"Collateral Blessings": Turning Challenges into Miracles ft. Marco David

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker (00:00):
So in between my first and second cancer diagnosis, God

(00:06):
led a man to call me who wasdiagnosed with cancer.
His 14-year-old daughter wascoming to our church and when he
gets terminal cancer and heannounces it to his family,
obviously his family was verydevastated, but his 14-year-old
daughter who was saved now, theway that she responded, touched
dad's heart and that kind of ledhim to call me.

(00:30):
He learned that I had cancer atone time and he had religion,
but he didn't have this, thisrelationship, this faith, this
hope like his daughter.
And he wanted that.
Two hours later, he's in myoffice and I lead him to Christ
and God just poured a, a graceupon him, and although he had

(00:50):
this terminal cancer, once hegot saved, he had such joy.
When he got baptized, he said,I'm in a win-win situation.
Because I believe God can healme, and if he does, I'm gonna
keep serving him and spreadingthe gospel and serving my
family.
But if he doesn't, I'm gonna bewith him.

Speaker 2 (01:09):
Mm.

Speaker (01:09):
It's one thing to say that when everything's going
good in your life, but to haveterminal cancer and to have that
kinda hope, that real hope, thatreal presence of God in your
life, like he had it, itinspired a lot of people and,
and he began to win people toChrist and his circle of
influence.
And a couple weeks before he, hewent to be with the Lord.

(01:31):
He was in hospice at, at home,and I was at, I was at his
bedside and he was very, veryweak.
His voice was very hoarse and hetells me, Marco, pastor, I, I
know I look bad from theoutside, but I want you to know
that on the inside it's wellwith my soul.
And you know, when I wrote thebook, I share in the book that I

(01:53):
believe that's a greater miraclethan my physical healing.
The hope that he had theassurance.
That he had at that moment, thefact that he knew he was saved,
that the presence of God waswith him, and gave him hope and
joy and confidence in, in thatstate that he was in.
In fact, salvation is thegreatest miracle, right?

(02:15):
That's the greatest miracle.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (02:33):
From the city of Chicago, a city most recently
known for its crime and violencefrom this podcast.
We will be sharing stories ofredemption from individuals
raised in the tough streets ofChicago and from around the
country.
Some of them were gang members,drug dealers, incarcerated
victims, and perpetrators ofviolence.

(02:54):
Listen to my guest as they sharetheir experiences, struggles,
trauma, but also the strength,hope, faith, and perseverance
these have developed in them tokeep pushing and moving forward
in life.
Tune in to hear how their liveshave gone, from darkness to
light, and from wrong to strong.

(03:17):
Hello everyone and welcome toanother episode of From Wrong to
Strong.
I'm your host.
My name's Omar Alveo.
Uh, and tonight you guys are infor a treat.
I got Pastor Marco David with metonight.
I got a short bio that I'm gonnaread.
Um, pastor Marco is, uh, thelead pastor at, uh, Midwest
Bible Church in Chicago.
He is the author of the bookCollateral Blessings Before

(03:41):
Stepping into Full-TimeMinistry.
He served for 20 years in theChicago Police Department, uh,
bringing a unique perspective onredemption and real life faith.
He's also a two-time cancersurvivor whose testimony reminds
us that God can turn trials intowhat he calls collateral
blessings.
He's been married to his highschool sweetheart, Elizabeth.

(04:03):
They have four sons serving inlaw enforcement.
And a Pastor Marco's story isone of faith and resilience.
So man, I'm excited to have himhere.
Of what?
Of.
Welcome to, to the podcastpastor.

Speaker (04:14):
Thank you for having me, Omar.
Appreciate it.

Speaker 3 (04:16):
Oh, no.
For, for, for, for sure.
Uh, uh, uh, uh, pastor Marco,David, uh, uh, I guess we're
connected.
I gotta, I gotta say this.
Uh, I, I think I, I mentionedthat earlier when you got here,
is, uh, a, a, a Pastor MannyMill, uh, house, uh, national
Ministries.
Uh, they basically, it's aprison ministry, uh, there
throughout the state of IllinoisCook County, and they also
serve, uh, in different states.

(04:37):
I know they go like to AngolaPrison in Louisiana.
Uh, Parchman, I believe they'rein, uh, Mississippi.
Uh, so it's an awesome ministrythat meets in Whedon.
Uh, but that, that's, that,that's, uh, how we connected
there.
And, uh, I also had a chance tointerview Albert Burials who,
uh, is part of your story, and Iknow you're part of his right.
And we'll get into that later.
But, uh, man, I, I'm, I'mexcited to, to have you here.

(04:58):
Yeah,

Speaker (04:58):
I'm excited to be here.
And, uh, I have that similarconnection to Manny too.
He is been a, a, a collateralblessing in, in my life and the
way God connected us.
At a very critical time in mylife, which led to a lot of
other, uh, a lot of othersurprises, uh, unexpected
blessings.

Speaker 3 (05:17):
Amen.
Amen.
So, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll,we'll get into that.
Yeah.
Get there.
But, but, but you know what,let, let, let, let's, let's go
to the beginning.
You, you know, I, I was, if Iwas even iffy about sharing your
bio.
Because I don't want to give itall, all at once, you know?
'cause you got awesome testimonylike, man, if I share this,
they're gonna, they're gonnaknow what it's about, but at
least, hey, at least they knowwhat it's gonna is gonna lead
to.
But, uh, let's go back to thebeginning.

(05:38):
Uh, uh, how was life for you,like growing up?
Uh, where did you grow up at andcould you describe those first
early years of your life?

Speaker (05:45):
Sure, sure.
Uh, I grew up on the nearNorthwest side by division in
Damon.
Uh, it's kind of on theborderline of, uh, Wicker Park.
Ukrainian Village, HumboldtPark, kind of in that area.
And so I, I grew up there.
I was born, uh, uh, by adivision in Damon and I grew up
in a Puerto Rican family, twoparent home.

(06:06):
And, uh, but kind ofdysfunctional.
'cause my father, although hewas a great provider, he had a,
a crazy temper.
He was an angry man and he, he,he would lose control a lot.
And, uh, was very abusive to, tomy mom and, and to, to, to my
siblings and myself.
And so it was kind of volatilegrowing up.

(06:28):
Mm.
In that home.
Although he was a greatprovider.
Yeah.
But he didn't really know how tohave a relationship with his
children and express love.
I do believe my dad loved us.
He just really didn't know howto express, he wasn't a
believer.
He couldn't control his anger.
And that led to a lot ofdestructive, uh, destructive
stuff.
Yeah.
Uh, and so, um, I came to knowthe Lord.

(06:49):
Uh, when I was 17 years old.

Speaker 3 (06:50):
Mm.

Speaker (06:51):
Um,

Speaker 3 (06:51):
how, how, how, how, how, how, you know, before you
get there.
Yes, sir.
Uh, uh, what role did faith, uh,play in your family, your
immediate family?
Like growing up, like before,before 17 years old?

Speaker (07:00):
Yeah, great question.
So, my, my, uh, parents wereprofessing Catholics, although
they weren't really devout.
Uh, you know, I think we went tochurch on Easter Sunday, you
know, sometimes.
Uh, and, uh, so my parentsbelieved in God, but.
You know, they really didn'tknow, know the Lord, and, and,

(07:21):
and God didn't have atransformative, uh, you know,
effect in our, in our lives orin their lives.
Yeah.
Uh, I believe my parents prayed,you know, when, when they were
in trouble.
Yeah.
But they, that they, they didn'treally have a relationship with
God and Yeah, they, um, and, uh,you know, because my, my home
was, was, was dysfunctional and,you know, I, uh, I didn't wanna

(07:44):
be home, you know, and, um.
I never got into gangs oranything like that, even though
they were always nearby.
Um, but a, but I did get intothe drug scene.

Speaker 3 (07:54):
Oh,

Speaker (07:55):
okay.
And, and, um, I never got intoit too heavy, but I was on that
road.
I was on that road and um, and Ihad a brother who I looked up
to, his name is Eric David, andhe was.
Um, had a lot of aspirations andhe was, uh, a very studious guy

(08:15):
and, and did well in high schooland, and in college.
And, but he was also kind ofdabbling with, with drugs too,
during the same time.
And then he experienced a, aseries of, of major setbacks,
uh, things that could havereally launched his career.
And he, and he fell into a, adeep depression and, and just

(08:36):
began to try to figure out, youknow, what's life all is, is all
about.
Kind of started, started him ona journey, but he really didn't
know what he was exactly lookingfor.
Okay.
Other than meaning and purpose.
And, and around that time, he's25 and I'm 17 at this time.
Okay.
And, uh, a God brought a maninto his life.
Um, uh, who knew oursister-in-law, pastor.

(08:59):
Okay.
And we, we, he met him at apicnic.
At a picnic and, and that mantook interest in my brother, his
name is Joseph Pagan, tookinterest in my brother and saw
that my brother had questions,but he was still kind of a
skeptic.
Yeah, he was still a, a skepticand, uh, but that man continued
to pursue my brother andcontinued to pursue him.

(09:21):
And, uh, one day I was, uh, Islipped over my brother's house.
We woke up in the morning.
We were kind of hanging out and,uh, I forget exactly what time
it was, maybe around noon or so.
It was a knock on the door.
And, and it was that preacherJoseph Pagan.
And, uh, coming after my brotherwanted to share the gospel with
him, talk, talk to him about theLord.

(09:41):
And, and, uh, I don't think mybrother was expecting him, but
he let him in.
Yeah.
He came in and, and I was notpursuing God.
I, I, again, I, I was kind of onthe wrong road.
I did have, um, uh, a girlfriendat the time, her name, her name
is Elizabeth, who's my wiferight now.
Mm-hmm.
And, and I kind of was madly inlove with her, my high school

(10:02):
sweetheart, which is still,still Lauren.
Yeah, I was, I am Save youthere.
Save you.
Yeah.
Make sure you edit that out.
And, uh, yeah, I was crazy aboutit, which kind of slowed me down
in a way.
Got, I kinda used that because Iwas hanging out.
With the wrong crowd.
Yeah.
And, and the drug scene and allthat.
And, and then meeting her, youknow, it was all about her from

(10:23):
that point on.
Although we did get into a seforelationship too, you know.
Yeah.
Uh, you know, we weren't marriedor anything and, and we were
getting really involved in manydifferent ways.
Uh, uh, and so, you know, shewas my girlfriend at the time,
uh, when.
Pastor came to see, see mybrother.
And I was not pursuing the Lord,but, but God was pursuing me.

(10:43):
Amen.
And um, so as he shared thegospel with my brother, I was
listening and, uh, my brotherreceived Christ as his savior.
And they weren't realizing whatwas going on in my own heart.
Uh, I was all ears, God, youknow, the, the spirit and, and,
and the gospel captivated me,drew me in, and I was, I was.

(11:06):
I was paying attention and, andmy brother didn't realize that
needed the pastor.
And, and, uh, and I also came toknow Christ as my savior along
with my brother.
And that was in 1987, April of1987.
And our lives have never beenthe same

Speaker 3 (11:21):
man.
Well, what, what would you say,uh, you felt like at that time,
or, or, or what started tochange, like eventually?

Speaker (11:27):
Right, right.
So one of the things that the,that the pastor shared was that.
Uh, we can have a, a realrelationship with God that, that
Jesus, uh, came into this world2000 years ago to live the life
that we couldn't live, uh, andto die.
The death that we deserve to diein the cross.
So that we can be saved.

(11:48):
And an important part of, of, ofthat gospel presentation is that
the salvation that Jesus came tobring is not just saving us from
something, but saving us tosomething.
And that is a relationship withGod, uh, through Christ and the
forgiveness that he provides onthe cross because he paid the
penalty for our sin.
Uh, we are reconciled to God.

(12:08):
Sin separates us from God.
Uh, the blood of Jesus, uh,makes it possible for us to be
reconciled to, to have peacewith God, to have a real
relationship with God.
And I stress that a lot, thatsalvation is more than just a, a
ticket to heaven or, or getoutta hell.
Free card, uh, salvation is, uh,the God of heaven, uh, comes to,

(12:30):
to live with you.
And your body and the, and theperson, the power, the Holy
Spirit.
Amen.
And the spirit of Christ.
And that changes everything.

Speaker 3 (12:38):
Yes, it does.
Yes, it does.
So, so you experience that andhow, how does life look like,
like moving forward?

Speaker (12:44):
Yeah.
And so, man, right away, youknow, the Bible says second
Corinthians, uh, five 17, anyman be in crises, a new
creation.
And, and, and again, salvationis not just, uh, you know, a
ticket to heaven.
It's a, it's a transformationfrom the inside out.
God began to, to transform mefrom, from the inside out.

(13:04):
And, and I, I, early on Ideveloped, uh, a real hunger to
know the Lord, uh, hunger forthe word.
And, and, uh, you know, theBible says that man shall not
live right, right alone, but byevery word that proceeds from
the mouth of God.
And I had a longing for the wordof God and just loved being in

(13:25):
church, loved being under thepreaching and, and teaching of
the word of God.
Just couldn't get enough.
And, and, and then alsodeveloped, um, you know, along
the way, just developed, uh, um,just a desire to, to know God
for myself, to have a, apersonal intimate that we talked
about earlier, intimaterelationship with the Lord.

(13:45):
Um, and then, you know, wetalked about this earlier, the
more, the more you know Christand, and the joy of salvation,
you can't keep that to yourself.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (13:57):
Gotta gotta share it with her.
Yeah.
I know we were talking about,uh, like, uh, I know I shared
like speech impediment or beingshy, introvert, but when you,
when God starts working in you,like, man, that.
That's right, in a sense, goesout the window.
Man, I, I gotta tell That'sright.
I, I, I, I, you know what comesto my mind?
I know there was a story in, inthe Bible where I, I believe

(14:18):
Jesus healed somebody and thenhe tell, I forget where it's at.
Exactly.
And he tells him, make sure youdon't go tell nobody.
And what does he do?
He just went and started tellingeverybody like, that's right.
That's right.
How, how, how, how can we hold,hold back, like what he's done,
man, I'll let the world go.

Speaker (14:33):
That's right.
That's right.
And I, I have a similar story,Omar, in that I.
You know, I wasn't an aneloquent person.
I started to, and, uh, in fact,you know, people close to me
used to make fun of me.
Yeah.
Uh, because I kinda mumbledsometimes, and I probably still
do from time to time.
But, uh, and I was kinda shy andintrovert.

(14:55):
Um, and, and in some ways I, Istill am.
But, but man, when, when Godgives me the opportunity to
share, I, I, I, I, I have toshare, I have to share.
Uh, not only because people needto know Christ, but how can we
keep the, the hope of Christand, and what he's done for us?
Yeah.
How can we keep that toourselves?
And, and people need to know.

(15:16):
Yeah.
And, and, and so God early onbegan to give me that, that, um,
you know, that desire to, toshare the hope of Christ with,
with others.
It started in my circle ofinfluence, right?
Mm-hmm.
With my, with my family, andthen friends and then coworkers.
And, and you know, people,people say, I don't really see

(15:37):
it, but people say, I have thegift of evangelism.
I, I, I don't know if I have thegift of evangelism.
I just, I'm just excited aboutChrist and yeah.
And uh, and I can't help buttell people, yeah, that's
evangelism what it does for me.
I, you know, God can do it foryou.
Yeah.
God can redeem you.
God can turn your life around.
And then, and we'll talk moreabout this later, by his grace,

(15:58):
I don't deserve this, but I, Ifeel like I has.
Just giving me like a front rowseat and opportunities to be
used of him to impact people'slives that others would've given
up on.
And, and, and I had a chance andopportunity to see God transform
people's lives, includingpeople's lives, including mine.

Speaker 2 (16:17):
Yeah.

Speaker (16:17):
And that just gave me even more, uh, confidence.
Amen.
To, to share.
Okay, so the gift of evangelism,man, you just wanna share,
share, uh, Jesus with others.
And you, you impacted, uh, uh,you said those close to you.
You, you mentioned even acoworker.
So, so at this point, uh, what,what are you doing for work at,
at, at this time?
Right.

Speaker 2 (16:36):
So, um, you know, when I, um, when I first got
saved, I mentioned earlier thatI was, you know, I was involved
in a relationship withElizabeth, my high school
sweetheart, my high schoolsweetheart, who's my wife now
for 37 years.
And, um, and so thankfully twoweeks later, uh, she came to

(16:56):
know Christ too and we gotmarried short shortly, shortly
after that.
And, um, and we're, you know,we're not supposed to be married
37 years later.
We were way too young.
Uh.
She was pregnant, which is oneof the, one of the reasons why
we had the, the blessing of ourparents to, to get married.

(17:17):
'cause they wouldn't have beenfor us getting married that
young.
Yeah.
And, and again, we're, we'resupposed to be a statistic, but
God redeemed our lives and, andhe became the center of of our
relationship and God, us goingin the same direction.
Amen.
And, and 37 years, uh, laterwe're still married.
We love each other more now thanever.
I'm making up for what I saidearlier.

(17:39):
No, but that's the truth, man.
Yes, same.
We're we're we, we love eachother more now than ever before.
And so, man, I had to grow upquick because we got married
young and so I, I startedworking in a factory for a
little bit and, uh, but in highschool I had a, I had, I had a.
I had, um, a desire, an interestto, to, to go into law

(18:01):
enforcement and, and when I was19 years old, God opened up that
door.

Speaker (18:06):
Yeah.
What, what, what give you thatdesire.
Anybody around you?
Yeah.
You a class.
A

Speaker 2 (18:09):
class.
Uh, it was a career, uh, classthat was called a career, career
development class in.
Criminal justice and lawenforcement kind of gave you a
little taste of what that fieldand, and, and those, you know,
related fields were like, and,and we went on trips, you know,

(18:29):
to courthouses visited the FBIvisited different law
enforcement agencies and, andthat's kind of what gave me a,
an interest right in, in it.
And, and, and, um, and when Iwas 19 years old.
I got, opened the door for me tobecome a correction officer and

(18:51):
I was pretty young.
Right.
To be a correction officer.
And that, that was that at whereat, you know what?
I ended up becoming a correctionofficer and working at Joliet
Correctional Center.
It's closed now.
Uh, but it was an old prison.

Speaker (19:04):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (19:04):
And not too far from Statesville.
And, and, and so I, I landed ajob there.
Which was, uh, a blessing.
'cause not only did I want to goin law enforcement, even though
that was a hard job, that was areal difficult

Speaker (19:16):
Did you you wanna share maybe a Yeah.
A little story or something ofthe hard Yeah.
Mean what, what, what made thatjob hard?

Speaker 2 (19:23):
Yeah.
Well, I was young for one, and,you know, the, uh, the inmates,
they're gonna test you, youknow, and,

Speaker (19:30):
and this is a maximum security.
This is a maximum.
It was security.
They

Speaker 2 (19:33):
had the East house and the west house.
And the East House was like aprocessing place.
The receiving, right.
The receiving.
I, I, I, I was there.
You were there?
Yeah.
In 97

Speaker (19:41):
I was there.
It had to be in 97.
Yeah.
February 97.
So yeah,

Speaker 2 (19:46):
I was there in 97.
Oh, no way.
Get outta here.
I was

Speaker (19:50):
so Wait, wait.

Speaker 2 (19:51):
I'm sorry.
I take that back.
I wasn't, no.
I, I wasn't, um, so I started in89 and I left there in 94.
So actually, yeah.

Speaker (19:59):
Yeah.
You missed, wasn't there?
Yeah.
Yeah.
I, I was there.
I think they kept me, that man,man, I don't forget.
Maybe less than a month.
Did you just sit there untilthey find out where they're
gonna send you?

Speaker 2 (20:08):
Right.
That was the East house.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And then the, the west house wasgeneral population and it was an
old prison.
And, but it, it was, you know,it was, it was a dangerous place
to work, man.
And, but by the grace of God, Iwas already safe.
I remember, man, uh, that made abig difference because, you
know, it gave me, you know, itgave me a security knowing the

(20:30):
guy was with me and the guy waswatching out for me.
And, and I, I believe God gaveme favor.
God gave me favor.
I, I, I treated the inmates withrespect and fairness and, and
consistency.
And, and they also knew I was aChristian and, and that kind of,
they kinda respected that.
Mm.
And uh, I used to do thingslike, uh, uh, when it was chow

(20:52):
time, you know, in that oldprison there was this crank box
where you cranked it and all thecells opened up and everybody
went to chow.
And then while everybody was inchow and I was waiting for them
to come back, which was chaos,when they're coming back, trying
to get them to go back in theircells, you know, a lot of crazy
stuff happens.
I would go into the to thisbathroom and get on my knees and
pray for God's help.

(21:13):
God's favor.
And man, I experienced Godhelping me a lot.
Wow.
Days.
And also op also opportunitiesto share the gospel with some of
the inmates and fellow officerstoo,

Speaker (21:24):
man.
Amen.
So, uh, okay.
So you said all the way to, uh,94?
Yeah.
So

Speaker 2 (21:27):
I landed that job in 89, and then in 94 got opened up
a door for me to become aChicago police officer.
Yeah.
Which is kinda what I reallywanted to

Speaker (21:37):
do.
Okay.
But a a, a lot of times in thatfield, you, you almost gotta
start somewhere else, like to gointo that.
Right.
It

Speaker 2 (21:43):
helps, it helps, you know, it helps.

Speaker (21:45):
I know some people do like, um, um, military and then
they Right.
Try to get into that can help.

Speaker 2 (21:50):
That can help too.

Speaker (21:51):
Right.

Speaker 2 (21:52):
That can help too.
And,

Speaker (21:53):
and, um, so let me ask you, so, so, so you become a
cop.
Um, I know it's probably gonnacome up later when you, when we
talk about what you eventuallybecame, but as a Christian, as a
cop, how, how, how is that inChicago?

Speaker 2 (22:06):
You know, I get asked that question a lot and I think
it's a great question.
In fact, um.
Sometimes the reason people askme about that because they think
it's some kind of like, somekind of contradiction.
Like, you know, how can you be apolice officer and a Christian
at the same time?
But I think being a Christianmade me a better police officer

(22:27):
and, and, and so, and actually,and being a police officer, I, I
think helped me to have a, a, acertain perspective.
You know, as, as a, as aminister too.
Uh, so I kind of, they, theyboth kind of work together in a
u unique way to help me to be,you know, uh, I think more

(22:50):
useful in the ministry.
In in, in what sense?

Speaker (22:53):
Like in what are, like in what are problem Yeah.
Practical ways, I guess, like,right.

Speaker 2 (22:59):
Yeah.
So, so for a while I was abi-vocational pastor, and, and.
So I was still, you know,working the beat, working on,
on, on, uh, working the streets.
And that gave me a, a front row,you know, front row seat and
into all the crazy stuff thatwas happening out there.
Man, this is a needy world.

(23:22):
This world needs redemption.
People need hope.
And so I, you know, as a policeofficer, you know, you get to
see that firsthand.
You, you get a front row seat toevil, to the need to the.
To the hopelessness it,depending on where you work.
Yeah.
Too, you know, because someneighborhoods and districts are,
are, are more challenging thanothers.

(23:43):
And, and I, I worked in theHomer Park area so.
I got a taste of.
Yeah.
You know, and also I, I, Istarted in, in, uh, I hit the
street in 95 and there was a lotof crazy stuff going on in the
home park area in 95 that, thatI was, I think there was almost
a thousand murders that year.

Speaker (23:59):
I was in my prime in 95.
Yeah.
'cause I ended up getting lockedup in 97, so that was when we
were like wild.
Right in the middle, midnineties.
Yes.

Speaker 2 (24:08):
Right.
And so, you know, when you, whenyou become a full-time pastor,
let's say you could end up in aChristian bubble.
Kind of detached a little bit.
'cause everybody around you is aChristian.
You're, you're, and, and you canmaybe lose touch and sometimes
you have to be intentional forthat, for that not to happen.

(24:28):
And, and you know, um, I heardsomebody say recently, the
reason that I Christians todaydon't reach a lot of people for
Christ is because they don'thave a relationship with
non-Christians.
We can end up in, in right in aChristian bubble.
And we gotta find ways to, to,to have relationships where
people don't know that don't,that don't know Christ.

Speaker (24:49):
Amen.

Speaker 2 (24:50):
You know, whether they're at the gym or at work,
or you know, your neighbors.
We have to be intentional Yeah.
To, to build bridges to peoplewho are, who are, who are not
saved.
So, man, being a police officerput me right in the thick of it.
You know, officers that, by theway, being a police officer is
hard.
It's hard.
The culture is very difficult.

(25:10):
And, you know, seeing what theysee day in, in day, day in and
day out and dealing with, with,with all the stuff a police
officer has, has to deal with itcan, it can affect you and, and,
um, you know, in a negative way.
So that, you know, being, being,being in, in, in the, in the
center of that gave meopportunities to administer.
Police officers.

(25:30):
Yeah.
You know, I, I, I let a policeofficer once to Christ ride in
the squad car.
Wow.
Yeah.
At once, you know who was goingthrough something Yeah.
In his life.
And, um, yeah.
And, uh, you know, God gave meopportunities, you know, to,
first of all, we have, you know,I had a job to do.
Yeah.
Right.
And, and by the way, the Bible,um, you know, the Bible teaches

(25:52):
that God ordained governmentand, and God.
Is, is all for a society, havingsome kind of criminal justice
system so that we can have acivilized society.
Yeah.
We have to have that.
Romans 12 talks about how Godordained government and, and,
and, and authority to, to, to,uh, restrain evil.

(26:13):
Yeah.
And so that, and

Speaker (26:14):
for, and for us also to submit to that authority.

Speaker 2 (26:17):
Right?
Right.
And so that, you know, that thatis a god ordained thing for the
good of society, even thoughthere is no perfect government.
But, um, you know, or perfect,you know, yeah.
Law enforcement system, right.
Uh, but it, but God ordained it.
And, and, and, and it supports,you know, God's justice and res
restraining evil.

(26:37):
So I had a job to do and I hadto do my job and, and, uh, but I
also, you know, did it withintegrity and with, with, with
my eyes open to opportunitiesto, to share the gospel when God
gave me that opportunity.
And, and I remember a time, forexample.
Where I, I was, I was, uh,working inside for a little

(26:59):
while in community policing andI had this role where, where I
was kind of playing, uh, um, uh,I was kinda like a liaison
between the police department,the.
And parents who had juvenilesor, or children who got
arrested.
And so typically what wouldhappen is, uh, a youth detective

(27:19):
would deal with that, and if itwasn't serious, mom and dad
would be called or in, and, and,you know, usually the kid would
get signed out, maybe have acourt date or something like
that.
And so when that was happening,I was, I would come in and, and
talk to, to, to the parent.
If there was a parent or thecare caretaker and, and
interview the, the kid and, andtry to offer them some kind of

(27:41):
resources.
So I was, you know, I did somenetworking in the community and
the, you know, the communitywhere I worked and try to, you
know, help give these kids, youknow, some alternative.
Yeah.
And, um, so one particular, uh,scenario, a kid.
Who was 14 years old, gotarrested for drugs and uh, and

(28:02):
mom, mom and dad had immigratedfrom, from, uh, from Mexico.
And, and, uh, dad had a greatjob in Mexico, but he had some
setbacks and he ended up cominghere first, and then he was able
to bring his family and, andthey, they were not like, uh,
streetwise there.

(28:22):
This is a really good family.
And they moved into a ganginfested neighborhood.
When their son was 11 years old.

Speaker (28:29):
Mm.

Speaker 2 (28:30):
That's very challenging, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
So by the time he was 14, thiskid was, you know, dealing drugs
for the gang on the corner andmom and dad had no clue what
exactly what was going on.
And so, so when he got arrested,mom was like panicking and I got
to talk to her and I kind ofinformed her what was actually
happening.
And man, she asked me for morehelp.

(28:52):
I ended up telling I'm a pastor,you know, I, I could visit you
and talk to you a little bitmore.
Can I come visit you on aSaturday with my pastor?
And, but I was a, I was, uh, notthe full, the senior pastor at
the time.
Yeah.
And so, uh, this is kind of anexample what Yeah.
Did when I was the policeofficer.
Oh yeah, that's good.
And, and, uh, and I did, Ivisited her and her family with

(29:12):
my pastor, and we ended upleading that whole family to
Christ, including that14-year-old.
A young teenager who was gonnabe eaten up live.
Yeah.
And he was getting eaten up liveand, and you know, you can't
just walk away from a gang.
And so we actually were able to,um, um, speak to a family that

(29:33):
lived in, in a Christian familythat lived in Indiana.
And that kid went to live withthat family in Indiana for a
little while.
Man, look

Speaker (29:41):
at that.

Speaker 2 (29:42):
You know what happened?
Yeah.
Uh, you mentioned that you sawme doing an interview on Yeah.
On that cable network.
Yeah, yeah.
Uh, everlasting Love.
Yes.
Uh, after a while I lost touchwith him.
He saw me on that program a fewyears ago and reconnected with
me.

Speaker (29:57):
No way.
Yeah.
That's interesting.
Look at that.
That's gonna play.
He was still

Speaker 2 (30:01):
in Indiana and he ended up reconnecting and, and
getting back in church'cause hekind of fell away from church
even though he is workingfull-time job and trying to
support his family.
But, uh, he ended up coming backto the Lord years later.
Look at that.
Yeah.

Speaker (30:14):
From, from you sharing your, your story, your
testimony, and then reconnectingwith somebody that, that you
impacted, which is gonna tie youin later on to when you talk
about your book about, I don'twant to get there, but, we'll,
we, we'll get there eventually.
Alright, so you're doing bothpolice officer pastoring, you
mentioned at this point you'rejust an, an associate pastor,
right?
So can you take us what, what,what, what, what's next in life

(30:35):
during the season?
Like,

Speaker 2 (30:36):
yeah.
Yeah.
So, uh, just one more thing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That.
You know, I mentioned being aChristian, how that helped me, I
think, be a police, betterpolice officer, and, uh, and
then being a police officerhelped me to be, you know, a, a
better minister because it keptme connected and, and gave me a
front row seat to what wasreally going on.

(30:57):
But as a Christian though, youknow, my heart didn't become
callous.
It stay tender, right.
Uh, you know, when, when, whenyou're a police officer dealing
with difficult things, man, howdo you, how do you do your job
and deal, deal with the emotionsof it all?
Uh, and Chris Fabry, uh, heasked me, you know, can you tell
me of a time when something yousaw as police officer really

(31:19):
impacted you?
And I mentioned that, uh, whatwas still with me is arriving,
uh, to a scene of a drive-byshooting with three teenagers
were shot, and, and I got outtathe car there.
All three of'em were shot.
I think two of them were, werewere teenage girls and 1, 1, 1
young man.
And they were dying right therein front of me.

(31:40):
That was, you know, very, veryimpactful.
And, and you know, how do you,how do you, how do you do your
job as a police officer and dealwith, deal with that, deal with
all that emotion.
And so well, police officers tryto do is kind of shut that down
a little bit, shut that down sothat they can do their job.
But then can you turn it backon?

(32:01):
Can you turn it back on?
So it's a real challenge.

Speaker (32:04):
Yeah,

Speaker 2 (32:04):
it's a real challenge.
So again, being a policeofficer, I'm sorry, being a
police officer and a Christianallowed my heart to, to stay
tender and, and, and, and not beshut down permanently,
emotionally, or, or partiallybecause I

Speaker (32:19):
know you coming callous, right?
You, me, you mentioned at thatpoint you had to go in the squad
car, I believe, remember?

Speaker 2 (32:24):
Yeah.
I had to.
I remember having to go to thesquad car man.
Take some deep breaths.

Speaker (32:29):
Yeah.
You, you, you know what I, I, Italked to, uh, um, there was
another, uh, former, a policeofficer here and he mentioned,
he said a statement that reallylike, I guess put things into
perspective for me.
He said as a police officer, hesaid, uh, how do you say?
He said, your worst day, likewhen you're going through your
worst day, that you gotta pickup that phone and call the

(32:50):
police because somethingterrible is happening.
He said, that's our every day.
And that really like.
It's true.
Like, you know, where people,what a perspective.
That was

Speaker 2 (32:59):
really a interesting way of putting that because wow,
it's, it's, it's like a rollercoaster ride because you could
be patrolling the neighborhood,everything could be quiet.
You could see kids, you know,playing.
Then all of a sudden you get adrive by shooting somebody's
shot or somebody's gettingrobbed or somebody's

(33:21):
burglarizing.
Everything changes.
Yeah.
On like, on the drop of adiamond and you.
I mean, you go from high to low,high to low.
It's, it's really something.
And, and again, being aChristian, having a relationship
with God and having a churchfamily and, and, and having that
support, you know, kept my,again, kept my heart tender.

(33:45):
Here's another thing about itthat the Bible talks about
putting on the armor of Godbecause we wrestle not against
flesh and blood.
So think about a police officerbeing on the front lines of
evil, but not having on theirphysical bulletproof vest,
right?
Yeah.
The Kevlar, but not the armor ofGod to protect your heart.

(34:07):
You know, it could, you know,it's not easy, man, and, um, but
me, but being able to have thearmor of God when I was out
there doing my job, man, madeall the difference.

Speaker (34:20):
Yeah.
'cause unfortunately those thatdon't have, uh, coping
mechanisms like you, you go toGod to prayer.
That's right.
You have a community.
Uh, I know, I know.
Like to the ones I talked tobefore, some officers go to
alcohol to try to That's right.
Cope, cope, push down thoseemotions.
They don't want to think aboutwhat they just seen through the
day.
And it is nice.

(34:40):
It's not a good, a lot of

Speaker 2 (34:41):
officers develop great coping mechanisms.
Um, but I think.
Faith is the ultimate.
Yeah.
And it's more than a copingmechanism.
It's, it's, amen.
It's what we were made for tohave a relationship with

Speaker (34:52):
God.
Amen.

Speaker 2 (34:53):
In fact, the truth is that if you don't have a
relationship with God, if he'snot meeting the deepest needs of
your heart, doesn't matterreally what you're doing.
It's never gonna satisfy, right?
Yeah.

Speaker (35:02):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (35:02):
And you're never gonna ever have the true
contentment that we were made tohave in the Lord.

Speaker (35:07):
Amen.
Now, uh, I, I want to get to,'cause okay, you're a police
officer and eventually that,that changes because you get,
uh, I don't know how it came toyou, whether the church came to
you and ask you to do this, butyou, you wanna talk about that?

Speaker 2 (35:18):
Yeah.
So as I, as I was a policeofficer, at some point I was,
uh, helping the pastor a church.
Then by the providence of God, Iended up becoming the pastor of
this, this small church, uh, bivocationally.
And that wasn't easy'cause, youknow, trying to pastor a church
and work a full-time job.

(35:38):
I'm married, I have kids.
How many kids do you have?
This We have four sons.
Okay.
And, uh, believe it or not, allfour of them are Chi cow police
officers.
Yeah.
Uh, yeah.
I tell this story that, uh, noneof'em became pastors.
And I say that.
Not, not, not yet.
Yeah.
Not yet yet.
God.
God, they're writing theirstories.
Yeah, that's right.
Um, but, but, uh, man, they'rehardworking, hardworking young

(36:00):
men and, um, that do their,their job, uh, take their job
serious.
And, um.
And, uh, I, I, I say that, uh,maybe I told'em too many war
stories, not enough Biblestories, but anyhow,

Speaker (36:14):
yeah.

Speaker 2 (36:15):
And, uh, yeah, so, uh, you know, just trying to
raise a family and pastor churchwasn't easy and, and man, um, I
don't have time to tell thewhole story, but God, uh, opened
up some doors for this smallchurch that I was pastoring to
merge.
With a, with a, with anotherchurch, Midwest Bible Church,

(36:36):
uh, and mid Midwest.
Bible Church is an historicchurch in the city of Chicago.
In fact, just, uh, I justrecently we celebrated 90 years,
so that's how long the Yeah.
The church has been around.
And so my, the little churchthat I pastored merged with
Midwest Bible Church and Ibecame an associate, and that
happened in, in oh six.
Okay.
So I was 36 years old, had about11 years on the job, and, and

(37:00):
then, um.
In 2013, the, the pastor of thatchurch, uh, a good man, a good
pastor, re resigned.
In 2013, since I was theassociate, um, I, I became the
interim pastor, kind of by thedefault.
Yeah, yeah.
You know, you know, it's like,uh, all my life, God just, I

(37:21):
never really like, campaignedfor things.
God just put it in front of meand, and opened the door for it
and sometimes I, I surrender tothe call of God a little, little
with some, you know, with some,uh, knees knocking.
Yeah.
But knowing that.
That God was going help

Speaker (37:38):
me.
That, that, that's, that's thewalk of faith.
That's the walk of faith upthere with you.
That's the walk of faith.
That's like, um, the same thing,like, I don't, like, I don't
raise my hand for anything, butit seems like, like God calls
you for something.
You just gotta.
Say Yes.
Yes, Lord.

Speaker 2 (37:53):
Yeah.
That's right.
That's right.
That's right.
And, and you know the truth isthat God's strength has made
perfect in weakness.
Yes.
It's when we get overconfidentand prideful.
God resisted proud, but he gavegrace, grace to the humble.
And those are people God uses.

Speaker (38:08):
There there's a story, uh, Charles Spurgeon told, he
said about a young man that wentup to preach.
He said, this young man was man,studied the Bible, he was.
So he said that this young manwent up to the pulpit when it
was his time to preach.
He said he went up there withhis head high, just oozing with
confidence, got up there,started preaching and just
bombed, like went terrible from,he said on the way down from the

(38:31):
pulpit from the stage, he hadhis head low.
Walking with his head down andCharles Spurgeon said, if only
he had went up the way he camedown.

Speaker 2 (38:40):
How about that?
That's good.

Speaker (38:42):
That's good.
Like, go up there in areverence.
Amen.
Of God.

Speaker 2 (38:45):
Like, man, God, praise the Lord.

Speaker (38:46):
Yeah.
So that, that, that story alwaysstood out to me like, we may

Speaker 2 (38:49):
lose that.
Yeah.
The militant dependence upon theHoly Spirit

Speaker (38:52):
and the fear of the Lord.
Something you talked about alittle earlier, don't think we
talked about it during here,maybe beforehand, but have a
reverence and a fear.
Amen.
And a respect and honor of Godlike.
I go up there and God, like, youhave your way through me.
Not, not me.
Like, look what I could do.
Look what you could do throughme.

Speaker 2 (39:08):
That's right.
That's right.
And another story about spergen.
Yeah.
As, believe it or not, eventhough he was known as the, you
know, the Prince of Preachersand, and, and this great
preacher, uh, I read, I read a,uh, a testimony where every time
he would walk up to the pulpit,he would say to himself, I
believe in the Holy Spirit.
I believe in the Holy Spirit.
I believe in the Holy Spirit.

(39:29):
And that was way to remindhimself that he needed to depend
on the spirit.
Mm uh, to do what only God cando in the hearts of people as he
was preaching.

Speaker (39:38):
Amen.
Yeah.
That, that, that, that'spowerful.
Like Yeah.
'cause yeah, you're right.
That was his title, theprincipal preachers, he was
mighty and the pulpit, but what,what, what, what made him
mighty?
The, the mighty one in him.
Right?
That's right.
Amen.
That's right,

Speaker 2 (39:50):
that's right.
So, you know, we merged withMidwest Bible Church, the pastor
resigns.
I become the interim pastor andI'm still a police officer at
the time.
And, uh, I end, I ended up doingthat for two and a half years
now.
The church did.
Put together a search committeeto find another pastor, but
that, that never happened.

(40:11):
My name kept coming up and thenin 2015 they officially called
me or asked me and I prayed andsought the Lord again.
You know, with some nervousnessand some doubts and yeah, and,
and you know, second guessingmyself, I, I dunno if I can do
this, Laura, are you sure youwant me?

(40:32):
You know, that kind of stuff.
But God always.
You know, confirms and, andreminds me that, that you know
where he guides, he providesAmen.
You've heard it before.
God doesn't call the qualified.
He qualifies the called yes andGod reminded me of those things.
God reminded me that hisstrength is made perfect at
weakness.

(40:53):
That, uh, if I depended on him,that he would give me what I
needed.
And so, but I also knew that I,I, I couldn't keep doing both.
I couldn't keep being a policeofficer, so, and, and, and a
pastor at the same time.
There was just too much going onand I was already feeling kind
of burnt out by, by the way, andthere

Speaker (41:11):
was trying to manage both.
Yeah.
To both

Speaker 2 (41:13):
us.
I have family, you know, I havechildren.
And so, so, uh, on top ofaccepting the call, I also re
retired early from the policedepartment.
So at, at, at that point, by theprovidence of God, I had 20
years on the job.
I was planning to go another 10years retire with a full

(41:36):
pension.
The guy had got, had God hadother plans.

Speaker (41:39):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (41:40):
And, and uh, and even, you know, letting go of
the security of that was a bigdecision too.
And again, God, I'm with you.
Could, could I ask you what,

Speaker (41:49):
what, um, in, in practical terms, what, what kind
of financial, uh, thing wasthat, like a difference I guess?
Like if you would've stood therefor the full pension, like,

Speaker 2 (41:58):
right.
So just, I'm sure that was partof the consideration, right?
Just given an ideal.
Um, and that's a great questionbecause, um, something, some,
some, some amazing unexpectedthings happened, you know,
shortly after I retired.
But, um, but I'm 55 now, so thatI was 45, so that was 10 years

(42:22):
ago.
So if I would've stayed on untilnow, I would've retired with a
full pension and great benefitsenough to be able to live on it.
My wife and I live comfortablywithout having, without having
to work.

Speaker (42:36):
Right.
You know, so that's that.
Oh yeah.
So back then when you werewrestling, that feel that part
of the consideration?
I wanted that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Gotcha.

Speaker 2 (42:45):
You know, but ultimately, man, our security's
in the Lord.
Amen.
Right.
Our, our securities in the Lordand.
And, and, uh, he, he's a betterprovider than a pension and in
so many ways.
Yeah, in so many ways.
And, and, and just to get into akind of a, an example of that,
so I retired in 2015 and hit theground running.

(43:09):
You know, I'm the senior pastor.
I had, I had all this excitementand, and, and, uh.
Just, uh, a lot of hunger and,and vision to see God do great
things.
And six months later I getdiagnosed with, uh, colon
cancer.
Yeah.
Six months later.
And, but you know, be honestwith you, at that time I was so

(43:32):
kind of focused on pastoring thechurch.
Uh, the doctor told me it wasstage two and, uh, so that,
that,

Speaker (43:40):
that's early, right?
Yeah, that was kind of

Speaker 2 (43:42):
early and.
And I was like, okay, you knowwhat, what, what do I have to
do?
Because I got, I got work to dofrom the Lord.
You know, what, what, what's thesurgery?
Let's get it done.
Let's do the chemo.
Whatever I have to do, I, I wantto get past this.
Yeah.
'cause I got work to do for God.
That was kind of my attitude.
Yeah.
And, uh, and so.
You know, I, I went through, uh,surgery and did some

(44:05):
chemotherapy in 2016 is when allthat ended.
And I thought that, you know,okay, you know, I'm good now and
let's get back to, you know,let's get back to working for
the Lord.
And which I did for, um, acouple, uh, two more years and
then the cancer came back and,uh, this time it was terminal

(44:25):
cancer.
That happened in

Speaker (44:29):
terminal cancer where somebody that doesn't know what,
yeah.
So what does exactly does thatmean?
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (44:32):
So, so originally in 2015, I, I had, I had a tumor,
my colon, and, um, that, thatdidn't spread.
And they said that they can getit out and do some chemotherapy,
just, just to make sure that,that, you know, that there was
no rogue cells floating around.
And, and that's what I did in,in 2015 and which brought me to

(44:54):
2016 after six months of chemo.
But then again, in, in, in, in,in, um, was it 2018?
Yeah, 2018 is, is when it cameback.
And this time, uh, itmetastasized.
To my liver.
So I had, I had 11 lesions on myliver cancerous lesions, and
then I had another tumor in mystomach.

(45:16):
The, the part of your stomachthat's called, it's called your
dual deum, it's an essentialpart of your stomach and your
digestive system.
And then that tumor was also onthe head of my pancreas.
So that was a grave diagnosis.
In fact, the, the, the firstsurgeon that, that opened me up.
Close.
Close me back up.
Close me back up.
Told my family in the waitingroom that nothing could be done.

Speaker (45:40):
Did, did it give you a time at, at that point, like a,
like a

Speaker 2 (45:44):
you, you know, not like a time limit, I guess In a
sense, yeah.
You know, from talking to him indifferent interactions that I
had with that doctor, it seemedlike just only a few months.
Yeah.
Can,

Speaker (45:54):
can I ask you somebody that's watching this like, yes.
Yes.
Ca Cancer shouldn't hit a pastora, a man of God who's serving
him that shit.
Right, right.
You know, like, what, what,what, what kind of God is that
Somebody that's, that's thatmight, that question might come
to their mind.
That's what, what would you say?

Speaker 2 (46:11):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, you know, I would saythat, that I understand that
question because this was a bigsurprise to me.
I wasn't expecting that.
In fact, I was kind of confused.
I have to be honest, Lord, youcalled me to be a pastor.
I retired from the policedepartment seeking you, seeking

(46:35):
your will, and, and father, Ireally believe you, you led me
to do all these things and, uh,but now I have cancer and so
none of that made sense to me.

Speaker (46:47):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (46:48):
And, and you know, I think it's important to
acknowledge that, especially tosomeone that yeah, that, you
know, that might be listening.
That sometimes we go throughthings in, in life, man that are
hard to get our heads around it.
And, and that doesn'tnecessarily make us a weak
Christian.
Life is hard and, and God'sways, not our ways.

(47:11):
And we can't always understandhow, how God works.
And not to mention that we livein a fallen world and in a
fallen world, you know,difficult things happen like
that.
Uh, but God is sovereign over itall.
God is sovereign over it all.
And by the way, that's why Iended up writing the book.
Collateral Blessings andCollateral Blessings means that

(47:35):
God can bring unexpectedblessings through difficult
times when we continue toclinging to him.
You know, in faith and, and,and, and it's important to also
kind of talk about what thatfaith looks like.
Yeah.
You know, and, and, and in adifficult time.

(47:55):
Um, but, uh, but first, youknow, I wanna say that kind of
being confused and askingquestions doesn't necessarily
mean that you don't, you don'thave faith.
It's important that when we'refeeling that way, that we talk
to God and, and share with himour raw feelings.

(48:17):
In fact, that's what you read inthe Psalms, right?
We have, we have, uh, psalmsthat are called Psalms of
lament.
What's a psalm?
What's a psalm?
Of lament?
Of lament?
It's someone who's going througha difficult time and doesn't
understand and doesn't get it.
It doesn't seem fair, it doesn'tseem just, but they keep talking
to God.
Mm-hmm.

(48:37):
Right.
They bring their, their pain andtheir anguish and their
confusion and their doubt.
They just, they bring it to theLord.
And, and, um, so, so it, it'sokay

Speaker (48:47):
to, to vent, it's okay to vent to God those feelings.
'cause a a lot of people think,man, I, man, I, I, I, I, I can't
talk to God like that.
That's, that's, that's not asign of faith.
What, what would you say?

Speaker 2 (48:58):
Right.
You know, I, I have, uh, someonethat I know who wrote a book,
uh, about Lament and, um, hisname is Mark rgb, and I forget
the title of the book, uh, butmaybe you could bring it up
later.
Yeah, yeah.
Later.
We, we, we'll put it on the shownotes, you know, show, show
notes and, uh, you know, that'san interesting word, vent.

(49:19):
And, and, and I think that's a,it's a, it's a, it's a good word
to kind of describe crying outto the Lord.
Yeah.
Um.
But it, it's not, it's notexactly venting.
It's, it's because it's, it's,uh, it's how you really feel.
Um, you know, it's not justrandom things that, that, that

(49:44):
you don't know what you'resaying.
It's really how you feel.
So I would say, uh, lamentingis, is a cry from a place of
pain.
Mm-hmm.
Life is hard.
You know, before, before I camehere, earlier today, I was
visiting with, uh, um, a sisterin Christ who just lost her
husband of 30 something years.

(50:06):
She's in pain and she doesn'tknow if she can move on.
She's in pain, she's in deepgrief, and, and I didn't go
there and, and tell her.
You're not supposed to feel sad.
Yeah.
What's the matter with you?
Uh, you know, where's yourfaith?
That would be the wrong thingfor me to say, you know, feeling

(50:30):
pain and feeling grief becauseof a loss or the difficult
things that we go through.
That's not necessarily a lack offaith.
Yeah.
Life is hard.
Jesus wept too.
And from the cross, he cried.
My God, my God, why have youforsaken me?
Because that's a cry from aplace of pain.
Amen.

(50:50):
And, and we need to be raw, raw,and real with God.
But, but, but here's what Iwould wanna say to the audience.
If that's where you findyourself, just don't stop
talking to God.
Talk.
Keep talking to God becauselament.
Is a cry from a place of painthat turns to trust because when

(51:14):
you keep crying out to God, hedraws near to you.
Right.
He reminds you that he's thereand you begin to experience his
presence.
Not that this happens overnight.

Speaker (51:25):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (51:26):
But you keep crying out to God and he meets you
there.

Speaker (51:29):
Amen.
Amen.
That's good.
You, you.
You know what, um, if I couldshare a quick story, um, uh, I,
I.
I tell my wife that I feel like,you know, like life hardened me
and I always pray to God, like,like soften my heart, like make
me more, uh, show more, uh, uh,empathy more and, uh, at, uh, on

(51:51):
service on Sunday.
And there's a brother that justlost his sister to, uh, to
cancer.
So he was in the midst, uh, hewas worshiping, he was leading
worship.
Wow.
So I'm there and he's singing.
While, while, while he wassinging, I just looked up real
quick and I looked at him.
He was singing with all hisheart.

(52:12):
And just in that moment I toldmy wife that something hit me.
Like, and I just started crying.
Like I started weeping and it'salmost, uh, I'm trying to
explain it'cause I, I never, Inever like felt that it's almost
like a transfer.
That I felt like, I don't knowif the spirit of God just

(52:32):
transferred some grief or likewhat he was feeling, but not
showing it.
It was almost like, how, howcould he be worshiping in the
midst of just going throughthis?
Wow.
But it was, uh, and I just, man,I don't know.
Like, I just felt like the griefhit me.
Like, and, and I, and, and I,and I say that'cause I'm not one
to cry and even my wife knowsthat like I'm, I, I don't easily

(52:56):
like cry.
And then.
The following day, I went to ameeting at a church and they're
praying.
It was just a prayer meeting andGod just hit me again.
And it was one of those uglycries, like, yeah, I felt, I
felt kind of embarrassed.
I had like snot running down mynose.
But I, I feel like God's almostlike, like softening my heart

(53:19):
that's in, in the season, whichties into the lamenting and, uh,
the uh, uh, uh, uh, empathy thatwe should be.
Feeling or like sharing with,with others and for others.

Speaker 2 (53:30):
I read this to to, to the widow that I, I was
ministering to today.
This is Psalm 1 0 3 verses 13and 14.
As a father shows compassion tohis children as a father, shows
compassion to his children, sothe Lord shows compassion to
those who fear him.
For he knows our frame.

(53:52):
He remembers that we are dust.
So when we, when we go to Godwith our doubts, he doesn't say,
what's the matter with you?
Why are you doubting?
What's the matter with you?
He understands we are finitecreatures.
And he, and, and, and he doesn'tget mad at us when we come to

(54:14):
him with our pain and ourconfusion and our questions.
In fact, the fact that we keepcoming to him, even though we
have all this confusion, is asign of faith in itself.
And, and the fact that webelieve that he, he will hear us
even though we're doubtingbecause he's a god of compassion
and mercy.
It, it's trusting in hischaracter.

(54:34):
Yeah, and, and, um, you know,this is kind of near and dear to
my heart, uh, because when I wasgoing through, um, you know,
through that, through theterminal cancer.
It was about, uh, three monthswhere, you know, that was the
diagnosis.
I have terminal cancer.
There's nothing could be done.
And I pretty much, pretty,pretty much be honest with you,

(54:57):
kind of resigned to the factthat I only had a few months to
live and, and I was reallygrieving that I was grieving,
grieving the loss of my health.
Uh, grieving the fact that, youknow, my.
My sons are not gonna have afather.
I'm not gonna see them getmarried.
I'm not gonna see mygrandchildren.
I'm not gonna marry them.

(55:18):
My wife's gonna be devastated,my family's gonna be devastated.
I was feeling the weight ofthat.
Yeah.
And, and um, you know, I neverlost my faith.
But I was grieving.
And again, grieving doesn't meanyou're, you're, you're, you're
losing your faith.
Life is hard.
And, and, and in fact, grievegrief, you know, a lot of

(55:40):
preachers often say it, it's,it's connected to love.
You know, we grieve because wehave love in our hearts.

Speaker (55:45):
That's good.

Speaker 2 (55:46):
We grieve the loss of people, you know?
Um, you know, I was grievingbecause I love my family.
I love, you know, you know, Ilove the Lord, but I, I love my
family too.
And, and God allows for that.
God allows for that.
It's not a lack of faith.
So I had a pastor come visit meduring this season that, that I
was sick.

(56:06):
I was, I was undergoingchemotherapy.
Um.
I was just going through a lot,man.
I was, I was going through alot.
It wasn't that season of.
And, you know, and you know, Isay in my book that I, I didn't
lose my faith, but I wasn'tfeeling it too much.
You know, during that time, justfeeling a lot of, lot of, lot of

(56:26):
sorrow man.
Mm-hmm.
And, um, you know, there's aplace in in Philippians where,
where, where the Apostle Paultalks about how Yeah.
The Apostle Paul is, is.
Grateful that that his coldlaborer, I think it's Paphitis
who was on his deathbed,recovered, and he says, man, I'm

(56:47):
so glad he recovered because Iwould've been overwhelmed with
sorrow.
Mm.
This is the Apostle Paul wholater said, you know, for me to
live is Christ and to die hisgain and, and to be with the
Lord is far better, but eventhough to be with the Lord is
far better, that doesn't.
You know, minimize or, or detachus from feeling the, the, the,

(57:08):
the, the pain, you know, ofYeah.
Living in this fallen world andexperience loss.
Yeah.
He felt it too.
Yeah.
And so did Jesus.
So I had this pastor come, comevisit me during that season,
and, and he, he, he was, he wasa good friend of mine and, and
in fact he was my accountabilitypartner.

Speaker (57:24):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (57:25):
And, uh, so he comes to my house and he sits down
and, and man, I was, I was weak.
I was sick, I was nauseous, Iwas going through chemotherapy.
I was in bad shape.
I looked bad.
And he asked me, how are youfeeling?
So I told him I was raw andreal.

Speaker (57:42):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (57:43):
And I also had insomnia.
During this time I wasn't ableto sleep.
'cause I think a, I think one ofthe side effects of the
chemotherapy and you know, whenyou don't sleep for a while, it
could affect you, man.

Speaker (57:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (57:53):
So I was just down, man.
I was down and I told him Ifelt, and he paused for a moment
and he says to me.
Marco, what's the matter withyou man?
Where's your faith?
You, you're supposed to bestrong for your, you, you need
to be strong for your family.
And uh, when he left, I kindawas glad that he left, but I was

(58:16):
more discouraged.
You know, I was morediscouraged.
But you know, when he got in hiscar, he told me this.
He knew he had said the wrongthing.
Mm.
And he said he wept for 20minutes.
Wow.
I would've been served better ifhe would've wept with me for,
for 20 minutes.
Yeah.
Just wept with me.
And sometimes, you know, we feellike in a situation like that,

(58:36):
like we have to say something.
And you, you talked aboutempathy.
Mm-hmm.
And how God is working in yourheart.
And, and you're, you're your guyhas brought you to a place where
you're able to enter into likethe pain of others.

Speaker (58:48):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (58:49):
Right.
You're able to to sympathize andenter E and empathize and em,
empathy is like entering intotheir, their pain and feel it,
and, and, and sometimes that'swhat a person needs.
Yeah.
They just need for you to crywith them and tell'em it's okay
not to be okay.

Speaker (59:05):
I think about Joe's friends, I think wasn't there
for like seven days.
Everybody got money.
Yeah.
They cried

Speaker 2 (59:09):
for seven days.

Speaker (59:10):
They, they just sat next to'em.
Yeah.
That was the

Speaker 2 (59:11):
best thing they did.
As soon as they opened theirmouth, that's when everything
went downhill.

Speaker (59:15):
That's the key.
They just sat there, didn't saynothing, but they were present
without talking.
Yeah,

Speaker 2 (59:19):
right.
You know, when I went to visitthe widow again, having gone
through what I went through,right.
The Bible says that we comfortothers with the comfort that we
receive from the Lord and, and,and, you know, going through
stuff.
Uh.
You know, that's one of thecollateral blessings that I feel
God has, you know, brought me toa place where, where I, I could,
I can sympathize and I, I couldenter into, you know, what

(59:42):
people are going through and,and, and, and they also know
they can relate to me becausesometimes people feel like you,
you don't know what I'm goingthrough.
And, and so I, I kind of, I'm,I'm in a unique place now where,
where, where people kind of feellike they can talk to me because
like I understand.
Yeah.
And, uh, but, you know, um.
One of the things that I'velearned is what you just said,

(01:00:02):
Omar, is just listen.
And I sat there with the widowand just, I just listened to
her.
Cry out man.
Yeah.
Cry out about what she wasfeeling and how lonely she felt
and, and I just listened

Speaker (01:00:17):
and out there just

Speaker 2 (01:00:18):
me listening.

Speaker (01:00:19):
The Ministry of listening.
That's a ministry.

Speaker 2 (01:00:21):
That's a ministry that's really important and
people have to get out what'sinside.
Yep.
Share it with someone that willlisten

Speaker (01:00:30):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:00:30):
Will care.
Yeah.
And not say, what's the matterwith you?
Where's your faith?
What a terrible thing to say.

Speaker (01:00:37):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, so okay, you diagnose andthen, uh, basically you're
looking at an expiration date ina sense.
Yeah.
To put it, yeah.
Yeah.
But what, what, what happens,obviously Yeah.
Something happened.

Speaker 2 (01:00:51):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Because I'm still here, right?
Yeah.
And so, um, wow.
Uh, we could be here all day.
Omar, I know you gave me a timelimit, so there go.

Speaker (01:01:01):
Yeah, we're, we're hour, we're, yeah.
Yeah.
59 minutes, but up.
Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:01:04):
So I have this, you know, 2018, this terminal cancer
diagnosis, and you remember thatI said that, that the first time
I was diagnosed with, with, withcancer was just six months after
I retired from the policedepartment to become the
full-time.
Pastor of Midwest Bible Church.
That was a little confusing atfirst, but I, I had all this

(01:01:25):
adrenaline, like, let's get thisover it.
'cause I got work to do for theLord.
Yes.
But the second cancer diagnosiskinda hit me different.
It hit me different.
Um, I was just really confusedand, and not understanding why
this was happening and, andagain, even resigning to the

(01:01:48):
fact that maybe God's callingme.
Home, but I really didn'tunderstand that.
'cause I felt like I still hadso much work to do for God.
But, you know, I did trust thesovereignty of God, but that
doesn't mean we, you know, we,we understand it.

Speaker (01:02:03):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:02:04):
And, and I, I really didn't understand it.
And so it's amazing becausethere was decisions that I made
including retiring.
That if I wouldn't have madethose decisions, I wouldn't be
talking to you right now becausefor example, in fact, I'm gonna,

(01:02:26):
I'm gonna back up a little bitmore.
Yeah, yeah.
Go ahead.
Yeah, yeah.
Okay.
Because God is sovereign andhe's sovereign over all the
things that we go through, he'sin control and it's so important
that, that we don't lose sightof that.
You know, we might not, we mightnot be able to.
Understand his hand.

(01:02:47):
Like your pastor.
I've heard, I heard your pastoronce say, sometimes we can't
understand God's hand, but wecould trust his heart and, and
we can trust his heart and wecan trust that he's sovereign
and that, that this might, youknow, this might surprise us
that things that hit us might bea big surprise to us, but it's

(01:03:08):
not a surprise to God.
In fact, God knew it was coming.
You know, way before we did.
Yeah.
And, and, and, and we can trustthat, that, that God can bring
unexpected blessings through thedifficult things that we go
through.

Speaker (01:03:26):
Amen.

Speaker 2 (01:03:27):
And not that we get to that place right away, we
just keep crying out to God andkeep clinging to him.
And so, so anyhow, uh, yearsbefore, years before.
I even became a pastor, God, Godgave me this opportunity to
visit a young man in prisonnamed Burt Burials, who you

(01:03:49):
interviewed not too long ago.
Yes, and now I'm going back tothe first church that I was
pastoring.
Okay.
As a bivocational pastor and hismom and dad, Cecilio and Ilda,
uh, began coming to our churchand that was the providence of
God.
And, and again, we'll be hereall day.
If I tell you all these waysthat God was orchestrating and

(01:04:09):
working to bring.
Uh, you know, redemptiveblessings, you know, to, to our,
to, to our lives and, and thelives of people that are
connected with us.
And so God brought them to ourchurch, Awilda and Cecilio, and
as they started coming to ourchurch, they made known to our
church and to me that they had ason in prison.

(01:04:31):
In fact, at this point, he hadbeen locked up for 10 years.
And as you know, Burt went toprison for a drive-by shooting.
Yeah.
He received a 40 year sentence.
And, um, so we began to pray forhim.
Mom and dad wanted us to pray.
You know, they're, they'relearning that, that God could
redeem.
Amen.
Uh, reverse and redeem.
We talked about that earlier.
Oh yeah.

(01:04:52):
It could be before off camera.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's right.
You know, the, uh, the, theresurrection.
Of Jesus from the dead provesthat, that he can turn things
around what seems like the worstthing, that he can turn it into,
the best thing that could, that,that, that, that could ever
happen to us.
And so they started believingthat.
And they started praying fortheir son and asking the church

(01:05:12):
to pray for him.
And then one day dad asked me tovisit him and in prison.
And now to visit someone inprison, you gotta be on their
visiting list.
Yeah.
Now at the time, I'm a policeofficer.
Okay.
And Burt wasn't too fond ofpolice officers back then as a
hardcore gang banger in prison.
He wasn't found a policeofficer.

(01:05:32):
So, so when dad told him, Hey,put, you know, put my pastor
who's also a police officer onyour visiting list, he was very
reluctant to do that.
And fact, uh, as he tells thestory.
He told his father, why youbring that cop up in here?
That's what he told his father.
But outta respect, he did have alot of respect for his dad.
He put me on on the visitinglist and it takes about a month.

(01:05:53):
Right.
For all.
Yeah.

Speaker (01:05:54):
Right.
The paperwork.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Gotcha.
Yeah.
All that process,

Speaker 2 (01:05:56):
you know, and you know, during that kind of like
that waiting period, it occurredto me and as he tells the story,
it occurred to him too.
You know, this is crazy to, to,you know, to get our heads
around the way God works.
But I was actually, uh, involvedin the case that led him, that

(01:06:19):
led to his in, in arrest andimprisonment.
So I was on the beat when a callcame out of this drive-by
shooting.
In fact, my partner and I wereon the way to that scene.
But then we get a call from thedispatcher that there was, um.
Uh, a gunshot victim at St.
Mary's Hospital.
So we went there and that wasthe, the victim in, in Burt's

(01:06:41):
case.
And we did the paperwork andnotified the detectives.
There was a, a car, the car thathe was shot in was in the
parking lot.
We, that became a crime scene.
We, and, and so eventually weturned it over to the detectives
and I think three days laterthey ended up picking up Bert,
but I was involved.
Yeah.
Isn't that's something.

Speaker (01:07:01):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:07:01):
And now here I am, 10 years later.
A pastor and dad wanted me to govisit him, and then he finds
that out too.
So now he really doesn't wannasee me.

Speaker (01:07:09):
I know he mentioned something about looking at his
paperwork and seeing your name.
That's right.

Speaker 2 (01:07:13):
Remember that?
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
So, but God opened that door,man.
God was providentially workingand just an amazing way.
Yeah.
Right.
Bringing two unlikely peopletogether.
At, at a visiting, in a visitingroom.
And so here am I sitting atthis, at this table with Bert

(01:07:37):
and, and in a visiting room andum, man, God, uh, just.
I began the work, and I rememberBert, when Bert tells a story,
what he remembers is me askinghim, are you hungry?
Let's, and go.
Me going to the vending machineand bringing him some burgers, I
think that softened them up.

Speaker (01:07:57):
They say the way, that's a lot of man hearts to
the stomach.
But you know, there's,

Speaker 2 (01:08:01):
there, there's even, you know, a, a biblical
principle there about meetingpeople at, at, at a table,
right?
And breaking bread.
Building that bridge and, andhaving a relationship with that
person.
That's a, that's, uh, there'ssomeone who wrote a, a, a book
called the Gospel comes with ahouse key and the hospitality

(01:08:23):
and that, and it

Speaker (01:08:25):
is very big.
Jesus

Speaker 2 (01:08:26):
sat right with, with tax collectors and sinners and,
and, and, um, and he gotcriticized for that.

Speaker (01:08:33):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:08:34):
And uh, by the way, I was a police officer and.
And that could, that could befrom the pound two of me.

Speaker (01:08:39):
Oh yeah.
Doing that right.
I was it like you really, liketechnically or legally speaking,
not really supposed to do that.
Right.

Speaker 2 (01:08:45):
I think I kind of got away with it.
'cause I was also a pastor too,so you had to So I'm there as a
pastor.
Yeah, yeah.
You know, but it was still kindof a conflict of interest in
some people's eyes and, and, uh,but anyhow, so, um.
Anyhow, but, so I'm there and,and God opened the door for me
to, to share the gospel withhim.
And he came to faith, and, andthere was other things that

(01:09:08):
happened.
Like, for example, two weeksbefore that visit, he ended up
going to seg and then seg, uh,he, he began to read this bible
that somebody gave him for thevery first time.
The, the, the timing of that.
Yeah.
Two weeks before my visit,

Speaker (01:09:23):
his timing.

Speaker 2 (01:09:24):
Right.
And that kind of began to breakhim down.
Yeah.
And, and prepare his heart forthe, for, for the visit.

Speaker (01:09:29):
There, there's something that happens in seg.
I, I told this, I was locked upfor three years, but two and a
half years into it, I told astory that I got caught getting
a tattoo, so they threw me inthe hole.
And s so I was, and, and I, Itell it this way for two and a
half years, I, I held ittogether.
Like, I didn't cry, you know, Ididn't show no weakness.
Like, oh, I miss my family.
Like I was, I was good because Iwas around other people playing

(01:09:51):
basketball, working out, playinghandball.
But as soon as they threw me inthere, like it hit me like, man,
I'm locked up.
And you wanna talk about softerin your heart.
It only took me two weeks and Istarted crying.
I broke down because I'm, itfinally hit me that I was behind
bars.
And I think about that scripturethat says it.
It's not good for man to bealone, and something happens.
I, I believe that's likeprovidential too.

(01:10:13):
For him to have been there.
And just the word of God.
God

Speaker 2 (01:10:15):
knows how to break us down, right?
Yes, sir.
God knows how to break us down,man.
So God was breaking down a, areal hardened, uh, you know,
hardened man.
And so man, at that visitingroom, uh, when was that?
It was 10 years into his prisonsentence.

(01:10:36):
I forget exactly what year thatwas.
But, but he came to know theLord, man.
He came to Christ.
And his life began to turnaround.
The guy did a lot of othermiracles.
Yeah.
How he was able to get out ofthe gang in prison.
That's almost impossible.

Speaker (01:10:49):
Right.
You, you know what?
I'm gonna put a link to histestimony.
Yeah.
He, he can tell that, uh, thetitle is, uh, arrested and
Redeemed and I think the undertitle was like, this will be
your Last Time, but his name,uh, uh, bird Berry.
Right, right.
I'll put it under there.

Speaker 2 (01:11:02):
Yeah, that's right.
Because he remembers hearingthat.
Yeah.
When he was doing the drive-byshooting, and then I was, as I
was witnessed it to him.
I said something very similar.
Yeah.
He said you told him the samething.
And I said, might this could beyour last opportunity, you know?
And uh, so man, that all clickedfor him.
Yeah.
God used that.
Well, man, he, Bert began tojust immerse himself in the word

(01:11:25):
of God and, and, and grow in theLord in that prison for the next
10 years.
And then, you know, I keptvisiting him.
Other people in our church beganto visit him, and he was already
kind of part of the churchfamily before he even got outta
prison.
And then when he got outtaprison with Manny, you know he
has that thing meet them at thegate.
Yeah.
And so we met him at the gateman, and he's been with us ever

(01:11:47):
since.
He's never turned back.
And um, and he's doing great.
He's married as a kid, he has ahouse.
He, amen.
He works for the HVAC companyand he got trained to do that in
prison and he's doing real good.
He's a deacon in our church.

Speaker (01:12:01):
Right.
Look at that.
That's, that's awesome.

Speaker 2 (01:12:04):
You know, but

Speaker (01:12:05):
yeah, go, you know,

Speaker 2 (01:12:06):
it's amazing, you know, after I wrote that book,
collateral Blessings, thattestimony is in the book.
And, uh, some prisons chaplainsand, and, and through Manny, his
connections, uh, you know,prisons got prisons and
chaplains became aware of thatbook and which has open, which
has opened the door for Bird andI to go back in prisons

(01:12:28):
together.
Oh, wow.
And tag team and share ourtestimony.
And, uh, we did that atSheridan.
We did it at East Moline not toolong ago.
Oh, no way.
And then we're also, um, uh,distributing, uh, free copies of
the book, collateral Blessings,which is about again, how God
can reverse and redeem man Amen.
Through the gospel and what apowerful thing.

(01:12:50):
Right?
Yeah.
And I didn't orchestrate any ofthat.
Right.
And, and, and, and so, you know,God connected me with Burt.
Um, and that, that, uh, put mein, in, in contact or, or
allowed me to meet Manny Millbecause Manny was already
ministering in that prison.
And he also began to minister toBur, and then the CO Nilda

(01:13:13):
became aware of, of who Mannywas and, and started going to
RTO, um, his ministry onThursdays.
It's like a a, it's almost likea church service.
Yeah.
It's a, a radical time out.
They weed in.

Speaker (01:13:25):
Uh, what's that church?
Uh, compass.
Compass Church.
Compass Church.
Compass Church in Whedon.
Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:13:30):
And,

Speaker (01:13:30):
uh,

Speaker 2 (01:13:31):
you could put that in the show notes.
Oh, no.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker (01:13:33):
So Compass Church wheen, uh, Thursdays 6:00 PM six
to seven

Speaker 2 (01:13:37):
30.
That's right.
He has a heart to minister tothe families who have loved ones
who are incarcerated and theincarcerated.
Yeah.
Just a tremendous ministry man.
Amen.
That just, uh, display of thelove of Christ.
Yeah.
And, uh, so I got to meet Manny.
Uh, through all that, throughthat connection.
And then when I retired in 2015,now that freed me up and I

(01:14:01):
already knew Manny, and he askedme to be on his board, on the
board of Cornier house.
Okay.
So now I'm, I'm, I'm on hisboard and I got to meet, you
know.
People that he knew, justwonderful people.
They go to RTO.
And I met a man, uh, who was aregular attender to, to RTO.
His name is Scott Feline.
And, um, almost from the momentthat I met him, he, man, he.

(01:14:27):
He had this heart for me, whichI don't feel like I deserve it,
but he just, just, I had favorwith him and he had this love
for me and this desire to prayfor me.
In fact, he felt that God hadassigned him specifically to
pray for me.
Like he had a divine assignmentfrom God to pray for me, and he
actually told me that.
Hmm.

(01:14:48):
And so, uh, fast forward.
I get diagnosed with terminalcancer and Scott fell is in my
life, and he would've never beenin my life if all these other
things hadn't happened.
These faith decisions.
Yeah.
Meeting Bert, uh, meeting Mannyat, because I met Bert and, and,
and obeyed God and went to visithim to share the gospel with

(01:15:09):
him.
Right.
And so, so I know Scott and, andScott, man, he never stopped
praying for me.
He never, he never, I mean,like.
The, that terminal.
I mean, you know, he, he feltthe pain of that'cause he loved
me and he loves me today, buthis faith like never wavered

(01:15:31):
man.
He had a faith that I didn'thave.
Mm.
And sometimes we need to havefriends in our lives that, that
have, that, that, that havefaith for us.
Like the four men that carry theright, the, the lame man put him
down through the roof to get himto Jesus.
Amen.
And that was Scott in my life.
And in fact, he actually toldme.
That he, he believed that, thatGod had given him, um, a faith

(01:15:55):
to believe that I was gonna behealed.
And again, I didn't have thatfaith, but, but God gave it to
him, man, and he just keptpraying.
And would you believe.
That this a fervent intercessor.
And other people were praying, II have a wonderful church, man.
They were praying for me.
Other people were praying forme, Manny and and RTO and people

(01:16:15):
all over the country werepraying for me.
And um, and, uh, but there was aspecial way that God was using
Scott Feline.
And he's, uh, he's a pilot, bythe way.
Okay.
And he flies a, a plane for, uh,a private plane for a gentleman,
a wealthy man here in Chicago.
Um, and I had, I had met himbefore'cause Scott had

(01:16:38):
introduced me on anotheroccasion to him.
And, uh, so he knew about me.
And so when Scott was flying hisboss somewhere, he told him
about what I was going through,that I had terminal cancer and
Scott's boss told, uh, Scott.
Oh, I'm sorry to hear that.
But listen, Scott.

(01:16:58):
My wife and I have a friendwho's a renowned transplant
surgeon, a world renownedtransplant surgeon.
Told Marco to go see him andthree days later they, they,
they helped to set that up and Iwas in the office of a renowned
transplant surgeon.
And, um, it's a long story man,but, but, uh, that, that.

(01:17:22):
That transplant surgeon, hisname is Dr.
En Rico Betti.
He works out of UIC.
He's the chief of surgeonsthere.
He looked at my scan.
He says, what you have is great,but I think that I'm able to
help you.
And that was kind of the firstglimmer of hope that we
received.
Scott was there in that officewhen that happened and my wife
was there.
I was there, uh, uh, mysecretary was there as Jackie.

(01:17:43):
She was there and uh, and he.
You know, I call'em the MichaelJordan surgeons because nobody
else would touch me.
I had already had all theiropinions.
Oh yeah.
And nobody was gonna touch me,but he was willing to, to take a
chance.
And, and he performed two majorsurgeries, one's called a
Whipple surgery, uh, thatinvolved cutting a part of my

(01:18:04):
stomach and cutting part of mypancreas where the tumor was
cutting that out.
And, um, you know, none of thiswas a guarantee that it was
gonna work.
And, and there was still a veryhigh probability that the cancer
would come back even if they gotit all out.
And so after he did the Whipplesurgery, then he did a liver
resection, uh, which involvedcutting half my liver.

(01:18:25):
'cause most of the lesions wereon one side.
And then the part of the liverthat remained where there was
two more lesions on there, heburned them off.
It's called an ablation.
Uh, it, it is, it's, it's crazywhat, what the, the surgeries
that he did on me, and thenagain, there was still a 80 to
90% chance that even after allthat had already came back once
that it could come back again.
Well, that was seven years agoand it never came back.

(01:18:47):
Praise God.
Yeah.
And again, I would've never metScott who connected me to that
doctor if all these other faithdecisions hadn't happened even
years ago.
Years ago, and that's why thebook is called Collateral
Blessings, right?
'cause God can bring unexpectedblessings in difficult times

(01:19:10):
through our faith decisions and,and our obedience.
You know, the, the, the faithdecisions that we make today
could bless us today, but couldalso have these, these ripple
effects of, of redeeming grace.
Not only blesses us, but otherstoo.
And even right now, right?
Yeah.
Around here because of what Godhas done and, and, and I have no
doubt that people hearing thistestimony today are gonna be

(01:19:31):
encouraged to keep trusting Godand clinging to him even in a
difficult time.

Speaker (01:19:36):
Amen.
Man.
That's.
Just man, get my mind.
I'm, I'm putting the, theconnections together.
How, how it all works, uh, froma cop to a criminal to, you
know, being in imprisoned, thenvisiting'em when you technically
shouldn't be.
And then the, the, thecollateral blessings that follow
that, that's amazing.
That's no way we couldorchestrate that.

(01:19:57):
Oh, that's, that's only the handof God and anybody to who, who
still doesn't believe in God,or, oh, it's coincidence, man.
Come on man.
Like,

Speaker 2 (01:20:05):
and there's so many more, um.
Co later blessings that happenthrough all this.
That may be another time you'llhave me on.

Speaker (01:20:12):
Okay.
Might, is there another one?
I know we're at one 19.
I know you gave me a time limit,but, uh, man, any other one that
you wanna share that comes tomind that you, you feel ties in
to, to what you Sure.
I

Speaker 2 (01:20:24):
have a couple more?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Go, go ahead.
And, uh, but I, I'll, I'll shareone more.
Uh, when I had, so in between myfirst and second cancer
diagnosis, God.
Um, led a man to call me whohad, who was diagnosed with
cancer.
His 14-year-old daughter wascoming to our church and she had

(01:20:46):
gotten saved, and when he getsterminal cancer and he announces
it to his family, obviously hisfamily was very, you know,
devastated.
But his 14-year-old daughter whowas saved now the way that she
responded, touched dad's heart.
His name is Eddie Rodriguez, andthat kind of led him to call me.

(01:21:08):
And it's a long story, but Yeah.
But he called me to tell me thathe has terminal cancer and he,
he, he, he learned that I hadcancer at one time.
Now I'm, I'm in between thediagnosis.
Yeah.
Yes.
And, and he felt like I couldrelate to him.
But he also saw this faith inhis daughter, this real

(01:21:28):
relationship that she had with,with the Lord.
And he knew, and he hadreligion.
He was a deval Catholicactually, but he didn't have
this, this relationship, thisfaith, this hope like his
daughter.
And he wanted that.
And he was like, how can I getthat?
Two hours later he is in myoffice and um, and I lead him to
Christ and God just poured a, agrace upon him.

(01:21:54):
You know how the, how the Biblesays God's strength is made
perfect and weakness.
And when, when Paul was goingthrough a very difficult thing,
remember in in Corinthians wherehe begins to plead with God, he
prayed three times about it and,and, and God didn't really take
the thorn in the flesh away fromhim.
Remember that?
Yeah.
Uh, but God gave him a grace.
Yeah.
Uh, that kept them dependentupon God and useful and hopeful,

(01:22:19):
and, and God gave Eddie thatkind of grace.
And although he had thisterminal cancer, once he got
saved, he had such joy when hegot baptized, uh, in his baptism
and, and his, uh, testimony, uh,during his baptism, he said, I'm
gonna win.
I'm in a win-win situationbecause, you know, I believe God

(01:22:40):
can heal me, and if he does, I'mgonna keep serving him and, and,
and spreading the gospel andserving my family.
But if he doesn't, I'm gonna bewith him.
And you know, it's one thing tosay that when everything's going
good in your life, but to haveterminal cancer and to have that
kinda hope, that real hope, thatreal presence of God in your

(01:23:01):
life, like he had it, itinspired a lot of people and,
and he began to win people toChrist in his circle of
influence.
And um, and then.
I get diagnosed with terminalcancer too.
So then the God flips the scriptand God begins to use him to, to
minister, to minister to me.

(01:23:23):
And uh, you know, he did go tobe with the Lord.
And um, a couple weeks before hewent to be with the Lord, he was
in hospice at, at home, and Iwas at, I was at his bedside and
he was very, very weak.
His, his voice was very hoarse.
And he tells me, he says, Marco,pastor, I, I know I look bad

(01:23:45):
from the outside, but I want youto know that on the inside it's
well with my soul.
And you know, when I, when I,when I, when I wrote the book, I
share in the book that I believethat's a greater miracle than my
physical healing, the hope thathe had the assurance.
He has, and that he had at thatmoment, the fact that he knew he

(01:24:08):
was saved, that the presence ofGod was with them and gave him
hope and joy and confidence in,in that state that he was in.
In fact, salvation is thegreatest miracle, right?
And so I, I didn't write thebook, uh, as a formula that if
you do everything that I do,you're gonna be healed to.
Yeah.

(01:24:28):
Um, but.
I wrote the book with the goalthat there's redemption in
Christ.
And, and when you know him, youhave hope in this life and for
all eternity.
And you truly are in a win-winsituation no matter what happens
in your life.
Amen.
And that was his testimony.
And now get this, that Ipreached his funeral the night

(01:24:52):
before my first major surgery.
And the title of my message was,I'm in a win-win situation.
And we shared his.
Video testimony when he gotbaptized

Speaker (01:25:02):
at At the funeral?

Speaker 2 (01:25:03):
Yeah, at the funeral.
Bunch of people got saved thatare still going to my church to
this day.

Speaker (01:25:11):
And it wouldn't have happened if it wasn't.
It almost like if death was aseed being planted.
Right.
In a sense, not really dead.
'cause you know how they say aseed gotta be buried Right.
In order for life to come out ofit.
So it was almost like.
A lot of life came out of a, atragic situation, right?

Speaker 2 (01:25:28):
That's right.
That's right.
Um, um, he ended up leading his,um, his brother-in-law to the
Lord before he passed away, andhe had just gotten divorced.
Uh, well, his wife, ex-wife endsup getting saved and I ended up
remarrying them.
Okay.
And, and he went to be with theLord and, and, and, uh, and

(01:25:52):
even.
Even though he's with the Lord,the ripple effects of his
testimony of the hope that hehad, that he had in Christ is
still,

Speaker (01:26:03):
yeah,

Speaker 2 (01:26:04):
it, it, it is still creating these, these, these
collateral blessings.
Yeah.
Uh, so not too long ago, uh, hisbrother-in-law's, uh, daughter
Brittany and her fiance, uh, gotsaved and, uh, baptized and I,
and I recently married them.
You know, so

Speaker (01:26:22):
the, the generations that follow Right.
It's not just right.

Speaker 2 (01:26:25):
That's right.
And, and again, that's thegreatest miracle right there.
Yeah.
Because what does the prophet,if you gain the whole world, you
lose your soul.
You know?
Uh, you know, everybody that,that, that Jesus healed during
his earth, during his earthministry ended up dying.
Yeah.
So, so the greatest miracle isbeing born again and putting
your faith and trust in JesusChrist.

(01:26:47):
Amen.
And having hope in this life forfar eternity, not just receiving
a physical healing like I had.
Yeah.

Speaker (01:26:53):
Right.

Speaker 2 (01:26:54):
You know, so I, I wanna make that clear.
No.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That, that,

Speaker (01:26:56):
that's the most important, that's the most
important thing.
Like healing in a sense.
'cause it is a healing, right?
That's right.
'cause we're sick.
Uh, sins sick.
Right,

Speaker 2 (01:27:04):
right.
Can I say this last thing?
Yeah, yeah.
No.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, one of the things that I sayin the book is that.
It's important again, that whenwe're going through hard stuff,
that we continue to talk to Godand wait on him, but not just
wait on him to do what we'reasking him to do because waiting
on God in the Bible is not justasking him to do something and

(01:27:27):
then waiting for him to do it,but it's actually putting our
trust in Him is coming to him inprayer, is worshiping him.
It, it, it, it is putting ourfaith in his character and our
trust in who he is, and that'swhat waiting on God is.
And yes, when we wait on God,God can deliver us, you know,

(01:27:51):
and, and in, in, in ways that,that are miraculous.
God delivered me.
But sometimes Omar, the greatestmiracle is not God delivering us
from something, but sometimesthe greatest miracle is what God
does in us, in, in the waitingas we're waiting on him, the way
that God works in us and refinesus, and brings us closer to, to

(01:28:14):
him and, and gives us an eternalperspective.
You know, when I had terminalcancer, my perspective on, on a
lot of things change the thingsthat don't matter material, that
that was nothing.
Souls mattered.
My faith mattered more to methan anything.
Um, and, and, uh, again, um, Godcan deliver us from things, but

(01:28:36):
he also delivers us through thestuff that we go through as we
wait on him.
And sometimes that's thegreatest miracles, what He does
in us as we wait on him.

Speaker (01:28:45):
Amen.
Amen.
A lot of times, like I knowthing we were talking before,
like we don't see it until we.
Right.

Speaker 2 (01:28:51):
That's right.
Sometimes life only makes sensein reverse, but God is working.
You could be, you can count onthat.
He's

Speaker (01:28:57):
working.
Amen.
Uh, real, what was it?
Oh, what was say?
Uh, going back to the book, uh,where can people go to, to, to,
to, to buy it, to, to read it.

Speaker 2 (01:29:07):
Right, right.
So you can, um, get a electronicdigital copy on, on Amazon, but
uh, you can also get a hard copythrough Country Pines, uh, dot
org, country pines.org.
You put that in the show notes.
No.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely.

Speaker (01:29:23):
Yeah.
Yeah.
If you send, send me a link orwhatever links you gimme, I'll
throw under.
Yes.
And I also, uh, what, what, whatchurch again do you pastor in
case somebody's in the Chicagoland area?
Maybe, you know, maybe you'renot plugged into a church or you
just want to, uh, visit.
WW where could it go?
I,

Speaker 2 (01:29:37):
I, pastor Midwest Bible Church.
It's located at 34 41 NorthCicero, uh, Cicero and Addison
between Belmont and, andAddison.
And boy, we would love to haveyou, uh, we, we are a hospital
for sinners, not a club forsaints.
Jesus came to seek and save theloss.
And we would love to, tominister to you.

(01:29:57):
We would love to minister toyou.
God bless you all.
Amen.
Amen.

Speaker (01:30:00):
And, uh, you, you know what, uh, a, any final words I
always, uh, give an opportunity,anything we didn't touch on
that, that you want to, uh,share?
And then if you could close usout in the prayer.

Speaker 2 (01:30:10):
Sure, sure, sure.
Uh, well, I say this in thebook, um, that, that sometimes
God's providence hides inhardship.
And if you're in a difficulttime.
Uh, I just want to assure youthat, that God is working, God

(01:30:30):
is working.
It, it, it might catch us bysurprise, but it hasn't caught
him by surprise.
And he can al, he can deliver usfrom, but he could also deliver
us through.
Maybe you're already saved andif you're saved, keep clinging
to the Lord.
God's providence, highs inhardship.
Look for God's blessings there.

(01:30:52):
There are unexpected blessingsthat God brings through
difficult situations as weclinging to him, uh, in, in in
faith God.
You can, you can count on thefact that all things work
together for good to those wholove God, to those who are
called according to his purpose.
And, and maybe you're not saved,maybe you've never put your
faith in trust in Christ as yourLord and Savior.

(01:31:14):
That's where Eddie was.
Eddie Rodriguez when he calledme.
He realized when he had terminalcancer that he needed more than
anything else, even more thanhealing, was to have a
relationship with God.
And he found that relationshipwith God by putting his faith
and trust in Jesus Christ as hisLord and Savior.
And that's what I wanna plea,uh, with you to do.

(01:31:36):
If you don't know Christ as yourLord and Savior, he died for
you.
Uh, he went to the cross.
It paid the price for our sin.
And he rose again to prove thathe can give eternal life,
eternal hope to all who puttheir faith and trust in him.
Turn from yourself.
Rule.
Put your faith in trust in JesusChrist, and that will be the
greatest decision that you evermake.

Speaker (01:31:57):
God bless you my name.
Amen.
And if you could close out in aprayer.
Yes.
Yes.
Amen.

Speaker 2 (01:32:02):
Oh, father, I thank you God.
I thank you for, uh, being a Godwho, who we can trust.
Uh, you are a God who issovereign over all things.
Uh, you are, you are on thethrone, and sometimes in our
lives things seem to be outtacontrol, but there are never out
of outside of your control.

(01:32:24):
Oh God, you are.
You are sovereign, but not onlyare you sovereign, you are a
God.
Who is love and you demonstratedthat love on the cross of Jesus.
Your word says that while wewere yet sinners, God
demonstrated his love toward us.
And that while we were atsinners, Christ, uh, died uh,
for us.

(01:32:45):
And so, God, I pray for anyonewho may be listening today.
God, I pray for them.
I pray that if they're goingthrough a difficult season in
their life, if they feel liketheir situation is hopeless, oh
God, that you will shine yourlight, and that they would look
up to you and they, and thatthey would see that you're not
only a sovereign God, but thatyou're a loving God who made a

(01:33:07):
way, uh, for us to be savedthrough Jesus Christ.
If, if, if someone who's hearingme right now doesn't know Christ
a Savior God, I pray that todaywill be the day that they would
trust Christ as your Lord andSavior.
And again, those who are saved,oh God, I pray that they will
continue to wait on you.
And, and to believe that you candeliver them from whatever

(01:33:28):
they're going through, but thatyou can also deliver them
through what they're goingthrough.
Uh, that sometimes the greatestmiracles that you perform are,
are, are not only what youdeliver us from what, but what
you deliver us through as wecontinue to wait on you and talk
to you Lord, and, and cling toyou Lord.
And so, uh, father bless thosewho are who.

(01:33:49):
Who are hearing us today who arelistening to this, uh, podcast.
Bless them.
Encourage them.
Strengthen their faith,strengthen their hope in you.
Draw near to them, oh God, asthey draw near to you.
God, I pray in Jesus' name.
Amen.

Speaker (01:34:04):
Amen.
Amen.
Amen.
Thank you so much, pastor, forbeing on here.
Amen.
My pleasure, man.

Speaker 2 (01:34:08):
Thanks

Speaker (01:34:08):
for having me.
No, yeah, yeah.
Has been a honor and a blessingto, to hear your story and I
know it's gonna bless many.
Uh, so with that, we're gonnaget ready to, to, to sign off.
Uh uh, Matthew four 16 reads,the people who sat in darkness
have seen a great light, andupon those who sat in the region
and shadow of death light hasdawned alongside Pastor Marco.

(01:34:30):
David Am Omar Calvio.
And we are wrong, too strong.

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