
able to do the bridgingrelationships where we can
actually hold hands across ourdifferences and connect in
broader ways.
We become stronger.
We get more woven.
And so, yeah, you came at itfrom a different book and a
(11:50):
different story, but I love thatfor both of us, it's kind of
like we went really big, reallyfast.
It's like, in theory, we bothbelieve that our world...
is better off if we haverelationships with people who
are different from us.
And so like that's guiding bothof us.
And I think that's why we'rewilling to like put on
microphones and like have thishard conversation because we
believe in this bigger mission.
Personally, does it feel like,like I just want to take that
(12:15):
kind of personal for both of us.
Does it feel...
harder, like the advantages?
Do the advantages feel stillreally real when you think about
it from a personal perspectiveof having that relationship?
Or does it suddenly startsounding like exhausting and
kind of hard and you'refiltering yourself a lot and
you're kind of wondering whatthe other person's thinking?
So yeah, like, does it feel lessadvantageous when you take it
more on a micro level for you?
SPEAKER_00 (12:36):
That's a really good question.
I think both of those are truefor me.
So I do avoid this conversationa lot.
It is hard to monitor howeverybody's going to feel,
monitor myself, make sure I'mnot offending people.
Knowing that they're over herein a different bubble, I'm just
very sensitive to that.
(12:57):
And I also understand being in adifferent bubble.
I have been myself and I'mtrying to just not even like
talk sides.
You could do with any issue youcould do it with.
I mean, you brought up thevaccine.
You could do that.
I've personally experiencedwatching loved ones of other
people, like cut them out oftheir life because of a decision
they made about their own bodyand what to put in it.
(13:20):
I've watched people call peoplenames.
I've watched people say they,you know, you don't deserve to
live.
I mean, I've, I've seen that allhappen in front of me and it's,
I've seen it happen in a waywhere it was almost like
accepted to say those things.
Like that was what was scary tome was to, I'll just give an
example of that.
I was on a board at one point ina certain area of the country
(13:44):
and it's a certain area with acertain culture.
pretty much bubble of beliefs.
And they were saying thingsabout the, quote, other side.
And I thought to myself while Iwas in that board meeting,
because it was just said verylike, like this is an
expectation, almost like we allexpect that we're all on the
same page here.
And they were saying thingsreally horrible about the other
(14:05):
side on certain issues, oncertain politics.
And I thought, I really wonder,like, I hope there's nobody from
that other side in this roombecause, wow, that would be
really just so dividing anddiscriminating and painful for
that person.
So that's just an example of howwe can almost get into this
place where you just assumethat, oh, this person's a good
(14:28):
person, so they must be a blankor that or be on this side of
this issue.
And then you come to find outwe're all very complex.
Most of us really are goodpeople.
We all want the same things.
And we all want to know thetruth.
And when we don't talk aboutthese things, we Politics is one
thing that just quickly dividesus.
(14:48):
And then you have other issueslike vaccine.
And I think that divides us evenwithin the division.
There's people on both sides ofthat.
It brings to mind something youshared with me when we had our
coffee.
I wonder if you'd be willing toshare it, which is the The thing
you learned when you went toRwanda, or it was the list
SPEAKER_01 (15:05):
of like...
Yeah, we traveled with theTravel Circle back to Rwanda in
2017, and we were going throughtheir genocide museum.
And we're a group of Americans,and we're like, oh, this poor
country, they had this genocide.
And it sounds so terrible, butit's easy to kind of show up and
have this like, oh, we just feelso bad for you, and this must
have been so terrible.
And it was interesting how thetime back in the States, we had
(15:27):
a big riot here that wasaround...
And they were actually much moreconcerned about us than we were
concerned about them.
And I remember they were showinga list on the wall of some of
the amazing deep reflectionthey've done of like what caused
us to turn on each other andkill each other.
Like what caused this genocide?
(15:48):
And they've done, I mean, Rwandawas so impressive for what
they've done on the backside topractice forgiveness, to
practice healing, to practicereflection.
And, you know, one of theirreflections is like, these are
the seven things thatcontributed, we believe, to us.
turning on each other andkilling each other.
And I don't remember all seven.
I will try to pull them and putthem into the show notes maybe.
But I remember one of them, itwas just like when church and
(16:10):
politics start mixing.
And then another thing on thelist was when somebody, a
leadership starts having a lotof only people who agree with
that person and just onlysurrounding by yes people and
family members and loyalty isthe highest value and not having
opposing ideas tolerated.
So yeah, they were just goingdown the list and all of us from
America were like, Check, check.
(16:32):
Check, check.
Oh, one of the other things onthe list was like when we start
using names to call each other,like when our names, when we
start doing name calling, whenwe start treating people
disrespectfully, when we stopforgetting that that other
person is a human, good, lovingperson, to your point, where we
just start, it's easy to kind ofdemonize the other side.
And when we can hear ourselvesdoing that, like check, it's not
that much more of a stretch tolike get to terrible outcomes,
(16:55):
you know?
So yeah, it's easy sometimeswhen you're here to just be
like, well, what we're doing toeach other isn't that bad.
It's ugly and it's not fun butit's like we would never do that
and yet they didn't think theywould ever do that either and so
yeah it's a really powerfulthing to presence is that the
part of it that you werereferencing
SPEAKER_00 (17:11):
yeah I just think that you know what that
demonstrates is that people sortof what happens when you're
afraid is tribalism is like away that people try to feel safe
by coming together with peoplewho are similar to them and then
the division creates that senseof safety as well because it's
like these people are going tohave my back against those
people and Politics can do thatreally easily, especially
(17:34):
because I believe, you know,within all the political
spectrum, you have the talkingheads or the, you know, the
people on the podium are doingthat.
I think they're all doing that.
So I don't think it's helpingus.
But if we can have theseconversations, and especially
for me, Shasta, and you knowthis about me, the deeper
conversations that get us towhat those emotional reactions
(17:57):
are about, because thoseemotional reactions are what's
pushing us away from each other.
SPEAKER_02 (18:02):
Why
SPEAKER_00 (18:03):
do we feel afraid?
Why is it so hard for me to talkabout politics?
I was nervous to do this withyou.
And then my bigger self, my trueself was like, yes, let's be
role models for doing this,right?
SPEAKER_01 (18:15):
Yeah.
Well, we've covered well, Ithink, why we feel like this is
both important work to do.
And we've kind of touched intothe next question I wanted to
ask us, which is, what are someof the downsides we might face?
Why is this so hard?
What fears come up for both ofus?
What costs are there?
Because it's one thing in anideal world to be like, yes, we
can be friends with each other.
And in real life, it can feelmuch more exhausting, we were
(18:37):
saying, and how much filteringwe do and how much judgment
we're feeling.
And, you know, so kind of likewhy, what makes it harder?
What will be the harder thingsfor you and me to be friends
with each other?
And I'm happy to go first andkind of start.
being honest here and want togive you permission to be as
honest as you can be too.
But I was sitting with this andI was like, yeah, why is this so
hard?
(18:57):
Because I have friends who areopposite.
They have kids and I don't havekids or they're extreme
introverts or we have totallydifferent religious beliefs or
we have different areas of lifewe struggle with.
And I was like, so wefundamentally have relationships
with people who are opposite usin so many areas.
Why does this feel so hard?
And it's really, for me, whatcome up, and I'd be curious to
know if it's the same ordifferent for you, but just the
word judgment was just really,really big.
(19:19):
Mm-hmm.
(19:42):
Being judged is the fear of likeyou not admiring me or you not
seeing me or you having theseterrible thoughts about me.
And to be, let's be frank andhonest, I'm giving those same
thoughts back to you.
Like I'm like a judgmentalperson and I hate to say that.
And so there's like a doublewhammy for me because A, I do
feel judgment and to pretend Idon't would not be truthful.
(20:03):
I do feel judgment.
And then I cover that up withlike shame because I don't want
to be somebody judgmental,right?
And so then it's like thisdouble whammy of like, I am
judgmental.
because I'll see something.
My first thought will be like,oh my goodness, how can somebody
vote for that?
This is so terrible.
And through my lens, my firstthought is just like, who is
voting for these people?
(20:24):
And then I'm like, okay, well, Ido know people who are.
And then I'm just like, oh mygoodness, that makes me feel
like such a terrible person.
And so it does a lot of internalwork around trying to And I
think all of us want to concludethat we're a good person.
So the easy thing to do is justbe like, well, I'm a good
person.
And then it's easier to devalueother people.
And I don't want to be somebodywho devalues myself.
I don't want to be somebodywho's devaluing other people.
(20:45):
But really, when I'm reallyhonest, what's so...
scary about these kinds ofrelationships, Lisa, is how much
the judgment is happening whenit's not even like you and me
together.
So I was thinking about this andI was like, you and I have had
four or five interactions.
They have all been amazing.
And I study relationships and Ilook at like that four to like,
we have to have five to onepositive emotions in a
(21:06):
relationship to keep arelationship healthy.
And if I were just judging it onyears of my interactions, I
would be like, we have got thatfive to one down.
But what's so damaging to thatratio is if I'm judging you
behind the scenes, if I'm havingnegative thoughts, or if I leave
a conversation feeling tiredbecause we are filtering
ourselves, then it's likesuddenly we're like bringing
this negativity into therelationship that has nothing to
(21:27):
do with you and has nothing todo with our dynamic and our
relationship.
It's like all what's going on inmy head.
And I realized like I'm bringingthe negative emotion into this
relationship, and that couldthreaten the relationship to no
fault of yours, just purelybecause I am processing my own
judgments.
And I read a really powerfulquote, I'm sitting with it
(21:48):
really a lot, and that is, theonly reason we ever judge
anybody is when we're trying toreinforce something in our own
identity.
And I've been really, reallysitting with that and just being
like, okay, so why is this soimportant to reinforce this
identity?
And what is the And so, yeah, Ihave a lot of work to do.
I realize that.
(22:09):
Like, I know I don't, I'm verygood at not showing up judging
people externally, but I havethe thoughts and I have to like
kind of do the exercises to likerelease them and to transition
them into something morebeautiful.
And I can get there and I can doit, but it's not my first
thought.
It's not my first instinct.
So yeah, one of the really hard,and I hate to say all this to
you because I'm like, one of thethings I'm going to want to
(22:29):
convince you of is like, I'm notgoing to judge you.
I'm going to accept you.
I want to be a safe place foryou.
And here I have to confess upfront, like I will have
judgmental thoughts and I will,I will have these things.
And so that's one of the reallyhard things about this for me is
like, that's one of the bigdownsides is I can see why it's
easier to be in relationship.
If you just don't feeljudgmental about what people are
(22:51):
doing, you know, but that's notanything about the person or the
relationship that's on me.
SPEAKER_00 (22:55):
Well, you said it so beautifully.
And I appreciate that youbrought up this sort of
self-awareness and the innerwork that you would need to do
in order to let go of judgmentbecause you spelled it out that
the judgment comes fromsomething within yourself that
needs to identify with a certainbelief or issue or political
(23:16):
candidate because there's somestrong things there, right?
To sort of hold on to.
And I've experienced this inconversations when it comes up
at dinner with new people whereeverybody's kind of feeling each
other out and you're sort oftiptoeing around it and you're
not really talking about it andthen it starts to come up and
then you can feel where it comesin in a wave with someone or
(23:38):
maybe more than one person andthen typically Lately, what I've
seen is then people draw back,they change the subject or they
don't go there, or they bring upanother subject that leads you
in a direction that supportslike kind of what they're
feeling.
I'm thinking about for myself,when we had this coffee and it
came up, the first you weresurprised and that a lot of
(24:00):
people are when they find outlike who I'm literally gonna go
vote for is so like notimportant to me, but it is to
some people.
And the why behind that is soimportant complex that that's
what i'm not willing to go intohere because you know i still
have a lot of protection aroundthat and don't want to be
attacked and i know what peopleare hearing about that over here
(24:24):
so there's a lot that i justwon't share until i feel safe
with someone and you like fromthe get-go in that conversation
you made me feel safe becauseyou were genuinely and i want to
emphasize that we're genuinelycurious about that
SPEAKER_02 (24:39):
i am
SPEAKER_00 (24:40):
and i could feel that And I think that's the
important part of us modelingthis conversation, because for
me, the downside is similar.
And what I would want to do islike, you know, the downside is
similar that we're going to bein this dynamic where we're like
filtering that.
Or if we decide to talk aboutit, it's going to be so like
(25:00):
both of us trying to make surethe other person feels okay
about their beliefs.
But meanwhile, we have judgment.
And you said not to be afraid ofoffending you.
So I'm going to say this to you.
I actually don't judge you.
And it's okay that you judge mebecause it's okay.
It actually is normal.
It's human.
And I would say what I alsoreal, I don't think that I judge
(25:21):
you because I actually havebeen, I've been all over the
spectrum politically that Iunderstand where you're coming
from.
Absolutely.
And so because I've been thereand I understand that, and I can
also see where behind all thesmoke and mirrors, we all want
the same things.
We really do.
We want the truth.
(25:41):
We want safety.
We want belonging.
We want security.
We want to feel safe in thisworld, connected to each other.
We want to, you know, you and Iboth want more love.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
(26:08):
Mm-hmm.
that they may not be comfortabletalking about or that might not
be a safe topic.
And I do that with even peopleon both sides because there's
division within division.
So I know there's certain topicsthat I just need to wait until I
feel safe talking about.
And I just don't like talkingabout politics in general.
(26:30):
I mean, I really don't.
I don't enjoy that sense ofhaving to explain or defend
myself.
I think there's so much more ofa deeper truth for me that goes
deeper Beyond that, I want to gohere because I think it's
important that we do.
And it's also something that Idon't really like talking about
(26:50):
and I don't find it rewarding.
You know, but it's important todo.
It's kind of like recycling.
It takes a little extra energy,but it's good for the planet,
SPEAKER_01 (27:03):
you know?
So we both clearly can see wheresome of the exhaustion, some of
the judgment, some of all thenegative feelings kind of come
up.
And so it asks, it kind of begsthe question, why do this then?
It certainly is most people'smodus operandus to just avoid
the subject in general.
For me, I think what's drivingme and, you is to kind of talk
(27:24):
about what is our ideal likewould it feel best to both of us
to say let's just not talk aboutthis or would it feel better
like we're going to name what weboth think is the ideal and kind
of see how far from each otherthey are or if we can kind of
cast this dream and this visionand negotiate that and I think
why it's worth doing that for meis kind of summarizing what
we've been saying it's justhaving a better understanding of
ourselves of each other of otherpeople in this world, it's so
(27:48):
much easier for me to not judge,quote, the other side if there's
people I love and I know on theother side.
That just fundamentally changeshow I feel about that.
So it becomes way less likelythat I'm going to want to get
rid of half the world becauseI'm like, those are people I
love and I know and I want themhere.
And I also really idealisticallydon't necessarily want a
(28:10):
relationship where certainthings are off limits, where I
feel like we're walking oneggshells with each other, where
we feel like we have to not hitthe landmines or something.
And so, yeah, as we're kind ofmoving into what does the ideal
relationship look like?
If you could craft this, howmuch would we talk politics or
would we not?
Or what would feel like theright mix of things for both of
(28:34):
us?
SPEAKER_00 (28:34):
Yeah.
So since we're talking about youand I, and we both have a lot of
intentionality with what we do,I think that we could create a
safe space for open, respectfuldialogue where we can share our
our perspectives and work onwhat comes up for us, both with
judgment and fear, all the stuffthat you and I keep processing
(28:55):
already.
It's so beautiful that we'vebeen sharing like, oh yeah, this
is scary for me because, and Ithink that's the work that we
all need to do.
And then identifying where we'reidentified, because if we can
all in this world start to letgo a little bit of that
identification and really seekto understand, yeah, that's
going to create I think for youand I, like a space where we can
(29:17):
role model, like how do you havethis conversation?
How can people have differentviewpoints and still respect
each other?
And yeah, I think we can feelproud about this when we do it.
You know, we can demonstratethat conversations can happen
without damaging relationshipsand deepening those
relationships by talking aboutwhat's coming up for both of us,
SPEAKER_01 (29:53):
you know?
Like, but it's not a subject wereally need to like go deep
into, or do you like findyourself?
Cause there's a little piece ofme that's like, I don't need
this to be like ourrelationship.
Like we are the politicalopposite friends and that's why
we're doing it.
There's so much other stuffpulling us together that we've
already loved and appreciatedthat had nothing to do with
those politics.
So I don't need this to be likesome exercise in us, like having
(30:15):
all these conversations.
And I am genuinely curious and Ido love the idea of getting
outside of my own bubble.
I do love the idea of having afriendship.
Like when I think about thefriendship triangle.
I hate the idea like on thevulnerability side that there
would be taboo subjects orthings that we just can't talk
about, or there's an elephant inthe room that we're trying to
avoid or, you know, just kind ofthis looming thing over us.
(30:37):
So I do love the idea of beingable to talk about it a little
bit.
I do want to hear your journey.
I do want to hear how you got towhere you are and what are some
of the biggest issues thatyou're really passionate about.
And I do want to show up withcuriosity and, and see you and
feel like you're in, I want youto feel like I know you in that
way.
Like it's not something that Idon't care about.
(30:57):
So yeah, kind of trying to findthat line of like, I do want to
have these conversations and Idon't want it to be like the
thing.
SPEAKER_00 (31:04):
Yeah.
I'm going to answer that in twoways.
One is to describe relationshipsI have with people who are
voting for someone different.
We talk about it.
It's like very little, you know,but it's dropped in right when
it matters.
Like here's something thatreally matters to me.
And this is why I really likewhat was said at that convention
(31:24):
or, you This is why, you know,and I did this with you on an
email where I said, here'ssomething that just happened
this week in the political arenathat is huge for me because it
actually, and, you know, I toldyou about how who I'm voting for
is very layered and complex.
And when you have like differentthings happening with other
people joining the team ofeither candidate that impacts
(31:48):
the whole different, everythingchanges, you know, it can either
strengthen or weaken yourposition based on like who's
supporting that candidate who'swhat's going to happen what are
they promising etc andultimately it's about who do we
think is actually lying to usversus telling us the truth and
we come from different places onthat but i think that when it
(32:09):
really matters is when i wouldwant to bring it up like i might
share with you like this came upfor me today where i felt
someone judging me because i'mof a certain gender and that
should matter more than certainthings or, you know, I might
bring up something that'shappening to me around the
politics that I need sort of toshare with a friend, that kind
(32:31):
of thing.
That makes sense.
Or we could also like just havea conversation where we kind of
intentionally create an arenafor us to both share and listen
and really listen from thatdeeper place.
SPEAKER_01 (32:42):
Yeah, I would do that.
There's something in my stomachthat goes, oh, that's a little
scary because...
And what I love about what we'redoing is naming up front our
goal.
So we don't just like, we don'tjust fall into this, right?
We're like choosingintentionally.
And I think that changes theenergy.
I think that changes thecontainer.
It's like, we both are willingto show up and bring our
biggest, best selves to theconversation.
(33:03):
So neither of us are gettingpulled into this at a
Thanksgiving dinner tableunexpectedly or unwillingly.
It's like two people choosing tosay yes.
And I'm choosing ahead of timekind of our ground rules, if you
will.
What do you need from me?
to feel the safest goingforward, having these
conversations?
What can I do in the mostmeaningful way?
SPEAKER_00 (33:21):
Yeah, I think the best way to answer that is to
call out the qualities you'realready exhibiting because
that's helping me look at me.
I'm here on a podcast talkingabout it.
I never would have thought Iwould be doing this.
I'm also not talking about whoI'm going to vote for on the day
of the election, because thatfeels very risky to me.
I'm protective that way.
(33:41):
It's a very personal decision,and it's even changed in the
past five years for me, the wayI would vote.
So I think that I would say justcontinue to be who you are, and
I'll call out what that is,which is you've been genuinely
curious and compassionate, eventhough you've I own it.
(34:02):
I know it's
SPEAKER_01 (34:15):
my judgment.
Yeah.
Thank you.
Yeah, I do feel it and I do nameit, but I definitely am clear
that it's not your problem.
SPEAKER_00 (34:23):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
And so it doesn't come across tome because, you know, I'm very
sensitive.
So I can feel when people thinkdifferently of me because of a
decision I make or a policy Ilike or whatever, you can feel
that, right?
And I'm not getting that fromyou.
So I would say for other peopleto just work on that, what are
you so identified with?
(34:43):
And for some people, they justwant to be right.
And I don't get that from you.
I get that you, like me, want toexplore friendship and
collective wisdom and all thesethings that would make our world
a better place.
And I don't think we would havethat conversation outside of
respect, right?
you know, deep respect for eachother.
SPEAKER_01 (35:00):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I love that.
And some of the things I've seenin you that give me great
courage and hope is like whenyou were saying at the, at the
end of the day, we all want thesame things and you were naming
those values.
And I think about that.
It's like, we do all have somuch commonality and I think
it's so easy to focus on thepart that's different and the
strategy of how we get there orwho's saying it better, who we
(35:24):
resonate with.
But I do love knowing that I canenter into a conversation with
somebody who's capable offinding our commonality, of when
we get into that, we can findwhat it is we're both really on
agreement on.
And I don't think that will behard if we can both show up with
that.
And you do.
You are somebody who just modelsthe ability to see both sides of
a situation.
You model being able to findthat commonality.
(35:47):
And so that makes it a muchsafer place.
You also model humility verywell.
I don't love entering intopolitical conversations with
people who just just aredefending that all the way down
the line.
I think it's really important toshow up.
There is crazy on both sides.
Like, and honestly, every policyput in front of us, none of them
are perfect, you know, andthere's like flaws in all of
(36:07):
them and there's compromises inall of them.
And to be able to like show upand be like, I don't need to
defend.
I don't need to explain.
We can admit like, yeah, I don'tlike this part of my candidate
and I don't like this part ofthat position.
And I'm embarrassed by my partydoing this thing.
And to be able to kind of likename some of that just feels
like there's an exhale in theconversation.
It's like, Like, okay, we're notjust like here on two different
(36:30):
sides, like arguing this thing.
And we can actually just kind ofcome together and find that
commonality and accept thatwe're going to get there
differently.
I mean, it's like, there's somany other areas of life where
we do this.
Like people who have kids anddon't have kids, you have to
navigate these conversationsabout, like, I would never be
like, that is just an off-limitsubject.
We are not going to talk aboutyou having a child because I
don't have one.
Like, I want to be like, how'sit going?
(36:51):
And what's the stage ofparenting like?
And tell me how your child isdoing.
And like, I want to be curious.
I want to know that side of you.
I would never be like that.
That's a taboo subject becausewe don't have that in common,
you know?
So yeah, being able to kind oflike hold that space for just
curiosity.
I think the other thing, Lisa,that I would name, and I don't
know if this feels like a fairthing to name, I'm open for you
being like, I don't know, that'snot a good expectation I have,
(37:12):
but...
I think if I were to feel 100%safe, it would be this shared
belief that not only are we bothaccepted exactly where we are,
but that we both work reallyhard at letting go of any desire
to change the other.
Yeah.
And I don't know if we can,like, I don't know.
I mean, I think a lot of peoplego in and be like, okay, I'm
going to be really accepting.
I'm going to be really kind, butlike deep down, I hope that I
(37:34):
can convince them or I hope Ican change them or convert them.
But I feel really sensitive tothat energy.
And I feel like if I felt atall, like you were hoping that
deep down, down the road, Imight change and maybe I will,
but maybe you will.
I mean, but like the energy oflike trying to change the other
person just feels icky to me.
(37:54):
Like, I'm curious if you thinkwe can have a friend where we
are like, no matter what, evenif you never change, like I
still love you and I still wantto know who you are and how
you're doing.
I
SPEAKER_00 (38:05):
actually love that.
I think if we were like, youknow, I'm an experienced
designer too.
So if I were going to design anexperience that helps people
heal this, I would put that intothe kind of like, almost like
the group rule.
Like, Yeah, absolutely.
(38:47):
someone's political affiliationor that they don't have one,
which is closer to me, actually.
But if you learn who someone'sgoing to vote for you
automatically, there's likethis, oh, that's just a blank,
blank, blank person that listensto blank, blank, blank news.
And so and you get these littlelike stereotypes in your head.
And I can say both sides ofthem, but I'm not even going to
(39:09):
do that right now because Idon't even want to add to that.
But that doesn't help.
Like you conjure up this imageof what this person must be like
because of who they're going tovote for.
That does not help us.
And it does not help youunderstand who that person is or
what's important to them.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (39:24):
I love that.
So if you had wisdom for usgoing forward, Lisa, or a hope
or a wish for us, whichever ofthose comes up for you, like
what do you, you know, we have anew friendship.
We don't have a lot of practicedoing this.
What advice would you give us?
SPEAKER_00 (39:39):
I would say if we can all start to work on on the
inside.
Like if we do the personalgrowth alongside our political
discussions and really onlyhaving them when it feels safe,
when it feels like you're comingfrom your heart and your genuine
curiosity of the other person,which means you're gonna listen,
And you're not trying to changethem and you're not attached and
(40:01):
you're not arrogant.
If you can come from that place,it actually will transform.
I believe it will absolutelytransform our world and
contribute to the healing andthe wisdom of crowds and the
political divide will soften.
Right.
If we can do that in oursociety.
But I don't think everybody'sready for that.
And I don't think.
Trying to do that when you'renot doing the inner work helps.
(40:25):
I think it hurts.
SPEAKER_01 (40:31):
Yeah.
doing the thing that you'restill, it doesn't mean you're
fearless.
It means you have the fear andyou still do something.
How do you know the difference?
Is it just kind of looking athow the other person's
energetically showing up and theintention?
SPEAKER_00 (40:51):
Yeah, I think just tuning into that question right
now, I think that we know whenwe can sort of sense when we
might be attacked or when theother person has an agenda, like
you were describing, likeknowing someone wants to change
your beliefs.
Like you can feel that and thatdoesn't feel safe It's also very
draining to be in a conversationlike that.
(41:12):
And we all have the right toprotect ourselves from that.
So I would just, I guess I wouldsay, you know, when it's safe,
like we can all feel that weknow when someone genuinely
cares about us.
We know when they're trying tochange us and we have every
right to stop that conversationand leave and come back to it
maybe when it feels safe again.
But like, I think we needcertain rules for this.
(41:34):
And part of that guidelineshould be self-awareness and
asking yourself questions oflike, where am I attached?
Where do I need to be right?
Where am I holding on to like anidentity rather than really
caring about this other person?
SPEAKER_01 (41:46):
That's so beautiful.
Well, Lisa, I wish for us...
I am a little nervous, but Ireally am proud of us and
hopeful.
And I'm already proud of us inthe future of having a
conversation.
I would love to have aconversation and find the time
and the place where I do get tohear your story and where we do
feel like we can both open thissubject up and not just say this
(42:08):
is a value to us to make this asafe subject, but let's prove to
ourselves we can do that.
And then I picture us being ableto just create a whole bunch of
other amazing, fun memoriestogether, just you and me with
our spouses, and just create afriendship that's based on so
many other things where thisbecomes one thing that's not a
big elephant in the room or abig taboo that we can kind of
come and visit every once in awhile.
(42:28):
But I also look forward to justcreating so many other wonderful
memories with you and continuingto deepen our friendship.
SPEAKER_00 (42:34):
Ditto.
I feel the same way.
Thank you so much for invitingme and being courageous with me.
And I'm very proud of us aswell.
SPEAKER_01 (42:43):
This is great.
Yay.
Yay.
Oh, that leaves me feelinghopeful and Thank you, Lisa, for
your willingness to come on andhave a conversation I would
guess neither of us have everhad before with other people.
And it's so powerful.
It's important that all of uskeep trying new ways and new
(43:05):
things in our relationships whenwe believe that they will add
value to our lives and to theworld that we're trying to
create here.
So beautiful.
When we can have like that metaconversation and you'll see my
hands, I'm like going up higherwhere sometimes we get caught up
in the specifics and thelabeling and the othering.
And if we can kind of go up acouple levels, we can be in this
(43:26):
other place up here where we canhave this conversation about
hearing each other's bestintentions and finding those
shared common values and hearingus both state who we want to be
in this world and the world thatwe want to live in.
And up here, we find all thesethings that we draw to each
other.
We lean in.
We're just like, yes, I feelthat way too.
Yes, I want to be in a worldwhere we aren't siloed.
(43:48):
Yes, I want to be in a worldwhere we are able to do this.
And we can hear that intention.
And it makes it so much easiergoing forward when we come down
that path into more specifics,we can remember that shared
commonality up there.
We can remember who we said wewanted to be up there.
We can give each other thebenefit of the doubt.
And so, so beautiful for all ofus to have conversations that
(44:11):
are up higher bigger, kind ofbroader, kind of those meta
conversations, because there'sso much more we agree on when
we're up there.
There's so much more love we canfeel when we're up there.
And that can inform us and giveus practice for when we come
down into some of the more nittyand the gritty in all of our
relationships.
And so, Lisa, thank you so much.
(44:31):
I know that when we have morespecific conversations, I have
this as proof in my body thatyou are somebody just so
beautiful, so pure, and I can'twait truly to hear your own more
specific journey.
I think for all of us, wehaven't had great modeling on
this subject of politics.
We haven't had it, honestly, infriendships in general, all that
(44:54):
well in a plethora of ways.
Many of us didn't have thatgreat modeling from family
members or parents.
Sometimes we kind of had somegood TV shows or perhaps a movie
here and there.
But when you think about it,where are we getting our
pictures of what relationshiplooks like and what
conversations we're supposed tobe having and how we're supposed
to do those conversations andhow we express love to each
(45:16):
other?
And so most of us are kind ofleft just replicating what we've
seen or kind of figuring it outourselves.
And I think about how sad thatis.
And when you go more specific topolitics, the modeling we've had
is truthfully quite terrible.
I think about like TV shows andthey're just, you know,
(45:37):
basically that's where we saytalking heads.
They're there to have a fewseconds of a sound bite.
And so they have to be superconvincing and have their facts
down.
And they're just kind of,they're in debate mode a little
bit, if you will.
And they're like just trying toshort, to speak in short
sentences and get their pointacross and be strong and
entertaining and all the things.
I mean, none of us want to sitdown and have a conversation
(45:57):
around a dinner table in thatformat.
And then we might have somememories of sitting around
certain family big tables,Thanksgiving tables, or being at
some rallies or some events orsome gatherings where either we
saw the worst, where we sawpeople fighting and criticizing
each other, or where we werearound people who just believed
like we did.
And so you can hear the energywhere you go, you know, just
(46:17):
start talking bad about otherpeople.
Like, how could they think that?
How do other people not knowthis?
How are they not doing this?
And we start being in aconversation where we're judging
and kind of putting down theother side.
None of this is how any of uswant to show up in our
friendships.
None of us want to be talkingheads.
None of us want to be in adebate.
None of us want to be like in acritical situation where we're
(46:39):
just putting other people down.
And yet we haven't had greatmodeling on this.
I think back maybe because Lisawas just referencing Rwanda and
the genocide, and I can talkabout that in a second.
But one of the other things Idid when I was in Rwanda is we
went...
through the jungles looking forthe silverback gorillas.
And we had to hire severalsecurity guards and people who
(46:59):
were guides and they hadmachetes and they were like
bushwhacking us through thejungle to go help find these
families of gorillas.
And it was one of the mostamazing things.
And yet, because we're not in azoo, we can't just walk down a
paved road and see the gorillasthere and be like, oh, they're
beautiful.
We had to go to where they wereat.
And so there wasn't a pavedroad.
There I think of that now asthat metaphor sounds so apropos
(47:26):
for those of us who are tryingto do politics and friendships
is we almost have to bushwhack anew way of being with each
other.
And that means it's going to bea lot harder of work.
That means you've got peopleahead of you who just have to
take those machetes and bechopping down vines and trying
to clear a path.
And it's not going to be apretty path because they're just
doing quick and dirty and we'rejust trying to get people
through.
(47:46):
The most amazing thing about apath, though, is the more we
walk it, the more people whofollow us walk it, the more that
eventually becomes a well-wornpath.
And so I don't know of how youfeel, but I feel like most of us
are looking around at thepolitical landscape and saying,
this feels gross.
This is not the world I want tolive in.
(48:07):
Everything is so divided.
I don't think most of us want tolive in a world that's this
divided, that has this muchconflict, that is this mean.
And yet, we are going to have tofind a new way if that's not the
world we want.
We're going to have to bushwhacknew paths because what we're
going to be tempted to do isreplicate what's being modeled
to us.
What we're going to be temptedto do is take the easy route and
(48:29):
think that when we show up inour friendships that we need to
debate, that we need to win.
We're going to make the mistakeof thinking that we need to have
all of our facts down and thatwe just have to be ready to
convince.
We're going to make the mistakeof saying hurtful things like we
hear others doing, but we'regoing to have the opportunity
here to say, you know what?
This isn't the world I want tolive in.
So I'm not going to keep walkingthe same tired roads.
(48:51):
And I know we can't all controlwhat's happening out there, but
we absolutely can control what'shappening in our little corner
of the world.
And so what you're witnessing metrying to do imperfectly, but
nonetheless, is saying, I don'twant to just look around and
say, I don't want to live in adivided world, but I have to
personalize that to myself andsay, Are my friendships a
(49:15):
reflection of that?
Am I practicing the integrationin my little world that I want
to see in the big world?
Because how silly for me to justsit here in my little world, in
my little silo, in a safe,little, comfortable friend group
that all looks like me and haslittle group think, and then
criticize the rest of the worldfor being divisive.
If I'm not actively contributingto uniting us than I am just
(49:39):
participating in this smallerversion.
Nonetheless, we may not be theones who are out there on the
forefront, but we arecontributing.
Everything we say, everything wedo is either energy toward more
united, more connected, moreloving, or it's energy towards
more divisive, more critical,and more mean.
And going back to that Rwandaconversation, I've walked that
(50:03):
genocide museum.
I've seen those memorials.
Many of you have been toHolocaust museums.
You know the history.
You know what humanity iscapable of.
So we know when we look at thespectrum, we know that on one
end of the spectrum, andgranted, I hope to God, it's an
extreme spectrum that we neversee and hit again, where there's
a genocide, where there's war,where we turn on each other and
(50:25):
where we think the other side isterrible, so terrible that we
need to get rid of them.
And we might not be there now,and this might feel too extreme.
And yet, if my very actions inmy day-to-day life are
continuing to contribute todivisiveness and insulting, then
I am feeding that path.
And so I really, really want tobe somebody who's enlarging my
(50:50):
ability to love, who loves theother more quickly, who can show
up and practice greater love inthis world.
And so I put out the invitationto all of us Let's bushwhack
together.
Let's start by practicing on ourfriends, on our family.
Let's trust the people around usare good.
Let's reinforce that.
(51:11):
Let's remind ourselves of that.
Let's fall in love again withpeople who believe differently
from us.
Let's build those bridges.
Let's reach out.
Let's put hands across theproverbial aisles.
Let's be the people that we aremad at Congress people for not
being able to be or to do or ourpoliticians.
But let's not just...
Put it all on them.
(51:32):
Let's own some of it forourselves.
And so last week we were talkingabout how important it is to put
positive emotions into ourrelationships, that every
relationship needs to, we needto feel loved by that person.
We need to feel accepted.
We need to feel like we enjoyeach other.
We can't be adding criticism andinsults and demeaning behaviors
and expect a good relationshipto be the outcome.
(51:53):
So we know the power of positiveemotions.
And now we have to build uponthat with consistency.
And you can go back to episodeone of my podcast if you want a
refresher on the threerequirements of relationship as
we're building up this triangle.
But what you saw with me andLisa today is we practiced
positive emotions.
We practiced holding that spaceof like assuming the best in
(52:14):
each other and stating ourdesired intentions to know each
other and promising who wewanted to be for each other.
So all of that left a positivefeeling.
I got done with the conversationand was like, yes, I want more
of her.
But now comes the hard work ofbacking that up with consistency
because a one-time amazingconversation isn't enough.
(52:35):
We've all had moments wherewe've done one thing really
well.
But if we, next time we gettogether, go back to our old
ways of doing things, it kind ofwipes it out a little bit.
Because when it comes toconsistency, we remember how
somebody is over the long run.
We remember the pattern.
We don't remember the one-offsas much as we remember the
feeling overall.
(52:56):
And so my one-time amazingconversation would quickly get
overshadowed if I turned andstarted becoming a different
person and started insulting andbeing critical and acting like
she was wrong and I'm the rightone and I need to fix her and I
need to give her all my sourcesand all the things that we're so
often tempted to do.
Instead, now we have thispositive emotion and my
(53:18):
invitation to myself is to say,okay, how do I make this
reliable?
How do I turn this one-timeexperience into something that's
repetitious?
How do I make this a well-wornpath?
How do I make this a well-wornpath?
And so when it comes toconsistency, I think part of it
is what Lisa and I are exploringis how much do we really want
(53:40):
politics to be a part of ourrelationship?
And we don't want it to be thewhole thing.
And so part of our consistencyis going to be how do we keep
inviting each other to go do funthings, have meaningful
conversations, to have some funevents, to still laugh, to go
have a good time, to have awhole bunch of other amazing
conversations.
So part of our consistency isputting politics...
in perspective, where it doesn'tovershadow, where it's not the
(54:03):
big thing, where it's not anelephant we're avoiding, but
neither is it the big one andonly subject.
And so our task is to create afun relationship where we get
together in a variety of waysand talk about a lot of
different things.
Another part of our consistencywill be to also figure out how
to do the politics in a waywhere we continue to practice
(54:23):
the very values we've stated upfront that matter to us.
So how can I consistently...
be somebody that she can trust?
How do I help be somebody thatshe can rely on?
How do I practice being theperson where I honor her
boundaries, where I ask her howshe's feeling, where I make sure
the space is safe for her, whereI follow up and ask her if it
(54:44):
feels safe to her, if there'sanything I can do that would
help make it more safe for her?
What can I do so that she cantrust me going forward, that
this is a pattern and not aone-time thing?
Because all of us want to be insafe and reliable relationships.
We want to be in relationshipswhere we have that pattern,
where we know that it'sreliable, where we know that the
(55:05):
one thing that we might notagree on is not going to
overshadow, and where weeventually build up skills where
we know that that one thing thatwe might not agree on, we can be
vulnerable enough and we canshow up and trust ourselves.
We can build trust as arelationship, that we can have
those conversations andabsolutely not just survive
them, but come through withgreater understanding.
(55:26):
greater compassion for eachother.
So boy, the metaphor ofbushwhacking and creating a path
just kind of is rising up inthis little conversation here
for all of us as we might betrying to start new patterns,
change our habits, add more loveto our lives.
My invitation to all of us isthat we be gentle with ourselves
as we're experimenting.
(55:47):
This doesn't come naturally.
It hasn't been modeled to us.
So let's bushwhack for good andlet's trust that as we keep
being consistent in our lives ofwho we want to be and how we
want to show up, that as we keepoffering our best, that we keep
practicing new things, where wechange the beliefs in our head
that we rise when somebody elsefalls, where we don't feel like
(56:07):
it's a teeter-totter, where wehave to make ourselves feel
better by pushing someone elsedown, where we remind ourselves
on a consistent basis that I canhave values, I can have vision,
I can be excited about certaincandidates, certain beliefs, I
can be passionate.
And that doesn't mean I need topush somebody else down in order
to have those views.
And so I need to practice doingthat consistently.
(56:29):
in my own head and in myfriendships and then trust that
as I get better and better atdoing that in my little corner
of the world, that it will makea bigger difference in the big
world that we live in.
So thank you for joining me.
Thank you for being anotheridealist, another person who
knows that we would rather livein a world that is more
(56:50):
connected, not less connected,and who takes responsibility for
helping bring that connectionabout.
It has been such an honor, suchan honor to have you in this
conversation today.
I hope it raised a few questionsfor you, made you think of a few
people in your life that maybeyou will reach out to, maybe
thinking through who we want tobe in this world and how we, in
(57:12):
our own little small ways, canpractice being the very thing
that we want to see all aroundus.
Next week, we are ending theseries with a final conversation
I'm inviting a couple of myfriends on where we are going to
talk about how Even when we'vethought we've been on the same
page, why don't we talkpolitics?
So many of us choose maybebecause as we've looked at in
(57:33):
this series, talking aboutpolitics can feel hard.
And so, so many of us havechosen to just say, you know
what, in my relationships, wejust don't talk politics.
And that's kind of a big policya lot of us take on.
And next week, a couple of myfriends and I are going to look
deeper at that unspoken policyand say, Is that the right way
to go?
Or are we missing something whenwe don't do that?
(57:54):
And so we're going to have aconversation about is silence
really the best way to go in arelationship?
So I hope that you join us forthat.
And our goal each week is justto help us think bigger thoughts
and open up to a little bit morelove, maybe make our circles a
little bit wider, maybe do alittle bit better of a job of
(58:15):
inviting people in, maybe doinga better job of deepening
intimacy with a few people inour lives, but above all,
building the relationships inour lives that are more
fulfilling.
You've been listening toFrentimacy.
May we all find our way to morefulfilling friendships.
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