April 22, 2025 • 56 mins
Host Eileen Walsh welcomes poet and author Cheryl Cantafio for an intimate exploration of grief, creativity, and finding hope in life's messiness. Through vulnerable conversation, they discover how storytelling connects us and helps us navigate both personal and collective grief.
• Cheryl describes herself as "a woman watching the world burn and bloom"
• Losing her mother sparked a creative journey that led to publishing multiple books
• Writing provided an organizing effect for processing difficult emotions
• Grief fundamentally changes us, rewriting who we are and how we move forward
• Storytelling creates connection that helps combat loneliness
• The vision for a better future requires encouraging people to share their authentic stories
• Grace has "evaporated" from society, but it's essential for our collective wellbeing
• Finding humor in difficult times can be a survival mechanism
• Friendship and connection are gifts that help us stand back up after falling
Wherever you are right now, take a breath and consider: What does it feel like to be you? Share your story—we need to hear it.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome listeners.
This is the From here to Hopepodcast and I am your host,
eileen Walsh.
So this podcast is a space forhonest conversations about where
we are, what we're holding andwhat we dare to dream is still
possible.
It's not about fixing orforcing, but slowing down long
(00:22):
enough to hear the truth ofwhere we are right now, because
hope isn't a destination, it's adirection.
And wherever you are right nowand my dear guest with me today
I'm going to invite you to takea breath so we can really step
into this conversation together.
So, in your nose, out yourmouth Welcome Today.
(00:54):
I am so honored to welcome myincredible friend and co-host of
our podcast.
You Only Go Once Cheryl Cantafio.
Cheryl is an IT professional byday and a poetry and children's
book writer.
All other hours from Norristown, pennsylvania, when she's not
writing, she spends time withfamily, friends and her two pups
(01:15):
, reads gothic, horror andthriller novels or binge watches
movies and television serieswith her husband.
Her book, my stay with thesisters poems, was her debut as
an author and poet in may 2023.
In 2024, she wrote and releaseda place no flowers grow, a
gothic poetic tale, and she willsonnet, a folklore chat book.
(01:39):
And barry and the big jump,which I love dearly so much, her
debut children's book about ajumping spider with big dreams.
I have to say sorry, I knowthis is not part of your bio.
However, all of these bookshave been such a beautiful
journey for me.
To watch you grow on and beable to read each one of them,
(02:02):
to feel different parts of youwas so magical and special and
such a privilege for me, andit's been incredible to see you
in this becoming of this writerand author.
So I just want to share thatand that you are such an
incredible human in my life andI'm so, so grateful to have you
(02:23):
here today.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
Welcome Well here today.
Welcome Well, shucks.
Okay, hello everyone.
Hi, my dear friend Eileen, howare you?
That was a lovely introductionand also it really touches me
that you found some connectionin the books, because that's
(02:45):
really what it's about instorytelling.
So I'm really really excitedand happy to be here and see you
continue your journey as astoryteller as well.
This is really really cool andexciting.
So I am happy to be here andhappy to be your first guest and
, yes, it's all all wonderfuland fantastic.
(03:07):
So it is.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
And so this is the first real episode.
I have an introduction episodefor myself before, but the idea
for this podcast is to really gothrough four questions.
So Cheryl and I are going tonavigate through the four
questions I'll be asking everysingle guest and, yeah, it's a
(03:32):
way to explore where each personis that one.
I just find people amazing andinteresting.
I also understand that beingable to create a future is going
to take every single one of usand our vision for what that is,
instead of sitting in the muckof all of it.
(03:53):
Yes, how do we start creatingthat stuff together?
How do we start envisioningwhat that looks like?
And I want to hear from peopleon how they think we can do that
, because that, to me, is thefirst real step in being able to
move into that space.
So so we'll navigate into that.
And the first question that I'mgoing to ask, cheryl, but first
(04:17):
I'm going to ask you, audience,to also consider this, to also
consider this, and I'll ask youto consider it every single
episode, because it's going tochange.
I guarantee it's going tochange for you every single time
you consider it.
But what does it feel like to beyou right now?
(04:38):
Right, just take a minute, letit sit right.
Just take a minute, let it sit.
Maybe it's feelings in yourbody, maybe it's some emotions
you have coming up from the daybecause Lordy knows, those can
come up but whatever that is,wherever you are, just what does
it feel like to really be youin this moment in time, in this
(05:03):
moment in space, where you arein your life, where you are in
your career, where you are inthe world?
Right, that's huge right now.
And what does that feel likefor you?
And I would love to be able tohear your stories, as well as
(05:25):
these amazing people that I'mbringing on as guests as well.
So reach out and share whatyour thoughts are for today.
So now I'm going to dive inwith Cheryl, my friend.
Yes, what does it feel like tobe you right now?
Speaker 2 (05:42):
well, I gave this a lot of thought and look I a.
I'm a woman in my 50sStatistically speaking, I've got
more years behind me than aheadof me and really I'm a
menopausal woman who's watchingthe world burn and bloom.
That's, you know, just watchingit from a, you know, from a
personal perspective.
(06:02):
You know, my mom died frompancreatic cancer after she
survived a pandemic.
It was also 51 days before my50th birthday.
You know, her death reallyaltered me and it continues to
alter me, and there are momentsin life that define people, and
losing her ignited my nextchapter.
(06:24):
So, and I will say, like,whether the main character
energy I'm bringing now isbetter or worse remains to be
seen, right, so stay tuned.
You know, and for me, you hadmentioned it before right, I
dove, really I dove into writingto help me grapple with feeling
consumed by loss, and some daysit works and other days I want
(06:48):
to go full hermit.
So I'd like to share this quotefrom Susan David, who's a
psychologist, she's an emotionsresearcher and she's the author
of the book Emotional Agility.
So she recently posted on hersocial media the following about
grief Grief is the experienceof being changed by loss, it
(07:08):
says to us.
This was a before this happenedand an after this happened.
I will move forward, but I willnever be the same.
So writing about our difficultemotions, including grief, can
help us move forward in healthyways.
When we put our difficultexperiences into language,
(07:30):
research shows that it has anorganizing effect.
It allows us to see not onlythe difficult parts of the
experience but what we mighthave learned or gained, and it
helps us process it.
Grief changes us.
(07:50):
It rewrites us and we in turn,rewrite our lives with it.
And I thought that was sopoignant and so on point, and I
think for me, writing felt likethe way to go for that
expression.
And you know, we're also herefrom a world perspective.
(08:11):
We're living in a time when theland of the free and the home
of the brave is blatantly,recklessly erasing women's
accomplishments, contributionsand access.
Yeah, um, so we're living in atime where people ban books.
I don't get.
(08:32):
I still don't get.
To this day, books open worldsto readers.
I mean, you know how the helldoes anyone feel justified in
culling imagination or historyor education?
I still don't get it.
So we're in this really weird.
Personally, for me, I'm in aworld of loss.
I know that others are like, andagain, Susan David's called it
(08:55):
right.
This is what happened beforetime I think everybody's talking
about, like what happenedpre-pandemic versus
post-pandemic in their worlds.
And we're all still in thiscycle of complex grief, but,
that said, there's also momentsof blooming.
I don't know how I would havegotten through it without
(09:16):
friends like you, family, thewriting communities that I'm
part of now, and also connectingwith people who read the books
and said, yeah, I get it, like Ican see that, so, um, you know.
So what does it feel like to beme right now?
It feels really freaking messy.
(09:38):
Um and that's kind of where I am.
Um, you know, life is, life isgreat, and then sometimes life
is not great and you just kindof move on and you figure out
what's the best thing you can do.
And for me, again, it waswriting, joining writing groups,
listening to other people'sstories, making those
connections.
(09:59):
You know, bless us becausewe're all humans, and yes, we
are in.
You know, bless us becausewe're all humans and, yes, we
are in.
You know, we're fallible,infallible.
Which one is the word?
Speaker 1 (10:10):
I'm a math major.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
I don't know I right, okay, so we'll go look that up.
Um, I think it's.
We're fallible, right, we'rejust.
You know, we make mistakes,hence this whole part of the
interview where I can't rememberif it's infallible or fallible.
But you know, it's just a messytime, yeah, and I'm really
feeling the messy portion of it,and I'm also grateful that I
(10:34):
have friends that have alsoembraced the messy and are
trying to find the way through.
So that's where I am.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
Oh, totally, there are a couple.
I mean, all of that wasbeautiful.
I, as soon as you said burn andbloom, like that just touched
me really deeply, like I justhad this picture of each one of
(11:03):
our hearts and and like italmost being this like fertile
ground, right, sorry, I go tothe plant stuff.
I love plants, I love gardening, all of the stuff, right, but
you know, just like in inforests and things like that,
you have these moments ofwildfires that clear things out
(11:25):
to make way for new growth,right, and I just imagine these
little pieces of our hearts thatbecome burned and then new.
These new blooms come fromthose, and how much we have.
We hide some of that because ofthe, the pain of the things
(11:46):
that come through, because ofthe struggle of just allowing
for the, the new blooms, tostart growing, right, like those
are so hard and we have topretend like we're in full bloom
all the time and we're not.
It's impossible, right, it'simpossible to do and, yeah, I
(12:12):
just that's just really that theimagery of it was so profound
for me and, um, it's soimportant to know that anyone
can be in the middle of both atthe same time, for sure, right,
yeah, yeah, yeah, whether it'sin, you know you could have.
(12:34):
Your personal life maybe is inburn right now and your
professional life is happeningin bloom yeah for sure, whatever
that looks like.
But yeah, I just one thank youfor bringing that.
(12:59):
Yeah, for sure it.
But you know you brought upwhen your mom passed.
Um, you know these, thesereally big moments in our lives,
right there's, there'scertainly like micro moments of
I got, maybe I passed up on apromotion or you know, like
something didn't quite go right,but there's also these really
large parts that are defining.
(13:23):
Like that.
To me, that defines, right, whoI become now and who I this,
who I am now after this moment,and do you think that you have
any definition or thoughtsaround the who I am now or after
?
That happened with your mompassing?
Speaker 2 (13:48):
I had to figure out who I was as an adult and it's
really weird to say that becauseclearly I'm in my fifties I am
an adult.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
There's rumors.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
There's rumors.
So, but it's just you know itwas just the timing of
everything, right, like we wereall celebrating, you know, we
were finally able to get tostart to see one another.
The pandemic piece had kind ofdied down, and then her
pancreatic cancer diagnosis justfelt like a gut punch.
(14:22):
And then I look at it, too,right, like I see, you know, all
of our family members aredealing with it in different
ways and I know for me, like Ididn't have kids, so I'm child
free, and sometimes it feelslike I'm childless and I there
(14:44):
are times where I really wish wecould have given her
grandchildren, or could havegiven my dad grandchildren, but
that just wasn't in the cardsand you know what.
That's okay, yeah, um, she doeshave a lovely grandchild and,
uh, that's a.
That was a good thing and shegot to experience that.
But then there's all this otherpiece about your evolution as a
(15:07):
woman.
So I went from you know you gofrom you know a repeat cycle
every month to like it's allgone and with that comes all the
weird stuff, right, the hotflashes, the cold flashes, the
brain fog.
The brain fog has beenastronomical and there's a part
(15:32):
of me or actually there's a bigpart of me that wishes I could
talk to her about that and saywhat did you go through?
Now she had kind of prepped meand said you better be prepared
for the hot flashes, becauseit's no joke and she was not
kidding, um, but it's all thestuff afterwards, right, it's
all the stuff that it's startingto get documented now in terms
(15:55):
of, like, what happens to womenduring menopause.
Um, just the, the emotionalpieces, like physiologically,
yes, like we know what happens,but then it's like all the
emotional pieces that you'relike, oh, I didn't see that cry.
Oh, so we're going to cry atthe drop of a hat.
That's cool, it's all of thatand it's just, you know it's
(16:17):
missing.
That part of it that kind ofcould say like mom, did you go
through this?
Or how did that feel, mom, didyou go through this?
Or how did that feel?
That said, there's a part of methat's also glad she's not
seeing the train wreck that Ican be sometimes.
So there's also that piece ofit.
(16:38):
So, like I said, it's messy.
It's very much a feeling ofmessy.
Um, you know, there's things Iwish you were around for that
that don't have anything to dowith me but just have to do with
our family.
So there's definitely thatgrief, is definitely messy.
It's just a messy, messy thing,and I don't think it's a unique
(17:05):
experience to lose your motheror your or sorry, I was
sympathetic and I just didn'treally understand the enormity
(17:31):
of it until it happened to me.
So it's just a different vibe.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
Yeah, as someone who has not yet lost a parent, you
know, um, I just gosh, I was, Iwas going to say something, but
just to be in the messiness withyou, but, um, I was like, oh, I
(18:10):
hope I was there.
I don't need you to, I don'tneed a validation that I was
there for you, but like I feel Ifeel what, what you felt in
that right Of the like I, I hearwhat you're saying.
I can't totally relate to itand I'm, I want to be there for
my, my friend, and I don't evenknow what it feels like to know
how to show up for this personand yeah, I just it's.
It's so.
There's these phases in lifewhere it's like you don't know
(18:30):
until you know, and then you'repart of this club of things you
kind of wish you weren't a partof.
Sometimes.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
And again, I know I'm I'mmaking this very personal with
the loss of my mom, but therehas been since I would probably
say late 2019, early 2020, thisoverall overarching grief that I
(18:58):
think we as a collective haveexperienced, have experienced
and I do think it's wonderful,from the perspective of the
Bloom perspective, to see thepeople who were able to come out
of it from the other sideflourish and you know, I've
talked to so many people wherethey're like, yep, I'm living
(19:20):
life, like I will, you know, I'mgoing to do all the things, I'm
going to eat all the things.
I mean, you remember, we, youknow we all were like, well,
we're in this pandemic, I'mmaking sourdough bread.
I mean we yeah, yeah, I'm eating.
I'm eating the carbs, kids, um,and you know, from that we
learned.
(19:40):
I would like to say we learnedempathy.
I would really like to say welearned empathy.
I would like to say we learnedabout personal space.
I would like to say we learnedabout humanity, and I think to a
(20:01):
certain extent we have.
And then there's this other part, right, where we just see that
I just think we need a littlemore grace in the world.
I'm probably skipping ahead onyour questions, but yeah, yeah,
it would be lovely to see someof that grace and I have.
(20:23):
I am really grateful to myfriends who have exhibited grace
, because I was a hot mess and Istill have my moments where I
kind of just spiral and squirreland everybody's like come on
back, kid, come on back, it'sfine, you'll be fine, come on
(20:47):
back, it's fine, you'll be fine,and I'm grateful for that.
So if there's anything I canrecommend to people, count your
blessings, count yourfriendships, count your family,
because it is.
We don't get out of thiswithout having those communities
and connections, without havingthose communities and
connections.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
Definitely.
It's also interesting too inthat you know, you say that or
what you were kind of talkingabout was like you're even still
going off and having thesethings.
These are normal feelings tohave, right.
Yes, to have loss isheartbreaking.
(21:28):
To have grief is soul-wrenching, like to then have to.
To me, it's unnatural topretend like they didn't happen
and I'm just supposed to be insome natural not even natural
but like I'm supposed to justget back and do my shit, right.
(21:50):
Yep, that, to me, is theunnatural part.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
And it's really funny because we've been operating so
long in this ability tocompartmentalize and again, and
especially particularly like youlook at just the way that we
work it's somebody passed away.
We're sorry for your loss.
Here's anywhere between threeand seven days.
(22:17):
We're good, right?
Okay, welcome back, let's moveforward.
And I get it.
I think there's a fine linebetween moving on and moving
forward, and I don't know if wealways get it right.
And again it goes back to we'rehuman, we're still trying to
(22:43):
figure this whole thing out, andalso that people process grief
in so many different ways in somany different ways.
There are people that love thecompartmentalization right.
They're like okay.
Sure, yeah, yeah.
And it's to them.
It's like okay, I, I need thisto survive, so I am going to do
(23:05):
this, I'm going to grieve andthen I'm going to move forward,
and that's great for them.
There are other people who needa little bit more, and I think
we need that grace, like we.
We need to provide the graceand we need to give the grace to
ourselves.
(23:25):
So there's all part of that too.
Like I said, super messy, supermessy that's the beauty I mean
to me.
Speaker 1 (23:33):
That is, I always really love like impressionist
art and stuff because I like themessy, like I am drawn to the
messy.
That's like a whole otherconversation, but it just makes
it so beautiful also at the sametime, and I can't imagine it
(23:58):
any different.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
It's so funny because I appreciate that you like the
messy, I do not like the messy.
Messy breaks me like messy.
I'm like, and you know, if yousaw my house you'd be like, are
you sure?
Speaker 1 (24:11):
about that.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
Are you sure?
But you know, even prepping forthis, like I like to be
organized, I like to like, okay,this is happening, this is
happening, this is happening.
Um years ago, when I used to dodinners, I would have pages of
this is going to happen at thistime, this time, this time, and
the internal meltdown that Iwould feel if that went off the
(24:35):
rails.
Um, it was not pretty, uh.
But again, I think there's apart of that too where, again,
if you look at my house, it'smessy as hell.
Not even going to lie about it,I live with somebody who has
everything, has its place andthere's a place for everything,
(24:56):
and I just kind of go, that's aconstruct and I'm just going to
leave my shoes here and that'sokay.
So, again, just messy.
But there have been some thingsthat I've had to, for my own
sake, have had tocompartmentalize and organize,
and I think that's how I gotinto writing.
Is writing felt both freeingand also organized in that?
(25:22):
Okay, you know, when I startedlooking poetry which if you had
told me, if you had told myyounger self, guess what, you're
going to write a poetry bookand you're going to publish it,
I would have been like okay,yeah, but that for me, poems
have so many differentconstructs and so many different
flavors, and I picked ones thatappealed to me, read them, saw
(25:47):
the formats that they were, andI thought, okay, well, I can
compartmentalize my own thoughtsand feelings into these
different formats, and that wasa beautiful thing.
And that's the part where itdidn't feel like it was burning
anymore.
It felt like okay, like there'sa there's, because it brought
(26:11):
in the introduction of not justgrief, but it brought in
gratitude.
So the title of that book myStay with the Sisters the
sisters are grief and gratitudeand they're basically reimagined
as sisters and I really I foundsolace in them in particular,
(26:34):
just because it felt like it wasokay to rage and then it was
okay to just reminisce, it wasokay to feel like you just
wanted to be in bed all day andthen it felt okay being out,
spending time with people toconnect.
So there were all thesedifferent things that were
(26:55):
coming about from that um, andthen the punch came where I had
been vulnerable and I shared afew poems with people just
because I was like this is, youknow, this is kind of how this
was working and and also, to becandid, I had signed up for a
(27:16):
writing competition that I foundout wasn't really on the up and
up.
So here I was with 15 poems,going like, okay, I've got 15
poems, and in a moment ofvulnerability I gave them to
friends and my best friend,julie, came back and said I
think this will help people.
Then I set a goal and I went upwriting like 110 poems and I
(28:10):
think that's what you see and Iwas genuinely excited.
This was like her first bigthing.
I was like cool, this was a funexercise and I appreciate it.
And then, you know, friendskicked me in the butt and said
what are you waiting for?
Like get it done.
And I got it done and I threwit out there and I held my
breath and what I found waspeople were saying, yeah, I get
(28:33):
this.
Yeah, this is my favorite partof the book because of X, y and
Z.
And I was really stunned and Ithink there is magic in
storytelling.
I think there's magic in umsharing stories, even when it
feels scary to do it, andthere's magic in having the
(28:58):
conversations as a result ofthose, uh, of those shared
stories yeah, oh, absolutely, um, so it's where I'm gonna go
kind of into question twobecause of this.
Speaker 1 (29:11):
So, um, I've just seen so, in this evolution for
you, like there has been so muchthat has come from this writing
journey that has shared a partof your soul that I don't know
if you were anticipating orknowing, right that to to share
(29:38):
with other people and that wastouching.
I just I find this about art sobeautifully that it's like,
whether it's writing, whetherit's a painting, whether it's
music, like we are sharing apiece of our soul in the art
that we create and express intothe world, and getting chills
(30:03):
right now, but just like seeingthose things come from you,
hearing and reading those thingsthat have come from you have
just been such a beautifuladdition into this world.
Right, that didn't exist and wedon't have to go down the AI
path, but like your experienceof all of that could only ever
have been written by you,because it was what you felt and
saw and understood and found somuch validity and authenticity
(30:28):
and being able to bring in that.
That is why I feel like so manyother people connect and see
that, that light and thathumanity and that connection,
and I just we need so much moreof that in this world and to
(30:49):
support that and what that canlook like right Like is is this
whole idea of what is.
What is your vision Like?
I'm seeing you on this amazingcreator journey for you, when
you think of a future visionthat is a better space place,
the way we have relationships,the way we talk to each other,
(31:09):
whatever that is.
What does that look like fromwhat you've done and seen and
become and are becoming?
What does that look like?
What do you think that lookslike?
What does that look like?
What do?
Speaker 2 (31:21):
you think that looks like I mean I don't know.
My vision for a better futureis really simple.
I want people to share theirstories so that others can learn
, obtain perspective, embracejoy, have their eyes open, feel
a connection to others, and Iwant those storytellers to
continue world building Like Ijust think all of that is really
(31:41):
important, because you neverknow Again and I said this right
, like that's my vision is tocontinue to tell our stories,
because along with grief comes alittle bit of loneliness, and
we're seeing a lot of that now.
We're seeing people sayingthey're either feeling alone or
(32:04):
they're lonely, and what I'veseen from the book community is
that people are diving intothings like fantasy, romance,
like oh my goodness, the romanceBooks have just blown up.
People are opening upbookstores that are specifically
for romance stories.
Speaker 1 (32:27):
How cool is that right?
Speaker 2 (32:29):
Because we want that connection and we want that man.
I would love to see thiscontinue.
Let's give.
I mean, how beautiful is itthat, in a time where you still
have individuals who want to banbooks, you have this whole
other community that says holdmy beer, and here's another
(32:50):
great story, and people areconnecting and they're going
like, we love this, like this isthe thing that gives me joy.
Books also lead to movies andtelevision.
Books also lead to discussionsand communities.
I just love it.
I love this.
(33:11):
This is the part of my nextchapter that I'm really excited
about because I think workingwith and especially in the local
author communities that I'm in,you get to see the spark of.
I just talked to somebody lastweek or the week before that was
(33:31):
talking about her research intoa historical fiction that she's
writing and I was captivatedbecause she went to different
local museums and this onecharacter just kept on coming
out to her, who was a realperson that she's going to build
(33:51):
it based on it, and I thoughtisn't that cool, like isn't that
the neatest thing that theywent back into history and said
look at all these untold,important and people are going
to reflect on these now and inthe future and go, man, what a
(34:26):
ride, what an absolute ride.
Their worlds must have beenright.
I know people kind of poo-poosocial media, right, because
it's.
You know, I'd seen memes yearsago where it's like we've
invented this and then, you know, then it comes up with a social
media thing that says word.
(34:46):
We have a thing called, youknow, named after a bird, the
sound that the bird makes, andit's like, really Like we went
from this to this.
And no harm, no foul, because Ialso think there's value in
that too, in communicating andtelling stories.
But I just think there's so muchto learn from this time period.
(35:10):
Again, it has been an absolutewild ride.
We're going to see the kidsthat were graduating high school
and college and go, and they'rejust going to be like, yeah,
this, like our experience wasnot your experience.
Here's why and here's what welearned from it and here's how
we rose from it.
And I'm super proud of thisfuture generation, or this
(35:31):
upcoming junior I shouldn't sayfuture generation, but of this
upcoming of these upcominggenerations.
Like you've got, you know, theGen Z, the alpha.
Is it Beta now?
Are we up to Beta?
We're up to Beta, aren't we?
Speaker 1 (35:43):
I don't even know, maybe.
Speaker 2 (35:46):
Right, but they're learning so much and they're
looking back and going likey'all had it easy, like this is,
and I feel like everygeneration does that right, like
you don't even know you don'teven know like we had this.
I would say our generationwe've seen well, sorry, my
generation we've we've seen thetechnological advances in
(36:10):
science and technology andcommunication is just staggering
and at the pace that it's beenthrown at us.
There are some times whereyou're just like all right, like
can I just?
I'm just going to go and writein a journal at this point
because I'm tired of the screensand all that other stuff, right
, but that's the whole point,that's the whole beauty of this.
So my vision for a betterfuture is that we continue to
(36:34):
encourage people to tell theirstories and then encourage the
storytellers.
So, for example, you're astoryteller, you're helping
other people tell stories.
Let's continue to do that, andI just I don't know, I'm just
and again, for me, the future isas bright as the stories we
(36:56):
tell and the truth that weprovide and the perspectives
that we give, so that peoplefeel less alone in the universe
and they feel like, ok, well, Ihad this connection and I maybe
(37:16):
didn't have before, or I feelless lonely because this person
did have this perspective.
Again, you know, I could saythis a thousand times I'm not
the only one in the universe wholost my mom, right, but every
person's story is different.
Like everyone who loses aparent, they have a different
perspective.
And again, that's wherestorytelling comes in, right,
(37:41):
because I think people arealways like nervous about it,
right, they they talk about.
Well, I don't know if peoplewill care, and the thing is,
people do care because they wantto.
They want that connection.
So, yeah that's.
That's where.
That's where the secret sauceis is in the storytelling.
Speaker 1 (37:59):
Absolutely, and I mean, I couldn't agree more.
I'd also say, just to piggybackonto that point, that even if
your first step is to write itfor yourself's, okay at first,
(38:20):
right, yes, and and the sharingof that is a whole different way
to connect with other humans.
It's hard, it's look, it's hard.
You know you and I have talkedabout this before, the writing a
book versus becoming apublished author are two very
(38:41):
different things 100% and andalso everyone's first draft is
garbage Okay.
Speaker 2 (38:50):
You write it and you're like and and that's
that's the turning point is youlook at it and you're like well,
that's not seeing the light ofday.
Give yourself a breather andgive yourself some grace in that
and continue.
You know, again and I talkabout books there are people
that write songs.
There are people that you knowwrite movie scripts.
There are people that you knowthey write obituaries, they
(39:14):
write greeting cards.
All of that is part of who weare.
And, again, words giveconnection.
So, yeah, so I get it.
Yeah, eileen, you and I havetalked about that for sure,
where it's one thing to write abook and it's definitely another
thing to put it out there inthe universe.
(39:36):
And it is not for the faint ofheart, for sure.
Speaker 1 (39:41):
No, no, no, it's not.
But the other thing that I wantto add to that too is you kind
of you tapped into this right isthat you're not the only one
that's lost your mom?
Yeah Right, um, I also had thisconversation with my mom
recently, in frustration aboutbeing a parent.
(40:01):
Sometimes you're like I havetold you this so many times.
Speaker 2 (40:07):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (40:09):
Now, this person over here said it and somehow you
heard it right you know it, butsometimes it is the right person
at the right time with theright person, or not right.
It's not the right word, butthe the perspective you needed
to hear at that moment thatclicked for you.
(40:30):
And so just because someoneelse has written about stuff, or
someone else has paintedsomething about whatever, or
someone's written a song aboutthis, the way that you only you
specifically can bring that intothe world could be a life
changer for somebody else 100%.
Speaker 2 (40:51):
I mean, look, we've talked to a couple of authors,
right, like, look at LangRickers, right, she talked about
sibling loss and her book wasstunning and it was such a
beautiful gift to the universeand she still shares that.
We've talked to Jenny Lisk, wholost her husband at an early
age and what she's done with herstory is phenomenal.
(41:16):
I'm going to point out twoother people.
Yeah, both women.
One is Jessica Jocelyn, andshe's a poet of her mother and
um several other differentlosses in a way that is just
heart-wrenching and glorious allat the same time.
(41:38):
And then one of my, one of myfavorite poets is nishi patel,
and nishi and I met through um,a poetry group, and um, she
wrote, she wrote a book aboutthe loss of her father and then
the after she wrote a like,almost like a sequel to that in
(41:59):
poetry format.
Both are poetry books aboutwhat it's been like seven years
later and the impact of that isso significant.
Yeah, um, I also have anotherfriend who's written about the
loss of her grandmother and whatthat meant, and her name is
cassandra vilchis.
And um, you know, just powerfulworld words and powerful
(42:20):
stories.
They all didn't pass away thesame way, um, but the
connections to the story and tothe loss um is very palpable and
I am so proud of all of themfor putting their stories out
there, because again you havepeople that are come, you know,
(42:41):
coming out of the boardwalksaying, yeah, I felt that way
too.
Yeah, I completely understandthat.
Speaker 1 (42:46):
So yeah, anyway.
Anyway vision for the futureI'm telling your stories yeah,
yep, and so I think you'vetouched on this, but I'm gonna
just reiterate, just to makesure folks know what is the one
thing of the many um that weneed to give people grace.
Speaker 2 (43:22):
I think we need to allow grace for ourselves.
We need to be better activelisteners.
Right now, we're in a time andagain.
I know that there are going tobe listeners, probably from
international.
I would say that we are in.
Everybody just wants to stickit to one another, and what you
(43:55):
have are people that just wantto live.
Yeah, they just want to be, youknow.
They want to work, they want tobe contributing members to
society.
Yeah, um, they want to be ableto afford things for their kids.
They want to be able to justexist, and grace is something
(44:17):
that I feel has evaporated andwe need to get to that place.
So, yeah, that's how I feelabout things.
Is that that's how I feel aboutthings?
(44:48):
Is that I think we need to findthat we need to return to a
place of grace and allow thatfor everybody and figure out.
Speaker 1 (44:51):
Okay, let's pull ourselves up and let's see what
works best for people.
Yeah, for people, um, yeah,yeah, I, I mean even in, you
know, when you're talking aboutthe storytelling.
Grace for yourself in that yourfirst draft is going to be crap
.
Grace in yourself that yourstory matters.
Grace in others and that theirstory matters.
Right, like to say that I cancontrol who can share and who
cannot, because of my belief inwhatever.
(45:15):
It is Right To me is absurd.
Right, like.
Every story matters when welive as a community, when we
live as a social species.
Yeah, other people's storymatters, yeah.
Speaker 2 (45:30):
Yeah, there is no default in humanity, period,
there is no default in humanity.
It just we are.
The beauty of people all onthis planet is just a gorgeous
(45:51):
thing, and there are so manydifferent perspectives and
elements and things that maybewe just didn't consider.
Yeah, we're that grace isevaporating to say, oh, I didn't
think of that.
I just want to be right.
Everybody wants to be right andguess what?
(46:15):
None of us are going to beright soon enough.
So, you know, we all want to be.
You know, and we've all met thatperson right, the person that
always wants to win, like nomatter what they could even
think, like, nah, this, I couldbe a little bit wrong, but I
don't care, because I'm going towin.
We have lost that empatheticelement of grace and I would
(46:37):
love to see that more.
And I'll be the first one toraise my hand and say sometimes
I have not had grace for peopleand I've.
I've had to kind of go sit in acorner and think about what
I've done and reflect on.
You know, how do I become abetter person?
(46:57):
Um, and I'm not talking abouttoxic positivity, right?
I'm not talking about like ohwe have to be happy.
Damn it.
No, sometimes you can be reallypissed off.
Yes, and we still have to beactive listeners.
Yeah, and we still have to havethose moments of grace for
(47:19):
people.
All that goes out the window.
We've lost our humanity.
We're gonna lose ourselves init.
Speaker 1 (47:38):
I mean, it's so true.
It's so true.
And to even put yourself in theperspective that you have to be
perfect all the time and knowall the things, that's
impossible, it's exhausting.
Speaker 2 (47:46):
It's exhausting.
It's exhausting.
You look at the people who arethe people pleasers, the parent
pleasers, the perfectionists,dear, the overachievers.
You got to be exhausted, kids.
And then there are people thatare, you know, they feel
entitled, they feel, you know,this is the way it always was.
(48:07):
That's got to be exhaustingbecause the world's changing.
And again, that place of gracewhere you acknowledge, yes, the
world's changing and things aregoing to go bump in the night
and we just have to allow forthat grace, and not just for
other people but for ourselves,yep.
Speaker 1 (48:28):
Absolutely.
Yeah, oh, I love iteryl.
All right, my dear friend, wehave one last question.
Go for it.
What is one gift that youalready have to get us there?
Speaker 2 (48:47):
um, I will say, of the four questions you gave me,
this was the toughest one.
Good, and she's like I don'tknow.
I don't know what that gift isand I'm hoping that you know for
me.
I think sometimes it's mywhacked out sense of humor.
Speaker 1 (49:08):
That's a good one.
Speaker 2 (49:09):
Yeah, I mean, that's a gift for sure.
And then just that, you knowthese, I don't know, I didn't
know what I was going to say,but let's just, let's just leave
it at sense of humor, I think,because that that is the part
where um we, we can recognizethat there's um humanity in that
(49:36):
um yeah yeah, um, I'm gonnaoffer to ask you to take some
grace for yourself while I umfill your cup a little bit, okay
.
Go ahead, let me go get my cup.
Hold on Go for it.
Speaker 1 (50:00):
I so, cheryl I mean, if you've listened to our other
podcast, you'll know this.
(50:21):
Cheryl and I have known eachother for over a decade at this
point and, uh, has been with methrough some of the most and I'm
getting emotional for anyonethat can't see that, and I'm
okay with it has been with mefor some of the most difficult
moments of my entire life.
You consistently show up, youvalidate the humanity in me.
(50:46):
You have shown me what deep,true friendship can look like
over space, over time, and yourfierceness in being there for
(51:07):
those that you love and careabout is beyond anything that
I've ever seen or known, and Iam so grateful for that and that
your relationship, myrelationship with you, has given
me so much hope to continuestanding up after everything,
(51:28):
after every piece that's fallenout from underneath me.
You have been someone that hasallowed me to stand back up, and
I can only imagine what thatwould do if someone had a friend
like you for their lives, tocontinue standing back up, to
(51:48):
continue finding their voice, tocontinue sharing their stories
with the world.
You have been instrumental inwho I have learned to become,
because I know that you arethere by my side.
So you are a part of makingthis world.
The vision that you've beentalking about, because of
(52:09):
everything I know about you,have felt about you, have seen
and am so grateful to continueto have to this day- I
appreciate what you've said andthank you so much and that was
really, I think, incredibly kindand generous.
Speaker 2 (52:50):
I don't know if I I appreciate all the words that
you've said and you are strongerthan you think you are, and I
would also say that I wish Icould be that way for everybody
Understood, and I've falteredseveral times.
Speaker 1 (52:57):
Oh, we all make mistakes in it Sure, sure.
Speaker 2 (53:05):
But any hoodle.
I appreciate what you've saidand again, I think we all have,
or I would like to think, or Ihope.
My hope is that people have thestrongest of friendships and
powerful, long-lastingrelationships with their
grownups.
(53:25):
We know this isn't always thecase, right, but as long as you
and, to quote Grey's Anatomy, aslong as you have your person,
hold on to that person tightbecause it's really important.
Yeah, but, thank you, that wasvery kind of happened over the
(53:51):
past few years.
Eileen, my friends Julie andTammy, my friends Belinda and
Courtney have been the and thereare others have been the models
for, for the sister gratitude,and that's very cool.
(54:14):
I love that.
They're like, I love thatgratitude is kind of amalgam of
the people that have really hadsuch a positive impact on my
life.
Grief is just a hot mess, likegirlfriend is just, she just
shows up, she's.
You know, I'm here, I'm here, Ibrought Doritos, what do you
want?
So, and oh, oh, you're in themiddle of a meeting.
(54:35):
I'm sorry, like here's a tissue.
Um, yeah, I guess that one,that one gift that we all have,
is finding really thatconnection for me.
I do it it through humorbecause otherwise I would just
be, you know, a puddle of tearsall the damn time.
So fair enough.
Speaker 1 (54:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (54:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (54:56):
No, I get it.
Oh, cheryl, I just we don't getto see each other that often
and I'm just so grateful to onebe able to be in this space with
you now again.
And I just want to thank youfor showing up today for me in
(55:22):
this sort of new thing and we'regoing to post this also on you
Only Go Once, I think.
So sharing in that world aswell, um, but you know, I want
to one give you the opportunitywe're going to share where
people can find you for yourbooks and all of that, and um,
(55:47):
yeah, I don't.
If you have any last, justwords or anything you want to
share with folks before we closeout, I want to give space for
that, and if not, that's alsookay too.
Speaker 2 (56:11):
I love the name of your podcast and that it's from
hope to here or from here tohope right, we all have to have
a starting point and whereverhere is is okay, Hope for better
for yourselves and share yourdamn stories, because we need to
(56:32):
hear them.
That's what I got, kid.
I love it.
I love it.
Thanks, I was honored to beyour guest on this and I can't
wait to hear the other storiesthat come from this, and thank
you for being at the helm ofsomething really important to
help us to continue to tell ourstories important to help us to
continue to tell our stories.
Speaker 1 (56:54):
Most grateful, my friend, thank you, thank you,
thank you.
So again.
Thank you, cheryl, I appreciatethat also, and we will close
out this first episode, fullepisode of From here to Hope in
the messiness, the magic and themeaning of what it is to be
(57:21):
fully human.
See you next time.
Welcome listeners.
This is the From here to Hopepodcast and I am your host,
eileen Walsh.
So this podcast is a space forhonest conversations about where
we are, what we're holding andwhat we dare to dream is still
possible.
It's not about fixing orforcing, but slowing down long
(00:22):
enough to hear the truth ofwhere we are right now, because
hope isn't a destination, it's adirection.
And wherever you are right nowand my dear guest with me today
I'm going to invite you to takea breath so we can really step
into this conversation together.
So, in your nose, out yourmouth Welcome Today.
(00:54):
I am so honored to welcome myincredible friend and co-host of
our podcast.
You Only Go Once Cheryl Cantafio.
Cheryl is an IT professional byday and a poetry and children's
book writer.
All other hours from Norristown, pennsylvania, when she's not
writing, she spends time withfamily, friends and her two pups
(01:15):
, reads gothic, horror andthriller novels or binge watches
movies and television serieswith her husband.
Her book, my stay with thesisters poems, was her debut as
an author and poet in may 2023.
In 2024, she wrote and releaseda place no flowers grow, a
gothic poetic tale, and she willsonnet, a folklore chat book.
(01:39):
And barry and the big jump,which I love dearly so much, her
debut children's book about ajumping spider with big dreams.
I have to say sorry, I knowthis is not part of your bio.
However, all of these bookshave been such a beautiful
journey for me.
To watch you grow on and beable to read each one of them,
(02:02):
to feel different parts of youwas so magical and special and
such a privilege for me, andit's been incredible to see you
in this becoming of this writerand author.
So I just want to share thatand that you are such an
incredible human in my life andI'm so, so grateful to have you
(02:23):
here today.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
Welcome Well here today.
Welcome Well, shucks.
Okay, hello everyone.
Hi, my dear friend Eileen, howare you?
That was a lovely introductionand also it really touches me
that you found some connectionin the books, because that's
(02:45):
really what it's about instorytelling.
So I'm really really excitedand happy to be here and see you
continue your journey as astoryteller as well.
This is really really cool andexciting.
So I am happy to be here andhappy to be your first guest and
, yes, it's all all wonderfuland fantastic.
(03:07):
So it is.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
And so this is the first real episode.
I have an introduction episodefor myself before, but the idea
for this podcast is to really gothrough four questions.
So Cheryl and I are going tonavigate through the four
questions I'll be asking everysingle guest and, yeah, it's a
(03:32):
way to explore where each personis that one.
I just find people amazing andinteresting.
I also understand that beingable to create a future is going
to take every single one of usand our vision for what that is,
instead of sitting in the muckof all of it.
(03:53):
Yes, how do we start creatingthat stuff together?
How do we start envisioningwhat that looks like?
And I want to hear from peopleon how they think we can do that
, because that, to me, is thefirst real step in being able to
move into that space.
So so we'll navigate into that.
And the first question that I'mgoing to ask, cheryl, but first
(04:17):
I'm going to ask you, audience,to also consider this, to also
consider this, and I'll ask youto consider it every single
episode, because it's going tochange.
I guarantee it's going tochange for you every single time
you consider it.
But what does it feel like to beyou right now?
(04:38):
Right, just take a minute, letit sit right.
Just take a minute, let it sit.
Maybe it's feelings in yourbody, maybe it's some emotions
you have coming up from the daybecause Lordy knows, those can
come up but whatever that is,wherever you are, just what does
it feel like to really be youin this moment in time, in this
(05:03):
moment in space, where you arein your life, where you are in
your career, where you are inthe world?
Right, that's huge right now.
And what does that feel likefor you?
And I would love to be able tohear your stories, as well as
(05:25):
these amazing people that I'mbringing on as guests as well.
So reach out and share whatyour thoughts are for today.
So now I'm going to dive inwith Cheryl, my friend.
Yes, what does it feel like tobe you right now?
Speaker 2 (05:42):
well, I gave this a lot of thought and look I a.
I'm a woman in my 50sStatistically speaking, I've got
more years behind me than aheadof me and really I'm a
menopausal woman who's watchingthe world burn and bloom.
That's, you know, just watchingit from a, you know, from a
personal perspective.
(06:02):
You know, my mom died frompancreatic cancer after she
survived a pandemic.
It was also 51 days before my50th birthday.
You know, her death reallyaltered me and it continues to
alter me, and there are momentsin life that define people, and
losing her ignited my nextchapter.
(06:24):
So, and I will say, like,whether the main character
energy I'm bringing now isbetter or worse remains to be
seen, right, so stay tuned.
You know, and for me, you hadmentioned it before right, I
dove, really I dove into writingto help me grapple with feeling
consumed by loss, and some daysit works and other days I want
(06:48):
to go full hermit.
So I'd like to share this quotefrom Susan David, who's a
psychologist, she's an emotionsresearcher and she's the author
of the book Emotional Agility.
So she recently posted on hersocial media the following about
grief Grief is the experienceof being changed by loss, it
(07:08):
says to us.
This was a before this happenedand an after this happened.
I will move forward, but I willnever be the same.
So writing about our difficultemotions, including grief, can
help us move forward in healthyways.
When we put our difficultexperiences into language,
(07:30):
research shows that it has anorganizing effect.
It allows us to see not onlythe difficult parts of the
experience but what we mighthave learned or gained, and it
helps us process it.
Grief changes us.
(07:50):
It rewrites us and we in turn,rewrite our lives with it.
And I thought that was sopoignant and so on point, and I
think for me, writing felt likethe way to go for that
expression.
And you know, we're also herefrom a world perspective.
(08:11):
We're living in a time when theland of the free and the home
of the brave is blatantly,recklessly erasing women's
accomplishments, contributionsand access.
Yeah, um, so we're living in atime where people ban books.
I don't get.
(08:32):
I still don't get.
To this day, books open worldsto readers.
I mean, you know how the helldoes anyone feel justified in
culling imagination or historyor education?
I still don't get it.
So we're in this really weird.
Personally, for me, I'm in aworld of loss.
I know that others are like, andagain, Susan David's called it
(08:55):
right.
This is what happened beforetime I think everybody's talking
about, like what happenedpre-pandemic versus
post-pandemic in their worlds.
And we're all still in thiscycle of complex grief, but,
that said, there's also momentsof blooming.
I don't know how I would havegotten through it without
(09:16):
friends like you, family, thewriting communities that I'm
part of now, and also connectingwith people who read the books
and said, yeah, I get it, like Ican see that, so, um, you know.
So what does it feel like to beme right now?
It feels really freaking messy.
(09:38):
Um and that's kind of where I am.
Um, you know, life is, life isgreat, and then sometimes life
is not great and you just kindof move on and you figure out
what's the best thing you can do.
And for me, again, it waswriting, joining writing groups,
listening to other people'sstories, making those
connections.
(09:59):
You know, bless us becausewe're all humans, and yes, we
are in.
You know, bless us becausewe're all humans and, yes, we
are in.
You know, we're fallible,infallible.
Which one is the word?
Speaker 1 (10:10):
I'm a math major.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
I don't know I right, okay, so we'll go look that up.
Um, I think it's.
We're fallible, right, we'rejust.
You know, we make mistakes,hence this whole part of the
interview where I can't rememberif it's infallible or fallible.
But you know, it's just a messytime, yeah, and I'm really
feeling the messy portion of it,and I'm also grateful that I
(10:34):
have friends that have alsoembraced the messy and are
trying to find the way through.
So that's where I am.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
Oh, totally, there are a couple.
I mean, all of that wasbeautiful.
I, as soon as you said burn andbloom, like that just touched
me really deeply, like I justhad this picture of each one of
(11:03):
our hearts and and like italmost being this like fertile
ground, right, sorry, I go tothe plant stuff.
I love plants, I love gardening, all of the stuff, right, but
you know, just like in inforests and things like that,
you have these moments ofwildfires that clear things out
(11:25):
to make way for new growth,right, and I just imagine these
little pieces of our hearts thatbecome burned and then new.
These new blooms come fromthose, and how much we have.
We hide some of that because ofthe, the pain of the things
(11:46):
that come through, because ofthe struggle of just allowing
for the, the new blooms, tostart growing, right, like those
are so hard and we have topretend like we're in full bloom
all the time and we're not.
It's impossible, right, it'simpossible to do and, yeah, I
(12:12):
just that's just really that theimagery of it was so profound
for me and, um, it's soimportant to know that anyone
can be in the middle of both atthe same time, for sure, right,
yeah, yeah, yeah, whether it'sin, you know you could have.
(12:34):
Your personal life maybe is inburn right now and your
professional life is happeningin bloom yeah for sure, whatever
that looks like.
But yeah, I just one thank youfor bringing that.
(12:59):
Yeah, for sure it.
But you know you brought upwhen your mom passed.
Um, you know these, thesereally big moments in our lives,
right there's, there'scertainly like micro moments of
I got, maybe I passed up on apromotion or you know, like
something didn't quite go right,but there's also these really
large parts that are defining.
(13:23):
Like that.
To me, that defines, right, whoI become now and who I this,
who I am now after this moment,and do you think that you have
any definition or thoughtsaround the who I am now or after
?
That happened with your mompassing?
Speaker 2 (13:48):
I had to figure out who I was as an adult and it's
really weird to say that becauseclearly I'm in my fifties I am
an adult.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
There's rumors.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
There's rumors.
So, but it's just you know itwas just the timing of
everything, right, like we wereall celebrating, you know, we
were finally able to get tostart to see one another.
The pandemic piece had kind ofdied down, and then her
pancreatic cancer diagnosis justfelt like a gut punch.
(14:22):
And then I look at it, too,right, like I see, you know, all
of our family members aredealing with it in different
ways and I know for me, like Ididn't have kids, so I'm child
free, and sometimes it feelslike I'm childless and I there
(14:44):
are times where I really wish wecould have given her
grandchildren, or could havegiven my dad grandchildren, but
that just wasn't in the cardsand you know what.
That's okay, yeah, um, she doeshave a lovely grandchild and,
uh, that's a.
That was a good thing and shegot to experience that.
But then there's all this otherpiece about your evolution as a
(15:07):
woman.
So I went from you know you gofrom you know a repeat cycle
every month to like it's allgone and with that comes all the
weird stuff, right, the hotflashes, the cold flashes, the
brain fog.
The brain fog has beenastronomical and there's a part
(15:32):
of me or actually there's a bigpart of me that wishes I could
talk to her about that and saywhat did you go through?
Now she had kind of prepped meand said you better be prepared
for the hot flashes, becauseit's no joke and she was not
kidding, um, but it's all thestuff afterwards, right, it's
all the stuff that it's startingto get documented now in terms
(15:55):
of, like, what happens to womenduring menopause.
Um, just the, the emotionalpieces, like physiologically,
yes, like we know what happens,but then it's like all the
emotional pieces that you'relike, oh, I didn't see that cry.
Oh, so we're going to cry atthe drop of a hat.
That's cool, it's all of thatand it's just, you know it's
(16:17):
missing.
That part of it that kind ofcould say like mom, did you go
through this?
Or how did that feel, mom, didyou go through this?
Or how did that feel?
That said, there's a part of methat's also glad she's not
seeing the train wreck that Ican be sometimes.
So there's also that piece ofit.
(16:38):
So, like I said, it's messy.
It's very much a feeling ofmessy.
Um, you know, there's things Iwish you were around for that
that don't have anything to dowith me but just have to do with
our family.
So there's definitely thatgrief, is definitely messy.
It's just a messy, messy thing,and I don't think it's a unique
(17:05):
experience to lose your motheror your or sorry, I was
sympathetic and I just didn'treally understand the enormity
(17:31):
of it until it happened to me.
So it's just a different vibe.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
Yeah, as someone who has not yet lost a parent, you
know, um, I just gosh, I was, Iwas going to say something, but
just to be in the messiness withyou, but, um, I was like, oh, I
(18:10):
hope I was there.
I don't need you to, I don'tneed a validation that I was
there for you, but like I feel Ifeel what, what you felt in
that right Of the like I, I hearwhat you're saying.
I can't totally relate to itand I'm, I want to be there for
my, my friend, and I don't evenknow what it feels like to know
how to show up for this personand yeah, I just it's.
It's so.
There's these phases in lifewhere it's like you don't know
(18:30):
until you know, and then you'repart of this club of things you
kind of wish you weren't a partof.
Sometimes.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
And again, I know I'm I'mmaking this very personal with
the loss of my mom, but therehas been since I would probably
say late 2019, early 2020, thisoverall overarching grief that I
(18:58):
think we as a collective haveexperienced, have experienced
and I do think it's wonderful,from the perspective of the
Bloom perspective, to see thepeople who were able to come out
of it from the other sideflourish and you know, I've
talked to so many people wherethey're like, yep, I'm living
(19:20):
life, like I will, you know, I'mgoing to do all the things, I'm
going to eat all the things.
I mean, you remember, we, youknow we all were like, well,
we're in this pandemic, I'mmaking sourdough bread.
I mean we yeah, yeah, I'm eating.
I'm eating the carbs, kids, um,and you know, from that we
learned.
(19:40):
I would like to say we learnedempathy.
I would really like to say welearned empathy.
I would like to say we learnedabout personal space.
I would like to say we learnedabout humanity, and I think to a
(20:01):
certain extent we have.
And then there's this other part, right, where we just see that
I just think we need a littlemore grace in the world.
I'm probably skipping ahead onyour questions, but yeah, yeah,
it would be lovely to see someof that grace and I have.
(20:23):
I am really grateful to myfriends who have exhibited grace
, because I was a hot mess and Istill have my moments where I
kind of just spiral and squirreland everybody's like come on
back, kid, come on back, it'sfine, you'll be fine, come on
(20:47):
back, it's fine, you'll be fine,and I'm grateful for that.
So if there's anything I canrecommend to people, count your
blessings, count yourfriendships, count your family,
because it is.
We don't get out of thiswithout having those communities
and connections, without havingthose communities and
connections.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
Definitely.
It's also interesting too inthat you know, you say that or
what you were kind of talkingabout was like you're even still
going off and having thesethings.
These are normal feelings tohave, right.
Yes, to have loss isheartbreaking.
(21:28):
To have grief is soul-wrenching, like to then have to.
To me, it's unnatural topretend like they didn't happen
and I'm just supposed to be insome natural not even natural
but like I'm supposed to justget back and do my shit, right.
(21:50):
Yep, that, to me, is theunnatural part.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
And it's really funny because we've been operating so
long in this ability tocompartmentalize and again, and
especially particularly like youlook at just the way that we
work it's somebody passed away.
We're sorry for your loss.
Here's anywhere between threeand seven days.
(22:17):
We're good, right?
Okay, welcome back, let's moveforward.
And I get it.
I think there's a fine linebetween moving on and moving
forward, and I don't know if wealways get it right.
And again it goes back to we'rehuman, we're still trying to
(22:43):
figure this whole thing out, andalso that people process grief
in so many different ways in somany different ways.
There are people that love thecompartmentalization right.
They're like okay.
Sure, yeah, yeah.
And it's to them.
It's like okay, I, I need thisto survive, so I am going to do
(23:05):
this, I'm going to grieve andthen I'm going to move forward,
and that's great for them.
There are other people who needa little bit more, and I think
we need that grace, like we.
We need to provide the graceand we need to give the grace to
ourselves.
(23:25):
So there's all part of that too.
Like I said, super messy, supermessy that's the beauty I mean
to me.
Speaker 1 (23:33):
That is, I always really love like impressionist
art and stuff because I like themessy, like I am drawn to the
messy.
That's like a whole otherconversation, but it just makes
it so beautiful also at the sametime, and I can't imagine it
(23:58):
any different.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
It's so funny because I appreciate that you like the
messy, I do not like the messy.
Messy breaks me like messy.
I'm like, and you know, if yousaw my house you'd be like, are
you sure?
Speaker 1 (24:11):
about that.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
Are you sure?
But you know, even prepping forthis, like I like to be
organized, I like to like, okay,this is happening, this is
happening, this is happening.
Um years ago, when I used to dodinners, I would have pages of
this is going to happen at thistime, this time, this time, and
the internal meltdown that Iwould feel if that went off the
(24:35):
rails.
Um, it was not pretty, uh.
But again, I think there's apart of that too where, again,
if you look at my house, it'smessy as hell.
Not even going to lie about it,I live with somebody who has
everything, has its place andthere's a place for everything,
(24:56):
and I just kind of go, that's aconstruct and I'm just going to
leave my shoes here and that'sokay.
So, again, just messy.
But there have been some thingsthat I've had to, for my own
sake, have had tocompartmentalize and organize,
and I think that's how I gotinto writing.
Is writing felt both freeingand also organized in that?
(25:22):
Okay, you know, when I startedlooking poetry which if you had
told me, if you had told myyounger self, guess what, you're
going to write a poetry bookand you're going to publish it,
I would have been like okay,yeah, but that for me, poems
have so many differentconstructs and so many different
flavors, and I picked ones thatappealed to me, read them, saw
(25:47):
the formats that they were, andI thought, okay, well, I can
compartmentalize my own thoughtsand feelings into these
different formats, and that wasa beautiful thing.
And that's the part where itdidn't feel like it was burning
anymore.
It felt like okay, like there'sa there's, because it brought
(26:11):
in the introduction of not justgrief, but it brought in
gratitude.
So the title of that book myStay with the Sisters the
sisters are grief and gratitudeand they're basically reimagined
as sisters and I really I foundsolace in them in particular,
(26:34):
just because it felt like it wasokay to rage and then it was
okay to just reminisce, it wasokay to feel like you just
wanted to be in bed all day andthen it felt okay being out,
spending time with people toconnect.
So there were all thesedifferent things that were
(26:55):
coming about from that um, andthen the punch came where I had
been vulnerable and I shared afew poems with people just
because I was like this is, youknow, this is kind of how this
was working and and also, to becandid, I had signed up for a
(27:16):
writing competition that I foundout wasn't really on the up and
up.
So here I was with 15 poems,going like, okay, I've got 15
poems, and in a moment ofvulnerability I gave them to
friends and my best friend,julie, came back and said I
think this will help people.
Then I set a goal and I went upwriting like 110 poems and I
(28:10):
think that's what you see and Iwas genuinely excited.
This was like her first bigthing.
I was like cool, this was a funexercise and I appreciate it.
And then, you know, friendskicked me in the butt and said
what are you waiting for?
Like get it done.
And I got it done and I threwit out there and I held my
breath and what I found waspeople were saying, yeah, I get
(28:33):
this.
Yeah, this is my favorite partof the book because of X, y and
Z.
And I was really stunned and Ithink there is magic in
storytelling.
I think there's magic in umsharing stories, even when it
feels scary to do it, andthere's magic in having the
(28:58):
conversations as a result ofthose, uh, of those shared
stories yeah, oh, absolutely, um, so it's where I'm gonna go
kind of into question twobecause of this.
Speaker 1 (29:11):
So, um, I've just seen so, in this evolution for
you, like there has been so muchthat has come from this writing
journey that has shared a partof your soul that I don't know
if you were anticipating orknowing, right that to to share
(29:38):
with other people and that wastouching.
I just I find this about art sobeautifully that it's like,
whether it's writing, whetherit's a painting, whether it's
music, like we are sharing apiece of our soul in the art
that we create and express intothe world, and getting chills
(30:03):
right now, but just like seeingthose things come from you,
hearing and reading those thingsthat have come from you have
just been such a beautifuladdition into this world.
Right, that didn't exist and wedon't have to go down the AI
path, but like your experienceof all of that could only ever
have been written by you,because it was what you felt and
saw and understood and found somuch validity and authenticity
(30:28):
and being able to bring in that.
That is why I feel like so manyother people connect and see
that, that light and thathumanity and that connection,
and I just we need so much moreof that in this world and to
(30:49):
support that and what that canlook like right Like is is this
whole idea of what is.
What is your vision Like?
I'm seeing you on this amazingcreator journey for you, when
you think of a future visionthat is a better space place,
the way we have relationships,the way we talk to each other,
(31:09):
whatever that is.
What does that look like fromwhat you've done and seen and
become and are becoming?
What does that look like?
What do you think that lookslike?
What does that look like?
What do?
Speaker 2 (31:21):
you think that looks like I mean I don't know.
My vision for a better futureis really simple.
I want people to share theirstories so that others can learn
, obtain perspective, embracejoy, have their eyes open, feel
a connection to others, and Iwant those storytellers to
continue world building Like Ijust think all of that is really
(31:41):
important, because you neverknow Again and I said this right
, like that's my vision is tocontinue to tell our stories,
because along with grief comes alittle bit of loneliness, and
we're seeing a lot of that now.
We're seeing people sayingthey're either feeling alone or
(32:04):
they're lonely, and what I'veseen from the book community is
that people are diving intothings like fantasy, romance,
like oh my goodness, the romanceBooks have just blown up.
People are opening upbookstores that are specifically
for romance stories.
Speaker 1 (32:27):
How cool is that right?
Speaker 2 (32:29):
Because we want that connection and we want that man.
I would love to see thiscontinue.
Let's give.
I mean, how beautiful is itthat, in a time where you still
have individuals who want to banbooks, you have this whole
other community that says holdmy beer, and here's another
(32:50):
great story, and people areconnecting and they're going
like, we love this, like this isthe thing that gives me joy.
Books also lead to movies andtelevision.
Books also lead to discussionsand communities.
I just love it.
I love this.
(33:11):
This is the part of my nextchapter that I'm really excited
about because I think workingwith and especially in the local
author communities that I'm in,you get to see the spark of.
I just talked to somebody lastweek or the week before that was
(33:31):
talking about her research intoa historical fiction that she's
writing and I was captivatedbecause she went to different
local museums and this onecharacter just kept on coming
out to her, who was a realperson that she's going to build
(33:51):
it based on it, and I thoughtisn't that cool, like isn't that
the neatest thing that theywent back into history and said
look at all these untold,important and people are going
to reflect on these now and inthe future and go, man, what a
(34:26):
ride, what an absolute ride.
Their worlds must have beenright.
I know people kind of poo-poosocial media, right, because
it's.
You know, I'd seen memes yearsago where it's like we've
invented this and then, you know, then it comes up with a social
media thing that says word.
(34:46):
We have a thing called, youknow, named after a bird, the
sound that the bird makes, andit's like, really Like we went
from this to this.
And no harm, no foul, because Ialso think there's value in
that too, in communicating andtelling stories.
But I just think there's so muchto learn from this time period.
(35:10):
Again, it has been an absolutewild ride.
We're going to see the kidsthat were graduating high school
and college and go, and they'rejust going to be like, yeah,
this, like our experience wasnot your experience.
Here's why and here's what welearned from it and here's how
we rose from it.
And I'm super proud of thisfuture generation, or this
(35:31):
upcoming junior I shouldn't sayfuture generation, but of this
upcoming of these upcominggenerations.
Like you've got, you know, theGen Z, the alpha.
Is it Beta now?
Are we up to Beta?
We're up to Beta, aren't we?
Speaker 1 (35:43):
I don't even know, maybe.
Speaker 2 (35:46):
Right, but they're learning so much and they're
looking back and going likey'all had it easy, like this is,
and I feel like everygeneration does that right, like
you don't even know you don'teven know like we had this.
I would say our generationwe've seen well, sorry, my
generation we've we've seen thetechnological advances in
(36:10):
science and technology andcommunication is just staggering
and at the pace that it's beenthrown at us.
There are some times whereyou're just like all right, like
can I just?
I'm just going to go and writein a journal at this point
because I'm tired of the screensand all that other stuff, right
, but that's the whole point,that's the whole beauty of this.
So my vision for a betterfuture is that we continue to
(36:34):
encourage people to tell theirstories and then encourage the
storytellers.
So, for example, you're astoryteller, you're helping
other people tell stories.
Let's continue to do that, andI just I don't know, I'm just
and again, for me, the future isas bright as the stories we
(36:56):
tell and the truth that weprovide and the perspectives
that we give, so that peoplefeel less alone in the universe
and they feel like, ok, well, Ihad this connection and I maybe
(37:16):
didn't have before, or I feelless lonely because this person
did have this perspective.
Again, you know, I could saythis a thousand times I'm not
the only one in the universe wholost my mom, right, but every
person's story is different.
Like everyone who loses aparent, they have a different
perspective.
And again, that's wherestorytelling comes in, right,
(37:41):
because I think people arealways like nervous about it,
right, they they talk about.
Well, I don't know if peoplewill care, and the thing is,
people do care because they wantto.
They want that connection.
So, yeah that's.
That's where.
That's where the secret sauceis is in the storytelling.
Speaker 1 (37:59):
Absolutely, and I mean, I couldn't agree more.
I'd also say, just to piggybackonto that point, that even if
your first step is to write itfor yourself's, okay at first,
(38:20):
right, yes, and and the sharingof that is a whole different way
to connect with other humans.
It's hard, it's look, it's hard.
You know you and I have talkedabout this before, the writing a
book versus becoming apublished author are two very
(38:41):
different things 100% and andalso everyone's first draft is
garbage Okay.
Speaker 2 (38:50):
You write it and you're like and and that's
that's the turning point is youlook at it and you're like well,
that's not seeing the light ofday.
Give yourself a breather andgive yourself some grace in that
and continue.
You know, again and I talkabout books there are people
that write songs.
There are people that you knowwrite movie scripts.
There are people that you knowthey write obituaries, they
(39:14):
write greeting cards.
All of that is part of who weare.
And, again, words giveconnection.
So, yeah, so I get it.
Yeah, eileen, you and I havetalked about that for sure,
where it's one thing to write abook and it's definitely another
thing to put it out there inthe universe.
(39:36):
And it is not for the faint ofheart, for sure.
Speaker 1 (39:41):
No, no, no, it's not.
But the other thing that I wantto add to that too is you kind
of you tapped into this right isthat you're not the only one
that's lost your mom?
Yeah Right, um, I also had thisconversation with my mom
recently, in frustration aboutbeing a parent.
(40:01):
Sometimes you're like I havetold you this so many times.
Speaker 2 (40:07):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (40:09):
Now, this person over here said it and somehow you
heard it right you know it, butsometimes it is the right person
at the right time with theright person, or not right.
It's not the right word, butthe the perspective you needed
to hear at that moment thatclicked for you.
(40:30):
And so just because someoneelse has written about stuff, or
someone else has paintedsomething about whatever, or
someone's written a song aboutthis, the way that you only you
specifically can bring that intothe world could be a life
changer for somebody else 100%.
Speaker 2 (40:51):
I mean, look, we've talked to a couple of authors,
right, like, look at LangRickers, right, she talked about
sibling loss and her book wasstunning and it was such a
beautiful gift to the universeand she still shares that.
We've talked to Jenny Lisk, wholost her husband at an early
age and what she's done with herstory is phenomenal.
(41:16):
I'm going to point out twoother people.
Yeah, both women.
One is Jessica Jocelyn, andshe's a poet of her mother and
um several other differentlosses in a way that is just
heart-wrenching and glorious allat the same time.
(41:38):
And then one of my, one of myfavorite poets is nishi patel,
and nishi and I met through um,a poetry group, and um, she
wrote, she wrote a book aboutthe loss of her father and then
the after she wrote a like,almost like a sequel to that in
(41:59):
poetry format.
Both are poetry books aboutwhat it's been like seven years
later and the impact of that isso significant.
Yeah, um, I also have anotherfriend who's written about the
loss of her grandmother and whatthat meant, and her name is
cassandra vilchis.
And um, you know, just powerfulworld words and powerful
(42:20):
stories.
They all didn't pass away thesame way, um, but the
connections to the story and tothe loss um is very palpable and
I am so proud of all of themfor putting their stories out
there, because again you havepeople that are come, you know,
(42:41):
coming out of the boardwalksaying, yeah, I felt that way
too.
Yeah, I completely understandthat.
Speaker 1 (42:46):
So yeah, anyway.
Anyway vision for the futureI'm telling your stories yeah,
yep, and so I think you'vetouched on this, but I'm gonna
just reiterate, just to makesure folks know what is the one
thing of the many um that weneed to give people grace.
Speaker 2 (43:22):
I think we need to allow grace for ourselves.
We need to be better activelisteners.
Right now, we're in a time andagain.
I know that there are going tobe listeners, probably from
international.
I would say that we are in.
Everybody just wants to stickit to one another, and what you
(43:55):
have are people that just wantto live.
Yeah, they just want to be, youknow.
They want to work, they want tobe contributing members to
society.
Yeah, um, they want to be ableto afford things for their kids.
They want to be able to justexist, and grace is something
(44:17):
that I feel has evaporated andwe need to get to that place.
So, yeah, that's how I feelabout things.
Is that that's how I feel aboutthings?
(44:48):
Is that I think we need to findthat we need to return to a
place of grace and allow thatfor everybody and figure out.
Speaker 1 (44:51):
Okay, let's pull ourselves up and let's see what
works best for people.
Yeah, for people, um, yeah,yeah, I, I mean even in, you
know, when you're talking aboutthe storytelling.
Grace for yourself in that yourfirst draft is going to be crap
.
Grace in yourself that yourstory matters.
Grace in others and that theirstory matters.
Right, like to say that I cancontrol who can share and who
cannot, because of my belief inwhatever.
(45:15):
It is Right To me is absurd.
Right, like.
Every story matters when welive as a community, when we
live as a social species.
Yeah, other people's storymatters, yeah.
Speaker 2 (45:30):
Yeah, there is no default in humanity, period,
there is no default in humanity.
It just we are.
The beauty of people all onthis planet is just a gorgeous
(45:51):
thing, and there are so manydifferent perspectives and
elements and things that maybewe just didn't consider.
Yeah, we're that grace isevaporating to say, oh, I didn't
think of that.
I just want to be right.
Everybody wants to be right andguess what?
(46:15):
None of us are going to beright soon enough.
So, you know, we all want to be.
You know, and we've all met thatperson right, the person that
always wants to win, like nomatter what they could even
think, like, nah, this, I couldbe a little bit wrong, but I
don't care, because I'm going towin.
We have lost that empatheticelement of grace and I would
(46:37):
love to see that more.
And I'll be the first one toraise my hand and say sometimes
I have not had grace for peopleand I've.
I've had to kind of go sit in acorner and think about what
I've done and reflect on.
You know, how do I become abetter person?
(46:57):
Um, and I'm not talking abouttoxic positivity, right?
I'm not talking about like ohwe have to be happy.
Damn it.
No, sometimes you can be reallypissed off.
Yes, and we still have to beactive listeners.
Yeah, and we still have to havethose moments of grace for
(47:19):
people.
All that goes out the window.
We've lost our humanity.
We're gonna lose ourselves init.
Speaker 1 (47:38):
I mean, it's so true.
It's so true.
And to even put yourself in theperspective that you have to be
perfect all the time and knowall the things, that's
impossible, it's exhausting.
Speaker 2 (47:46):
It's exhausting.
It's exhausting.
You look at the people who arethe people pleasers, the parent
pleasers, the perfectionists,dear, the overachievers.
You got to be exhausted, kids.
And then there are people thatare, you know, they feel
entitled, they feel, you know,this is the way it always was.
(48:07):
That's got to be exhaustingbecause the world's changing.
And again, that place of gracewhere you acknowledge, yes, the
world's changing and things aregoing to go bump in the night
and we just have to allow forthat grace, and not just for
other people but for ourselves,yep.
Speaker 1 (48:28):
Absolutely.
Yeah, oh, I love iteryl.
All right, my dear friend, wehave one last question.
Go for it.
What is one gift that youalready have to get us there?
Speaker 2 (48:47):
um, I will say, of the four questions you gave me,
this was the toughest one.
Good, and she's like I don'tknow.
I don't know what that gift isand I'm hoping that you know for
me.
I think sometimes it's mywhacked out sense of humor.
Speaker 1 (49:08):
That's a good one.
Speaker 2 (49:09):
Yeah, I mean, that's a gift for sure.
And then just that, you knowthese, I don't know, I didn't
know what I was going to say,but let's just, let's just leave
it at sense of humor, I think,because that that is the part
where um we, we can recognizethat there's um humanity in that
(49:36):
um yeah yeah, um, I'm gonnaoffer to ask you to take some
grace for yourself while I umfill your cup a little bit, okay
.
Go ahead, let me go get my cup.
Hold on Go for it.
Speaker 1 (50:00):
I so, cheryl I mean, if you've listened to our other
podcast, you'll know this.
(50:21):
Cheryl and I have known eachother for over a decade at this
point and, uh, has been with methrough some of the most and I'm
getting emotional for anyonethat can't see that, and I'm
okay with it has been with mefor some of the most difficult
moments of my entire life.
You consistently show up, youvalidate the humanity in me.
(50:46):
You have shown me what deep,true friendship can look like
over space, over time, and yourfierceness in being there for
(51:07):
those that you love and careabout is beyond anything that
I've ever seen or known, and Iam so grateful for that and that
your relationship, myrelationship with you, has given
me so much hope to continuestanding up after everything,
(51:28):
after every piece that's fallenout from underneath me.
You have been someone that hasallowed me to stand back up, and
I can only imagine what thatwould do if someone had a friend
like you for their lives, tocontinue standing back up, to
(51:48):
continue finding their voice, tocontinue sharing their stories
with the world.
You have been instrumental inwho I have learned to become,
because I know that you arethere by my side.
So you are a part of makingthis world.
The vision that you've beentalking about, because of
(52:09):
everything I know about you,have felt about you, have seen
and am so grateful to continueto have to this day- I
appreciate what you've said andthank you so much and that was
really, I think, incredibly kindand generous.
Speaker 2 (52:50):
I don't know if I I appreciate all the words that
you've said and you are strongerthan you think you are, and I
would also say that I wish Icould be that way for everybody
Understood, and I've falteredseveral times.
Speaker 1 (52:57):
Oh, we all make mistakes in it Sure, sure.
Speaker 2 (53:05):
But any hoodle.
I appreciate what you've saidand again, I think we all have,
or I would like to think, or Ihope.
My hope is that people have thestrongest of friendships and
powerful, long-lastingrelationships with their
grownups.
(53:25):
We know this isn't always thecase, right, but as long as you
and, to quote Grey's Anatomy, aslong as you have your person,
hold on to that person tightbecause it's really important.
Yeah, but, thank you, that wasvery kind of happened over the
(53:51):
past few years.
Eileen, my friends Julie andTammy, my friends Belinda and
Courtney have been the and thereare others have been the models
for, for the sister gratitude,and that's very cool.
(54:14):
I love that.
They're like, I love thatgratitude is kind of amalgam of
the people that have really hadsuch a positive impact on my
life.
Grief is just a hot mess, likegirlfriend is just, she just
shows up, she's.
You know, I'm here, I'm here, Ibrought Doritos, what do you
want?
So, and oh, oh, you're in themiddle of a meeting.
(54:35):
I'm sorry, like here's a tissue.
Um, yeah, I guess that one,that one gift that we all have,
is finding really thatconnection for me.
I do it it through humorbecause otherwise I would just
be, you know, a puddle of tearsall the damn time.
So fair enough.
Speaker 1 (54:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (54:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (54:56):
No, I get it.
Oh, cheryl, I just we don't getto see each other that often
and I'm just so grateful to onebe able to be in this space with
you now again.
And I just want to thank youfor showing up today for me in
(55:22):
this sort of new thing and we'regoing to post this also on you
Only Go Once, I think.
So sharing in that world aswell, um, but you know, I want
to one give you the opportunitywe're going to share where
people can find you for yourbooks and all of that, and um,
(55:47):
yeah, I don't.
If you have any last, justwords or anything you want to
share with folks before we closeout, I want to give space for
that, and if not, that's alsookay too.
Speaker 2 (56:11):
I love the name of your podcast and that it's from
hope to here or from here tohope right, we all have to have
a starting point and whereverhere is is okay, Hope for better
for yourselves and share yourdamn stories, because we need to
(56:32):
hear them.
That's what I got, kid.
I love it.
I love it.
Thanks, I was honored to beyour guest on this and I can't
wait to hear the other storiesthat come from this, and thank
you for being at the helm ofsomething really important to
help us to continue to tell ourstories important to help us to
continue to tell our stories.
Speaker 1 (56:54):
Most grateful, my friend, thank you, thank you,
thank you.
So again.
Thank you, cheryl, I appreciatethat also, and we will close
out this first episode, fullepisode of From here to Hope in
the messiness, the magic and themeaning of what it is to be
(57:21):
fully human.
See you next time.
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