February 5, 2024 • 41 mins
“Every place has a queer history.” Those are some of the impactful words shared by our guest today, Fulbright 2022-2023 U.S. Student Researcher to Chile, Sam Apostolopoulos. Sam’s Fulbright project focuses on understanding the legal history of LGBTQ+ rights in Chile and comparing that with the history of LGBTQ+ legal frameworks in the United States. Through this conversation, Sam shares a great deal of insights about how LGBTQ+ legal rights evolved in Chile, the discourse used to protect and advocate for these rights, the challenges that the queer community faced during eras such as the Pinochet dictatorship, and where things stand now in the country. Sam also touches a bit on this legal history in the U.S. including a court case involving a nonbinary person that occurred 400 years ago! In this way, his message is clear. There is queer history everywhere, and we can all play a part in remembering, reviving, and sustaining it!
Another important aspect of this conversation is the way that Sam’s project also works to interrupt existing narratives of the United States’s relationship to LGBTQ+ rights. The U.S. has often attempted to portray itself as a beacon of queer and trans rights that other countries should follow, despite the U.S.’s own record of lack of protections and attacks on its own LGBTQ+ community, and the fact that nations it tries to advise sometimes have stronger systems. In the case of Sam, he shows that Chile often has legalized protections for queer and trans people before the United States, and to this day offers greater federal legal support for the LGBTQ+ community. Furthermore, Sam also articulates how the embrace of LGBTQ+ protections in Chile as human rights and the U.S.’s resistance towards that framework have helped exacerbate some of these differences. So the question remains: what is it that the United States can learn from other countries such as Chile? We hope you enjoy this episode!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sper (00:06):
Welcome to another episode of Fulbright
forward a diversity podcast. I'myour host for today Jeremy
common Sperling, the Fulbrightdiversity and inclusion liaison
for programs in the WesternHemisphere, otherwise known as
the Americas and the Caribbean.
Every place has a queer history.
Those are some of the impactfulwords shared by our guests
today. Fulbright 2022 to 2023,US student researcher to Chile,
(00:30):
Sam Apostel opolis. Sam'sFulbright project focuses on
understanding the legal historyof LGBTQ plus rights in Chile,
and comparing that with thehistory of LGBTQ plus legal
frameworks in the United States.
Through this conversation, Samshares a great deal of insight
about how LGBTQ plus legalrights evolved in Chile. The
discourse used to protect anadvocate for these rights, the
(00:52):
challenges that the queercommunity faced during era such
as the Pinochet dictatorship,and where things stand now in
the country. Sam also touches abit on the legal history in the
United States, including a courtcase that involved a non binary
person that occurred 400 yearsago. In this way, his message is
clear. There is queer historyeverywhere, and we can all play
(01:13):
a part in remembering, revivingand sustaining it. Another
important aspect of thisconversation is the way that
Sam's project works to interruptexisting narratives of the
United States its relationshipto LGBTQ plus rights. The United
States has often attempted toportray itself on a global scale
as a beacon of queer and transrights that other countries
(01:36):
should follow, despite the UShis own record of lack of
protections and attacks on itsown LGBTQ plus community, and
the fact that many nations ittries to advise have better
systems. In the case of Sam, heshows that Chile often is legal
as protections for queer andtrans people while before the
United States, and to this dayoffers greater federal legal
(01:56):
support for the LGBTQ pluscommunity. Furthermore, Sam also
articulates how the embrace ofLGBTQ plus protections in Chile
as human rights and the UnitedStates his resistance towards
that framework have helped toexacerbate those differences. So
what is it that the UnitedStates needs to learn from other
nations such as Chile? Thank youfor listening this intro. We
(02:18):
hope you enjoyed the episode.
Sam, thank you so much for beingpart of this episode of
Fulbright forward. I'm reallyexcited to have you to have this
conversation today.
Sam Apostolopoulos (02:29):
Yeah, thank you for having me. Super
excited.
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperling (02:33):
So Sam, usually when we have an
episode with Fulbright forward,the first question we ask our
guests is really this, if youcould just tell us a bit more
about your background and whoyou are.
Sam Apostolopoulos (02:45):
Yeah, for sure. So I'm from a small town
in western North Carolina. Myhometown has like 2500 people.
So by small I mean, like verysmall. I went to undergrad in
North Carolina, where I studiedhistory and politics, and have
really focused my research onLGBTQ rights and legal history,
(03:05):
mostly in the US, but have hadthe opportunity to do research
abroad prior to living abroad.
And, yeah, now now I'm here inSantiago.
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperling (03:19):
I'm just curious to know because
like, you know, I think when wetalk about things like legal
history, at least, I'm notsomeone who's ever studied it.
And I think learning that youhave this real focus on LGBTQ
experience, or how legalframeworks have even considered
the question of LGBTQ rights,who you are. I'm just curious,
like, what kind of experiencesled you to this work? Let's just
(03:42):
start first off in your life inthe United States, if there's
anything that really like toshare with our audience, and
then later we can talk about howthat brought you to where you
are now, as we're talking inChile?
Sam Apostolopoulos (03:53):
Yeah, I think probably the most like,
curtain and experience was whenI was in high school, I was able
to attend North Carolina'sGovernor's School, which is a
like residential program. Overthe summer, I was a social
science student there. And Iwent into one of my classes one
day, it's every one of the daysand one of the teaching
(04:14):
assistants was giving apresentation on like the state
of LGBTQ rights in the US. Andit was the first time I'd ever
really heard about it. Eventhough I am a queer person I
haven't really like looked intoit too much. And it's just like,
that's something I'll find outas I get older, and how the
world works outside of my littlebubble. But when I got to this
(04:35):
particular class, it ended witha map of the state of legal
protections in 2017 for queerpeople. So like, where states
protected housing rights andemployment rights and things
like that. And I just rememberlooking at it and thinking like,
I'm going to fix this. This is abroken system, and I'm going to
be a part of fixing it. Didn'treally know how I just knew that
(04:56):
like that was what was gonnahappen. Kind of like happened,
am I my back pocket thought Iwas going to study politics and
university and go run for officeand do that track. And then I
started taking history classesand realize that the system is
the way it is for a reason,which I feel like is kind of
obvious. But I needed to likereally get it drilled into like,
(05:19):
we're in the moment we're inbecause of the history of like
the United States. And thinkingabout the United States, this
current moment, for Grierpopulations, it's helpful to
look long term, because oursystem is built on common law,
which is building on itself,basically. So in order to
understand the current moment,you have to kind of dig down to
(05:40):
the bottom. And then I just kindof fell down that rabbit hole.
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperling (05:43):
And if I can ask, I just think for
someone like myself, who's lessfamiliar with it, as you sort of
gotten to know, the history ofthe United States, you know,
which is obviously veryimportant to know, this moment
where we're seeing, you know,kind of mammoth amounts of
legislation. They're trying torestrict the rights of LGBTQ
people, in particular trans andnon binary folks. Like, is there
(06:04):
anything from the history thatreally stood out to you in terms
of helping us understand thiscurrent moment? And of course,
I'm curious to ask thatquestion. Also, we talked about
Chile a little bit as well, too.
And again, it can be maybe morethan one moment, but I just want
to set that up as you need.
Understanding the history kindof helps us better understand
the current frame in which we'rein. Right. And I think there's a
(06:26):
couple examples that I think arereally important. And one of
them is this case out ofVirginia. And I want to say
1629, which dealt with what Ithink would be considered now a
person who's non binary.
Sam Apostolopoulos (06:40):
The case was called the Thomas Thomas seen
haul case, and really is likethe first time at least in
British colonies in NorthAmerica, that the legal system
had to deal with someone thatdidn't conform. And the fact
that the United States or themodern United States has been
dealing with questions of genderidentity and sexuality, since
(07:01):
quite literally colonistsarrived to me demonstrates that
like, this is something thatisn't new, as much as some
people might want to say, rathersomething that this the system
in which we live has beendealing with, and really trying
to figure out for, I don't know,almost 400 years now. And I
think I think that piece, thatobviously is also like, almost
(07:21):
like a movement slogan, right?
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperli (07:22):
We've always been here. When you when
you share that piece, right,like 400 years is not a small
chunk of time, that is several,several centuries that we need
to consider when thinking aboutthis. Obviously, this kind of
project you're doing and havebeen doing involves, I think, a
lot of just collecting rightdocuments research, putting up
(07:45):
this puzzle, in some ways tobetter create these images and
photos of, of times before usthat we have some data for I'm
sure I can imagine there'sprobably moments where it's
like, we only have so much tobuild with it, meaning like, we
wish there was more and there'sonly so much we can do. What for
you is the importance ofdocumenting and preserving this
facet of LGBTQ history.
Sam Apostolopoulos (08:06):
I think really, the answer to that is
that someday, someone else willcare. I feel like if someone had
done the work that I'm doingnow, when I was like, in the
closet, while in rural WesternNorth Carolina, and I had like
come across it, that would havemade me much more secure in my
identity. So part of it is thatlike this would have made like
(08:27):
younger Sam very happy and likekind of selfishly motivated. But
the other side of it is, as I'vedone this work for the last
couple years of like reallydigging into queer histories in
North Carolina and in thebroader United States and other
countries as well. There's justa lack of like compilation of
information. And I think oncepeople start doing that more
(08:50):
research can be done. And itprovides more useful counters to
more bigoted speech that'shappening around the world. It's
easy to say like No, like queerpeople have always been here,
the queer experience has alwaysbeen here, but it's a lot more
forceful. And you can say like,no, here is a point in the
1600s, when there's data onthis, like there's evidence of
(09:11):
this. And I think that'ssomething that really drives my
work. Because once informationis out there, and once activists
have access to it, that's howprogress is made. Doing this
work now is really important inthis moment in Chile in history,
as well as in the United Stateshistory because my project is
more of a comparison between thetwo.
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperling (09:30):
I feel like you've created the
perfect bridge to move us into alittle bit of this conversation
around Chile. So you know, Iknow you've shared that you've
done some research on thatyou've done research on places
outside of outside of Chile toin this legal history. So if you
want to share anything aboutthat, please feel free. And for
the sake of this, this sort ofconversation. I'm just very
curious to know about like yourpathway towards Chile. And what
(09:54):
sort of led you in the directionof being interested in studying
legal history of LGB TQ folksthere and applying for the
Fulbright. Yeah, for sure.
Sam Apostolopoulos (10:04):
I took a class called modern civil wars,
my junior year of college. Andpart of the project was to like
propose a hypothetical solutionto a modern conflict in a nation
state. So my solution was gearedtowards, like judicial reform.
And I want to say Venezuela. AndI pointed to Chile's
Constitution as an example ofhow to do judicial reform, one
(10:25):
of my peers basically was like,Do you know what's happening in
Chile right now? I said, No,what's what's going on there?
She was like, you should lookinto it before you say that,
that's how to do a constitution.
So then I started looking at TOAand realizing that in the time
that I was pointed to USConstitution, and same example,
that populace here was trying tooverhaul the Constitution. I
didn't realize the history tiedto the Constitution that was the
(10:48):
result of the Pinochetdictatorship. I just read it as
a document without understandingthe history, which kind of goes
against what I was just sayingabout having to understand the
whole history of something. ButI started looking into it
realize that in this moment,Chile was really moving from
this like populous groundswelltowards a really progressive
constitution, from the 1980constitution. And in that they
(11:12):
were proposing, like reallyunheard of protections for queer
people in a governing document.
So today, many constitutionsaround the world don't preserve
queer people's rightsexplicitly, there's, I think
only a handful. And Chile wasgoing to, like run the whole
gamut, from like, justeverything. And I was like, That
(11:33):
is crazy. Like, I want to bethere, I want to research it. I
feel like this needs to bedocumented, because like we were
just talking about, it's superimportant to document and
preserve that history, and tolike, help future activists,
while activists in Chile may notneed that history of like, this
is how the Constitution worked.
And this is how the processworked. After this, and other
countries may, when I got here,I started having conversation
(11:55):
with Chileans about what myresearch was. And their question
was always like, Well, whyaren't you just studying in the
US like, your constitution is somuch better, like you preserve
queer people's rights so muchbetter. And then I realized that
there was this disconnectbetween the perception of us
abroad and the reality of us inthe country, and kind of
transitioning my project tocompare the two of this is the
(12:17):
legal history of Chile. This ishow we got to this moment,
Chile, and this is legal historyof the US and how we got there.
And like, why are these pathssimilar? Why are they different?
Because I think that questionof, well, isn't your system
better? Can you like reallyeasily and say, once you look at
the history, and it's not thatone system is better, what
systems whereas they have had avery interesting history
(12:39):
independently. And when you lookat them side by side, a lot of
it occurred at the same times,which is also kind of crazy. So
yeah, that's where I am now.
That's what my research is on.
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperling (12:51):
You name for example, that like in
what, I guess maybe the rightwords, or could have been or
some ideas of the Chileanconstitution, or the new version
of it would have the sort ofvery, I want to use word
beautiful protections of, ofqueer of queer rights. So I just
want to ask to clarify, couldyou share, like what some of
(13:11):
those look like for ourlisteners, because, again, I
think going back to what yousaid, it's like, there can even
be this assumption within the USor other countries that those
protections are there. But untilwe actually name them, and
address them, it may not be asclear.
Sam Apostolopoulos (13:26):
I think one of the big things is leading up
to proposed Constitution. Andlike the decade prior, there
were a lot of legal advancementsfor queer people in Chile,
ranging from antidiscrimination, protection to
rights for trans individuals tochange the notifications about
needing medical care. And a lotof those were going to be
enshrined in this document, likethe anti discrimination
protection and the freedom toexpress oneself, there were some
(13:49):
questions as to whether or notmarriage equality would be
included in it. Not sure if itwas at the end. But that kind of
really just enshrining theprogress that had been made in
Chile in the decade prior, andensuring that regardless of
administrative changes,regardless of anything like
that, like that foundation forsocial and political rights
would be included intoperpetuity.
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperlin (14:14):
Now, thank you for addressing that.
So, obviously, you've shared alittle bit about, you know, what
it's been like to do thisproject in Chile. So I'd like to
go even deeper. I'm justcurious, like, you know, if you
could give us a little bit moreof like, what the experience has
been, like, you know, overall,and, um, you know, what you've
noticed, and just also like, howit's been for you navigating
(14:35):
your own identity,
Sam Apostolopoulos (14:36):
right, as someone from the US as a queer
person who cares very much aboutthese issues, like what what has
it been like for you? And I'malso kind of interested if you
don't mind sharing, like what itwas like to come up against
those assumptions of the US asbeing sort of this I almost want
to call like this better beacon,if that makes sense of of sort
(14:59):
of like LGBT queue support orprotection. The experience as a
whole has been really, I'velearned a lot about myself about
this subject. And I've been herefor seven and a half months. So
I'm towards I'm on the tail endof my grant, which is
bittersweet. I'm excited to goback to the US see my family.
But I'm also going to miss thecommunity I belt here in this,
(15:20):
like, just everything about thisexperience. As far as the work
is concerned, I have found itinterestingly, fairly similar to
the research I've done in theUS, it's a lot of like reading
newspapers, and going down thoseroutes, consulting government
documents, and kind of readingthem with a fine tooth comb to
tease out like, Is this reallywhat this person is saying,
(15:41):
like, let me cross check to thisother document and make sure
that I'm not likemisunderstanding, something that
is a colloquial term, or likejust reading past a nickname or
something like that. So kind ofgaining that cultural
consciousness and reading, it'sbeen really interesting. And
that work is then originallythat was all I was doing is
(16:03):
really like in the archivesreading newspapers, there's a
couple books that have beenpublished about just the queer
history of Chile, kind of usingthose to find sources. And then
building off of that watchingthat snowball basically have far
too many timelines like writtenall over in various different
notebooks. And it might, maybeone day, I'll find all of them
(16:23):
because at this point, they've,they're scattered. But it's also
been really nice to just lookoutside of the traditional
academic space and just seewhat's out there. So I came
across a website that referenceda play, looked at the play to
see what it was realized it waslike, happening that week. So
part of my research was going tothis play and like emailing with
(16:46):
the director, and like, seeingwhat the sources they had used
where, because the play wasabout queer life during the
dictatorship. So it's reallyinteresting, just confluence of
information. And my advisor hasbeen really great as well for
pointing me in directions forsources and like recommending,
if I look at X, Y, and Z, whichhas been really great, as far as
(17:08):
the latter part of that questionof coming up against the idea
that the US is like this beaconfor queer rights. I think a lot
of that has to do with justtiming, and the noise that I
think the US media can makearound the world. And I think
because advancement in the UShas happened, kind of on par
(17:31):
with Chile. But again, like theUS has a large population, a
larger media network, it justmakes more noise. And so an
example of that is Chilerepealed or partially repealed
its law criminalizing sodomy in1999. The US did that in 2003.
So like Chile was ahead, Chile,nationally banned discrimination
(17:52):
against queer people in 2012. Ibelieve the equivalent lot of
that would be like the MatthewShepard Hate Crime Act, which I
think was in 2011. So again,pretty on par 2015, in the US,
you had marriage equality in2015. In Chile, there was civil
union, like legalization. So alot of these things have been
happening kind of in tandem. AndI think just because the way in
(18:16):
which the US has been able toproject what happens there
around the world, and also, theway in which just the broader
global North has been able tolike stake its claim and queer
rights has been partially acause of this idea that the US
is really like far ahead, incomparison. But the reality is,
(18:37):
a lot of the leaders in queerrights are in the Global South,
like Brazil and South Africa andArgentina and Chile, like, these
advancements have been happeningaround the world, in like at
record speeds, and comparingChile to the US has been really
interesting in that regard.
Because like, from the time oflike, decriminalizing same sex
(18:57):
intimacy to same sex marriage orcivil unions was, like 15 years,
that's outrageously fast on theglobal scale. And the fact that
that isn't really I don't wantto say appreciated, but really,
like, given its its spotlight,both here and in the US. I think
it's like a real missedopportunity for queer activists,
(19:18):
because it is very true thatlike, that work is the result of
like grassroots organizing, andthe work that queer people have
been putting in for the lastdecades. And the fact that it's
been successful around the worldvery quickly, is just a
testament to the work that'sbeen done in the work that is
continuing to happen. No, I
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperli (19:37):
think it's so important that you like
you name that because I thinkespecially like in movement
space, it's sometimes so easy tothink about, like where we have
to go and there is so much moreto be done. And to also realize
like to celebrate also what hasbeen accomplished or at least
like really honor that becauseyou're right. It's the work.
It's the labor it's the time ofpeople who also put themselves
(19:59):
in sometimes very very insecuresituation to advance things
that, you know, a general publicmay be against, or that certain
parts of that public, which isvery powerful are again. So I
mean, I appreciate you likenaming that. And I think Chile,
you know, recently had tocommemorate the 50th anniversary
of, you know, the coup laid byPinochet back by the United
(20:20):
States that occurred onSeptember 11. And 1973. And what
has hasn't come up, you metnamed a little bit, I'm curious,
like a has the impact of thecoup come up in your work and
study of LGBT legal history andrights? So number one, if you
have been looking at that, whatwhat is your sense of the
impact? And how does that playinto how folks understand the
(20:47):
LGBTQ movement in Chile, andpretend and potentially, to
their relationship to the UnitedStates? Yeah,
Sam Apostolopoulos (20:54):
I think part of it is that the coup or
moreso, the aftermath of it, theend of the dictatorship in 1990.
I think that is a real launchpadfor a lot of human rights
advocacy in Chile. And it's oneof the more interesting things
come up in my research is thatin the couple of months prior
(21:14):
before the coup in April of1973, there was a protest
outside of laminata, which isthe presidential palace that's
commonly billed as the firstlike gay rights protest. And
interestingly, in that protest,they were advocating the
activists were advocating forcivil rights for queer civil
rights, kind of borrowing fromthe Civil Rights Movement, the
(21:35):
United States and other civilrights movements around the
world. And then after the coup,and after the dictatorship, the
framing had shifted to humanrights and framing queer rights
as human rights andacknowledging that the
dictatorship had countless humanrights violations and crimes
against humanity in someinstances, and Chile as a nation
(21:56):
reckoned with that. And really,I think, as a as a system
decided to kind of centralizehuman rights. And so a lot of
the documents that I found,since the dictatorship have
emphasized the importance ofhuman rights, and in like, the
(22:16):
earliest conversations aboutanti discrimination bill that
was passed in 2012, it's framed,and we owe it to these
international agreements toprotect the human rights of all
of our citizens. And we're notdoing that for queer people,
because we're not protectingthem from discrimination. Like
that just needs to change. And Ithink that has been one of the
things that the aftermath of thePinochet era has really focused
(22:40):
on this this human rightsaspect. I also think that the
coup itself and life during thedictatorship for queer people is
really multifaceted. And thatthere are several accounts in
queer histories like there's abook called Rado rattle. And
(23:01):
that focuses on the wholehistory of queer rights in
Chile. And I think the big thingbetween the commemoration of the
coup is emphasizing that,commemorating the 50th, the 50th
anniversary of it is theemphasis that now Chile is, I
think, more grounded in thesehuman rights and more dedicated
to protecting them, then I wouldargue, most countries right now,
(23:25):
and it's for an unfortunatereason, like you can directly
tie it back to the violence thatoccurred. And but it is still
this really, I think, centralgoal right now.
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperli (23:36):
Well, I just want to go back for a
second, because I think thething you were talking about was
just like the fact ofunderstanding queer life during
the dictatorship ismultifaceted. And so I was
curious if you could expand alittle bit on that, because I
know you mentioned is its workabout oh, and I just want to
Yeah, I'd love to know moreabout that multifaceted illness,
(23:56):
right? Because what I'm assumingthe direction we're going is
understanding that it was notjust one experience, and that
there were multiple things thatprobably were occurring in that
space.
Sam Apostolopoulos (24:06):
Yes, yeah.
Thank you for for bringing meback to where I was. Yes. So
there's some really interestinganecdotes in that book, that
highlight the kind of disparitybetween social socio economic
classes and their experiencelike in Chile, and that for
individuals with a higher socioeconomic class that were queer
(24:29):
life, and that life under thedictatorship for them was easier
than queer members from a lowersocioeconomic class. And a
really pointed example of thatis one of the might be the or it
might be one of the oldest likegay bars or gay clubs in South
America is in Santiago, and itopened in 1979. So in the midst
(24:51):
of the dictatorship, this clubopened and the I was kind of
shocked about that because Theconception is that the
dictatorship was superoppressive, and it very much
was. But this club opened and isstill there. And I've gone a
couple of times, it's a delight.
But in this book, it talks abouthow that was a very different
(25:16):
like experience because the clubcater to this higher socio
economic class. And it wasdesigned for them. And there, it
wasn't that the dictatorshipjust ignored it, it was still
rated, I want to say I cameacross a newspaper article that
was rated either it's like firstor second day open by police.
And it the article read verymuch like the vise baud rates in
(25:40):
the US in the 60s, where it'slike, you just these police
would go in and turn on all thelights and see what was going on
and then harass queer people,because I don't know. That's
what they did. In comparison tothat anecdote of this queer bar
opening, the play that Imentioned earlier, is centered
on the experiences of the likedrag performers and patrons of
(26:04):
that club, and how they facepolice violence and police
persecution. And many of themwere taken, tortured and
detained. And it's just holdingboth of those at the same time
of the experience for queerpeople during that era was not
all the same, just like, it'scurrently like, it's not the
same for queer people inSantiago, and in rural areas.
(26:25):
And just like in the US, it'snot the same for queer people in
New York or in like westernNorth Carolina, for example, it
just was really important, Ithink, to hold that complexity.
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperling (26:37):
One of the internal critiques we
even have in LGBTQ spaces, rightthat, like our experiences are
so mediated by who we are byissues of class of race, of
gender identity, you know, and Ithink like, hearing what you're
saying, as well, too, issomething I think we see in the
US, right, that like, those lessimpacted tend to be like, sis
(26:58):
white men with money. And, youknow, and it's not, and it's not
to ignore any oppression that,you know, like queer sis white
men face, it's just to say that,like, we don't have this lens,
and we're missing things, rightthere, we're not understanding
the complaint, like we you said,holding the complexity of all of
it, in order to have thisconversation away, that really
recognizes these, as you said,multi multifaceted realities.
(27:22):
And I think, you know, as you'resort of talking about this,
because you mentioned, ofcourse, that like, you've been
really comparing and trying tolook at the US and Chile, and
understanding really some ofthose comparisons, those
differences and everything ofthat nature. So you know, when
you look at those comparisons,are there other themes or
patterns or things that havecome up for you? And I guess I'm
(27:45):
curious, too, you know,obviously, you know, we have a
leftist leader under voltage inChile. And at the same time, the
still kind of movement, a veryright wing, extremist propaganda
in the Chilean sphere as well,too, very much similar to the
US. And I would argue, very muchconnected because folks talk and
(28:07):
work together. Let's just startwith the first part, what are
some of the themes and patternsthat you've sort of noticed
between the US and Chile, maybea more of a cultural level, or
if you want to expand more inthe legal piece, and any sort of
thoughts of just like the momentwe're in now,
Sam Apostolopoulos (28:24):
I think you mentioned this earlier about how
the US is intentionally designedto be decentralized. And I think
in that regard, talking aboutqueer rights in the US, and
directly comparing them in Chileis really difficult. Because in
the US, really was all queerrights, you can point to, well,
this state did it first. Andthen like it made its way to its
(28:46):
neighbors or to the SupremeCourt or that kind of thing. And
then once it's become fairlylarge, it gets federalized, that
approach, for better or worsekind of makes sense. But the
system in the US that we have oflike, it'll start small and and
get big, and then once it'sreached the Supreme Court, or
once Congress decides to dosomething, then change can
happen. And a lot of that ismotivated by like, small
(29:10):
communities of like activist andchanging popular opinion and
that kind of thing. And Chile, Ithink I touched on this earlier,
the framing aspect of rightsbeing framed as human rights,
specifically, that terminologyis something that I think is
really well understood here ofjust a difference in framing
where it's, these are humanrights, we need to protect them.
(29:34):
Whereas in the US the questionof it's a civil right, where
does that really come from?
Where can you draw on that fromour governing documents, like
whose obligation is it toprotect civil rights? That kind
of those kinds of questions aremore I found, at least in my
research to be more common inthe US? There's a lot more
complexity to the generalpopulace, like the general
populations understanding ofcivil rights as like, generally
(29:56):
think They're good thing but notreally understanding like, how
broad they are? Or like, shouldthey be broad? Should we think
of civil rights is a, like groupbasic, those kinds of questions
where I think the framing herehas inspired more of just to
kind of groundswell of supportof just like queer rights like
human rights, human rights aregood, let's like, protect that.
(30:18):
And I think that's been one ofthe things that I found really
interesting. And that alsotranslates to like the legal
advocacy that's happened aswell. So like I mentioned, this
a lot of framing of humanrights, square to human rights
in judicial, like in governmentdocuments here. And that I think
it's really interesting becauseit ties into all of this, like
(30:41):
international law stuff that Idon't really dive into. But
it's, it's really neat. Andlooking at, oh, like, this
framing, is really intentional,because it kind of ties this to
a broader, like internationalobligation, where the US like,
doesn't really love treaties,and like, oftentimes doesn't
(31:03):
play well with internationallaw, which is a whole other
conversation. But I think that'sanother thing where you have the
social impact of the framing ofhuman rights versus civil
rights. And then once you like,actually take that and put it
into the government, it's like,oh, this distinction actually
matters. And it mattersdifferently in both countries.
(31:23):
No,
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperling (31:25):
I think it's so important you
bring that up, because I thinkin my experience, the US to get
certain people who very muchbelieve in the US exceptionalism
to listen to must be spoken inthe language of the US. And when
and when you know, like, whatsounds like you're saying in
Chile, is that as many undocuments that the US has not
ratified would say, it's not aquestion, right? It sounds like
(31:46):
for many people, it's not aquestion these, you know, these
are human rights period. This iswhat this means. So it's
interesting to hear that veryclear understanding, you know,
in common under in common sortof backing, on the other side of
things where we are seeing, inparticular, in the United
States, a growing number oflegislation that's really trying
to harm the rights in particularof trans and non binary folks,
(32:07):
whether it's around access tohealth care, participation,
sports, things of that nature. Ithink it couldn't turn that I
always have is how our politicsand I would say our politics of
marginalization can spread. Andso I'm curious, like, I hope the
answer is no, of course. But youknow, I'm curious, like in
Chile, are we seeing any wavesof how those movements within
(32:29):
those kind of more right wingmovements in our own country are
spreading to a country likeChile? And if so, like, if there
are any particular things thatyou want to make sure an
audience knows and learns about?
Sam Apostolopoulos (32:40):
Yeah, well, I think so. I'm first gonna
ground this. And myunderstanding is pretty like a
while I've done a lot of legal,like legal history research and
social history stuff here. Andmy research doesn't necessarily
focus on current eventsentirely. I can like, just just
(33:00):
a preface with that. That beingsaid, during the campaigns for
the proposed Constitution here,which was in was voted on
September of last year, so inAugust of last year, and late
July, there was a I don't wantto say explicit misinformation
campaign. But there was someexaggeration that I heard about,
(33:23):
regarding the rights of likegender identity, that were
included in the document, thatthere wasn't a central focus of
the reject campaign. But it wasit I mean, like that was
present. I think one of thedifferences though, is that
Chile federally protects thoserights. So in Chile, there's a
(33:46):
right for trans people totransition. And with or without
medical intervention, with orwithout, like, going before a
judge, like just the right to dothose things. And I think
because that has already, likepassed Congress and exists, I
don't think that those attacksare as I don't say pertinent,
(34:06):
but as common because it's like,this is already a law. Whereas
in the US, it's creating aproblem out of something that
like really shouldn't be anissue, like, plainly. And I
think, in Chile, it's like this,this has already been addressed.
And while it can come up again,and has come up, to some extent,
I think a lot of that has beenkind of stifled by this just
(34:29):
generally, this is already thestate of affairs like this is
what's happened.
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperli (34:35):
Well, that gets me thinking because I
didn't really think about this,but it kind of helps me
understand even the fights inthe US by anti LGBTQ folks to
not have those protections.
Because if we don't have thoseprotections in our Constitution
are in our protect our legalsystem, then we can continue to
question the validity of theseidentities and these communities
(34:56):
and that so That's Thank you,because that kind of helps me I
think make more sense of thosestrategies that I don't like.
We're approaching kind of theclosing. So I just have a few
more questions. A lot of ourrhetoric is always from the US
perspective, what can the worldlearn from us? But what can the
world look in the US or fromChile? When it comes to either
(35:16):
how we address LGBTQ legalhistory, how we address LGBTQ
plus rights? Like, is there anyis there one or two things that
stand out to you is somethingthat like the United States
should really incorporate orlearn or be more in
conversation, perhaps withmovements in Chile around LGBTQ
communities and rights?
Sam Apostolopoulos (35:39):
Yeah, and I don't necessarily think that
this answer is explicit to whichland case, I think this is
probably the way that mostsystems do this. But I think in
the US, generally, there is ahesitancy to legislate on
rights, at least queer rights,quite literally every like,
queer rights case, that hashappened at the federal level
(36:02):
has happened in my lifetime,with the exception of Burma, but
like, that, is kind of crazy.
And like one, not being afraidto like, do the legislation, but
also not being afraid to likeactually advance the rights of
queer people, like queer peopleare still citizens, like they
deserve the same rights as othercitizens. So maybe protecting
them would be a move. I thinkthat's the big thing. It's just
(36:26):
like, in Chile, for the lastthree decades, there's been just
an I don't want to say, amassive amount of legislation
surrounding curfew, but it hasjust been like, oh, like there's
an issue that affects a portionof the population, let's fix
that. And the legislature,rather than in the US, where we
generally will fix at a statelevel, or like, activists will
(36:47):
sue their way to the SupremeCourt. Not that that's wrong,
because that is how our systemskind of designed to work. But it
doesn't have to work that way.
And Congress can pass laws thatcircumvent that whole process.
But it just doesn't. So I thinkthat's the big the big takeaway
is like, just like pass a law,like other countries have done
(37:11):
it, look at that. Right?
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperli (37:13):
Don't claim you care about us if
you're not going to do anything.
Right. Yeah. I think the lastfew questions is just, you know,
I think you've given a lot ofjust really important things for
anyone listening take away. Isthere anything else you'd like
to share? Whether related tothis specific topic or in
general? Like, is there any sortof lesson or idea you'd like an
audience to take away from thisconversation as relates to this
(37:34):
kind of larger topic of LGBTQrights, legal history, things of
that nature?
Sam Apostolopoulos (37:42):
I think the biggest thing is that just like,
every, every place, has a like,queer history. Like, regardless
of where it is, it exists. Andlike that needs to be studied,
that needs to be lifted up likeit, even if like you, as a
person, do not do history, like,even if you're not a queer
(38:04):
person, like this historymatters. It just matters and
needs to be done. And that workneeds to be done. And really
just like, think criticallyabout where you live, and if you
know about it, and if not, like,maybe Google it, maybe see if
those answers are there. And ifthey aren't, then that's a whole
adventure that you can go on.
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperling (38:24):
I want to say this with it with
like, caution. By that I justmean, you obviously I know have
a lot to move through as you'refinishing your grant and your
project. With that said, like,what are you currently thinking
about for the future? Or justeven dreaming of like, what is
what is Sam's dream at thismoment for the future that could
include a nap but I just thinkin general when it comes to your
work and other things?
Sam Apostolopoulos (38:47):
Well, my goal for my Fulbright experience
is to have a paper by the end ofit that I like, kind of sent out
to the gamut of journals, butwe'll see if that shakes out,
because I'm an unaffiliatedresearcher. And I've heard
that's kind of an uphill battleoutside of the Fulbright
experience I'm currentlyapplying to law schools. So
hopefully, I'm going to beapplying this legal or legal
(39:08):
history stuff in the US buildingon my Fulbright experience,
trying to make America more justplates. And really just working
on that. And then also likemoving forward digging into
this, like legal historyresearch more. Once I have like
more of a background and likethe law, because right now I'm
just kind of like a historiankind of doing it. And my hope is
(39:29):
that once I have more of like,the legal bones of it, I can be
like, now this is how this longworks. That kind of hurt. But
yeah, that's that's what I'mthinking about right now.
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperl (39:39):
That's a solid vision. And then I guess
my last question is just toanyone out there you know,
considering applying for aFulbright, right, who just has
an idea of ringing their head,you know, is interested,
obviously we have other programsteaching English, things of that
nature. Like what would you saythat person?
Sam Apostolopoulos (39:56):
Honestly, I like can't even describe the
ways in which Just that I havelike, grown as a person from
this experience. And if you hadtold me when I was applying for
this, that I would one, get it.
And to like, be here, I wouldn'thave believed you. Like, I have
grown so much. And there's somuch to gain from a Fulbright
from even applying, like Ilearned a lot about myself in
(40:19):
the application process. It'snot like a simple application.
Like there's a lot of, likeintrospection that I think
should go into it. But honestly,like, I could not recommend this
experience enough. Like, ifyou're even considering applying
for a Fulbright, like, do it.
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperli (40:37):
Well, Sam, thank you so much for
taking the time to be part ofthis episode. I definitely leave
you with lots to think about,and I've really enjoyed this
conversation. Thank you. Yeah,of course. Thank
Sam Apostolopoulos (40:46):
you so much.
Had a great time.
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperl (40:49):
That's all for this episode of
Fulbright forward. Remember thatyou can access our full library
of episodes on your favoritepodcast app such as Apple
podcasts, Spotify or overcast.
You also can see a list of someof the media and books that Sam
mentioned on this episode'sBuzzsprout page. Thank you for
listening. Take care, be welland support queer history.
Welcome to another episode of Fulbright
forward a diversity podcast. I'myour host for today Jeremy
common Sperling, the Fulbrightdiversity and inclusion liaison
for programs in the WesternHemisphere, otherwise known as
the Americas and the Caribbean.
Every place has a queer history.
Those are some of the impactfulwords shared by our guests
today. Fulbright 2022 to 2023,US student researcher to Chile,
(00:30):
Sam Apostel opolis. Sam'sFulbright project focuses on
understanding the legal historyof LGBTQ plus rights in Chile,
and comparing that with thehistory of LGBTQ plus legal
frameworks in the United States.
Through this conversation, Samshares a great deal of insight
about how LGBTQ plus legalrights evolved in Chile. The
discourse used to protect anadvocate for these rights, the
(00:52):
challenges that the queercommunity faced during era such
as the Pinochet dictatorship,and where things stand now in
the country. Sam also touches abit on the legal history in the
United States, including a courtcase that involved a non binary
person that occurred 400 yearsago. In this way, his message is
clear. There is queer historyeverywhere, and we can all play
(01:13):
a part in remembering, revivingand sustaining it. Another
important aspect of thisconversation is the way that
Sam's project works to interruptexisting narratives of the
United States its relationshipto LGBTQ plus rights. The United
States has often attempted toportray itself on a global scale
as a beacon of queer and transrights that other countries
(01:36):
should follow, despite the UShis own record of lack of
protections and attacks on itsown LGBTQ plus community, and
the fact that many nations ittries to advise have better
systems. In the case of Sam, heshows that Chile often is legal
as protections for queer andtrans people while before the
United States, and to this dayoffers greater federal legal
(01:56):
support for the LGBTQ pluscommunity. Furthermore, Sam also
articulates how the embrace ofLGBTQ plus protections in Chile
as human rights and the UnitedStates his resistance towards
that framework have helped toexacerbate those differences. So
what is it that the UnitedStates needs to learn from other
nations such as Chile? Thank youfor listening this intro. We
(02:18):
hope you enjoyed the episode.
Sam, thank you so much for beingpart of this episode of
Fulbright forward. I'm reallyexcited to have you to have this
conversation today.
Sam Apostolopoulos (02:29):
Yeah, thank you for having me. Super
excited.
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperling (02:33):
So Sam, usually when we have an
episode with Fulbright forward,the first question we ask our
guests is really this, if youcould just tell us a bit more
about your background and whoyou are.
Sam Apostolopoulos (02:45):
Yeah, for sure. So I'm from a small town
in western North Carolina. Myhometown has like 2500 people.
So by small I mean, like verysmall. I went to undergrad in
North Carolina, where I studiedhistory and politics, and have
really focused my research onLGBTQ rights and legal history,
(03:05):
mostly in the US, but have hadthe opportunity to do research
abroad prior to living abroad.
And, yeah, now now I'm here inSantiago.
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperling (03:19):
I'm just curious to know because
like, you know, I think when wetalk about things like legal
history, at least, I'm notsomeone who's ever studied it.
And I think learning that youhave this real focus on LGBTQ
experience, or how legalframeworks have even considered
the question of LGBTQ rights,who you are. I'm just curious,
like, what kind of experiencesled you to this work? Let's just
(03:42):
start first off in your life inthe United States, if there's
anything that really like toshare with our audience, and
then later we can talk about howthat brought you to where you
are now, as we're talking inChile?
Sam Apostolopoulos (03:53):
Yeah, I think probably the most like,
curtain and experience was whenI was in high school, I was able
to attend North Carolina'sGovernor's School, which is a
like residential program. Overthe summer, I was a social
science student there. And Iwent into one of my classes one
day, it's every one of the daysand one of the teaching
(04:14):
assistants was giving apresentation on like the state
of LGBTQ rights in the US. Andit was the first time I'd ever
really heard about it. Eventhough I am a queer person I
haven't really like looked intoit too much. And it's just like,
that's something I'll find outas I get older, and how the
world works outside of my littlebubble. But when I got to this
(04:35):
particular class, it ended witha map of the state of legal
protections in 2017 for queerpeople. So like, where states
protected housing rights andemployment rights and things
like that. And I just rememberlooking at it and thinking like,
I'm going to fix this. This is abroken system, and I'm going to
be a part of fixing it. Didn'treally know how I just knew that
(04:56):
like that was what was gonnahappen. Kind of like happened,
am I my back pocket thought Iwas going to study politics and
university and go run for officeand do that track. And then I
started taking history classesand realize that the system is
the way it is for a reason,which I feel like is kind of
obvious. But I needed to likereally get it drilled into like,
(05:19):
we're in the moment we're inbecause of the history of like
the United States. And thinkingabout the United States, this
current moment, for Grierpopulations, it's helpful to
look long term, because oursystem is built on common law,
which is building on itself,basically. So in order to
understand the current moment,you have to kind of dig down to
(05:40):
the bottom. And then I just kindof fell down that rabbit hole.
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperling (05:43):
And if I can ask, I just think for
someone like myself, who's lessfamiliar with it, as you sort of
gotten to know, the history ofthe United States, you know,
which is obviously veryimportant to know, this moment
where we're seeing, you know,kind of mammoth amounts of
legislation. They're trying torestrict the rights of LGBTQ
people, in particular trans andnon binary folks. Like, is there
(06:04):
anything from the history thatreally stood out to you in terms
of helping us understand thiscurrent moment? And of course,
I'm curious to ask thatquestion. Also, we talked about
Chile a little bit as well, too.
And again, it can be maybe morethan one moment, but I just want
to set that up as you need.
Understanding the history kindof helps us better understand
the current frame in which we'rein. Right. And I think there's a
(06:26):
couple examples that I think arereally important. And one of
them is this case out ofVirginia. And I want to say
1629, which dealt with what Ithink would be considered now a
person who's non binary.
Sam Apostolopoulos (06:40):
The case was called the Thomas Thomas seen
haul case, and really is likethe first time at least in
British colonies in NorthAmerica, that the legal system
had to deal with someone thatdidn't conform. And the fact
that the United States or themodern United States has been
dealing with questions of genderidentity and sexuality, since
(07:01):
quite literally colonistsarrived to me demonstrates that
like, this is something thatisn't new, as much as some
people might want to say, rathersomething that this the system
in which we live has beendealing with, and really trying
to figure out for, I don't know,almost 400 years now. And I
think I think that piece, thatobviously is also like, almost
(07:21):
like a movement slogan, right?
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperli (07:22):
We've always been here. When you when
you share that piece, right,like 400 years is not a small
chunk of time, that is several,several centuries that we need
to consider when thinking aboutthis. Obviously, this kind of
project you're doing and havebeen doing involves, I think, a
lot of just collecting rightdocuments research, putting up
(07:45):
this puzzle, in some ways tobetter create these images and
photos of, of times before usthat we have some data for I'm
sure I can imagine there'sprobably moments where it's
like, we only have so much tobuild with it, meaning like, we
wish there was more and there'sonly so much we can do. What for
you is the importance ofdocumenting and preserving this
facet of LGBTQ history.
Sam Apostolopoulos (08:06):
I think really, the answer to that is
that someday, someone else willcare. I feel like if someone had
done the work that I'm doingnow, when I was like, in the
closet, while in rural WesternNorth Carolina, and I had like
come across it, that would havemade me much more secure in my
identity. So part of it is thatlike this would have made like
(08:27):
younger Sam very happy and likekind of selfishly motivated. But
the other side of it is, as I'vedone this work for the last
couple years of like reallydigging into queer histories in
North Carolina and in thebroader United States and other
countries as well. There's justa lack of like compilation of
information. And I think oncepeople start doing that more
(08:50):
research can be done. And itprovides more useful counters to
more bigoted speech that'shappening around the world. It's
easy to say like No, like queerpeople have always been here,
the queer experience has alwaysbeen here, but it's a lot more
forceful. And you can say like,no, here is a point in the
1600s, when there's data onthis, like there's evidence of
(09:11):
this. And I think that'ssomething that really drives my
work. Because once informationis out there, and once activists
have access to it, that's howprogress is made. Doing this
work now is really important inthis moment in Chile in history,
as well as in the United Stateshistory because my project is
more of a comparison between thetwo.
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperling (09:30):
I feel like you've created the
perfect bridge to move us into alittle bit of this conversation
around Chile. So you know, Iknow you've shared that you've
done some research on thatyou've done research on places
outside of outside of Chile toin this legal history. So if you
want to share anything aboutthat, please feel free. And for
the sake of this, this sort ofconversation. I'm just very
curious to know about like yourpathway towards Chile. And what
(09:54):
sort of led you in the directionof being interested in studying
legal history of LGB TQ folksthere and applying for the
Fulbright. Yeah, for sure.
Sam Apostolopoulos (10:04):
I took a class called modern civil wars,
my junior year of college. Andpart of the project was to like
propose a hypothetical solutionto a modern conflict in a nation
state. So my solution was gearedtowards, like judicial reform.
And I want to say Venezuela. AndI pointed to Chile's
Constitution as an example ofhow to do judicial reform, one
(10:25):
of my peers basically was like,Do you know what's happening in
Chile right now? I said, No,what's what's going on there?
She was like, you should lookinto it before you say that,
that's how to do a constitution.
So then I started looking at TOAand realizing that in the time
that I was pointed to USConstitution, and same example,
that populace here was trying tooverhaul the Constitution. I
didn't realize the history tiedto the Constitution that was the
(10:48):
result of the Pinochetdictatorship. I just read it as
a document without understandingthe history, which kind of goes
against what I was just sayingabout having to understand the
whole history of something. ButI started looking into it
realize that in this moment,Chile was really moving from
this like populous groundswelltowards a really progressive
constitution, from the 1980constitution. And in that they
(11:12):
were proposing, like reallyunheard of protections for queer
people in a governing document.
So today, many constitutionsaround the world don't preserve
queer people's rightsexplicitly, there's, I think
only a handful. And Chile wasgoing to, like run the whole
gamut, from like, justeverything. And I was like, That
(11:33):
is crazy. Like, I want to bethere, I want to research it. I
feel like this needs to bedocumented, because like we were
just talking about, it's superimportant to document and
preserve that history, and tolike, help future activists,
while activists in Chile may notneed that history of like, this
is how the Constitution worked.
And this is how the processworked. After this, and other
countries may, when I got here,I started having conversation
(11:55):
with Chileans about what myresearch was. And their question
was always like, Well, whyaren't you just studying in the
US like, your constitution is somuch better, like you preserve
queer people's rights so muchbetter. And then I realized that
there was this disconnectbetween the perception of us
abroad and the reality of us inthe country, and kind of
transitioning my project tocompare the two of this is the
(12:17):
legal history of Chile. This ishow we got to this moment,
Chile, and this is legal historyof the US and how we got there.
And like, why are these pathssimilar? Why are they different?
Because I think that questionof, well, isn't your system
better? Can you like reallyeasily and say, once you look at
the history, and it's not thatone system is better, what
systems whereas they have had avery interesting history
(12:39):
independently. And when you lookat them side by side, a lot of
it occurred at the same times,which is also kind of crazy. So
yeah, that's where I am now.
That's what my research is on.
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperling (12:51):
You name for example, that like in
what, I guess maybe the rightwords, or could have been or
some ideas of the Chileanconstitution, or the new version
of it would have the sort ofvery, I want to use word
beautiful protections of, ofqueer of queer rights. So I just
want to ask to clarify, couldyou share, like what some of
(13:11):
those look like for ourlisteners, because, again, I
think going back to what yousaid, it's like, there can even
be this assumption within the USor other countries that those
protections are there. But untilwe actually name them, and
address them, it may not be asclear.
Sam Apostolopoulos (13:26):
I think one of the big things is leading up
to proposed Constitution. Andlike the decade prior, there
were a lot of legal advancementsfor queer people in Chile,
ranging from antidiscrimination, protection to
rights for trans individuals tochange the notifications about
needing medical care. And a lotof those were going to be
enshrined in this document, likethe anti discrimination
protection and the freedom toexpress oneself, there were some
(13:49):
questions as to whether or notmarriage equality would be
included in it. Not sure if itwas at the end. But that kind of
really just enshrining theprogress that had been made in
Chile in the decade prior, andensuring that regardless of
administrative changes,regardless of anything like
that, like that foundation forsocial and political rights
would be included intoperpetuity.
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperlin (14:14):
Now, thank you for addressing that.
So, obviously, you've shared alittle bit about, you know, what
it's been like to do thisproject in Chile. So I'd like to
go even deeper. I'm justcurious, like, you know, if you
could give us a little bit moreof like, what the experience has
been, like, you know, overall,and, um, you know, what you've
noticed, and just also like, howit's been for you navigating
(14:35):
your own identity,
Sam Apostolopoulos (14:36):
right, as someone from the US as a queer
person who cares very much aboutthese issues, like what what has
it been like for you? And I'malso kind of interested if you
don't mind sharing, like what itwas like to come up against
those assumptions of the US asbeing sort of this I almost want
to call like this better beacon,if that makes sense of of sort
(14:59):
of like LGBT queue support orprotection. The experience as a
whole has been really, I'velearned a lot about myself about
this subject. And I've been herefor seven and a half months. So
I'm towards I'm on the tail endof my grant, which is
bittersweet. I'm excited to goback to the US see my family.
But I'm also going to miss thecommunity I belt here in this,
(15:20):
like, just everything about thisexperience. As far as the work
is concerned, I have found itinterestingly, fairly similar to
the research I've done in theUS, it's a lot of like reading
newspapers, and going down thoseroutes, consulting government
documents, and kind of readingthem with a fine tooth comb to
tease out like, Is this reallywhat this person is saying,
(15:41):
like, let me cross check to thisother document and make sure
that I'm not likemisunderstanding, something that
is a colloquial term, or likejust reading past a nickname or
something like that. So kind ofgaining that cultural
consciousness and reading, it'sbeen really interesting. And
that work is then originallythat was all I was doing is
(16:03):
really like in the archivesreading newspapers, there's a
couple books that have beenpublished about just the queer
history of Chile, kind of usingthose to find sources. And then
building off of that watchingthat snowball basically have far
too many timelines like writtenall over in various different
notebooks. And it might, maybeone day, I'll find all of them
(16:23):
because at this point, they've,they're scattered. But it's also
been really nice to just lookoutside of the traditional
academic space and just seewhat's out there. So I came
across a website that referenceda play, looked at the play to
see what it was realized it waslike, happening that week. So
part of my research was going tothis play and like emailing with
(16:46):
the director, and like, seeingwhat the sources they had used
where, because the play wasabout queer life during the
dictatorship. So it's reallyinteresting, just confluence of
information. And my advisor hasbeen really great as well for
pointing me in directions forsources and like recommending,
if I look at X, Y, and Z, whichhas been really great, as far as
(17:08):
the latter part of that questionof coming up against the idea
that the US is like this beaconfor queer rights. I think a lot
of that has to do with justtiming, and the noise that I
think the US media can makearound the world. And I think
because advancement in the UShas happened, kind of on par
(17:31):
with Chile. But again, like theUS has a large population, a
larger media network, it justmakes more noise. And so an
example of that is Chilerepealed or partially repealed
its law criminalizing sodomy in1999. The US did that in 2003.
So like Chile was ahead, Chile,nationally banned discrimination
(17:52):
against queer people in 2012. Ibelieve the equivalent lot of
that would be like the MatthewShepard Hate Crime Act, which I
think was in 2011. So again,pretty on par 2015, in the US,
you had marriage equality in2015. In Chile, there was civil
union, like legalization. So alot of these things have been
happening kind of in tandem. AndI think just because the way in
(18:16):
which the US has been able toproject what happens there
around the world, and also, theway in which just the broader
global North has been able tolike stake its claim and queer
rights has been partially acause of this idea that the US
is really like far ahead, incomparison. But the reality is,
(18:37):
a lot of the leaders in queerrights are in the Global South,
like Brazil and South Africa andArgentina and Chile, like, these
advancements have been happeningaround the world, in like at
record speeds, and comparingChile to the US has been really
interesting in that regard.
Because like, from the time oflike, decriminalizing same sex
(18:57):
intimacy to same sex marriage orcivil unions was, like 15 years,
that's outrageously fast on theglobal scale. And the fact that
that isn't really I don't wantto say appreciated, but really,
like, given its its spotlight,both here and in the US. I think
it's like a real missedopportunity for queer activists,
(19:18):
because it is very true thatlike, that work is the result of
like grassroots organizing, andthe work that queer people have
been putting in for the lastdecades. And the fact that it's
been successful around the worldvery quickly, is just a
testament to the work that'sbeen done in the work that is
continuing to happen. No, I
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperli (19:37):
think it's so important that you like
you name that because I thinkespecially like in movement
space, it's sometimes so easy tothink about, like where we have
to go and there is so much moreto be done. And to also realize
like to celebrate also what hasbeen accomplished or at least
like really honor that becauseyou're right. It's the work.
It's the labor it's the time ofpeople who also put themselves
(19:59):
in sometimes very very insecuresituation to advance things
that, you know, a general publicmay be against, or that certain
parts of that public, which isvery powerful are again. So I
mean, I appreciate you likenaming that. And I think Chile,
you know, recently had tocommemorate the 50th anniversary
of, you know, the coup laid byPinochet back by the United
(20:20):
States that occurred onSeptember 11. And 1973. And what
has hasn't come up, you metnamed a little bit, I'm curious,
like a has the impact of thecoup come up in your work and
study of LGBT legal history andrights? So number one, if you
have been looking at that, whatwhat is your sense of the
impact? And how does that playinto how folks understand the
(20:47):
LGBTQ movement in Chile, andpretend and potentially, to
their relationship to the UnitedStates? Yeah,
Sam Apostolopoulos (20:54):
I think part of it is that the coup or
moreso, the aftermath of it, theend of the dictatorship in 1990.
I think that is a real launchpadfor a lot of human rights
advocacy in Chile. And it's oneof the more interesting things
come up in my research is thatin the couple of months prior
(21:14):
before the coup in April of1973, there was a protest
outside of laminata, which isthe presidential palace that's
commonly billed as the firstlike gay rights protest. And
interestingly, in that protest,they were advocating the
activists were advocating forcivil rights for queer civil
rights, kind of borrowing fromthe Civil Rights Movement, the
(21:35):
United States and other civilrights movements around the
world. And then after the coup,and after the dictatorship, the
framing had shifted to humanrights and framing queer rights
as human rights andacknowledging that the
dictatorship had countless humanrights violations and crimes
against humanity in someinstances, and Chile as a nation
(21:56):
reckoned with that. And really,I think, as a as a system
decided to kind of centralizehuman rights. And so a lot of
the documents that I found,since the dictatorship have
emphasized the importance ofhuman rights, and in like, the
(22:16):
earliest conversations aboutanti discrimination bill that
was passed in 2012, it's framed,and we owe it to these
international agreements toprotect the human rights of all
of our citizens. And we're notdoing that for queer people,
because we're not protectingthem from discrimination. Like
that just needs to change. And Ithink that has been one of the
things that the aftermath of thePinochet era has really focused
(22:40):
on this this human rightsaspect. I also think that the
coup itself and life during thedictatorship for queer people is
really multifaceted. And thatthere are several accounts in
queer histories like there's abook called Rado rattle. And
(23:01):
that focuses on the wholehistory of queer rights in
Chile. And I think the big thingbetween the commemoration of the
coup is emphasizing that,commemorating the 50th, the 50th
anniversary of it is theemphasis that now Chile is, I
think, more grounded in thesehuman rights and more dedicated
to protecting them, then I wouldargue, most countries right now,
(23:25):
and it's for an unfortunatereason, like you can directly
tie it back to the violence thatoccurred. And but it is still
this really, I think, centralgoal right now.
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperli (23:36):
Well, I just want to go back for a
second, because I think thething you were talking about was
just like the fact ofunderstanding queer life during
the dictatorship ismultifaceted. And so I was
curious if you could expand alittle bit on that, because I
know you mentioned is its workabout oh, and I just want to
Yeah, I'd love to know moreabout that multifaceted illness,
(23:56):
right? Because what I'm assumingthe direction we're going is
understanding that it was notjust one experience, and that
there were multiple things thatprobably were occurring in that
space.
Sam Apostolopoulos (24:06):
Yes, yeah.
Thank you for for bringing meback to where I was. Yes. So
there's some really interestinganecdotes in that book, that
highlight the kind of disparitybetween social socio economic
classes and their experiencelike in Chile, and that for
individuals with a higher socioeconomic class that were queer
(24:29):
life, and that life under thedictatorship for them was easier
than queer members from a lowersocioeconomic class. And a
really pointed example of thatis one of the might be the or it
might be one of the oldest likegay bars or gay clubs in South
America is in Santiago, and itopened in 1979. So in the midst
(24:51):
of the dictatorship, this clubopened and the I was kind of
shocked about that because Theconception is that the
dictatorship was superoppressive, and it very much
was. But this club opened and isstill there. And I've gone a
couple of times, it's a delight.
But in this book, it talks abouthow that was a very different
(25:16):
like experience because the clubcater to this higher socio
economic class. And it wasdesigned for them. And there, it
wasn't that the dictatorshipjust ignored it, it was still
rated, I want to say I cameacross a newspaper article that
was rated either it's like firstor second day open by police.
And it the article read verymuch like the vise baud rates in
(25:40):
the US in the 60s, where it'slike, you just these police
would go in and turn on all thelights and see what was going on
and then harass queer people,because I don't know. That's
what they did. In comparison tothat anecdote of this queer bar
opening, the play that Imentioned earlier, is centered
on the experiences of the likedrag performers and patrons of
(26:04):
that club, and how they facepolice violence and police
persecution. And many of themwere taken, tortured and
detained. And it's just holdingboth of those at the same time
of the experience for queerpeople during that era was not
all the same, just like, it'scurrently like, it's not the
same for queer people inSantiago, and in rural areas.
(26:25):
And just like in the US, it'snot the same for queer people in
New York or in like westernNorth Carolina, for example, it
just was really important, Ithink, to hold that complexity.
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperling (26:37):
One of the internal critiques we
even have in LGBTQ spaces, rightthat, like our experiences are
so mediated by who we are byissues of class of race, of
gender identity, you know, and Ithink like, hearing what you're
saying, as well, too, issomething I think we see in the
US, right, that like, those lessimpacted tend to be like, sis
(26:58):
white men with money. And, youknow, and it's not, and it's not
to ignore any oppression that,you know, like queer sis white
men face, it's just to say that,like, we don't have this lens,
and we're missing things, rightthere, we're not understanding
the complaint, like we you said,holding the complexity of all of
it, in order to have thisconversation away, that really
recognizes these, as you said,multi multifaceted realities.
(27:22):
And I think, you know, as you'resort of talking about this,
because you mentioned, ofcourse, that like, you've been
really comparing and trying tolook at the US and Chile, and
understanding really some ofthose comparisons, those
differences and everything ofthat nature. So you know, when
you look at those comparisons,are there other themes or
patterns or things that havecome up for you? And I guess I'm
(27:45):
curious, too, you know,obviously, you know, we have a
leftist leader under voltage inChile. And at the same time, the
still kind of movement, a veryright wing, extremist propaganda
in the Chilean sphere as well,too, very much similar to the
US. And I would argue, very muchconnected because folks talk and
(28:07):
work together. Let's just startwith the first part, what are
some of the themes and patternsthat you've sort of noticed
between the US and Chile, maybea more of a cultural level, or
if you want to expand more inthe legal piece, and any sort of
thoughts of just like the momentwe're in now,
Sam Apostolopoulos (28:24):
I think you mentioned this earlier about how
the US is intentionally designedto be decentralized. And I think
in that regard, talking aboutqueer rights in the US, and
directly comparing them in Chileis really difficult. Because in
the US, really was all queerrights, you can point to, well,
this state did it first. Andthen like it made its way to its
(28:46):
neighbors or to the SupremeCourt or that kind of thing. And
then once it's become fairlylarge, it gets federalized, that
approach, for better or worsekind of makes sense. But the
system in the US that we have oflike, it'll start small and and
get big, and then once it'sreached the Supreme Court, or
once Congress decides to dosomething, then change can
happen. And a lot of that ismotivated by like, small
(29:10):
communities of like activist andchanging popular opinion and
that kind of thing. And Chile, Ithink I touched on this earlier,
the framing aspect of rightsbeing framed as human rights,
specifically, that terminologyis something that I think is
really well understood here ofjust a difference in framing
where it's, these are humanrights, we need to protect them.
(29:34):
Whereas in the US the questionof it's a civil right, where
does that really come from?
Where can you draw on that fromour governing documents, like
whose obligation is it toprotect civil rights? That kind
of those kinds of questions aremore I found, at least in my
research to be more common inthe US? There's a lot more
complexity to the generalpopulace, like the general
populations understanding ofcivil rights as like, generally
(29:56):
think They're good thing but notreally understanding like, how
broad they are? Or like, shouldthey be broad? Should we think
of civil rights is a, like groupbasic, those kinds of questions
where I think the framing herehas inspired more of just to
kind of groundswell of supportof just like queer rights like
human rights, human rights aregood, let's like, protect that.
(30:18):
And I think that's been one ofthe things that I found really
interesting. And that alsotranslates to like the legal
advocacy that's happened aswell. So like I mentioned, this
a lot of framing of humanrights, square to human rights
in judicial, like in governmentdocuments here. And that I think
it's really interesting becauseit ties into all of this, like
(30:41):
international law stuff that Idon't really dive into. But
it's, it's really neat. Andlooking at, oh, like, this
framing, is really intentional,because it kind of ties this to
a broader, like internationalobligation, where the US like,
doesn't really love treaties,and like, oftentimes doesn't
(31:03):
play well with internationallaw, which is a whole other
conversation. But I think that'sanother thing where you have the
social impact of the framing ofhuman rights versus civil
rights. And then once you like,actually take that and put it
into the government, it's like,oh, this distinction actually
matters. And it mattersdifferently in both countries.
(31:23):
No,
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperling (31:25):
I think it's so important you
bring that up, because I thinkin my experience, the US to get
certain people who very muchbelieve in the US exceptionalism
to listen to must be spoken inthe language of the US. And when
and when you know, like, whatsounds like you're saying in
Chile, is that as many undocuments that the US has not
ratified would say, it's not aquestion, right? It sounds like
(31:46):
for many people, it's not aquestion these, you know, these
are human rights period. This iswhat this means. So it's
interesting to hear that veryclear understanding, you know,
in common under in common sortof backing, on the other side of
things where we are seeing, inparticular, in the United
States, a growing number oflegislation that's really trying
to harm the rights in particularof trans and non binary folks,
(32:07):
whether it's around access tohealth care, participation,
sports, things of that nature. Ithink it couldn't turn that I
always have is how our politicsand I would say our politics of
marginalization can spread. Andso I'm curious, like, I hope the
answer is no, of course. But youknow, I'm curious, like in
Chile, are we seeing any wavesof how those movements within
(32:29):
those kind of more right wingmovements in our own country are
spreading to a country likeChile? And if so, like, if there
are any particular things thatyou want to make sure an
audience knows and learns about?
Sam Apostolopoulos (32:40):
Yeah, well, I think so. I'm first gonna
ground this. And myunderstanding is pretty like a
while I've done a lot of legal,like legal history research and
social history stuff here. Andmy research doesn't necessarily
focus on current eventsentirely. I can like, just just
(33:00):
a preface with that. That beingsaid, during the campaigns for
the proposed Constitution here,which was in was voted on
September of last year, so inAugust of last year, and late
July, there was a I don't wantto say explicit misinformation
campaign. But there was someexaggeration that I heard about,
(33:23):
regarding the rights of likegender identity, that were
included in the document, thatthere wasn't a central focus of
the reject campaign. But it wasit I mean, like that was
present. I think one of thedifferences though, is that
Chile federally protects thoserights. So in Chile, there's a
(33:46):
right for trans people totransition. And with or without
medical intervention, with orwithout, like, going before a
judge, like just the right to dothose things. And I think
because that has already, likepassed Congress and exists, I
don't think that those attacksare as I don't say pertinent,
(34:06):
but as common because it's like,this is already a law. Whereas
in the US, it's creating aproblem out of something that
like really shouldn't be anissue, like, plainly. And I
think, in Chile, it's like this,this has already been addressed.
And while it can come up again,and has come up, to some extent,
I think a lot of that has beenkind of stifled by this just
(34:29):
generally, this is already thestate of affairs like this is
what's happened.
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperli (34:35):
Well, that gets me thinking because I
didn't really think about this,but it kind of helps me
understand even the fights inthe US by anti LGBTQ folks to
not have those protections.
Because if we don't have thoseprotections in our Constitution
are in our protect our legalsystem, then we can continue to
question the validity of theseidentities and these communities
(34:56):
and that so That's Thank you,because that kind of helps me I
think make more sense of thosestrategies that I don't like.
We're approaching kind of theclosing. So I just have a few
more questions. A lot of ourrhetoric is always from the US
perspective, what can the worldlearn from us? But what can the
world look in the US or fromChile? When it comes to either
(35:16):
how we address LGBTQ legalhistory, how we address LGBTQ
plus rights? Like, is there anyis there one or two things that
stand out to you is somethingthat like the United States
should really incorporate orlearn or be more in
conversation, perhaps withmovements in Chile around LGBTQ
communities and rights?
Sam Apostolopoulos (35:39):
Yeah, and I don't necessarily think that
this answer is explicit to whichland case, I think this is
probably the way that mostsystems do this. But I think in
the US, generally, there is ahesitancy to legislate on
rights, at least queer rights,quite literally every like,
queer rights case, that hashappened at the federal level
(36:02):
has happened in my lifetime,with the exception of Burma, but
like, that, is kind of crazy.
And like one, not being afraidto like, do the legislation, but
also not being afraid to likeactually advance the rights of
queer people, like queer peopleare still citizens, like they
deserve the same rights as othercitizens. So maybe protecting
them would be a move. I thinkthat's the big thing. It's just
(36:26):
like, in Chile, for the lastthree decades, there's been just
an I don't want to say, amassive amount of legislation
surrounding curfew, but it hasjust been like, oh, like there's
an issue that affects a portionof the population, let's fix
that. And the legislature,rather than in the US, where we
generally will fix at a statelevel, or like, activists will
(36:47):
sue their way to the SupremeCourt. Not that that's wrong,
because that is how our systemskind of designed to work. But it
doesn't have to work that way.
And Congress can pass laws thatcircumvent that whole process.
But it just doesn't. So I thinkthat's the big the big takeaway
is like, just like pass a law,like other countries have done
(37:11):
it, look at that. Right?
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperli (37:13):
Don't claim you care about us if
you're not going to do anything.
Right. Yeah. I think the lastfew questions is just, you know,
I think you've given a lot ofjust really important things for
anyone listening take away. Isthere anything else you'd like
to share? Whether related tothis specific topic or in
general? Like, is there any sortof lesson or idea you'd like an
audience to take away from thisconversation as relates to this
(37:34):
kind of larger topic of LGBTQrights, legal history, things of
that nature?
Sam Apostolopoulos (37:42):
I think the biggest thing is that just like,
every, every place, has a like,queer history. Like, regardless
of where it is, it exists. Andlike that needs to be studied,
that needs to be lifted up likeit, even if like you, as a
person, do not do history, like,even if you're not a queer
(38:04):
person, like this historymatters. It just matters and
needs to be done. And that workneeds to be done. And really
just like, think criticallyabout where you live, and if you
know about it, and if not, like,maybe Google it, maybe see if
those answers are there. And ifthey aren't, then that's a whole
adventure that you can go on.
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperling (38:24):
I want to say this with it with
like, caution. By that I justmean, you obviously I know have
a lot to move through as you'refinishing your grant and your
project. With that said, like,what are you currently thinking
about for the future? Or justeven dreaming of like, what is
what is Sam's dream at thismoment for the future that could
include a nap but I just thinkin general when it comes to your
work and other things?
Sam Apostolopoulos (38:47):
Well, my goal for my Fulbright experience
is to have a paper by the end ofit that I like, kind of sent out
to the gamut of journals, butwe'll see if that shakes out,
because I'm an unaffiliatedresearcher. And I've heard
that's kind of an uphill battleoutside of the Fulbright
experience I'm currentlyapplying to law schools. So
hopefully, I'm going to beapplying this legal or legal
(39:08):
history stuff in the US buildingon my Fulbright experience,
trying to make America more justplates. And really just working
on that. And then also likemoving forward digging into
this, like legal historyresearch more. Once I have like
more of a background and likethe law, because right now I'm
just kind of like a historiankind of doing it. And my hope is
(39:29):
that once I have more of like,the legal bones of it, I can be
like, now this is how this longworks. That kind of hurt. But
yeah, that's that's what I'mthinking about right now.
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperl (39:39):
That's a solid vision. And then I guess
my last question is just toanyone out there you know,
considering applying for aFulbright, right, who just has
an idea of ringing their head,you know, is interested,
obviously we have other programsteaching English, things of that
nature. Like what would you saythat person?
Sam Apostolopoulos (39:56):
Honestly, I like can't even describe the
ways in which Just that I havelike, grown as a person from
this experience. And if you hadtold me when I was applying for
this, that I would one, get it.
And to like, be here, I wouldn'thave believed you. Like, I have
grown so much. And there's somuch to gain from a Fulbright
from even applying, like Ilearned a lot about myself in
(40:19):
the application process. It'snot like a simple application.
Like there's a lot of, likeintrospection that I think
should go into it. But honestly,like, I could not recommend this
experience enough. Like, ifyou're even considering applying
for a Fulbright, like, do it.
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperli (40:37):
Well, Sam, thank you so much for
taking the time to be part ofthis episode. I definitely leave
you with lots to think about,and I've really enjoyed this
conversation. Thank you. Yeah,of course. Thank
Sam Apostolopoulos (40:46):
you so much.
Had a great time.
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperl (40:49):
That's all for this episode of
Fulbright forward. Remember thatyou can access our full library
of episodes on your favoritepodcast app such as Apple
podcasts, Spotify or overcast.
You also can see a list of someof the media and books that Sam
mentioned on this episode'sBuzzsprout page. Thank you for
listening. Take care, be welland support queer history.
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