September 6, 2024 • 47 mins
Welcome to Full Cow, a podcast about leather and kink where your host, Edge (he/him), shares his 30+ years of experience in the community. In this special episode, it's all Ask Edge! Join me as I answer a series of questions submitted by all of you.
Ask Edge! Go to https://www.speakpipe.com/LTHREDGE to leave ask a question or leave feedback. Find Edge's other content on Instagram and Twitter. Also visit his archive of educational videos, Tchick-Tchick.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:19):
Let's Ask EDGE that you are an adult.
Welcome to Full Cow, a podcastabout leather kink and BDSM.
(00:42):
My name is Edge, my pronounsare he, him, and I'm your host,
and we have a super specialepisode for you this time, and
it's something I always kind ofhoped would happen and it
finally did.
I finally got enough questionsfrom all of you to do an entire
(01:04):
episode just answering yourquestions.
I think this is excitingbecause you get lots of
different topics, because youget to hear lots of different
voices, because we're going tovisit lots of different spots in
the world of Leather King andBDSM.
So I want to invite all of youto send in more questions so
(01:26):
that I can do this again.
Perhaps sometimes, assuming youlike this episode, you can send
your questions by email to askat fullcalshow or, even better,
leave me a voicemail atspeakpipecom slash leatheredge
L-T-H-R-E-D-G-E.
(01:46):
That's speakpipecom slashleatheredge, and both those
links are available in the shownotes, so no need to take memory
or special note, you can simplygo click on it and send in your
questions about anything.
They don't have to be deep, theydon't have to be profound.
If you want to know more aboutme, I'm pretty much an open book
(02:09):
, as I think this podcastillustrates, so I'm very excited
for this show.
This is probably one of theepisodes I'm most excited for
and I say let's get started.
Let's get started.
Our first question comes fromChaste, florida.
Speaker 3 (02:29):
Guy Hi Edge, I'm a fellow Chastity enthusiast and
myself own the Ovation Orion andspend a significant amount of
time in it.
Thank you so much for yourpodcast.
It's nice to hear theexperience of a fellow locked
boy and what we deal with.
(02:49):
So anyway, I also live in FortLauderdale and it would be great
to actually meet you and chatin person sometime.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
Well, hello there.
Yes, we have been chatting onTwitter and trying to coordinate
some schedules and finally meet, and I think I love this
question because it reallypoints to the importance of
connections.
And with chastity, yes,especially you don't just want a
(03:19):
keyholder, because a keyholdershould be someone who is
supportive and working with youthrough your challenges with
chastity.
But that is also a very powerkind of dynamic.
Knowing other people who alsoenjoy being locked and I
consider myself not a locked boybut a locked man Knowing other
(03:39):
people who also enjoy beinglocked and connecting with them
can give you a kind ofcamaraderie that you don't
necessarily get with a keyholder, and this isn't simply
about chastity.
I often think some of the mostpowerful groups I've seen are
small circles of boys who arevery good friends, because,
(04:03):
let's face it, it is really hardto find a counterpart, find a
daddy, find a mistress, find awhatever you need, or to find a
key holder.
That's really hard.
And so having people who arelooking for the same thing and
understanding you're not incompetition with them, you are
(04:26):
in allegiance with them, youhave the same needs it provides
not only a sense of supportwhile you're searching, but it
also offers you a kind of groupthat can check potential suitors
and really help you look forred flags, that can offer you
advice in complicated situations, who can celebrate your
(04:50):
victories but also console youin your sorrows.
So I am hoping to connect withyou and I will be following up
to work on that, and I encourageall of you to look for others
like you not your counterpart,but others who are also dog girl
(05:11):
slave, however you identifybecause that horizontal
camaraderie can offer you wisdomand support wisdom and support.
I'll also point out that mychastity journey hasn't really
exactly started yet.
If you've listened to thepodcast with some regularity,
(05:33):
you know that I did get theEvotion Orion custom and I had
some fit issues.
They corrected those, but Ihaven't had the time and space
in my world to dedicate toreally making a go of it and I'm
not yet convinced that I gotthe rest of the measurements
right.
So there may be someadjustments yet to come.
(05:53):
I actually have on my to-dolist for Saturday to try
everything back on and give it ago.
Now, as always with chastity,it's not simply I'm going to
lock myself and throw away thekey no I'm going to spend an
hour in it.
See how that feels.
I'm going to the next day,spend a few hours, eventually
try to spend the whole day.
(06:13):
Do some important things likego to the gym in it, go to work
in it.
I slowly build up to beinglocked overnight and once I've
done that then I can just repeatthat every single day and stay
as locked for as long as I want.
So I will continue to updateall of you on my chastity
journey.
I will connect with ChasteFlorida Guy, and I will invite
(06:37):
all of you to look for networksof others like you to provide
support and comfort and hope andinspiration and experience and
wisdom and everything.
Sorry, our next question isfrom Charlie.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
Edge.
This is Charlie.
We worked together about twoand a half years ago and you
mentored me through some reallyimportant initial steps of my
belated leather journey.
I went to claw because of you.
I did a very powerful thirdstep of self-acceptance.
Because of you, because of yourhelp and the notion that I
(07:19):
could think of submission as anessential gift, a divine gift
like musical talent.
Anyway, I've had to step awayto do some other inner work for
about a year.
I'm finding myself ready tostep back in, possibly in a more
committed way.
(07:40):
And my question is how oftendoes that happen where?
And my question is how oftendoes that happen where a leather
man has to step out of thatidentity for a time in order to
return to it more strongly?
Speaker 1 (07:53):
Thanks, yes, charlie, actually I think he hunted me
down on Twitter and kind ofhounded me into being his
leather life coach and I reallyenjoyed it and that was
enjoyable work for me.
It's actually made me thinkabout getting some official life
(08:14):
coach kind of training andoffering leather life coaching
as a service.
But to get to your question,charlie, it is extremely common
to step away from leather forsome period of time,
particularly for people of ourgeneration, people of a certain
age, shall we say, and let'scall it later ages.
(08:38):
We'll just put that verypolitely.
As we grow older, we do haveaccess to more resources that
allow us to go to leather events, allow us to buy more gear.
However, many of us findourselves as caretakers for
ailing parents or caretakers foran ailing partner or dealing
(09:00):
with serious health issues ofour own.
So I know a lot of people whohave stepped away for some
period of time to cope withwhatever else is going on in
life and then have returned.
It is perfectly normal.
You have not lost anything.
(09:23):
You can move back into thecommunity, perhaps with better
navigation skills than when youleft.
I myself did this when I wasfirst getting sober.
I took about a year off fromleather.
I just put it mentally andpretty much physically on the
shelf and didn't do anythingwith it because I wanted to
(09:45):
focus on getting sober, makingsure I had that foundation.
And I also understood that Ihad to look very closely whether
or not a leather life was goingto be compatible with a sober
life and if it came to a choicebetween the two, I knew I was
going to have to choose sobrietyto a choice between the two.
(10:06):
I knew I was going to have tochoose sobriety.
Fortunately, I didn't have tomake that choice.
I stepped away.
I got my foundation in whatworked for me, which was 12-step
recovery, and then I came backto leather and I navigated it
even better thanks to the work Ihad done on myself, and that
was when I was in my mid-30s.
So it's not even necessarily aquestion of what happens when
(10:27):
you get older and people aroundyou are experiencing health
issues or you're experiencingthem.
It can happen even earlier inlife and I certainly know
several people in the rooms ofrecovery who take time off from
leather to sort things out andto figure out what behaviors
remain healthy for themselves.
(10:48):
So the takeaway here foreveryone you know I get a lot of
, I run into a lot of people whofeel like they started late or
they're running out of time orsome sense of missing out on
their leather journey, and Idon't want to dismiss those
(11:10):
claims.
Those feelings are perfectlyvalid, of course, and I've been
super blessed that I've had avery long and fairly consistent
leather journey.
But in my heart I do believethat there is some sort of
greater plan for us, some sortof arrangement in the universe.
It's not simply random andchaotic, and if I am to believe
(11:33):
that, then I have to believethat things happen when they're
supposed to and how they'resupposed to.
So I feel like everyone isalways arriving into leather at
exactly the right time.
If they'd done it earlier itwould have been a disaster.
If they'd done it later, itwouldn't have worked.
But I think we come to thiscommunity exactly when we're
(11:57):
supposed to, exactly how we'resupposed to, and then the
challenge is to take these richexperiences we're having as
leather people and grow ourspirit, our mind, our body of
experiences, our relationships,our connectedness, our
understanding of who we are,that we move into this not just
for the pleasure and wow, it hasa lot of pleasure not just for
(12:21):
the affirmation of who we areand, yes, that's important.
But we move into this becausethere are lessons to be learned
here in the leather community inkink.
There are lessons to be learnedhere.
We could not learn someplaceelse.
I really believe everythingserves our highest greatest good
.
That's not the same thing assaying everything is meant to
(12:44):
bring us to happiness.
Sometimes our highest greatestgood is about facing nearly
insurmountable challenges sothat we can gain new strength or
learn to draw help from others.
That's a very long-windedanswer, but it comes down to
this for anyone listening yes,take a break.
(13:04):
Yes, go work on yourself.
Yes, come back.
The leather community isn'tgoing anywhere.
There's a IML every year.
If you didn't make it this year, you can make the next one.
If IML stops.
Well, you know what?
There are a lot of otherleather events this community
has been going strong for, let'ssee, if we think mid-50s, 50s,
(13:26):
like 70 years, I'm pretty sureit's going to still be here if
you need to go do some work andcome back, and I hope that
offers not just you, charlie, Ihope it offers other listeners
some reassurance about where youare in your leather journey.
And now we have a question fromAustin.
Speaker 5 (13:46):
Hi Edge.
This is Austin.
He him from Houston, texas.
My question is what do youthink the role or responsibility
is of leather and kink as itpertains to the political sphere
, social justice and visibilityfor our community?
Do we have a responsibility tomake ourselves seen, heard and
to fight for our rights, orshould we just enjoy the sex of
(14:07):
it in the community, amongstothers, or is there a healthy
balance between the two?
Would love to hear your opinion.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
Thank you for everything that you do with the
show first of all, I am fairlycertain this is your second time
, at least sending in a question, austin, because I'm I'm pretty
sure last time I was so wishingyou were Austin from Austin and
not Austin from Houston.
That's how I remember Speakingof.
(14:33):
I will be in Houston for theGlue Leather Weekend in just
about a month.
I believe it's October 10, 11,12, something like that.
So I hope, if you're attending,you will come up to me and say
hello, it'd be great to meet you.
As for your question, I wouldfirst broaden it that we don't
(14:53):
need to be asking the role ofthe leather community in
activism political activism,social justice but simply the
role of each of us, no matterhow we identify, no matter where
we are positioned in thecommunity, outside the community
.
What is the role of people inpolitical activism, social
(15:13):
justice, visibility, and I wouldsay I'm a big believer that
people should be politicallyactive for whatever politics
they choose to engage.
I try to remain fairly, I tryto create space in my world for
(15:34):
people whose politics are verydifferent from me, politics that
I may not even really agree onand that can be challenging, of
course, but I think if we leaninto the democratic process.
If we lean into rationalconversation and critical
thinking, then there's space foreveryone.
And so I would encourageeveryone, no matter what your
(15:55):
politics is, no matter how youfeel about the phrase social
justice, to be active in theworld, because I think what's
more dangerous is when weacquiesce and we become
apathetic.
And trust me, I am Gen X.
We originated apathy.
That was sort of the X part ofGen X.
(16:16):
We were seen to be extremelyapathetic.
Turned out we weren't, but thatwas the impression.
So the first thing I would doin response to your question is
say hey, everyone, everyone, notjust leather folk everyone
needs to engage in politicalprocesses to whatever level
they're able, Because a lot ofyour ability to engage in these
(16:38):
processes has to do with theamount of privilege you carry.
If you are a person of color,that your engagement with
political processes and let'ssay you're a leather person of
color right.
Each vector of oppression weadd in doesn't just add in a
(16:59):
linear sense, it adds in a sensethat we can't really predict,
but each vector of oppressionadds in to increase the risk to
you when you become politicallyactive, even as it becomes that
much more important for you tobe politically active.
You know, except for thequeerness, I'm sort of sitting
pretty on top of the privilegehierarchy, and I am cis, I am
(17:24):
white, I am firmly upper middleclass, I am able-bodied, I have
a little bit of pretty privilegeat least.
I live in an urban center, Ilive in a western country.
I'm really in a place where Ican do things like make videos
on Twitter, make podcasts, whichis for me a form of political
(17:46):
activism by creating educationand entry points for others who
want to join this community.
So the first answer is everyoneshould be politically active.
The second qualifier is to theextent they're able, based on
the amount of privilege theyhave and basically, the more
privilege you have, the more youare able to be politically
(18:08):
active.
Hopefully you are beingpolitically active for those who
have less privilege, who are atgreater risk of physical,
financial, political, socialharm if they try to be
politically active.
So the third answer is I wantto pick up on that term.
You said visibility.
I do necessarily, absolutelybelieve that simply walking
(18:33):
through the world as a leatherperson in gear is a form of
political activism.
So every time I go out to thebar, every time I go to an event
, every time after the bar Istop at the grocery store and
I'm still in leather.
Those are moments of politicalactivism because it is my way of
letting the world around meknow that I exist.
(18:55):
Now, obviously, even with allthe privilege I have because
I've got the queerness and thatsort of blunts, the cap of my
privilege Obviously being inleather in public spaces can be
risky.
You know there are people whoget gay bashed.
You can imagine what happens topeople in leather.
(19:15):
In fact, I believe the nightthat Backstreet was closing in
London there was a sort of queerleather bashing of some patrons
.
So yeah, it is an extremepolitical statement to be
visible in public in leather,but one not without risk.
And again, the more privilegeyou carry, the less risk.
(19:38):
But it's never going to bewithout risk, and that's why I
think it contributes to notionsof political activism broadly
taken.
Beyond that, obviously they'recoming for us.
They are coming for us andwe're not probably their first
(20:02):
target.
They've already targeted otherkinds of sexual, gender,
political minorities.
If we think about the wavesupon waves of legislation
banning gender-affirminghealthcare, if we think about
the assault on women's rightsand control over their own
(20:24):
bodies, do not for a momentthink that ends there.
Do not for a moment think thatwe won't be next.
So, yes, I think it isimportant for us to be visible
and to be more broadlypolitically active as much as
possible, not just for leathercauses, but for all these other
(20:46):
causes, all the dominoes thatstand before us.
We want to keep them standingbefore we too fall.
That being said, I also lovethat you talked about striking a
balance, because at a certainpoint, if leather's not fun,
there's not really a lot ofreason to do it.
It's got to be pleasurable foryou and for others.
(21:09):
So it's about figuring outwhere the moments are to be
politically active and where themoments are to simply have a
fantastic scene and a lot ofgreat sex.
A lot of those are contextdependent, based on space and,
again, based on privilege.
So, yeah, if you're in yourplayroom, it is not the time to
(21:30):
be thinking about politicalactivism.
If you are in a pride parade,that's probably the time to be
thinking about politicalactivism.
I do think it's possible tobalance.
And it's not even less aboutbalance.
It's about being aware of whenyour action has an opportunity
to shift something.
Legislation opportunity toshift something.
(21:56):
Legislation someone's vote,someone's opinion, and
understanding that those shiftscome with risk.
I know that's in some ways kindof a non-answer.
I feel like I've played all thecards to try to win every
position, but this really iswhere I stand.
I have a lot of privilege.
I try to create entry pointsfor people in the community.
(22:16):
I try to have a lot ofvisibility, both in public
spaces, locally, but also invirtual spaces, as a way of
letting people know that peoplelike me exist, as a way of
creating these aspirationalpoints for people who may come
across an image of me and say,oh, that's who I want to be.
I still have fun.
I have a lot of fun.
(22:36):
My life is in all politics, butI'm super aware of the
fragility of our existence interms of political rights, and I
do my own kind of old-fashionedpolitical activism that isn't
necessarily about leather, it'snot necessarily.
I mean, it's really hard to pusha leather agenda in politics
right now, but those alliedcauses, those dominoes that
(22:59):
stand before our domino, areplaces where I can do
interventions, where I cancontribute to political
organizations or candidates whoI think are going to help change
the system, to secure otherpeople's rights gender, sexual
minorities.
If I secure their rights, thenI have a nice chance of securing
my own.
(23:20):
Not the best answer, but it isan honest one.
And now we have a question fromHowie.
Speaker 6 (23:28):
Hi Leather Edge.
This is Howie from San Jose,california.
I was listening to your recentpodcast about books and at the
end of it you were talking aboutthe fact that there were no
real good written books aboutold guard leather lifestyle and
(23:49):
I just happened to run acrossfrom Mascular Living as a new
magazine, new publication, anarticle called Living an Old
Guard Lifestyle by Master Lupus,and I wanted to make sure that
you were aware of it and getyour thoughts on it you're aware
(24:15):
of it and get your thoughts onit.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
Howie, thank you so much for directing me to that
article.
I was unaware of it.
For listeners who are curious,you could do a simple web search
, as I did for Masculine Living,and locate that article.
As for what I thought of it,this is part of what's
fascinating about Old Guard.
First, I think I'm going toassert I'm fairly, almost
(24:38):
positive, I'm sure about thisthat those people in that
article are not Old Guard in thesense of Old Guard, what we
mean when we say Old Guard.
Here's what I mean.
First of all, they're in Italyand, as far as we know, the old
guard as we conceive of it was aparticularly American
(24:58):
phenomenon, driven by post WorldWar II veterans and their
motorcycles.
The second thing is one of themI think one of the masters, or
it's a very complicatedhierarchy, but one of them has
only been I shouldn't say onlyhas been in the scene for 16
years.
So it is entirely possible therewas a unbroken chain between
(25:25):
some old guard unit in Americathat came into being in the 50s
and passed on its knowledge andtraditions and at some point it
leapt over the ocean and waspassed on to these people and
that they are embodying acontinuous, unbroken chain of
knowledge.
I don't think that's likely.
(25:46):
And I don't think it's likelyfor a number of reasons.
First of all, the HIV pandemicreally devastated the queer
community and therefore also thequeer leather community, and
that would have meant a seriousdisruption in the ability to
transmit cultural knowledge.
So it would have taken someonemaking that leap across the
(26:11):
pandemic in good health and it'snot impossible.
But I know that we lost morethan I know how to count Well,
not that I know how to count.
More than I can count arepeople we lost.
And then the second thing is wealways want to press against
(26:36):
gently and interrogate thisnotion of quote, unquote the old
guard, as though there was asingle set of knowledge,
traditions, rituals that wouldhave been passed on person to
person from the beginning to now, person to person from the
beginning to now.
I think what the article isreally useful for is showing how
some leather people choose torespect and honor the old guard
(27:06):
by doing their very best to livewhat they believe the old guard
was.
So it's not that this leatherfamily is old guard in the sense
of, oh, they're old guard, theyare the OG literally.
(27:26):
I don't know that that's true,I could be wrong, and if one of
them is listening to thispodcast, I would certainly love
to do an interview and find outmore about how this knowledge
from America in the 50s reachedItaly in the 20s of the next
millennium.
Not impossible, I just feellike it's unlikely.
(27:49):
I just feel like it's unlikely.
But it is a beautiful example ofhow so many of us yearn for and
therefore reinvent the oldguard, that we take elements
that we know were there.
For example, we know a lot ofthem were military veterans.
We know that they were used tohierarchies of power and
(28:12):
discipline and rules andregulations.
That's all part of militarylife.
So if we yearn for the oldguard, if we want to honor and
respect our ancestors, I willsay, then we do our best to
recreate what we believe theywere like, what they were
actually like.
We have fragmented knowledge.
We have a lot of belief of whatthey are like.
(28:35):
So I find the articleinspirational in that it
provides a model for people whoare deeply into protocol, who
deeply identify with what wethink of as the old guard and
want to align their leather lifewith their understanding of the
(28:58):
old guard as closely aspossible and it's beautiful for
that.
That is very different fromsaying it is an accurate
representation of the old guard.
It is an accuraterepresentation of the old guard.
I will continue to insist thatwe have very, very few.
I know maybe a speech GuyBaldwin gave I think actually he
(29:22):
wrote an article in response toa book that came out with some
controversy where he talkedabout the old guard.
We have the essay in LeatherFolk.
We have Hardy Haberman, I think, has a piece in reaction to
this notion of the coveringceremony.
So we have some writtenresponses.
(29:44):
We have some written memories ofpeople who we can demonstrably
say were part of the old gardenof you.
But I don't know that we have.
We don't have a handbook.
I promise you that we don'thave a guidebook.
We don't have a list of rules,we don't have an accurate sense
(30:06):
of how they lived their lives ona daily basis.
That is not at all to dismissthose who live in accordance
with their conception of whatthe old guard would be.
I think there's somethingbeautiful about it because I do
feel it's almost this sacredancestor respect slash worship
(30:27):
in the best sense of ancestorworship.
I think there's something verysacred about it and I think it's
very indicative of a broadhunger in the community for
knowing what to do, forstructure and order and
direction and knowledge.
So it is beautiful for what itis.
But what it is is not, Isuspect, the old guard as we
(30:53):
think of the old guard.
When we say the old guard, ifany of you know some resources
that are verifiably original OG,old guard, the OG, og from 50s,
60s into the 70s, you knowthings started shifting
(31:13):
post-Stonewall because that'swhen you get this sort of
opening up of leather bars thatyou know anyone can walk into a
leather bar, and that's when youget the clone look of the 70s.
So there was a kind ofimitation of hyper-masculinity
that would have echoed parts ofthe old guard.
So I think we've got about a20-year period, let's say, where
(31:35):
we're talking about old guard,as we think of old guard, when
we think of old guard who I'mgoing to call the OG, og and I
don't know that we have a lotwritten from there and if I'm
wrong, if you've been to theLeather Archives, I should also
add leather archives.
(31:57):
I should also add I never,never, never say anything on
here.
That is the exact fact.
Truth.
The only thing I'm ever sharingon this podcast is what I know.
My knowledge is limited.
It's limited but it's not small.
I've been doing this for 30years.
I know a lot of major figuresin the community.
I grew up really immersed in animportant part of the leather
(32:19):
community in New York, so it'snot like I don't know anything.
I'm not making this up, but Ialso need to admit that I don't
know everything, and so I relyon other people to point out
where I may be missing someknowledge.
And that's why, howie, I'm sograteful for your question, for
pointing me to that resource,because I think it's an
(32:39):
important resource and I thinkit's an important illustration
for people who want to createtheir own instantiation of the
old guard.
Wow, man, this episode's a lotharder than I thought because a
lot of these questions in someways are delicate and require me
(32:59):
to.
You know, I don't have a scripthere, right, I'm just sort of
speaking off the top of my headand the sort of mental
gymnastics I'm doing to addressthe question have a sense of
what's true.
To address the question, have asense of what's true, making
sure I don't say somethingoffensive.
It's complicated, that's allI'm going to say.
(33:23):
But hey, with that, let's moveon to our last question, and
that is from Arthur, whoactually submitted it twice
because he wanted better audioclarity, and I certainly
appreciate that hey edge, thisis arthur.
Speaker 4 (33:33):
First off, I just wanted to thank you for your um
production of these podcastepisodes.
I'm a bit of a sporadiclistener, um, but they certainly
made my early morning flightsto and from a day at the
corporate office yesterday muchmore interesting.
Um, I guess I do have aquestion, because a lot of the
(33:57):
discussions so far have beenaround sort of old guard, but
then you've got these influencesof quite young kinksters coming
on as your guests and interviewhosts and they talk a lot about
the intersectionality of kinkand fetish.
They talk a lot about theintersectionality of kink and
fetish and I was wondering ifyou had seen any distinct maybe
aesthetics or communities withinthe leather world developing
(34:21):
alongside sort of the moreclassic military from America or
Europe and doesn't have thedeep histories and the the
military side, and then I guessin America it's the motorcycle
(34:44):
club side.
I was wondering if there wasinfluences from other parts of
the world that are creating sortof a new or different aesthetic
within the leather world.
Speaker 1 (34:56):
This is a great question and I think you're
really asking two questions.
And the first question I hearyou asking is what are some new,
distinct aesthetics that arenot from the biker world?
And then the second questionI'm hearing is what is the
global, non-Western influence onleather?
(35:17):
Where does leather exist thatisn't simply a recreation of
sort of an American notion ofthe leather person?
So, in terms of emergingaesthetics, the thing I'm seeing
at events, here's what happened.
I went to IML and I'm walkingthrough the host hotel and I see
(35:38):
someone dressed like an ogre,in a kind of cosplay ogre look,
and I was so effing happybecause that person felt safe
enough and comfortable enough tobe in a very and talk about
(35:59):
very motorcycle uniform.
Military like IML is the theepicenter of that kind of
conception of what leathershould be.
But here's someone who wasdrawing from the gaming
community, who was drawing fromcosplay community, who is
drawing a little bit from thesort of furry slash
(36:21):
transformation community, and Ithought that was just amazing
and fantastic, because I dothink the other, the big strain
I see that is not military, thatis not police, that is not
biker is coming from nerdsbeautiful, delicious, glorious
(36:42):
nerds.
And I have many, many, manynerds in my orbit.
I think I can say that Almosteveryone in my orbit I'm trying
to think in my kinky orbitalmost everyone in a kind of
romantic kind of way.
Right, the various boys whoorbit me, they're all either
(37:05):
gamers or Dungeons and Dragonsplayers, or into anime, or
probably all three, and thatsort of nerd factor is shaping
an aesthetic and we see that inthe strong emergence of the
furry community.
We see that in the strongemergence of cosplay.
(37:27):
Cosplay is kind of I mean,cosplay is like IML with less
sex.
I assume I don't know therecould be a lot of sex in cosplay
events.
I don't know, but these arepeople who have a kind of fetish
.
Maybe it's not sexual, Maybe itis, but they have a kind of
fetish with a particularcharacter from a universe and
(37:53):
they dress that character ofthis nerd aesthetic, this nerd
aesthetic proudly claiming spacein the center of the classic,
old fashioned, the old leatheraesthetic that we know.
(38:17):
The other place I see thishappening a lot is in rubber
communities.
I have a friend who went to MIR, which is sort of the IML of
rubber, and he had done an earthbender outfit from Avatar and
the Last Airbender right, One ofmy favorite animated series.
He did an entire earth benderthing in rubber and that's the
(38:44):
thing about rubber in general,the rubber community.
Yes, you can get a rubberuniform yes, you can.
But the primary aesthetic ofrubber is more something else.
I think often it draws fromcloser to science fiction than
it does to military communities.
(39:05):
So I think you need to look atthese young people, you need to
look at the nerds, because theyare bringing their nerd
interests into leather and youneed to look at the rubber folk
because they've always had adifferent set of references for
their aesthetic and these thingsare all merging and churning
and merging and churning.
(39:28):
The other thing I think I seeemerging is a lot of people who
are doing there's a big increasein vegan leather, sort of
eco-friendly kink.
In fact I thought abouteventually I would love to do a
whole episode on eco kink.
But when you look at Mr Regalio, who is a really great retailer
(39:54):
, and really, if you look attheir site, they are very
clearly geared towards a youngermarket with a lot of their
styling and fashion choices andthey have a whole line of vegan
leather.
Pretty sure I saw even Mr S hassome stuff that's vegan leather
(40:14):
.
I might be making that one up,but increasingly you have these
people who are vegan or choosingnot to do traditional leather.
Now, a lot of times that endsup being fashioned like
traditional leather.
But I do think the whole shiftaway from leather leather to
alternative materials representsa different kind of influence.
And then there are just peoplewho there's also oh goodness,
(40:39):
yeah, I'm seeing a lot of genderfuck going on.
I'm seeing a lot of.
There are men I really respectwho are walking around in
stilettos, thigh-high stilettosand corsets and just sort of
living their best life.
So that comes from this sort ofdevelopment of broadened
understandings of gender andgender categories and gender
(41:02):
identities.
So I do think there areactually a number of places
where we're seeing newaesthetics, and that includes
the nerds, the rubberists andthe vegans and oh goodness, I
just said it, what was the lastone?
And that last one I talkedabout?
The second part of your questionis also very interesting.
It's very clear that leather isa primarily Western phenomenon,
(41:25):
so it's very popular in theWest, across Europe, in the
United States, in Canada, andthen it gets a little more
complicated.
There's certainly lots ofleather in Latin and South
America, but I also know there'sa lot of struggle for
visibility and community in someof those countries as well.
(41:48):
And then when we move to theEast, if we think about China
and we think about Japanactually Japan probably has a
huge kinky community.
I would imagine it does becomemore complicated and I think the
aesthetic shifts as well.
It does become more complicatedand I think the aesthetic
shifts as well, Although JapanJapan's the exception, right,
Because they really look totheir post-World War experience
(42:10):
was looking to the US again,Like.
My understanding is thatLanglitz's biggest market is
Japan.
I might be making that up,Maybe it's Wesco's biggest
market, but the point is thatI'm pretty sure the Japanese
leather aesthetic is probablyvery Western.
The other thing that I think isinteresting well, there are a
couple of things that areinteresting.
First, I do have listeners tothis podcast on every single
(42:34):
continent except Antarctica.
I'm still waiting for my kinkyAntarctic researcher to
listening to my podcast so thatI can finally get all the
continents, but that suggeststhat there are people who are
interested in these topicseverywhere.
I will also say that myexperience on Instagram in
particular is that there are alot of men in the sort of South
(42:56):
Asian and Middle Easterncommunities who have a strong
interest in leather but are thenfacing extra challenges in
exploring it because of cultural, social and legal restrictions.
But I get a lot of people fromIndia, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia,
(43:17):
Lebanon, Syria, this whole area.
I will also say my understandingis that Thailand has a really
vibrant kink community.
I forget how I found that out,but I found it out somehow, or I
don't think I'm making it up,I'm pretty sure that's true.
The takeaway there is.
In response to the twoquestions I heard, the first was
(43:41):
sort of like okay, what otheraesthetics are coming besides
this military one?
And the second is what else isgoing on besides this sort of
Western phenomenon?
There are places in the worldthat are struggling to create
king communities that face morechallenges, that have greater
restrictions on civil liberties,political liberties, sexual
(44:03):
liberties, and also might facedifferent kind of economic
challenges, and that can makecommunity hard.
The truth is, community is kindof hard everywhere.
I talked to a lot of people inthe United States who don't
think there's a lot of community, and I mean people in New York,
people in Chicago, people whojust struggle to find their
(44:25):
place, and so I don't know that.
I mean, that's a whole notherepisode.
So, to answer your question, Ithink there are places around
the world that are exploringkink in ways that are going to
look very different from the waywe do it in the West.
And then, although there areplaces around the world that
(44:45):
also kind of look to the Westfor their aesthetic but if you
want to know where's theaesthetic, I'm tired of.
I don't have a militarybackground.
I don't come from a countrywith a big military presence.
We're not all about the guns,like you crazy Americans.
Where do I look?
Look to the nerds.
I think that's your best betbecause they are blazing a trail
(45:06):
into the community and takingit in fantastic new directions.
I think that answered yourquestion, arthur.
If it did not, please query meagain.
I'd be absolutely delighted toprovide you more responses on
your next flight to corporate HQ.
And that's what we have forthis all-ask episode of Full Cow
(45:30):
.
I would like to invite all ofyou again to send in questions
you don't have to but I get sodelighted hearing from all of
you, and everyone always asksthe most interesting thought
provoking stuff, you know,because it's weeks between.
Like people will send mequestions tomorrow and I'm not
(45:51):
going to record an episode forweeks and weeks and weeks, Right
.
So so I spent a lot of timesitting with the questions
thinking about how I mightrespond, and so I value your
contributions, not only becauseI think it makes better content
for all the other listeners.
I value because you get methinking and reflecting about
what I believe, what I value andwhat I have to share with all
(46:14):
of you.
Speaker 2 (46:15):
So think about it Once again.
Speaker 1 (46:17):
you can email me a question at ask at full cow dot
show.
And that's perfectly fine.
I will read your question onair.
However, it's even better, ifyou feel safe enough, leaving a
voicemail for me at speakpipecomslash leather edge.
(46:37):
That's speakpipecom slashL-T-H-R-E-D-G-E.
Thank all of you.
Thanks to all of you forjoining me for another episode.
I don't take it for grantedthat you take approximately 47
minutes out of your day to shareit with me.
I'm very grateful for that.
I'm wishing all of you, all ofyou, a tremendously blessed
(47:02):
leather journey Until next time.
And that's it for this episode.
Thank you so much for joiningme.
Please consider subscribing, oryou can send feedback to edge
at full cow dot show.
As always, may your leatherjourney be blessed.
Let's Ask EDGE that you are an adult.
Welcome to Full Cow, a podcastabout leather kink and BDSM.
(00:42):
My name is Edge, my pronounsare he, him, and I'm your host,
and we have a super specialepisode for you this time, and
it's something I always kind ofhoped would happen and it
finally did.
I finally got enough questionsfrom all of you to do an entire
(01:04):
episode just answering yourquestions.
I think this is excitingbecause you get lots of
different topics, because youget to hear lots of different
voices, because we're going tovisit lots of different spots in
the world of Leather King andBDSM.
So I want to invite all of youto send in more questions so
(01:26):
that I can do this again.
Perhaps sometimes, assuming youlike this episode, you can send
your questions by email to askat fullcalshow or, even better,
leave me a voicemail atspeakpipecom slash leatheredge
L-T-H-R-E-D-G-E.
(01:46):
That's speakpipecom slashleatheredge, and both those
links are available in the shownotes, so no need to take memory
or special note, you can simplygo click on it and send in your
questions about anything.
They don't have to be deep, theydon't have to be profound.
If you want to know more aboutme, I'm pretty much an open book
(02:09):
, as I think this podcastillustrates, so I'm very excited
for this show.
This is probably one of theepisodes I'm most excited for
and I say let's get started.
Let's get started.
Our first question comes fromChaste, florida.
Speaker 3 (02:29):
Guy Hi Edge, I'm a fellow Chastity enthusiast and
myself own the Ovation Orion andspend a significant amount of
time in it.
Thank you so much for yourpodcast.
It's nice to hear theexperience of a fellow locked
boy and what we deal with.
(02:49):
So anyway, I also live in FortLauderdale and it would be great
to actually meet you and chatin person sometime.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
Well, hello there.
Yes, we have been chatting onTwitter and trying to coordinate
some schedules and finally meet, and I think I love this
question because it reallypoints to the importance of
connections.
And with chastity, yes,especially you don't just want a
(03:19):
keyholder, because a keyholdershould be someone who is
supportive and working with youthrough your challenges with
chastity.
But that is also a very powerkind of dynamic.
Knowing other people who alsoenjoy being locked and I
consider myself not a locked boybut a locked man Knowing other
(03:39):
people who also enjoy beinglocked and connecting with them
can give you a kind ofcamaraderie that you don't
necessarily get with a keyholder, and this isn't simply
about chastity.
I often think some of the mostpowerful groups I've seen are
small circles of boys who arevery good friends, because,
(04:03):
let's face it, it is really hardto find a counterpart, find a
daddy, find a mistress, find awhatever you need, or to find a
key holder.
That's really hard.
And so having people who arelooking for the same thing and
understanding you're not incompetition with them, you are
(04:26):
in allegiance with them, youhave the same needs it provides
not only a sense of supportwhile you're searching, but it
also offers you a kind of groupthat can check potential suitors
and really help you look forred flags, that can offer you
advice in complicated situations, who can celebrate your
(04:50):
victories but also console youin your sorrows.
So I am hoping to connect withyou and I will be following up
to work on that, and I encourageall of you to look for others
like you not your counterpart,but others who are also dog girl
(05:11):
slave, however you identifybecause that horizontal
camaraderie can offer you wisdomand support wisdom and support.
I'll also point out that mychastity journey hasn't really
exactly started yet.
If you've listened to thepodcast with some regularity,
(05:33):
you know that I did get theEvotion Orion custom and I had
some fit issues.
They corrected those, but Ihaven't had the time and space
in my world to dedicate toreally making a go of it and I'm
not yet convinced that I gotthe rest of the measurements
right.
So there may be someadjustments yet to come.
(05:53):
I actually have on my to-dolist for Saturday to try
everything back on and give it ago.
Now, as always with chastity,it's not simply I'm going to
lock myself and throw away thekey no I'm going to spend an
hour in it.
See how that feels.
I'm going to the next day,spend a few hours, eventually
try to spend the whole day.
(06:13):
Do some important things likego to the gym in it, go to work
in it.
I slowly build up to beinglocked overnight and once I've
done that then I can just repeatthat every single day and stay
as locked for as long as I want.
So I will continue to updateall of you on my chastity
journey.
I will connect with ChasteFlorida Guy, and I will invite
(06:37):
all of you to look for networksof others like you to provide
support and comfort and hope andinspiration and experience and
wisdom and everything.
Sorry, our next question isfrom Charlie.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
Edge.
This is Charlie.
We worked together about twoand a half years ago and you
mentored me through some reallyimportant initial steps of my
belated leather journey.
I went to claw because of you.
I did a very powerful thirdstep of self-acceptance.
Because of you, because of yourhelp and the notion that I
(07:19):
could think of submission as anessential gift, a divine gift
like musical talent.
Anyway, I've had to step awayto do some other inner work for
about a year.
I'm finding myself ready tostep back in, possibly in a more
committed way.
(07:40):
And my question is how oftendoes that happen where?
And my question is how oftendoes that happen where a leather
man has to step out of thatidentity for a time in order to
return to it more strongly?
Speaker 1 (07:53):
Thanks, yes, charlie, actually I think he hunted me
down on Twitter and kind ofhounded me into being his
leather life coach and I reallyenjoyed it and that was
enjoyable work for me.
It's actually made me thinkabout getting some official life
(08:14):
coach kind of training andoffering leather life coaching
as a service.
But to get to your question,charlie, it is extremely common
to step away from leather forsome period of time,
particularly for people of ourgeneration, people of a certain
age, shall we say, and let'scall it later ages.
(08:38):
We'll just put that verypolitely.
As we grow older, we do haveaccess to more resources that
allow us to go to leather events, allow us to buy more gear.
However, many of us findourselves as caretakers for
ailing parents or caretakers foran ailing partner or dealing
(09:00):
with serious health issues ofour own.
So I know a lot of people whohave stepped away for some
period of time to cope withwhatever else is going on in
life and then have returned.
It is perfectly normal.
You have not lost anything.
(09:23):
You can move back into thecommunity, perhaps with better
navigation skills than when youleft.
I myself did this when I wasfirst getting sober.
I took about a year off fromleather.
I just put it mentally andpretty much physically on the
shelf and didn't do anythingwith it because I wanted to
(09:45):
focus on getting sober, makingsure I had that foundation.
And I also understood that Ihad to look very closely whether
or not a leather life was goingto be compatible with a sober
life and if it came to a choicebetween the two, I knew I was
going to have to choose sobrietyto a choice between the two.
(10:06):
I knew I was going to have tochoose sobriety.
Fortunately, I didn't have tomake that choice.
I stepped away.
I got my foundation in whatworked for me, which was 12-step
recovery, and then I came backto leather and I navigated it
even better thanks to the work Ihad done on myself, and that
was when I was in my mid-30s.
So it's not even necessarily aquestion of what happens when
(10:27):
you get older and people aroundyou are experiencing health
issues or you're experiencingthem.
It can happen even earlier inlife and I certainly know
several people in the rooms ofrecovery who take time off from
leather to sort things out andto figure out what behaviors
remain healthy for themselves.
(10:48):
So the takeaway here foreveryone you know I get a lot of
, I run into a lot of people whofeel like they started late or
they're running out of time orsome sense of missing out on
their leather journey, and Idon't want to dismiss those
(11:10):
claims.
Those feelings are perfectlyvalid, of course, and I've been
super blessed that I've had avery long and fairly consistent
leather journey.
But in my heart I do believethat there is some sort of
greater plan for us, some sortof arrangement in the universe.
It's not simply random andchaotic, and if I am to believe
(11:33):
that, then I have to believethat things happen when they're
supposed to and how they'resupposed to.
So I feel like everyone isalways arriving into leather at
exactly the right time.
If they'd done it earlier itwould have been a disaster.
If they'd done it later, itwouldn't have worked.
But I think we come to thiscommunity exactly when we're
(11:57):
supposed to, exactly how we'resupposed to, and then the
challenge is to take these richexperiences we're having as
leather people and grow ourspirit, our mind, our body of
experiences, our relationships,our connectedness, our
understanding of who we are,that we move into this not just
for the pleasure and wow, it hasa lot of pleasure not just for
(12:21):
the affirmation of who we areand, yes, that's important.
But we move into this becausethere are lessons to be learned
here in the leather community inkink.
There are lessons to be learnedhere.
We could not learn someplaceelse.
I really believe everythingserves our highest greatest good
.
That's not the same thing assaying everything is meant to
(12:44):
bring us to happiness.
Sometimes our highest greatestgood is about facing nearly
insurmountable challenges sothat we can gain new strength or
learn to draw help from others.
That's a very long-windedanswer, but it comes down to
this for anyone listening yes,take a break.
(13:04):
Yes, go work on yourself.
Yes, come back.
The leather community isn'tgoing anywhere.
There's a IML every year.
If you didn't make it this year, you can make the next one.
If IML stops.
Well, you know what?
There are a lot of otherleather events this community
has been going strong for, let'ssee, if we think mid-50s, 50s,
(13:26):
like 70 years, I'm pretty sureit's going to still be here if
you need to go do some work andcome back, and I hope that
offers not just you, charlie, Ihope it offers other listeners
some reassurance about where youare in your leather journey.
And now we have a question fromAustin.
Speaker 5 (13:46):
Hi Edge.
This is Austin.
He him from Houston, texas.
My question is what do youthink the role or responsibility
is of leather and kink as itpertains to the political sphere
, social justice and visibilityfor our community?
Do we have a responsibility tomake ourselves seen, heard and
to fight for our rights, orshould we just enjoy the sex of
(14:07):
it in the community, amongstothers, or is there a healthy
balance between the two?
Would love to hear your opinion.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
Thank you for everything that you do with the
show first of all, I am fairlycertain this is your second time
, at least sending in a question, austin, because I'm I'm pretty
sure last time I was so wishingyou were Austin from Austin and
not Austin from Houston.
That's how I remember Speakingof.
(14:33):
I will be in Houston for theGlue Leather Weekend in just
about a month.
I believe it's October 10, 11,12, something like that.
So I hope, if you're attending,you will come up to me and say
hello, it'd be great to meet you.
As for your question, I wouldfirst broaden it that we don't
(14:53):
need to be asking the role ofthe leather community in
activism political activism,social justice but simply the
role of each of us, no matterhow we identify, no matter where
we are positioned in thecommunity, outside the community
.
What is the role of people inpolitical activism, social
(15:13):
justice, visibility, and I wouldsay I'm a big believer that
people should be politicallyactive for whatever politics
they choose to engage.
I try to remain fairly, I tryto create space in my world for
(15:34):
people whose politics are verydifferent from me, politics that
I may not even really agree onand that can be challenging, of
course, but I think if we leaninto the democratic process.
If we lean into rationalconversation and critical
thinking, then there's space foreveryone.
And so I would encourageeveryone, no matter what your
(15:55):
politics is, no matter how youfeel about the phrase social
justice, to be active in theworld, because I think what's
more dangerous is when weacquiesce and we become
apathetic.
And trust me, I am Gen X.
We originated apathy.
That was sort of the X part ofGen X.
(16:16):
We were seen to be extremelyapathetic.
Turned out we weren't, but thatwas the impression.
So the first thing I would doin response to your question is
say hey, everyone, everyone, notjust leather folk everyone
needs to engage in politicalprocesses to whatever level
they're able, Because a lot ofyour ability to engage in these
(16:38):
processes has to do with theamount of privilege you carry.
If you are a person of color,that your engagement with
political processes and let'ssay you're a leather person of
color right.
Each vector of oppression weadd in doesn't just add in a
(16:59):
linear sense, it adds in a sensethat we can't really predict,
but each vector of oppressionadds in to increase the risk to
you when you become politicallyactive, even as it becomes that
much more important for you tobe politically active.
You know, except for thequeerness, I'm sort of sitting
pretty on top of the privilegehierarchy, and I am cis, I am
(17:24):
white, I am firmly upper middleclass, I am able-bodied, I have
a little bit of pretty privilegeat least.
I live in an urban center, Ilive in a western country.
I'm really in a place where Ican do things like make videos
on Twitter, make podcasts, whichis for me a form of political
(17:46):
activism by creating educationand entry points for others who
want to join this community.
So the first answer is everyoneshould be politically active.
The second qualifier is to theextent they're able, based on
the amount of privilege theyhave and basically, the more
privilege you have, the more youare able to be politically
(18:08):
active.
Hopefully you are beingpolitically active for those who
have less privilege, who are atgreater risk of physical,
financial, political, socialharm if they try to be
politically active.
So the third answer is I wantto pick up on that term.
You said visibility.
I do necessarily, absolutelybelieve that simply walking
(18:33):
through the world as a leatherperson in gear is a form of
political activism.
So every time I go out to thebar, every time I go to an event
, every time after the bar Istop at the grocery store and
I'm still in leather.
Those are moments of politicalactivism because it is my way of
letting the world around meknow that I exist.
(18:55):
Now, obviously, even with allthe privilege I have because
I've got the queerness and thatsort of blunts, the cap of my
privilege Obviously being inleather in public spaces can be
risky.
You know there are people whoget gay bashed.
You can imagine what happens topeople in leather.
(19:15):
In fact, I believe the nightthat Backstreet was closing in
London there was a sort of queerleather bashing of some patrons
.
So yeah, it is an extremepolitical statement to be
visible in public in leather,but one not without risk.
And again, the more privilegeyou carry, the less risk.
(19:38):
But it's never going to bewithout risk, and that's why I
think it contributes to notionsof political activism broadly
taken.
Beyond that, obviously they'recoming for us.
They are coming for us andwe're not probably their first
(20:02):
target.
They've already targeted otherkinds of sexual, gender,
political minorities.
If we think about the wavesupon waves of legislation
banning gender-affirminghealthcare, if we think about
the assault on women's rightsand control over their own
(20:24):
bodies, do not for a momentthink that ends there.
Do not for a moment think thatwe won't be next.
So, yes, I think it isimportant for us to be visible
and to be more broadlypolitically active as much as
possible, not just for leathercauses, but for all these other
(20:46):
causes, all the dominoes thatstand before us.
We want to keep them standingbefore we too fall.
That being said, I also lovethat you talked about striking a
balance, because at a certainpoint, if leather's not fun,
there's not really a lot ofreason to do it.
It's got to be pleasurable foryou and for others.
(21:09):
So it's about figuring outwhere the moments are to be
politically active and where themoments are to simply have a
fantastic scene and a lot ofgreat sex.
A lot of those are contextdependent, based on space and,
again, based on privilege.
So, yeah, if you're in yourplayroom, it is not the time to
(21:30):
be thinking about politicalactivism.
If you are in a pride parade,that's probably the time to be
thinking about politicalactivism.
I do think it's possible tobalance.
And it's not even less aboutbalance.
It's about being aware of whenyour action has an opportunity
to shift something.
Legislation opportunity toshift something.
(21:56):
Legislation someone's vote,someone's opinion, and
understanding that those shiftscome with risk.
I know that's in some ways kindof a non-answer.
I feel like I've played all thecards to try to win every
position, but this really iswhere I stand.
I have a lot of privilege.
I try to create entry pointsfor people in the community.
(22:16):
I try to have a lot ofvisibility, both in public
spaces, locally, but also invirtual spaces, as a way of
letting people know that peoplelike me exist, as a way of
creating these aspirationalpoints for people who may come
across an image of me and say,oh, that's who I want to be.
I still have fun.
I have a lot of fun.
(22:36):
My life is in all politics, butI'm super aware of the
fragility of our existence interms of political rights, and I
do my own kind of old-fashionedpolitical activism that isn't
necessarily about leather, it'snot necessarily.
I mean, it's really hard to pusha leather agenda in politics
right now, but those alliedcauses, those dominoes that
(22:59):
stand before our domino, areplaces where I can do
interventions, where I cancontribute to political
organizations or candidates whoI think are going to help change
the system, to secure otherpeople's rights gender, sexual
minorities.
If I secure their rights, thenI have a nice chance of securing
my own.
(23:20):
Not the best answer, but it isan honest one.
And now we have a question fromHowie.
Speaker 6 (23:28):
Hi Leather Edge.
This is Howie from San Jose,california.
I was listening to your recentpodcast about books and at the
end of it you were talking aboutthe fact that there were no
real good written books aboutold guard leather lifestyle and
(23:49):
I just happened to run acrossfrom Mascular Living as a new
magazine, new publication, anarticle called Living an Old
Guard Lifestyle by Master Lupus,and I wanted to make sure that
you were aware of it and getyour thoughts on it you're aware
(24:15):
of it and get your thoughts onit.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
Howie, thank you so much for directing me to that
article.
I was unaware of it.
For listeners who are curious,you could do a simple web search
, as I did for Masculine Living,and locate that article.
As for what I thought of it,this is part of what's
fascinating about Old Guard.
First, I think I'm going toassert I'm fairly, almost
(24:38):
positive, I'm sure about thisthat those people in that
article are not Old Guard in thesense of Old Guard, what we
mean when we say Old Guard.
Here's what I mean.
First of all, they're in Italyand, as far as we know, the old
guard as we conceive of it was aparticularly American
(24:58):
phenomenon, driven by post WorldWar II veterans and their
motorcycles.
The second thing is one of themI think one of the masters, or
it's a very complicatedhierarchy, but one of them has
only been I shouldn't say onlyhas been in the scene for 16
years.
So it is entirely possible therewas a unbroken chain between
(25:25):
some old guard unit in Americathat came into being in the 50s
and passed on its knowledge andtraditions and at some point it
leapt over the ocean and waspassed on to these people and
that they are embodying acontinuous, unbroken chain of
knowledge.
I don't think that's likely.
(25:46):
And I don't think it's likelyfor a number of reasons.
First of all, the HIV pandemicreally devastated the queer
community and therefore also thequeer leather community, and
that would have meant a seriousdisruption in the ability to
transmit cultural knowledge.
So it would have taken someonemaking that leap across the
(26:11):
pandemic in good health and it'snot impossible.
But I know that we lost morethan I know how to count Well,
not that I know how to count.
More than I can count arepeople we lost.
And then the second thing is wealways want to press against
(26:36):
gently and interrogate thisnotion of quote, unquote the old
guard, as though there was asingle set of knowledge,
traditions, rituals that wouldhave been passed on person to
person from the beginning to now, person to person from the
beginning to now.
I think what the article isreally useful for is showing how
some leather people choose torespect and honor the old guard
(27:06):
by doing their very best to livewhat they believe the old guard
was.
So it's not that this leatherfamily is old guard in the sense
of, oh, they're old guard, theyare the OG literally.
(27:26):
I don't know that that's true,I could be wrong, and if one of
them is listening to thispodcast, I would certainly love
to do an interview and find outmore about how this knowledge
from America in the 50s reachedItaly in the 20s of the next
millennium.
Not impossible, I just feellike it's unlikely.
(27:49):
I just feel like it's unlikely.
But it is a beautiful example ofhow so many of us yearn for and
therefore reinvent the oldguard, that we take elements
that we know were there.
For example, we know a lot ofthem were military veterans.
We know that they were used tohierarchies of power and
(28:12):
discipline and rules andregulations.
That's all part of militarylife.
So if we yearn for the oldguard, if we want to honor and
respect our ancestors, I willsay, then we do our best to
recreate what we believe theywere like, what they were
actually like.
We have fragmented knowledge.
We have a lot of belief of whatthey are like.
(28:35):
So I find the articleinspirational in that it
provides a model for people whoare deeply into protocol, who
deeply identify with what wethink of as the old guard and
want to align their leather lifewith their understanding of the
(28:58):
old guard as closely aspossible and it's beautiful for
that.
That is very different fromsaying it is an accurate
representation of the old guard.
It is an accuraterepresentation of the old guard.
I will continue to insist thatwe have very, very few.
I know maybe a speech GuyBaldwin gave I think actually he
(29:22):
wrote an article in response toa book that came out with some
controversy where he talkedabout the old guard.
We have the essay in LeatherFolk.
We have Hardy Haberman, I think, has a piece in reaction to
this notion of the coveringceremony.
So we have some writtenresponses.
(29:44):
We have some written memories ofpeople who we can demonstrably
say were part of the old gardenof you.
But I don't know that we have.
We don't have a handbook.
I promise you that we don'thave a guidebook.
We don't have a list of rules,we don't have an accurate sense
(30:06):
of how they lived their lives ona daily basis.
That is not at all to dismissthose who live in accordance
with their conception of whatthe old guard would be.
I think there's somethingbeautiful about it because I do
feel it's almost this sacredancestor respect slash worship
(30:27):
in the best sense of ancestorworship.
I think there's something verysacred about it and I think it's
very indicative of a broadhunger in the community for
knowing what to do, forstructure and order and
direction and knowledge.
So it is beautiful for what itis.
But what it is is not, Isuspect, the old guard as we
(30:53):
think of the old guard.
When we say the old guard, ifany of you know some resources
that are verifiably original OG,old guard, the OG, og from 50s,
60s into the 70s, you knowthings started shifting
(31:13):
post-Stonewall because that'swhen you get this sort of
opening up of leather bars thatyou know anyone can walk into a
leather bar, and that's when youget the clone look of the 70s.
So there was a kind ofimitation of hyper-masculinity
that would have echoed parts ofthe old guard.
So I think we've got about a20-year period, let's say, where
(31:35):
we're talking about old guard,as we think of old guard, when
we think of old guard who I'mgoing to call the OG, og and I
don't know that we have a lotwritten from there and if I'm
wrong, if you've been to theLeather Archives, I should also
add leather archives.
(31:57):
I should also add I never,never, never say anything on
here.
That is the exact fact.
Truth.
The only thing I'm ever sharingon this podcast is what I know.
My knowledge is limited.
It's limited but it's not small.
I've been doing this for 30years.
I know a lot of major figuresin the community.
I grew up really immersed in animportant part of the leather
(32:19):
community in New York, so it'snot like I don't know anything.
I'm not making this up, but Ialso need to admit that I don't
know everything, and so I relyon other people to point out
where I may be missing someknowledge.
And that's why, howie, I'm sograteful for your question, for
pointing me to that resource,because I think it's an
(32:39):
important resource and I thinkit's an important illustration
for people who want to createtheir own instantiation of the
old guard.
Wow, man, this episode's a lotharder than I thought because a
lot of these questions in someways are delicate and require me
(32:59):
to.
You know, I don't have a scripthere, right, I'm just sort of
speaking off the top of my headand the sort of mental
gymnastics I'm doing to addressthe question have a sense of
what's true.
To address the question, have asense of what's true, making
sure I don't say somethingoffensive.
It's complicated, that's allI'm going to say.
(33:23):
But hey, with that, let's moveon to our last question, and
that is from Arthur, whoactually submitted it twice
because he wanted better audioclarity, and I certainly
appreciate that hey edge, thisis arthur.
Speaker 4 (33:33):
First off, I just wanted to thank you for your um
production of these podcastepisodes.
I'm a bit of a sporadiclistener, um, but they certainly
made my early morning flightsto and from a day at the
corporate office yesterday muchmore interesting.
Um, I guess I do have aquestion, because a lot of the
(33:57):
discussions so far have beenaround sort of old guard, but
then you've got these influencesof quite young kinksters coming
on as your guests and interviewhosts and they talk a lot about
the intersectionality of kinkand fetish.
They talk a lot about theintersectionality of kink and
fetish and I was wondering ifyou had seen any distinct maybe
aesthetics or communities withinthe leather world developing
(34:21):
alongside sort of the moreclassic military from America or
Europe and doesn't have thedeep histories and the the
military side, and then I guessin America it's the motorcycle
(34:44):
club side.
I was wondering if there wasinfluences from other parts of
the world that are creating sortof a new or different aesthetic
within the leather world.
Speaker 1 (34:56):
This is a great question and I think you're
really asking two questions.
And the first question I hearyou asking is what are some new,
distinct aesthetics that arenot from the biker world?
And then the second questionI'm hearing is what is the
global, non-Western influence onleather?
(35:17):
Where does leather exist thatisn't simply a recreation of
sort of an American notion ofthe leather person?
So, in terms of emergingaesthetics, the thing I'm seeing
at events, here's what happened.
I went to IML and I'm walkingthrough the host hotel and I see
(35:38):
someone dressed like an ogre,in a kind of cosplay ogre look,
and I was so effing happybecause that person felt safe
enough and comfortable enough tobe in a very and talk about
(35:59):
very motorcycle uniform.
Military like IML is the theepicenter of that kind of
conception of what leathershould be.
But here's someone who wasdrawing from the gaming
community, who was drawing fromcosplay community, who is
drawing a little bit from thesort of furry slash
(36:21):
transformation community, and Ithought that was just amazing
and fantastic, because I dothink the other, the big strain
I see that is not military, thatis not police, that is not
biker is coming from nerdsbeautiful, delicious, glorious
(36:42):
nerds.
And I have many, many, manynerds in my orbit.
I think I can say that Almosteveryone in my orbit I'm trying
to think in my kinky orbitalmost everyone in a kind of
romantic kind of way.
Right, the various boys whoorbit me, they're all either
(37:05):
gamers or Dungeons and Dragonsplayers, or into anime, or
probably all three, and thatsort of nerd factor is shaping
an aesthetic and we see that inthe strong emergence of the
furry community.
We see that in the strongemergence of cosplay.
(37:27):
Cosplay is kind of I mean,cosplay is like IML with less
sex.
I assume I don't know therecould be a lot of sex in cosplay
events.
I don't know, but these arepeople who have a kind of fetish
.
Maybe it's not sexual, Maybe itis, but they have a kind of
fetish with a particularcharacter from a universe and
(37:53):
they dress that character ofthis nerd aesthetic, this nerd
aesthetic proudly claiming spacein the center of the classic,
old fashioned, the old leatheraesthetic that we know.
(38:17):
The other place I see thishappening a lot is in rubber
communities.
I have a friend who went to MIR, which is sort of the IML of
rubber, and he had done an earthbender outfit from Avatar and
the Last Airbender right, One ofmy favorite animated series.
He did an entire earth benderthing in rubber and that's the
(38:44):
thing about rubber in general,the rubber community.
Yes, you can get a rubberuniform yes, you can.
But the primary aesthetic ofrubber is more something else.
I think often it draws fromcloser to science fiction than
it does to military communities.
(39:05):
So I think you need to look atthese young people, you need to
look at the nerds, because theyare bringing their nerd
interests into leather and youneed to look at the rubber folk
because they've always had adifferent set of references for
their aesthetic and these thingsare all merging and churning
and merging and churning.
(39:28):
The other thing I think I seeemerging is a lot of people who
are doing there's a big increasein vegan leather, sort of
eco-friendly kink.
In fact I thought abouteventually I would love to do a
whole episode on eco kink.
But when you look at Mr Regalio, who is a really great retailer
(39:54):
, and really, if you look attheir site, they are very
clearly geared towards a youngermarket with a lot of their
styling and fashion choices andthey have a whole line of vegan
leather.
Pretty sure I saw even Mr S hassome stuff that's vegan leather
(40:14):
.
I might be making that one up,but increasingly you have these
people who are vegan or choosingnot to do traditional leather.
Now, a lot of times that endsup being fashioned like
traditional leather.
But I do think the whole shiftaway from leather leather to
alternative materials representsa different kind of influence.
And then there are just peoplewho there's also oh goodness,
(40:39):
yeah, I'm seeing a lot of genderfuck going on.
I'm seeing a lot of.
There are men I really respectwho are walking around in
stilettos, thigh-high stilettosand corsets and just sort of
living their best life.
So that comes from this sort ofdevelopment of broadened
understandings of gender andgender categories and gender
(41:02):
identities.
So I do think there areactually a number of places
where we're seeing newaesthetics, and that includes
the nerds, the rubberists andthe vegans and oh goodness, I
just said it, what was the lastone?
And that last one I talkedabout?
The second part of your questionis also very interesting.
It's very clear that leather isa primarily Western phenomenon,
(41:25):
so it's very popular in theWest, across Europe, in the
United States, in Canada, andthen it gets a little more
complicated.
There's certainly lots ofleather in Latin and South
America, but I also know there'sa lot of struggle for
visibility and community in someof those countries as well.
(41:48):
And then when we move to theEast, if we think about China
and we think about Japanactually Japan probably has a
huge kinky community.
I would imagine it does becomemore complicated and I think the
aesthetic shifts as well.
It does become more complicatedand I think the aesthetic
shifts as well, Although JapanJapan's the exception, right,
Because they really look totheir post-World War experience
(42:10):
was looking to the US again,Like.
My understanding is thatLanglitz's biggest market is
Japan.
I might be making that up,Maybe it's Wesco's biggest
market, but the point is thatI'm pretty sure the Japanese
leather aesthetic is probablyvery Western.
The other thing that I think isinteresting well, there are a
couple of things that areinteresting.
First, I do have listeners tothis podcast on every single
(42:34):
continent except Antarctica.
I'm still waiting for my kinkyAntarctic researcher to
listening to my podcast so thatI can finally get all the
continents, but that suggeststhat there are people who are
interested in these topicseverywhere.
I will also say that myexperience on Instagram in
particular is that there are alot of men in the sort of South
(42:56):
Asian and Middle Easterncommunities who have a strong
interest in leather but are thenfacing extra challenges in
exploring it because of cultural, social and legal restrictions.
But I get a lot of people fromIndia, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia,
(43:17):
Lebanon, Syria, this whole area.
I will also say my understandingis that Thailand has a really
vibrant kink community.
I forget how I found that out,but I found it out somehow, or I
don't think I'm making it up,I'm pretty sure that's true.
The takeaway there is.
In response to the twoquestions I heard, the first was
(43:41):
sort of like okay, what otheraesthetics are coming besides
this military one?
And the second is what else isgoing on besides this sort of
Western phenomenon?
There are places in the worldthat are struggling to create
king communities that face morechallenges, that have greater
restrictions on civil liberties,political liberties, sexual
(44:03):
liberties, and also might facedifferent kind of economic
challenges, and that can makecommunity hard.
The truth is, community is kindof hard everywhere.
I talked to a lot of people inthe United States who don't
think there's a lot of community, and I mean people in New York,
people in Chicago, people whojust struggle to find their
(44:25):
place, and so I don't know that.
I mean, that's a whole notherepisode.
So, to answer your question, Ithink there are places around
the world that are exploringkink in ways that are going to
look very different from the waywe do it in the West.
And then, although there areplaces around the world that
(44:45):
also kind of look to the Westfor their aesthetic but if you
want to know where's theaesthetic, I'm tired of.
I don't have a militarybackground.
I don't come from a countrywith a big military presence.
We're not all about the guns,like you crazy Americans.
Where do I look?
Look to the nerds.
I think that's your best betbecause they are blazing a trail
(45:06):
into the community and takingit in fantastic new directions.
I think that answered yourquestion, arthur.
If it did not, please query meagain.
I'd be absolutely delighted toprovide you more responses on
your next flight to corporate HQ.
And that's what we have forthis all-ask episode of Full Cow
(45:30):
.
I would like to invite all ofyou again to send in questions
you don't have to but I get sodelighted hearing from all of
you, and everyone always asksthe most interesting thought
provoking stuff, you know,because it's weeks between.
Like people will send mequestions tomorrow and I'm not
(45:51):
going to record an episode forweeks and weeks and weeks, Right
.
So so I spent a lot of timesitting with the questions
thinking about how I mightrespond, and so I value your
contributions, not only becauseI think it makes better content
for all the other listeners.
I value because you get methinking and reflecting about
what I believe, what I value andwhat I have to share with all
(46:14):
of you.
Speaker 2 (46:15):
So think about it Once again.
Speaker 1 (46:17):
you can email me a question at ask at full cow dot
show.
And that's perfectly fine.
I will read your question onair.
However, it's even better, ifyou feel safe enough, leaving a
voicemail for me at speakpipecomslash leather edge.
(46:37):
That's speakpipecom slashL-T-H-R-E-D-G-E.
Thank all of you.
Thanks to all of you forjoining me for another episode.
I don't take it for grantedthat you take approximately 47
minutes out of your day to shareit with me.
I'm very grateful for that.
I'm wishing all of you, all ofyou, a tremendously blessed
(47:02):
leather journey Until next time.
And that's it for this episode.
Thank you so much for joiningme.
Please consider subscribing, oryou can send feedback to edge
at full cow dot show.
As always, may your leatherjourney be blessed.
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