June 27, 2025 • 56 mins
In this episode of 'Wrong to Strong Chicago,' host Omar Calvillo interviews Jim Kirkland, the Executive Director of Christian Chaplains and Coaching. Jim shares his personal journey, including a transformative encounter with the Holy Spirit at a men's retreat and his initial reluctance to engage in prison ministry, which eventually became a significant part of his calling. Jim discusses his experience meeting and ministering to some of the most hardened prisoners and seeing their lives change through faith in Jesus Christ. Jim also outlines the mission and diverse areas of Christian Chaplains and Coaching, sharing insights on how individuals can become involved in chaplaincy across various fields. The episode is filled with inspirational stories of redemption, hope, and the powerful impact of hospitality and genuine friendship in ministry.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
I went on a men's retreatweekend.
(00:01):
And at that retreat I had anencounter with the Holy Spirit
that just brought me to myknees, brought tears to my eyes.
I came home from that weekendchanged.
It was only a couple years afterthat I started volunteering as a
chaplain So friends of mine thatwere very involved with inside
(00:23):
the prison ministry needed.
Help for that team, and theywanted me to be on the team with
them, and I did not want to go.
My attitude towards those thatwere incarcerated was lock'em up
and throw away the key.
They deserve to be there.
They should be punished for whatthey did.
I didn't want anything to dowith them.
I was totally ignoring thescripture where Jesus said, when
(00:45):
I was in prison, you visited meand And so kicking and
screaming.
I got dragged into the prison onthis team and I met murderers,
rapists, drug lords, gangleaders.
Worst of the worst, really, andI saw several of them be
influenced by Jesus Christ in away that it made a visible
(01:06):
difference in their life.
And they came to Jesus and gavethemselves to Jesus.
But that experience absolutelyrocked my world.
It changed my life.
And it is the reason why I madeprogress at becoming an ordained
chaplain and making chaplaincy amajor part of my ministry.
(01:41):
From the city of Chicago, a citymost recently known for its
crime and violence.
On this podcast, we will besharing stories of redemption
from individuals raised in thetough streets of Chicago and
from around the country.
Some of them were gang members,drug dealers, incarcerated
victims, and perpetrators ofviolence.
(02:02):
Listen to my guests as theyshare their experiences,
struggles, trauma, but also thestrength, hope, faith and
perseverance, these havedeveloped in them to keep
pushing and moving forward inlife.
Tune in to hear how their liveshave gone from darkness to light
and from wrong to strong.
Omar (02:22):
Uh, hello everyone, and welcome to another, uh, episode
of Wrong to Strong Chicago.
I'm your host.
Uh, my name's Omar Calvio, uh,and this afternoon.
It's actually, uh, on a Sundayfirst, uh, podcast interview
I've done on a Sunday, and I'mdoing it on my phone.
Uh, so I hope it comes out well.
It looks like so far, so good.
Uh, but I'm here with, uh, uh,the executive Director of
(02:44):
Christian Chaplains andCoaching.
His name is Jim Kirkland.
Uh, he's been, uh, he's aretired pastor who was doing
pastoral ministry for over 35years, also as a Christian, uh,
life and also in Christian lifecoaching.
Also as in chaplain ministry,but there's more information
that he's gonna share as we goalong.
(03:06):
Uh, but I'd like to work on tothe podcast.
They, they, they thank you forbeing out here.
Jim (03:09):
Thank you, Omar.
It's really, really good to bewith you today and a message to
you from all of our staff thatwe really love you and we're
really proud of you.
And we're really glad to callyou one of our chaplains.
Omar (03:23):
Hmm.
Amen.
Amen.
And, uh, yeah, the, the, the wayI met him was, uh, through
Christian Chaplains andcoaching.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, I was introduced to thisministry, uh, from a friend of
my wife, uh, her name's SarahGonzalez.
Uh, Sarah is involved in, uh,cook County, a prison ministry.
Um, she's the one that got meconnected with, uh, Nia House
National Ministries, and I'mvolunteering in Cook County.
(03:45):
Uh, but through her she told me,Hey Omar, you should look into,
um, this ministry.
So I went online.
Started looking into it.
I, I watched some of their, uh,videos describing the program.
Uh, I joined and I took it.
It definitely blessed me.
So I, I want to thank you forthe work that you're doing, and,
uh, eventually I want to getinto how you got into it and
(04:06):
what exactly is Christianchapter and coaching, and
definitely want the listeners tohear about it and maybe who
knows?
God willing, they have thatheart, that desire to serve in
such a capacity.
Maybe they could join along towhat you guys have, uh, started.
Sure thing.
Alright, uh, uh, uh, you, you,you wanna tell us, uh, like I
said, we wanna get into how yougot there, but man, let, let's
(04:26):
go to the beginning.
Uh, you want to tell us, uh,what part of the country did you
grew up in and how was life foryou?
As, as, as, as a young kid, youknow?
Jim (04:34):
Oh boy.
You're going.
I mean, I'm 67 years old, sowe're going back a long time.
Way back when Moby Dick wasstill a guppy, basically.
So, no, I was born in, uh, Ohio.
And, um, the unexpected additionto a family that already had
three children.
My brothers and sister were, uh,10 and 12 and 14 years older
(04:58):
than me, so I was the accidentalgift to the family.
Uh, but my father died when Iwas three years old.
Uh, which really, of course, asyou can imagine, threw a real
monkey wrench into our.
Into our whole workings of ourfamily.
We were pretty poor at thattime.
Uh, didn't really have resourcesfinancially.
Mom was desperate.
(05:20):
Uh, I could tell you somestories about what we went
through back at that time, butbottom line is, is my mom, uh,
about, I.
When I was five years old, met aa, a man who was a principal of
a school.
An educator, made good money.
She was desperate for financialsupport, uh, and reached out to
him and, and they ended upgetting married.
(05:42):
And, uh, when I was going intothe fourth grade, he was offered
a job in Nova Scotia, Canada.
And so he moved us to NovaScotia when I was in the fourth
grade.
And so that's where I grew upall the way through my first
year of college.
(06:02):
Uh, in, I don't know if you'veever been to Nova Scotia, but
you can Google it.
It's a beautiful place.
Omar (06:07):
Um, you, you, you know what could, could, could, could
you describe it maybe a littlebit like for our listeners?
Well, Nova Scotia.
Jim (06:12):
Nova Scotia is a gale, uh, word.
It means New Scotland.
It was settled originally by theScottish people way many, many
years ago.
But the Highlands of CapeBritain, Nova Scotia looked so
much like the highlands ofScotland, is that they called it
New Scotland, which is NovaScotia.
So there's a big Celtic orCeltic influence there,
(06:33):
bagpipers and the kilt wearingpeople.
And, um.
Uh, it's just a lot of music andIrish and Scotch influence and,
uh, it was quite an interesting,wonderful place, uh, for me to
grow up.
I loved the people there and insome ways miss it, but as, as,
as my life continued, uh, mystepfather.
(06:56):
Uh, in terms of influence on mylife was an abusive alcoholic.
Now, for you and yourconstituents, especially those
that have been incarcerated,that have responded to whatever
victim they are a victims of,right?
We're all victims of something.
We all are.
And, uh, all of us respond tothe negative things that happen
(07:19):
to us.
Uh, mostly we respond innegative ways.
Uh, some of us commit crimes andsome of us don't.
Uh, or some of us at least don'tget caught on committing a
crime.
But for me, the, the, uh, abuse,verbal abuse, a little physical
abuse, no sexual abuse, um,fights with my brother, uh, my,
(07:43):
my next brother who was stillyoung enough to still be at
home.
Um.
It was a very challenging lifeand, um, I eventually got to the
point in Nova Scotia where I hadthought I was gonna go into the
Canadian military.
And that's a whole long storythat we really don't have time
to get into.
But that did not work out.
(08:04):
And, uh, by the time I finishedmy, uh, first year of college at
St.
Mary's University in Halifax,Nova Scotia, um.
I was just kind of lost, um,didn't know what I was going to
do.
Uh, career choice that I thoughtI was gonna follow up on did not
work out.
But my brother Bill, who was aVietnam veteran and, uh, and as
(08:26):
we're celebrating or rememberingMemorial Day this weekend and
the lives that were lost frompeople that wore the uniform of
the United States, it's.
Um, probably good to remember tosay thanks to them.
Uh, but my brother was a, uh,Vietnam vet and, uh, decorated
Silver Star, two Bronze StarsCombat v Purple Heart.
(08:48):
Um, I mean, he really saw actionin Vietnam and, but he had moved
back to the, back to Ohio and,uh, he was in the Kent State
area where Kent State Universityis located.
He had gotten married and Italked to him on the phone and I
told him how lost I was.
I didn't know what I was gonnado, and he said, well, why don't
you just move.
In with us.
Why don't you just come back toOhio?
(09:09):
And I did.
And I went to Kent State and I'mso glad I did because that's
where I met my girlfriend.
Uh, and we've now been marriedfor 47 years.
Wow.
But I wasn't raised in aChristian household.
We did not know Jesus.
I didn't know about Jesus.
I just know that Jesus hadsomething to do with the
celebration of Christmas.
And uh, and the reason why wegot presents on Christmas day
(09:31):
and, and somehow.
He was related to Santa Claus,but I didn't know really much
about that.
But after I met my wife and uh,we spent one year at Kent State
and then.
Both of us were unsure what wewere gonna do.
I was offered a job in Michigan.
She dropped outta school with meand we eloped and ran away and
(09:51):
went to Michigan and took onthis job and met, uh, a new
friend in Michigan.
I.
Never forget this man.
He's gone now, he's gone to bewith the Lord.
His name was Billy Brickey, theold Southern Baptist fellow that
made friends with Virginia andme and invited us to his home
for dinner one time.
And, uh, before he invited us tochurch, he invited us to his
(10:13):
home.
I.
And, uh, his small group fromchurch was there and we enjoyed
a meal.
And after the meal was over,I'll never forget that, uh,
they, they just got Bibles outand decided they were gonna have
a Bible study.
And I, we had never done thatbefore and neither my wife nor
me, uh, with the dessert camethe Bibles and the Bible
discussion and the conversation,and they were wondering what we
(10:35):
believe and we shared the, well,we don't.
Really believe what you believe.
And they were okay with that.
They, they invited us back fordinner the next Sunday too.
And we went and we became dearfriends with them and eventually
we started going to church whilemy wife and I were living
together in sin.
And, uh, they did not judge usfor that.
That still stands out to me evento this day.
(10:56):
Right?
They didn't, they weren'tjudgmental.
They just loved us in where,right, where we were.
Anyway, long story short, westarted going to church with
them.
My wife and I, uh.
I dunno.
Maybe the third or fourth Sundaythat we were there, we were
during an altar call that, uh,pastor Larry Lawrence from
Taylor Center Baptist Church.
It's amazing.
I can even still remember thename.
(11:17):
It's been a long time ago.
That was back in 1978 when thisall happened.
Um,
Omar (11:22):
that's when I was born.
Jim (11:23):
Yeah, that's, you were born 1978.
Okay.
Omar (11:26):
Yeah.
Yes.
Jim (11:26):
Okay.
Well, so we accepted the altarcall.
My wife and I grabbed our handsand grabbed, held hands, and we
walked.
We walked down together and mybrother, bill and his wife were
there too.
We, all four of us, acceptedChrist together that day.
Uh, and then a few, a coupleweeks later, uh, we walked the
aisle again when we went downthere to, uh, go and get
(11:49):
baptized in front of the church.
And so all four of us, we werebaptized together, which was
kind of a neat thing, you know,that happened.
Um, then, then after we becamebelievers, that's when my.
When our new friends led byBilly Brickey began to share
with us what the Scripture'steaching was about sex and
marriage and the importance ofobeying the commands of Christ.
(12:13):
And what, what I really takefrom that, which I, I hope your
listeners take from this too, isthat as believers, we're not
here to disciple the unsaved.
We're here to show them what achange to life in Jesus Christ
can look like.
And if the Holy Spirit drawsthem near to Jesus and they get
saved, then we can disciplethem.
And that's what these people didfor us.
They didn't start directing usto obey Jesus until we believed
(12:37):
Jesus.
Hmm.
That's when they began todisciple us and it had a real
impact on us and we took it toheart.
And so my wife and I, althoughwe were living in the same
house, we did have two bedrooms.
And so I moved out of thebedroom that she was in and we
slept in separate rooms forseveral weeks, which was really
hard to do when we're, whenwe're used to sleeping, you
know, together.
Yeah.
(12:57):
Um, but we, we did our best tohonor, uh, what we were learning
from scripture and from ourChristian friends on how to live
the Christian life.
We, we stayed celibate, uh,during that period of time.
We, we waited and then the timecame for us to get married on
November 4th, 1978.
Just recently born again,recently baptized, and then my
(13:19):
wife and I.
Walked to the aisle one moretime at the same church, and
that's when we were married.
And my brother Bill was my bestman at that wedding.
So that's the story of mysalvation.
Hmm.
However, I'll say that the.
Abuse that I took and believingthat I was never gonna be good
(13:41):
enough.
That nothing that I ever coulddo was ever gonna be right or
good enough.
If I would get a, a minus on agrade at school, it would be
how, you know, you're, you'reworthless.
How, why didn't you get an A?
So my whole upbringing with thisabusive of father was very, very
challenging and difficult forme.
And, and, uh, one of my brotherswas so, uh, rebellious and.
(14:06):
And, you know, and rightly so,it was a difficult life.
He'd lost his father.
He was angry with God, and, andhe hated our stepfather.
So there's nothing but fighting.
And then he took it out on me.
And so I had a lot of thatgrowing up.
And.
So I, I was always defensive andaggressive and abrasive and had
(14:26):
kind of the attitude, you know,tell me I can't do something.
Well hold my beer and watch thiswas kind of my attitude, right?
So, started my own company in1979, incorporated it in 1981,
was in financial servicesbusiness.
Um, investment management.
Went and became a stockbrokerand learned how to do those
kinds of things.
(14:47):
Um, calling myself a Christianbecause I was a believer in
Jesus, but I cannot say that Ihad actually changed my life.
Hmm.
My life didn't begin to changeuntil the Holy Spirit really got
a hold of my heart.
But that didn't happen fornearly 15 years.
Wow.
Uh, I was really self-servingand self-interested, and we had
(15:08):
children and I, I was as mean ofa father as my stepfather was
really, I didn't know how to bea dad.
And I regret that with my kidstoday and they'll, they'll tell
you that I'm the dad they havetoday is a different dad from
when they had, when they were,when they were younger because
the Holy Spirit has been and iscontinuing.
To change me into something new.
(15:30):
But there, there came a point intime where
I went on a men's retreatweekend.
Um, it was called The Way of Christ Weekend.
It was three days with, with menon a retreat.
And at that retreat I had anencounter with the Holy Spirit
that just brought me to myknees, brought tears to my eyes.
Uh, and that's,
(15:51):
I came home from that weekendchanged.
It was only a couple years afterthat
while I was really becoming more serious about dedicating my
life to Jesus and living it forhim.
Even in the business that I wasin,
I started
at that time
volunteering as a chaplain
and serving at a nursing home and going to visit people
in the, uh, police departmentand trying to work with the
(16:12):
sheriff's department and thatkind of thing.
But mostly it was nursinghomework that I was doing and.
I just started to feel anincreasing interest in call in
ministry.
So friends of mine that werevery involved with
something called Kairos, which is a
(16:35):
inside the prison ministry
where they actually go into a prison, maximum security
prison or a high securityprison, uh,
needed.
Help for that team, and theywanted me to be on the team with
them, and I did not want to go.
My attitude towards those thatwere incarcerated was lock'em up
and throw away the key.
They deserve to be there.
(16:56):
They should be punished for whatthey did.
I didn't want anything to dowith them.
I was totally ignoring thescripture where Jesus said, when
I was in prison, you visited meand
I was reminded of that by my Christian friends who said,
Jim, you you, you probably needto do this more for you.
Hmm than for anybody else.
And so kicking and screaming.
(17:17):
I got dragged into the prison onthis team
for Kairos
and I met murderers, rapists,drug lords gang leaders.
Worst of the worst, really,
that were approved to be on this weekend, or 40 inmates that
(17:39):
were involved on this weekend.
And I saw several of them beinfluenced by Jesus Christ in a
way that it made a visibledifference in their life.
And they came to Jesus and
gave Himself.
Gave themselves to Jesus.
And Omar, I know, I know.
You know something about thatexperience.
Yes.
(17:59):
But that experience absolutelyrocked my world.
It changed my life.
And it is the reason why I madeprogress at becoming an ordained
chaplain and making chaplaincy amajor part of my ministry.
Now, I tried to be a pastor too for several years.
(18:19):
I worked in several differentchurches as as a interim senior
pastor and a senior pastor andexecutive pastor.
And I got chewed up and spit outas a pastor because I, I believe
that the primary job of a pastorfound an Ephesians, which says
that the pastor and teacher whoequips the saints or believers
(18:42):
for ministry, and I waspastoring in churches that were
so stuck in their traditions.
And in being with each otherwhile ignoring those who don't
know Jesus, without a desire tolove people who live life
differently than they do,unwilling to serve the lost, um,
(19:04):
that I was unable to train themto serve the lost as because of
my experience inside the prison.
Had caused me to want them toparticipate in so that they
could receive the joy that Jesuspromised us if we're on mission
with him.
And that that changed the wholetrajectory of my faith and
belief system.
So, long story short, that thatnow put me on a path towards
(19:26):
being a pastor, which I failedat because I could not get the
saints that I was trying to leadto get off their butts in the
pews.
And get out there and do thework of Mission and Ministry,
which we're all called to do,they would rather sit on their
hind end and watch theprofessionals do all the work
for them instead ofparticipating in ministry.
(19:49):
While we did it together, I.
That was a challenge for me, butin chaplaincy, when I began
training others to serve aschaplains, come with me.
We'll get you credentialed as achaplain.
Let's get you deployed.
Let's show you how.
Let's do it together for awhile.
Let me get you placed inside ofa prisoner or a jail, or a
police department or firedepartment, or or a hospital or
(20:10):
a nursing home, or a hospicecompany, or an assisted living,
or a Celebrate Recovery ministryfor people that are suffering
from addictive behavior orbiblical victim.
Abuse, uh, uh, abuse, you know,how do you help people that have
been suffering from abuse alltheir life, sexual, um, physical
verbal abuse?
That, that are strugglingwithout even having a normal
(20:31):
life.
How can we chaplains get outthere and do it?
And what I discovered inteaching chaplaincy and showing
people how to do this ministryis that the mature believers of
a church who wanted to be onmission like the ambassador of
Jesus, that we are supposed tobe missionaries.
Working on the mission field,bringing the body of Christ to
(20:54):
show people what it looks likewhen the body of Christ shows up
in the middle of their crisis.
That's when that's when Istarted to really feel
successful at equipping theSaints for ministry.
So I got out of pastoring andchaplaincy became my focus, and
(21:16):
seven years ago this October, I.
At at age 60.
When I thought I was gonna beretiring, God put me back to
work where I'm working longerhours now than I've ever worked,
ever, you know, as executivedirector for Christian chaplains
and coaching, and our, ourmission is to restore chaplaincy
to biblical Christianity.
(21:38):
Our mission is to help.
Blue collar scholars, peoplethat have at least a high school
and some additional education,but they're learners.
They're wanting to learn.
They're willing to learn.
Let's get a path where they canlearn the basics of chaplaincy
and grief care and maybebiblical victim care prison
ministry.
They can learn some basics, getcredentialed as an ordained
(22:01):
chaplain.
Legally recognized as clergy,then continue their education
after that, throughcertifications and continuing
education and that kind ofthing.
That was our vision when westarted this ministry seven
years ago.
The reason why we feel it needsto be restored to biblical
Christianity is because althoughChaplaincy is a 1500 year old
(22:24):
Christian ministry, it's beenhijacked over the last 50 years.
By Universalists, secularhumanists, atheists, all kinds
of people who are callingthemselves chaplains and forcing
Christians to believe thingsthat are false in order to be a
chaplain.
And so we wanted to restorechaplaincy to our Christian
(22:47):
roots, our evangelical, biblicalChristian roots.
That's why we started theministry.
And so today it's been sevenyears.
We've got over 400 people thatwe've ordained as chaplains.
We are teaching all kinds ofcontinuing education courses and
certifications.
Certified Christian life coach,biblical victim training.
(23:09):
Grief training for, for yourchurch.
Uh, prison ministry courses,basics of chaplaincy courses.
We've got college courses.
We have a track for people toget their associate's degree
with chaplain emphasis,bachelor's degree in chaplaincy,
master's of degrees inchaplaincy with clinical,
pastoral education being taught.
(23:30):
These are all things that Godhas done in our ministry.
I'm gonna, I'm gonna close withthis and give you a chance to
get a word in edgewise here,Omar.
Uh.
God has been blessing us and wehave been increasing and
expanding our ministry so muchthat for me, it's so much bigger
(23:51):
than I imagined it seven yearsago that it's sort of been like
trying to get a drink of waterout of a fire hose and it is
knocking me.
Kind of what the old saying isARS and Over Tea Kettle, if you
know what I mean.
It's just knocking me backwardsoff my feet because the Lord has
just been growing our ministry.
We've grown our teaching team,we've got staff now of 10
(24:13):
people.
Uh, it's just crazy what God isdoing with our ministry.
And I would invite you to godeeper in your own education and
certifications and lifelonglearning.
And I would invite any of yourlisteners if, if, listen, if
you're truly a born againbeliever.
If you're truly a member of the,of the church, the big seed
(24:33):
church, the church universal,which is made up of every born
again believer in Jesus Christ,who was, who is and who will be.
That's the church.
And if you are a member of thatchurch and you believe what we
believe.
And you have a desire to becomethe hands and feet of Jesus and
learn how to serve effectivelyoutside of the church in secular
(24:56):
settings where the lost arehurting.
They're in the storm of life.
They don't know how to deal withtheir circumstances.
They're suffering post-traumaticstress disorder.
They're suffering grief.
They're suffering addictivebehavior, and they don't know
how to change their life.
But we can show them whatchanged life looks like and give
them hope.
(25:16):
And if you're interested in thatkind of ministry as a chaplain,
you go to our website and checkus out.
We'd love to help you.
We'd love to help you become achaplain, and then help you go
further for the rest of yourlife to learn how to be an
effective spiritual careprovider as a chaplain, wherever
it is that God calls you toserve.
(25:37):
Well, is that what you werelooking for, Omar?
Or was that a little bit toomuch?
Oh man, much.
Omar (25:41):
No, no, no.
That's great.
And actually I want get more.
It's so good.
I want a little more, uh, youknow, speaking of that, could
you share the website wherepeople could go to, to hear
about what you guys are doing?
Jim (25:50):
Yeah, that'll be Christian chaplains dot ORG.
Now remember, chaplain isspelled two different ways.
Charlie Chaplin.
The comedian of old is spelledC-H-A-P-L-I-N, Chaplin.
That's not how you spellchaplain.
Chaplain is spelledC-H-A-P-L-A-I-N.
(26:13):
So if you Google.
Christian chaplains.org.
You will find us.
In fact, if you do a search onGoogle for Christian chaplains
in general, you'll probably seeour website pop up as the first
or second choice because we'reone of.
Very few, if any, genuinelybiblical evangelical Christian
ministries that are dedicated tochaplaincy these days.
(26:36):
And so there's a few but notvery many.
But you'll find us just doing aGoogle search.
Go to the website.
You can find out what webelieve, what our membership
expectations are, what ourcourses are, and how you might
become one of our chaplains justlike you.
Omar, one of one of ourchaplains.
I get, I get to take credit foryou being one of ours and I'm
proud of you.
Omar (26:56):
Oh, no.
I, I thank you.
I'm truly blessed by it.
And, uh, I, I know this is justthe beginning.
I know you beforehand, before westarted recording, you're
challenging me to continueeducation.
Sure.
Why not?
Associates, bachelor's.
And just to keep going.
So I'm definitely, uh, lookingforward.
'cause, uh, I'm, uh, I, I heard,uh, somebody just told me
recently, what do you say?
Uh, uh, he said, uh, sometimes ateacher, always a student.
(27:19):
And that really stood out to melike, man, that, oh, that, that,
that, that should be us.
He says, sometimes a teacher,always a student.
That's, so that's,
Jim (27:27):
that's an excellent saying.
I love that.
Omar (27:29):
Yeah.
I just heard
Jim (27:30):
that recently.
I, yeah, go ahead.
That ties into what it means tobe a disciple.
The word disciple, it's from aGreek word es, it means disciple
or student, depending on whereyou're reading it.
When Jesus spoke the word inMatthew 28, go therefore, and
make disciples, baptizing them.
(27:52):
Who are them?
Disciples.
You can't be a disciple unlessyou're a believer.
So you gotta be, become abeliever first, right?
You have to believe before youbecome a disciple, baptizing
them, which is what is thatsymbolic of the life I was
living.
The person I used to be is dead.
I.
Buried with Jesus and raised tonew life.
(28:13):
That's what baptism is symbolicof.
I'm crucified with Christ.
I'm a new creation.
I'm raised to new life.
Then teaching them to obey allthat I've commanded.
So what is, what do you do whenyou're learning you're a
student?
Guess what?
That's what the word disciplemeans.
A student, a follower, alearner.
And so in Luke, after Jesus wentthrough the beatitudes.
(28:38):
He talked about don't livejudgmental condemning lives.
He said, live lives of lovingeverybody right where they are.
Love them where they are.
Be rich in spirit.
Although you may be poorfinancially, be rich in spirit.
Listen.
Don't be pointing fingers atwhat's wrong with everybody else
(29:02):
until you first address what'swrong with you, so that you can
show them what progress lookslike.
And he illustrated that with theparable of the blind man.
A blind man cannot lead a blindman.
Can he?
Won't they both fall into a pit?
Well, of course the answer tothat question is yes.
He goes on to say that astudent.
(29:25):
That same word, they'retranslated student or disciple,
depending on translation.
I don't mean to be preaching asermon for you here, but No, no,
but this is important on thesubject that you brought up of,
of learning, right?
Yes.
Because that's what we are asdisciples, we're learners.
He says A student is not abovehis teacher.
In other words.
You and I as students, we don'tknow more than the person who's
(29:49):
made more progress than us attaking the log from their own
eye.
I.
So that they can see clearly toremove the splinter from their
brother.
I we're, we're, we're talkingabout somebody who's a little
bit more advanced in walking thewalk.
We talk, showing us, teaching ushow to do that.
But us students, we're asstudents, we're not above our
teacher.
(30:09):
We don't know more than ourteacher, but it goes on to say,
but when fully trained, thestudent becomes like his
teacher.
Ultimately our teacher is RabbiJesus.
Amen.
Rabbi means teacher.
Yeah.
(30:29):
And we're the student and we'resupposed to be teaching each
other how to obey all thatChrist has commanded.
Right?
That's part of it.
But you can only do that to abeliever.
You can't do that to anonbeliever'cause they don't
believe it.
Why would they wanna follow itif they don't believe it?
And so, uh, put that another wayto just to close this out.
Um.
One of my seminary professors,when I was at Moody Theological
(30:51):
Seminary, I was working on mymaster's degree.
He illustrated that passage ofscripture by saying that a
student can learn the, here'sthe difference between being a
student and being a disciple,because both of them are
learners.
We can go to school and we canpass an exam by.
Correctly giving back to theteacher, the answers the teacher
(31:12):
is looking for.
That doesn't mean we become likethe teacher, right?
Doesn't necessarily mean that.
So he said to illustrate this,that a student can learn what
his teacher knows, but adisciple becomes what his
teacher is.
(31:34):
Amen.
So as learners.
Our goal in this life is to besteadily transformed and
conformed into the image andlikeness of Christ steadily over
time.
And how do I know, Omar, thatyou are not there yet?
Same way.
I know I'm not there yet.
You know why?
We're still breathing.
(31:54):
How was that?
We're still breathing.
Amen.
So we're not done yet, right?
Amen.
I'm 67 years old and I'm gettingready to start my doctorate.
Omar (32:04):
Wow.
Jim (32:05):
Only because why not?
What's stopping me?
The only thing stopping you orme from doing anything for Jesus
is between our ears.
That's the only thing stoppingany of us is the obstacles that
exist between our ears.
That little voice inside of ussaying, you can't do it.
You are not worthy.
You're never gonna be goodenough.
That's how I was raised, and theLord has delivered me from that
(32:30):
yoke of slavery and thank GodI'm now in a position to
encourage people like you tojoin me.
Come on, let's do this.
We can do this together.
Omar (32:38):
Amen.
Amen.
You know what, pastor, on thatnote, do you say a short prayer
for people who are strugglingwith that very same thing, like
you mentioned, that's what'shindering what's between the
ears.
And I know you said that theLord helped you overcome, but I
just feel like somebody maybeneeds a short prayer
specifically in that area tobreak, break from that.
Jim (32:59):
Listen.
Uh, yes.
Um, uh, Philippians, um, four12.
Um.
Tells us that we can do allthings through Christ who
strengthens us.
And that doesn't mean I can getanything I want in this life.
Lord, we, we don't wanna applythat scripture incorrectly, that
Pa Paul has told us there, ohLord.
(33:19):
And you have told us through hisword, that whether I'm rich or
poor.
Whether I have much or plenty,whether I am hungry or I am
full, whether I'm in prison orout of prison, no matter what I
am going through in this life, Ican endure anything through
Christ who strengthens me.
I, with Jesus can get throughthis.
(33:42):
I can endure through this.
I can make progress.
I can grow, I can improve, and Ipray, oh God.
Whatever it's, it is between theears of a listener to this
podcast who has up to this pointin life been handcuffed to the
(34:03):
lie of Satan, that they're notworthy, handcuffed to the lie of
Satan, that they can never bemade right.
They could never be forgiven.
They could never have a betterlife because they don't deserve
it.
I rebuke that now in the name ofJesus Christ, and I pray, oh
(34:25):
God, that those shackles will bereleased, that their prison door
will be opened, but they have towalk out of it.
And I pray, oh God, thatsomebody will hear this.
And make the choice to receiveyou for salvation, to receive
the forgiveness that only youcan give and decide to turn
(34:46):
their life over to you and startmaking progress at walking life
in a new way with your help andwith the help of fellow
believers.
And I ask this in the name ofJesus.
Amen.
Omar (34:58):
My name.
I thank you for that prayer and,and the reason I ask, not just
for the listeners, but even formyself, like when you said that
that's something that I believe.
Hinders me.
It's usually us stop stopping usfrom continuing to grow that
little boy.
So definitely I thank you forthat.
Uh, I, I, I wanna go back tosomething you shared that stood
out to me.
I had actually to write it down.
Uh, you said that the, before,that couple that introduced you
(35:22):
to, to Christ that brought youto church that said, you said
that before the church washospitality.
They invited you to their home.
I know hospitality's, uh, big Asfar as your, uh, uh, I believe
it's on the core values, if I'mnot mistaken.
So could, could you share aboutthat?
Because when you shared thatstory, I'm like, man, I wonder
if that's part of the reason whyhospitality is so big.
(35:43):
To, to, to you guys.
Jim (35:44):
It, it honestly is, um, we, we use a phrase called missional
community.
These days, there's a lot ofchurches and organizations that
practice something called smallgroup, especially in traditional
churches.
They, they have small groups,right?
They, they call it discipleship,but uh, mostly it isn't
discipleship because it's.
Well, all they're doing is samegroup of people year in and year
(36:05):
out, only meeting together andthey meet in their homes and
they pray together, which isgreat.
And they study the Bible andthey share food and they pray
for each other.
And then they come back togethernext week after church or
whenever they meet.
But unless we're on mission,outside of the context of
church, we're not reallylearning how to make disciples.
We're not learning how to sharethe gospel.
We're not learning how toproclaim.
(36:27):
And so.
Remind me your question again'cause I just, I just took a
left hand turn in my head andstarted going in the wrong
direction.
Yeah, yeah.
Omar (36:35):
Bring me back here, Omar, bring me back.
You, you, you mentioned that,that before they invited me to
church.
They invited me to the home.
Oh, the hospitality.
Jim (36:42):
Yes, yes, yes.
Yeah, absolutely.
So that's why we re we use theterm missional community where,
where believers are comingtogether.
In the context of hospitalityfor each other, yes, as
believers, but also beinghospitable to those who don't
believe, like that hospitalitythat was extended to Virginia
(37:03):
and I, who, as I look back onit, we were living an abhorrent
lifestyle to them.
We were living in sin, we werehaving sex together.
We even had had an abortion backat that time, which is a whole
completely other topic, right?
Yeah.
Uh, and they knew all aboutthat, and I know now that
bothered them.
They never let us know that itbothered them because we weren't
(37:26):
believers yet.
And so by extending hospitalityto us in a culturally sensitive
way, in a relevant way, where wewere.
We weren't made to feel like wewere being judged or condemned
for the lifestyle that we werein, and they trusted the Holy
Spirit to draw us to God withoutthem feeling like they have to
(37:46):
twist our arm to accept Jesus.
They gave us that hospitality.
So what?
What do we do in hospitality?
Well, several things.
One.
Is wherever we go as the body ofChrist, we're creating a
hospitable environment, a safeplace where people can feel
like, you know, I can talk toyou about anything and you're
(38:12):
not judging me.
Everywhere I go, I'm beingjudged everywhere.
People are telling me I'm this,or telling me that I'm that, or
I'm not gonna ever be this, orI'm not gonna ever be that, or
This life that I'm leading ishorrendous.
I'm judged everywhere.
And especially those that areincarcerated, everybody's
(38:35):
judging them.
Nobody's loving them.
So in hospitality, we'reextending that ministry of
presence where we're genuinelypresent.
We're genuinely interested, andjust like you've been interested
in my story today, right?
In hospitality, we're interestedin their story.
We wanna know more about you.
(38:55):
What is your life like?
How, how did you get to whereyou are right now?
What, okay, well this is whereyou are.
What do you think you did rightso far?
What would you change if youcould change anything?
You know, those are the kind ofquestions that we wanna be
asking people and just let themtalk it out.
Tell me your story.
What was your life like?
What was your house like?
What was your, what kind offoods did you grow up eating?
(39:18):
You know, what was your culturelike?
Really?
Oh my gosh, I can't even imaginethat.
Right?
And then, and tell me more aboutthat.
That that's hospitality.
That's where people savetalking.
Through that ministry ofpresence, while we learn to ask
questions, we stop trying to fixpeople because we can't fix
people.
Only God can fix people andbeing hospitable right with them
(39:44):
right where they are outside ofthe church and trusting Jesus
through that hospitality to drawthem or repel them.
And brother.
They will either be drawn toJesus or they'll be repelled by
Jesus, and we do not havecontrol over that.
So if they're repelled by Jesusand they never wanna talk to us,
(40:09):
then Jesus said, shake that dustoff your feet.
Go to the next one, and keepbringing the hand of fellowship
to these people and love them asthey are.
That's the commands of Jesus,but those who are attracted to
Jesus.
Who become saved now they'repart of our family.
(40:30):
And we begin to disciple thoseby doing life with them and
teaching them and loving them,and, and now gently correcting
them from the word of Godwithout being judgmental or
condemning about it.
So that's hospitality and that'swhy it's such an important part
of our ministry.
Omar (40:46):
And I think that ties in perfectly to one of your, um, I
would say a model of yours thatreally spoke to me, uh, as a, a
make a friend.
Be your friend and help leadthat friend to Christ.
Amen.
And that really like, like,spoke to me, especially in
regards to, uh, uh, one of theother things that, that, uh,
stood out is no proselytizing,basically trying to convert
(41:08):
somebody.
And just like you mentioned,just get to know the person.
Like, uh, I, I think I even, oneof the questions when I filed
my, uh.
Was it my report or the, that Ihad to turn into you?
The paper?
Yeah.
Uh, that's what I wrote down.
Yeah.
The paper.
One of the things that thatstood out to me is, uh, usually
in, in the past if somebody cameto me with a, with a belief that
(41:29):
was contrary to mine, to, to, tomy belief, or they were
attacking my faith or trying to,uh, convert me in a sense to
whatever they believe, I wouldautomatically tune them out.
In my mind, like I'm just like,I'm not gonna listen to them.
I don't want to hear what theygotta say.
But now my mindsets shift.
Well, man, let, let me listen tothe person, let me get to know
them.
(41:49):
Let let me get to know why theybelieve what they believe.
And just like sincerely, likelisten, get to know them and
just maybe get a chance tobuild, like you mentioned, a
friend, a friendship, or atleast o uh, open line of
communication.
So that's definitely somethingthat's stood out to me now where
(42:10):
I was telling my wife, I thinkit was even yesterday.
Like, man, maybe one day I'mgonna do podcasts with people
that believe opposite of what Ibelieve.
Like maybe, maybe they don'tbelieve at all.
Why, why, why, why can't I havesit down and have a conversation
with'em and hear them outwithout me trying to convert
them or them trying to make medoubt my faith?
(42:32):
But man, just to get to knowyou, I, I want to know what led
you to where you're at now.
Sure.
Why don't you believe, or why doyou believe what you believe?
That's definitely one thingthat, that I got from, from your
ministry.
Jim (42:43):
Yeah.
Thank you for that.
And yeah, that make a friend bea friend and, uh, draw your
friend to Christ.
You, you might have to be afriend for a long time before
you get an opportunity to drawthem to Christ.
And there's a reason why theBible says that the road is
narrow that leads to heaven, andfew will find it.
And the path to hell is wide.
(43:08):
It's a multi-lane highway andmany are on it.
We don't have control over whoends up on the narrow path and
who ends up on the wide road,but we do have control over
extending hospitality to thecollective.
Everybody like the Acts, chaptertwo verses 37 to 47, it talked
about what the original churchlooked like as they did life
(43:30):
together as the body of Christamong nonbelievers, who many of
them were trying to kill them.
Roman society was a dangerousplace for a Christian to live
back at that time.
But the scripture goes on to saythat they had favor with all the
people.
It was the Christians that werecreating the hospitals.
It was the Christians who weredoing the orphanages.
(43:53):
It was the Christians who werevisiting people in jails and
prisons.
It was the Christians who werehelping the folks next.
Door who don't believe, who justlost their husband in a disaster
and had children at home thatthey couldn't feed.
It was the Christians who weredoing that, and they had favor
with all the people.
And because of that, God addedto their number daily, those who
(44:17):
were being saved in spite of thepersecution.
So that's our mission.
Make a friend be a friend.
And draw your friend to Christif the Lord draws them near
right.
Amen.
And then do life with them.
Amen.
Amen.
Adopt them into Amen.
The family.
Amen.
And now we're on the same team,brother.
(44:39):
All right.
Let's do this together.
Let's help each other.
Let's make progress,
Omar (44:43):
man.
Uh, one of the things that stoodout too is, uh, we, we, we can't
save nobody.
It's the work of the HolySpirit.
And a lot of times, man, if Idon't share the gospel like with
them, like, man, I, I, I'm gonnabe part of them, not.
Coming to Christ or them notcoming to salvation.
Yeah.
And I, I love that that tooklike, almost like the, I would
say like the pressure off in asense where Sure man, whether I
(45:05):
say it or not, like I can't savethem.
It's gonna be a work of the HolySpirit and being okay with it.
'cause I believe you said theygotta, uh, give you permission
to share the gospel.
Jim (45:15):
Well, in a secular setting.
Right, A prison or a hospital.
Yeah, secular.
Yes.
Or veterans administration ormilitary or what have you.
If we're going like a contactevangelist, door to door,
telling people about Jesus,leaning in and saying, Hey, you
gotta know about Jesus.
If you died today, do you knowif we're gonna go to heaven or
hell?
Well, I suppose that might havea place, and there are
evangelists that I.
They say they get some successin doing it that way, but as
(45:38):
chaplains, we rather lean backin a comfortable chair and
invite them into a friendship,right?
We invite, we extend thehospitality, we make them feel.
Safe telling us about theirlife.
And it's amazing how many timespeople will begin to ask us
about the hope that they see inus.
I, I wanna, the last scriptureI'll share with you on that
(46:00):
subject Yeah.
Is, is the, what I believe isthe, on this subject is the most
chaplain verse, although the,the word chaplain doesn't appear
in the Bible.
That first was used in the fifthcentury, like 500 years later.
But first Peter, chapter three,verse 15, I believe, is the most
chaplain verse you're ever gonnafind.
First Peter, chapter three,verse 15.
(46:21):
We ask our chaplains to memorizethat scripture and meditate on
it because it says this, honorin your hearts Christ, the Lord
as holy.
Holy, not.
It doesn't mean often what wethink it means.
It means to be set apartexclusively for the plan and
purpose of God.
And Jesus did that perfectly.
(46:43):
We do it imperfectly, but Jesuswas perfect in His holiness,
only doing what the Fatherwanted him to do.
He was holy.
And we are, we are being told tohonor in our hearts Christ.
The Lord is holy, which impliesthat we're gonna be living our
lives differently, setting Jesusup in our lives as the holy one
(47:08):
of God who we are dedicating ourlives to living for, for the
rest of our lives going forward.
And if we do that, you'd think,you'd think, wouldn't you, that
something would be different.
When people see us in action,when people talk to us, when
people share a meal with us,when people sit down across from
us and have a conversation,you'd think there'd be something
(47:29):
different.
So that scripture says, honor inyour heart Christ.
The Lord is holy.
Always being prepared to make adefense.
Now, here's where the, the doorto door contact evangelists stop
and they'll quote that scriptureand say, you see there?
I have to go and tell everybodyabout Jesus, whether they wanna
(47:50):
hear it or not, but it doesn'tstop there.
Always being prepared to make adefense to anyone who asks you
don't go too quickly in yourmind here.
(48:13):
I.
Always being prepared to make adefense to anyone who asks you.
We gotta be waiting for that inour hospitality.
We gotta be patient in ourhospitality and ask us for what
it tells us to anyone who asksyou for the reason, for the hope
(48:36):
they see in you yet.
Do it.
That is make your defense withgentleness and peace.
That's a chaplain.
That's the Ministry ofHospitality, and that takes
learning and experience,practical guidance, continuing
(49:02):
education, certifications,action, reflection,
self-awareness, spiritualdisciplines, and all of the
above in order for all of us aschaplains to get.
Better and better and betterover time at this wonderful
craft of chaplaincy that we canlead people to Christ through
(49:22):
without pushing our faith onthem uninvited.
And I've saved more people as achaplain than I did as a pastor.
Well, Jesus has saved morepeople through my ministry as a
chaplain than he saved throughmy ministry as a pastor.
So I just leave it at that.
Omar (49:41):
Amen.
You know, I, I know we touched alittle bit on prison ministry as
far as the chaplain in prisons.
What other areas are, are, arechaplains, uh, needed, you know,
for somebody that's gonna listento this and maybe they're
interested and what other arelike the places where chaplains
are?
Jim (49:56):
Mm.
Well, I mean, I'll give you a,a, a, I'll get my machine gun
out and give you a machine gunkind of listing of, of areas
Veterans administration,hospitals.
Uh, department of Defense formilitary.
We've got chaplains that are nowin the military, uh, police
departments, fire departments,um, state prisons, federal
prisons.
(50:17):
Uh, ministries that are workingwith the jails and the prisons
where they're sending volunteersin to work, chaplains can be
involved in that ministry.
Uh, you've got biblical victimcare, you've got child abuse
ministry, you've got, uh,alcohol and drug and other
addictive behavior recovery.
Ministries like CelebrateRecovery.
(50:37):
We have quite a few chaplainsthat are involved in Celebrate
Recovery.
We've got chaplains that areinvolved in ministry to
non-English speaking people whoare living in the United States.
Um, and they, they do an amazingministry.
They hook up with English as asecond language or ESL, where
they'll have a church team thatcomes in and invites these
people into a hospitablerelationship where they share
(50:59):
meals and.
They're teaching them how tospeak and engage with English
while loving them as a missionalcommunity that is on mission for
Jesus, to show these people whatit looks like to be part of the
body of Christ.
So they're just being loved intothe presence of Jesus without
forcing Jesus.
And they use English as a secondlanguage, as a means for doing
that.
There's chaplains that are doingthat ministry, um.
(51:23):
Goodness sakes.
We, we've got chaplains that areinvolved with wayward youth, uh,
juveniles that are, uh, comingfrom broken homes, and they're
upset and they're angry andthey're lashing out and they're
getting in trouble.
They're in trouble with the law.
They're in trouble at school.
Parents are not home when thebus takes them home.
So their current situationdoesn't allow them to be taken
home by the bus.
(51:44):
So they have to go to a, theyhave to go kind of a, to a
halfway house or some interimstop until their parents are
home.
You got chaplains up in Holland,Michigan that are doing an
amazing ministry, hard HardwickMinistries.
It's just amazing the workthey're doing for wayward
children.
Uh, and now they've got peoplethat have become chaplains that
are serving in that ministrythat were troubled youth back
(52:06):
10, 12 years ago.
Mm-hmm.
When they were being helped.
So, oh my gosh.
That's just a sampling of ideas.
Yeah.
Of, of where chaplains can andshould serve.
Our, our job, if any of yourpeople are interested in
becoming a chaplain, is to helpyou answer a couple of questions
(52:28):
and, and let, and then closewith that.
Um, first question is to try andunderstand what God is saying to
you right now about what hewants you to do.
That takes some discernment todo that.
And then the second part of thatquestion is, what are we gonna
do about it?
Because there's no lone Rangersin Christianity.
We're called to be the family ofGod, the body of Christ.
(52:49):
I.
That doesn't look like a bunchof lone rangers out there doing
our own thing.
It means that we're part of thefamily.
We go on mission together, likethe family on mission with Jesus
to the people that he's sendingus to.
So when we think about what Godis saying to you about what he
wants you to do, that's askingyou, who are you primarily gonna
be serving?
Is it the incarcerated?
(53:09):
Is it people that have beenreleased from prison that are in
supervision?
They need help and assistance,getting an id, getting clothing,
getting a job, getting help,getting place to live, getting
food, getting training.
Maybe they need their GED,maybe.
Maybe they need to getvocational training.
Maybe they'd like to get aneducation or a degree, but they
don't have a means to do it.
(53:30):
How can we help'em do it?
Right?
Whatever your.
Your people group is, onceyou've identified, then how are
we gonna train you to get betterat serving that particular
people group with other peopleof faith that are gonna join
you?
So that's the one question.
And the second question, whichis probably more important even
than that one, is this one,which has to do with us making
(53:54):
continuous progress as abeliever until we take our final
breath.
And that is this question.
All of you.
This is a good place to closethat all of us should be asking.
Omar, you should be asking this.
I'm asking this of myself, and Iask all of your listeners to ask
this question of themselves.
(54:15):
Think deeply on this.
If I became the person that Godcreated me to be, what would
that look like?
How do I chart a course towardsmaking at least some progress at
(54:35):
becoming that person?
That's what our ministry is allabout.
So you're welcome to join us ifyou're interested.
Omar (54:45):
Amen.
Amen.
You know, I wanna thank you forsharing all that.
Thank you very much for yourtime.
And I pray that maybe some ofthese listeners that hear this,
uh, interview, uh, they, if it,you know, God's placed it on
their heart.
They're serious about this.
They will definitely look into,uh, Christian Chaplains and
coaching org.
They'll go on there and get moreinformation about your ministry,
(55:07):
uh, the process, therequirements, and, and all that
entails.
Uh, but with that, uh, would youmind closing this out in a
prayer?
Jim (55:13):
Sure.
I'd love to.
Omar, thanks for having metoday.
This is a, this was a greatconversation and I, I feel like
I talked a little bit more thanI intended to, but you kept
asking me questions.
That was a good chaplain of workright there, brother.
You're asking questions.
Omar (55:27):
Thank you.
Thank you.
Jim (55:27):
Yeah.
Dear, dear Lord, I, I thank youfor Omar and, uh, the life that
he has led, the transition thatyou have led him through the
change of heart and mind andattitude and mission in
ministry.
That has allowed him to be agenuine servant of Jesus Christ
these days with a desire to helpothers make progress.
I pray for the success of thispodcast and his work in mission
(55:49):
and ministry.
I pray for him personally to beable to make that.
Progress that will allow him toget his associates and his
bachelor's and his masters andhis board certification and all
of those things, Lord, that'sjust gonna help him become the
person that you're creating himto be as a chaplain and minister
of the Lord Jesus Christ.
(56:10):
Lord, we thank you for all ofthis.
We pray for the listeners.
We pray for those that aresuffering bondage, that you
break those shackles of bondageand set them free through Jesus
Christ and in His name we pray.
Amen.
Amen.
Amen.
And
Omar (56:24):
with that, we're gonna get ready to wrap up.
Uh, Matthew four 16 reads, thepeople who sat in darkness have
seen a great light, and uponthose who sat in the region and
shadow of death, light hasdawned alongside my brother, Jim
Kirkland, I'm, Omar Calvillo Andwe are Wrong To Strong.
I went on a men's retreatweekend.
(00:01):
And at that retreat I had anencounter with the Holy Spirit
that just brought me to myknees, brought tears to my eyes.
I came home from that weekendchanged.
It was only a couple years afterthat I started volunteering as a
chaplain So friends of mine thatwere very involved with inside
(00:23):
the prison ministry needed.
Help for that team, and theywanted me to be on the team with
them, and I did not want to go.
My attitude towards those thatwere incarcerated was lock'em up
and throw away the key.
They deserve to be there.
They should be punished for whatthey did.
I didn't want anything to dowith them.
I was totally ignoring thescripture where Jesus said, when
(00:45):
I was in prison, you visited meand And so kicking and
screaming.
I got dragged into the prison onthis team and I met murderers,
rapists, drug lords, gangleaders.
Worst of the worst, really, andI saw several of them be
influenced by Jesus Christ in away that it made a visible
(01:06):
difference in their life.
And they came to Jesus and gavethemselves to Jesus.
But that experience absolutelyrocked my world.
It changed my life.
And it is the reason why I madeprogress at becoming an ordained
chaplain and making chaplaincy amajor part of my ministry.
(01:41):
From the city of Chicago, a citymost recently known for its
crime and violence.
On this podcast, we will besharing stories of redemption
from individuals raised in thetough streets of Chicago and
from around the country.
Some of them were gang members,drug dealers, incarcerated
victims, and perpetrators ofviolence.
(02:02):
Listen to my guests as theyshare their experiences,
struggles, trauma, but also thestrength, hope, faith and
perseverance, these havedeveloped in them to keep
pushing and moving forward inlife.
Tune in to hear how their liveshave gone from darkness to light
and from wrong to strong.
Omar (02:22):
Uh, hello everyone, and welcome to another, uh, episode
of Wrong to Strong Chicago.
I'm your host.
Uh, my name's Omar Calvio, uh,and this afternoon.
It's actually, uh, on a Sundayfirst, uh, podcast interview
I've done on a Sunday, and I'mdoing it on my phone.
Uh, so I hope it comes out well.
It looks like so far, so good.
Uh, but I'm here with, uh, uh,the executive Director of
(02:44):
Christian Chaplains andCoaching.
His name is Jim Kirkland.
Uh, he's been, uh, he's aretired pastor who was doing
pastoral ministry for over 35years, also as a Christian, uh,
life and also in Christian lifecoaching.
Also as in chaplain ministry,but there's more information
that he's gonna share as we goalong.
(03:06):
Uh, but I'd like to work on tothe podcast.
They, they, they thank you forbeing out here.
Jim (03:09):
Thank you, Omar.
It's really, really good to bewith you today and a message to
you from all of our staff thatwe really love you and we're
really proud of you.
And we're really glad to callyou one of our chaplains.
Omar (03:23):
Hmm.
Amen.
Amen.
And, uh, yeah, the, the, the wayI met him was, uh, through
Christian Chaplains andcoaching.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, I was introduced to thisministry, uh, from a friend of
my wife, uh, her name's SarahGonzalez.
Uh, Sarah is involved in, uh,cook County, a prison ministry.
Um, she's the one that got meconnected with, uh, Nia House
National Ministries, and I'mvolunteering in Cook County.
(03:45):
Uh, but through her she told me,Hey Omar, you should look into,
um, this ministry.
So I went online.
Started looking into it.
I, I watched some of their, uh,videos describing the program.
Uh, I joined and I took it.
It definitely blessed me.
So I, I want to thank you forthe work that you're doing, and,
uh, eventually I want to getinto how you got into it and
(04:06):
what exactly is Christianchapter and coaching, and
definitely want the listeners tohear about it and maybe who
knows?
God willing, they have thatheart, that desire to serve in
such a capacity.
Maybe they could join along towhat you guys have, uh, started.
Sure thing.
Alright, uh, uh, uh, you, you,you wanna tell us, uh, like I
said, we wanna get into how yougot there, but man, let, let's
(04:26):
go to the beginning.
Uh, you want to tell us, uh,what part of the country did you
grew up in and how was life foryou?
As, as, as, as a young kid, youknow?
Jim (04:34):
Oh boy.
You're going.
I mean, I'm 67 years old, sowe're going back a long time.
Way back when Moby Dick wasstill a guppy, basically.
So, no, I was born in, uh, Ohio.
And, um, the unexpected additionto a family that already had
three children.
My brothers and sister were, uh,10 and 12 and 14 years older
(04:58):
than me, so I was the accidentalgift to the family.
Uh, but my father died when Iwas three years old.
Uh, which really, of course, asyou can imagine, threw a real
monkey wrench into our.
Into our whole workings of ourfamily.
We were pretty poor at thattime.
Uh, didn't really have resourcesfinancially.
Mom was desperate.
(05:20):
Uh, I could tell you somestories about what we went
through back at that time, butbottom line is, is my mom, uh,
about, I.
When I was five years old, met aa, a man who was a principal of
a school.
An educator, made good money.
She was desperate for financialsupport, uh, and reached out to
him and, and they ended upgetting married.
(05:42):
And, uh, when I was going intothe fourth grade, he was offered
a job in Nova Scotia, Canada.
And so he moved us to NovaScotia when I was in the fourth
grade.
And so that's where I grew upall the way through my first
year of college.
(06:02):
Uh, in, I don't know if you'veever been to Nova Scotia, but
you can Google it.
It's a beautiful place.
Omar (06:07):
Um, you, you, you know what could, could, could, could
you describe it maybe a littlebit like for our listeners?
Well, Nova Scotia.
Jim (06:12):
Nova Scotia is a gale, uh, word.
It means New Scotland.
It was settled originally by theScottish people way many, many
years ago.
But the Highlands of CapeBritain, Nova Scotia looked so
much like the highlands ofScotland, is that they called it
New Scotland, which is NovaScotia.
So there's a big Celtic orCeltic influence there,
(06:33):
bagpipers and the kilt wearingpeople.
And, um.
Uh, it's just a lot of music andIrish and Scotch influence and,
uh, it was quite an interesting,wonderful place, uh, for me to
grow up.
I loved the people there and insome ways miss it, but as, as,
as my life continued, uh, mystepfather.
(06:56):
Uh, in terms of influence on mylife was an abusive alcoholic.
Now, for you and yourconstituents, especially those
that have been incarcerated,that have responded to whatever
victim they are a victims of,right?
We're all victims of something.
We all are.
And, uh, all of us respond tothe negative things that happen
(07:19):
to us.
Uh, mostly we respond innegative ways.
Uh, some of us commit crimes andsome of us don't.
Uh, or some of us at least don'tget caught on committing a
crime.
But for me, the, the, uh, abuse,verbal abuse, a little physical
abuse, no sexual abuse, um,fights with my brother, uh, my,
(07:43):
my next brother who was stillyoung enough to still be at
home.
Um.
It was a very challenging lifeand, um, I eventually got to the
point in Nova Scotia where I hadthought I was gonna go into the
Canadian military.
And that's a whole long storythat we really don't have time
to get into.
But that did not work out.
(08:04):
And, uh, by the time I finishedmy, uh, first year of college at
St.
Mary's University in Halifax,Nova Scotia, um.
I was just kind of lost, um,didn't know what I was going to
do.
Uh, career choice that I thoughtI was gonna follow up on did not
work out.
But my brother Bill, who was aVietnam veteran and, uh, and as
(08:26):
we're celebrating or rememberingMemorial Day this weekend and
the lives that were lost frompeople that wore the uniform of
the United States, it's.
Um, probably good to remember tosay thanks to them.
Uh, but my brother was a, uh,Vietnam vet and, uh, decorated
Silver Star, two Bronze StarsCombat v Purple Heart.
(08:48):
Um, I mean, he really saw actionin Vietnam and, but he had moved
back to the, back to Ohio and,uh, he was in the Kent State
area where Kent State Universityis located.
He had gotten married and Italked to him on the phone and I
told him how lost I was.
I didn't know what I was gonnado, and he said, well, why don't
you just move.
In with us.
Why don't you just come back toOhio?
(09:09):
And I did.
And I went to Kent State and I'mso glad I did because that's
where I met my girlfriend.
Uh, and we've now been marriedfor 47 years.
Wow.
But I wasn't raised in aChristian household.
We did not know Jesus.
I didn't know about Jesus.
I just know that Jesus hadsomething to do with the
celebration of Christmas.
And uh, and the reason why wegot presents on Christmas day
(09:31):
and, and somehow.
He was related to Santa Claus,but I didn't know really much
about that.
But after I met my wife and uh,we spent one year at Kent State
and then.
Both of us were unsure what wewere gonna do.
I was offered a job in Michigan.
She dropped outta school with meand we eloped and ran away and
(09:51):
went to Michigan and took onthis job and met, uh, a new
friend in Michigan.
I.
Never forget this man.
He's gone now, he's gone to bewith the Lord.
His name was Billy Brickey, theold Southern Baptist fellow that
made friends with Virginia andme and invited us to his home
for dinner one time.
And, uh, before he invited us tochurch, he invited us to his
(10:13):
home.
I.
And, uh, his small group fromchurch was there and we enjoyed
a meal.
And after the meal was over,I'll never forget that, uh,
they, they just got Bibles outand decided they were gonna have
a Bible study.
And I, we had never done thatbefore and neither my wife nor
me, uh, with the dessert camethe Bibles and the Bible
discussion and the conversation,and they were wondering what we
(10:35):
believe and we shared the, well,we don't.
Really believe what you believe.
And they were okay with that.
They, they invited us back fordinner the next Sunday too.
And we went and we became dearfriends with them and eventually
we started going to church whilemy wife and I were living
together in sin.
And, uh, they did not judge usfor that.
That still stands out to me evento this day.
(10:56):
Right?
They didn't, they weren'tjudgmental.
They just loved us in where,right, where we were.
Anyway, long story short, westarted going to church with
them.
My wife and I, uh.
I dunno.
Maybe the third or fourth Sundaythat we were there, we were
during an altar call that, uh,pastor Larry Lawrence from
Taylor Center Baptist Church.
It's amazing.
I can even still remember thename.
(11:17):
It's been a long time ago.
That was back in 1978 when thisall happened.
Um,
Omar (11:22):
that's when I was born.
Jim (11:23):
Yeah, that's, you were born 1978.
Okay.
Omar (11:26):
Yeah.
Yes.
Jim (11:26):
Okay.
Well, so we accepted the altarcall.
My wife and I grabbed our handsand grabbed, held hands, and we
walked.
We walked down together and mybrother, bill and his wife were
there too.
We, all four of us, acceptedChrist together that day.
Uh, and then a few, a coupleweeks later, uh, we walked the
aisle again when we went downthere to, uh, go and get
(11:49):
baptized in front of the church.
And so all four of us, we werebaptized together, which was
kind of a neat thing, you know,that happened.
Um, then, then after we becamebelievers, that's when my.
When our new friends led byBilly Brickey began to share
with us what the Scripture'steaching was about sex and
marriage and the importance ofobeying the commands of Christ.
(12:13):
And what, what I really takefrom that, which I, I hope your
listeners take from this too, isthat as believers, we're not
here to disciple the unsaved.
We're here to show them what achange to life in Jesus Christ
can look like.
And if the Holy Spirit drawsthem near to Jesus and they get
saved, then we can disciplethem.
And that's what these people didfor us.
They didn't start directing usto obey Jesus until we believed
(12:37):
Jesus.
Hmm.
That's when they began todisciple us and it had a real
impact on us and we took it toheart.
And so my wife and I, althoughwe were living in the same
house, we did have two bedrooms.
And so I moved out of thebedroom that she was in and we
slept in separate rooms forseveral weeks, which was really
hard to do when we're, whenwe're used to sleeping, you
know, together.
Yeah.
(12:57):
Um, but we, we did our best tohonor, uh, what we were learning
from scripture and from ourChristian friends on how to live
the Christian life.
We, we stayed celibate, uh,during that period of time.
We, we waited and then the timecame for us to get married on
November 4th, 1978.
Just recently born again,recently baptized, and then my
(13:19):
wife and I.
Walked to the aisle one moretime at the same church, and
that's when we were married.
And my brother Bill was my bestman at that wedding.
So that's the story of mysalvation.
Hmm.
However, I'll say that the.
Abuse that I took and believingthat I was never gonna be good
(13:41):
enough.
That nothing that I ever coulddo was ever gonna be right or
good enough.
If I would get a, a minus on agrade at school, it would be
how, you know, you're, you'reworthless.
How, why didn't you get an A?
So my whole upbringing with thisabusive of father was very, very
challenging and difficult forme.
And, and, uh, one of my brotherswas so, uh, rebellious and.
(14:06):
And, you know, and rightly so,it was a difficult life.
He'd lost his father.
He was angry with God, and, andhe hated our stepfather.
So there's nothing but fighting.
And then he took it out on me.
And so I had a lot of thatgrowing up.
And.
So I, I was always defensive andaggressive and abrasive and had
(14:26):
kind of the attitude, you know,tell me I can't do something.
Well hold my beer and watch thiswas kind of my attitude, right?
So, started my own company in1979, incorporated it in 1981,
was in financial servicesbusiness.
Um, investment management.
Went and became a stockbrokerand learned how to do those
kinds of things.
(14:47):
Um, calling myself a Christianbecause I was a believer in
Jesus, but I cannot say that Ihad actually changed my life.
Hmm.
My life didn't begin to changeuntil the Holy Spirit really got
a hold of my heart.
But that didn't happen fornearly 15 years.
Wow.
Uh, I was really self-servingand self-interested, and we had
(15:08):
children and I, I was as mean ofa father as my stepfather was
really, I didn't know how to bea dad.
And I regret that with my kidstoday and they'll, they'll tell
you that I'm the dad they havetoday is a different dad from
when they had, when they were,when they were younger because
the Holy Spirit has been and iscontinuing.
To change me into something new.
(15:30):
But there, there came a point intime where
I went on a men's retreatweekend.
Um, it was called The Way of Christ Weekend.
It was three days with, with menon a retreat.
And at that retreat I had anencounter with the Holy Spirit
that just brought me to myknees, brought tears to my eyes.
Uh, and that's,
(15:51):
I came home from that weekendchanged.
It was only a couple years afterthat
while I was really becoming more serious about dedicating my
life to Jesus and living it forhim.
Even in the business that I wasin,
I started
at that time
volunteering as a chaplain
and serving at a nursing home and going to visit people
in the, uh, police departmentand trying to work with the
(16:12):
sheriff's department and thatkind of thing.
But mostly it was nursinghomework that I was doing and.
I just started to feel anincreasing interest in call in
ministry.
So friends of mine that werevery involved with
something called Kairos, which is a
(16:35):
inside the prison ministry
where they actually go into a prison, maximum security
prison or a high securityprison, uh,
needed.
Help for that team, and theywanted me to be on the team with
them, and I did not want to go.
My attitude towards those thatwere incarcerated was lock'em up
and throw away the key.
They deserve to be there.
(16:56):
They should be punished for whatthey did.
I didn't want anything to dowith them.
I was totally ignoring thescripture where Jesus said, when
I was in prison, you visited meand
I was reminded of that by my Christian friends who said,
Jim, you you, you probably needto do this more for you.
Hmm than for anybody else.
And so kicking and screaming.
(17:17):
I got dragged into the prison onthis team
for Kairos
and I met murderers, rapists,drug lords gang leaders.
Worst of the worst, really,
that were approved to be on this weekend, or 40 inmates that
(17:39):
were involved on this weekend.
And I saw several of them beinfluenced by Jesus Christ in a
way that it made a visibledifference in their life.
And they came to Jesus and
gave Himself.
Gave themselves to Jesus.
And Omar, I know, I know.
You know something about thatexperience.
Yes.
(17:59):
But that experience absolutelyrocked my world.
It changed my life.
And it is the reason why I madeprogress at becoming an ordained
chaplain and making chaplaincy amajor part of my ministry.
Now, I tried to be a pastor too for several years.
(18:19):
I worked in several differentchurches as as a interim senior
pastor and a senior pastor andexecutive pastor.
And I got chewed up and spit outas a pastor because I, I believe
that the primary job of a pastorfound an Ephesians, which says
that the pastor and teacher whoequips the saints or believers
(18:42):
for ministry, and I waspastoring in churches that were
so stuck in their traditions.
And in being with each otherwhile ignoring those who don't
know Jesus, without a desire tolove people who live life
differently than they do,unwilling to serve the lost, um,
(19:04):
that I was unable to train themto serve the lost as because of
my experience inside the prison.
Had caused me to want them toparticipate in so that they
could receive the joy that Jesuspromised us if we're on mission
with him.
And that that changed the wholetrajectory of my faith and
belief system.
So, long story short, that thatnow put me on a path towards
(19:26):
being a pastor, which I failedat because I could not get the
saints that I was trying to leadto get off their butts in the
pews.
And get out there and do thework of Mission and Ministry,
which we're all called to do,they would rather sit on their
hind end and watch theprofessionals do all the work
for them instead ofparticipating in ministry.
(19:49):
While we did it together, I.
That was a challenge for me, butin chaplaincy, when I began
training others to serve aschaplains, come with me.
We'll get you credentialed as achaplain.
Let's get you deployed.
Let's show you how.
Let's do it together for awhile.
Let me get you placed inside ofa prisoner or a jail, or a
police department or firedepartment, or or a hospital or
(20:10):
a nursing home, or a hospicecompany, or an assisted living,
or a Celebrate Recovery ministryfor people that are suffering
from addictive behavior orbiblical victim.
Abuse, uh, uh, abuse, you know,how do you help people that have
been suffering from abuse alltheir life, sexual, um, physical
verbal abuse?
That, that are strugglingwithout even having a normal
(20:31):
life.
How can we chaplains get outthere and do it?
And what I discovered inteaching chaplaincy and showing
people how to do this ministryis that the mature believers of
a church who wanted to be onmission like the ambassador of
Jesus, that we are supposed tobe missionaries.
Working on the mission field,bringing the body of Christ to
(20:54):
show people what it looks likewhen the body of Christ shows up
in the middle of their crisis.
That's when that's when Istarted to really feel
successful at equipping theSaints for ministry.
So I got out of pastoring andchaplaincy became my focus, and
(21:16):
seven years ago this October, I.
At at age 60.
When I thought I was gonna beretiring, God put me back to
work where I'm working longerhours now than I've ever worked,
ever, you know, as executivedirector for Christian chaplains
and coaching, and our, ourmission is to restore chaplaincy
to biblical Christianity.
(21:38):
Our mission is to help.
Blue collar scholars, peoplethat have at least a high school
and some additional education,but they're learners.
They're wanting to learn.
They're willing to learn.
Let's get a path where they canlearn the basics of chaplaincy
and grief care and maybebiblical victim care prison
ministry.
They can learn some basics, getcredentialed as an ordained
(22:01):
chaplain.
Legally recognized as clergy,then continue their education
after that, throughcertifications and continuing
education and that kind ofthing.
That was our vision when westarted this ministry seven
years ago.
The reason why we feel it needsto be restored to biblical
Christianity is because althoughChaplaincy is a 1500 year old
(22:24):
Christian ministry, it's beenhijacked over the last 50 years.
By Universalists, secularhumanists, atheists, all kinds
of people who are callingthemselves chaplains and forcing
Christians to believe thingsthat are false in order to be a
chaplain.
And so we wanted to restorechaplaincy to our Christian
(22:47):
roots, our evangelical, biblicalChristian roots.
That's why we started theministry.
And so today it's been sevenyears.
We've got over 400 people thatwe've ordained as chaplains.
We are teaching all kinds ofcontinuing education courses and
certifications.
Certified Christian life coach,biblical victim training.
(23:09):
Grief training for, for yourchurch.
Uh, prison ministry courses,basics of chaplaincy courses.
We've got college courses.
We have a track for people toget their associate's degree
with chaplain emphasis,bachelor's degree in chaplaincy,
master's of degrees inchaplaincy with clinical,
pastoral education being taught.
(23:30):
These are all things that Godhas done in our ministry.
I'm gonna, I'm gonna close withthis and give you a chance to
get a word in edgewise here,Omar.
Uh.
God has been blessing us and wehave been increasing and
expanding our ministry so muchthat for me, it's so much bigger
(23:51):
than I imagined it seven yearsago that it's sort of been like
trying to get a drink of waterout of a fire hose and it is
knocking me.
Kind of what the old saying isARS and Over Tea Kettle, if you
know what I mean.
It's just knocking me backwardsoff my feet because the Lord has
just been growing our ministry.
We've grown our teaching team,we've got staff now of 10
(24:13):
people.
Uh, it's just crazy what God isdoing with our ministry.
And I would invite you to godeeper in your own education and
certifications and lifelonglearning.
And I would invite any of yourlisteners if, if, listen, if
you're truly a born againbeliever.
If you're truly a member of the,of the church, the big seed
(24:33):
church, the church universal,which is made up of every born
again believer in Jesus Christ,who was, who is and who will be.
That's the church.
And if you are a member of thatchurch and you believe what we
believe.
And you have a desire to becomethe hands and feet of Jesus and
learn how to serve effectivelyoutside of the church in secular
(24:56):
settings where the lost arehurting.
They're in the storm of life.
They don't know how to deal withtheir circumstances.
They're suffering post-traumaticstress disorder.
They're suffering grief.
They're suffering addictivebehavior, and they don't know
how to change their life.
But we can show them whatchanged life looks like and give
them hope.
(25:16):
And if you're interested in thatkind of ministry as a chaplain,
you go to our website and checkus out.
We'd love to help you.
We'd love to help you become achaplain, and then help you go
further for the rest of yourlife to learn how to be an
effective spiritual careprovider as a chaplain, wherever
it is that God calls you toserve.
(25:37):
Well, is that what you werelooking for, Omar?
Or was that a little bit toomuch?
Oh man, much.
Omar (25:41):
No, no, no.
That's great.
And actually I want get more.
It's so good.
I want a little more, uh, youknow, speaking of that, could
you share the website wherepeople could go to, to hear
about what you guys are doing?
Jim (25:50):
Yeah, that'll be Christian chaplains dot ORG.
Now remember, chaplain isspelled two different ways.
Charlie Chaplin.
The comedian of old is spelledC-H-A-P-L-I-N, Chaplin.
That's not how you spellchaplain.
Chaplain is spelledC-H-A-P-L-A-I-N.
(26:13):
So if you Google.
Christian chaplains.org.
You will find us.
In fact, if you do a search onGoogle for Christian chaplains
in general, you'll probably seeour website pop up as the first
or second choice because we'reone of.
Very few, if any, genuinelybiblical evangelical Christian
ministries that are dedicated tochaplaincy these days.
(26:36):
And so there's a few but notvery many.
But you'll find us just doing aGoogle search.
Go to the website.
You can find out what webelieve, what our membership
expectations are, what ourcourses are, and how you might
become one of our chaplains justlike you.
Omar, one of one of ourchaplains.
I get, I get to take credit foryou being one of ours and I'm
proud of you.
Omar (26:56):
Oh, no.
I, I thank you.
I'm truly blessed by it.
And, uh, I, I know this is justthe beginning.
I know you beforehand, before westarted recording, you're
challenging me to continueeducation.
Sure.
Why not?
Associates, bachelor's.
And just to keep going.
So I'm definitely, uh, lookingforward.
'cause, uh, I'm, uh, I, I heard,uh, somebody just told me
recently, what do you say?
Uh, uh, he said, uh, sometimes ateacher, always a student.
(27:19):
And that really stood out to melike, man, that, oh, that, that,
that, that should be us.
He says, sometimes a teacher,always a student.
That's, so that's,
Jim (27:27):
that's an excellent saying.
I love that.
Omar (27:29):
Yeah.
I just heard
Jim (27:30):
that recently.
I, yeah, go ahead.
That ties into what it means tobe a disciple.
The word disciple, it's from aGreek word es, it means disciple
or student, depending on whereyou're reading it.
When Jesus spoke the word inMatthew 28, go therefore, and
make disciples, baptizing them.
(27:52):
Who are them?
Disciples.
You can't be a disciple unlessyou're a believer.
So you gotta be, become abeliever first, right?
You have to believe before youbecome a disciple, baptizing
them, which is what is thatsymbolic of the life I was
living.
The person I used to be is dead.
I.
Buried with Jesus and raised tonew life.
(28:13):
That's what baptism is symbolicof.
I'm crucified with Christ.
I'm a new creation.
I'm raised to new life.
Then teaching them to obey allthat I've commanded.
So what is, what do you do whenyou're learning you're a
student?
Guess what?
That's what the word disciplemeans.
A student, a follower, alearner.
And so in Luke, after Jesus wentthrough the beatitudes.
(28:38):
He talked about don't livejudgmental condemning lives.
He said, live lives of lovingeverybody right where they are.
Love them where they are.
Be rich in spirit.
Although you may be poorfinancially, be rich in spirit.
Listen.
Don't be pointing fingers atwhat's wrong with everybody else
(29:02):
until you first address what'swrong with you, so that you can
show them what progress lookslike.
And he illustrated that with theparable of the blind man.
A blind man cannot lead a blindman.
Can he?
Won't they both fall into a pit?
Well, of course the answer tothat question is yes.
He goes on to say that astudent.
(29:25):
That same word, they'retranslated student or disciple,
depending on translation.
I don't mean to be preaching asermon for you here, but No, no,
but this is important on thesubject that you brought up of,
of learning, right?
Yes.
Because that's what we are asdisciples, we're learners.
He says A student is not abovehis teacher.
In other words.
You and I as students, we don'tknow more than the person who's
(29:49):
made more progress than us attaking the log from their own
eye.
I.
So that they can see clearly toremove the splinter from their
brother.
I we're, we're, we're talkingabout somebody who's a little
bit more advanced in walking thewalk.
We talk, showing us, teaching ushow to do that.
But us students, we're asstudents, we're not above our
teacher.
(30:09):
We don't know more than ourteacher, but it goes on to say,
but when fully trained, thestudent becomes like his
teacher.
Ultimately our teacher is RabbiJesus.
Amen.
Rabbi means teacher.
Yeah.
(30:29):
And we're the student and we'resupposed to be teaching each
other how to obey all thatChrist has commanded.
Right?
That's part of it.
But you can only do that to abeliever.
You can't do that to anonbeliever'cause they don't
believe it.
Why would they wanna follow itif they don't believe it?
And so, uh, put that another wayto just to close this out.
Um.
One of my seminary professors,when I was at Moody Theological
(30:51):
Seminary, I was working on mymaster's degree.
He illustrated that passage ofscripture by saying that a
student can learn the, here'sthe difference between being a
student and being a disciple,because both of them are
learners.
We can go to school and we canpass an exam by.
Correctly giving back to theteacher, the answers the teacher
(31:12):
is looking for.
That doesn't mean we become likethe teacher, right?
Doesn't necessarily mean that.
So he said to illustrate this,that a student can learn what
his teacher knows, but adisciple becomes what his
teacher is.
(31:34):
Amen.
So as learners.
Our goal in this life is to besteadily transformed and
conformed into the image andlikeness of Christ steadily over
time.
And how do I know, Omar, thatyou are not there yet?
Same way.
I know I'm not there yet.
You know why?
We're still breathing.
(31:54):
How was that?
We're still breathing.
Amen.
So we're not done yet, right?
Amen.
I'm 67 years old and I'm gettingready to start my doctorate.
Omar (32:04):
Wow.
Jim (32:05):
Only because why not?
What's stopping me?
The only thing stopping you orme from doing anything for Jesus
is between our ears.
That's the only thing stoppingany of us is the obstacles that
exist between our ears.
That little voice inside of ussaying, you can't do it.
You are not worthy.
You're never gonna be goodenough.
That's how I was raised, and theLord has delivered me from that
(32:30):
yoke of slavery and thank GodI'm now in a position to
encourage people like you tojoin me.
Come on, let's do this.
We can do this together.
Omar (32:38):
Amen.
Amen.
You know what, pastor, on thatnote, do you say a short prayer
for people who are strugglingwith that very same thing, like
you mentioned, that's what'shindering what's between the
ears.
And I know you said that theLord helped you overcome, but I
just feel like somebody maybeneeds a short prayer
specifically in that area tobreak, break from that.
Jim (32:59):
Listen.
Uh, yes.
Um, uh, Philippians, um, four12.
Um.
Tells us that we can do allthings through Christ who
strengthens us.
And that doesn't mean I can getanything I want in this life.
Lord, we, we don't wanna applythat scripture incorrectly, that
Pa Paul has told us there, ohLord.
(33:19):
And you have told us through hisword, that whether I'm rich or
poor.
Whether I have much or plenty,whether I am hungry or I am
full, whether I'm in prison orout of prison, no matter what I
am going through in this life, Ican endure anything through
Christ who strengthens me.
I, with Jesus can get throughthis.
(33:42):
I can endure through this.
I can make progress.
I can grow, I can improve, and Ipray, oh God.
Whatever it's, it is between theears of a listener to this
podcast who has up to this pointin life been handcuffed to the
(34:03):
lie of Satan, that they're notworthy, handcuffed to the lie of
Satan, that they can never bemade right.
They could never be forgiven.
They could never have a betterlife because they don't deserve
it.
I rebuke that now in the name ofJesus Christ, and I pray, oh
(34:25):
God, that those shackles will bereleased, that their prison door
will be opened, but they have towalk out of it.
And I pray, oh God, thatsomebody will hear this.
And make the choice to receiveyou for salvation, to receive
the forgiveness that only youcan give and decide to turn
(34:46):
their life over to you and startmaking progress at walking life
in a new way with your help andwith the help of fellow
believers.
And I ask this in the name ofJesus.
Amen.
Omar (34:58):
My name.
I thank you for that prayer and,and the reason I ask, not just
for the listeners, but even formyself, like when you said that
that's something that I believe.
Hinders me.
It's usually us stop stopping usfrom continuing to grow that
little boy.
So definitely I thank you forthat.
Uh, I, I, I wanna go back tosomething you shared that stood
out to me.
I had actually to write it down.
Uh, you said that the, before,that couple that introduced you
(35:22):
to, to Christ that brought youto church that said, you said
that before the church washospitality.
They invited you to their home.
I know hospitality's, uh, big Asfar as your, uh, uh, I believe
it's on the core values, if I'mnot mistaken.
So could, could you share aboutthat?
Because when you shared thatstory, I'm like, man, I wonder
if that's part of the reason whyhospitality is so big.
(35:43):
To, to, to you guys.
Jim (35:44):
It, it honestly is, um, we, we use a phrase called missional
community.
These days, there's a lot ofchurches and organizations that
practice something called smallgroup, especially in traditional
churches.
They, they have small groups,right?
They, they call it discipleship,but uh, mostly it isn't
discipleship because it's.
Well, all they're doing is samegroup of people year in and year
(36:05):
out, only meeting together andthey meet in their homes and
they pray together, which isgreat.
And they study the Bible andthey share food and they pray
for each other.
And then they come back togethernext week after church or
whenever they meet.
But unless we're on mission,outside of the context of
church, we're not reallylearning how to make disciples.
We're not learning how to sharethe gospel.
We're not learning how toproclaim.
(36:27):
And so.
Remind me your question again'cause I just, I just took a
left hand turn in my head andstarted going in the wrong
direction.
Yeah, yeah.
Omar (36:35):
Bring me back here, Omar, bring me back.
You, you, you mentioned that,that before they invited me to
church.
They invited me to the home.
Oh, the hospitality.
Jim (36:42):
Yes, yes, yes.
Yeah, absolutely.
So that's why we re we use theterm missional community where,
where believers are comingtogether.
In the context of hospitalityfor each other, yes, as
believers, but also beinghospitable to those who don't
believe, like that hospitalitythat was extended to Virginia
(37:03):
and I, who, as I look back onit, we were living an abhorrent
lifestyle to them.
We were living in sin, we werehaving sex together.
We even had had an abortion backat that time, which is a whole
completely other topic, right?
Yeah.
Uh, and they knew all aboutthat, and I know now that
bothered them.
They never let us know that itbothered them because we weren't
(37:26):
believers yet.
And so by extending hospitalityto us in a culturally sensitive
way, in a relevant way, where wewere.
We weren't made to feel like wewere being judged or condemned
for the lifestyle that we werein, and they trusted the Holy
Spirit to draw us to God withoutthem feeling like they have to
(37:46):
twist our arm to accept Jesus.
They gave us that hospitality.
So what?
What do we do in hospitality?
Well, several things.
One.
Is wherever we go as the body ofChrist, we're creating a
hospitable environment, a safeplace where people can feel
like, you know, I can talk toyou about anything and you're
(38:12):
not judging me.
Everywhere I go, I'm beingjudged everywhere.
People are telling me I'm this,or telling me that I'm that, or
I'm not gonna ever be this, orI'm not gonna ever be that, or
This life that I'm leading ishorrendous.
I'm judged everywhere.
And especially those that areincarcerated, everybody's
(38:35):
judging them.
Nobody's loving them.
So in hospitality, we'reextending that ministry of
presence where we're genuinelypresent.
We're genuinely interested, andjust like you've been interested
in my story today, right?
In hospitality, we're interestedin their story.
We wanna know more about you.
(38:55):
What is your life like?
How, how did you get to whereyou are right now?
What, okay, well this is whereyou are.
What do you think you did rightso far?
What would you change if youcould change anything?
You know, those are the kind ofquestions that we wanna be
asking people and just let themtalk it out.
Tell me your story.
What was your life like?
What was your house like?
What was your, what kind offoods did you grow up eating?
(39:18):
You know, what was your culturelike?
Really?
Oh my gosh, I can't even imaginethat.
Right?
And then, and tell me more aboutthat.
That that's hospitality.
That's where people savetalking.
Through that ministry ofpresence, while we learn to ask
questions, we stop trying to fixpeople because we can't fix
people.
Only God can fix people andbeing hospitable right with them
(39:44):
right where they are outside ofthe church and trusting Jesus
through that hospitality to drawthem or repel them.
And brother.
They will either be drawn toJesus or they'll be repelled by
Jesus, and we do not havecontrol over that.
So if they're repelled by Jesusand they never wanna talk to us,
(40:09):
then Jesus said, shake that dustoff your feet.
Go to the next one, and keepbringing the hand of fellowship
to these people and love them asthey are.
That's the commands of Jesus,but those who are attracted to
Jesus.
Who become saved now they'repart of our family.
(40:30):
And we begin to disciple thoseby doing life with them and
teaching them and loving them,and, and now gently correcting
them from the word of Godwithout being judgmental or
condemning about it.
So that's hospitality and that'swhy it's such an important part
of our ministry.
Omar (40:46):
And I think that ties in perfectly to one of your, um, I
would say a model of yours thatreally spoke to me, uh, as a, a
make a friend.
Be your friend and help leadthat friend to Christ.
Amen.
And that really like, like,spoke to me, especially in
regards to, uh, uh, one of theother things that, that, uh,
stood out is no proselytizing,basically trying to convert
(41:08):
somebody.
And just like you mentioned,just get to know the person.
Like, uh, I, I think I even, oneof the questions when I filed
my, uh.
Was it my report or the, that Ihad to turn into you?
The paper?
Yeah.
Uh, that's what I wrote down.
Yeah.
The paper.
One of the things that thatstood out to me is, uh, usually
in, in the past if somebody cameto me with a, with a belief that
(41:29):
was contrary to mine, to, to, tomy belief, or they were
attacking my faith or trying to,uh, convert me in a sense to
whatever they believe, I wouldautomatically tune them out.
In my mind, like I'm just like,I'm not gonna listen to them.
I don't want to hear what theygotta say.
But now my mindsets shift.
Well, man, let, let me listen tothe person, let me get to know
them.
(41:49):
Let let me get to know why theybelieve what they believe.
And just like sincerely, likelisten, get to know them and
just maybe get a chance tobuild, like you mentioned, a
friend, a friendship, or atleast o uh, open line of
communication.
So that's definitely somethingthat's stood out to me now where
(42:10):
I was telling my wife, I thinkit was even yesterday.
Like, man, maybe one day I'mgonna do podcasts with people
that believe opposite of what Ibelieve.
Like maybe, maybe they don'tbelieve at all.
Why, why, why, why can't I havesit down and have a conversation
with'em and hear them outwithout me trying to convert
them or them trying to make medoubt my faith?
(42:32):
But man, just to get to knowyou, I, I want to know what led
you to where you're at now.
Sure.
Why don't you believe, or why doyou believe what you believe?
That's definitely one thingthat, that I got from, from your
ministry.
Jim (42:43):
Yeah.
Thank you for that.
And yeah, that make a friend bea friend and, uh, draw your
friend to Christ.
You, you might have to be afriend for a long time before
you get an opportunity to drawthem to Christ.
And there's a reason why theBible says that the road is
narrow that leads to heaven, andfew will find it.
And the path to hell is wide.
(43:08):
It's a multi-lane highway andmany are on it.
We don't have control over whoends up on the narrow path and
who ends up on the wide road,but we do have control over
extending hospitality to thecollective.
Everybody like the Acts, chaptertwo verses 37 to 47, it talked
about what the original churchlooked like as they did life
(43:30):
together as the body of Christamong nonbelievers, who many of
them were trying to kill them.
Roman society was a dangerousplace for a Christian to live
back at that time.
But the scripture goes on to saythat they had favor with all the
people.
It was the Christians that werecreating the hospitals.
It was the Christians who weredoing the orphanages.
(43:53):
It was the Christians who werevisiting people in jails and
prisons.
It was the Christians who werehelping the folks next.
Door who don't believe, who justlost their husband in a disaster
and had children at home thatthey couldn't feed.
It was the Christians who weredoing that, and they had favor
with all the people.
And because of that, God addedto their number daily, those who
(44:17):
were being saved in spite of thepersecution.
So that's our mission.
Make a friend be a friend.
And draw your friend to Christif the Lord draws them near
right.
Amen.
And then do life with them.
Amen.
Amen.
Adopt them into Amen.
The family.
Amen.
And now we're on the same team,brother.
(44:39):
All right.
Let's do this together.
Let's help each other.
Let's make progress,
Omar (44:43):
man.
Uh, one of the things that stoodout too is, uh, we, we, we can't
save nobody.
It's the work of the HolySpirit.
And a lot of times, man, if Idon't share the gospel like with
them, like, man, I, I, I'm gonnabe part of them, not.
Coming to Christ or them notcoming to salvation.
Yeah.
And I, I love that that tooklike, almost like the, I would
say like the pressure off in asense where Sure man, whether I
(45:05):
say it or not, like I can't savethem.
It's gonna be a work of the HolySpirit and being okay with it.
'cause I believe you said theygotta, uh, give you permission
to share the gospel.
Jim (45:15):
Well, in a secular setting.
Right, A prison or a hospital.
Yeah, secular.
Yes.
Or veterans administration ormilitary or what have you.
If we're going like a contactevangelist, door to door,
telling people about Jesus,leaning in and saying, Hey, you
gotta know about Jesus.
If you died today, do you knowif we're gonna go to heaven or
hell?
Well, I suppose that might havea place, and there are
evangelists that I.
They say they get some successin doing it that way, but as
(45:38):
chaplains, we rather lean backin a comfortable chair and
invite them into a friendship,right?
We invite, we extend thehospitality, we make them feel.
Safe telling us about theirlife.
And it's amazing how many timespeople will begin to ask us
about the hope that they see inus.
I, I wanna, the last scriptureI'll share with you on that
(46:00):
subject Yeah.
Is, is the, what I believe isthe, on this subject is the most
chaplain verse, although the,the word chaplain doesn't appear
in the Bible.
That first was used in the fifthcentury, like 500 years later.
But first Peter, chapter three,verse 15, I believe, is the most
chaplain verse you're ever gonnafind.
First Peter, chapter three,verse 15.
(46:21):
We ask our chaplains to memorizethat scripture and meditate on
it because it says this, honorin your hearts Christ, the Lord
as holy.
Holy, not.
It doesn't mean often what wethink it means.
It means to be set apartexclusively for the plan and
purpose of God.
And Jesus did that perfectly.
(46:43):
We do it imperfectly, but Jesuswas perfect in His holiness,
only doing what the Fatherwanted him to do.
He was holy.
And we are, we are being told tohonor in our hearts Christ.
The Lord is holy, which impliesthat we're gonna be living our
lives differently, setting Jesusup in our lives as the holy one
(47:08):
of God who we are dedicating ourlives to living for, for the
rest of our lives going forward.
And if we do that, you'd think,you'd think, wouldn't you, that
something would be different.
When people see us in action,when people talk to us, when
people share a meal with us,when people sit down across from
us and have a conversation,you'd think there'd be something
(47:29):
different.
So that scripture says, honor inyour heart Christ.
The Lord is holy.
Always being prepared to make adefense.
Now, here's where the, the doorto door contact evangelists stop
and they'll quote that scriptureand say, you see there?
I have to go and tell everybodyabout Jesus, whether they wanna
(47:50):
hear it or not, but it doesn'tstop there.
Always being prepared to make adefense to anyone who asks you
don't go too quickly in yourmind here.
(48:13):
I.
Always being prepared to make adefense to anyone who asks you.
We gotta be waiting for that inour hospitality.
We gotta be patient in ourhospitality and ask us for what
it tells us to anyone who asksyou for the reason, for the hope
(48:36):
they see in you yet.
Do it.
That is make your defense withgentleness and peace.
That's a chaplain.
That's the Ministry ofHospitality, and that takes
learning and experience,practical guidance, continuing
(49:02):
education, certifications,action, reflection,
self-awareness, spiritualdisciplines, and all of the
above in order for all of us aschaplains to get.
Better and better and betterover time at this wonderful
craft of chaplaincy that we canlead people to Christ through
(49:22):
without pushing our faith onthem uninvited.
And I've saved more people as achaplain than I did as a pastor.
Well, Jesus has saved morepeople through my ministry as a
chaplain than he saved throughmy ministry as a pastor.
So I just leave it at that.
Omar (49:41):
Amen.
You know, I, I know we touched alittle bit on prison ministry as
far as the chaplain in prisons.
What other areas are, are, arechaplains, uh, needed, you know,
for somebody that's gonna listento this and maybe they're
interested and what other arelike the places where chaplains
are?
Jim (49:56):
Mm.
Well, I mean, I'll give you a,a, a, I'll get my machine gun
out and give you a machine gunkind of listing of, of areas
Veterans administration,hospitals.
Uh, department of Defense formilitary.
We've got chaplains that are nowin the military, uh, police
departments, fire departments,um, state prisons, federal
prisons.
(50:17):
Uh, ministries that are workingwith the jails and the prisons
where they're sending volunteersin to work, chaplains can be
involved in that ministry.
Uh, you've got biblical victimcare, you've got child abuse
ministry, you've got, uh,alcohol and drug and other
addictive behavior recovery.
Ministries like CelebrateRecovery.
(50:37):
We have quite a few chaplainsthat are involved in Celebrate
Recovery.
We've got chaplains that areinvolved in ministry to
non-English speaking people whoare living in the United States.
Um, and they, they do an amazingministry.
They hook up with English as asecond language or ESL, where
they'll have a church team thatcomes in and invites these
people into a hospitablerelationship where they share
(50:59):
meals and.
They're teaching them how tospeak and engage with English
while loving them as a missionalcommunity that is on mission for
Jesus, to show these people whatit looks like to be part of the
body of Christ.
So they're just being loved intothe presence of Jesus without
forcing Jesus.
And they use English as a secondlanguage, as a means for doing
that.
There's chaplains that are doingthat ministry, um.
(51:23):
Goodness sakes.
We, we've got chaplains that areinvolved with wayward youth, uh,
juveniles that are, uh, comingfrom broken homes, and they're
upset and they're angry andthey're lashing out and they're
getting in trouble.
They're in trouble with the law.
They're in trouble at school.
Parents are not home when thebus takes them home.
So their current situationdoesn't allow them to be taken
home by the bus.
(51:44):
So they have to go to a, theyhave to go kind of a, to a
halfway house or some interimstop until their parents are
home.
You got chaplains up in Holland,Michigan that are doing an
amazing ministry, hard HardwickMinistries.
It's just amazing the workthey're doing for wayward
children.
Uh, and now they've got peoplethat have become chaplains that
are serving in that ministrythat were troubled youth back
(52:06):
10, 12 years ago.
Mm-hmm.
When they were being helped.
So, oh my gosh.
That's just a sampling of ideas.
Yeah.
Of, of where chaplains can andshould serve.
Our, our job, if any of yourpeople are interested in
becoming a chaplain, is to helpyou answer a couple of questions
(52:28):
and, and let, and then closewith that.
Um, first question is to try andunderstand what God is saying to
you right now about what hewants you to do.
That takes some discernment todo that.
And then the second part of thatquestion is, what are we gonna
do about it?
Because there's no lone Rangersin Christianity.
We're called to be the family ofGod, the body of Christ.
(52:49):
I.
That doesn't look like a bunchof lone rangers out there doing
our own thing.
It means that we're part of thefamily.
We go on mission together, likethe family on mission with Jesus
to the people that he's sendingus to.
So when we think about what Godis saying to you about what he
wants you to do, that's askingyou, who are you primarily gonna
be serving?
Is it the incarcerated?
(53:09):
Is it people that have beenreleased from prison that are in
supervision?
They need help and assistance,getting an id, getting clothing,
getting a job, getting help,getting place to live, getting
food, getting training.
Maybe they need their GED,maybe.
Maybe they need to getvocational training.
Maybe they'd like to get aneducation or a degree, but they
don't have a means to do it.
(53:30):
How can we help'em do it?
Right?
Whatever your.
Your people group is, onceyou've identified, then how are
we gonna train you to get betterat serving that particular
people group with other peopleof faith that are gonna join
you?
So that's the one question.
And the second question, whichis probably more important even
than that one, is this one,which has to do with us making
(53:54):
continuous progress as abeliever until we take our final
breath.
And that is this question.
All of you.
This is a good place to closethat all of us should be asking.
Omar, you should be asking this.
I'm asking this of myself, and Iask all of your listeners to ask
this question of themselves.
(54:15):
Think deeply on this.
If I became the person that Godcreated me to be, what would
that look like?
How do I chart a course towardsmaking at least some progress at
(54:35):
becoming that person?
That's what our ministry is allabout.
So you're welcome to join us ifyou're interested.
Omar (54:45):
Amen.
Amen.
You know, I wanna thank you forsharing all that.
Thank you very much for yourtime.
And I pray that maybe some ofthese listeners that hear this,
uh, interview, uh, they, if it,you know, God's placed it on
their heart.
They're serious about this.
They will definitely look into,uh, Christian Chaplains and
coaching org.
They'll go on there and get moreinformation about your ministry,
(55:07):
uh, the process, therequirements, and, and all that
entails.
Uh, but with that, uh, would youmind closing this out in a
prayer?
Jim (55:13):
Sure.
I'd love to.
Omar, thanks for having metoday.
This is a, this was a greatconversation and I, I feel like
I talked a little bit more thanI intended to, but you kept
asking me questions.
That was a good chaplain of workright there, brother.
You're asking questions.
Omar (55:27):
Thank you.
Thank you.
Jim (55:27):
Yeah.
Dear, dear Lord, I, I thank youfor Omar and, uh, the life that
he has led, the transition thatyou have led him through the
change of heart and mind andattitude and mission in
ministry.
That has allowed him to be agenuine servant of Jesus Christ
these days with a desire to helpothers make progress.
I pray for the success of thispodcast and his work in mission
(55:49):
and ministry.
I pray for him personally to beable to make that.
Progress that will allow him toget his associates and his
bachelor's and his masters andhis board certification and all
of those things, Lord, that'sjust gonna help him become the
person that you're creating himto be as a chaplain and minister
of the Lord Jesus Christ.
(56:10):
Lord, we thank you for all ofthis.
We pray for the listeners.
We pray for those that aresuffering bondage, that you
break those shackles of bondageand set them free through Jesus
Christ and in His name we pray.
Amen.
Amen.
Amen.
And
Omar (56:24):
with that, we're gonna get ready to wrap up.
Uh, Matthew four 16 reads, thepeople who sat in darkness have
seen a great light, and uponthose who sat in the region and
shadow of death, light hasdawned alongside my brother, Jim
Kirkland, I'm, Omar Calvillo Andwe are Wrong To Strong.
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