On today’s podcast we feature esteemed Jewish Uruguayan Anthropologist, teacher, fiction author, and Fulbright alumna, Dr. Teresa Porzecanski. During today’s episode, Dr. Porzecanski and Fulbright WHA D&I Liaison, Jeremy Gombin-Sperling talk about her history of anthropological work in Uruguay on the Uruguayan Jewish population. In tracing this genealogy, we learn about Dr. Porzecanski’s efforts to preserve and conserve the stories of many Uruguayan Jews through her qualitative research, and the impact it had. This discussion also led us into reflecting on the nation-state as a concept, how nations build narratives to advance certain goals often at the cost of those most marginalized by it. Finally, we talk about Dr. Porzecanski’s career as a writer of novels and how her work as a Jewish academic and a writer have informed each other.
What becomes clear in this conversation is that academic research can have a social consciousness. The stories we gather through research can do more than just preserve the diverse histories of communities and people; the sharing of stories are a mode to shift consciousness, to reevaluate much of what many of us thought to be true, to better realize the complexities of those around us and those who lived before us.
Books referenced by Dr. Porzecanski:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperling (00:07):
My Jewish story is one of refugees.
Family on my dad's side escapedthe antisemitism in what was
once Galicia and is now part ofUkraine during the pogroms of
the early 20th century and cameto the United States. Family on
my mother's side escaped Polandin the 1930s, before World War
II, to allude the genocidalviolence of the Nazis and found
themselves in France, Brazil,Israel, and the U.S. Many, of
(00:30):
course could not escape. As withother groups of refugees and
migrants, many Jewishcommunities, including my own
faced or complied with thepressures to assimilate to their
new spaces, to forget or evenabandoned certain religious,
linguistic and culturalpractices. One of the problems
of assimilation is that itrequires an intentional
forgetting, a deliberateexclusion and erasure of the
stories that explain how we gothere and why we're here. In my
(00:54):
case, this meant that there wasmuch I did not know about my
past until I started to askquestions. Even the brief story
of my family I just shared is aproduct of many years of
ambivalence, and recently thoseof renewed energy, interest, and
a need to know who I am withthis has led to is not just
learning more about me, but ofthe millions of Jewish stories
out there, those that reflect myown as part of the Ashkenazi
(01:14):
diaspora in the late 19th and20th century, and those from
Sephardic, Mizrahim and otherJewish communities that in many
cases, dates centuries before.
So what happens when we begin torecover our stories to gather
them, document them and revivethem? How does the reclaiming of
stories we are told to forgetshift the narrative of not just
understanding the community suchstories represent, but also our
understandings of the places weare in our history and therefore
(01:37):
our collective future? Welcometo Fulbright Forward, a podcast
that explores the concepts ofdiversity access, equity,
inclusion and justice in theFulbright Program and the work
of Fulbright participants aroundthe world. I am Jeremy
Gombin-Sperling the FulbrightDiversity and Inclusion Liaison
for programs in the WesternHemisphere. On today's podcast,
we feature esteemed JewishUruguayan anthropologist,
(02:00):
teacher, fiction author, andFulbright alumna, Dr. Teresa
Porzecanski. During today'sepisode, Dr. Porzecanski and I
talk about her history ofanthropological work and it
would require on the UruguayanJewish population. In tracing
this genealogy, we learn aboutDr. Porzecanski's efforts to
preserve the stories of manyUruguayan Jews through her
(02:21):
qualitative research and theimpact that it had. This
discussion also led us intoreflecting on the nation state
as a concept, how nations buildnarratives to advance certain
goals often at the cost of thosemost marginalized by it often
intending to erase theirstories. Finally, we talk about
Dr. Porzecanski his career as awriter of novels, and how her
work as a Jewish academic andauthor have informed each other.
(02:43):
What becomes clear in thisconversation is that academic
research, fiction writing canall have a social consciousness.
The stories we gather can domore than just preserve the
diverse histories of communitiesand people. The sharing of
stories are a mode to shiftconsciousness, to reevaluate
much of what many of us thoughtto be true, to better realize
the complexity of those aroundus, and those who lived before
(03:06):
us. I hope you enjoy thiswonderful episode with Dr.
Porzecanski.
Teresa, thank you so much forbeing part of this episode of
Fulbright forward.
Teresa Porzecanski (03:19):
Thanks to you for inviting me.
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperling (03:22):
I'm just curious if you could talk a
little bit about just like, whatexperiences led you to your
research and work inanthropology, and you know, to
your Fulbright grant and justkind of what led you to begin to
study the Jewish community?
Teresa Porzecanski (03:38):
Yeah, of course, well, I had experiences
of several anti, antisemitism,when I was a young girl in
public school, two or threeexperiences. Then when I grew
up, I realized that the Jewishcommunity, in Uruguay and being
a minority, you know, wasreceiving in subtle ways. I
(04:01):
wouldn't say that it wasapparent or really a
manifestation, but in severalways, all these accumulated
social prejudices that had beenduring the Second World War and
before much before that, I firstbecame a social worker. Because
(04:27):
I thought, things I could changesome things and help people to,
you know, to read reality in adifferent way. But soon I
realized that that the deepcauses for for social prejudice
had to be identified andresearched in each society in
(04:49):
each social group, veryspecifically. So I became an
anthropologist and then also, Istudied hermeneutics and also
The communication tools andphilosophy are also because I
wanted to really discover whywhy societies create social
(05:13):
prejudice, I guess ethnicities,minorities, small social groups
that are seen as different,including the afrodescendant
groups, or including religions,religious groups that are not
traditional, or were nottraditional in the history of
(05:36):
Uruguay, and Latin America,like, for example, the beliefs
that the slaves brought andrecreated in Latin America. So
all these questions led me toAnthropology and then then I
realized that Anthropologycangive some hypotheses. But
(05:57):
anthropology doesn't have theultimate, the ultimate reason or
explanation for these.
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperli (06:07):
Thank you so much. Yeah, no, I think
that's a really helpful answerthis kind of understanding what
led you to anthropology as a wayof doing this sort of analysis
that came in-- sounds like fromexperiences you had, but also
began to look at some of thedifferent communities you wanted
to help or support. I had apersonal interest, of course, in
doing an episode on this themearound, um, specifically
(06:27):
understanding the history ofJewish communities in Latin
America. And you know, one thingI know that a lot of your work,
as you named earlier hasrevolved around doing that work
and doing that study through ananthropological lens in Uruguay,
particularly, you know, as me asa US as a US person who's
Jewish, whose family, you know,has the diaspora story of
(06:49):
escaping the Holocaust andterror in Poland. You know,
many, most of my family ended upin the united states, but some
also ended up in Brazil. Andsome of that was because the US
was not letting in Jewish folkswho are trying to escape at the
time. And what I've learned isthat I think many folks in the
diaspora, especially those inthe US don't always know about
(07:10):
the history of the Jewishcommunities in Latin America,
which is just not Ashkenazicommunities, it's also Sephardic
communities and other groupswithin the Jewish Diaspora that
also came in waves prior to, youknow, the 30s into the 40s. So
I'm just curious, as you know,as a scholar, like, what do you
believe are just importantaspects or historical moments
(07:31):
that people should know moreabout in order to understand the
Latin American Jewishexperience? And again, knowing
it's a large question if you'drather use or just speak to
Uruguay, as the example and whatyou know, from your work
absolutely fine, but really justwant to explore that, that
question of the importanthistorical moments in sort of
the development of Jewishcommunities throughout Latin
America, or specificallyUruguay.
Teresa Porzecanski (07:54):
Well, I was led to, to research and to make
visible this situation minority.
You know, like, I understoodthat prej- social prejudice has
many reasons in order torecreate it. But one of the
reasons is, one of the reasonsis that people knows little or
(08:14):
nothing about this minorities.
So it is seen as something thatthey cannot understand, no, it's
going to be created as a virtualenemy, or it's going to be
created. I am a constructionist,that's why I'm speaking in this
(08:37):
way, like, of all the hypothesesthat are on this problem of
social prejudice. The main thingis that you create this enemy,
whatever it is, the enemy youcreate the people creates this
enemy, in order to find theirown identity as we, as we have
(08:58):
sent us. And so So I started tomake this of all the reasons to
research on the Jewish communitythrough qualitative research,
that is oral history andautobiographies of people that I
well, I have. Now this is thethird edition of this book. Life
(09:20):
started here, tuition me grantin your way. When they tell
their own stories, it's visiblethat they weren't the voluntary
migrants. They didn't come fromEurope and because they wanted
to make a better life as was, asyou could say about the
(09:40):
migrations before the FirstWorld War. No, these people came
because they were pursued,because they couldn't stay,
because they were expelled. Andthen the this concept of
migrants in the case of theJewish minority is more near to
the concept of refugees. So notvoluntary migrants, you could
(10:02):
think of voluntary migrants whenthe Spaniards and the Italians
came during the 19th century. Sothere's a saying in Uruguay, you
know, where did the Uruguayanscome from. And there's a famous
author who said, they come fromthe boats, because that, they
indigenous and native peopleshad been, they were
(10:24):
exterminated, their demographywas very low, so they weren't
many. And so this land was voidpractically. And so the
Spaniards and the Italians, thetwo big immigrations during the
19th century were founders ofthe, of the country and creators
(10:46):
of the culture. Okay, so thisminority of Jewish immigrants
that comes after the First WorldWar, and during the 20s, and the
30s, were refugees that wereexpelled from their countries.
And many times, they were at thelimits, at the limits of being
(11:10):
murdered or being exterminatedby other means. So that's why
what I showed through the,through the autobiographies is
they really are telling how, howdid they immigrate and why, why.
In those times, of course, thisparting was saying forever, I
(11:33):
will not see you, like the oldpeople had to stay there, old
people, the elders have to stay.
And there was a real parting anda real transculturation, I would
say in their own life. The firstedition was like, you know,
immediately everybody, the, theJewish community read about
themselves also, and thenon-Jewish people read about the
(11:56):
Jewish community, which is a wayof, you know, learning history,
is a way of bringing conscienceabout who is who. Also, it had
great, great consequences forthe Jewish community, Ashkenazi,
Spehardic, Mizrahim in Uruguay,because when the Jewish
(12:21):
community was able to see thatsomebody wrote about them, and
that their their own lives wereimportant, as an experience,
that is not only individual, butcollective. This was a change
for them. They acquire morestrength to be eh in this new
country. And they're theirdescendants also that are
(12:45):
Uruguayan, got the ability torecognize that they have the
right they have the right to beJewish in a country that's free
of cults. I don't know that theright translation is you can be
of any religion, according tothe Constitution in your work.
So you also can be Jewish.
(13:09):
Then when I realized that otherminorities came in, to knock to
my house and said, theArmenians, we want to do a
bookexactly. ThenAfrodescendants, so we want to
do a book and you have to teachus and they did. This was a real
experience, I was able to put onthe general agenda, the ex, the
(13:33):
existence, existence ofdifferent histories of different
minorities, and they that changethe whole were way of looking at
the Uuguayan society instead ofbeing a homogenous sort of
(13:54):
collective, they could realizethere were differences and the
differences should be recognizedand respected. So I did a book
of history, of the exclusion ofAfrodescendants. Also, I did
this with the autobiographiesand with oral history together
(14:16):
with a colleague, Beatriz Santosand the Armenians did their own
book. And then somethingwonderful happened, like the
government decided to to honorthis differences of minorities
having Day of the Immigrant.
With that in this day of theimmigrant that was going to be
(14:37):
every years of celebration. Soso the thing that started as a
research on the small Jewishcommunity in your way that got
bigger and bigger and changed inmany ways, their way of
interpreting differences and inmy own way of seeing this, also
(14:59):
brought a less possibilities ofgrowing social prejudices. All
things are related, one to theother. And when an intellectual
presents real research that isacademic, but it's also moving
the conscience, the socialconscience, I think that's why
(15:23):
social sciences are for. Nowthey are not for writing papers
that no one reads; is forchanging the social reality is
her letting prejudice not toexist? Isn't understanding isn't
understanding who I am? Who arewe? That that's it?
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperling (15:46):
I guess what I'd like to ask this
back to the Jewish communityinUruguay and your research is, it
makes sense because we come fromso many different places in the
world and different ways ofunderstanding Judaism. And that
not not every Jewish personrealizes the true diversity of
Jewish people. And so I'mcurious in your research, how
that has impacted both yourexperience as an Uruguayan
(16:10):
Jewish woman and also just like,how the Jewish communities
perhaps within Uruguay havereflected on that as well too,
of just like learning about thathistory, learning about that
diversity and learning moreabout like the existence of
other Jewish people, if thatmakes sense.
Teresa Porzecanski (16:26):
Of course, the Jewish community didn't know
except for their ownintellectuals that weren't many,
how they they came, why theycame. They knew their own lives,
they, each individual's, butthey didn't know that the
Sephardic had different ways ofpraying and different rituals
(16:49):
from the Ashkenazi. They didn'tknow that there were Yiddish
elementary schools that weremaking emphasis on the Yiddish
learning and not the Hebrewlamb. They didn't know that the
Mizrahim had different ways ofperforming the rituals, and
(17:12):
practicing religions. So this,this book also made this
affirmation. In a way this iskind of saying, okay, we are we
but inside a we, there's a lotof differences. And there were
groups that are Zionist, thereare groups that are not Zio,
(17:34):
Zionist, there are groups thatare left wing groups that are
against the left wing, there aregroups are groups, por-Yiddish,
and there are groups pro-Hebrew.
And so this was able to be seenin the book. Then there were
other students of mine, andcolleagues that started to go on
(17:54):
specifically, on the Jews thatcame from Germany. There were
theses and PhD papers aboutspecifically some of these
subcommunities inside the Jewishcommunity. So when I started the
gateway to a lot ofdevelopments, and then also what
(18:18):
I started as qualitativeresearch was very much accepted,
because you cannot work withstatistics. It doesn't mean the
statistics do not show what wasthe real reason why the Jews
came to Latin America and toUruguay. And then then we I had
(18:39):
the opportunity two years ago togo to the University of Florida,
who was doing an exhibition ofthe publication, publications of
the Jewish communities, all overLatin America. We found all
kinds of books in Hebrew, inEnglish, of all kinds of
(19:00):
ideologies, within Judaism, likethose that are not religious,
that those are very, veryreligious. So, what is important
as you ask is to see thisdiversity, and not to stereotype
a Jewish community as ahomogeneous, collective, because
they aren't. So every-- allthese is a lot in terms that if
(19:25):
my first book about this subjectwas in 1986, all that has
happened in in the Uruguayansociety since 1986 to the
present there has to do withthis new way of moving thoughts
(19:46):
and moving the socialconstructions to, to... from
homogeneity, to diversity, andindirectly to lower social
prejudice.
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperling (20:01):
I think what's interesting for me
is I've tried to do more tolearn about the histories of my
family. And I think what I'vealso learned is just a lot of...
a lot of people in my familystill carry a lot of trauma from
growing up at a time where, youknow, it will and this may lead
into the next question of justthe focus was, for example, my
mom's generation of trying tojust be as American as possible,
(20:23):
trying to be as much in the U.S.
as possible, to assimilate asmuch as possible because of past
antisemitism abroad. And thennew anti semitism, or maybe some
of the same in the U.S. At thesame time, the moment that I
would ask the question to familyof like, can you tell me the
story, I would get the story.
But it was just an interestingthing of just sometimes asking
(20:45):
the question, because even withmy father, I asked about our
family's history, and he justsaid, "we never talked about it
growing up." And so it's justone of those things that, you
know, finding ways to access thestories is so important, because
we don't want to-- I don't wantthem to be lost. And I think
that's such a powerful thingthat you have done such work to
keep these stories alive forpeople in so many ways.
Teresa Porzecanski (21:06):
One consequence of this research and
this book, and all these changein the way of seeing the
Uruguayans seeing themselves upas diversity, as a diverse
society was at an elementaryschool, there was a new task
that was given to the childrenthat was a genealogic tree, no?
(21:32):
Do your genealogical tree. Notthe, not only the Jewish
schools, but all schools, itstarted to be important for the
teachers and for the personsthat you know that are
interested in origins andsources that the children could
know where do they come from,where they come from? Who was
(21:57):
your grandfather? He wasItalian. Where did he come from?
From this little town in Italy.
Okay, what language did hespeak? aAnd everything on that.
So I think the notion of beingforeign, it could be positive,
is positive, is positive, in theway that the children started to
(22:21):
learn that they weren't born in,like a plant. They are not
plants, they had their roots.
And the rotts was, well, thegrandfather and great grandfath-
fathers, and also including theJewish people. So every person
(22:43):
that's Jewish now, in your way,will tell you okay, my
grandfather came from me fromUkraine. Where in Ukraine? Well,
this little town, this schtetlin Ukraine, that doesn't exist
anymore. And so this is a kindof education that children in
all countries should have.
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperli (23:04):
Yeah, I mean, that is, that is not
part of, I know, a lot ofpeople's experiences actually
being asked to sort of really dothat building of your history at
such a young age, which I feellike can deeply shape you know,
how you also value yourself ifyou're able to learn more about
that. Moving on to the topic ofUruguay, I think, just in
(23:24):
learning more about you anddoing some research, you know, I
came across some differentwritings about just even how you
have uh taken time to sort oflook at Uruguay as sort of a
nation state, the politicalproject of constructing what is
Uruguayanness, what does it meanto be Urugyayan? And, and a lot
of times that what that does isit creates narratives and
(23:45):
stories, some that have truth,some that may be to push
political means or certaingoals. And I know that you've
done a lot of these studies isyou've named right through the
extent setting the experiencesof others groups and communities
that have been marginalized bythe state, whether that's women,
indigenous people, you've talkeda lot about Afr descendant
(24:06):
communities. So I'm justcurious, like, how does that
work you've done on sort ofstudying the kind of history
will require as a nation state,how is that related to or just
informed the study you've doneof Jewish diasporic communities?
Teresa Porzecanski (24:23):
Yeah, well, you started studying, studying,
researching minorities and youand you and researching the
whole society. Because forexample, if you compare your way
to, to Peru, or to Mexico, rightthe two big nations that I have
(24:43):
a lot of native, native citizenscoming from surviving cultures
after the conquest, but Uruguaydoesn't have that. Doesn't have
native. Yes Uruguay wanted eh,the Uruguayan society after the
end of the dictatorship. Theycreated m,yths, you know, they
(25:07):
wanted to be more Latin Americanbecause they were called like,
European, like a Europeancountry. They did-- you wouldn't
come, you wouldn't see anynatives. So where are the
natives? They have beenexterminated. They were very
few. So you're surprised by theemergence of this, like clubs or
(25:28):
ONGS that are revindicated,revindicate. Reclaiming, for,
for for the native identity. Weare descendants from the
Charruas, we are descendantsfrom the Guaranis. Actually, the
Guaranis, we're not completelyexterminated. And some of them
(25:49):
could live inside the Catholicsocieties. But they are not a
number that could change thisEuropean face of the Uruguayan
society. But where I thenstarted studying why the
Uruguayans needed myths, mythswith which be more like the the
(26:12):
nations in Latin America thatreally had really a great big
component of native cultureslike Mexico where they speak
more than 300 hundred dialects,Peru, Bolivia, even a part of
Brazil in the north. So Istarted to write a why the
(26:34):
Uruguayans wants wanted to bemore like the other nations of
Latin America. And that'sbecause they had a sense of
guilt. And there were then theartists were start, start to
write some dramas, some playsabout extermination, the last
(26:55):
one extermination of natives atSalsipuedes. Salsipuedes is a
place. They were trapped andexterminated by the descendants
of Spaniards. And when I wrotethis, I realized I was
researching like, like theconstructions that societies do
(27:17):
in order to solve eh, problemsof blame or guilty, or
insecurities. Okay, that changedthe whole Uruguayan mentality. I
wouldn't say that my writings,not only me, is what I work with
two great important historiansGerardo Caetano and Barrán. We
(27:43):
wrote three books about thesensibility. What are the
sensibilities? The way offeelings, the way the society
thinks about itself. Okay, so sothat was very important,
especially when the dictatorshipended. And there was a need of
(28:05):
reframe the national identity.
Who are we? So? Are we reallydemocratic? Are we really not
religious like atheism in thegovernment? Do we have beliefs?
What are those beliefs to? Do?
We wish that the native whatwould., wouldn't have been
(28:26):
exterminated? So, so all theseconstructions were a matter of
research. So understanding whatis Uruguay also gave me light
into why they should haveconstruct prejudice. And what
were the problems they have tobe part of this kind of
(28:49):
European, so different fromMiddle America from, from these
big countries with a lot ofnative population.
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperlin (29:00):
What I hear what I hear you're
talking about is this series ofdictatorships that happened in
Latin America in the 20thcentury in particular, right?
You know, Uruguay being one ofthose countries as well, too,
but just sort of like therebuilding moment of like, how
do we kind of recover? It soundslike also, there's these
questions of what is our kind oflike, collective guilt In some
(29:22):
ways? You know, what, whatquestions do we have to resolve?
And I think what you have namedto is like, what myths or
stories do we either have to notnecessarily recreate, but keep
reproducing, to make this nationstory a "reality." And I use
that with quotes just to saylike, as you've named, right,
like, every person's experienceis different based on who they
(29:44):
are. So that reality of beingUruguayan may feel much more
accessible or real to somepeople than others, depending on
what their experiences in acommunity but also as they're
treated by the state.
Teresa Porzecanski (29:57):
Yeah, I guess you just said it very
well, also, what is the mirrorin which you look, you're, you
look at yourself as a society.
Uruguayans have had, accordingto my point of view, had to
remake their own identity afterthe end of the dictatorship.
(30:20):
There are many things thathappened during the dictatorship
that showed the country the waythey were interpreting
themselves. So many peopledidn't want to recognize that
they collaborated with adictatorship. And not everybody
thought it, it was so bad,because before that, we had a
(30:44):
years of terrorism, years of howdo you say, disorder? Then
there's also, there was aresearch, not by me, but other
like reporters about how nothonest they were. So that now
everything is coming to light,because there was time enough
(31:06):
for the people to confess howthey worked, and where they get
the money, how they, what theydo with the stolen money, stolen
from the government, and stolenfrom the private sphere. And so
everything is coming to lightnow. It's not a beautiful
photograph, it's ugly. It'sugly.
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperlin (31:34):
When you say the mirror, I think it
makes me think that if you aregoing to look at the mirror, you
have to be ready to seeeverything. You can't just look
at some pieces and ignore therest. Working off of this sort
of discussion, I think I'mcurious in the work that you've
done and even understan, evenjust this, this different type
of analyses you put forwardaround the Uruguayan nation
(31:57):
state like where where do youunderstand as Jewish Uruguayans
kind of seeing themselves,right, and the different
understandings of race, ofgender, of class, of nationality
within Uruguay. Knowing that, ofcourse, like Jewish people, like
any community carry multipleidentities and different
experiences that we, as wediscussed, but I'm just curious,
(32:19):
like, you know, because I think,obviously, the U.S. is different
in many ways. But you know, wehave this very specific
understandings of race andgender. Like we've had a lot of
conversations in the US about,you know, are white Jewish
people white, things of thatnature. So I'm just curious,
like, in Uruguay, yeah, what,when it comes to these
conversations of how Jewishpeople see themselves within the
(32:39):
nation state, what does thatlook like? Or what are those
conversations'
Teresa Porzecanski (32:43):
There's a lot of assimilation, as the new
generations, there's a lot. Andalso, there's a lot of going
back to the rituals and becomingmore religious. That's the other
trend as the young people, like,trying to go back to the roots
(33:03):
of Judaism. Judaism has certainvalues and ways of thinking and
interpreting the world that thatcertain the new generation, some
of them, they don't want tolose, then it is easier to
adjust and to disappear. That'seasier, because then you don't
(33:25):
care about antisemitism, youdon't care about anything. But
the foundation of of Israel wasvery important for the Jewish
community in Uruguay. It was asmall community but many people
decided, well, I have tocollaborate with Israel. It's,
(33:46):
it's not any country. It's not acountry like all other
countries. It's a country thatfor many is a result of this
long, long, long waiting to comeback to coming back. For the
very religious is, is it's aprophecy that theJewish people
(34:07):
would go back to this place. Notto any place, to this place. And
so there was a lot of Alliyah,from the Jewish community, to
Israel, especially young people.
There were these Jewish youngeryouth organizations like,
Hashomer Hatzair, like Idema,like all kinds of youth
(34:31):
organizations that werepreparing to come to live in the
kibbutzim. There's going to bethis place where there is not
any antisemitism. So. so therewas a lot of Alliyah from the
Jewish so it was from 40,000people like in the middle of the
(34:52):
of the 50s or at 1950, 4, 40,000Jewish people. They descended to
12,000 because their elderswould stay. I don't say that
everyone in the Jewish communitycame to Israel. I'm saying that
(35:13):
they left for different places,mainly to Israel. But some of
them went to the U.S., some ofthem to Europe, some of them to
look for their roots in Germany,where they have been expelled in
Spain, where they have beenexpelled from, right? And so
(35:34):
that's, that's why Judaism is sointeresting historically.
Because there's a lot of thingsgoing on at the same time to to
build this kind of identity. Whoare we?
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperling (35:52):
You know, something I think I think
about two, which is something Ithink you talked about in your
answer is also like, where isour home? Yeah. You know, which
is an interesting question to, Ithink, for any Jewish person to
kind of ponder because, youknow, we have the power of
making any place our home, andwhat you also referencing is the
fact that there are lots ofpeople who, in the wake of the
(36:15):
end of World War II and otherthings, were trying to either
find new places whereantisemitism did not exist or
also rebuild other places aswell.
Teresa Porzecanski (36:25):
Yes, yeah.
Yes. So so it's looking for thepromised land. And this promised
land is in your mind, because inthe real world, it's not so easy
to find the promised land, butit's a nice idea for Judaism,
the looking for the promisedland. And this diaspora is, the
(36:48):
almost, is a way, a school wherewe all have learned during
millennials, a lot of things wehave learned a lot of things,
things all over the world, asall cultures, and then bringing
this back to this promised land.
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperling (37:14):
I know you've done a lot of
different kinds of work, thatyour your your academic work is
not strictly on anthropology,you've also been a writer of
novels and poetry. How was doingthat work formed everything else
that you've done?
Teresa Porzecanski (37:27):
Yeah, well, they both informing each other.
They just like academic work hasits rules, it's meth-
methodology. But at this otherway of interpreting reality is
fiction, it's fiction. Allfiction still has some touch
(37:49):
with real experiences, there isnot a fiction completely
divorced, by personalexperiences, even if those
experiences are not shownrealistically, in a work of art.
I've written about seven novels.
They all have a Jewishcharacter, or more than one. And
(38:11):
it's funny because that manywriters, many Jewish writers are
maybe afraid or shy to writewith about Jewish characters. In
being born in Uruguay or inLatin America. So of course, I
had this need to write storiesabout, that are connected to my
(38:39):
personal life, either mySephardic family on my mother's
side, or on my father's side,but so transformed that you
wouldn't recognize it. But ofcourse, then then there is this
relationship, or I feel there isthis relationship with these
(39:02):
characters that I, I've, I'vemet so well. So I um, what is
uh, rather is surprising for methat all the prizes I was
awarded in Uruguay they don'tever mention I am Jewish. He'll
say, Well, they say TeresaPorzecanski wrote this novel
(39:26):
that analyzed the text. Theyshould write, someone should
write that I'm really Jewish.
And because also the novel is aJewish novel. This is not any
novel. And this shows how Ithink they don't touch this
(39:46):
subject. It's a way of puttinginto a void the subject of my
Jewish identity, the fact thatled me to write about this
Jewish characters. It's not acoincidence. So I'm very
grateful for their words andeverything. But I would have
liked somebody to study thisrelationship between being
(40:10):
Jewish and going into specificsubjects.
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperlin (40:15):
What would you like in the audience
listening to this episode totake way from the conversation,
whether that's a particularpoint you've made a mark, just
something you want people toeven think about who are
Teresa Porzecanski (40:26):
Yeah, well, the obvious thing is that the
listening?
Jewish migration is not just anymigration. It was, it came to
Uruguay, because of specificreasons. They were refugees. The
government in those years, wouldforbid, some, some boats and
(40:49):
some people to get into Uruguaylike denying the visas, the
visas, for getting into Uruguay.
So, this shows how theUruguayana society wasn't
different of all societies withthis accumulation of prejudice.
And when what I would like tothe people to understand is that
(41:10):
social prejudicethis is aconstruction of stereotypes, a
simplification andgeneralization that no society
can afford to have to maintain.
Because it's dividing. It'sgoing against the community, and
(41:33):
it's dangerous. It's dangerous.
And I want to thank you. I willrecommend the Fulbright
Commission to go on awardingthese scholarships, I think they
are very useful. So thank you, alot. Jeremy,
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperli (41:51):
Thank you so much, Teresa, for your
time today.
And that's all for this episodeof Fulbright forward. Thank you
so much for listening. For alist of resources mentioned in
today's episode, you can go tothe Fulbright Forward website
hosted on our Buzzsprout page.
Remember also, you can subscribeto Fullbright Forward through
your favorite podcast app likeApple podcasts or Spotify, as
well as follow the podcast andInstagram. Again I'm Jeremy
(42:13):
Gombin-Sperling FulbrightDiversity and Inclusion liaison
for programs in the WesternHemisphere. Be well stay safe,
and until next time,
My Jewish story is one of refugees.
Family on my dad's side escapedthe antisemitism in what was
once Galicia and is now part ofUkraine during the pogroms of
the early 20th century and cameto the United States. Family on
my mother's side escaped Polandin the 1930s, before World War
II, to allude the genocidalviolence of the Nazis and found
themselves in France, Brazil,Israel, and the U.S. Many, of
(00:30):
course could not escape. As withother groups of refugees and
migrants, many Jewishcommunities, including my own
faced or complied with thepressures to assimilate to their
new spaces, to forget or evenabandoned certain religious,
linguistic and culturalpractices. One of the problems
of assimilation is that itrequires an intentional
forgetting, a deliberateexclusion and erasure of the
stories that explain how we gothere and why we're here. In my
(00:54):
case, this meant that there wasmuch I did not know about my
past until I started to askquestions. Even the brief story
of my family I just shared is aproduct of many years of
ambivalence, and recently thoseof renewed energy, interest, and
a need to know who I am withthis has led to is not just
learning more about me, but ofthe millions of Jewish stories
out there, those that reflect myown as part of the Ashkenazi
(01:14):
diaspora in the late 19th and20th century, and those from
Sephardic, Mizrahim and otherJewish communities that in many
cases, dates centuries before.
So what happens when we begin torecover our stories to gather
them, document them and revivethem? How does the reclaiming of
stories we are told to forgetshift the narrative of not just
understanding the community suchstories represent, but also our
understandings of the places weare in our history and therefore
(01:37):
our collective future? Welcometo Fulbright Forward, a podcast
that explores the concepts ofdiversity access, equity,
inclusion and justice in theFulbright Program and the work
of Fulbright participants aroundthe world. I am Jeremy
Gombin-Sperling the FulbrightDiversity and Inclusion Liaison
for programs in the WesternHemisphere. On today's podcast,
we feature esteemed JewishUruguayan anthropologist,
(02:00):
teacher, fiction author, andFulbright alumna, Dr. Teresa
Porzecanski. During today'sepisode, Dr. Porzecanski and I
talk about her history ofanthropological work and it
would require on the UruguayanJewish population. In tracing
this genealogy, we learn aboutDr. Porzecanski's efforts to
preserve the stories of manyUruguayan Jews through her
(02:21):
qualitative research and theimpact that it had. This
discussion also led us intoreflecting on the nation state
as a concept, how nations buildnarratives to advance certain
goals often at the cost of thosemost marginalized by it often
intending to erase theirstories. Finally, we talk about
Dr. Porzecanski his career as awriter of novels, and how her
work as a Jewish academic andauthor have informed each other.
(02:43):
What becomes clear in thisconversation is that academic
research, fiction writing canall have a social consciousness.
The stories we gather can domore than just preserve the
diverse histories of communitiesand people. The sharing of
stories are a mode to shiftconsciousness, to reevaluate
much of what many of us thoughtto be true, to better realize
the complexity of those aroundus, and those who lived before
(03:06):
us. I hope you enjoy thiswonderful episode with Dr.
Porzecanski.
Teresa, thank you so much forbeing part of this episode of
Fulbright forward.
Teresa Porzecanski (03:19):
Thanks to you for inviting me.
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperling (03:22):
I'm just curious if you could talk a
little bit about just like, whatexperiences led you to your
research and work inanthropology, and you know, to
your Fulbright grant and justkind of what led you to begin to
study the Jewish community?
Teresa Porzecanski (03:38):
Yeah, of course, well, I had experiences
of several anti, antisemitism,when I was a young girl in
public school, two or threeexperiences. Then when I grew
up, I realized that the Jewishcommunity, in Uruguay and being
a minority, you know, wasreceiving in subtle ways. I
(04:01):
wouldn't say that it wasapparent or really a
manifestation, but in severalways, all these accumulated
social prejudices that had beenduring the Second World War and
before much before that, I firstbecame a social worker. Because
(04:27):
I thought, things I could changesome things and help people to,
you know, to read reality in adifferent way. But soon I
realized that that the deepcauses for for social prejudice
had to be identified andresearched in each society in
(04:49):
each social group, veryspecifically. So I became an
anthropologist and then also, Istudied hermeneutics and also
The communication tools andphilosophy are also because I
wanted to really discover whywhy societies create social
(05:13):
prejudice, I guess ethnicities,minorities, small social groups
that are seen as different,including the afrodescendant
groups, or including religions,religious groups that are not
traditional, or were nottraditional in the history of
(05:36):
Uruguay, and Latin America,like, for example, the beliefs
that the slaves brought andrecreated in Latin America. So
all these questions led me toAnthropology and then then I
realized that Anthropologycangive some hypotheses. But
(05:57):
anthropology doesn't have theultimate, the ultimate reason or
explanation for these.
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperli (06:07):
Thank you so much. Yeah, no, I think
that's a really helpful answerthis kind of understanding what
led you to anthropology as a wayof doing this sort of analysis
that came in-- sounds like fromexperiences you had, but also
began to look at some of thedifferent communities you wanted
to help or support. I had apersonal interest, of course, in
doing an episode on this themearound, um, specifically
(06:27):
understanding the history ofJewish communities in Latin
America. And you know, one thingI know that a lot of your work,
as you named earlier hasrevolved around doing that work
and doing that study through ananthropological lens in Uruguay,
particularly, you know, as me asa US as a US person who's
Jewish, whose family, you know,has the diaspora story of
(06:49):
escaping the Holocaust andterror in Poland. You know,
many, most of my family ended upin the united states, but some
also ended up in Brazil. Andsome of that was because the US
was not letting in Jewish folkswho are trying to escape at the
time. And what I've learned isthat I think many folks in the
diaspora, especially those inthe US don't always know about
(07:10):
the history of the Jewishcommunities in Latin America,
which is just not Ashkenazicommunities, it's also Sephardic
communities and other groupswithin the Jewish Diaspora that
also came in waves prior to, youknow, the 30s into the 40s. So
I'm just curious, as you know,as a scholar, like, what do you
believe are just importantaspects or historical moments
(07:31):
that people should know moreabout in order to understand the
Latin American Jewishexperience? And again, knowing
it's a large question if you'drather use or just speak to
Uruguay, as the example and whatyou know, from your work
absolutely fine, but really justwant to explore that, that
question of the importanthistorical moments in sort of
the development of Jewishcommunities throughout Latin
America, or specificallyUruguay.
Teresa Porzecanski (07:54):
Well, I was led to, to research and to make
visible this situation minority.
You know, like, I understoodthat prej- social prejudice has
many reasons in order torecreate it. But one of the
reasons is, one of the reasonsis that people knows little or
(08:14):
nothing about this minorities.
So it is seen as something thatthey cannot understand, no, it's
going to be created as a virtualenemy, or it's going to be
created. I am a constructionist,that's why I'm speaking in this
(08:37):
way, like, of all the hypothesesthat are on this problem of
social prejudice. The main thingis that you create this enemy,
whatever it is, the enemy youcreate the people creates this
enemy, in order to find theirown identity as we, as we have
(08:58):
sent us. And so So I started tomake this of all the reasons to
research on the Jewish communitythrough qualitative research,
that is oral history andautobiographies of people that I
well, I have. Now this is thethird edition of this book. Life
(09:20):
started here, tuition me grantin your way. When they tell
their own stories, it's visiblethat they weren't the voluntary
migrants. They didn't come fromEurope and because they wanted
to make a better life as was, asyou could say about the
(09:40):
migrations before the FirstWorld War. No, these people came
because they were pursued,because they couldn't stay,
because they were expelled. Andthen the this concept of
migrants in the case of theJewish minority is more near to
the concept of refugees. So notvoluntary migrants, you could
(10:02):
think of voluntary migrants whenthe Spaniards and the Italians
came during the 19th century. Sothere's a saying in Uruguay, you
know, where did the Uruguayanscome from. And there's a famous
author who said, they come fromthe boats, because that, they
indigenous and native peopleshad been, they were
(10:24):
exterminated, their demographywas very low, so they weren't
many. And so this land was voidpractically. And so the
Spaniards and the Italians, thetwo big immigrations during the
19th century were founders ofthe, of the country and creators
(10:46):
of the culture. Okay, so thisminority of Jewish immigrants
that comes after the First WorldWar, and during the 20s, and the
30s, were refugees that wereexpelled from their countries.
And many times, they were at thelimits, at the limits of being
(11:10):
murdered or being exterminatedby other means. So that's why
what I showed through the,through the autobiographies is
they really are telling how, howdid they immigrate and why, why.
In those times, of course, thisparting was saying forever, I
(11:33):
will not see you, like the oldpeople had to stay there, old
people, the elders have to stay.
And there was a real parting anda real transculturation, I would
say in their own life. The firstedition was like, you know,
immediately everybody, the, theJewish community read about
themselves also, and thenon-Jewish people read about the
(11:56):
Jewish community, which is a wayof, you know, learning history,
is a way of bringing conscienceabout who is who. Also, it had
great, great consequences forthe Jewish community, Ashkenazi,
Spehardic, Mizrahim in Uruguay,because when the Jewish
(12:21):
community was able to see thatsomebody wrote about them, and
that their their own lives wereimportant, as an experience,
that is not only individual, butcollective. This was a change
for them. They acquire morestrength to be eh in this new
country. And they're theirdescendants also that are
(12:45):
Uruguayan, got the ability torecognize that they have the
right they have the right to beJewish in a country that's free
of cults. I don't know that theright translation is you can be
of any religion, according tothe Constitution in your work.
So you also can be Jewish.
(13:09):
Then when I realized that otherminorities came in, to knock to
my house and said, theArmenians, we want to do a
bookexactly. ThenAfrodescendants, so we want to
do a book and you have to teachus and they did. This was a real
experience, I was able to put onthe general agenda, the ex, the
(13:33):
existence, existence ofdifferent histories of different
minorities, and they that changethe whole were way of looking at
the Uuguayan society instead ofbeing a homogenous sort of
(13:54):
collective, they could realizethere were differences and the
differences should be recognizedand respected. So I did a book
of history, of the exclusion ofAfrodescendants. Also, I did
this with the autobiographiesand with oral history together
(14:16):
with a colleague, Beatriz Santosand the Armenians did their own
book. And then somethingwonderful happened, like the
government decided to to honorthis differences of minorities
having Day of the Immigrant.
With that in this day of theimmigrant that was going to be
(14:37):
every years of celebration. Soso the thing that started as a
research on the small Jewishcommunity in your way that got
bigger and bigger and changed inmany ways, their way of
interpreting differences and inmy own way of seeing this, also
(14:59):
brought a less possibilities ofgrowing social prejudices. All
things are related, one to theother. And when an intellectual
presents real research that isacademic, but it's also moving
the conscience, the socialconscience, I think that's why
(15:23):
social sciences are for. Nowthey are not for writing papers
that no one reads; is forchanging the social reality is
her letting prejudice not toexist? Isn't understanding isn't
understanding who I am? Who arewe? That that's it?
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperling (15:46):
I guess what I'd like to ask this
back to the Jewish communityinUruguay and your research is, it
makes sense because we come fromso many different places in the
world and different ways ofunderstanding Judaism. And that
not not every Jewish personrealizes the true diversity of
Jewish people. And so I'mcurious in your research, how
that has impacted both yourexperience as an Uruguayan
(16:10):
Jewish woman and also just like,how the Jewish communities
perhaps within Uruguay havereflected on that as well too,
of just like learning about thathistory, learning about that
diversity and learning moreabout like the existence of
other Jewish people, if thatmakes sense.
Teresa Porzecanski (16:26):
Of course, the Jewish community didn't know
except for their ownintellectuals that weren't many,
how they they came, why theycame. They knew their own lives,
they, each individual's, butthey didn't know that the
Sephardic had different ways ofpraying and different rituals
(16:49):
from the Ashkenazi. They didn'tknow that there were Yiddish
elementary schools that weremaking emphasis on the Yiddish
learning and not the Hebrewlamb. They didn't know that the
Mizrahim had different ways ofperforming the rituals, and
(17:12):
practicing religions. So this,this book also made this
affirmation. In a way this iskind of saying, okay, we are we
but inside a we, there's a lotof differences. And there were
groups that are Zionist, thereare groups that are not Zio,
(17:34):
Zionist, there are groups thatare left wing groups that are
against the left wing, there aregroups are groups, por-Yiddish,
and there are groups pro-Hebrew.
And so this was able to be seenin the book. Then there were
other students of mine, andcolleagues that started to go on
(17:54):
specifically, on the Jews thatcame from Germany. There were
theses and PhD papers aboutspecifically some of these
subcommunities inside the Jewishcommunity. So when I started the
gateway to a lot ofdevelopments, and then also what
(18:18):
I started as qualitativeresearch was very much accepted,
because you cannot work withstatistics. It doesn't mean the
statistics do not show what wasthe real reason why the Jews
came to Latin America and toUruguay. And then then we I had
(18:39):
the opportunity two years ago togo to the University of Florida,
who was doing an exhibition ofthe publication, publications of
the Jewish communities, all overLatin America. We found all
kinds of books in Hebrew, inEnglish, of all kinds of
(19:00):
ideologies, within Judaism, likethose that are not religious,
that those are very, veryreligious. So, what is important
as you ask is to see thisdiversity, and not to stereotype
a Jewish community as ahomogeneous, collective, because
they aren't. So every-- allthese is a lot in terms that if
(19:25):
my first book about this subjectwas in 1986, all that has
happened in in the Uruguayansociety since 1986 to the
present there has to do withthis new way of moving thoughts
(19:46):
and moving the socialconstructions to, to... from
homogeneity, to diversity, andindirectly to lower social
prejudice.
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperling (20:01):
I think what's interesting for me
is I've tried to do more tolearn about the histories of my
family. And I think what I'vealso learned is just a lot of...
a lot of people in my familystill carry a lot of trauma from
growing up at a time where, youknow, it will and this may lead
into the next question of justthe focus was, for example, my
mom's generation of trying tojust be as American as possible,
(20:23):
trying to be as much in the U.S.
as possible, to assimilate asmuch as possible because of past
antisemitism abroad. And thennew anti semitism, or maybe some
of the same in the U.S. At thesame time, the moment that I
would ask the question to familyof like, can you tell me the
story, I would get the story.
But it was just an interestingthing of just sometimes asking
(20:45):
the question, because even withmy father, I asked about our
family's history, and he justsaid, "we never talked about it
growing up." And so it's justone of those things that, you
know, finding ways to access thestories is so important, because
we don't want to-- I don't wantthem to be lost. And I think
that's such a powerful thingthat you have done such work to
keep these stories alive forpeople in so many ways.
Teresa Porzecanski (21:06):
One consequence of this research and
this book, and all these changein the way of seeing the
Uruguayans seeing themselves upas diversity, as a diverse
society was at an elementaryschool, there was a new task
that was given to the childrenthat was a genealogic tree, no?
(21:32):
Do your genealogical tree. Notthe, not only the Jewish
schools, but all schools, itstarted to be important for the
teachers and for the personsthat you know that are
interested in origins andsources that the children could
know where do they come from,where they come from? Who was
(21:57):
your grandfather? He wasItalian. Where did he come from?
From this little town in Italy.
Okay, what language did hespeak? aAnd everything on that.
So I think the notion of beingforeign, it could be positive,
is positive, is positive, in theway that the children started to
(22:21):
learn that they weren't born in,like a plant. They are not
plants, they had their roots.
And the rotts was, well, thegrandfather and great grandfath-
fathers, and also including theJewish people. So every person
(22:43):
that's Jewish now, in your way,will tell you okay, my
grandfather came from me fromUkraine. Where in Ukraine? Well,
this little town, this schtetlin Ukraine, that doesn't exist
anymore. And so this is a kindof education that children in
all countries should have.
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperli (23:04):
Yeah, I mean, that is, that is not
part of, I know, a lot ofpeople's experiences actually
being asked to sort of really dothat building of your history at
such a young age, which I feellike can deeply shape you know,
how you also value yourself ifyou're able to learn more about
that. Moving on to the topic ofUruguay, I think, just in
(23:24):
learning more about you anddoing some research, you know, I
came across some differentwritings about just even how you
have uh taken time to sort oflook at Uruguay as sort of a
nation state, the politicalproject of constructing what is
Uruguayanness, what does it meanto be Urugyayan? And, and a lot
of times that what that does isit creates narratives and
(23:45):
stories, some that have truth,some that may be to push
political means or certaingoals. And I know that you've
done a lot of these studies isyou've named right through the
extent setting the experiencesof others groups and communities
that have been marginalized bythe state, whether that's women,
indigenous people, you've talkeda lot about Afr descendant
(24:06):
communities. So I'm justcurious, like, how does that
work you've done on sort ofstudying the kind of history
will require as a nation state,how is that related to or just
informed the study you've doneof Jewish diasporic communities?
Teresa Porzecanski (24:23):
Yeah, well, you started studying, studying,
researching minorities and youand you and researching the
whole society. Because forexample, if you compare your way
to, to Peru, or to Mexico, rightthe two big nations that I have
(24:43):
a lot of native, native citizenscoming from surviving cultures
after the conquest, but Uruguaydoesn't have that. Doesn't have
native. Yes Uruguay wanted eh,the Uruguayan society after the
end of the dictatorship. Theycreated m,yths, you know, they
(25:07):
wanted to be more Latin Americanbecause they were called like,
European, like a Europeancountry. They did-- you wouldn't
come, you wouldn't see anynatives. So where are the
natives? They have beenexterminated. They were very
few. So you're surprised by theemergence of this, like clubs or
(25:28):
ONGS that are revindicated,revindicate. Reclaiming, for,
for for the native identity. Weare descendants from the
Charruas, we are descendantsfrom the Guaranis. Actually, the
Guaranis, we're not completelyexterminated. And some of them
(25:49):
could live inside the Catholicsocieties. But they are not a
number that could change thisEuropean face of the Uruguayan
society. But where I thenstarted studying why the
Uruguayans needed myths, mythswith which be more like the the
(26:12):
nations in Latin America thatreally had really a great big
component of native cultureslike Mexico where they speak
more than 300 hundred dialects,Peru, Bolivia, even a part of
Brazil in the north. So Istarted to write a why the
(26:34):
Uruguayans wants wanted to bemore like the other nations of
Latin America. And that'sbecause they had a sense of
guilt. And there were then theartists were start, start to
write some dramas, some playsabout extermination, the last
(26:55):
one extermination of natives atSalsipuedes. Salsipuedes is a
place. They were trapped andexterminated by the descendants
of Spaniards. And when I wrotethis, I realized I was
researching like, like theconstructions that societies do
(27:17):
in order to solve eh, problemsof blame or guilty, or
insecurities. Okay, that changedthe whole Uruguayan mentality. I
wouldn't say that my writings,not only me, is what I work with
two great important historiansGerardo Caetano and Barrán. We
(27:43):
wrote three books about thesensibility. What are the
sensibilities? The way offeelings, the way the society
thinks about itself. Okay, so sothat was very important,
especially when the dictatorshipended. And there was a need of
(28:05):
reframe the national identity.
Who are we? So? Are we reallydemocratic? Are we really not
religious like atheism in thegovernment? Do we have beliefs?
What are those beliefs to? Do?
We wish that the native whatwould., wouldn't have been
(28:26):
exterminated? So, so all theseconstructions were a matter of
research. So understanding whatis Uruguay also gave me light
into why they should haveconstruct prejudice. And what
were the problems they have tobe part of this kind of
(28:49):
European, so different fromMiddle America from, from these
big countries with a lot ofnative population.
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperlin (29:00):
What I hear what I hear you're
talking about is this series ofdictatorships that happened in
Latin America in the 20thcentury in particular, right?
You know, Uruguay being one ofthose countries as well, too,
but just sort of like therebuilding moment of like, how
do we kind of recover? It soundslike also, there's these
questions of what is our kind oflike, collective guilt In some
(29:22):
ways? You know, what, whatquestions do we have to resolve?
And I think what you have namedto is like, what myths or
stories do we either have to notnecessarily recreate, but keep
reproducing, to make this nationstory a "reality." And I use
that with quotes just to saylike, as you've named, right,
like, every person's experienceis different based on who they
(29:44):
are. So that reality of beingUruguayan may feel much more
accessible or real to somepeople than others, depending on
what their experiences in acommunity but also as they're
treated by the state.
Teresa Porzecanski (29:57):
Yeah, I guess you just said it very
well, also, what is the mirrorin which you look, you're, you
look at yourself as a society.
Uruguayans have had, accordingto my point of view, had to
remake their own identity afterthe end of the dictatorship.
(30:20):
There are many things thathappened during the dictatorship
that showed the country the waythey were interpreting
themselves. So many peopledidn't want to recognize that
they collaborated with adictatorship. And not everybody
thought it, it was so bad,because before that, we had a
(30:44):
years of terrorism, years of howdo you say, disorder? Then
there's also, there was aresearch, not by me, but other
like reporters about how nothonest they were. So that now
everything is coming to light,because there was time enough
(31:06):
for the people to confess howthey worked, and where they get
the money, how they, what theydo with the stolen money, stolen
from the government, and stolenfrom the private sphere. And so
everything is coming to lightnow. It's not a beautiful
photograph, it's ugly. It'sugly.
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperlin (31:34):
When you say the mirror, I think it
makes me think that if you aregoing to look at the mirror, you
have to be ready to seeeverything. You can't just look
at some pieces and ignore therest. Working off of this sort
of discussion, I think I'mcurious in the work that you've
done and even understan, evenjust this, this different type
of analyses you put forwardaround the Uruguayan nation
(31:57):
state like where where do youunderstand as Jewish Uruguayans
kind of seeing themselves,right, and the different
understandings of race, ofgender, of class, of nationality
within Uruguay. Knowing that, ofcourse, like Jewish people, like
any community carry multipleidentities and different
experiences that we, as wediscussed, but I'm just curious,
(32:19):
like, you know, because I think,obviously, the U.S. is different
in many ways. But you know, wehave this very specific
understandings of race andgender. Like we've had a lot of
conversations in the US about,you know, are white Jewish
people white, things of thatnature. So I'm just curious,
like, in Uruguay, yeah, what,when it comes to these
conversations of how Jewishpeople see themselves within the
(32:39):
nation state, what does thatlook like? Or what are those
conversations'
Teresa Porzecanski (32:43):
There's a lot of assimilation, as the new
generations, there's a lot. Andalso, there's a lot of going
back to the rituals and becomingmore religious. That's the other
trend as the young people, like,trying to go back to the roots
(33:03):
of Judaism. Judaism has certainvalues and ways of thinking and
interpreting the world that thatcertain the new generation, some
of them, they don't want tolose, then it is easier to
adjust and to disappear. That'seasier, because then you don't
(33:25):
care about antisemitism, youdon't care about anything. But
the foundation of of Israel wasvery important for the Jewish
community in Uruguay. It was asmall community but many people
decided, well, I have tocollaborate with Israel. It's,
(33:46):
it's not any country. It's not acountry like all other
countries. It's a country thatfor many is a result of this
long, long, long waiting to comeback to coming back. For the
very religious is, is it's aprophecy that theJewish people
(34:07):
would go back to this place. Notto any place, to this place. And
so there was a lot of Alliyah,from the Jewish community, to
Israel, especially young people.
There were these Jewish youngeryouth organizations like,
Hashomer Hatzair, like Idema,like all kinds of youth
(34:31):
organizations that werepreparing to come to live in the
kibbutzim. There's going to bethis place where there is not
any antisemitism. So. so therewas a lot of Alliyah from the
Jewish so it was from 40,000people like in the middle of the
(34:52):
of the 50s or at 1950, 4, 40,000Jewish people. They descended to
12,000 because their elderswould stay. I don't say that
everyone in the Jewish communitycame to Israel. I'm saying that
(35:13):
they left for different places,mainly to Israel. But some of
them went to the U.S., some ofthem to Europe, some of them to
look for their roots in Germany,where they have been expelled in
Spain, where they have beenexpelled from, right? And so
(35:34):
that's, that's why Judaism is sointeresting historically.
Because there's a lot of thingsgoing on at the same time to to
build this kind of identity. Whoare we?
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperling (35:52):
You know, something I think I think
about two, which is something Ithink you talked about in your
answer is also like, where isour home? Yeah. You know, which
is an interesting question to, Ithink, for any Jewish person to
kind of ponder because, youknow, we have the power of
making any place our home, andwhat you also referencing is the
fact that there are lots ofpeople who, in the wake of the
(36:15):
end of World War II and otherthings, were trying to either
find new places whereantisemitism did not exist or
also rebuild other places aswell.
Teresa Porzecanski (36:25):
Yes, yeah.
Yes. So so it's looking for thepromised land. And this promised
land is in your mind, because inthe real world, it's not so easy
to find the promised land, butit's a nice idea for Judaism,
the looking for the promisedland. And this diaspora is, the
(36:48):
almost, is a way, a school wherewe all have learned during
millennials, a lot of things wehave learned a lot of things,
things all over the world, asall cultures, and then bringing
this back to this promised land.
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperling (37:14):
I know you've done a lot of
different kinds of work, thatyour your your academic work is
not strictly on anthropology,you've also been a writer of
novels and poetry. How was doingthat work formed everything else
that you've done?
Teresa Porzecanski (37:27):
Yeah, well, they both informing each other.
They just like academic work hasits rules, it's meth-
methodology. But at this otherway of interpreting reality is
fiction, it's fiction. Allfiction still has some touch
(37:49):
with real experiences, there isnot a fiction completely
divorced, by personalexperiences, even if those
experiences are not shownrealistically, in a work of art.
I've written about seven novels.
They all have a Jewishcharacter, or more than one. And
(38:11):
it's funny because that manywriters, many Jewish writers are
maybe afraid or shy to writewith about Jewish characters. In
being born in Uruguay or inLatin America. So of course, I
had this need to write storiesabout, that are connected to my
(38:39):
personal life, either mySephardic family on my mother's
side, or on my father's side,but so transformed that you
wouldn't recognize it. But ofcourse, then then there is this
relationship, or I feel there isthis relationship with these
(39:02):
characters that I, I've, I'vemet so well. So I um, what is
uh, rather is surprising for methat all the prizes I was
awarded in Uruguay they don'tever mention I am Jewish. He'll
say, Well, they say TeresaPorzecanski wrote this novel
(39:26):
that analyzed the text. Theyshould write, someone should
write that I'm really Jewish.
And because also the novel is aJewish novel. This is not any
novel. And this shows how Ithink they don't touch this
(39:46):
subject. It's a way of puttinginto a void the subject of my
Jewish identity, the fact thatled me to write about this
Jewish characters. It's not acoincidence. So I'm very
grateful for their words andeverything. But I would have
liked somebody to study thisrelationship between being
(40:10):
Jewish and going into specificsubjects.
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperlin (40:15):
What would you like in the audience
listening to this episode totake way from the conversation,
whether that's a particularpoint you've made a mark, just
something you want people toeven think about who are
Teresa Porzecanski (40:26):
Yeah, well, the obvious thing is that the
listening?
Jewish migration is not just anymigration. It was, it came to
Uruguay, because of specificreasons. They were refugees. The
government in those years, wouldforbid, some, some boats and
(40:49):
some people to get into Uruguaylike denying the visas, the
visas, for getting into Uruguay.
So, this shows how theUruguayana society wasn't
different of all societies withthis accumulation of prejudice.
And when what I would like tothe people to understand is that
(41:10):
social prejudicethis is aconstruction of stereotypes, a
simplification andgeneralization that no society
can afford to have to maintain.
Because it's dividing. It'sgoing against the community, and
(41:33):
it's dangerous. It's dangerous.
And I want to thank you. I willrecommend the Fulbright
Commission to go on awardingthese scholarships, I think they
are very useful. So thank you, alot. Jeremy,
Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperli (41:51):
Thank you so much, Teresa, for your
time today.
And that's all for this episodeof Fulbright forward. Thank you
so much for listening. For alist of resources mentioned in
today's episode, you can go tothe Fulbright Forward website
hosted on our Buzzsprout page.
Remember also, you can subscribeto Fullbright Forward through
your favorite podcast app likeApple podcasts or Spotify, as
well as follow the podcast andInstagram. Again I'm Jeremy
(42:13):
Gombin-Sperling FulbrightDiversity and Inclusion liaison
for programs in the WesternHemisphere. Be well stay safe,
and until next time,
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