August 2, 2024 • 41 mins
https://a.co/d/6V4QCQqWelcome to Full Cow, a podcast about leather and kink where your host, Edge (he/him), shares his 30+ years of experience in the community. In this episode we look at Leather / Kink / BDSM books—both fiction and nonfiction. There’s also an Ask Edge segment about monogamy.
Here are some links from this episode:
- Carney, William. The Real Thing. 1968.
- Townsend, Larry. The Leatherman’s Handbook II. 1995.
- Preston, John. Mr. Benson. 1980.
- Mains, Geoff. Urban Aboriginals. 1984.
- Califia, Patrick. Macho Sluts. 1988.
- Thompson, Mark.
Ask Edge! Go to https://www.speakpipe.com/LTHREDGE to leave ask a question or leave feedback. Find Edge's other content on Instagram
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Let's talk about books that you are an adult.
Welcome to Full Cow, a podcastabout leather, kink and BDSM.
My name is Edge, my pronounsare he, him, and I am your host.
In this episode we're thinkingabout books about leather and
(00:50):
BDSM, with a focus on gayleather BDSM, primarily because
that's where my experience andmy reading has been.
You know, before we hadpodcasts and blogs and YouTube
videos and TikTok videos and allof that.
The community transmitted a lotof knowledge through writing,
(01:11):
through books, and we're goingto think about some of the most
important books about this topic, things that you may want to
read and explore, or at leastthings you may want to have
heard of, so that you can fillout your knowledge of the
history of our community as away of deepening your presence
in it.
We're also going to have aquestion for the Ask Edge
(01:34):
segment and I'm kind of excitedabout this episode, so let's
give it a go.
Some of the books I'm going tobe discussing I have read, some
I have not, but I know and trustand I'm hoping that some of you
will consider reading some ofthese.
(01:54):
I know actually people wholisten to podcasts or people who
also listen to audiobooks insome of these.
In fact, some of these are onlyavailable as audiobooks.
I think one of the takeawaysfrom today's episode is how much
(02:16):
of our written history is goingout of print.
Some of these books you can'tfind anymore, and that's pretty
sad right, but some of them youcan.
So let's start at the verybeginning.
Very good place to start.
The first book I would recommendis called the Real Thing by
William Carney.
This is a novel, but it is anepistolary novel, and what's
(02:37):
really special about it is thatit was published in 1968.
1968.
That means before the StonewallRiots, before the gay rights
movement, back at a time whenthere would have been serious
repercussions for being gay, letalone kinky.
This is also an interestingnovel because it's an epistolary
(03:01):
novel, which means it is aseries of letters where you kind
of piece together what theother person wrote back, based
on what the letter is saying.
It's about a kinky leather manwho is sort of educating his
nephew, I believe.
Don't quote me on that.
Everyone is always wanting toknow about the old guard.
(03:21):
Well, guess what?
If we're talking about the1960s, we are still talking
about the old guard, and what'sreally interesting about this
novel are the parts that yourecognize and that resonate and
that are still present in thecommunity, as well as the parts
that seem different and foreignand are no longer part of the
(03:42):
community and foreign and are nolonger part of the community.
The history of the novel, thehistory in the novel, is really
actually more interesting thanthe novel itself.
This is really hard to find.
It's mostly out of print.
If you search used book sites,you're still going to be paying
hundreds of dollars for thisnovel.
But should you ever run acrossit, I recommend grabbing it
(04:06):
because it is hard to find, andvoraciously consuming it.
I don't know if any librarieswould have it.
That's a good question.
We should think about that.
Check your local library, seeif they can get a copy.
The second book is the firstbook I read that was connected
to Leather, kink and BDSM.
(04:26):
That is the Leatherman'sHandbook.
I read the Leatherman'sHandbook 2, which was published
in 1995, but the original waspublished in 1972 by Larry
Townsend.
This for me, the second edition, 1995,.
It was this miraculous oasis ofa resource, because at that
(04:48):
point I was very, very early inmy leather journey and I knew
nothing.
I knew nothing but suddenly Ihad this resource that included
really practical sort ofknowledge but also these sort of
pornographic interludes.
So it was a source of learningand a source of masturbatory
(05:13):
pleasure to find the copy of theLeatherman's Handbook 2 listed
on Amazon.
It is listed at $2,640.56.
If you go searching some of theused book websites you can find
(05:35):
it a little cheaper, but Idon't have my copy anymore.
I deeply regret that I nolonger have my copy.
I have heard of a couple peoplewho have copies.
If you can find this, youabsolutely must grab it as a
beautiful historical documentand as something both practical
and deeply erotic.
Ps, if you haven't noticed yetand you will pick up on this,
(05:57):
I'm just sort of going inchronological order so that
we'll get a sense of what bookscame out and what they meant to
us.
Speaking of books that meansomething to us, the next one
we're going to talk about is MrBenson, which is a novel by John
(06:24):
Preston.
It is a romance novel of aslave finding his perfect master
.
Actually, it ends up being theperfect slave finding the
perfect master and it followsthe classic marriage plot.
So in the 19th century, likegreat big Victorian novels, the
marriage plot is man finds woman, man loses woman, man gets
(06:45):
woman, or woman finds man, womanloses man, woman gets man.
So not to give away the ending,but slave finds master, slave
loses master, slave gets master.
What's interesting about this isthe extraordinary popularity it
had at the time.
It was originally serialized inDrummer magazine, which was one
(07:06):
of the core magazines of ourcommunity, and the story goes
that men would be lining up atthe newsstand to get the new
issue of Drummer so they couldread the next installment of the
novel.
It creates a kind of patternthat infiltrated our
understanding of what kinkyrelationships should be in ways
(07:28):
that are both good and bad.
It's also so fascinating.
You know, when I was coming outinto leather in the 90s, I
don't remember there being pupsLike in my historical sense of
my lived experience, pups wererecently new phenomenon.
Well, no, there's a pup in MrBenson and that's from the very
(07:50):
early 80s and you have toactually imagine he's writing it
in the late 70s if it getspublished in whole in 1980.
Parts of it are just absolutelyludicrous because you know it's
porn essentially.
But the story was so compellingthat I think in fact one of the
(08:12):
books we're going to talk aboutlater has a whole essay about
how we're looking for Mr Benson.
The next book is a work ofnonfiction and it's one of the
first books to reallyphilosophize or bring a
thoughtful aspect to thecommunity, and that is Jeff
Mainz's book, urban Aboriginals.
Now, this was published in 1984, and part of what it does is
(08:36):
connects the leather communityto tribal practices.
Now, looking at this decadeslater, that's not entirely
unproblematic if you think aboutthe very white male nature of
this community and the verycolonialist impulse to
appropriate tribal practices,tribal tropes.
(08:58):
But it's important in its placein our history as an attempt, a
published attempt, to helpunderstand who we are, what we
do, why we do what we do.
So I recommend reading it.
In fact I think it's still inprint.
I think it's pretty sure it'sstill in print.
Oh, and I'm going to have linksto Amazon for all of these
(09:21):
books that at least give you astarting point.
If you want to get the fulltitle publication information,
go digging for cheaper copies.
You have a starting point.
It's worth reading.
I feel like if you really wantto understand the history of our
community, I mean definitelyyou've got to read Mr Benson,
which is available as anaudiobook, and definitely you
have to read Urban Aboriginals.
(09:42):
The next book is a littleunusual because it is Macho
Sluts by Patrick Califia, who atthe time was Pat Califia, and
this is essentially a collectionof lesbian SM fiction.
However, there are two storiesin it.
One is called the SurpriseParty and the other is called
(10:07):
the Spoiler.
The Spoiler is one of the bestpieces of gay male erotic
fiction I've ever read and itinspired a lot of my erotic
fiction writing.
The Surprise Party is hotperiod, the surprise party is
(10:38):
hot period, h-o-t hot period andCalifia is really able to tap
into our psyche much.
But there was this notion thatSM was violence against women.
It was a reinstantiation ofpatriarchy.
We must reject all pornography.
We must reject all SM practicesand this is really speaking
(10:58):
back to that in powerful waysand representing lesbian SM
practices.
So it's both importanthistorically and important for
our community in those twostories.
I've read this book.
I love this book.
I've read the whole book.
The stories are a little uneven, some of them are better than
others, but the two stories thespoiler and surprise party are
(11:20):
exquisite.
It is a little hard to find butI do think you can find a used
copy.
The next book is anothernonfiction book and it is
Leather Folk, radical Sex People, politics and Practice, and
it's edited by Mark Thompson.
(11:42):
It is an.
This came out.
I was super excited for thisbecause of its visibility and
its representational status.
You're just existing as thisscared little leather boy in New
Orleans and then suddenly yougo to the bookstore and there's
a whole book that taps into thislarger community that you don't
(12:04):
currently have access to.
The essays are also a littleuneven, but the one I recommend
most is by Tom Magister and Iforget the title of it.
But the whole collection isbroken down into sections, so
there's one that sort of looksat spirituality, there's one
that looks at politics, butthere's one that looks at
(12:27):
history.
And the Tom Magister piece heis writing his experience of
initiation into the old guard.
Now again, everyone's like oh,old guard, this old guard that
we love, the old guard.
I want to know about the oldguard.
This is an actual chance tolearn about the old guard and we
don't have a lot of writtenrecords of the old guard.
(12:51):
William Carney, the Real Thingout of print.
Good luck.
Tom Magister's essay inLeatherfolk in print.
Give it a read.
The next book is from 1992.
It's also a nonfiction book andit is SM 101, a Realistic
Introduction by Jay Wiseman.
I have never read this one butI certainly heard about it a lot
(13:11):
and I would recommend itbecause I know Jay Wiseman is a
reputable name and I know thebook is reputable.
Similarly, the next book from1993, ties that Bind SM Leather,
fetish, erotic Style Issues,commentaries and Advice.
That's quite a title.
We just call it Ties that Bind,1993, guy Baldwin.
(13:33):
I've not read this.
However, guy Baldwin is animportant leader At the time.
Guy Baldwin was a veryimportant leader in the
community and he had really alot of good things to say.
So even though I haven't readthis one, I know it's by someone
reputable, someone importanthistorically, and that I suspect
(13:54):
it's a really good read.
I have read the next book, whichis Leather Sex by Joseph Bean,
published in 1994.
Full title is Leather Sex AGuide for the Curious Outsider
and the Serious Player.
Joseph was also an importantleader at that time in our
(14:15):
community and this is the book Irecommend as the introduction.
So when I run across people andthey're like, oh, I want to get
into leather, oh, I recommendas the introduction.
So when I run across people andthey're like oh, I want to get
into leather.
Oh, I'm really curious.
Oh, I need some resources If Ifind out that they're capable of
reading, because not everyonehas the sustained attention to
read anymore.
If they're capable of reading.
(14:35):
I always, always, alwaysrecommend Leathersex.
It is an excellent resource,still some 30 years later.
It covers some really practicalaspects of the scenes, but also
a lot of information on thedynamics of a scene, and I
probably say things all the timeabout dominance and submission
(14:58):
that probably originally camefrom this book.
That's how deeply it isembedded in my psyche.
That probably originally camefrom this book.
That's how deeply it isembedded in my psyche.
Curiously, I don't think I readit in 1994, but I have read it
since and I do recommend it allthe time.
Now we're back to fiction withCarried Away, an SM romance by
David Stein.
This was originally publishedin 2002, and I think there's a
(15:22):
second edition or a secondprinting.
I should say that's a littlemore available, but the original
is really hard to find.
The first printing is reallyhard to find.
I knew David Stein.
He was part of my world when Ilived in New Jersey.
I was actually in a writinggroup with him.
I spent a lot of time with himand his ex, who was my mentor.
(15:48):
I built a website for David.
He gave me a really exquisitepiece of art.
I was there when he was writingthis and it took him so long to
write this.
Part of his goal was to correctMr Benson this sort of fantasy
notion of what an SMrelationship would be, and he
(16:09):
wanted to really work out whatit would look like in real terms
, while still being an eroticnovel.
It is big, it is thick and youdon't even know he did so much
revision on it that it was asthough he had written the book
eight times over.
But you recommend it.
If you're into erotic fiction,if you want a novel that really
(16:32):
reflects us as a community andreflects a sense of what's
possible, then I recommend that.
The next book again I haven'tread, but is again by someone
important, and actually Irecommend this book a lot and
that is called SlavecraftRoadmaps for Erotic Servitude.
(16:53):
I'm pretty sure you know one ofthe things I tell the men,
submissive men in my orbit allthe time is that self-care is
service, that when you aretaking good care of your health,
when you are sleeping enough,when you are eating enough, when
you are putting your healthmental, physical, spiritual
(17:15):
health before me.
That's a way of service.
It is a service to me, becausethen you come to me to serve me
as a more healthy whole person.
I'm pretty sure this is aderivation of something that I
think is in this book,slavecraft, and that is that
rule number one is protect theproperty.
So for Baldwin, the first ruleof slavery is protect yourself
(17:39):
as a slave, and that meanstaking care of yourself.
That means knowing what yourboundaries are, and all of that.
I may be making all that up.
I don't think I am.
So you're more than welcome tocheck that out and to read
Slavecraft the next book Ihaven't read, but I know people
who have read it, and the reasonI haven't read it is it came
(18:01):
out in 2008.
By then I kind of kneweverything I needed to know, and
it is the Leather Boy Handbook.
This is the third edition isout now and it's by Vincent
Andrews.
I don't know a lot about thisexcept to say that I've heard it
enough to believe it isreputable and worth reading, so
I would recommend it.
You know I did a lot of writingmyself.
(18:23):
If you've listened to thepodcast extensively, then you've
probably run across a couple ofreadings of some of my stories.
I have collected all of thosestories into an anthology that
is published through Amazon inelectronic format only.
It's called the Stories of Edge.
It's actually really hard tofind if you just go searching by
(18:47):
the title, so I'm going toinclude a link to that in the
show notes, just if you'recurious.
When I write I haven't writtenin a long time because I ended
up getting a life and a job anda career and relationships but
when I was writing eroticfiction, oftentimes I was trying
to work out a problem in myhead around dominant submission,
(19:12):
kink relationships, and alwaysI was embedding historical and
cultural information andknowledge.
So if you read my stories andcultural information and
knowledge, so if you read mystories, there's very specific
references to certain bars or tocertain events and there are
very specific references notjust to boots but to Huesca
(19:33):
boots, not just to gloves but toDamascus gloves, so that they
provide a kind of living historyof experiences at that time,
both the places I'd go and thegear I was wearing.
Living history of experiencesat that time, both the places
I'd go and the gear I waswearing.
So it's an interestinghistorical document, like many
of these, in that it reallyencodes both cultural knowledge
and historical geographicalknowledge.
(19:54):
Now, the last two I'll talkabout aren't really about kink
per se.
They are both about polyamory.
However, there's a lot ofoverlap between polyamory and
our community and I suspect thatthese days a lot of people just
(20:14):
sort of jump into polyamory.
They wake up one day and theydecide to be polyamorous without
doing a lot of thoughtful,intentional work around
polyamory, and I believe thatfor me it has worked better when
I have done the thoughtful,intentional work around
(20:35):
polyamory.
And there are two books Irecommend for that.
The first is sort of theclassic, it's the Bible in some
ways of polyamory.
It came out a while ago.
I don't have publication dateson these because they're outside
my SM timeline.
The first book is the EthicalSlut by Janet Easton.
No, janet Hardy and DossieEaston, it's not hard to find,
(20:59):
just look for the Ethical Slut.
There are no other books calledthe Ethical Slut.
It's not hard to find, justlook for the Ethical Slut.
There are no other books calledthe Ethical Slut.
And I remember when I read it Iwas like, okay, well, a lot of
this, if you're gay is just sortof automatic knowledge because
so much of our community isreally about sexual experiences.
We are a sexual minority, so Ididn't find it super revelatory.
(21:22):
I did find some of the chapters.
There's a part on jealousywhich is really useful and it's
sort of, again, you're buildingfoundational knowledge, you're
kind of going back into historyto build that historical
knowledge.
And the second book I wouldrecommend is, I think, even
better, and that is polysecure.
That is one word by Eve Rickertand Nora Samaran and this is
(21:46):
sort of the updated version,updated approach to the ethical
slut.
Polysecure.
I think I mean all the great,all the A-list polyamorous are
reading Polysecure.
What Polysecure does is looksat polyamory through attachment
theory which comes out oftherapy, and in that I think
(22:08):
it's super duper useful.
It also provides a lot ofuseful vocabulary.
It moves away from ahierarchical nature of polyamory
, where you have a primaryrelationship and then secondary,
and really embraces this notionof polycule, where there's a
constellation of relationships.
It also gives you goodterminology, like solo, poly and
(22:30):
metamor, and I've had a couplepeople read it who found it
useful, not just because of theworkaround attachment theory but
because they've discovered ohwait, hey, as it turns out I'm
solo poly.
I'm not going to want thatnesting partner, and that's been
a revelation for them.
So there's also a workbook.
(22:51):
I don't think the workbook isquite as useful.
I started it and I'm like, oh,this is just not helping me.
Maybe that had to do with mycurrent experience with
polyamory or how far I've madethe journey, but if you're new
to polyamory, if you're thinkingabout polyamory, if you've
decided you're polyamorous, orif you're polyamorous but you've
never really kind of figuredout what exactly that means, I
(23:15):
recommend those two books.
As I'm recording this, I alsorealized there's a book that I
forgot, so I'm going to take ashort break and go find that
book and then come back, so I'llbe right back.
Oh hey, I'm back.
I finally found the book.
The book that I realized while Iwas talking about David Stein
(23:35):
is that he did an editedcollection called Ask the man
who Owns Him the Real Lives ofGay Masters and Slaves,
published in 2009 with DavidStein and David Schachter.
This is unfortunately out ofprint, at least on Amazon, but
perhaps if you scour some of theused book websites, you will
find it.
The remarkable thing about thisyou know we carry all these
(23:59):
fantasies of master-slave.
This is a book that is acollection of interviews with
actual masters and slaves andyou get to see what it's like to
live that, how do people wholive that do it, and you get to
see the sort of spectrum ofdynamics involved for all these
(24:21):
people who are masters andslaves in the real world 24-7.
So if you can find that book,if that's a kind of, if you want
a real 24-7 kink dynamic, Irecommend reading that as well,
and I don't have that on mybookshelf either, so I might
have to hunt down a used copymyself.
This list is not at allexhaustive.
(24:43):
What I did was went through mybookshelf first, thought about
books I had read growing up intoleather second, and did a
little bit of searching onAmazon to make sure I wasn't
missing anything.
There are a lot of other booksthat you might look at,
including books specificallyabout bondage.
There's a book by Naughty Boys.
(25:05):
There's Midori's Seductive Artof Japanese Bondage.
The problem is bondage inparticular is something better
learned through video where youcan see what they're doing.
I learned shibari throughMidori's book, and having to
translate the written word intothree-dimensional space was
really really, really hard.
(25:25):
So there are specific booksabout that.
Josephine also has a book aboutflogging, if you wanted to read
about that.
So there are a lot of otherhow-tos, but these are the ones
I've encountered on my path.
These are the ones I've heardof.
These are the ones I feel arehistorically important.
These are the ones I feel arehistorically important.
These are the ones I feel arehistorically important.
(25:47):
I'm going to end this segmentby emphasizing that there is no
book available that accuratelylooks at old guard protocols.
(26:10):
So you may want to be wary ofbooks about protocol, because I
can actually guarantee you thatavailable books on protocol are
not historically accurate.
They can be read as interestingpieces, but they are not
historically accurate.
(26:30):
That's all I'm going to say.
I think you'll find that usefuladvice as you go book shopping.
If there are books you know ofor you want to recommend, you're
more than welcome to email themto me through ask at
fullcowshow and I can share themin an interlude or a future
segment as an update to thissegment, and I hope you will
(26:51):
consider reading some of these.
Some of these will be hard toread because they're out of
print.
Some of these are not.
Some of these are available asaudiobooks.
Some of them are not.
I think if you're passionateabout this community and its
history, then you might alsoenjoy hunting down copies or
trying to see if there arebootleg PDFs out there on the
(27:14):
web, so that could be aninteresting journey as well, and
along the way, you might findwebsites that discuss other
books that you might find usefulin your journey.
For me, books were the thing.
Books were what I had.
I had books, I had magazinesand I had the people around me,
and they all served me very well.
And even though we've movedinto this digital era where more
(27:36):
information is available inmore ways in more places at any
time, even though we live inthat digital era, I think it's
worth picking up a book sometimeif you really want to ground
yourself in this community.
Not a requirement.
You can be a leather person,whether or not you've read any
of this, without a doubt, but Ithink it adds something when you
(28:02):
know who came before you andwhat they did to get here and
what they've contributed and how.
That is your inheritance andhow things you do, places you go
, are reflecting practices thattook place sometimes decades ago
.
But yeah, that's me.
(28:23):
I hope you enjoyed the bookdiscussion at least.
And yeah, thanks.
And now we have Ask Edge, thesegment where I answer questions
from all of you.
If you have a question, you cansend it to me at ask at full
(28:43):
cow dot show.
That's ask at full cow dot show.
Or, even better, you can leaveme a voicemail at speakpipecom
slash leather edge.
L-t-h-r-e-d-g-e.
That's speakpipecom slashleatheredge.
L-t-h-r-e-d-g-e.
That's speakpipecom slashleatheredge.
Those links are available inthe show notes.
And for this episode we haveone question from Leonard Hi
(29:08):
Edge.
I was wondering if you have anytips or practices to get into
the leather slash kink scene.
My partner and I would like toget more into the local scene
but are finding it difficult.
We are a monogamous couple andit seems that all events and
spaces are more welcoming topoly people.
What are some ways we can getinvolved and participate while
still keeping the integrity ofour relationship?
(29:31):
What an excellent question, andlet me start by saying that
monogamy is a valid relationshipchoice, as is polyamory, that
one does not take away from theother, and I think you're
absolutely right that as acommunity we are far more
inclined to polyamory, tocreating spaces for polyamorous
(29:54):
people and for being polyourselves.
There is a sense, particularlyin bar spaces and some event
spaces, where everyone'savailable.
Any man you look at, any personyou look at, is available for
your sexual desires.
You just need to seduce them,right?
Not true?
(30:14):
Not true?
The answer to your dilemmadepends, in part, on where
you're located.
Some local scenes have moredepth and more possibilities
than others.
However, here are and this isobviously a problem because we
are a sexual community and thatmeans we have a blurred line
(30:37):
between the community aspect andthe sexual aspect.
And being able to move yourselfmore firmly into community and
away from the sexual aspectwhile still being leather people
can be a little challenging.
I'll also say, before I getinto the answer you're not alone
.
I had a question from someonein the Atlanta area a while ago,
(31:04):
but they were also monogamous,so you're not alone.
The trick is going to be findingothers like you.
So the first tip I would giveyou, based on your local scene,
is to move away from sexualspaces to social spaces.
So here in Fort Lauderdale, forexample, we have a lot of sex
(31:26):
clubs, we have a couple of sexparties and we have two leather
bars.
All of those are going to besexual spaces, but we also have
something called the leatherfamily social dinner, which is
purely a social space.
We have classes taught byLeatherworks, which is purely a
social space.
We have a leather cocktailparty that rotates around
(31:49):
couples and their houses.
That is purely a social space.
So you want to be able to lookfor places where the sexual is
not foregrounded, so placeswhere there's likely to be less
cruising.
The second tip is related tothat, and that is, if those
spaces don't exist, you cancreate them.
(32:11):
You can host a leather dinnerparty for local couples who you
identify are monogamous orlikely to respect your monogamy.
That's what I will say and thenthat can become something that
grows and creates this sort ofcommunity around you that
creates connection for you andaround you.
(32:32):
So the first tip is look forsocial spaces, not sexual spaces
.
The second tip is, if there areno social spaces, make them.
And then the third tip isevents.
Now you said that the localevents are more welcoming to
poly people.
I would recommend some of thenational events, which I think
(32:55):
for me are less sexual.
If you think about somethinglike IML, I've always said IML
is what you make it.
So if you go to IML looking forsex, you can have all the sex
you want.
If you go there looking todance, you can have all the
dancing you want.
If you go there looking forsocial connection, that's what
you can have.
I rarely, if ever, functionthat's what you can have.
(33:21):
I rarely, if ever, play atevents.
But what I do is makeintentional plans with people I
want to meet and spend time with, and that's dinners, lunches,
breakfast, coffee.
Let's go shopping together soyou can control what the event
is for you.
And these are national eventsand that means broader base of
possibilities because so manypeople are attending.
As a corollary to that, oneevent that I might recommend is
(33:44):
Claw.
Claw has two flavors.
There's the classic Claw, whichis in April in Cleveland, and
then there's the new Claw, whichhas so many different names
Leather Getaway, I think they'recalling it Leather Thanksgiving
right now.
We still just call it LA Claw.
It's in Los Angeles and it'sover Thanksgiving.
(34:07):
The thing about the claws isthat they are heavily focused on
education.
That means two things.
First of all, it means that youcan go to these classes that
are not even if they're aboutsexual topics they're not
actually about having sex in theclass right, they are more
social educational spaces versusin LA, the giant 3000 square
(34:28):
foot dark room, which is clearlya sexual space.
The other thing is Claw'salways looking for educators and
all you need to do is emailthem and say, hey, I would like
to do a class on monogamy andkink, and they'd probably be
really eager for that, becausethey're usually looking for
presenters.
It's probably a topic no onehas ever presented and if you
(34:50):
present, you get a freeregistration.
Now you may not feel likeyou're qualified to teach, but
if you think of it more as apanel discussion or around the
room discussion or presentingyour experiences, what you're
going to do is you're going todraw people who are dealing with
monogamy and kink, and thatmeans you're going to draw
friends to you.
(35:10):
They will come to you, andmaybe it's only one person whose
husband is at home, maybe it'sa couple of couples, but that
becomes the start of creatingsocial networks that are not
sexual.
The only other general piece ofadvice and I'm sure you've
already tried this is to beexplicit about the boundaries of
(35:33):
your relationship and askpeople to respect them.
Again, I've said that if we'rein sexual spaces, we tend to
assume every person there isavailable to us if we have the
right goods, and sometimes weneed to be told that, no, some
people are not available to us,and there are analogs to this in
master-slave.
(35:54):
There's no expectation that ifsomeone is locked in a collar
with someone on a leash, there'sno expectation that they are
sexually available to you.
So as part of that, you mayalso consider, depending on the
specific dynamics of yourrelationship, if there's a way
for one of you to wear the otherperson's collar.
(36:15):
That is a way of broadlysignaling no, do not touch.
Now, that requires a certainkind of literacy in the
community.
I don't know if that'savailable by you.
Certainly, collars and theirmeanings have been diversified
lately, shall we say.
Some people just wear a collarbecause they want to wear a
collar.
(36:36):
Diversified lately, shall wesay, Some people just wear a
collar because they want to weara collar.
But classically I think itwould have been a way of saying
do not touch.
And in certain spaces it willremain a way of saying do not
touch, which is a way of settingboundaries from the outset, and
I feel like a collar is like awedding ring.
I don't just go around throwingcollars on people.
(36:57):
Okay, yeah, I do some playcollars, but I'm not collaring
someone unless that's theequivalent to marriage for me.
That's the level of commitmentand therefore it might be a way
of signaling.
Now, it may not actuallyreflect the dynamics of your
relationship and therefore itmay feel a little dishonest, so
you may not want to do it.
However, it is another optionfor you.
(37:27):
Ultimately, I think that as acommunity, we have so much we
need to look at so often Ouracceptance of trans people,
issues of equity and inclusionof BIPOC people and part of that
which is probably going to be alittle far down the line,
frankly, because it's a minority, minority Part of it is.
We need to look at the kind ofbias we have against monogamy,
(37:47):
and you are in a position tostart creating that conversation
by being who you are in spaces.
Oh goodness.
Another idea you know I don'tknow if you know about FetLife,
f-e-t-l-i-f-ecom.
I think of it as sort of likekinky Facebook.
It is filled with allsexualities, which means you'll
(38:11):
find a lot of heterosexualsthere.
You'll find some homosexualsthere, you'll find pansexuals.
You'll find a little bit ofeverything on FetLife.
That might be another placewhere you can begin to look for
community, because it's verysort of discussion board paced
and you could probably find somediscussion of monogamy or start
a discussion of monogamy,because it's great to say, be at
(38:34):
the local leather bar and havepeople not be hitting on you.
That is ideal.
But I think what's moreimportant is to locate sources
of connection that make you feelseen and valued as members of
the community and that areplaces of support and comfort as
you face challenges to yourmonogamy from the community.
(38:56):
And so a lot of times that canhappen more virtually through
things like FetLife, or it canhappen more irregularly through
things like going to an eventonce a year.
Of all those options, I mean,the one I really want to promote
for you is proposing a class onmonogamy and kink at CLAW.
(39:20):
I think it would be fantasticand it'd be really interesting
to see who showed up and alsowhat kind of response you got.
I don't think you'd get peoplewho were hostile, but that would
be curious.
I don't know if that makes itsound like a horrible experience
for you, but I think it'd begood class.
I think it'd be reallyimportant and educational.
So please consider it.
And then the other thing I'dreally think about is really
(39:42):
starting your own damn communityand having people over for
dinner in gear, or over fordrinks in gear, or over to watch
TV in gear People who you thinkalready know and respect the
boundaries of your relationshipas a way of starting an
alternate sub-community that isstrongly separated from sexual
(40:04):
spaces with a focus on thesocial.
Thank you for the question.
I want to encourage everyone toplease, please, please, send
questions.
They help me really make thispodcast better on so many
dimensions.
And that's it for this episode.
I'm so grateful that all of youhave given me some 40-odd
(40:26):
minutes of your time out of yourday and I hope your journey is
going really well Because, lordknows, it can be tough.
That's what this question isabout.
Right, this journey is tough.
It is tough and I know that,and it pains me because my
journey's been pretty easy.
So I'm hoping your journey,even if it's challenging, is
(40:48):
really really good.
And that's it for this episode.
Thank you so much for joiningme.
Please consider subscribing oryou can send feedback to edge at
full cow dot show, as always.
May your leather journey beblessed.
Let's talk about books that you are an adult.
Welcome to Full Cow, a podcastabout leather, kink and BDSM.
My name is Edge, my pronounsare he, him, and I am your host.
In this episode we're thinkingabout books about leather and
(00:50):
BDSM, with a focus on gayleather BDSM, primarily because
that's where my experience andmy reading has been.
You know, before we hadpodcasts and blogs and YouTube
videos and TikTok videos and allof that.
The community transmitted a lotof knowledge through writing,
(01:11):
through books, and we're goingto think about some of the most
important books about this topic, things that you may want to
read and explore, or at leastthings you may want to have
heard of, so that you can fillout your knowledge of the
history of our community as away of deepening your presence
in it.
We're also going to have aquestion for the Ask Edge
(01:34):
segment and I'm kind of excitedabout this episode, so let's
give it a go.
Some of the books I'm going tobe discussing I have read, some
I have not, but I know and trustand I'm hoping that some of you
will consider reading some ofthese.
(01:54):
I know actually people wholisten to podcasts or people who
also listen to audiobooks insome of these.
In fact, some of these are onlyavailable as audiobooks.
I think one of the takeawaysfrom today's episode is how much
(02:16):
of our written history is goingout of print.
Some of these books you can'tfind anymore, and that's pretty
sad right, but some of them youcan.
So let's start at the verybeginning.
Very good place to start.
The first book I would recommendis called the Real Thing by
William Carney.
This is a novel, but it is anepistolary novel, and what's
(02:37):
really special about it is thatit was published in 1968.
1968.
That means before the StonewallRiots, before the gay rights
movement, back at a time whenthere would have been serious
repercussions for being gay, letalone kinky.
This is also an interestingnovel because it's an epistolary
(03:01):
novel, which means it is aseries of letters where you kind
of piece together what theother person wrote back, based
on what the letter is saying.
It's about a kinky leather manwho is sort of educating his
nephew, I believe.
Don't quote me on that.
Everyone is always wanting toknow about the old guard.
(03:21):
Well, guess what?
If we're talking about the1960s, we are still talking
about the old guard, and what'sreally interesting about this
novel are the parts that yourecognize and that resonate and
that are still present in thecommunity, as well as the parts
that seem different and foreignand are no longer part of the
(03:42):
community and foreign and are nolonger part of the community.
The history of the novel, thehistory in the novel, is really
actually more interesting thanthe novel itself.
This is really hard to find.
It's mostly out of print.
If you search used book sites,you're still going to be paying
hundreds of dollars for thisnovel.
But should you ever run acrossit, I recommend grabbing it
(04:06):
because it is hard to find, andvoraciously consuming it.
I don't know if any librarieswould have it.
That's a good question.
We should think about that.
Check your local library, seeif they can get a copy.
The second book is the firstbook I read that was connected
to Leather, kink and BDSM.
(04:26):
That is the Leatherman'sHandbook.
I read the Leatherman'sHandbook 2, which was published
in 1995, but the original waspublished in 1972 by Larry
Townsend.
This for me, the second edition, 1995,.
It was this miraculous oasis ofa resource, because at that
(04:48):
point I was very, very early inmy leather journey and I knew
nothing.
I knew nothing but suddenly Ihad this resource that included
really practical sort ofknowledge but also these sort of
pornographic interludes.
So it was a source of learningand a source of masturbatory
(05:13):
pleasure to find the copy of theLeatherman's Handbook 2 listed
on Amazon.
It is listed at $2,640.56.
If you go searching some of theused book websites you can find
(05:35):
it a little cheaper, but Idon't have my copy anymore.
I deeply regret that I nolonger have my copy.
I have heard of a couple peoplewho have copies.
If you can find this, youabsolutely must grab it as a
beautiful historical documentand as something both practical
and deeply erotic.
Ps, if you haven't noticed yetand you will pick up on this,
(05:57):
I'm just sort of going inchronological order so that
we'll get a sense of what bookscame out and what they meant to
us.
Speaking of books that meansomething to us, the next one
we're going to talk about is MrBenson, which is a novel by John
(06:24):
Preston.
It is a romance novel of aslave finding his perfect master
.
Actually, it ends up being theperfect slave finding the
perfect master and it followsthe classic marriage plot.
So in the 19th century, likegreat big Victorian novels, the
marriage plot is man finds woman, man loses woman, man gets
(06:45):
woman, or woman finds man, womanloses man, woman gets man.
So not to give away the ending,but slave finds master, slave
loses master, slave gets master.
What's interesting about this isthe extraordinary popularity it
had at the time.
It was originally serialized inDrummer magazine, which was one
(07:06):
of the core magazines of ourcommunity, and the story goes
that men would be lining up atthe newsstand to get the new
issue of Drummer so they couldread the next installment of the
novel.
It creates a kind of patternthat infiltrated our
understanding of what kinkyrelationships should be in ways
(07:28):
that are both good and bad.
It's also so fascinating.
You know, when I was coming outinto leather in the 90s, I
don't remember there being pupsLike in my historical sense of
my lived experience, pups wererecently new phenomenon.
Well, no, there's a pup in MrBenson and that's from the very
(07:50):
early 80s and you have toactually imagine he's writing it
in the late 70s if it getspublished in whole in 1980.
Parts of it are just absolutelyludicrous because you know it's
porn essentially.
But the story was so compellingthat I think in fact one of the
(08:12):
books we're going to talk aboutlater has a whole essay about
how we're looking for Mr Benson.
The next book is a work ofnonfiction and it's one of the
first books to reallyphilosophize or bring a
thoughtful aspect to thecommunity, and that is Jeff
Mainz's book, urban Aboriginals.
Now, this was published in 1984, and part of what it does is
(08:36):
connects the leather communityto tribal practices.
Now, looking at this decadeslater, that's not entirely
unproblematic if you think aboutthe very white male nature of
this community and the verycolonialist impulse to
appropriate tribal practices,tribal tropes.
(08:58):
But it's important in its placein our history as an attempt, a
published attempt, to helpunderstand who we are, what we
do, why we do what we do.
So I recommend reading it.
In fact I think it's still inprint.
I think it's pretty sure it'sstill in print.
Oh, and I'm going to have linksto Amazon for all of these
(09:21):
books that at least give you astarting point.
If you want to get the fulltitle publication information,
go digging for cheaper copies.
You have a starting point.
It's worth reading.
I feel like if you really wantto understand the history of our
community, I mean definitelyyou've got to read Mr Benson,
which is available as anaudiobook, and definitely you
have to read Urban Aboriginals.
(09:42):
The next book is a littleunusual because it is Macho
Sluts by Patrick Califia, who atthe time was Pat Califia, and
this is essentially a collectionof lesbian SM fiction.
However, there are two storiesin it.
One is called the SurpriseParty and the other is called
(10:07):
the Spoiler.
The Spoiler is one of the bestpieces of gay male erotic
fiction I've ever read and itinspired a lot of my erotic
fiction writing.
The Surprise Party is hotperiod, the surprise party is
(10:38):
hot period, h-o-t hot period andCalifia is really able to tap
into our psyche much.
But there was this notion thatSM was violence against women.
It was a reinstantiation ofpatriarchy.
We must reject all pornography.
We must reject all SM practicesand this is really speaking
(10:58):
back to that in powerful waysand representing lesbian SM
practices.
So it's both importanthistorically and important for
our community in those twostories.
I've read this book.
I love this book.
I've read the whole book.
The stories are a little uneven, some of them are better than
others, but the two stories thespoiler and surprise party are
(11:20):
exquisite.
It is a little hard to find butI do think you can find a used
copy.
The next book is anothernonfiction book and it is
Leather Folk, radical Sex People, politics and Practice, and
it's edited by Mark Thompson.
(11:42):
It is an.
This came out.
I was super excited for thisbecause of its visibility and
its representational status.
You're just existing as thisscared little leather boy in New
Orleans and then suddenly yougo to the bookstore and there's
a whole book that taps into thislarger community that you don't
(12:04):
currently have access to.
The essays are also a littleuneven, but the one I recommend
most is by Tom Magister and Iforget the title of it.
But the whole collection isbroken down into sections, so
there's one that sort of looksat spirituality, there's one
that looks at politics, butthere's one that looks at
(12:27):
history.
And the Tom Magister piece heis writing his experience of
initiation into the old guard.
Now again, everyone's like oh,old guard, this old guard that
we love, the old guard.
I want to know about the oldguard.
This is an actual chance tolearn about the old guard and we
don't have a lot of writtenrecords of the old guard.
(12:51):
William Carney, the Real Thingout of print.
Good luck.
Tom Magister's essay inLeatherfolk in print.
Give it a read.
The next book is from 1992.
It's also a nonfiction book andit is SM 101, a Realistic
Introduction by Jay Wiseman.
I have never read this one butI certainly heard about it a lot
(13:11):
and I would recommend itbecause I know Jay Wiseman is a
reputable name and I know thebook is reputable.
Similarly, the next book from1993, ties that Bind SM Leather,
fetish, erotic Style Issues,commentaries and Advice.
That's quite a title.
We just call it Ties that Bind,1993, guy Baldwin.
(13:33):
I've not read this.
However, guy Baldwin is animportant leader At the time.
Guy Baldwin was a veryimportant leader in the
community and he had really alot of good things to say.
So even though I haven't readthis one, I know it's by someone
reputable, someone importanthistorically, and that I suspect
(13:54):
it's a really good read.
I have read the next book, whichis Leather Sex by Joseph Bean,
published in 1994.
Full title is Leather Sex AGuide for the Curious Outsider
and the Serious Player.
Joseph was also an importantleader at that time in our
(14:15):
community and this is the book Irecommend as the introduction.
So when I run across people andthey're like, oh, I want to get
into leather, oh, I recommendas the introduction.
So when I run across people andthey're like oh, I want to get
into leather.
Oh, I'm really curious.
Oh, I need some resources If Ifind out that they're capable of
reading, because not everyonehas the sustained attention to
read anymore.
If they're capable of reading.
(14:35):
I always, always, alwaysrecommend Leathersex.
It is an excellent resource,still some 30 years later.
It covers some really practicalaspects of the scenes, but also
a lot of information on thedynamics of a scene, and I
probably say things all the timeabout dominance and submission
(14:58):
that probably originally camefrom this book.
That's how deeply it isembedded in my psyche.
That probably originally camefrom this book.
That's how deeply it isembedded in my psyche.
Curiously, I don't think I readit in 1994, but I have read it
since and I do recommend it allthe time.
Now we're back to fiction withCarried Away, an SM romance by
David Stein.
This was originally publishedin 2002, and I think there's a
(15:22):
second edition or a secondprinting.
I should say that's a littlemore available, but the original
is really hard to find.
The first printing is reallyhard to find.
I knew David Stein.
He was part of my world when Ilived in New Jersey.
I was actually in a writinggroup with him.
I spent a lot of time with himand his ex, who was my mentor.
(15:48):
I built a website for David.
He gave me a really exquisitepiece of art.
I was there when he was writingthis and it took him so long to
write this.
Part of his goal was to correctMr Benson this sort of fantasy
notion of what an SMrelationship would be, and he
(16:09):
wanted to really work out whatit would look like in real terms
, while still being an eroticnovel.
It is big, it is thick and youdon't even know he did so much
revision on it that it was asthough he had written the book
eight times over.
But you recommend it.
If you're into erotic fiction,if you want a novel that really
(16:32):
reflects us as a community andreflects a sense of what's
possible, then I recommend that.
The next book again I haven'tread, but is again by someone
important, and actually Irecommend this book a lot and
that is called SlavecraftRoadmaps for Erotic Servitude.
(16:53):
I'm pretty sure you know one ofthe things I tell the men,
submissive men in my orbit allthe time is that self-care is
service, that when you aretaking good care of your health,
when you are sleeping enough,when you are eating enough, when
you are putting your healthmental, physical, spiritual
(17:15):
health before me.
That's a way of service.
It is a service to me, becausethen you come to me to serve me
as a more healthy whole person.
I'm pretty sure this is aderivation of something that I
think is in this book,slavecraft, and that is that
rule number one is protect theproperty.
So for Baldwin, the first ruleof slavery is protect yourself
(17:39):
as a slave, and that meanstaking care of yourself.
That means knowing what yourboundaries are, and all of that.
I may be making all that up.
I don't think I am.
So you're more than welcome tocheck that out and to read
Slavecraft the next book Ihaven't read, but I know people
who have read it, and the reasonI haven't read it is it came
(18:01):
out in 2008.
By then I kind of kneweverything I needed to know, and
it is the Leather Boy Handbook.
This is the third edition isout now and it's by Vincent
Andrews.
I don't know a lot about thisexcept to say that I've heard it
enough to believe it isreputable and worth reading, so
I would recommend it.
You know I did a lot of writingmyself.
(18:23):
If you've listened to thepodcast extensively, then you've
probably run across a couple ofreadings of some of my stories.
I have collected all of thosestories into an anthology that
is published through Amazon inelectronic format only.
It's called the Stories of Edge.
It's actually really hard tofind if you just go searching by
(18:47):
the title, so I'm going toinclude a link to that in the
show notes, just if you'recurious.
When I write I haven't writtenin a long time because I ended
up getting a life and a job anda career and relationships but
when I was writing eroticfiction, oftentimes I was trying
to work out a problem in myhead around dominant submission,
(19:12):
kink relationships, and alwaysI was embedding historical and
cultural information andknowledge.
So if you read my stories andcultural information and
knowledge, so if you read mystories, there's very specific
references to certain bars or tocertain events and there are
very specific references notjust to boots but to Huesca
(19:33):
boots, not just to gloves but toDamascus gloves, so that they
provide a kind of living historyof experiences at that time,
both the places I'd go and thegear I was wearing.
Living history of experiencesat that time, both the places
I'd go and the gear I waswearing.
So it's an interestinghistorical document, like many
of these, in that it reallyencodes both cultural knowledge
and historical geographicalknowledge.
(19:54):
Now, the last two I'll talkabout aren't really about kink
per se.
They are both about polyamory.
However, there's a lot ofoverlap between polyamory and
our community and I suspect thatthese days a lot of people just
(20:14):
sort of jump into polyamory.
They wake up one day and theydecide to be polyamorous without
doing a lot of thoughtful,intentional work around
polyamory, and I believe thatfor me it has worked better when
I have done the thoughtful,intentional work around
(20:35):
polyamory.
And there are two books Irecommend for that.
The first is sort of theclassic, it's the Bible in some
ways of polyamory.
It came out a while ago.
I don't have publication dateson these because they're outside
my SM timeline.
The first book is the EthicalSlut by Janet Easton.
No, janet Hardy and DossieEaston, it's not hard to find,
(20:59):
just look for the Ethical Slut.
There are no other books calledthe Ethical Slut.
It's not hard to find, justlook for the Ethical Slut.
There are no other books calledthe Ethical Slut.
And I remember when I read it Iwas like, okay, well, a lot of
this, if you're gay is just sortof automatic knowledge because
so much of our community isreally about sexual experiences.
We are a sexual minority, so Ididn't find it super revelatory.
(21:22):
I did find some of the chapters.
There's a part on jealousywhich is really useful and it's
sort of, again, you're buildingfoundational knowledge, you're
kind of going back into historyto build that historical
knowledge.
And the second book I wouldrecommend is, I think, even
better, and that is polysecure.
That is one word by Eve Rickertand Nora Samaran and this is
(21:46):
sort of the updated version,updated approach to the ethical
slut.
Polysecure.
I think I mean all the great,all the A-list polyamorous are
reading Polysecure.
What Polysecure does is looksat polyamory through attachment
theory which comes out oftherapy, and in that I think
(22:08):
it's super duper useful.
It also provides a lot ofuseful vocabulary.
It moves away from ahierarchical nature of polyamory
, where you have a primaryrelationship and then secondary,
and really embraces this notionof polycule, where there's a
constellation of relationships.
It also gives you goodterminology, like solo, poly and
(22:30):
metamor, and I've had a couplepeople read it who found it
useful, not just because of theworkaround attachment theory but
because they've discovered ohwait, hey, as it turns out I'm
solo poly.
I'm not going to want thatnesting partner, and that's been
a revelation for them.
So there's also a workbook.
(22:51):
I don't think the workbook isquite as useful.
I started it and I'm like, oh,this is just not helping me.
Maybe that had to do with mycurrent experience with
polyamory or how far I've madethe journey, but if you're new
to polyamory, if you're thinkingabout polyamory, if you've
decided you're polyamorous, orif you're polyamorous but you've
never really kind of figuredout what exactly that means, I
(23:15):
recommend those two books.
As I'm recording this, I alsorealized there's a book that I
forgot, so I'm going to take ashort break and go find that
book and then come back, so I'llbe right back.
Oh hey, I'm back.
I finally found the book.
The book that I realized while Iwas talking about David Stein
(23:35):
is that he did an editedcollection called Ask the man
who Owns Him the Real Lives ofGay Masters and Slaves,
published in 2009 with DavidStein and David Schachter.
This is unfortunately out ofprint, at least on Amazon, but
perhaps if you scour some of theused book websites, you will
find it.
The remarkable thing about thisyou know we carry all these
(23:59):
fantasies of master-slave.
This is a book that is acollection of interviews with
actual masters and slaves andyou get to see what it's like to
live that, how do people wholive that do it, and you get to
see the sort of spectrum ofdynamics involved for all these
(24:21):
people who are masters andslaves in the real world 24-7.
So if you can find that book,if that's a kind of, if you want
a real 24-7 kink dynamic, Irecommend reading that as well,
and I don't have that on mybookshelf either, so I might
have to hunt down a used copymyself.
This list is not at allexhaustive.
(24:43):
What I did was went through mybookshelf first, thought about
books I had read growing up intoleather second, and did a
little bit of searching onAmazon to make sure I wasn't
missing anything.
There are a lot of other booksthat you might look at,
including books specificallyabout bondage.
There's a book by Naughty Boys.
(25:05):
There's Midori's Seductive Artof Japanese Bondage.
The problem is bondage inparticular is something better
learned through video where youcan see what they're doing.
I learned shibari throughMidori's book, and having to
translate the written word intothree-dimensional space was
really really, really hard.
(25:25):
So there are specific booksabout that.
Josephine also has a book aboutflogging, if you wanted to read
about that.
So there are a lot of otherhow-tos, but these are the ones
I've encountered on my path.
These are the ones I've heardof.
These are the ones I feel arehistorically important.
These are the ones I feel arehistorically important.
These are the ones I feel arehistorically important.
(25:47):
I'm going to end this segmentby emphasizing that there is no
book available that accuratelylooks at old guard protocols.
(26:10):
So you may want to be wary ofbooks about protocol, because I
can actually guarantee you thatavailable books on protocol are
not historically accurate.
They can be read as interestingpieces, but they are not
historically accurate.
(26:30):
That's all I'm going to say.
I think you'll find that usefuladvice as you go book shopping.
If there are books you know ofor you want to recommend, you're
more than welcome to email themto me through ask at
fullcowshow and I can share themin an interlude or a future
segment as an update to thissegment, and I hope you will
(26:51):
consider reading some of these.
Some of these will be hard toread because they're out of
print.
Some of these are not.
Some of these are available asaudiobooks.
Some of them are not.
I think if you're passionateabout this community and its
history, then you might alsoenjoy hunting down copies or
trying to see if there arebootleg PDFs out there on the
(27:14):
web, so that could be aninteresting journey as well, and
along the way, you might findwebsites that discuss other
books that you might find usefulin your journey.
For me, books were the thing.
Books were what I had.
I had books, I had magazinesand I had the people around me,
and they all served me very well.
And even though we've movedinto this digital era where more
(27:36):
information is available inmore ways in more places at any
time, even though we live inthat digital era, I think it's
worth picking up a book sometimeif you really want to ground
yourself in this community.
Not a requirement.
You can be a leather person,whether or not you've read any
of this, without a doubt, but Ithink it adds something when you
(28:02):
know who came before you andwhat they did to get here and
what they've contributed and how.
That is your inheritance andhow things you do, places you go
, are reflecting practices thattook place sometimes decades ago
.
But yeah, that's me.
(28:23):
I hope you enjoyed the bookdiscussion at least.
And yeah, thanks.
And now we have Ask Edge, thesegment where I answer questions
from all of you.
If you have a question, you cansend it to me at ask at full
(28:43):
cow dot show.
That's ask at full cow dot show.
Or, even better, you can leaveme a voicemail at speakpipecom
slash leather edge.
L-t-h-r-e-d-g-e.
That's speakpipecom slashleatheredge.
L-t-h-r-e-d-g-e.
That's speakpipecom slashleatheredge.
Those links are available inthe show notes.
And for this episode we haveone question from Leonard Hi
(29:08):
Edge.
I was wondering if you have anytips or practices to get into
the leather slash kink scene.
My partner and I would like toget more into the local scene
but are finding it difficult.
We are a monogamous couple andit seems that all events and
spaces are more welcoming topoly people.
What are some ways we can getinvolved and participate while
still keeping the integrity ofour relationship?
(29:31):
What an excellent question, andlet me start by saying that
monogamy is a valid relationshipchoice, as is polyamory, that
one does not take away from theother, and I think you're
absolutely right that as acommunity we are far more
inclined to polyamory, tocreating spaces for polyamorous
(29:54):
people and for being polyourselves.
There is a sense, particularlyin bar spaces and some event
spaces, where everyone'savailable.
Any man you look at, any personyou look at, is available for
your sexual desires.
You just need to seduce them,right?
Not true?
(30:14):
Not true?
The answer to your dilemmadepends, in part, on where
you're located.
Some local scenes have moredepth and more possibilities
than others.
However, here are and this isobviously a problem because we
are a sexual community and thatmeans we have a blurred line
(30:37):
between the community aspect andthe sexual aspect.
And being able to move yourselfmore firmly into community and
away from the sexual aspectwhile still being leather people
can be a little challenging.
I'll also say, before I getinto the answer you're not alone
.
I had a question from someonein the Atlanta area a while ago,
(31:04):
but they were also monogamous,so you're not alone.
The trick is going to be findingothers like you.
So the first tip I would giveyou, based on your local scene,
is to move away from sexualspaces to social spaces.
So here in Fort Lauderdale, forexample, we have a lot of sex
(31:26):
clubs, we have a couple of sexparties and we have two leather
bars.
All of those are going to besexual spaces, but we also have
something called the leatherfamily social dinner, which is
purely a social space.
We have classes taught byLeatherworks, which is purely a
social space.
We have a leather cocktailparty that rotates around
(31:49):
couples and their houses.
That is purely a social space.
So you want to be able to lookfor places where the sexual is
not foregrounded, so placeswhere there's likely to be less
cruising.
The second tip is related tothat, and that is, if those
spaces don't exist, you cancreate them.
(32:11):
You can host a leather dinnerparty for local couples who you
identify are monogamous orlikely to respect your monogamy.
That's what I will say and thenthat can become something that
grows and creates this sort ofcommunity around you that
creates connection for you andaround you.
(32:32):
So the first tip is look forsocial spaces, not sexual spaces
.
The second tip is, if there areno social spaces, make them.
And then the third tip isevents.
Now you said that the localevents are more welcoming to
poly people.
I would recommend some of thenational events, which I think
(32:55):
for me are less sexual.
If you think about somethinglike IML, I've always said IML
is what you make it.
So if you go to IML looking forsex, you can have all the sex
you want.
If you go there looking todance, you can have all the
dancing you want.
If you go there looking forsocial connection, that's what
you can have.
I rarely, if ever, functionthat's what you can have.
(33:21):
I rarely, if ever, play atevents.
But what I do is makeintentional plans with people I
want to meet and spend time with, and that's dinners, lunches,
breakfast, coffee.
Let's go shopping together soyou can control what the event
is for you.
And these are national eventsand that means broader base of
possibilities because so manypeople are attending.
As a corollary to that, oneevent that I might recommend is
(33:44):
Claw.
Claw has two flavors.
There's the classic Claw, whichis in April in Cleveland, and
then there's the new Claw, whichhas so many different names
Leather Getaway, I think they'recalling it Leather Thanksgiving
right now.
We still just call it LA Claw.
It's in Los Angeles and it'sover Thanksgiving.
(34:07):
The thing about the claws isthat they are heavily focused on
education.
That means two things.
First of all, it means that youcan go to these classes that
are not even if they're aboutsexual topics they're not
actually about having sex in theclass right, they are more
social educational spaces versusin LA, the giant 3000 square
(34:28):
foot dark room, which is clearlya sexual space.
The other thing is Claw'salways looking for educators and
all you need to do is emailthem and say, hey, I would like
to do a class on monogamy andkink, and they'd probably be
really eager for that, becausethey're usually looking for
presenters.
It's probably a topic no onehas ever presented and if you
(34:50):
present, you get a freeregistration.
Now you may not feel likeyou're qualified to teach, but
if you think of it more as apanel discussion or around the
room discussion or presentingyour experiences, what you're
going to do is you're going todraw people who are dealing with
monogamy and kink, and thatmeans you're going to draw
friends to you.
(35:10):
They will come to you, andmaybe it's only one person whose
husband is at home, maybe it'sa couple of couples, but that
becomes the start of creatingsocial networks that are not
sexual.
The only other general piece ofadvice and I'm sure you've
already tried this is to beexplicit about the boundaries of
(35:33):
your relationship and askpeople to respect them.
Again, I've said that if we'rein sexual spaces, we tend to
assume every person there isavailable to us if we have the
right goods, and sometimes weneed to be told that, no, some
people are not available to us,and there are analogs to this in
master-slave.
(35:54):
There's no expectation that ifsomeone is locked in a collar
with someone on a leash, there'sno expectation that they are
sexually available to you.
So as part of that, you mayalso consider, depending on the
specific dynamics of yourrelationship, if there's a way
for one of you to wear the otherperson's collar.
(36:15):
That is a way of broadlysignaling no, do not touch.
Now, that requires a certainkind of literacy in the
community.
I don't know if that'savailable by you.
Certainly, collars and theirmeanings have been diversified
lately, shall we say.
Some people just wear a collarbecause they want to wear a
collar.
(36:36):
Diversified lately, shall wesay, Some people just wear a
collar because they want to weara collar.
But classically I think itwould have been a way of saying
do not touch.
And in certain spaces it willremain a way of saying do not
touch, which is a way of settingboundaries from the outset, and
I feel like a collar is like awedding ring.
I don't just go around throwingcollars on people.
(36:57):
Okay, yeah, I do some playcollars, but I'm not collaring
someone unless that's theequivalent to marriage for me.
That's the level of commitmentand therefore it might be a way
of signaling.
Now, it may not actuallyreflect the dynamics of your
relationship and therefore itmay feel a little dishonest, so
you may not want to do it.
However, it is another optionfor you.
(37:27):
Ultimately, I think that as acommunity, we have so much we
need to look at so often Ouracceptance of trans people,
issues of equity and inclusionof BIPOC people and part of that
which is probably going to be alittle far down the line,
frankly, because it's a minority, minority Part of it is.
We need to look at the kind ofbias we have against monogamy,
(37:47):
and you are in a position tostart creating that conversation
by being who you are in spaces.
Oh goodness.
Another idea you know I don'tknow if you know about FetLife,
f-e-t-l-i-f-ecom.
I think of it as sort of likekinky Facebook.
It is filled with allsexualities, which means you'll
(38:11):
find a lot of heterosexualsthere.
You'll find some homosexualsthere, you'll find pansexuals.
You'll find a little bit ofeverything on FetLife.
That might be another placewhere you can begin to look for
community, because it's verysort of discussion board paced
and you could probably find somediscussion of monogamy or start
a discussion of monogamy,because it's great to say, be at
(38:34):
the local leather bar and havepeople not be hitting on you.
That is ideal.
But I think what's moreimportant is to locate sources
of connection that make you feelseen and valued as members of
the community and that areplaces of support and comfort as
you face challenges to yourmonogamy from the community.
(38:56):
And so a lot of times that canhappen more virtually through
things like FetLife, or it canhappen more irregularly through
things like going to an eventonce a year.
Of all those options, I mean,the one I really want to promote
for you is proposing a class onmonogamy and kink at CLAW.
(39:20):
I think it would be fantasticand it'd be really interesting
to see who showed up and alsowhat kind of response you got.
I don't think you'd get peoplewho were hostile, but that would
be curious.
I don't know if that makes itsound like a horrible experience
for you, but I think it'd begood class.
I think it'd be reallyimportant and educational.
So please consider it.
And then the other thing I'dreally think about is really
(39:42):
starting your own damn communityand having people over for
dinner in gear, or over fordrinks in gear, or over to watch
TV in gear People who you thinkalready know and respect the
boundaries of your relationshipas a way of starting an
alternate sub-community that isstrongly separated from sexual
(40:04):
spaces with a focus on thesocial.
Thank you for the question.
I want to encourage everyone toplease, please, please, send
questions.
They help me really make thispodcast better on so many
dimensions.
And that's it for this episode.
I'm so grateful that all of youhave given me some 40-odd
(40:26):
minutes of your time out of yourday and I hope your journey is
going really well Because, lordknows, it can be tough.
That's what this question isabout.
Right, this journey is tough.
It is tough and I know that,and it pains me because my
journey's been pretty easy.
So I'm hoping your journey,even if it's challenging, is
(40:48):
really really good.
And that's it for this episode.
Thank you so much for joiningme.
Please consider subscribing oryou can send feedback to edge at
full cow dot show, as always.
May your leather journey beblessed.
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