"From Corporate World to Prison Ministry": Unleashing Freedom From Within ft. Cliff Parrish

In this episode of From Wrong to Strong, host Omar Calvillo interviews Cliff Parrish, co-founder of the prison ministry organization “Freedom From Within.” Cliff shares his journey from a difficult childhood, marked by his father's alcoholism and suicide, to founding and running a successful business. A turning point came during a mission trip to the Philippines, where he witnessed hopelessness and began working on prison ministry. Freedom From Within, founded by Cliff and his wife Sue, focuses on transforming lives of incarcerated individuals through a structured program called Transformational Rhythms. The program consists of four interconnected courses aimed at equipping prisoners with the tools to lead meaningful lives inside and outside prison. Parrish highlights the importance of transformation, integrity, and empowerment in the lives of the incarcerated, and discusses his vision to expand the program through digital platforms. 

https://www.freedomfromwithin.org/

https://www.freedomfromwithin.org/podcast

https://a.co/d/fkSQb37 (Link for the books)

Send us a text

Support the show

Website: fromwrongtostrong.org

Become a supporter:
https://www.buzzsprout.com/2049675/support

Rep the podcast with fresh gear and join a community that's shaping positive change!
https://wrongtostrongchicago.creator-spring.com/listing/wrong-to-strong-chicago-pod

https://fromwrongtostrong.buzzsprout.com
Instagram https://www.instagram.com/fromwrongtostrong?igsh=MXVsMHBjcGN2Y2JvOA==
Email: [e-mail]
https://youtube.com/@fromwrongtostrong
https://www.facebook.com/fromwrongtostrongpodcast

Donate to help support the work we are doing via the link below: https://tinyurl.com/W2SPodcast-Donations

Episode Transcript

(00:15):
Hello everyone, and welcome toanother episode of Wrong to
Strong Chicago.
I'm your host.
Uh, my name's Omar Calvio, and,and tonight I have my guest
joining us.
His name is Cliff Perish.
Uh, I, I met this brotherthrough, Ronica Casillo.
So a big, uh, a shout out toRonnie, uh, through Ronnie.
I, man, I've been connected withso many guests.
Been able to make, uh, what Icall and consider, uh, divine

(00:38):
connections.
It's just, it's been a blessingto connect with but yeah, I
wanna share a little bit aboutthis brother.
He runs a, a organization, it'scalled, uh, freedom From Within
and I'm, I'm gonna read a littlebit of what they do here.
So it says, uh, freedom fromwithin equips and empowers
prisoners to unleash themasterpiece already inside of,
of them, uh, to live meaningfuland productive lives inside and

(01:01):
outside of prison.
Cliff, along with his wife, SuePerish, have been ministering
inside the prison system formore than 10 years now,
investing in thousands of hoursin prisoners, prison and prison
staff and prison, leadership,identifying issues and creating
programs to empower those behindbars.
Cliff and Sue built freedom fromwithin on top of a framework for

(01:23):
transformation, which has beenresearched, developed, and
practiced over the last 35years.
Together, they have leveragedthis framework to equip and
empower those incarcerated tounleash the masterpiece in
themselves.
The relationships, groups,organizations, and communities.
Over the years, a programconsisting of four connected

(01:44):
courses has been developedcalled Transformational Rhythms,
which has proven successful inrestoring the broken to
wholeness, breaking generationalissues, and restoring a positive
legacy for future generations.
So, I'd like to welcome myguests, uh, cliff Paris to the
podcast.
Welcome brother.
Hey, Omar, thanks, uh, forhaving me, man.

(02:06):
Great to be here.
Oh, no.
For, for sure.
You know, uh, I, I know we weretalking right, right now, uh,
off air, about the, the peoplethat you know, uh, Paul Boko,
Ronnie Carillo, and, uh, like Isaid, these brothers spoke
highly of you, a and they spokehighly of the ministry work
that, that you're doing inthere.
I know these two brothers, uh,have been blessed by it yeah,
it's, it's good, you know, and,and you know, both Ronnie and

(02:27):
Paul and, and so many others,um, you know, it's exciting to
be able to, you know, hear, hearwhat they're doing out in the
world.
Um, it just, it really justblesses our heart, uh, to see
them successful, you know, in,in, in those two cases.
Of course, you know, um, itrequired, um, a miracle to, you
know, to, to get them, you know,out and released.

(02:50):
And, um, and I've always, um,thought that, uh, the worst
thing about, you know, beingstuck in prison is, uh, being
released and not being ready,you know, and those two, uh,
general specifically, you know,did the hard work, um, when all
the odds were against them and,um, you know, praise God that
you're able to be able to goahead and, and, and now they're

(03:10):
doing significant work, uh, inthe kingdom.
It's, it's just amazing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
For sure.
Especially after spending like,so, so much time behind bars, I
know around, uh, 47 and Paul, Ibelieve it was 35, and for them
to come out and be like, ththriving, you know, not, not
just surviving, but thriving andbeing a blessing to other,
people as well.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, and they've made so many,you know, you know, just to talk

(03:32):
about them for a bit, I mean,um, both Ronnie, um, and Paul
have invested heavily in thepeople around them over the
years.
And, and so there's countless,you know, countless people that
I could speak for, um, that werein our program, uh, that were
positively impacted and, andtransformed lives that impacted
generations.

(03:53):
You know, our organization hasreached over 2000 people, uh,
since we went full time in 2018.
And, um, and so when we're.
When we're out amongsteverybody, you know, we, we, we
let them know that, you know,we're not playing games here.
You know, we're in atransformation business.
And, um, and, you know, peoplelike Ronnie and, and Paul and,

(04:16):
and so many others, you know,they're like, Hey, I want to
change.
And, uh, they do the hard workand then, but, but anyways, you
know the reason I brought you onhere is'cause I know Ronnie had,
shown me some books that, thatyou guys, uh, uh, made, I guess
is the curriculum that you guysuse in prison that he started
mentioning, some of the chaptersand some of the things that you

(04:37):
guys, deal with to prepare theseguys, to come out and to, to, to
be successful.
Uh, but man, when I see Noah, Itold Ryan, man, I, I wanted some
copies so that, that's how Iasked him.
And then he told me to reach outto you.
And this is how we connected.
But really the, the main reasonI want you out here is to talk
about the ministry, uh, but bebefore we get into it and what
led you maybe to start thisministry and the work that

(04:58):
you're doing.
We would like to know, someabout you as, as a person.
Uh, so maybe could you tell us,uh, how was life for you when
you were young, like growing up?
Uh, was mom and dad in thepicture?
And if you could tell us whatpart of the country were, were,
were you raised?
Yeah, I was in the north.
I grew up in the northwestsuburbs of, uh, cook County, you
know, cook County area, um, in,uh, in the town called Buffalo
Grove.

(05:19):
Um, and, you know, my, my, myupbringing was, was fine.
My, uh, my dad was an alcoholic.
And so, um, I know that, uh, inyour testimony, you know, you
talked, uh, heavily about, uh,about that as well in your
background.
Um, you know, my dad did thebest he could while he dealt
with his stuff, you know.
Um, but, uh, you know, growingup, um, you know, kind of went

(05:45):
down the, the path of, uh,dealing with, you know, the
brokenness that, you know,alcoholism, you know, comes, you
know, does in the family.
Um, and then, um, you know, oneday, um, uh, my dad was in the
process of, um, you know, he wasgoing to AA and stuff and, uh,

(06:06):
but he decided that he wasn'tgonna go to work.
This one particular day.
Um, and, um, I remember, um, youknow, parents kinda getting into
it a little bit, and then therewas a comment, it's like, you
know what, you'd be better offdead.
And, um, I went to school andwhen I came back, uh, that's
what happened.
Uh, he took his life.
And so I was 15 years old whenthat happened.

(06:28):
Um, you know, found him in thegarage.
Um, and so, you know, so from a,from an upbringing point of
view, um, you know, that was a,um, a big deal.
But the truth is, is that Ididn't really deal with it like
until I was much older.
Um, I, I don't think I was in,you know, uh, 20, 21 years old
where I actually, um, just kindalike processed that all.

(06:51):
Um, so I'm kind of this, youknow, guy that just like stays
focused going forward.
I remember, um, you know, the,the evening that, uh, my dad,
um, uh, was taken away in the,in the Hearst and, um, the very
next day I went to school.
And, uh, just, just pushingthrough.
Just pushing through.

(07:11):
Um, and, uh, um, uh, there wasa, we, we were in, uh, I think
it was swim class or whatever,and there was this kid that, you
know, always bugged me anyways,right?
I mean, he was just one of theseguys.
And, and, um, and I, I kept mycool, but, but that day I just
felt like, all right, I had anopportunity to just pound on
him.
Uh, when he started messing withme, nobody knew what happened.

(07:33):
You know, I didn't tell anybodywhat happened.
Um, uh, but, uh, he, he was, hewas being himself and, um, I'm
like, Hey, man, this enough isenough.
And so the very next day, I, Ipounded on him, of course.
And, uh, we got, uh, you know,taken outta class and, and then,
you know, then, you know, theprincipal and everybody, you
know, found out what happened.
And so they gave me grace andjust sent me home.

(07:55):
Um, so I think from an up, youknow, bringing point of view,
you know, fairly decent thatthat particular issue kind of
kicked in there.
Um, you know, my mom was then,you know, doing what she had to
do to keep the family going and,um, yeah.
And so that's, that's the,that's the childhood stuff that,
um, you know, were probably themost significant piece.

(08:19):
Yeah.
And now, like when thathappened, how did life change
for you, like moving forward?
I know you mentioned like youjust focused and kept going.
Did, did you ever Yeah.
Uh, uh, like get to that pointwhere you allowed yourself to
grieve?
Or did that happen even likeyears later?
Like, I guess, how did you lifechange?
Oh, later.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, and it's not something thatI'm, you know, I'm, uh, plugging

(08:40):
as a, as a strength.
I mean, it, it was really aweakness.
Yeah.
Uh, that, um, I'm just like, I'mgoing forward.
I ain't processing it.
I remember my aunt at thefuneral saying, cliff just cry.
And I'm like, I'll cry when IDarn well, please.
You know?
Yeah.
Um.
And, uh, but it wasn't until,you know, uh, I think it was
like 20, 21 years old where Iactually just took, um, you

(09:02):
know, so I don't recall what theoccasion was, but, um, uh, but I
do remember specifically, um,letting go.
And, um, and, um, you know, andas I said it, it wasn't that I
had an issue with my dad, youknow, specifically.
I mean, um, so there wasn't nobitterness.
It was just more of a numbnessthat, uh, that occurred.
So, yeah.

(09:22):
Yeah.
I, I, I don't know.
I think as men, it's almost likea survival thing.
Like we gotta like hardenourselves in a sense, like to
keep moving forward, I guess, tobe able to continue to do what
we gotta do.
So, you know, and I've learnedlike that people grieve, did,
uh, did did differently and I'velearned like the different
stages of grief and how some gothrough the whole stages and

(09:43):
some get stuck at one.
But, I believe it's good, like,once we finally get to to grieve
and to, to allow ourselves tofeel.
Because if not that, that be,that could begin to affect us
and, and in all type ofrelationships.
So WW were you able to, to like,uh, graduate high school and,
uh, how, how, how, how does lifelook after that?
Yeah, so, um, I was working, youknow, I, uh, I thought, uh, by

(10:05):
the time I was 16, I knewexactly what I was gonna do.
I, I loved to, to, um, gobowling.
And so I got a job at thebowling alley, uh, became, um,
a, uh, a mechanic there.
I figured, well, that was it,man.
I was gonna, I was gonna be a,you know, a pin setter mechanic
for the rest of my life, youknow, I was good at it.
Um, and by the time I was 19years old, I actually became the

(10:29):
youngest certified Brunswick pinsetter mechanic in Brunswick
history.
And then I'm, I woke.
Then the next day it's justlike, now what?
Like, what do I do now?
Um, and so from there I ended upputting myself through school.
Um, I went to, uh, I went toDeVry down in Chicago and, um,

(10:51):
started learning, you know, howto do, um, you know, computer
repair and, and things likethat.
Uh, so that was, that was my,you know, start of, of the
process didn't go that well.
Um, and it was really the firsttime, um, I grew up in the
suburbs, so, so that was a wholenew, new thing, um, you know,
to, to kind of adapt and, and soforth.

(11:12):
And of course the partying washappening, you know, and, um,
first time on my own, you know,the, the kind of the standard
stuff when you go away, um, and.
And then one day, um, uh, I geta, uh, notice from, uh, the
government that, uh, um, I madetoo much money last year or

(11:33):
whatever at the, at the bowlingalley.
And so we're stopping, you know,uh, the cash that's coming in
for, from social security.
'cause since my dad passed away,I was able to get a little cash,
uh, that was helping me put gothrough school.
And so between that and the factthat I really was failing
school, um, um, I, uh, I, I Ijumped out and, uh, went back

(11:54):
to, to doing some stuff in thebowling business.
Um,'cause that's the only thingI knew what to do.
And, um, and then I met somebodythat was, um, you know, kind of
a mentor.
He was a lot, he was a lot olderthan I was, and he, he worked
on, uh, video games, you know,the arcade games.
Yeah.
Um, and next thing I knew, um, Iwas kind of hanging out with him

(12:18):
a lot more and.
Um, he was kinda showing me somenew stuff and I decided that
this time I was gonna go back toschool and, and do it for real.
But this time I was paying forit.
Totally different man.
When you're paying for it.
And so, so, um, I went to, I putmyself through school and, um,

(12:39):
it took me six years to get, um,till I was done.
And all six years, man, I had, Ihad straight, you know, a 4.0
average man, and I was just likeknocking it outta park and it's
because I was paying for it,right?
I mean, you know, there was no,it was just like.
And, and I also learned how tolearn.

(12:59):
Um, that was one thing that, um,was really revolutionary in my
life is that, you know, I usedto be in a situation where you
would just kinda, you know, waittill the last minute, gut it
out, you know, turn in yourpaperwork, don you know, not
learn anything, you know, stresson all the tests.
And then, um, while I was incollege, very early on, probably
the second week or so, I, Idecided that, wait a second

(13:21):
here.
Why don't I just like, get itdone right after class, let it
kind of gel.
You know, like I'm getting a,you know, now I would use the
words I didn't use in then, but,uh, I'd say, you know, I'd, I'd
get a return onto my investment.
I mean, I'd get interest, youknow, while I'm doing other
things, right?
And, and then, and then I wasn'tstressing anymore every time I

(13:42):
took tests and I'm like, wow, Ilike that a lot better than, you
know, the other way, right?
Yeah.
Um, so, so that was, that's mykinda my education thing.
And that got me out of thebowling business.
Okay, so e education, that's I'msure probably the early twenties
you're going through, throughschool and all this, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
So when, when, when does yourwife come, come into the

(14:03):
picture?
Like, uh, as far as you know?
Yeah, so, um, we got married in88 and, you know, basically we,
we were, we did the, you know,the partying thing, her and I,
and we were, um, just doing ourthing.
And then, um, uh, one day and,and it happened exactly like

(14:23):
this, man.
Uh, and this is before we, wehad a relationship with the
Lord, uh, but, uh, my wifewe're, we're taking the keg back
to the, to the liquor store, um,after a New Year's Eve party
that we had at our home.
And, um, um, I was working forat and t Bell Laboratories in
Naperville at the time.

(14:45):
Um, and so, so we had thislittle house.
It was our first house.
And she goes to me on, on theway back to the liquor store,
she says, you know what?
I don't wanna do this anymore.
And I said, you know what?
I'm thinking the same thing.
See, her dad, um, was also analcoholic.

(15:06):
And so we knew where this pathwas taking us.
I mean, we knew it.
And, and I wouldn't say that Iwas an alcoholic at the time,
but when I drank, man, I didn'tstop.
Just didn't stop.
So, so it wasn't that I wasjonesing, you know, in between,
you know, I was fine, but whenit, when it was, when it was
time, it was time.

(15:26):
And so I just said, yeah, youknow what?
I was thinking the same thing.
And I'm telling you, man, I, I'mtelling you, that was it.
We were done.
And, um, um, it's been now mywife and I have been married 37,
well, it'll be 37 years thisyear.
Um, and so I think it's beenabout 34 years since I've had a
drop of alcohol.

(15:46):
Oh.
Um.
And, and I just made thedecision that I ain't crossing
that line.
Like I'm not putting my toe inthere, I ain't doing it.
You know, and I've convincedmyself that, um, um, you know,
that I have an addictivebehavior and that, uh, once I
put my toe in there, you know,I'm gonna be all in.
And now whether, you know, nowit's 30, you know, plus years

(16:09):
later, whether that's still truetoday or not, doesn't matter.
Ain't going there.
Yeah.
You know, so, so that, that was,that was kind of our, our our
kind of our first couple yearsof just kind of getting to know
each other, figure things out,getting our, getting our world
in order.
Okay.
Now, you, you said that you, youstopped it like on your own.
You just guys decided to do it.

(16:29):
And you mentioned that wasbefore you or encountered the
Lord.
So how, how did you end up cocoming to Faith?
Yeah.
So I would, um, put that into mydrug phase.
Um, you know, my wife startedgetting all these different
ideas, uh, about how she wantsto go to church.
Um, you know, we, we were justhaving a, um, a little one, um,

(16:53):
born or my, my son and that, uh,you know, her upbringing was, is
that, you know, when you havekids, you go to church.
And so, so she was, she knewthat, um, she had to do some
research and find a place that Iwould actually want to attend,
um, versus just, you know, um,drugging me around everywhere.

(17:14):
And, uh, so, um.
Eventually, um, you know, I wentwith her and, uh, eventually she
got baptized.
Um, I was, I was, uh, behindher, you know, um, later on.
Uh, but, but she was the onethat instigated and, you know,
since then, I mean, she's beendrugging me everywhere.
I mean, you know, like, I mean,just having her, you know, she's

(17:38):
taking me on, you know,different things of just saying
she gets this thing in her headand, um, and I'm like, I don't
really want to go, you know, butI'll, I'll go because I love
you.
So, so I says, so that's why Isaid it was, it's, it, that's
when my drug problems started,was when she started going ahead
and, you know, drugging me todifferent places.
Yeah.
Well, you mentioned drugs.
I, I, I thought the story wasgonna go in a whole different
direction, but started drug,drug drugging you everywhere.

(18:01):
Well, that, that, that, that'sawesome.
Now, could I ask you this?
Uh, I, I know you mentionedlike, uh, it was your wife
wanting to, um, go to church.
Now, when you were growing up,like on, on your side of the
family, did faith, uh, play apart at, at all.
No, not really.
I mean, we went to church, butit was really more of like the
church of what's happening now.
So, um, you know, we would goto, you know, Lutheran church or

(18:24):
we'd go to a Mormon church orwe, you know, kind of just
whatever.
So, you know, I think my mom,you know, wanted to do do right
by that.
Um, we went to a Presbyterianchurch, I mean, but, but there
was no connection.
It was just like the thing youdo.
Uh, my dad didn't wanna haveanything to do with it.
Uh, but, but my mom tried tomake some of that happen.

(18:45):
Gotcha.
Okay.
So, okay, so now you're married,you know, uh, uh, it sounds like
you guys were having a kid.
You said a little one.
So obviously you guys, you know,started your family.
So how, how, how does life looklike in, in these years here?
Well, so I, I have two children,um, a boy and a girl, and um,

(19:07):
you know, like she said, westarted going to church and, um,
I started getting very involved.
And, um, you know, one thing ledto another.
I started leading some small,you know, I got involved with
small groups and I, and then mywife and I went to a, uh,
marriage conference.
And, um, and that kind of rockedour world a lot.

(19:29):
I mean, highly recommend, youknow, that, you know, because I
would say our first four yearsreally, you know, really sucked.
I mean, you know, as far aslike, you know, that first four
years was, was, was, you know,very rocky.
And then, you know, the Lordcame into our life, uh, kind of
became the mediator of, ofthings.
And, um, and then we startedreally thriving.

(19:49):
Um, so, you know, small groups.
I remember my small group, tti,you know, we, we actually, you
know, uh, one of the guys inour, our small group had the
keys to the church.
And, you know, we went out thatnight and baptized me.
I mean, you know, it, it, it wascool.
Um.
And yeah, one thing led toanother.

(20:11):
I got more involved with, uh,with church and, and, uh, um, I
was still, I was still working,um, the corporate job and, you
know, it was one of those jobsthat I thought was like, you
know, like I made it, you know,just same thing with like the
bowling business right now.
I got this, I got this gig, um,with at t and it's like I made

(20:32):
it.
Um, but after six years, I, um,um, I, I should say earlier than
that, I got to a place where Ireally didn't enjoy it, you
know, and I really wanted tostart my own business.
That was really what I wanted todo.
Um, and so, you know, I woulddabble and start this and start

(20:54):
that.
And, um, didn't really have agood plan.
I just was trying differentthings.
And one day I was, um, uh,driving into work.
And I, I'm just reaching out tothe Lord, you know?
I'm saying, Lord, you know, um,what's going on?
Like, what's wrong with me?

(21:14):
You know, you know, I, I'mseeing my, my brothers, you
know, falling in love with you.
I'm just kinda like, just, youknow, going through the motions.
I'm getting intelligent, youknow, in the word, but that's,
you know, but it's not hittingmy heart.
Um, you know, what's going onhere?
And, and then of course, youknow, you get to this place
where it's like, man, just showme a sign or something.
Not that I didn't believe, but Ididn't believe, you know, I

(21:34):
mean, I believe, but I didn'tbelieve, right.
You know, as, um, as Paul says,you know, and, and so I pull
into, uh, I'm, I getting realemotional as I'm pulling into
the parking lot.
I mean, I'm, I'm like, I'mliterally, you know, you know,
bawling and I'm, I, I pull intothe parking lot and I look off

(21:54):
to my left side and about 10feet away, there's like this.
Thing over there where it'slike, you know, I can't make it
out.
You know?
Is it, is it, is it like, youknow, the burning bush?
I don't know.
But I mean, it's something I've,I've never seen before and it's
only like 10 feet away.
And I look at it and I'm like,what the, get the keys outta the

(22:16):
car, get my stuff, get out ofthe car, slam the door, clean my
face off, and I go walk rightinto, into work.
And that whole day I'm like, youknow what Cliff?
You asked the Lord, you yelledout to the Lord to say, Hey, you
know, just show me something.
You know, show me, you know, a,a connection.

(22:38):
There was something, you don'tknow what it was.
I mean, it could have been asprinkler head busted.
You don't know, right?
But you couldn't walk 10 feet tofind out about the creator of
the universe being like rightthere.
And that, that changedeverything, man.
That changed everything becauseit's like, you know, what are
you looking for?
You're just looking for the nextbest thing.
Right.
What happens when you see God?
What's gonna be better afterthat?

(22:59):
You know, you just keep onlooking for it.
And, um, so I, I made a decisionright then and there, um, that I
already found the truth.
I just had to walk it.
And, um, and so a little bitmore time went on and I found
myself, um, uh, still thinkingabout entrepreneurship and

(23:20):
starting a business and, uh,once again, reaching out and
praying to the Lord.
And I get a phone call the nextday, and it was pretty much the
next day, the way I remember it,and it's our pastor at our
church and he is like, Hey,cliff man, you wanna do some
lunch, man, I, I'd like to sitdown and talk to you.
I'm like, sure.

(23:40):
So we sit down there and heoffers me a job.
Like, and I'm like, well, hey, Iasked, you know, for the Lord to
show me, you know, my purposesover well.
Hello.
I mean, if it's a pastor calland it must be it.
I mean, it just must be itright.
And, and so at the time our,our, our church was, uh, meeting
at a high school and we weregrowing, uh, growing really fast

(24:02):
and they needed somebody tokinda like, get things under
control.
Um, and so they see, they saw meas a kind of a discipline guy.
And, um, so I started, you know,doing what I do.
And, um, one of the things thatwas happening on a regular basis

(24:22):
that I noticed was, is that thephone, the phone would ring.
Now this is in the nineties.
Okay.
So, um, you know, the technologyof course is different then.
And, um, the phone would ringand the person on the other end
would be like, I need to talk tothe pastor right now.
I, I mean, you know, my hair'son fire.
I need to talk to him like rightnow.

(24:43):
And we'd be like, what's yourname?
You know Tom Jones.
Okay.
Tom Jones.
Pastor call and we'd put it on apost-it note along like 10 or 15
other post-it notes that'd say,you know, call, you know, you
know Sandy Jane and, and TimBuck too.
And you couldn't tell anyurgency at all.

(25:05):
And then the, then the pastorwould get there and he would
just be like, he's just got abunch of post-it notes on his,
on his desk.
And meanwhile, all these peopleare getting hurt and upset
because nobody's returned hiscall in a timely manner because
there was no understanding ofurgency.
And so I decided in my, uh, my,uh, uh, role as director of

(25:27):
administration is what I was,and I was still working for at
and t by the way.
Okay.
Um, this, so this was just kindof a part-time gig.
And, um, I'm like, you knowwhat?
I have some software skills.
I'm gonna develop a voicemailsystem.
This was revolutionary at thetime.
Uh, probably not revolutionary,but it was certainly new.

(25:48):
And, um, and so I got a littlePC computer and, um, hooked up a
couple phone lines and whenpeople would call, they would,
you know, have an opportunity toleave a voicemail message for
the pastor.
The pastor just thought, oh,this is amazing, man.
It is a God thing, right?
And he would be able to hear,you know, pastor, you gotta call

(26:08):
me right now, man, I need youright now.
And he would be able to go aheadand do what he needed to do.
And that was, um, the epiphanythat I had to start my own
business.
And I, um, after six years, Istepped out and resigned.
Um, from at and t.
Everybody thought I was nuts.

(26:30):
Um, I went from a good, great,actually a great paying job to
zero.
And, um, and I started mycompany in 1995.
Um, and, and I started byproviding voicemail.
Two people that live on theroad, that live in tr that, uh,
drive trucks and live in RVs.
Um, and I don't know if youremember back then, but there

(26:54):
was a, an, uh, there was a phonecompany called MCI at the time
and they, they would have, theyhad this friends and family plan
and I plagiarized their, theirslogan and I'd say, you know,
connect with your friends andfamily.
Um, and, and so here's somebodydriving a truck, for example,
and he is, you know, on his wayto Kansas City and he might say
something like, you know,leaving a message, Hey, I won't

(27:16):
be, uh, you know, I won't beable to get my messages until
Wednesday.
I'll be in Kansas City, but uh,you know, let me know what's,
you know, what's going on.
And then people would leave, youknow, leave a message, you know,
whether it be I love you, orHey, call me as soon as you get
this.
And that was the way theycommunicated.
'cause cell phones weren't, youknow, anywhere outside of the,
uh, um, you know, the city.
Right.
And, and that, that, um, that'sbasically, um, I ended up

(27:41):
resigning the church because.
Truthfully, I, I hated workingwith volunteers, man.
They were, they were, they were,they did not meet my, you know,
like, like, you know, just dowhat you say you're gonna do.
And they're like, Hey, I'm avolunteer man, you know, I'll,
I'll show up if I wanna show up.
Right?
And so that drove me crazy.
Um, so eventually, you know, I,I didn't have a job.

(28:02):
I started this company outta mybasement.
And, um, and then, you know,over time, I mean, you know, I
put my kids through college and,uh, we hired, um, we had, I
think at the highest we probablyhad 40 employees.
Wow.
Um, I took, I took itinternational in 2007.
Um, and yeah, so anyways, thatwas a lot of talk, so, oh, no,

(28:26):
that's great.
I mean, I mean, that's, that'samazing how you ask for a sign
and then they led you to thepastor calling you and you
thought, man, I'm just gonna bevolunteering.
But all, all hearing all thosecalls and it give you that idea
that, that, that's amazing how,how things happen Sometimes it
could be something so simple as,like you said, the post-it notes
and then the, the mind going andman, and led you to create

(28:47):
something that led you to starta business.
That, that, that's amazing.
So, okay.
So thanks man.
Yeah.
So, okay.
So, so now you're a, a, youknow, a successful business.
I know you mentioned puttingyour kids through college.
How, how did you end up gettinginto prison ministry?
How did you end up with freedomfrom, wi within?
Um, so back to my drug problem.

(29:10):
My wife in 2004, uh, decidesthat she wants to go on a
missions trip and she's gonnatake my kids.
And I'm like, I don't want togo.
And she is like, well, I'm goinganyways.
And she wanted to go to thePhilippines, and I'm like, I

(29:30):
don't want to go.
I got things to do here.
So eventually, you know, shewins the argument.
I said, all right, I'm gonna gothere.
I'm gonna protect you.
That's, that's why I'm going,you know, protect you and the
kids.
And I end up in the Philippines.
And for the first three days,it's like, man, it's hot here.
It smells different here.

(29:51):
I mean, it's, you know, youknow, it is just, I mean, the
sun is like right here all thetime.
It's a 13 hour time difference,you know?
So there's this whole, you know,thing going on.
And then, um, one day, um, andwe were serving, we were doing
different things.
One day we went to the garbagedump and um, I ran into this kid

(30:15):
that lives there.
And so I put on my Americano andI'm like, you know, hey man, you
know, how you doing?
You know, I'm being translated,and I find out that he's getting
married.
And I'm like, whoa.
Wow.
That's awesome.
Congratulations, man.
You know?
And, uh, I, I said, what are youdreaming about?
You know, now that you'regetting married?
And he's like, he looks at meand he is like, what are you

(30:38):
talking about?
What am I dreaming about, man?
I live in a garbage dump.
And, um, I said, oh, come onman.
I mean, there's something yougotta be, you're getting
married, man.
He is like, listen, my parentsgrew up here.
I got raised here.
I'm getting married here and mykids are gonna be here as well.
And, and so I saw what I knewintellectually was I saw

(31:01):
something with no hope.
Like, no hope.
He had no hope at all until hegot to a place where he talks
about, you know, how hesurvives.
And, um, he talk, he talkedabout how he finds high quality
paper and he's able to turn.
He, he says he is kind ofcreative and he is able to take
this into and turn it into art.

(31:21):
And that's how he would, that'show he would survive.
He would sell that in themarketplace.
And so I'm Dr.
Um, we're flying home and I'mtrying to figure out, all right,
Lord, was this just anadventure?
You know, am I supposed to justdo these things for a feel good
or, or do you want me to dosomething?
Well, the other thing thathappened was, is that I went to

(31:42):
a county jail, or, or, uh,actually a city jail while I was
there and I was asked to speak.
Um, and that was kind of cool.
Uh, never been in a, into a jailbefore.
And once again, it's like, youknow, ridiculous.
There, it's like 110 degrees.
I mean, it's just crazy.
Um, and they put like 40 guysinto a cell with like 15 beds

(32:08):
and, you know, it's not ademocratic process in there, you
know?
I mean, um, and of course we'rethe visitors, so we only get to
see.
The good stuff, right?
I mean, who knows what's behindthe wall, man.
I mean, who knows what's goingon there?
And so, so that I had thatexperience, but back on the
airplane, I'm just like, Lord,what do you want me to do?

(32:30):
And, and, uh, I'm like, you knowwhat?
I know I can just write a checkand I'll just fix the problem.
And, and I felt like the Lord'ssaying, well, yeah, that's just
kind of a means to an end.
And I'm like, yeah, but I know alot of people, maybe I could
have them write checks and thenwe could just fix the problem
because, uh, we were alsogetting, helping kids get off
the street and stuff.
And, um, and it's like, no,that's just prolonging it, man.

(32:53):
You know, I, I created you to dostuff, you know, a certain way.
And, and so I'm like, you knowwhat?
You know what I do?
I start things from nothing.
That's what I do.
I'm an entrepreneur.
And so I decided that I wasgonna start a company in the
Philippines where 100% of theprofits.
Underwrite the things that I'mconcerned about.

(33:13):
So getting kids off the street,getting them into education.
And so we, and, and the church,so we, so the business
underwrote, um, uh, a church outthere, um, did a, a k through, I
think it was, uh, at the time, Kthrough eight, um, grade school.
And, and, um, and then we had anorphanage, what they call a

(33:36):
refuge center.
And we'd get kids off the streetand we hire people and 100% of
the profits, like everythingjust went towards that the
employees were involved with.
Um, you know, like once a month,um, we would just shut down and
we, and we'd go, you know, feedkids and things like that.
And that required me to travelback and forth to the

(33:56):
Philippines a lot.
So I hated going.
Next thing you know, I'm goingseveral times a year and um, and
every time I went, I'd go to thejail.
Hmm.
It is like, Hey, you know, youknow, we're, we're gonna do some
business stuff here, but youknow, I'd love to be able to go
ahead and, you know, do someministry stuff.

(34:17):
And so we go to the jail andevery time we went year after
year after year, there was thisone guy, he was my translator,
and he was there, and I'd belike, yes, he's there.
You know, like people arelaughing at my jokes.
He's so good, right?
I mean, is he just really good?
And, and so I look forward tohim being there until one day,

(34:42):
several years later, I'm like,cliff, why are you excited that
this guy's still in jail?
And I'm like, well, because heis really good, you know?
And, um, you know, I feelcomfortable being able to, you
know, to share my message and,um, well, why don't you, why
don't you like care about himfor, for a second?

(35:06):
And so I asked the obvious,right?
All your listeners are like,yeah, man, what a selfish SOB,
right?
Um, but um, I decided to just,Hey man, like why are you still
here?
And he is like, well, you know,in the Philippines.
And this guy is like highlyrespected.
Like he's one of those guys, youknow, like, you know, everybody

(35:26):
knows him and, and great guy.
He is like in the Philippines,you know, if you can't pay your
fine, it's kinda like a lifesentence.
And I'm like, well, how much isyour fine man?
He is like, it'll just be like500 us.
And I'm like, dude, he's been inthis year after year and I'm,
I'm thinking like four years bythis time, you know that I knew

(35:48):
him four or five years for 500bucks.
And so I got connected with thepeople that I was connected with
out there, and I, I said, um,all right, let's, let's take
care of that.
Let's get, let's set him up witha job.
We don't want to, you know, gethim, you know, set him up for
failure.
Um, in housing.

(36:11):
This guy was highly respectedand, um, he gets out, he's doing
the job, I'm hearing he is doingfine, you know, through the
grapevine.
And then one day, six monthslater, I find out he takes his
life, he killed himself to findout that the world around him

(36:32):
kept on saying, remembering thatguy that they used to know and
they were getting into his headand he, he no longer had, his
identity was no longer the guy,you know, that had it all
together, but he was the guythat was the screw up from
something.
I don't even know what he did inhis past.
Right.

(36:52):
Okay.
But they kept on reminding methat, you know, you're not all
that man.
And so I realized just gettingsomebody a job they don't have,
if they're not ready.
And that, and it's gotta beworse than, than hanging out in

(37:15):
prison.
I mean, if you're not ready,it's hard.
I mean, you know, you, you madethe transition.
It's hard.
Um, but at the time, I just knewthat this happened.
I felt like he was set up forsuccess, all right.
But I didn't get, I didn't gethim right.
Yeah.
Like he wasn't right yet, eventhough on the outside, you know,

(37:35):
the outside of the cup.
Right.
You know, um, that was all cleanand shiny, but the inside of the
cup, as Jesus would say, wasn'ttaken care of.
So I'm still not thinking prisonministry.
But then I get a, uh, um, a callto, to teach guys at the Dixon

(37:57):
Correctional Center, um, to do abusiness workshop.
This is in 2013.
Okay.
So 2007 is when I incorporatedthe, the, the company, um, in
the Philippines.
I am busy.
I'm real busy still.
Um, I'm, I'm learning this thingcalled Kingdom Business.

(38:17):
So basically it is just, youknow, being in the marketplace,
knowing the marketplace has alot of influence, you know, uh,
more than a church because, youknow, because you know, you're
with somebody for 40 hours aweek versus the, you know,
church is one or two hours aweek, right?
And so business has, is verypowerful for the gospel.

(38:39):
And so I was just reallystarting to think more about.
About how can we make kingdombusiness a thing?
So I was kind of busy doingthat.
And then out of the blue I getinvited to Dixon Correctional
Center to teach, you know,business.
And, um, I'm like, sure.
So we went out there, my wifewent with me, and it's the first

(39:02):
time ever in a state prison.
I only knew the, the city jailand, you know, and, and you
were, were you in Dixon?
No.
You weren't in Dixon, right?
No, no, I wasn't.
Yeah.
Okay.
Um, and so, you know, that'swhere I met Ronnie and, and so
forth later on.
Um, but anyways, I give thisworkshop, it's like a hour and a

(39:25):
half, two hour workshop.
And it went really, really well.
And I'm getting calls afterwardslike, Hey, can you do this, like
on a weekly basis?
And I'm like, hello, I'm busy.
I got other things to do.
Well, you know, really cool.
These guys really wanna learnbusiness.
They really wanna learn stuff.
And, um, I was kicking andscreaming on that one.

(39:45):
My wife's like, well, have youprayed about it?
And I'm like, no, I've beenbusy.
You know?
Um, and so, so I spent some timepraying about it and I, I came
back and I said, no, this willbe a complete waste of my time.
And they're like, why?
What, what, what do you need tomake it worth your time?
And I said, well, if I'm gonnainvest in, in people, I'm not

(40:09):
going to just teach'em somethingthat anybody could teach'em.
I said, I could teach peoplebusiness skills like a profit
and a loss statement and amarketing plan, you know, and,
and, um, and, and just be ableto, to think about running an
organization.
You know, when things get tough,when people tell you you're an

(40:31):
idiot for going into business,and you said, and you believe in
it.
I mean, think about it.
You, you're dreaming aboutsomething for years, right?
You got this business idea, andthen some knucklehead comes
around, listens to your idea,and like in 30 seconds he tells
you it's a stupid idea.

(40:51):
And most people believe thatknucklehead, and they don't even
know, right?
I mean, and usually the personthat's got the loudest voice is
the, is the person that's brokeor never did the business thing
anyways, right?
But yet it's a character issueto decide whether you're going
to kill three years or fiveyears of dreaming.
Uh, because somebody's like,man, this is the dumbest thing

(41:12):
ever.
And so I told'em, no, that'd bea waste of time.
They're like, well, think about,you know, if you were to do it,
like if you had anything youneeded, what would you do?
And so I ended up, uh,connecting with, um.
Um, one of my business partners,um, he's, he's a gifted writer

(41:33):
and another guy who's a knownauthor, um, his name is Dr.
Ron Jensen, and he is writtenmany, many books.
Um, and we started justbrainstorming what would it look
like?
And, um, we decided, well, stepone is you need to get this
right, like your foundationalself.

(41:56):
And, um, and then step two is,you know, how do you lead
yourself as an influentialleader?
As a leader, you're taking thelead and, and that you have
influence whether you like it ornot.
Um, and do you respect, youknow, what you're communicating.
The third one's called thrivingteams.
Thriving teams is how you work,you know, in teams.
And the fourth one is calledorganizational integrity.

(42:18):
And, um, uh, that's reallypreparing to be an entrepreneur
or an intrapreneur.
And so we created that and, um,we wrote four books.
We started going into DixonCorrectional Center, um, a
couple years later.
And, at one point we had, um,10% of the population in our

(42:40):
programs that we'd have 50, 60guys in our, in our classes and,
um, uh, in one class, but atotal little over 200, you know,
um, um, over like two and a halfdays.
We, we, we, I mean it startedexpanding and growing and we had
all four classes going at thesame time.
Uh,'cause you have to take thefirst one to get to the second

(43:01):
one and so forth.
So we had, you know, it was allstaggered over time and um, um,
and then in 2018, I stepped downas the CEO of the Philippines
Corporation and I gave thecompany to the employees.
Uh, that worked there.
Um, I didn't tell you this, but,uh, the first four employees

(43:23):
that we hired, um, they camefrom the community of a 350,000
people.
And we said, you know, if you'reinterested in learning that
something new, uh, we'll teachyou.
We're not gonna pay you for it,but we'll teach you.
And 12 people, uh, came out todo that, hung out with us for
several weeks.
Uh, I think it was like sixweeks and, um, four remained and

(43:45):
they were the first four.
Um, but in 2017, in December of2017, we had about 40, uh,
employees then.
And, um, and I just knew that Iwas gonna go full-time in prison
ministry.
And, um, and so I, I steppeddown and I gave them the
company.
Like I gave them the company,um, which is good'cause the

(44:07):
Americano was getting in the wayanyways.
And now they, now they got likea hundred people there and, and
they're just, they're justknocking outta the park.
Um, the next month I steppeddown for my, uh, domestic
company here.
Um, and um, and I start and, andI, um, started a company, I
started a nonprofit calledFreedom From Within.

(44:28):
And, uh, we became full-timeprison ministry.
And, um, and during that time,in any given week, we would have
300 to 350 students a week, um,across five different prisons,
um, at the time.
And, we were only bound by, youknow, the clock, so there's only
so many hours in the day.

(44:49):
So, so that's it, man.
I mean, man, that's, that,that's amazing.
Like the whole journey from,from the Philippines to back and
now doing this.
And, you know, I'm, I'm real biginto this word transformation.
I am not a big inspiration guy.
Like, inspiration only lasts acouple of days.

(45:09):
Yeah.
And I'm like, we're not, we'renot playing that game.
And, um, uh, if you were in myfirst class, the talking points
you would hear me say is, isthat we only have one
requirement in this class.
And, um, and I'm like, if youcan meet this one requirement,
okay, then you're good.
But if you can't, then you don'tbelong in this class.

(45:33):
And the one requirement is thatif you want to want to, like, if
you want to want to be here, youmeet the requirement.
But if you don't want to want tobe in this class, everybody
loses.
You lose the people around.
You lose, all right.
You're welcome to come back whenyou want to want to.
But, you know, and um, and thatwas always our, our number one
requirement.

(45:54):
And, and, and it really comesback to my early days of running
my domestic company and sayingthat if you don't want to want
to be here, you know, I don'tcare how good you are, man.
If you're gonna bring sometoxicity to the, to the culture
of the company, I don't wantyou.
So, alright.
I I know you, you got fourbooks.

(46:15):
Uh, as far as time-wise, uh,like let, let's say for instance
like a medium max, obviously yougot more time with the guys.
Uh, how long is, is each uh,course?
So generically, um, it's, it iscarved out to be 16 weeks each
course.
Alright, so, so 64 weeks if youwill, you know, from start to

(46:36):
finish.
And like, so today, for example,uh, today, uh, we had, um, three
graduations.
Um, we had two classes inSheridan graduate, and then we
went over to, um, uh, LaSalleCounty Jail and graduated
another class there.
Um, the LaSalle County Jail, uh,we did that class in seven

(46:58):
weeks.
Uh, but uh, we met with themtwice a week.
Uh, whereas in Sheridan it was aonce a week class and that, and,
and that took basically 16weeks.
Um, so based off of the needsand so forth, we wanted to make
sure that, um, you know, we'reeffective and that the, um, uh,
people could get the informationrather than just getting halfway

(47:20):
through and, and then being, youknow, um, transferred or, or go
home, so.
You know, we have all sorts ofpeople that come, you know, into
our classes, all differentideologies and belief systems.
Um, we say that, you know, it's,it's your truth, whatever your
truth is, okay?
And we're not here to, um,convince you that my truth is

(47:45):
the truth, but I'm not going totolerate you, um, not letting me
be me.
And that thereby you can be you.
Um, so, you know, like we hadseveral, several Muslims, you
know, graduate today, right?
Um, I have, uh, you know,stacked this high of, of all the
feedback, you know, that we getafter a class, you know, and,

(48:08):
um, you know, his, his commentswere too much religion.
Um, and then everything else waslike, this is the best thing
ever and blah, blah, blah.
And it transformed my life and,and, and so on and so forth,
right?
Um, but having it do you knowwhat you believe in and is it
evident in your life?
That's the, that's the numberone.

(48:28):
Are you feeding your, your mindwith stuff that's lifting you up
or tearing you down?
You know, if you're listening tosome rap music, uh, talking
about how the world's alwaysburning down and everybody's
your enemy, it's probably notgoing to, it's gonna impact the
way you see the world.
But, um, we have a couple ofcore verses that we just carry

(48:51):
through everything, and one ofthem is Ephesians two 10.
And Ephesians two 10 says thatyou are, God's masterpiece
created a new in Christ Jesusfor the good things that were
planned long ago.
And when you tell a guy that'sbeen incarcerated that he's a
one of a kind masterpiece, thatthere never was and there never
will be again.

(49:11):
And that he's highly valued.
God didn't screw up when hecreated you, and that there's an
option to be anew.
There's an option and, and, and,and, and the J word, you know,
might bother you, you know, butthere's an option, okay, for the

(49:32):
good things that were plannedlong ago, are you on that plan?
You know, that's what we talkabout.
Are you on the plan?
So we really hit that home.
Um, we, you know, we talk aboutbuilding your house on a rock
versus sand, and, and we make itknown that, you know, how common

(49:56):
it is for people to build theirhouse on sand, even though it,
it sounds really stupid, but wedo it all the time.
You know, procrastination,location, location, location.
You know, blame it on the storm.
Who took, you know, who, howcome nobody told me the storm
was coming, you know, or I wasgonna get to it.

(50:18):
So we really focus on that.
But, but we need to know whereyour truth is, what your truth
source is.
Is it, is it highly reliable?
Is it historically accurate?
Does it serve you well?
You know, if, if, if, if you'reworshiping some idol, okay, it
is what it is.
All right?
It doesn't make sense to me.

(50:39):
And if it's serving your well,cool man.
Is it evident in your life?
I'm believing it probably isn't.
Okay, but who am I to go aheadand demean this guy?
Um, and, and, and we know, weknow that when they come up with
their, like, when they takeownership of, of, of that, that
aha moment, that epiphany,that's way more powerful than me

(51:01):
talking'em into.
Yeah.
And so, so we, we, we seeatheist, you know, I've seen,
I've, I've seen an atheist, um,who I had a lot of respect for,
man.
I mean, he, you know, he didn'tget offended by the, you know,
the J word or anything like thatbecause, you know, guy doesn't
exist.
Right.

(51:22):
And during the Shark Tank he'spitching.
So all this time going by, infact, I think COVID was like in
the middle of it.
So like a ton of time went byand he won third place.
And he said, I thank God forthis opportunity, but it took

(51:42):
all that time, right?
And the Lord told me a long timeago walking in Dixon, you know,
that, um, I don't own the day orthe hour that they're gonna have
the revelation.
Amen.
And that he only called ourministry to show up.

(52:03):
Our job is just to show up and,and bring our A game.
And then, and that's it.
Just love on people.
Bring your a game, love onpeople, bring your a game.
And when that stuff happens, ithappens.
And that's gonna, and that'scalled transformation.
And we're not playing games.
And that's why 97% of all of ourgraduates that have gone home,

(52:24):
97% of every graduate that hasgone home is still in the world
today.
Amen.
That's amazing.
Right?
Yeah.
Well, and it pisses me off,right?
Because it should be zero.
Yeah.
Like, it should be zero.
But you know, we have a handfulthat, um, whatever happened.
Yeah.
And, um, and people would say,cliff, why should it be zero?
You know, that's, that'sunrealistic.

(52:45):
And I'm like, as far as I'mconcerned, nobody's ever tried.
You know, every one, everysingle person is a one of a kind
masterpiece.
And every single person there,all right, can be a new, like,
they can take the old man, putthe new man on, alright.
Every single person, you know,there's good things planned.
You just have to be willing todo it.
You have to be, you know,surround yourself with people

(53:07):
like my wife who, who, who, whodrug you to different places.
Um, you know, and just say, allright, honey, I love you.
I don't really want to go, butI'm gonna do it anyways and get,
get you in position for thethings that you never thought
imaginable.
And so I'm in prison a lotbecause I saw diamonds in the

(53:31):
rough everywhere, and I just sawthe potential everywhere.
And, um, and, and, and so I hadto look at what do I do good at?
It's being able to see theirpotential and unleash the
masterpiece that's inside ofthem.

(53:51):
And then I watch'em freak outbecause they're just like blown
away.
I mean, they're just blown away.
And, and there's nothing betterthan that.
Amen.
And, and, and I'm sure for a lotof these men, this is probably
like one of the first time thatthey have a man, like speak life
into'em.
And like you mentioned, tobelieve in them, to believe that
there is like potential and thatthere's more to them than maybe

(54:12):
what people have spoken over'em.
And I'm sure a lot of'em ismostly like the, the bad, you
know, like growing up, I, youknow, like all these, all these
names that you get called thatobviously are, are now what God
created us to be.
And then to have a man to speaklife and to believe, and then,
but most importantly, to getthem to believe.
'cause once they, they believethat man, that's when they're

(54:34):
probably OO off and running,right?
Yeah.
It is all of a sudden phonecalls, you know, the tone is
different, you know, ratherthan, Hey, you know, did you,
did you put money in my account?
It's like, Hey, how was your daytoday, honey?
And she's like, what whatchatalking about?
Right?
It used to be about the kids,right?

(54:54):
And now it's like about, youknow, tell me about your day.
And, and, and they're talkingabout our class or, or whatever.
They're talking about meaningfulstuff.
And, and, and next thing youknow, they're, they're actually
doing the foundations for lifetogether and the relationship
is, is going to a whole notherlevel.
Um, we have testimony aftertestimony of, you know, you
know, father, daughter, youknow, reconciliations and so on

(55:17):
and so forth over time.
Um, so, and you know, you seethe, um, mean we have stories
after stories, after stories ofcourse.
And, um.
We've had several that havedone, you know, decades of time
to be fully exonerated.
Um, you know, I'm thinking ofthree right now that, um, let's

(55:41):
see, 23 years, 29 years, and 35years, and all of them were rock
stars in our program.
Like all of'em, all of'em justinvested in other people.
You know, it took decades to getreconciled, but now you know
what, they're, they're livinglife.
They're knocking it out a parkand they're ready because, you

(56:02):
know, you know, just as, asanyone, the system could have
really broke, broke them.
Yeah.
And so they might have came in,you know, one way, but I, us,
you know, if, if they're nottaking care of themselves and,
and growing, um, you know, thesystem's gonna just tear him
apart.
I mean, you know, I I Paulie'stestimony on your podcast a

(56:23):
couple episodes ago, right.
I mean, he has every right to bejust a, you know, a mess.
Yeah.
Like a total mess.
Right.
But, but you know, God got aholdof him.
And, um, you know, and, andstory continues.
Mm-hmm.
So, um, so we just want to, wejust want to create light into a

(56:44):
dark place because, uh, thedarkness is just trying to eat
these guys alive.
How, how many prisons are youguys in and how, how, how does
your team look?
How, how many people do youhave?
W Yeah, so, um, we have a lot ofvolunteers on the outside.
Prison ministry is verydifficult to, um, multiply and,

(57:08):
um.
So for the longest time I'mlike, man, we got the best
product, man.
I mean, you know, testimonyafter testimony, we should be
like everywhere.
Um, all these, um, you can't see'em, but I mean, I got the stack
of feedback forms I justreceived today.
I mean, they're all like, youknow, this should be everywhere
and so forth and praise God.
And, and, and we're verythankful for that.

(57:30):
But prison ministries don'tscale very well and, um, not,
let not.
Um, and so, so I've been tryingsince 2018 to grow the ministry,
um, and make it go wider.
Um, but I didn't wanna sacrificethe depth of what we do and so I
didn't want to go wide andsacrifice the depth and get out

(57:51):
of the transformation business.
So, um, so the answer to yourquestion is we've been, you
know, up and down the state ofIllinois.
Um, uh, Menard and we go toVendel.
I know you Valia is a Yeah.
Um, a place you're familiarwith.
Um, at any given time.
We've got like 150 guys on thewaiting list in Valia.
That, and, and we go thereseveral times a year and we do

(58:13):
a, a weekend workshop.
Um, you know, Stateville, whenit was open, we'd go there, but
to answer your question, rightnow we are just, we're in three
locations.
Um, and I've, I've made adecision, uh, recently, uh, that
the best way to multiply what wedo is to digitize our material

(58:35):
and, um, uh, get it on thetablets that these guys have.
Um, so we've been approved, um,to, um, to put our mat our
classes on the tablets and um,come July.
I'll be able to tell you thatwe're in thousands of prisons.
Wow.
Um, reaching.
Amen.
Um, a population of 1.1 millionpeople, over 50% of the

(59:01):
incarcerated population will bereached on this particular
platform.
And, um, while in person, youknow, is obviously the best way
to build relationship and, andand so forth, um, but when you
compare it to zero, you know,um, then you know we gotta do

(59:22):
something right.
And so I'm, I'm, I'm designingthe.
The, uh, electronic version tobe just like, uh, as best as I
can, a live class where, um,there's a, my, my talking
points, uh, we do this thingcalled learn, apply and engage.
Um, so we, we learn stuff andthen we apply it.

(59:44):
What do we, what does it have todo with our life?
And then we engage in smallgroups.
We give it life.
And, and you know, what happensis the, the world likes to learn
stuff and engage people, butthey skip the apply state, so
they never get any of thebenefits.
And so I'm trying to replicatein a, on a tablet, um, through
video, um, in interactivequestions and even a, an engage,

(01:00:08):
an engaging experience.
And, um, you know, versionnumber one.
Okay.
I mean, I need to get it outthere.
Version number two is gonna bebetter as technology gets better
and so forth.
Uh, but we see that, um.
We're believing that, ourministry is going to grow
exponentially.
Um, and my, you ever heard of aterm called B hg?

(01:00:30):
B hg Yeah.
No stands for big hairyaudacious goal.
And my, my big hairy audaciousgoal, okay, is to hire my
graduates when they get out andteach them computer skills that
can help us create more digitalcontent.

(01:00:52):
That's, that speaks thelanguage, right?
If you notice, I don't speak thelanguage, you know?
Um, but to have more, you know,relevant people that actually,
um, can speak the language alittle bit better than me and
still bring the goods, um, andbe able to, you know, have a,

(01:01:12):
um, a job that is actuallycreating those goods.
That's my big, very audaciousgoal.
And, and, and I, and I see thatthat's an opportunity.
I mean, there's very few, ifany, prison ministries that are
state or nationwide, you know, Imean, they might have a pocket
here and a pocket there.
Yeah.
But they're not hitting all 2million people that are

(01:01:34):
incarcerated.
And, and so here we're gonna hit1.1 million.
Amen.
At least it's gonna be availableto them.
Right.
And so I'd like to be able tosay, be on your podcast someday
and say we have a hundredthousand in our, you know, that
we're reaching every day.
Amen.
Right.
Or 200,000.
Um, and it, and ittransformation's happening and

(01:01:55):
our communities are changing.
You know, I mean, when thistransforms and then it
transforms your family and thenit transforms your community.
Next thing you know, yournation's commu, you know, is
transforming.
Yes.
And it's very common for mystudents to say, you know what?
I want to go ahead and reach theyouth.
I wanna make a difference in my,my community.
I wanna do this stuff.

(01:02:16):
Right.
Well, here we go.
We're, we're gonna give you thetools and we're gonna encourage
you to engage with others.
You know, maybe you all havetablets and you get on the deck
and you start talking aboutmeaningful stuff.
Like you mentioned, uh, I think1.1 million and even more God
willing, you know, in due time.
Yeah.
The state of Illinois justsigned a deal with this, this

(01:02:36):
group that we're part of.
And, so two months ago, wewouldn't have been in Illinois.
All right.
But, uh, state of Illinoisfinally did it.
And so there's another 30,000,you know, right into the mix,
right.
Nice.
So nice.
Now, where, where can people goto hear about this, uh, freedom
from within?
Uh, you could share, you know,like a website and anything else
you got going.
And another thing too that I'vebeen listening to is your, your,

(01:02:58):
uh, podcast.
I believe you started it duringthe pandemic.
So I went back and I listened tomaybe I think like five
episodes.
Oh, wow.
You know, from the beginning.
Yeah.
So I, I got to hear, I believeyou started it because you
weren't able to go into theprisons back then, but yeah, if
you could share website,podcasts, ev everything else
that, that you guys have.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So our podcasts have been kindof hot, hot and cold.

(01:03:19):
Um, so, really as far as justconnecting with us, um, freedom
from within.org is our website.
You can connect to ournewsletter.
If, if this is something thatyou're interested in doing, you
know, as a nonprofit, uh, we are100% funded, uh, by private
donations.
We don't do any grants oranything like that.

(01:03:40):
Um, and so, you know, if, if, ifthere's people that you know,
believe in what we're doing,that's a great place to get
connected, find out what we'redoing, uh, and help us move this
mission, um, uh, forward.
Um, I'm not real big on thesocial media stuff, you know,
part of it is, is that, youknow, when you're in prison
ministry, you know, the, theDepartment of Corrections kinda

(01:04:02):
locks you down on what you canshare and what you can't share,
um, um, and then those that, uh,uh, wanna take it to the next
level, they financially supportus as well.
Got it.
Okay.
No, yeah.
Thanks for, for sharing outthat.
Now, uh, a any, any final words,anything that maybe we didn't
get a chance to talk about?
And then if you could close usout in a prayer as we get ready
to, to, to wrap up.

(01:04:24):
So yeah, I'll just, uh, I'lljust, uh, uh, praise out and,
um, you know, just, uh, yeah,thank, thanks for, uh, the
opportunity to be able to share.
Amen.
So.
Heavenly Father, Lord, we'rejust coming together here.
Um, and first of all, just wantto, you know, um, uh, lift up
Omar and his ministry and allthe things that he's doing

(01:04:44):
outside of, uh, just, um, youknow, doing the job thing.
Um, I I, I've known him just alittle bit here and, uh, you
know, it's obvious that, uh, uh,he loves what you love.
And, at the end of the day, youknow, your word is, um, is
really all about love.
In fact, your word says that youare love.

(01:05:05):
Uh, so, so thank you.
Uh, thank you father for, uh,for loving us, um, and, uh, the
people that are listening tothis podcast.
Hey, thanks for giving, uh,giving me grace on my, on my
story.
And, um, um, you know, mydesires is that, uh, um, that
you, um, realize that you are aone of a kind masterpiece.

(01:05:30):
And that, um, that there's goodthings planned and it's only
through Christ Jesus that thatrenewal happens.
Um, so, um, whether you believeit or not, um, please take
inventory.
Just, um, ask yourself thequestion, do you have integrity
of what you believe?
Father?
Um, just, uh, thank you for, uh,the opportunity to, to be able

(01:05:53):
to use this platform and, andreach others.
Uh, because I know that thisplatform, uh, that the Omar, uh,
put on his heart is, uh,touching people and sharing and
giving people the voice.
Uh, because there's just a lotof stuff that I know that you're
not happy with that's out there,Lord.
And, um, and, and it, and itneeds to be, it needs to be
said.

(01:06:14):
And, uh, and truth needs to bespoken, so, so Lord, uh, we
thank you.
Uh, we look forward to what'snext.
Uh,'cause we, uh, we believingthat, uh, it was awesome before,
it's gonna be awesome in thefuture as well, uh, because
you're, you got it.
And we trust you.
In Jesus' name I pray.
Amen.
Amen.
In Jesus' name.
Amen.
You know, real quick, uh,something hits in my mind.

(01:06:35):
I, I know the books areavailable in, uh, Amazon.
Yeah.
Right?
The, the four books.
And, and you guys like to go,uh, through the books with
individuals, but you think thatpeople listening would benefit
from, from getting these booksas far as out here.
I know you use'em in prison,but.
Yeah.
So, so what we do in prison isbecause we own the material, we

(01:06:56):
actually just, we, we print likeover a million pages of paper
every, every year.
And we bring'em in, you know,one chapter at a time.
So they don't actually see thebook.
In fact, Ronnie saw his book,the book for the first time when
it was his name was on it.
Okay.
Um, but we're not in thepublishing business.
We did put'em up there becausepeople ask all the time.

(01:07:18):
Yeah.
Uh, what's on, what's on Amazon.
Uh, you would search fortransformational rhythms.
Um, and that's where the booksare at.
Um, uh, the workbooks are notpart of that.
Um, but all the lessons, or Ishould say all the teachings,
that, uh, Bob Clinker and Dr.
Ron Jensen, uh, put together areall in there.

(01:07:39):
And, um, and I, and if you, ifyou go down that path, start
with foundations, don't start inthe middle, doesn't make sense.
Right.
Okay.
We're building the foundationsto start from the bottom up.
Okay.
Alright.
Yeah.
W when I release the podcast,I'll check, I'll go on Amazon
and I'll make sure and I'll,I'll put links to everything to
the, to the website.
Okay.
To the books, uh, podcasts.

(01:08:00):
Yeah.
Alright.
Well th th thank you very muchfor, joining us on here.
And with that we're gonna getready to wrap up.
Uh, uh, Matthew four 16 reads,the people who sat in darkness
have seen a great light, andupon those who sat in the region
and shadow of death light hasdown alongside my guest.
Cliff Perrish am Omar Calvio andwe are wrong.
Too strong.