November 1, 2024 • 60 mins
Welcome to Full Cow, a podcast about leather and kink where your host, Edge (he/him), shares his 30+ years of experience in the community. In this episode we look addiction.
You might want to check out Sober Leathermen (https://www.soberleathermen.org/) which can be a very handy resource.
Ask Edge! Go to https://www.speakpipe.com/LTHREDGE to leave ask a question or leave feedback. Find Edge's other content on Instagram and Twitter. Also visit his archive of educational videos, Tchick-Tchick.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Let's talk about addiction, that you are an adult
.
Welcome to Full Cow, a podcastabout leather, kink and BDSM.
(00:42):
My name is Edge my pronouns arehe, him and I am your host, and
in this episode we'll bedealing with the very serious
issue of addiction and itsrelation to leather and kink.
In the first segment, I'llshare with you some of my story
as a recovering addict, and thenin the second segment, I'll
offer you some resources in caseyou or someone you love might
(01:03):
have a problem with addiction.
Then we'll finish up with somequestions from Ask Edge and
highlight a new feature calledFan Mail.
This is a very challengingepisode for me to do because it
is more personal than I thinkany podcast episode I've done,
but I've done my best and Ithink it's a good episode.
(01:24):
So let's get started.
As I noted in the introductionto this episode, this is a very
challenging, very challengingsubject for me because it is so
personal.
You know, in general I'veexperienced a phenomenon lately
where I will meet new people,people and they know things
(01:47):
about me, and I'm always atfirst a little baffled until I
realize they've simply beenlistening to the podcast.
I often forget how much of mypersonal life I share here on
the podcast and it's fantastic.
I think that's the power ofthis podcast, of this.
(02:07):
What I do here is that I'm justanother person sharing my
experience and maybe you learnfrom it.
Maybe it's different from yoursand you're able to recognize a
diverse experience.
I don't know.
But I feel like simply sharinghas a power.
But at the same time, I have tooften wonder what the limits
(02:29):
are.
At what point do I share toomuch?
But this is a really importanttopic.
This is a life or death issue.
Let's not for any momentpretend that addiction does not
kill people, because it does,and I know a lot of people who
have died because of it.
I don't know a lot of leatherpeople, specifically, who have
(02:51):
died because of addiction, andso, even if I feel like I'm
putting myself out there alittle bit extra, I think it's
worth it.
You know, it's also weird for meto do this segment.
This is the segment where Ishare my experience.
I tell my story with thesubject, my story with bondage,
my story with boots, my storywith chastity.
But it's weird because in12-step programs and I do follow
(03:17):
a 12-step program prettycentral to 12-step programs is
sharing your story.
It's sort of how, on some levelit's part of how a 12-step
program works, and so I've donemeetings where I've shared my
story.
But this is a different kind ofsharing.
This is not a 12-step podcast.
Nor do I want to push 12-stepprograms as the solution.
(03:41):
It was the solution for me, itis a solution for some people,
but I don't want tooveremphasize it, and so I'm
both telling my story in a waythat's very familiar, that I've
done a lot, and in a way that iscompletely new and different
and makes me feel veryvulnerable.
So that's all the preface.
(04:04):
I grew up really, really, reallystraight-laced.
I was very much agoody-two-shoes kind of person
and didn't drink until,essentially, college.
I grew up in New Orleans it isa drinking city and a lot of my
peers in high school weredrinking in high school.
I did not.
What I discovered is that I wasnot a very good drinker.
(04:28):
What would happen is I woulddrink right and I'd get a buzz
and I'd be like, wow, this feelsreally good, I'm going to drink
more because I want to feelmore of this, not realizing I
already had enough alcohol in mysystem to increase the buzz.
So I was drinking more and thenI would get too drunk and then
(04:48):
I would get sick and then Iwould have the worst hangovers.
And as this is happening in myearly college years, that is
also my early leather years.
Those were the same time.
So I was experimenting withdrinking as I was learning about
leather and I was learning Iwas not a very good drinker and
I would not be a successfulalcoholic.
(05:08):
I have the worst hangovers.
So eventually and I was prettyhard-headed but eventually I
learned how to moderate mydrinking.
But from the start of my leatherjourney if you've listened to
the first episode, you knowabout Mark and Wally, my gay
leather parents From thebeginning of that journey there
were drugs and you know Mark andWally would have parties at
(05:33):
their place and sometimes therewas LSD and sometimes there was
coke or meth.
I mean, I had a sampling ofevery gay drug available in the
late 1900s and none of themreally were.
None of them stuck is what Iwould say.
I'm like, oh, that'sinteresting.
(05:54):
Okay, that was interesting, butI didn't experience any
problems.
And so, although I was exposedto drugs pretty early on, I was
not immersed in drugs in theearly part of my leather journey
and spent quite a, you know,like years, a decade or more,
sort of not using drugs andbeing a leather person, and in
(06:15):
that I'm really blessed, like Iknow some people whose entry
into leather and kink was drugsand I'll talk about that a
little bit later, I think.
But I was pretty blessed tohave an established leather
track record withoutintoxication, and eventually I
did learn I mean eventually Ibecame a really smart drinker.
(06:39):
I did not over drink.
When I went out, I would have asingle whiskey with my cigar, I
would sip it all night and thenI would go home.
I learned the hard way, whichis not to say that I was a
normal drinker overall.
That's not part of this story.
What happened was, interestingly, right around the time I was
becoming Leather Edge.
There was this real desire forintensity and darkness and
(07:05):
dirtiness and this sort of more.
I don't even know how toexplain it, but I just wanted to
be bad.
I wanted to be bad, I wanted toexperience dark things, and
dark is such a loaded term inthis community and when people
tell me they're into dark stuff,I'm like, okay, well, that's
(07:26):
really code for three or fourdifferent scenes that are really
dangerous in different ways,and it's got to be one of these.
But I was really longing fordark stuff and as part of that I
started doing crystal meth alittle bit more.
And you know, this is theinsidious part of it Like I did
(07:51):
it and I was like, oh, that wasgood.
And then I would do it sixmonths later.
I'm like, oh, that was good.
And then what started out asonce a year became twice a year,
became four times a year,became once a month, became,
became, became.
My usage slowly increased andas, uh, my drug use was
increasing in some significantsense, my leatherness was
decreasing.
So what would happen is, youknow, I didn't really know
(08:13):
anyone in the leather communityusing drugs, but like there was
this sort of middle zone betweenthe vanilla gaze and the kinky
gaze, there were those peoplewho were curious and what I
ended up doing was trading myexperience with leather and my
gear and and my skillset fordrugs.
Essentially, I was giving peopleleather experiences and they
(08:35):
were giving me drugs, and I waskind of fortunate in that.
You know my head, my use, myheavy using period, like the
scope of my addiction wasprobably five years, probably
started around 2000.
And it was.
You know, I was hitting bottomin 2005.
And in that time I never becamea daily user.
(08:56):
I was very fortunate in thatand I was very fortunate in that
I had a couple of regular playpartners who I did almost all my
drug use with.
So I was really blessed in thatI was able to sort of have a
relatively non-crazy,non-chaotic drug run in my
(09:18):
addiction.
And all that time I wasbecoming less and less of the
leather person I wanted to beand I was aware of that.
I was aware of that.
I was aware of the drugs wereascendant and my actual kink was
descendant, because I wouldjust get really high and then
you can't really do anythingkinky not the kink I was used to
(09:40):
doing.
You can't really do the kinkI'm used to doing if you're
really high.
And so I think I was reallyusing people.
I was using people to get drugsperiod End of story.
And it got to a point so Imoved to Florida in 2005, and it
(10:01):
got to a point where I had areally bad experience and put my
life at risk.
I'm not going to say severerisk, it was at risk Like, okay,
I got a problem, I have aproblem.
And that began this turningpoint for me.
I already knew I had a problem.
I already knew something waswrong because for a long time I
(10:26):
was trying to not do crystalmeth.
I would be like I'm not going todo it this weekend and I would
put in place all these crazysafeguards to keep me from doing
it.
And every, every, every, everysingle time I was doing it.
I now think this is part of theessence of addiction, and if
(10:46):
you've suffered from addiction,you know what I'm talking about.
If you've not suffered fromaddiction, it's going to sound
crazy, but what it's like is youwant, with every ounce of your
being, to not do something youdon't want to do meth, you don't
want to drink, you don't wantto spend, you don't want to
gamble, you don't want to actout sexually compulsively.
(11:10):
You don't want to do it withevery ounce of your will, every
fiber of your being, and yet youcan't stop yourself from doing
it.
And it is baffling, and it isdeeply demoralizing to realize
how little control you have overyour own actions, to have your
(11:33):
mind betray you.
That was my experience ofaddiction.
I found recovery through a12-step program and as part of
that I decided if I was going tobe free of addiction I had to
put everything on the table, andthat meant I didn't know if I'd
keep my relationship and Ididn't know if I'd be able to
(11:56):
keep my leather life, because Ididn't know what it would take
for me to not use drugs again.
And so I spent about a yearputting leather on the shelf is
the way I put it.
I didn't go out, I didn'treally have scenes, I wasn't
playing with people, I was justfocused on getting well and
getting better.
About a year maybe it was ninemonths, but it was a healthy
(12:19):
length of time and for me it wasreally about consolidating a
sort of sober life before evencontemplating what else my life
could be.
And then I eased my way backinto leather, and I did it,
bringing with me this sort ofspiritual sense that I had
(12:40):
developed in my recovery.
If you know 12-step programs,spirituality it's essentially
about spirituality, and I wasable to bring that with me, I
was able to ask.
I brought my spirituality intothe playroom, into the bar, into
the sex party.
I brought that with meeverywhere and that was a really
remarkable gift, because whathappened was I was able to
(13:04):
connect back to my leather self,probably better, probably
deeper than before.
I even started using and that'spretty remarkable Excuse the
throat clearing.
And so I went on with myleather life as a sober person.
(13:24):
And then, you know, after myhusband died that was in 2015, I
returned to some fetishes ofmine that necessitated some
substances.
It wasn't crystal meth, it wassome other stuff and that
happened.
Oh God, that would have beenstarting in 2016.
(13:44):
Right, so I got sober wouldhave been starting in 2016.
So I got sober, by the way, in2006.
And I've not used crystal methsince 2006.
That's 18 years.
But starting in late 2016, Istarted slowly doing other
things in the context of a kinkscene, in the context of a
fetish with someone local, andit involved GHB.
(14:08):
And then, eventually, itinvolved ketamine as well and
those substances.
I sort of justified it.
Like you know, this is my kink,this is a fetish, I'm not using
it like drugs, and they didn'tcause the same amount of misery
or chaos that crystal methcaused in my life.
But for a long time I knew thatwasn't right.
(14:31):
I knew it wasn't consistentwith what I thought my sobriety
should be.
I knew I wasn't being honestwith people in my life, and then
that lasted until the end of2021.
And I was going through abreakup and as a result of that
(15:00):
without going into too muchdetails and not bringing, not
telling other people's storiesas a result of that I realized
that I had not been honest and Ineeded to start over.
So, as of January 1st 2022, Iwas like, hey, I'm starting over
.
And even though I had all thistime clean off of crystal meth,
I started from day one.
And so right now, it is October28th in 2024, so I have two
(15:25):
years, nine months and 28 dayssober of all mind-altering
substances.
As we say, this has been areally beautiful journey for me.
For me personally, that I'vebeen able to become a better
person and therefore also abetter leather person.
(15:45):
I've been able to become morewhole and integrated.
I compartmentalize things less,including I used to
compartmentalize my leather lifeand now I feel like I'm really
whole and complete andintegrated.
And all of this is the gift ofwork, the gift I've done from
the work of overcoming myaddiction, and it's a really,
(16:09):
really blessed life.
In the past few years I've alsostarted another 12-step program.
It is a companion program tosome of the larger 12-step
programs and it's really focusedmore on relationships.
And yeah, this is just a littletricky because in 12-step
programs we're not reallysupposed to talk about what
(16:30):
12-step programs we're in,because then you will identify
the 12-step program with me andif I mess up, you think it's a
problem with the 12-step program.
It's a whole complicated thing.
We have what's called atradition around anonymity in
media.
So let's just say that I'vecontinued my 12-step journey.
I'm now in two 12-step programsthat are different, but both
(16:53):
complementary, and one is forpeople who have a problem with
addiction and the other is forpeople who love people who have
a problem with addiction, andboth of them have enhanced my
life quite a bit.
I'd be happy I have no problem.
If people really want to knowmore about the specifics of my
experience in 12-step recovery,I am more than happy to discuss
(17:13):
that one-on-one or if you sendme emails.
But in terms of this as apodcast, I really just want to
focus on the larger story andhere's the larger story podcast.
I really just want to focus onthe larger story and here's the
larger story.
I started playing with drugs.
I discovered I was an addict.
Now, drugs didn't make me anaddict From my perspective.
(17:39):
I was an addict all along.
I was just waiting for theright drug to activate it.
So I don't want to rail againstdrugs.
I don't have any problem withanyone who does drugs Alecans
drugs.
I don't have any problem withanyone who does drugs.
I can't do them.
It is like an allergy.
Right, you can eat peanutsGreat, eat all the peanuts you
want, but if I eat peanuts I'mgoing to die.
It's a little bit like that.
So I was in leather.
I started playing with drugs.
(18:00):
I discovered I was an addict.
I had to get help.
I had to get help.
I was able to get help.
I was able to put down thedrugs and I was able to
disentangle them from my leatherlife and return a better, more
complete, more whole leatherperson.
That's where I'm going to leavethe story for now.
(18:24):
I think in the next segment I'llbe able to reveal a little bit
more as we talk about some ofthe resources available and
honestly, I really wish I couldbe more specific and go into
more details, because I thinkthere's a lot for me to share
there, but I'm really trying tobe mindful of you, the listener,
(18:45):
and what your experience mightbe and what your solution might
be to addiction, which could bevery different from mine.
I'm trying to remain focused onthe fact that this is a podcast
about kink and not aboutaddiction, and I'm trying to be
respectful of the traditions ofthe programs I follow for my
recovery Complicated stuffprograms I follow for my
(19:07):
recovery Complicated stuff.
So if you'd like to know more,reach out to me, and I will also
include some links to resourcesfor sober or recovering leather
kinky people in the show notesand I hope that will do.
And that's it for this segment,but we're going to continue on
and think some more aboutresources available to everyone.
(19:29):
Thank you for your attention.
Part of the challenge of thissegment is that I'm speaking to
two audiences of you out there.
The first audience consists ofpeople who wonder if they have a
problem, and the second ispeople who love someone who they
(19:52):
think may have a problem.
Those are two very differentpopulations, so let me start
with my understanding ofaddiction.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
And I want to make clear that we are talking about
addiction very broadly.
Speaker 1 (20:05):
That includes drugs, alcohol, spending, sex, love
relationships, gambling, onlineporn, and the list goes on and
on.
In my experience and I'm notspeaking as any sort of health
professional, I'm speaking of methe defining characteristic I
have found in my experience ofaddiction is that it is
(20:27):
obsessive and compulsive, whichmeans when I wasn't using meth,
I was thinking about using meth,and then, when I was near it, I
would use it, whether or not Iwanted to.
That was the compulsion, and Ifind that crops up in other
areas of my life.
I have a fairly ongoingchallenging relationship with
(20:49):
sweets late at night, and therehave been, in the course of, say
, the last decade, many nightswhere I have found myself
driving to get cookies, eventhough I hated it and didn't
want to cookies, even though Ihated it and didn't want to, but
I could not stop.
That's the compulsion.
I have found myself thinkingabout desserts starting early in
(21:14):
the evening.
That's the obsession.
So my first piece of advice toyou is if there's an issue in
your life that you feel you bothobsess and compulse around,
that's something to payattention to.
The challenge with a diseaselike addiction and as far as I'm
concerned.
It is a disease.
I feel it's a brain disorder.
I feel there's something wrongwith the wiring of my neurons.
(21:35):
I don't think it's a moralfailing.
I don't think it's anythingelse but a disease like other
kinds of diseases, other mentalhealth issues, like depression.
I also think depression isn'tjust you're feeling down.
It means your neurochemicalsare out of whack.
So in my experience, addictionis a disease.
But what's challenging is oneof the symptoms from my
(21:55):
experience of the disease ofaddiction is you tell yourself
you're not an addict.
And that's complicated becausethey're like how do you know?
Critically, no one can tell youthat you're an addict.
You have to decide that foryourself.
Now, if you're here andlistening because you love
(22:15):
someone who you think has aproblem, that's going to be a
challenge for you, because theyneed to understand they have a
problem.
You may see the problem, youmay see it very clearly, you may
love them and want to solvethat problem for them, but you
cannot.
(22:36):
The only way any of us canbegin to defeat the disease of
addiction is by understandingfor ourselves that we have the
disease of addiction, and thatcomes in lots of ways.
You know.
Often there's a moment wherewell, you know, my experience is
, I knew it for a long time.
(22:56):
There was actually a time whereI was like, oh, I'm an addict
and that means I should use,because that's what addicts do,
right.
So I was using the disease tojustify and fuel more using.
I knew it for a while, butthere came a moment, this moment
of light, clarity, this momentof honesty, when I really
understood I had a problem.
(23:18):
And that's critical alsobecause for a long time I
thought crystal meth was theproblem.
I thought I had gotten addictedto crystal meth and what I
realized is that I was theproblem I had the issue.
That shift from addicted tocrystal meth to being an addict
(23:38):
was big for me and significant,because before that time, if you
had asked me, it caused a wholereorganization of my sense of
self.
Before that time, if you'dasked me who I am, I'd be like
well, I'm a leather man.
That was pretty core to myidentity and my sense of self.
And then, after that moment,core to my identity and sense of
(23:59):
self is I'm an addict.
Because for me, I have to keepan eye on it.
I have to put it central so Ican keep an eye on it, because
if I forget it, I've got thisweird mental quirky disease that
does things like forget I havea problem.
Tell me I don't have a problem.
Tell me it's okay.
If I do it one more time, tellme it's going to be different
this time, all that.
(24:21):
So if you're wondering, youhave a problem.
The other thing you might lookfor is the amount of
unmanageability that this issuecauses in your life.
Going out and eating cookies at10 o'clock at night causes some
unmanageability in my life, inthat I then have to exercise
more to offset the increase incalories I'm taking.
(24:44):
I have to work harder at thegym to make up for what I've
done.
That's a little bit ofunmanageability.
With crystal meth, it was amuch higher degree of
unmanageability as you mightimagine.
So you might want to look andsee how manageable is your life.
How much chaos is there?
How much out-of-control dramais there related to some of your
(25:08):
behaviors?
Gambling, sex, porn, onlineactivities, even kink itself, I
think, could probably be anaddictive behavior, and isn't
that kind of a scary thing tothink about?
So if you're wondering if youhave an addiction, kind of a
scary thing to think about.
So if you're wondering if youhave an addiction.
I would ask you to pay attentionto whether or not you can stop
at will, because for me Icouldn't.
(25:29):
That was the compulsion,whether or not you think about
it when you're not doing it.
For me that was the obsession,whether or not the behavior
causes problems in your lifeLike, what are the problems and
how are they related to thebehavior?
And then also, do you keeptelling yourself you don't have
a problem?
(25:49):
Because you know what my senseis?
Normal people don't spend themental energy to tell themselves
they don't have a problembecause they don't have a
problem.
It's only when you have aproblem you start trying to
convince yourself that you don'thave a problem.
Only when you have a problemyou start trying to convince
yourself that you don't have aproblem.
So those are my hints and tipsto you.
If you're considering whether ornot you might have an issue,
and if you love someone who youthink has an issue, there's a
(26:11):
whole program for you and I hopeyou find it because it offers a
lot of comfort and it is acompanion program to Alcoholics
Anonymous.
It's called Al-Anon, I think Ican say that, and so respect
their traditions and it's worthchecking out.
So the first step to dealingwith addiction is definitely to
(26:33):
figure out whether or not youhave addiction, and that's a
step only you can take.
In terms of its relationship tokink, here are some things to
keep in mind.
First of all, I do think for awhile I mean for a while, for a
couple of decades now I havefelt that meth was an epidemic
(26:54):
in the leather community and forme it was the second deadly
pandemic raging against us AfterHIV that wiped out a large
chunk of a generation.
Now there's the problem of meth, but also opiate addiction and
the rise of fentanyl.
So certainly locally here inFort Lauderdale there's a lot,
(27:18):
lot, lot of drug use.
But I do think broadly it isinfiltrated in many areas of the
leather community and that'scomplicated if we think about
why, and I don't want to explorethat too much.
But what I do want to say isthat at its core, at its core,
(27:41):
the leather community isvehemently anti-intoxication.
At its core, the leathercommunity is vehemently
anti-intoxication.
You know, someone onceexplained to me the simplest
form of addiction and recovery.
They said isolation is thedisease and connection is the
(28:07):
cure.
And I know that was true For me.
I ended up alone when using allthe time.
Even if I started with someone,I ended up alone.
I ended up isolated.
Isolation was a manifestationof my disease.
There was a time when I wasreally kind of manifesting my
addiction in sexual behaviorsand I would spend hours alone.
(28:28):
I would always end updisconnected.
That was the manifestation ofmy disease and the way I've
learned to recover is throughconnection.
The reason I'm sharing that isbecause I also have a friend on
Facebook who constantly postsphotos of guys in leather and
he'll say leather is aboutconnection.
So the core of the leathercommunity is about connecting.
(28:51):
Kink when we do it is aboutconnection.
It is about pleasure, but it'sabout intimacy.
It is about being with someone.
I do not do kink to you.
I don't flog you, right?
I mean I do flog you, but Idon't do things to you.
We do things together.
For me, connection is thecenter of what we do in kink,
(29:13):
and addiction destroysconnection.
Addiction is about isolation,so that both means that we are
seeing this pandemic ofaddiction ravaging the leather
and king communities, but at itscore, because we are a
community that is so deeplyinvested in connection.
That means if you find the coreof the community, you will find
(29:35):
that it is anti-intoxicationand there are good reasons for
that, beyond the kind ofemphasis on intimacy, if you
think about the sort of code weuse.
We use safe, sane, consensual.
We use risk-aware kink.
That's even probably morepopular now.
But, let's go back to theclassic safe, sane, consensual.
(29:57):
If one or both parties areunder the influence of drugs or
alcohol, then your judgment isimpaired, consent is impaired,
safety is impaired, sanity isimpaired.
Right, it is hard to be safe,sane and consensual and practice
kink when one or both partiesare impaired, as kink when one
(30:27):
or both parties are impaired.
So that's another reason whybeing leather and being deeply
addicted are not necessarilycompatible.
Now I don't want to suggestthat you must only ever play
sober.
I think there are certainlyways to do harm reduction and to
incorporate drugs into scenes.
I can't do it because Iessentially have an allergy of
(30:48):
body and mind and I will end updead.
Let's not get into that, butthat's what will happen.
But I think other people canuse substances responsibly and a
lot of that is that notion ofresponsibly.
I have a friend who does drugsbut he does a prescribed dose.
He keeps track of when he doesit.
(31:09):
He knows how many hours to waitbefore he does another dose.
He doesn't accept drugs fromstrangers.
He tests his drugs for fentanyl.
He is practicing harm reduction.
If we reach deep in history, alot of these mind-altering
substances had ecstaticreligious possibilities in them.
(31:30):
I'm not talking about meth, butI'm talking about, in general,
mind-altering.
If we look at certain spiritualtraditions, mind-altering was
part of the ecstatic practiceand that also sometimes included
pain practices.
So I think there are ways toincorporate substances with
(31:50):
intent and with responsibilityinto kink.
So I don't want to say like, oh, if you use substances well,
then you're a bad leather person.
But I would hope that if youuse them well, then you're a bad
leather person.
But I would hope that if youuse them, you're having a
thorough discussion with yourpartner and that you're using
them responsibly.
That's the key responsibly.
(32:12):
For me, I could not use themresponsibly.
Perhaps that's true for you aswell, and if so, then you might
want to think about not justharm reduction strategies but
actual recovery strategies.
I've shared that.
For me, a 12-step program worked.
I know a lot of people asqueers.
(32:32):
We have been deeply, deeplywounded and damaged by organized
religion.
Period Period Not universallytrue, but broadly true that
queers have been deeply woundedby organized religion, and so
when you hear about a programthat has the word God in it, we
(32:52):
are not really running towardsthat.
It's not like our first choiceright.
12 Step was not my first choice.
Therapy was my first choice.
Therapy was the first thing Itried.
That didn't.
I tried everything I knew totry before I got to 12-step.
So if you're not ready for12-step or if you don't think
it's going to work for you,there are other options.
(33:13):
I think the key is myexperience is addiction is not
something you can overcome byyourself.
It was not something I canovercome by yourself.
It was not something I couldovercome by myself.
I had to ask for help and theway that manifested for me is in
a 12-step program, but it maymanifest different ways for you,
but I know of only three peoplein the whole of my life and
(33:38):
existence who've been able towalk away from meth specifically
just out of willpower, and Idon't know how they did that,
but I know three people who did.
Everyone else I know had somesort of help.
That doesn't mean 12-stepprogram.
In particular, you might trysomething like CBT no, no, no,
not the kind of CBT we like, Imean cognitive behavioral
(34:01):
therapy and that can help youidentify and change harmful
patterns of thinking andbehavior that are related to
your addictive behavior.
There's also a whole otherprogram called Smart Recovery,
and this is really based.
I think it's actually based inCBT, but it's about
self-empowerment, self-reliance,behavioral change through
practical techniques, and thatis available both in person and
online.
Think it's actually based inCBT, but it's about
(34:21):
self-empowerment, self-reliance,behavioral change through
practical techniques, and thatis available both in person and
online.
And if you're really resistantto these notions of spirituality
that come with 12-step programs, it might be a good option for
you to explore.
In addition to the harmreduction approaches we've
already talked about, you mightalso think about mindfulness and
(34:42):
meditation-based programs.
If you think about somethinglike refuge recovery, it's
12-steppy broadly, but it'sreally Buddhist and it's a
Buddhist-inspired path torecovery that focuses on
mindfulness, self-compassion andemotional regulation.
So if Buddhism resonates foryou, there's both refuge,
(35:06):
recovery and recovery dharma,which also uses Buddhist
principles.
If you're a little satanic,there is a group called the
Sober Faction which is part ofthe Church of Satan.
I think it's Church of Satan,right?
C-o-s Church of Satan.
That is a sort of satanicapproach to recovery and satanic
(35:26):
in the sort of non-theisticsense, or is it theistic?
It's a group that really isabout empowering yourself, right
.
So that might be worthexploring.
There are different therapyoptions.
You might want to, inparticular, look for a
kink-aware professional, andthere are online recovery
(35:49):
communities, including Reddit'sStop Drinking community and apps
like Tempest that offer digitalcourses and community support.
There's a lot of peer supportin the community for people who
are trying to avoid addictivebehaviors and I'll provide some
(36:10):
of those resources in the shownotes.
But also consider things likefitness and wellness programs.
Some people find recoverythrough exercise and physical
health and things like yoga,strength training, martial arts,
because they can help managecravings and stress and they can
provide an alternativecommunity outside of your usual
(36:31):
party scene.
And then if you also integratethat wellness into your leather
and kink lifestyle, then you'recreating opportunities to really
come back into control andredefine power and control and
discipline in healthier and moremindful ways.
Some people, I think, have alsoexplored holistic and
alternative therapies to dealwith addiction.
That includes acupuncture,equine therapy, art therapy that
(36:56):
really offer healing throughless traditional means and that
might appeal to you if you'renot really into talk therapy.
Like many of the other aspectsof these programs, they can
really address emotional,spiritual, physical aspects of
your addiction that help youmove towards recovery.
There's alsomedication-assisted treatment.
(37:19):
This is especially important, Ithink, if your issue is opiates
.
So if you're thinking aboutsomething like Suboxone or
methadone that can be used inconjunction with counseling or
therapy to help managewithdrawal and cravings, and I
think what you'll find is thatany kink event probably has some
(37:39):
sort of recovery space.
There are actual 12-stepmeetings at all the major events
, but what's nice is they'rekind of super generic 12-step
meetings.
I've gone to these and you canjust show up and not really be a
12-step person but be in a roomof people who are kinky and
don't use substances andunderstand the powerlessness of
(38:04):
being forced to do somethingagainst your will because your
mind is acting against yourwishes.
So there are a number ofresources.
Let's also keep in mind there'sa whole atheist version of
12-step program.
So if you're averse to 12-stepif you tried it, it didn't work
for you if you just can't standthe notion of spirit or God,
(38:27):
great, there's still a lot ofoptions available to you if you
ask for help.
And I think the other thing isany day I don't use is a victory
right.
So if you can just make itthrough today without whatever
your behavior is, withoutlooking at porn, without binge
eating, without spending andgetting the high, without
(38:51):
shoplifting, whatever that isthat is your compulsive,
addictive behavior.
If you can spend one day notdoing it, that's a victory.
But that also means that if youtry a program, 12-step
cognitive behavioral therapy,smart recovery, whatever it is
if you try it it doesn't work,keep trying it or try another
(39:11):
one, or try two at the same time.
That what I've been taught andwhat I really believe is that
addiction is a progressive andfatal disease, and so I know
that for me this is my personaltruth that if I start using
again, I will keep using moreand more and eventually I will
(39:33):
die.
It is a fatal disease and Idon't think you have to look
very far around us to realizethat notion of fatality.
I know more than one.
That's silly.
I know a lot, not quite that.
I know a number of leatherkinky people who have died from
(39:55):
addiction, and that's a loss forthe community.
That's the epidemic that rages.
It's also very complicated Onceyou do get recovered, once you
do move out of the addictiveactions.
It's really complicated torecover your leather and kinky
self.
You know I shared earlier thatI was really lucky that I had a
(40:19):
leather life before my addictionreally took off and so
therefore I had a place to goback to.
I understood what kink waswithout drugs or alcohol, but
for many people and this is whatI've learned from my experience
and hearing people's storiestheir entry into leather was
(40:42):
with drugs or alcohol orwhatever substances, because
there was so much shame, therewas so much guilt, there was so
much fear around wanting todrink piss or wanting to get
beaten or wanting to get fuckedby 30 guys that the drugs gave
them a way to do it.
Their challenge, once they walkaway, once they're freed from
(41:09):
the addictive behavior, isdisentangling kink from that
behavior, because a lot of timesthey become so deeply linked in
the brain that it can take along time to pry those two
things apart and understand thekink behavior without the
substances.
I have a number of friendswho've done this journey with
(41:32):
fisting, where they first gotfisted with drugs which can
obviously provide a lot of help,a lot of support if you're
dealing with a fist in your assand then they had a life where
their fisting was always on somesort of substance and then,
once they left the addictivebehavior and the substances
(41:53):
behind it was like, okay, how doI go back to fisting?
But they did.
Here's the news I have for youthat if your entry into leather
was all jumbled up, or if yourleather kink life now is all
jumbled up with some sort ofaddictive behavior, it is
possible to disentangle them.
(42:14):
It is possible to return to thethings that gave you pleasure
without addictive behaviors.
That's a longer journey forsome than others and it may
require a lot of time, a lot ofwork, a lot of therapy and a lot
of support.
But it is possible.
(42:35):
I know it from my journey and Ihave seen it in several,
several, several, several,several of my peers and friends
who were able to eventuallyexperience leather and kink
without their addictivebehaviors.
So I want you to know it'spossible.
So the messages I would likeyou to take away from this
(42:59):
segment First of all, if youlove someone and you think they
have a problem, look intoAl-Anon.
I would love to sugarcoat it andjust say there's a companion
program, blah, blah, blah.
But I just need to be clear.
Look into Al-Anon, itrepresents its own.
Maybe I should do a wholeseparate program sometime on
that, but it has its ownchallenges.
(43:19):
Maybe I should do a wholeseparate program sometime on
that, but it has its ownchallenges.
But it is an incredible,incredible wealth of wisdom,
experience and hope.
If you love someone who youthink has a problem, if you
think you may have a problem,hopefully I've offered some tips
from my experience of how Ifigured out I had a problem and
hopefully, if you do have aproblem, you come to understand
(43:43):
that you do have a problem.
I hope that you take away fromthis segment that at its core,
because leather is aboutconnection.
Leather is anti-intoxication.
That saying that is not a wayof vilifying people or excluding
people who use substances intheir play, but asking them to
(44:05):
do it as safely, sanely andconsensually as possible, to
talk about risk and to practicegood harm reduction If you do
discover you have a problem.
12-step was my solution.
It is not the only solution.
There are a range of therapysolutions and group-based
solutions, but from myexperience, what's critical is
getting some help and there area lot of different kinds of help
(44:27):
out there and whether drugscame into your leather life that
you had before the addictivebehavior, or whether those
addictive substances eased yourentry and erased your shame
around your kinked desires,there will come a day when
(44:47):
you're able to disentangle,separate the two of them and
come back to leather as theperson you want to be, as the
person that you are alreadysomewhere deep inside.
I know that this, you know I.
Often I also feel like thisisn't the super best segment,
(45:09):
because I'm both trying toaddress broad issues like
addiction, but in a leathercontext, and there's probably a
lot more I can say, but I amwalking complicated lines of
traditions and personalboundaries and sharing
experience and all that.
I hope that you've gottensomething useful out of this
(45:30):
segment and certainly, if youneed some help, feel free to
reach out to me.
Thank you, welcome to Ask Edge,the segment where I answer
questions from all of you, nowwith fan mail.
So my podcast is hosted througha company called Buzzsprout and
(45:51):
they have a new feature calledfan mail.
You will find it in the shownotes of every episode.
At the top it says send a textand literally you're able to
text me a little note.
It shows up on my Buzzsproutpage and so I will be sharing a
couple of fan mails I'vereceived, as well as Ask Edge,
(46:11):
the segment where I answerquestions from all of you.
Please feel free to submit yourquestions.
Either leave me a voicemail atspeakpipecom slash leatheredge
L-T-H-R-E-D-G-E that is,speakpipecom slash leatheredge
or send me an email at ask atfullcowshow, and both of those
(46:33):
links are also available in theshow notes.
In the show notes.
So the first piece of fan mail Ireceived is from Glasgow.
It's from James in Glasgow andhe says Hi there and hello from
Glasgow.
I'm so pleased you had a greatvisit to Scotland.
Your podcast perfectly capturesso many of the typical things
(46:55):
about our country, especiallythe iron brew and the empire
biscuits.
I love that you're planningfurther trips to Europe.
If you ever travel to Berlin,give me a shout.
I'm a regular visitor there soI can offer some tips about
places to visit eating, drinkingand the leather scene.
Thanks again for your wonderfulshow, james in Glasgow, berlin.
(47:16):
Yes, you know, you would thinkI've been.
People tend to think that I'vebeen to Berlin any number of
times, but the truth is I'venever been and it's on my list.
It is on my list.
I don't know when I'm going toget there.
I will say I'm not reallyinterested in going to Folsom
and I'm not really interested ingoing to Easter.
In part that's becausesometimes the weather
(47:41):
particularly with Folsom, I'veheard the weather can be a
little not conducive to leather.
More than anything it's because, well, it's two reasons I want
to be the new meat in town and Idon't want to have to compete
with thousands of leathermenfrom all over the world.
Not the best reason, but it'strue and I'm going to say it.
The second thing is I want tobe able to see the city of
(48:02):
Berlin and not feel like I'mmissing out on some event.
So my plan is to head to Berlinat some point and make sure I
hit a black weekend, which Iunderstand is a great weekend,
but it's a little lessoverwhelming than some of the
larger events.
I will be sure to keep peopleposted should I make it to
(48:23):
Berlin for a Black Weekend.
My second fan mail comes fromAustralia.
Hello to you, edge.
I wanted to say thank you fordoing this podcast.
As someone who is completely atodds and confused and denial of
my leather journey, your wordsare of a great support and
appreciate you, ash, australia,thank you.
(48:43):
Thank you, ash.
You know I also just recentlygot a nice message on Instagram
I hope you know who I'm talkingabout but thank you again.
These little messages that tellme this podcast means something
.
This resonated for you.
The podcast, this episode,meant something to you.
(49:05):
You learned something here.
This helped you there.
These are pretty critical to mebecause I will admit I am
dragging man.
I am dragging with the podcastand not to get too deeply into
it, but I've been single for awhile now and I find that that's
dragging my overall energylevels down and the podcast has
(49:29):
been feeling like a little bitof a chore.
Fortunately, I'm nearing theend of this season and I get my
hiatus, which hopefully I willuse to recharge, and I have
started planning season four.
I'm not going to commit to it,but I have started planning.
I have a good sense.
I'll tell you.
I'll wait until the seasonfinale to tell you what I'm
planning for season four.
(49:49):
I think it's going to be goodand I can't promise you, I'm
going to do it, but the goodnews is I'm thinking about a
season four.
The only thing, the only reasonI keep doing this.
This really became a lot ofwork at some point, but I get
these messages from people andI'm just like blown away that I
am able to touch people's livesin any way whatsoever.
(50:13):
Podcast has become important topeople and therefore I keep
doing it because for all of you,like, I'm not doing this for me
.
I was never really doing thisfor me.
I started the podcast really tofill time after a breakup and to
have something to talk aboutwhen I was dating, like, oh yeah
, I'm starting a podcast.
Really, tell me about yourpodcast.
And it's become something thatI do for all of you because it's
(50:38):
important.
And I only know it's importantbecause you send me these little
messages that tell me it'simportant.
So, ash, thank you.
You've moved this entirepodcast closer to a season four
simply by taking the time tosend me a text to fan mail.
I love that.
It's texting, that's prettycool.
So that's all the fan mail thistime.
(50:58):
Perhaps we will have some morein the future.
And we have two questions.
The first is from Matty.
Speaker 2 (51:06):
Hello, edge Matty here, 29.
He him Live in the UK.
Leather lad Originally fromIreland.
Lad originally from Ireland,long time fan of the podcast.
It's been an integral part ofmy journey into leather and kink
(51:27):
.
I guess my question for youwould be what was your first
session or scene in leather orkink or BDSM and, if you've
already answered that one on thepodcast or on another question,
what's been your favouritescene that you've ever done in
Leather and Kink?
(51:47):
I think my first experience ofLeather and Kink was in a gay
campsite and I cruised this guyin leather.
He kind of walked into thedarkroom and I immediately
noticed that he was wearingleather boots, leather shorts, a
leather vest and I thought,damn, I want to play with that
(52:10):
guy.
So I took him back to histrailer and that's what we did
and from there it's been a bitof a journey.
But yeah, I hope you're well.
That's my question.
Thank you for all your hardwork on the podcast.
We all really appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (52:25):
Take care lots of love oh, maddie, you know how I
love me some irish accent, thankyou, thank you.
Thank you so much forsubmitting your question.
I want to start a whole podcastthat's simply irish people ask
edge, and I will only acceptquestions from people from
Ireland and I will just listento their voices and giggle like
a schoolgirl.
(52:45):
Anyway, to get back to yourquestion, I won't share what my
favorite is because I feel likeI have lots of different
favorite scenes and I don't wantto pick one.
I've had several really specialscenes in my life, but I will
talk about my first one, whichis way back in the Origins
episode.
I doubt anyone even remembersit.
(53:08):
I was in New Orleans.
I had a date with this guy,very vanilla.
We went out in the FrenchQuarter.
He took me to a bunch of bars.
He was buying me a bunch ofdrinks.
I think he was trying to get medrunk.
It worked.
And then one of the bars wewent to or walked by was the of
bars he was buying me a bunch ofdrinks, I think he was trying
to get me drunk.
It worked.
And then one of the bars wewent to or walked by was the
leather bar.
It was called Jewel's, and Iasked him to leave me there,
(53:30):
which I was drunk, but obviouslynot that drunk, because I knew
that's where I wanted to be.
I knew that's where I wanted tobe and within minutes of being
there I met Wally, who was inchaps and probably shirtless
because he had a really nicechest.
And then I went home with Markand Wally while drunk and
(53:52):
according to Wally and I believehis story is true again I was
drunk, not entirely aware ofthings he said he put a pair of
chaps on me and I came just likethat, entirely.
Wear things, he said.
He put a pair of chaps on meand I came just like that.
So that was probably my firstleather scene.
I would also reference my firstgay experience when I was 17.
I was walking along the leveewhich is the big barrier along
the Mississippi River, andthere's an area between the
(54:15):
levee and the river called theBatcher.
It's really like a little floodzone for the river to flood,
not flood the city, and thereare all these trails in the
Batcher and trees.
It's really quite pretty and Imet this very sexy guy walking
his dogs and we ended up makingout and he took me back to his
place.
This was my first gayexperience ever.
I'm not going into super detailbecause everyone's not the place
(54:37):
for it, but I insisted, Iabsolutely insisted he tie me up
before we go any further.
And he went and borrowed a pairof handcuffs from a friend down
the street and put them on meand then put his cock in my
mouth and I thought that wasreally weird and then I realized
that's what a blow job is.
So there you go.
Those are my two firsts myfirst gay sex, leather, my first
gay sex, gay sex and kink, andthen my first leather.
(55:00):
Thank you for the question,maddie, and now our second
question is from Howie.
Speaker 3 (55:06):
Hi Edge, this is Howie from San Jose, california.
I have.
After listening to your agingpodcast, I had two things that I
wanted to share with you andgive you feedback on.
First thing was just from ahealth perspective.
I discovered when I was 55 thatI was low testosterone, which
(55:32):
explains a lot of the energyissues that I had growing up.
So my recommendation for youraudience is to get with your
doctor regularly and especiallyhave your testosterone levels
checked.
The second thing really is aquestion is that I find, as part
(55:54):
of aging, being open tolearning new questions, new
things about life, about peopleand their experiences, and being
willing to consider if myopinions or thoughts need to
change as a result I find thatthat's a really healthy attitude
(56:16):
to have.
Sometimes, based on newinformation, I find the answer
is no, it doesn't change, and onother cases, I find that, yeah,
my thoughts and opinions dochange, and I wanted to ask you
if you would be willing to sharea similar situation that you
may have already talked about orthat you haven't talked about
Howie.
Speaker 1 (56:36):
Thank you, those are both great points.
I am also on hormonereplacement therapy because of
low testosterone and if you havehealth insurance and if you
have access to a doctor, I dorecommend that you get your
testosterone checked fairlyregularly and, if it's low,
advocate for having somereplacement replacement.
(57:01):
It's also worth noting thatthere's a huge disparity between
healthcare when it comes to menand when it comes to women,
reflecting patriarchy, misogyny,all of that.
That women will have a muchharder time with hormone
replacement therapy than men,because testosterone is actually
pretty easy to get prescribed,at least where I live, which has
a very high gay male, older gaymale population.
I'm not going to say older, I'mgoing to say men of a certain
age, mochas.
And as for your question, Iwant to reframe it and I think
(57:26):
what you're really talking aboutis being curious.
Or, if you're not, I'm going tohijack your comment and talk
about being curious, because Iwas just having this
conversation with a dear, dearfriend in San Francisco today
and he was talking aboutcuriosity and I love this notion
of remaining curious.
Being curious is a way for meto reframe different things,
like when I do go on dates.
(57:46):
It's about being curious aboutthe person and seeing to what
extent they're curious about me.
And I think curiosity involvesan openness, because it's like I
want to learn about you, I wantto learn about your experience,
and then after that, thatopen-mindedness is critical.
(58:07):
I think you've pointed that out, that it's critical to then
determining am I going to changemy opinion on something, on
someone, on some situation, onsome fetish, or am I going to
stay locked in and I try topractice curiosity.
I do think it's a way ofkeeping the mind young and the
spirit young, and I think thathelps.
I remain very curious about howpeople work and about their
(58:32):
kinks, and I think as part ofthat, for me, curiosity comes
without judgment.
I just want to know I'm notinterested in judging your kink,
but I'm very curious about itbecause I find kink in general
fascinating, including the kinksI don't have, and so I love
that you're really asking thatquestion of how do we remain in
(58:53):
a flexible mindset where we cankeep learning different skills
but also differences in peopleand sometimes, and that
willingness to being able tochange our mind is pretty
critical as well.
So thank you for that questionand thank you for sharing the
experience and the information,especially about testosterone
and those levels for men, forAMABs.
(59:20):
Right, if you're assigned maleat birth, you should probably be
getting well.
No, that's not true.
It's complicated.
But if you are a cis man or ifyou're a man who has
testosterone, get your levelschecked.
That's what I'm going to say.
I'm sorry if I didn't handlethat elegantly, please forgive
me.
That's it for this episode andI'm so grateful that all of you
have joined me.
(59:40):
Next month will be the seasonfinale, the end of season three
with a preview of season four,if season four should happen, if
I find the energy, the spiritand the drive to keep going.
And that comes from all of youand from things like this
segment where you talk to me andI answer your questions.
(01:00:03):
So think about submitting a fanmail, because those are really
cool, or submitting a questionso that you can contribute to
all.
That is full cow.
So until next time have a super,duper, duper, blessed journey.
And that's it for this episode.
Thank you so much for joiningme.
(01:00:24):
Please consider subscribing oryou can send feedback to edge at
full cow dot show, as always.
May your leather journey beblessed.
Let's talk about addiction, that you are an adult
.
Welcome to Full Cow, a podcastabout leather, kink and BDSM.
(00:42):
My name is Edge my pronouns arehe, him and I am your host, and
in this episode we'll bedealing with the very serious
issue of addiction and itsrelation to leather and kink.
In the first segment, I'llshare with you some of my story
as a recovering addict, and thenin the second segment, I'll
offer you some resources in caseyou or someone you love might
(01:03):
have a problem with addiction.
Then we'll finish up with somequestions from Ask Edge and
highlight a new feature calledFan Mail.
This is a very challengingepisode for me to do because it
is more personal than I thinkany podcast episode I've done,
but I've done my best and Ithink it's a good episode.
(01:24):
So let's get started.
As I noted in the introductionto this episode, this is a very
challenging, very challengingsubject for me because it is so
personal.
You know, in general I'veexperienced a phenomenon lately
where I will meet new people,people and they know things
(01:47):
about me, and I'm always atfirst a little baffled until I
realize they've simply beenlistening to the podcast.
I often forget how much of mypersonal life I share here on
the podcast and it's fantastic.
I think that's the power ofthis podcast, of this.
(02:07):
What I do here is that I'm justanother person sharing my
experience and maybe you learnfrom it.
Maybe it's different from yoursand you're able to recognize a
diverse experience.
I don't know.
But I feel like simply sharinghas a power.
But at the same time, I have tooften wonder what the limits
(02:29):
are.
At what point do I share toomuch?
But this is a really importanttopic.
This is a life or death issue.
Let's not for any momentpretend that addiction does not
kill people, because it does,and I know a lot of people who
have died because of it.
I don't know a lot of leatherpeople, specifically, who have
(02:51):
died because of addiction, andso, even if I feel like I'm
putting myself out there alittle bit extra, I think it's
worth it.
You know, it's also weird for meto do this segment.
This is the segment where Ishare my experience.
I tell my story with thesubject, my story with bondage,
my story with boots, my storywith chastity.
But it's weird because in12-step programs and I do follow
(03:17):
a 12-step program prettycentral to 12-step programs is
sharing your story.
It's sort of how, on some levelit's part of how a 12-step
program works, and so I've donemeetings where I've shared my
story.
But this is a different kind ofsharing.
This is not a 12-step podcast.
Nor do I want to push 12-stepprograms as the solution.
(03:41):
It was the solution for me, itis a solution for some people,
but I don't want tooveremphasize it, and so I'm
both telling my story in a waythat's very familiar, that I've
done a lot, and in a way that iscompletely new and different
and makes me feel veryvulnerable.
So that's all the preface.
(04:04):
I grew up really, really, reallystraight-laced.
I was very much agoody-two-shoes kind of person
and didn't drink until,essentially, college.
I grew up in New Orleans it isa drinking city and a lot of my
peers in high school weredrinking in high school.
I did not.
What I discovered is that I wasnot a very good drinker.
(04:28):
What would happen is I woulddrink right and I'd get a buzz
and I'd be like, wow, this feelsreally good, I'm going to drink
more because I want to feelmore of this, not realizing I
already had enough alcohol in mysystem to increase the buzz.
So I was drinking more and thenI would get too drunk and then
(04:48):
I would get sick and then Iwould have the worst hangovers.
And as this is happening in myearly college years, that is
also my early leather years.
Those were the same time.
So I was experimenting withdrinking as I was learning about
leather and I was learning Iwas not a very good drinker and
I would not be a successfulalcoholic.
(05:08):
I have the worst hangovers.
So eventually and I was prettyhard-headed but eventually I
learned how to moderate mydrinking.
But from the start of my leatherjourney if you've listened to
the first episode, you knowabout Mark and Wally, my gay
leather parents From thebeginning of that journey there
were drugs and you know Mark andWally would have parties at
(05:33):
their place and sometimes therewas LSD and sometimes there was
coke or meth.
I mean, I had a sampling ofevery gay drug available in the
late 1900s and none of themreally were.
None of them stuck is what Iwould say.
I'm like, oh, that'sinteresting.
(05:54):
Okay, that was interesting, butI didn't experience any
problems.
And so, although I was exposedto drugs pretty early on, I was
not immersed in drugs in theearly part of my leather journey
and spent quite a, you know,like years, a decade or more,
sort of not using drugs andbeing a leather person, and in
(06:15):
that I'm really blessed, like Iknow some people whose entry
into leather and kink was drugsand I'll talk about that a
little bit later, I think.
But I was pretty blessed tohave an established leather
track record withoutintoxication, and eventually I
did learn I mean eventually Ibecame a really smart drinker.
(06:39):
I did not over drink.
When I went out, I would have asingle whiskey with my cigar, I
would sip it all night and thenI would go home.
I learned the hard way, whichis not to say that I was a
normal drinker overall.
That's not part of this story.
What happened was, interestingly, right around the time I was
becoming Leather Edge.
There was this real desire forintensity and darkness and
(07:05):
dirtiness and this sort of more.
I don't even know how toexplain it, but I just wanted to
be bad.
I wanted to be bad, I wanted toexperience dark things, and
dark is such a loaded term inthis community and when people
tell me they're into dark stuff,I'm like, okay, well, that's
(07:26):
really code for three or fourdifferent scenes that are really
dangerous in different ways,and it's got to be one of these.
But I was really longing fordark stuff and as part of that I
started doing crystal meth alittle bit more.
And you know, this is theinsidious part of it Like I did
(07:51):
it and I was like, oh, that wasgood.
And then I would do it sixmonths later.
I'm like, oh, that was good.
And then what started out asonce a year became twice a year,
became four times a year,became once a month, became,
became, became.
My usage slowly increased andas, uh, my drug use was
increasing in some significantsense, my leatherness was
decreasing.
So what would happen is, youknow, I didn't really know
(08:13):
anyone in the leather communityusing drugs, but like there was
this sort of middle zone betweenthe vanilla gaze and the kinky
gaze, there were those peoplewho were curious and what I
ended up doing was trading myexperience with leather and my
gear and and my skillset fordrugs.
Essentially, I was giving peopleleather experiences and they
(08:35):
were giving me drugs, and I waskind of fortunate in that.
You know my head, my use, myheavy using period, like the
scope of my addiction wasprobably five years, probably
started around 2000.
And it was.
You know, I was hitting bottomin 2005.
And in that time I never becamea daily user.
(08:56):
I was very fortunate in thatand I was very fortunate in that
I had a couple of regular playpartners who I did almost all my
drug use with.
So I was really blessed in thatI was able to sort of have a
relatively non-crazy,non-chaotic drug run in my
(09:18):
addiction.
And all that time I wasbecoming less and less of the
leather person I wanted to beand I was aware of that.
I was aware of that.
I was aware of the drugs wereascendant and my actual kink was
descendant, because I wouldjust get really high and then
you can't really do anythingkinky not the kink I was used to
(09:40):
doing.
You can't really do the kinkI'm used to doing if you're
really high.
And so I think I was reallyusing people.
I was using people to get drugsperiod End of story.
And it got to a point so Imoved to Florida in 2005, and it
(10:01):
got to a point where I had areally bad experience and put my
life at risk.
I'm not going to say severerisk, it was at risk Like, okay,
I got a problem, I have aproblem.
And that began this turningpoint for me.
I already knew I had a problem.
I already knew something waswrong because for a long time I
(10:26):
was trying to not do crystalmeth.
I would be like I'm not going todo it this weekend and I would
put in place all these crazysafeguards to keep me from doing
it.
And every, every, every, everysingle time I was doing it.
I now think this is part of theessence of addiction, and if
(10:46):
you've suffered from addiction,you know what I'm talking about.
If you've not suffered fromaddiction, it's going to sound
crazy, but what it's like is youwant, with every ounce of your
being, to not do something youdon't want to do meth, you don't
want to drink, you don't wantto spend, you don't want to
gamble, you don't want to actout sexually compulsively.
(11:10):
You don't want to do it withevery ounce of your will, every
fiber of your being, and yet youcan't stop yourself from doing
it.
And it is baffling, and it isdeeply demoralizing to realize
how little control you have overyour own actions, to have your
(11:33):
mind betray you.
That was my experience ofaddiction.
I found recovery through a12-step program and as part of
that I decided if I was going tobe free of addiction I had to
put everything on the table, andthat meant I didn't know if I'd
keep my relationship and Ididn't know if I'd be able to
(11:56):
keep my leather life, because Ididn't know what it would take
for me to not use drugs again.
And so I spent about a yearputting leather on the shelf is
the way I put it.
I didn't go out, I didn'treally have scenes, I wasn't
playing with people, I was justfocused on getting well and
getting better.
About a year maybe it was ninemonths, but it was a healthy
(12:19):
length of time and for me it wasreally about consolidating a
sort of sober life before evencontemplating what else my life
could be.
And then I eased my way backinto leather, and I did it,
bringing with me this sort ofspiritual sense that I had
(12:40):
developed in my recovery.
If you know 12-step programs,spirituality it's essentially
about spirituality, and I wasable to bring that with me, I
was able to ask.
I brought my spirituality intothe playroom, into the bar, into
the sex party.
I brought that with meeverywhere and that was a really
remarkable gift, because whathappened was I was able to
(13:04):
connect back to my leather self,probably better, probably
deeper than before.
I even started using and that'spretty remarkable Excuse the
throat clearing.
And so I went on with myleather life as a sober person.
(13:24):
And then, you know, after myhusband died that was in 2015, I
returned to some fetishes ofmine that necessitated some
substances.
It wasn't crystal meth, it wassome other stuff and that
happened.
Oh God, that would have beenstarting in 2016.
(13:44):
Right, so I got sober wouldhave been starting in 2016.
So I got sober, by the way, in2006.
And I've not used crystal methsince 2006.
That's 18 years.
But starting in late 2016, Istarted slowly doing other
things in the context of a kinkscene, in the context of a
fetish with someone local, andit involved GHB.
(14:08):
And then, eventually, itinvolved ketamine as well and
those substances.
I sort of justified it.
Like you know, this is my kink,this is a fetish, I'm not using
it like drugs, and they didn'tcause the same amount of misery
or chaos that crystal methcaused in my life.
But for a long time I knew thatwasn't right.
(14:31):
I knew it wasn't consistentwith what I thought my sobriety
should be.
I knew I wasn't being honestwith people in my life, and then
that lasted until the end of2021.
And I was going through abreakup and as a result of that
(15:00):
without going into too muchdetails and not bringing, not
telling other people's storiesas a result of that I realized
that I had not been honest and Ineeded to start over.
So, as of January 1st 2022, Iwas like, hey, I'm starting over
.
And even though I had all thistime clean off of crystal meth,
I started from day one.
And so right now, it is October28th in 2024, so I have two
(15:25):
years, nine months and 28 dayssober of all mind-altering
substances.
As we say, this has been areally beautiful journey for me.
For me personally, that I'vebeen able to become a better
person and therefore also abetter leather person.
(15:45):
I've been able to become morewhole and integrated.
I compartmentalize things less,including I used to
compartmentalize my leather lifeand now I feel like I'm really
whole and complete andintegrated.
And all of this is the gift ofwork, the gift I've done from
the work of overcoming myaddiction, and it's a really,
(16:09):
really blessed life.
In the past few years I've alsostarted another 12-step program.
It is a companion program tosome of the larger 12-step
programs and it's really focusedmore on relationships.
And yeah, this is just a littletricky because in 12-step
programs we're not reallysupposed to talk about what
(16:30):
12-step programs we're in,because then you will identify
the 12-step program with me andif I mess up, you think it's a
problem with the 12-step program.
It's a whole complicated thing.
We have what's called atradition around anonymity in
media.
So let's just say that I'vecontinued my 12-step journey.
I'm now in two 12-step programsthat are different, but both
(16:53):
complementary, and one is forpeople who have a problem with
addiction and the other is forpeople who love people who have
a problem with addiction, andboth of them have enhanced my
life quite a bit.
I'd be happy I have no problem.
If people really want to knowmore about the specifics of my
experience in 12-step recovery,I am more than happy to discuss
(17:13):
that one-on-one or if you sendme emails.
But in terms of this as apodcast, I really just want to
focus on the larger story andhere's the larger story podcast.
I really just want to focus onthe larger story and here's the
larger story.
I started playing with drugs.
I discovered I was an addict.
Now, drugs didn't make me anaddict From my perspective.
(17:39):
I was an addict all along.
I was just waiting for theright drug to activate it.
So I don't want to rail againstdrugs.
I don't have any problem withanyone who does drugs Alecans
drugs.
I don't have any problem withanyone who does drugs.
I can't do them.
It is like an allergy.
Right, you can eat peanutsGreat, eat all the peanuts you
want, but if I eat peanuts I'mgoing to die.
It's a little bit like that.
So I was in leather.
I started playing with drugs.
(18:00):
I discovered I was an addict.
I had to get help.
I had to get help.
I was able to get help.
I was able to put down thedrugs and I was able to
disentangle them from my leatherlife and return a better, more
complete, more whole leatherperson.
That's where I'm going to leavethe story for now.
(18:24):
I think in the next segment I'llbe able to reveal a little bit
more as we talk about some ofthe resources available and
honestly, I really wish I couldbe more specific and go into
more details, because I thinkthere's a lot for me to share
there, but I'm really trying tobe mindful of you, the listener,
(18:45):
and what your experience mightbe and what your solution might
be to addiction, which could bevery different from mine.
I'm trying to remain focused onthe fact that this is a podcast
about kink and not aboutaddiction, and I'm trying to be
respectful of the traditions ofthe programs I follow for my
recovery Complicated stuffprograms I follow for my
(19:07):
recovery Complicated stuff.
So if you'd like to know more,reach out to me, and I will also
include some links to resourcesfor sober or recovering leather
kinky people in the show notesand I hope that will do.
And that's it for this segment,but we're going to continue on
and think some more aboutresources available to everyone.
(19:29):
Thank you for your attention.
Part of the challenge of thissegment is that I'm speaking to
two audiences of you out there.
The first audience consists ofpeople who wonder if they have a
problem, and the second ispeople who love someone who they
(19:52):
think may have a problem.
Those are two very differentpopulations, so let me start
with my understanding ofaddiction.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
And I want to make clear that we are talking about
addiction very broadly.
Speaker 1 (20:05):
That includes drugs, alcohol, spending, sex, love
relationships, gambling, onlineporn, and the list goes on and
on.
In my experience and I'm notspeaking as any sort of health
professional, I'm speaking of methe defining characteristic I
have found in my experience ofaddiction is that it is
(20:27):
obsessive and compulsive, whichmeans when I wasn't using meth,
I was thinking about using meth,and then, when I was near it, I
would use it, whether or not Iwanted to.
That was the compulsion, and Ifind that crops up in other
areas of my life.
I have a fairly ongoingchallenging relationship with
(20:49):
sweets late at night, and therehave been, in the course of, say
, the last decade, many nightswhere I have found myself
driving to get cookies, eventhough I hated it and didn't
want to cookies, even though Ihated it and didn't want to, but
I could not stop.
That's the compulsion.
I have found myself thinkingabout desserts starting early in
(21:14):
the evening.
That's the obsession.
So my first piece of advice toyou is if there's an issue in
your life that you feel you bothobsess and compulse around,
that's something to payattention to.
The challenge with a diseaselike addiction and as far as I'm
concerned.
It is a disease.
I feel it's a brain disorder.
I feel there's something wrongwith the wiring of my neurons.
(21:35):
I don't think it's a moralfailing.
I don't think it's anythingelse but a disease like other
kinds of diseases, other mentalhealth issues, like depression.
I also think depression isn'tjust you're feeling down.
It means your neurochemicalsare out of whack.
So in my experience, addictionis a disease.
But what's challenging is oneof the symptoms from my
(21:55):
experience of the disease ofaddiction is you tell yourself
you're not an addict.
And that's complicated becausethey're like how do you know?
Critically, no one can tell youthat you're an addict.
You have to decide that foryourself.
Now, if you're here andlistening because you love
(22:15):
someone who you think has aproblem, that's going to be a
challenge for you, because theyneed to understand they have a
problem.
You may see the problem, youmay see it very clearly, you may
love them and want to solvethat problem for them, but you
cannot.
(22:36):
The only way any of us canbegin to defeat the disease of
addiction is by understandingfor ourselves that we have the
disease of addiction, and thatcomes in lots of ways.
You know.
Often there's a moment wherewell, you know, my experience is
, I knew it for a long time.
(22:56):
There was actually a time whereI was like, oh, I'm an addict
and that means I should use,because that's what addicts do,
right.
So I was using the disease tojustify and fuel more using.
I knew it for a while, butthere came a moment, this moment
of light, clarity, this momentof honesty, when I really
understood I had a problem.
(23:18):
And that's critical alsobecause for a long time I
thought crystal meth was theproblem.
I thought I had gotten addictedto crystal meth and what I
realized is that I was theproblem I had the issue.
That shift from addicted tocrystal meth to being an addict
(23:38):
was big for me and significant,because before that time, if you
had asked me, it caused a wholereorganization of my sense of
self.
Before that time, if you'dasked me who I am, I'd be like
well, I'm a leather man.
That was pretty core to myidentity and my sense of self.
And then, after that moment,core to my identity and sense of
(23:59):
self is I'm an addict.
Because for me, I have to keepan eye on it.
I have to put it central so Ican keep an eye on it, because
if I forget it, I've got thisweird mental quirky disease that
does things like forget I havea problem.
Tell me I don't have a problem.
Tell me it's okay.
If I do it one more time, tellme it's going to be different
this time, all that.
(24:21):
So if you're wondering, youhave a problem.
The other thing you might lookfor is the amount of
unmanageability that this issuecauses in your life.
Going out and eating cookies at10 o'clock at night causes some
unmanageability in my life, inthat I then have to exercise
more to offset the increase incalories I'm taking.
(24:44):
I have to work harder at thegym to make up for what I've
done.
That's a little bit ofunmanageability.
With crystal meth, it was amuch higher degree of
unmanageability as you mightimagine.
So you might want to look andsee how manageable is your life.
How much chaos is there?
How much out-of-control dramais there related to some of your
(25:08):
behaviors?
Gambling, sex, porn, onlineactivities, even kink itself, I
think, could probably be anaddictive behavior, and isn't
that kind of a scary thing tothink about?
So if you're wondering if youhave an addiction, kind of a
scary thing to think about.
So if you're wondering if youhave an addiction.
I would ask you to pay attentionto whether or not you can stop
at will, because for me Icouldn't.
(25:29):
That was the compulsion,whether or not you think about
it when you're not doing it.
For me that was the obsession,whether or not the behavior
causes problems in your lifeLike, what are the problems and
how are they related to thebehavior?
And then also, do you keeptelling yourself you don't have
a problem?
(25:49):
Because you know what my senseis?
Normal people don't spend themental energy to tell themselves
they don't have a problembecause they don't have a
problem.
It's only when you have aproblem you start trying to
convince yourself that you don'thave a problem.
Only when you have a problemyou start trying to convince
yourself that you don't have aproblem.
So those are my hints and tipsto you.
If you're considering whether ornot you might have an issue,
and if you love someone who youthink has an issue, there's a
(26:11):
whole program for you and I hopeyou find it because it offers a
lot of comfort and it is acompanion program to Alcoholics
Anonymous.
It's called Al-Anon, I think Ican say that, and so respect
their traditions and it's worthchecking out.
So the first step to dealingwith addiction is definitely to
(26:33):
figure out whether or not youhave addiction, and that's a
step only you can take.
In terms of its relationship tokink, here are some things to
keep in mind.
First of all, I do think for awhile I mean for a while, for a
couple of decades now I havefelt that meth was an epidemic
(26:54):
in the leather community and forme it was the second deadly
pandemic raging against us AfterHIV that wiped out a large
chunk of a generation.
Now there's the problem of meth, but also opiate addiction and
the rise of fentanyl.
So certainly locally here inFort Lauderdale there's a lot,
(27:18):
lot, lot of drug use.
But I do think broadly it isinfiltrated in many areas of the
leather community and that'scomplicated if we think about
why, and I don't want to explorethat too much.
But what I do want to say isthat at its core, at its core,
(27:41):
the leather community isvehemently anti-intoxication.
At its core, the leathercommunity is vehemently
anti-intoxication.
You know, someone onceexplained to me the simplest
form of addiction and recovery.
They said isolation is thedisease and connection is the
(28:07):
cure.
And I know that was true For me.
I ended up alone when using allthe time.
Even if I started with someone,I ended up alone.
I ended up isolated.
Isolation was a manifestationof my disease.
There was a time when I wasreally kind of manifesting my
addiction in sexual behaviorsand I would spend hours alone.
(28:28):
I would always end updisconnected.
That was the manifestation ofmy disease and the way I've
learned to recover is throughconnection.
The reason I'm sharing that isbecause I also have a friend on
Facebook who constantly postsphotos of guys in leather and
he'll say leather is aboutconnection.
So the core of the leathercommunity is about connecting.
(28:51):
Kink when we do it is aboutconnection.
It is about pleasure, but it'sabout intimacy.
It is about being with someone.
I do not do kink to you.
I don't flog you, right?
I mean I do flog you, but Idon't do things to you.
We do things together.
For me, connection is thecenter of what we do in kink,
(29:13):
and addiction destroysconnection.
Addiction is about isolation,so that both means that we are
seeing this pandemic ofaddiction ravaging the leather
and king communities, but at itscore, because we are a
community that is so deeplyinvested in connection.
That means if you find the coreof the community, you will find
(29:35):
that it is anti-intoxicationand there are good reasons for
that, beyond the kind ofemphasis on intimacy, if you
think about the sort of code weuse.
We use safe, sane, consensual.
We use risk-aware kink.
That's even probably morepopular now.
But, let's go back to theclassic safe, sane, consensual.
(29:57):
If one or both parties areunder the influence of drugs or
alcohol, then your judgment isimpaired, consent is impaired,
safety is impaired, sanity isimpaired.
Right, it is hard to be safe,sane and consensual and practice
kink when one or both partiesare impaired, as kink when one
(30:27):
or both parties are impaired.
So that's another reason whybeing leather and being deeply
addicted are not necessarilycompatible.
Now I don't want to suggestthat you must only ever play
sober.
I think there are certainlyways to do harm reduction and to
incorporate drugs into scenes.
I can't do it because Iessentially have an allergy of
(30:48):
body and mind and I will end updead.
Let's not get into that, butthat's what will happen.
But I think other people canuse substances responsibly and a
lot of that is that notion ofresponsibly.
I have a friend who does drugsbut he does a prescribed dose.
He keeps track of when he doesit.
(31:09):
He knows how many hours to waitbefore he does another dose.
He doesn't accept drugs fromstrangers.
He tests his drugs for fentanyl.
He is practicing harm reduction.
If we reach deep in history, alot of these mind-altering
substances had ecstaticreligious possibilities in them.
(31:30):
I'm not talking about meth, butI'm talking about, in general,
mind-altering.
If we look at certain spiritualtraditions, mind-altering was
part of the ecstatic practiceand that also sometimes included
pain practices.
So I think there are ways toincorporate substances with
(31:50):
intent and with responsibilityinto kink.
So I don't want to say like, oh, if you use substances well,
then you're a bad leather person.
But I would hope that if youuse them well, then you're a bad
leather person.
But I would hope that if youuse them, you're having a
thorough discussion with yourpartner and that you're using
them responsibly.
That's the key responsibly.
(32:12):
For me, I could not use themresponsibly.
Perhaps that's true for you aswell, and if so, then you might
want to think about not justharm reduction strategies but
actual recovery strategies.
I've shared that.
For me, a 12-step program worked.
I know a lot of people asqueers.
(32:32):
We have been deeply, deeplywounded and damaged by organized
religion.
Period Period Not universallytrue, but broadly true that
queers have been deeply woundedby organized religion, and so
when you hear about a programthat has the word God in it, we
(32:52):
are not really running towardsthat.
It's not like our first choiceright.
12 Step was not my first choice.
Therapy was my first choice.
Therapy was the first thing Itried.
That didn't.
I tried everything I knew totry before I got to 12-step.
So if you're not ready for12-step or if you don't think
it's going to work for you,there are other options.
(33:13):
I think the key is myexperience is addiction is not
something you can overcome byyourself.
It was not something I canovercome by yourself.
It was not something I couldovercome by myself.
I had to ask for help and theway that manifested for me is in
a 12-step program, but it maymanifest different ways for you,
but I know of only three peoplein the whole of my life and
(33:38):
existence who've been able towalk away from meth specifically
just out of willpower, and Idon't know how they did that,
but I know three people who did.
Everyone else I know had somesort of help.
That doesn't mean 12-stepprogram.
In particular, you might trysomething like CBT no, no, no,
not the kind of CBT we like, Imean cognitive behavioral
(34:01):
therapy and that can help youidentify and change harmful
patterns of thinking andbehavior that are related to
your addictive behavior.
There's also a whole otherprogram called Smart Recovery,
and this is really based.
I think it's actually based inCBT, but it's about
self-empowerment, self-reliance,behavioral change through
practical techniques, and thatis available both in person and
online.
Think it's actually based inCBT, but it's about
(34:21):
self-empowerment, self-reliance,behavioral change through
practical techniques, and thatis available both in person and
online.
And if you're really resistantto these notions of spirituality
that come with 12-step programs, it might be a good option for
you to explore.
In addition to the harmreduction approaches we've
already talked about, you mightalso think about mindfulness and
(34:42):
meditation-based programs.
If you think about somethinglike refuge recovery, it's
12-steppy broadly, but it'sreally Buddhist and it's a
Buddhist-inspired path torecovery that focuses on
mindfulness, self-compassion andemotional regulation.
So if Buddhism resonates foryou, there's both refuge,
(35:06):
recovery and recovery dharma,which also uses Buddhist
principles.
If you're a little satanic,there is a group called the
Sober Faction which is part ofthe Church of Satan.
I think it's Church of Satan,right?
C-o-s Church of Satan.
That is a sort of satanicapproach to recovery and satanic
(35:26):
in the sort of non-theisticsense, or is it theistic?
It's a group that really isabout empowering yourself, right
.
So that might be worthexploring.
There are different therapyoptions.
You might want to, inparticular, look for a
kink-aware professional, andthere are online recovery
(35:49):
communities, including Reddit'sStop Drinking community and apps
like Tempest that offer digitalcourses and community support.
There's a lot of peer supportin the community for people who
are trying to avoid addictivebehaviors and I'll provide some
(36:10):
of those resources in the shownotes.
But also consider things likefitness and wellness programs.
Some people find recoverythrough exercise and physical
health and things like yoga,strength training, martial arts,
because they can help managecravings and stress and they can
provide an alternativecommunity outside of your usual
(36:31):
party scene.
And then if you also integratethat wellness into your leather
and kink lifestyle, then you'recreating opportunities to really
come back into control andredefine power and control and
discipline in healthier and moremindful ways.
Some people, I think, have alsoexplored holistic and
alternative therapies to dealwith addiction.
That includes acupuncture,equine therapy, art therapy that
(36:56):
really offer healing throughless traditional means and that
might appeal to you if you'renot really into talk therapy.
Like many of the other aspectsof these programs, they can
really address emotional,spiritual, physical aspects of
your addiction that help youmove towards recovery.
There's alsomedication-assisted treatment.
(37:19):
This is especially important, Ithink, if your issue is opiates
.
So if you're thinking aboutsomething like Suboxone or
methadone that can be used inconjunction with counseling or
therapy to help managewithdrawal and cravings, and I
think what you'll find is thatany kink event probably has some
(37:39):
sort of recovery space.
There are actual 12-stepmeetings at all the major events
, but what's nice is they'rekind of super generic 12-step
meetings.
I've gone to these and you canjust show up and not really be a
12-step person but be in a roomof people who are kinky and
don't use substances andunderstand the powerlessness of
(38:04):
being forced to do somethingagainst your will because your
mind is acting against yourwishes.
So there are a number ofresources.
Let's also keep in mind there'sa whole atheist version of
12-step program.
So if you're averse to 12-stepif you tried it, it didn't work
for you if you just can't standthe notion of spirit or God,
(38:27):
great, there's still a lot ofoptions available to you if you
ask for help.
And I think the other thing isany day I don't use is a victory
right.
So if you can just make itthrough today without whatever
your behavior is, withoutlooking at porn, without binge
eating, without spending andgetting the high, without
(38:51):
shoplifting, whatever that isthat is your compulsive,
addictive behavior.
If you can spend one day notdoing it, that's a victory.
But that also means that if youtry a program, 12-step
cognitive behavioral therapy,smart recovery, whatever it is
if you try it it doesn't work,keep trying it or try another
(39:11):
one, or try two at the same time.
That what I've been taught andwhat I really believe is that
addiction is a progressive andfatal disease, and so I know
that for me this is my personaltruth that if I start using
again, I will keep using moreand more and eventually I will
(39:33):
die.
It is a fatal disease and Idon't think you have to look
very far around us to realizethat notion of fatality.
I know more than one.
That's silly.
I know a lot, not quite that.
I know a number of leatherkinky people who have died from
(39:55):
addiction, and that's a loss forthe community.
That's the epidemic that rages.
It's also very complicated Onceyou do get recovered, once you
do move out of the addictiveactions.
It's really complicated torecover your leather and kinky
self.
You know I shared earlier thatI was really lucky that I had a
(40:19):
leather life before my addictionreally took off and so
therefore I had a place to goback to.
I understood what kink waswithout drugs or alcohol, but
for many people and this is whatI've learned from my experience
and hearing people's storiestheir entry into leather was
(40:42):
with drugs or alcohol orwhatever substances, because
there was so much shame, therewas so much guilt, there was so
much fear around wanting todrink piss or wanting to get
beaten or wanting to get fuckedby 30 guys that the drugs gave
them a way to do it.
Their challenge, once they walkaway, once they're freed from
(41:09):
the addictive behavior, isdisentangling kink from that
behavior, because a lot of timesthey become so deeply linked in
the brain that it can take along time to pry those two
things apart and understand thekink behavior without the
substances.
I have a number of friendswho've done this journey with
(41:32):
fisting, where they first gotfisted with drugs which can
obviously provide a lot of help,a lot of support if you're
dealing with a fist in your assand then they had a life where
their fisting was always on somesort of substance and then,
once they left the addictivebehavior and the substances
(41:53):
behind it was like, okay, how doI go back to fisting?
But they did.
Here's the news I have for youthat if your entry into leather
was all jumbled up, or if yourleather kink life now is all
jumbled up with some sort ofaddictive behavior, it is
possible to disentangle them.
(42:14):
It is possible to return to thethings that gave you pleasure
without addictive behaviors.
That's a longer journey forsome than others and it may
require a lot of time, a lot ofwork, a lot of therapy and a lot
of support.
But it is possible.
(42:35):
I know it from my journey and Ihave seen it in several,
several, several, several,several of my peers and friends
who were able to eventuallyexperience leather and kink
without their addictivebehaviors.
So I want you to know it'spossible.
So the messages I would likeyou to take away from this
(42:59):
segment First of all, if youlove someone and you think they
have a problem, look intoAl-Anon.
I would love to sugarcoat it andjust say there's a companion
program, blah, blah, blah.
But I just need to be clear.
Look into Al-Anon, itrepresents its own.
Maybe I should do a wholeseparate program sometime on
that, but it has its ownchallenges.
(43:19):
Maybe I should do a wholeseparate program sometime on
that, but it has its ownchallenges.
But it is an incredible,incredible wealth of wisdom,
experience and hope.
If you love someone who youthink has a problem, if you
think you may have a problem,hopefully I've offered some tips
from my experience of how Ifigured out I had a problem and
hopefully, if you do have aproblem, you come to understand
(43:43):
that you do have a problem.
I hope that you take away fromthis segment that at its core,
because leather is aboutconnection.
Leather is anti-intoxication.
That saying that is not a wayof vilifying people or excluding
people who use substances intheir play, but asking them to
(44:05):
do it as safely, sanely andconsensually as possible, to
talk about risk and to practicegood harm reduction If you do
discover you have a problem.
12-step was my solution.
It is not the only solution.
There are a range of therapysolutions and group-based
solutions, but from myexperience, what's critical is
getting some help and there area lot of different kinds of help
(44:27):
out there and whether drugscame into your leather life that
you had before the addictivebehavior, or whether those
addictive substances eased yourentry and erased your shame
around your kinked desires,there will come a day when
(44:47):
you're able to disentangle,separate the two of them and
come back to leather as theperson you want to be, as the
person that you are alreadysomewhere deep inside.
I know that this, you know I.
Often I also feel like thisisn't the super best segment,
(45:09):
because I'm both trying toaddress broad issues like
addiction, but in a leathercontext, and there's probably a
lot more I can say, but I amwalking complicated lines of
traditions and personalboundaries and sharing
experience and all that.
I hope that you've gottensomething useful out of this
(45:30):
segment and certainly, if youneed some help, feel free to
reach out to me.
Thank you, welcome to Ask Edge,the segment where I answer
questions from all of you, nowwith fan mail.
So my podcast is hosted througha company called Buzzsprout and
(45:51):
they have a new feature calledfan mail.
You will find it in the shownotes of every episode.
At the top it says send a textand literally you're able to
text me a little note.
It shows up on my Buzzsproutpage and so I will be sharing a
couple of fan mails I'vereceived, as well as Ask Edge,
(46:11):
the segment where I answerquestions from all of you.
Please feel free to submit yourquestions.
Either leave me a voicemail atspeakpipecom slash leatheredge
L-T-H-R-E-D-G-E that is,speakpipecom slash leatheredge
or send me an email at ask atfullcowshow, and both of those
(46:33):
links are also available in theshow notes.
In the show notes.
So the first piece of fan mail Ireceived is from Glasgow.
It's from James in Glasgow andhe says Hi there and hello from
Glasgow.
I'm so pleased you had a greatvisit to Scotland.
Your podcast perfectly capturesso many of the typical things
(46:55):
about our country, especiallythe iron brew and the empire
biscuits.
I love that you're planningfurther trips to Europe.
If you ever travel to Berlin,give me a shout.
I'm a regular visitor there soI can offer some tips about
places to visit eating, drinkingand the leather scene.
Thanks again for your wonderfulshow, james in Glasgow, berlin.
(47:16):
Yes, you know, you would thinkI've been.
People tend to think that I'vebeen to Berlin any number of
times, but the truth is I'venever been and it's on my list.
It is on my list.
I don't know when I'm going toget there.
I will say I'm not reallyinterested in going to Folsom
and I'm not really interested ingoing to Easter.
In part that's becausesometimes the weather
(47:41):
particularly with Folsom, I'veheard the weather can be a
little not conducive to leather.
More than anything it's because, well, it's two reasons I want
to be the new meat in town and Idon't want to have to compete
with thousands of leathermenfrom all over the world.
Not the best reason, but it'strue and I'm going to say it.
The second thing is I want tobe able to see the city of
(48:02):
Berlin and not feel like I'mmissing out on some event.
So my plan is to head to Berlinat some point and make sure I
hit a black weekend, which Iunderstand is a great weekend,
but it's a little lessoverwhelming than some of the
larger events.
I will be sure to keep peopleposted should I make it to
(48:23):
Berlin for a Black Weekend.
My second fan mail comes fromAustralia.
Hello to you, edge.
I wanted to say thank you fordoing this podcast.
As someone who is completely atodds and confused and denial of
my leather journey, your wordsare of a great support and
appreciate you, ash, australia,thank you.
(48:43):
Thank you, ash.
You know I also just recentlygot a nice message on Instagram
I hope you know who I'm talkingabout but thank you again.
These little messages that tellme this podcast means something
.
This resonated for you.
The podcast, this episode,meant something to you.
(49:05):
You learned something here.
This helped you there.
These are pretty critical to mebecause I will admit I am
dragging man.
I am dragging with the podcastand not to get too deeply into
it, but I've been single for awhile now and I find that that's
dragging my overall energylevels down and the podcast has
(49:29):
been feeling like a little bitof a chore.
Fortunately, I'm nearing theend of this season and I get my
hiatus, which hopefully I willuse to recharge, and I have
started planning season four.
I'm not going to commit to it,but I have started planning.
I have a good sense.
I'll tell you.
I'll wait until the seasonfinale to tell you what I'm
planning for season four.
(49:49):
I think it's going to be goodand I can't promise you, I'm
going to do it, but the goodnews is I'm thinking about a
season four.
The only thing, the only reasonI keep doing this.
This really became a lot ofwork at some point, but I get
these messages from people andI'm just like blown away that I
am able to touch people's livesin any way whatsoever.
(50:13):
Podcast has become important topeople and therefore I keep
doing it because for all of you,like, I'm not doing this for me
.
I was never really doing thisfor me.
I started the podcast really tofill time after a breakup and to
have something to talk aboutwhen I was dating, like, oh yeah
, I'm starting a podcast.
Really, tell me about yourpodcast.
And it's become something thatI do for all of you because it's
(50:38):
important.
And I only know it's importantbecause you send me these little
messages that tell me it'simportant.
So, ash, thank you.
You've moved this entirepodcast closer to a season four
simply by taking the time tosend me a text to fan mail.
I love that.
It's texting, that's prettycool.
So that's all the fan mail thistime.
(50:58):
Perhaps we will have some morein the future.
And we have two questions.
The first is from Matty.
Speaker 2 (51:06):
Hello, edge Matty here, 29.
He him Live in the UK.
Leather lad Originally fromIreland.
Lad originally from Ireland,long time fan of the podcast.
It's been an integral part ofmy journey into leather and kink
(51:27):
.
I guess my question for youwould be what was your first
session or scene in leather orkink or BDSM and, if you've
already answered that one on thepodcast or on another question,
what's been your favouritescene that you've ever done in
Leather and Kink?
(51:47):
I think my first experience ofLeather and Kink was in a gay
campsite and I cruised this guyin leather.
He kind of walked into thedarkroom and I immediately
noticed that he was wearingleather boots, leather shorts, a
leather vest and I thought,damn, I want to play with that
(52:10):
guy.
So I took him back to histrailer and that's what we did
and from there it's been a bitof a journey.
But yeah, I hope you're well.
That's my question.
Thank you for all your hardwork on the podcast.
We all really appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (52:25):
Take care lots of love oh, maddie, you know how I
love me some irish accent, thankyou, thank you.
Thank you so much forsubmitting your question.
I want to start a whole podcastthat's simply irish people ask
edge, and I will only acceptquestions from people from
Ireland and I will just listento their voices and giggle like
a schoolgirl.
(52:45):
Anyway, to get back to yourquestion, I won't share what my
favorite is because I feel likeI have lots of different
favorite scenes and I don't wantto pick one.
I've had several really specialscenes in my life, but I will
talk about my first one, whichis way back in the Origins
episode.
I doubt anyone even remembersit.
(53:08):
I was in New Orleans.
I had a date with this guy,very vanilla.
We went out in the FrenchQuarter.
He took me to a bunch of bars.
He was buying me a bunch ofdrinks.
I think he was trying to get medrunk.
It worked.
And then one of the bars wewent to or walked by was the of
bars he was buying me a bunch ofdrinks, I think he was trying
to get me drunk.
It worked.
And then one of the bars wewent to or walked by was the
leather bar.
It was called Jewel's, and Iasked him to leave me there,
(53:30):
which I was drunk, but obviouslynot that drunk, because I knew
that's where I wanted to be.
I knew that's where I wanted tobe and within minutes of being
there I met Wally, who was inchaps and probably shirtless
because he had a really nicechest.
And then I went home with Markand Wally while drunk and
(53:52):
according to Wally and I believehis story is true again I was
drunk, not entirely aware ofthings he said he put a pair of
chaps on me and I came just likethat, entirely.
Wear things, he said.
He put a pair of chaps on meand I came just like that.
So that was probably my firstleather scene.
I would also reference my firstgay experience when I was 17.
I was walking along the leveewhich is the big barrier along
the Mississippi River, andthere's an area between the
(54:15):
levee and the river called theBatcher.
It's really like a little floodzone for the river to flood,
not flood the city, and thereare all these trails in the
Batcher and trees.
It's really quite pretty and Imet this very sexy guy walking
his dogs and we ended up makingout and he took me back to his
place.
This was my first gayexperience ever.
I'm not going into super detailbecause everyone's not the place
(54:37):
for it, but I insisted, Iabsolutely insisted he tie me up
before we go any further.
And he went and borrowed a pairof handcuffs from a friend down
the street and put them on meand then put his cock in my
mouth and I thought that wasreally weird and then I realized
that's what a blow job is.
So there you go.
Those are my two firsts myfirst gay sex, leather, my first
gay sex, gay sex and kink, andthen my first leather.
(55:00):
Thank you for the question,maddie, and now our second
question is from Howie.
Speaker 3 (55:06):
Hi Edge, this is Howie from San Jose, california.
I have.
After listening to your agingpodcast, I had two things that I
wanted to share with you andgive you feedback on.
First thing was just from ahealth perspective.
I discovered when I was 55 thatI was low testosterone, which
(55:32):
explains a lot of the energyissues that I had growing up.
So my recommendation for youraudience is to get with your
doctor regularly and especiallyhave your testosterone levels
checked.
The second thing really is aquestion is that I find, as part
(55:54):
of aging, being open tolearning new questions, new
things about life, about peopleand their experiences, and being
willing to consider if myopinions or thoughts need to
change as a result I find thatthat's a really healthy attitude
(56:16):
to have.
Sometimes, based on newinformation, I find the answer
is no, it doesn't change, and onother cases, I find that, yeah,
my thoughts and opinions dochange, and I wanted to ask you
if you would be willing to sharea similar situation that you
may have already talked about orthat you haven't talked about
Howie.
Speaker 1 (56:36):
Thank you, those are both great points.
I am also on hormonereplacement therapy because of
low testosterone and if you havehealth insurance and if you
have access to a doctor, I dorecommend that you get your
testosterone checked fairlyregularly and, if it's low,
advocate for having somereplacement replacement.
(57:01):
It's also worth noting thatthere's a huge disparity between
healthcare when it comes to menand when it comes to women,
reflecting patriarchy, misogyny,all of that.
That women will have a muchharder time with hormone
replacement therapy than men,because testosterone is actually
pretty easy to get prescribed,at least where I live, which has
a very high gay male, older gaymale population.
I'm not going to say older, I'mgoing to say men of a certain
age, mochas.
And as for your question, Iwant to reframe it and I think
(57:26):
what you're really talking aboutis being curious.
Or, if you're not, I'm going tohijack your comment and talk
about being curious, because Iwas just having this
conversation with a dear, dearfriend in San Francisco today
and he was talking aboutcuriosity and I love this notion
of remaining curious.
Being curious is a way for meto reframe different things,
like when I do go on dates.
(57:46):
It's about being curious aboutthe person and seeing to what
extent they're curious about me.
And I think curiosity involvesan openness, because it's like I
want to learn about you, I wantto learn about your experience,
and then after that, thatopen-mindedness is critical.
(58:07):
I think you've pointed that out, that it's critical to then
determining am I going to changemy opinion on something, on
someone, on some situation, onsome fetish, or am I going to
stay locked in and I try topractice curiosity.
I do think it's a way ofkeeping the mind young and the
spirit young, and I think thathelps.
I remain very curious about howpeople work and about their
(58:32):
kinks, and I think as part ofthat, for me, curiosity comes
without judgment.
I just want to know I'm notinterested in judging your kink,
but I'm very curious about itbecause I find kink in general
fascinating, including the kinksI don't have, and so I love
that you're really asking thatquestion of how do we remain in
(58:53):
a flexible mindset where we cankeep learning different skills
but also differences in peopleand sometimes, and that
willingness to being able tochange our mind is pretty
critical as well.
So thank you for that questionand thank you for sharing the
experience and the information,especially about testosterone
and those levels for men, forAMABs.
(59:20):
Right, if you're assigned maleat birth, you should probably be
getting well.
No, that's not true.
It's complicated.
But if you are a cis man or ifyou're a man who has
testosterone, get your levelschecked.
That's what I'm going to say.
I'm sorry if I didn't handlethat elegantly, please forgive
me.
That's it for this episode andI'm so grateful that all of you
have joined me.
(59:40):
Next month will be the seasonfinale, the end of season three
with a preview of season four,if season four should happen, if
I find the energy, the spiritand the drive to keep going.
And that comes from all of youand from things like this
segment where you talk to me andI answer your questions.
(01:00:03):
So think about submitting a fanmail, because those are really
cool, or submitting a questionso that you can contribute to
all.
That is full cow.
So until next time have a super,duper, duper, blessed journey.
And that's it for this episode.
Thank you so much for joiningme.
(01:00:24):
Please consider subscribing oryou can send feedback to edge at
full cow dot show, as always.
May your leather journey beblessed.
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