Episode 169: Why sales ignore marketing with Andrei & Vladimir

In this episode of Full-Funnel Live, Vlad and Andrei tackle the age-old problem head-on. They move beyond the blame game to uncover the real reasons for the disconnect and provide a practical blueprint for repair. If you've ever wondered why your sales team seems to be operating in a parallel universe, this conversation is for you.

Tune in to learn:

- What sales actually want from marketing
- The real reasons why sales don’t follow up with marketing leads and ignore marketing content 
- How to fix collaboration with sales

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:04):
This is the Full Funnel bt B Marketing podcast, brought
to you by full Funnel dot io.

Speaker 2 (00:11):
Let's start.

Speaker 3 (00:14):
Everyone, and welcome to the new episode of Full Final Life.
We're thinking another important topic today by sales, ignore marketing
and just maybe to share the context with everybody where's
coming from. We have seen this story multiple times this year,

(00:38):
but there is a case that we have observed basically
led us to create a like a good collateral about
this topic, about the reasons, what's happening, why sales are
pushing back, and how to fix it right? The most
important one is how to fix it or the pregical solutions.

(01:01):
And what has happened is one marketing leader spent a
lot of time on designing the playbooks for sales, investing
internew let's say, new software to track different types of signals,
creating different sequences for sales. So that was a solid

(01:25):
investment of time and money and resources and implementing this.
But guess what has happened on the sales side, right
on the adaption side, selles simply we're not using it
and we're not tracking. We're not using the software, not
using the signals, not using the insights, and not running

(01:46):
the sequences as well. So what the company did is
that obviously that they automated a couple of these sequences
using the modern technologies tack but didn't yield significant results
or significant improvements, right. And the core question that we

(02:07):
were discussing was that person's like, why this is happening?
So I create and for sure that this we can't
say that it wasn't available. It was the problem was
that sales had completely different perception right of the value.

Speaker 2 (02:22):
Brought by the marketing team.

Speaker 3 (02:25):
So this is what we're going to cover today, the
main reasons why sales are pushing back, what sells one
from market and the practical solutions how to fix that misalignment.
And meanwhile, let us know guys where you all coming from?
Where again? Broadcasting from Signy and Warm Spain. Hi Carly

(02:46):
and got to see you again, High Thailand. Let us
know guys where you all join us from and just
type in the chap a city or country Istanbul great
to see Blood's face at city.

Speaker 1 (03:03):
I spent the week my family and we had an earthquake,
not a big.

Speaker 2 (03:07):
One now, yeah, high Lejandra got to see it. Good.

Speaker 3 (03:12):
So Monterey, Mexico and other fantastic city cool. So before
I will start, as always, guys, you are very welcome
to ask questions in the chat, and by the very
sense a lot for sharing the questions upfront, because we
have basically we have designed this narrative to cover lots

(03:33):
of your questions about what the beta metrics, MTL pipeline.

Speaker 2 (03:37):
Et cetera. So we're going to cover all of them.

Speaker 3 (03:39):
But if anything specific will come to your mind, just
feel free to drop it in the chat and will
make sure that will cover it.

Speaker 2 (03:46):
So the first.

Speaker 3 (03:49):
Point is that we want to discuss as how marketing
designs the sales playbooks, and the first thing that comes
to my mind is why marketing is even doing this.
When I'm hearing I have orchestrated this playbook and these
sequences for sales, my first question is why right? And

(04:10):
to be honest, I have never heard from any VP
of sales saying, hey, I expect marketing to design our prospective.

Speaker 2 (04:19):
Or engagement playbooks.

Speaker 3 (04:21):
Yet this happens quite often, and this happens quite often
when marketing orchestrates the account based marketing program. Again, for decades,
that was a solid perception that ABM is fully owned
marketing initiator where sales are supposed to do something which
is more likely to close the deals. So jump on

(04:42):
the discovery calls and the entire pipeline creation sets on
the marketing side, and marketing takes over the orchestration, design
service and designs the touch points, sequences, et cetera.

Speaker 2 (04:55):
For sales.

Speaker 3 (04:56):
And here we go, right, and the most typical orches stration, which,
to be honest, I'm also was in charge of many
years ago. So I just deliberately found that project where
I created this, So absolutely I'm in charge of this.
I designed Everson for sales. How the engagement should look like.

(05:21):
How let's say where we pe of sales should engage
with the senior buyer, How the sales strap should engage,
where the leadership should join, what should we say at
each step? And guess what has happened? Again, the story
was very simple, right, that was where to nahon from

(05:41):
the sales side engagement? Right, hy Because they have the
own plan and the own playbooks, et cetera, and the
perception is okay, guys, createst meetings for us drive this awareness.

Speaker 2 (05:54):
And will take care of the rest.

Speaker 3 (05:56):
But we often spend this time reading the best practices hopefully. Uh,
this is whenever shared the best practices, so we have
maybe we're on the opposite side of ABM best practices
how ABM should be executed. But if you if you
have ever seen the pdos or the blog posts from

(06:18):
the famous ABM vendors, quite often you see the orchestration
of these sequences. There is the first touch point that
sales should be doing, for example, linked and connection requests.
Then we sent an email for example, how you can
could cause with super valuable content. Then another email would
be like why as versus your competitor for example, Then

(06:39):
you should like the sales rep should call and say, hey,
is it your top priority? And then we'll send another
piece of content, et cetera. And we assume that this
is available nurture and this is how we create awareness,
this is how we warm up people. And the truth
to be said, sales could set up these playbooks, but

(07:00):
how they are different from the targeted lead generation. Let's
be absolutely honest, not that much, right, and we all
know how that playbok performs. Not to say I maybe
before will move forward to the next point, not to
say how our buyers perceive this content. Just let's paust

(07:20):
for a second and look at this playbok from the
buyer lenses. Let's say we are target and enterprise organizations
and we want to sell the technical teams. We are
targeted citos piece of its people who are managing big
IT budgets, big A T teams and BEC infrastructure. And
then some junior sales rep they have no clue who

(07:42):
is that person comes to you and tells you, Okay,
this is how you are going to cut your costs,
and this is why you should select us, and why
is this? This is not your kind of top priority?
Don't We see the disconnection between the needs and perception
of the enterprise buyers and how the engagement is structured.

Speaker 2 (08:03):
So there is a huge discrepancy.

Speaker 3 (08:06):
Between the let's say, the real value of the buyer
expect and the type of engagement they prefers. How this
let's say gallences are designed and when they when the
skeletencies fail, and they inevitably fail, like in our entire history,

(08:28):
we have never seen any company that performed well with
these cadencers. Sales come back to their typical engagement, and
then marketing as supposed to either run continue running this
Let's say sequences or blame and sales or shutting down
the program. So what we're going to share next is
what sales actually want from marketing, and uh, where's all

(08:52):
coming from? Again, we don't want to come here as
kind of people who say, Okay, this playbook is not
and this is what we're saying should be done. What
we want to what we have done in the last
couple of years, we interviewed multiple sales leaders and we
have done this the same on our live podcast and

(09:13):
our full final signment. You can see the screenshot and
if you guys will be interested, we can share with
you the recordings of these episodes. And we asked, we
explicitly asked that question, Okay, what do you expect from marketing,
what kind of help?

Speaker 2 (09:27):
What do you want?

Speaker 3 (09:28):
How do you field marketing should be helping you as
generate an enterprise pipeline. So everything that we're going to
share next is coming from these conversations with the piece
of sales, head of sales crs of enterprise B to
B companies. So let's come to the point to five
major areas where sales needs market and help.

Speaker 2 (09:51):
So yeah, to you, we.

Speaker 1 (09:56):
Were discussing as always just before the podcast how we're
going to split the slide so it's not just one
long monologue. And I understood and understood something else, So
that's why I was making that awkward post. But thank
you for passing the mic. So what we hear over
and over again is that it's very hard for sales

(10:18):
to break through the noise, to stand out, to be
even noticed in the inbox. One of the sales vps
that I spoke to said it very nicely, said, look there,
if I look at my buyers and I spoke to them,
our customers, they tell me like, we receive hundreds of
these messages. And it's not even about whether this message

(10:42):
is personalized, whether this message is something that would attract
my attention, the subject line, the contents of it. I
don't even read it because I just don't have the time.
I only read the messages from the people that I know.
And that is the reality that salespeople face from the
very outreach as in this example, all the way to

(11:04):
actually trying to win the deals. Another story further down
the funnel, let's say I also remember speaking to an
ARABP of saleshop mentioned like we lose, we lose on
brand that's what it said. So this was originally a
UK company with North American presence, but it wasn't as

(11:28):
well known in the United States as the let's say,
the incumbents, the biggest competitors, and so it wasn't perceived
as I don't want to say, a serious player. But
essentially they proceeded it as maybe a European startup or
somebody that's not maybe as relevant to them as they

(11:52):
want to. Especially enterprise buyers don't like to take a
risk on an unknown brand. So brand awareness is one
of the top challenges that sales need help with change
management content. A lot of sales. What do we mean
by change management content? We mean that in a majority

(12:14):
of cases, the buyers have the status quo, so we
know that buyers are not really buyers. Majority of their time,
there are people who do their job, who are paid
to do their job well, and they're dealing with their issues.
It's only when there is an internal let's say, change
in priorities or something happens, some sort of a business

(12:37):
trigger that drives their priorities to change, that they might
start looking for a solution. And so, in other words,
what I'm trying to say here is that people accept
status quo. Right, So we all live, depending on the
area of our lives or our work, we all accept
status quo. It's just it's impossible to change everything. And

(13:01):
in a lot of cases, in enterprise context context, there's
so many things that can be improved, but there is
only a few, there are only a few priorities. So
helping buyers even just making them aware that things can
be done differently, what is the cost of inaction? What

(13:22):
is basically, let's say, what may be some of the
more progressive companies or people who are their peers, who
are in a similar position that our companies are doing differently,
and why they should also consider that. That's what we

(13:42):
mean by change management. Right. The third one is account insights,
and we spoke about it in different contexts multiple times
about this phenomenon of account blindness. Now, the worst possible
example that you have in a lot of companies, and

(14:04):
I mean we've seen it many times, is we speak
to marketing, and marketing says, hey, sales, you know, we're
doing all these activities to generate these leads, to warm
them up, and then we pass them to sales, and
then sales ignore them and then we go to sales
and we speak to them and they say, hey, you
know what, I've been assigned these prospects contexts even without

(14:27):
any context. I don't know why I've been assigned this.
I don't know what has happened other than some weird
marketing campaign codes that I don't know how to read.
I don't know what they mean. I have no context.
So let alone that maybe I've tried to follow up
with some of those leads and they didn't respond. Like,

(14:50):
having basically the insight into the account and having this
in a more holistic way is what sales need. And
so from all the marketing engagement that might be relevant
for sales, to all the account research that might have
been done, to why did we even select this account,

(15:10):
what are the why do we believe it's a faitity,
do we observe some signals? Et cetera, et cetera, Having
all those insights excuse me, in one place is very
helpful for excuse me, or shut this down so it
doesn't happen again, is what sales need. Fourth one is

(15:31):
once they start engaging with their champion, it's actually where
the battle for a lot of salespeople only starts where
for a lot of marketing teams it completely ends. Oh
we have a sales discovery call or maybe already a
qualified opportunity. That's it, right, we can celebrate, but it's

(15:52):
actually where the most difficult job for sales starts is
because maybe we have an interest from a champion, but
this champion now has to sell this internally. We spoke
about the status quo, We spoke about priorities in those accounts,
you know, executive priorities, business priorities, et cetera. So how

(16:14):
can that champion now show that this initiative, this solution
aligns with a high priority business objective, that it's worthwhile,
that the cost of doing nothing is worthwhile for us
to pay attention, that we cannot ignore or postpone it,

(16:34):
and that the ROI of implementing that solution is going
to be you know, again significant for us to care
and in line with our priorities. So this is the
role of buyer enablement content. Even if as a marketing
team we can help our sales colleagues to create business

(16:56):
cases that answer the questions that I just meant, this
is already going to be a huge help, and they
obviously are the ones who have the information. But helping
create this piece of content and help helping them then
distribute that to the buying committee members is a huge

(17:19):
help in accelerating the deal and helping win that deal.
And then the final one is the clear marketing message.
And basically, if we look at our target accounts and
the way that we are usually messaging them, unfortunately it's

(17:40):
a lot of times kind of a generic message, the
one that we all receive in our inboxes. You know, hey,
we are such and such and we can help you. Well,
I see that your fo funnel is also an agency,
and we help agency lend whatever ten calls a month

(18:01):
or whatever. I don't even know. I don't read those emails,
and it's always the number one and the number two
and the number three. But aligning the marketing message with
the target accounts, the target account clusters, having cohesive message
across the different channels from the content that we use

(18:23):
to want those accounts up all the way to the
specific buyers and aligning that with their needs is also
something that sales appreciate a lot, both content like Andrey
mentioned that summit session that we had with those sales
leaders and one of the patterns that we heard a

(18:43):
lot was you know, having relevant content that they can
share help create the awareness, but also show not only
what the solution can do in terms of features, but
also how the solution can actually helped solve the real
problems that these customers have. So this is what we

(19:05):
hear over and over again from our clients when we
speak to salespeople. So let's see, now, why do I
actually sales when we try to as marketers try to,
you know, run initiatives and work together with them, why
do they push back? Why do they not always jump

(19:25):
on it as we would like them to.

Speaker 2 (19:28):
So this is the second part.

Speaker 3 (19:30):
Right, Obviously, that could be one fundamental problem that we're
not going to cover here, but it could be the
main reason. And this is the organizational culture. If your
organization is old enough and big and for years, market

(19:54):
and stroll has been sales order takers, marketing was strid,
as arts and crafts department, as cost center. To be honest,
changing this is very hard and that could be a
particular reason for the sales pushback. And I honestly, I'm

(20:18):
observing a lot of corporations today and unfortunately this and
we have let's say half of our portfolio enterprise clients
and this could be the case for too many organizations unfortunately.
And if this is true, we have covered let's say,
the only framework we know that helps with this change

(20:39):
management is through Credule City in the grain face, finding
your change agents and doing small school pilot programs. This
is what we have covered on our webinar months ago.
So if you guys didn't watch it, feel free to
reach out and I will send the recording.

Speaker 2 (20:57):
And if that's not the case, then.

Speaker 3 (21:01):
Sales pushback could be happening because of one of these
five reasons. In most cases, this is what we have observed.
One is the protective mindset this is happening, and the
let's say, the sign the red flag of it when
UH sales they for example, if you want you ask sales, hey,

(21:25):
can we intrude this account? Can we run customer research?
Can we talk to the buying committee members and sales
immediate Let's say no, no, no, no, no, this are my contacts.
We don't need to bother them, et cetera, et cetera.
This is a huge red flag.

Speaker 2 (21:40):
Whatever.

Speaker 3 (21:40):
Again, this could be an organizational issue, bigger issue, or
maybe this could be an issue of a particular persona.
But quite often there is a rude reason for this,
and this is the kind of credit issue. So sales
they want to kind of let's say, crown the roots

(22:01):
and the organization show that they are irreplaceable let's say
resource and these are the connection connections. So it's just
purely because of them, this client understand with the company.
So this is another part of the organizational issue that
you need to address. But potentially you can leverage. You

(22:23):
can start engaging with let's say, other sales reps as
other clients and show how you create key status, et cetera,
and address this issue on the bigger level. Right, this
is the first one. The next one that we often
observe is the main knowledge flat Right. It's particularly happening

(22:44):
in many companies where marketers join the company from completely
different field, not understanding the target audience, the market and the.

Speaker 2 (22:56):
Product.

Speaker 3 (22:57):
And that's l I know you have had some experience
as well, people who are joining let's say technical products
that assault the technical team.

Speaker 2 (23:06):
So maybe you can share just.

Speaker 1 (23:08):
A thing there is actually not to let's say, it's
not the fault of marketers. You know, in most cases
it's basically you're join the organization. If you're joined as
a salesperson, you will get onboarding on the sales process. Obviously,
you will join some discovery calls with maybe more senior colleagues.

(23:28):
You will have the education about the product, et cetera.
As a marketer, you often don't really get it should
be part of the onboarding for sure, but it isn't.
And what is the consequence if you don't have that
domain knowledge, if you don't understand the real industry. The
industry pays the customer buying process their challenges, et cetera,

(23:54):
et cetera firsthand, Like sales understand it because they're in
the trenches every day. And then you try to, let's say,
create a piece of content and to help sales or
craft a message, it's going to be considered relevant because, yeah,
if you don't technoledge is difficult. And the story that
they refers to what is was when we were working

(24:16):
with someone who was supposed to create a program that
is supposed to engage let's say technical buyers, and these
technical buyers are like software engineered, like part of the
software engineering team. And I mean it's like, first of all,

(24:36):
this is a very difficult buyers to engage because they
kind of mistrust they're skeptical, they mistrust kind of sales
and marketing, anything that sales e and marketing gee, all right,
But also because they actually who they do trust and
who they respect that their peers are people who are experts.
I'd say, people who have the knowledge. So it's really

(24:58):
really hard to create any meaningful program when you like
that knowledge. And in that case, just to round the story,
we solved it by engaging immediately the subject matter expert
who really helped us get that program off the ground.
And I think when it comes to that, it's kind
of like also a bit of self perpetuating problem. Like

(25:20):
if you combine this with what Andreid explained like a
protective mindset. You know, if there is a lack of
trust in the organization between sales and marketing, so sales
kind of have given up and don't want to give
access to their customers. They don't want to spend time
to actually pass that knowledge along. There are no structured programs,
it becomes very difficult. It's kind of a self perpetuating

(25:41):
problem because we don't have the knowledge, We try things
they don't land, and then we even have less trust
or less interest from sales to work with us, and
that is kind of a visual circle that gets created.
And I think related to that knowledge is one is
the knowledge of the customers and the market and the

(26:05):
industry the product. The other one is the sales challenges
and the sales process. What's actually happening in those sales teams,
what is the process? What are the top priorities and
challenges that they have to deal with, Because if you
don't know that one, it can seem if you're not
really even asking about it, if you're not really aware

(26:27):
of those problems, it may seem to a sales that
you don't care. But also it's really as a marketer,
you know that it's very difficult to present a solution
to your customer, to a prospect if you don't understand
that problem. The first thing everybody says, know your customer, right, Well,
if you want to suggest a collaboration to sales and

(26:53):
you don't know their priorities and challenges, you have the
same problem. Essentially, it's very difficult. So the better you
understand there challenge is easier it will be for you
to present a solution. Because solution doesn't exist with all
the problem.

Speaker 2 (27:07):
I mean, this is this is why the maand this
connection happens. Right.

Speaker 3 (27:11):
It's when you've designed the playbooks and you say, hey,
this is what we are going to do, but sales, Okay,
come on, guys, this is not what we actually need, right, yeah,
this is where.

Speaker 1 (27:27):
Yeah, and it's I think, but that's another thing, and
that's kind of also depends on the maturity of a person,
their experience, and the complexity organization that they worked in.
But there is a bit of a kind of a
naive also approach to change management. Right, so we all
know that people don't change us because you ask them to,

(27:47):
and people don't do things just because you ask them to.
Un let's maybe they're young kids and their disciplines even then,
so we know that that's the case. So by approaching
it in that kind of hey, this is what you
should do, and expecting them to just listen and follow

(28:11):
your suggestions, I think it's kind of also a little
bit native, right, So we know that that change requires
much more, and we'll dive a little bit more detail
into that as well. But I think there is a
core problem here. I think maybe Andrew, you can address
this like the core issue has to do with the
incentives and the KPIs yeah.

Speaker 3 (28:34):
So again, like we spoke about the playbox, right, if
I have different KPI sales, sales in charge of revenue
and in case of marketing is not anyhow tied to revenue,
we have a huge disconnect. So quite often, like we

(28:54):
all know that we need to work on prend and
this is not discussable, right, this is essential.

Speaker 2 (29:01):
Let's say if we come.

Speaker 3 (29:02):
To sales and say, hey, guys, we want to involve
you into start leadership and we want you to run
content distribution. We created this piece of content, right, we
want you to send this piece of content to your
key accounts. Then the main question is okay, but how
is it going to help me to hit my revenue targets?
And this is always the case, right, So for example,

(29:25):
we say, okay, we're think you guys should be doing this.
But let's say if our KPIs IF and the worsing,
what is happening? And we have observed us a couple
of times when marketing comes to the board meeting and
reports on brand traffic, on positions, on traffic from LMS,
how we kind of RaSE our visibility across LMS all

(29:48):
of that stuff, and so we present like we created
new pieces of content, we created a new let's say,
product documentation, et cetera. So lots of marketing wins have opinion,
and it's true these are the wins. But at the
same time, the sales teams list and revenue targets, we

(30:08):
have a huge disconnect. So on this, like, just let's
think for a second, how this is per sift on
sales side. Okay, these guys has celebrated all of that stuff,
but this stuff is not helping us to hit our
revenue targets. And then after this I coming and saying, hey,
this is what we think you should be doing, they
would say, okay, guys, first of all, close some deals,

(30:31):
bring some millions in revenue, and then you'll tell us
what to do. And this is what we have heard
from the sales leaders. So this is not just to
the connest. I have heard this as well a couple
of times and being a part of these discussions nineteen
years ago when I started in sales at Kimberly Clark.
So this is kind of the sad reality. And these

(30:53):
are the main five reasons while why sales is pushing back.
So let's move to the solution part of the most important, right,
So we brought a couple of examples here and then
we'll cover then one by one. Let's start with the
first one, that was the fundamental alignment, because I said
pros out it eras and all the rest is what

(31:14):
does that much helpful?

Speaker 1 (31:16):
I think the fundamental alignment re foundational alignment here is
really about are we working on the singles and are
we working on the same market? I mean to put
it extremely simply, right, So if our goals are let's
say we spoke about things like you know we need

(31:40):
as a sales our top priority is, let's say, to
break into the enterprise segment and the biggest difficulty that
we have is getting attention from the senior buyers because
of the like of brand awareness, we are not one
of the biggest brands there. Well, that suddenly becomes a

(32:01):
goal that we can align on as marketing. We can
help sales with that goal. But that's like the first step.
Second step is okay, you mentioned enterprise accounts. What do
you actually mean? Like is this about billion? Is it
about five billion? Like? What is the meaning of enterprise
accounts for you, and it's different for every organization and

(32:23):
even for every region. An enterprise account in North America
is going to be much larger than an enterprise account
in Europe, for example, or Asia. Next, you want to
understand not only the thermographics such as the size of
those accounts maybe they are industries, etc. But actually, what

(32:45):
are the common use cases where we have a good
chance to win where we have some competitive advantage. Like
sales know this because they have conversations with buyers and
they know that. You know, these companies are looking for
solutions for A, B and C the use case as

(33:06):
in I am looking to solve these challenges because I'm
looking to implement let's say account is marketing. Because my
use cases, I need to break in into enterprise A segment, right,
And now I start digging into that and say, hey,

(33:28):
you know we have these different use cases. You have
this use case, you have another one. And let's say
competitor displacement, there's merger, acquisitions, whatever. But where do we
actually win better? Like if you look at these deals

(33:49):
we have, our solution may be a better fit for something.
We might have some competitive advantage in some use cases
versus the others. And sales will know that too, Like
when I have this, then I know I have a
better chance to win when I have the other situation.
So drilling down from that use case to understanding breaking

(34:10):
this down understanding how I should align my content and messaging.
So what are the real challenges, what are the priorities?
But also what are maybe some of the signals that
I can use to detect whether these accounts are actually exhibiting,
whether they are experiencing some of these needs and issues,
whether the timing might be right for us to break

(34:33):
into those accounts, all the things that I can use
now to start prioritizing my target accounts and actually align
not only on the goals, but also like are we
going after the same market? Are we going after the
same accounts? And then finally, also if sales is telling
me these are the top use cases, this is how

(34:55):
I can recognize it. I can also now start aligning
the content and messaging with those target accounts. So this
is like a very very on a very basic level,
is like, Okay, what does it mean that foundational fundamental alignment? Right?
Are we working on the singles on same accounts? Are
we using the same content messaging? Or at least in

(35:19):
the same topic, looking in the same direction. And also
I think important is and we'll dive into that as well.
Is Okay, how are we going to be creating awareness
in those accounts? How are we going to be you know,
moving from that initial engagement and starting conversations. How are

(35:42):
we going to move into discovery calls and later on?
So for basically this whole process, what are going to
be the activities that we run? What is expected from marketing,
what is expected from sales? Which comes as an next
point when we start planning.

Speaker 3 (35:58):
Yeah, so basically what we are going to share next
with you or are the tactical solutions for what we
call the lowest handing fruits, right, something that you can
implement relatively easily and relatively fast. Fundamental alignment is hard,
and this is kind of ongoing exercise, ongoing process, right.

(36:19):
But the other points that we're going to shore they
are tactical ones. So the first one is the planning.
It could be quotter planning, monthly planning, whatever, but the
core point.

Speaker 2 (36:32):
Here is that you need to do it together. Well.
Now that and by the way, quick question to you.

Speaker 3 (36:37):
Guys, who has ever been a part of sales territory
planning just type plus or minus plus if you have
been invited to it, and minus if you have never
been invited to the sales plan territory sales planning and
the same. So let's let's see how many replies will
get now, aim and also nocre is yes? Cool, Natalia

(37:03):
yes cool? Alexander no. So this is the reality, right,
marketing often is not part of it?

Speaker 2 (37:11):
Carry yes?

Speaker 3 (37:13):
And now the another question, who has ever invited sales
and they actually joined your let's say quoter marketing plan
and or your marketing strategy sessions? Again type plus if
sales have ever joined you and actively participated in the
planning and minus of no curious to see. Okay, cool,

(37:35):
So we have some pluses. So this is this is
not bad. This is not bad. So it's good if
it's happening in your organizations because what we absorb, and
especially again this is the truth for the bigger organizations,
is that marketing and sales planning is absolutely silent. Sales
do the territory plan on market and does the strategy plan.

(37:58):
And if marketing has multiple departments let's say content, prend demand, communications,
et cetera.

Speaker 2 (38:05):
Even misalignment happens.

Speaker 3 (38:06):
There we have observed the better I mean we have
observed this in the in the bigger corporations. Now, in reality,
the first step here is just doing this all all
of these together. If we're doing the territory planning, and
we want to select the accounts, which accounts we are
going to select from what markets, from what verticals, and

(38:27):
even better, what should be our primary use case? This
is the typical approach that we take. Right next, can
we back our decisions by data? Because quite often these
are more I know how to explain it. This a
more like gut feeling decisions or whatever. We see the strends.

(38:47):
So let's go after this article of feeling that these
accounts would be better fit or we just sourced let's
say technology, and this is the set of accounts that
we have defined. But why not back in our decisions
by data, by real data? For example, run and sells
pipeline velocity for different verticals, for different use cases, for

(39:09):
different markets, and seeing where we have a better velocity
where we have high wind rates. Compare this let's say
enterprise to sm B wherever we have shot a sales
cycles where our average contract value is high where we
historically generate a better pipeline. Right, So quite often, like
when we're back this by data, and this already involves

(39:30):
the cross functional collaboration because we can invite analysts or
revelops to bring this data to us, we can make
much better decisions, right, and then define the next step
together would be Okay, what should be our account qualification criteria?
This is the next point that we were going to cover, Right, then,
how can we identify which of these accounts are engaged

(39:51):
or aware of us? Because sales will always complain about
lack of awareness among target accounts. This is kind of
inevitable evergreen pro problem.

Speaker 2 (40:01):
But how can we measure this print awareness?

Speaker 3 (40:06):
And again, I honestly I have seen some people on
linked and who claim how they like let's say the
formulas for print awareness. But just bring this formulas or
these reports to sales and you'll immediately see the pushback.
The only right answer to this question, and maybe I'm
wrong here, but this is kind of comes from our

(40:28):
entire experience. The best answer to this question is sitting
down together with sales and maybe now the criteria of
engaged accounts?

Speaker 2 (40:35):
What behavior and what engagement and.

Speaker 3 (40:39):
Accounts should demonstrate what, let's say on the account level,
on the contact level, so we can call this account
when they're aware of being aware of us. This is
the right way how you measure the print awareness amongst
strategic accounts. Right, Next defining what would be the cor priorities,
like what said, maybe it's print awareness, maybe it's del accelary,

(41:00):
because quite often it's you have pipeline, but sales are
not progressing, the deals are not.

Speaker 2 (41:05):
Closing it enough.

Speaker 3 (41:06):
Why because there is no good buyer enablement right or
there was no there is simply no process where marketing
and sales work together on planning the next steps for
accounts and how everybody could uh contribute to to the
deal progress right, and what should be the focus for
our go to market, for the upcome for the for

(41:28):
the planning period. So these are the keys, right, and
when it's happening in like when when, when you're doing
this as a cross functional team, then you come to
the consensus and then you altogether can decide if it
makes if it's what you have planned, is it working
or is it not working? Not just blaming each other

(41:49):
and then or presenting on the board meet and the
completely disconnected plans right that havensson with them.

Speaker 2 (41:56):
With the needs of each other.

Speaker 3 (41:58):
So this is this is the kind of again this
was strategical, but at the same time technical point. Now,
let's move forward to some technical solutions that you can
implement relatably fast.

Speaker 1 (42:13):
So the one we kind of already mentioned is if
we want to align on the target accounts, let's really define
what that means. How do we what specifically theory that
we can use to say, this is an account that
sales will want to work on, this is an account
that we considered a good fit. And there is a

(42:36):
term that is used in some organization called sales accepted
sales accepted lead. Right, Well, let's define that so that
the majority of the leads that we generate become sales accepted.
They said that there is no pushback, that there is
no discussion later on. It removes so much weight from

(43:00):
the whole process. It helps you with your targeting, it
helps you with your messaging, It helps you really focus
on the same accounts. And what I mean here by criteria,
we have here a simple example from ourselves and it
will be a little bit more complex. In most organizations,
we are a small consulting company, and we are very

(43:22):
much focused on one niche, but in other organizations it
may be a little bit more complex. And what we
like to note down are the qualification the thermographics criteria,
and these are criteria that can even be extracted from
the CRM, like basically looking at the one deals, sorting

(43:46):
them by revenue that they generated, then taking let's say
the top twenty percent that make up let's say eighty
percent of revenue, whether this is like top ten, Nike up,
top seven or whatever, but like the biggest ones, then
looking at calling that a tier one, then looking at
the next chunk, calling that a Tier two, let's say,

(44:11):
and then the last let's say, maybe a bunch of
accounts that all together generate twenty percent of revenue. We
may call them tier three, and then look at what
they have in common from the thermographicskit. I mean, this
is an exercise that you might be able to do
even without unnecessarily sales input, but it would definitely be
good to review this with sales. The next thing our

(44:34):
criteria that are specific to your business, to your company,
to this type of market. So, for example, in our case,
the size of organization could be important. But what's even
more important is the size of the marketing team. Right.

(44:55):
So you might have a large organization I don't know.
For example, a lot software development companies traditionally and they
used to have a marketing department, had a very small
marketing department, right, whereas you had you know, other types
of companies with larger departments. In our case, for example,

(45:16):
the size of the deal size, right, the average not
our deal size, but the average deal size of our
prospect is an important criteria for us. For US, it
doesn't really make sense to work with companies that have
an annual deal size that is smaller than thirty fifty k. Right.
Complex ABM that is supposed to help you engage multiple

(45:41):
buyers and takes you know, multiple teams to work together
really starts paying off from that deal size, et cetera,
et cetera. So specific criteria that are relevant to you
capturing the buying committee and okay, we had different pieces
diving more details, but not just generic or roles, and

(46:06):
a lot of organizations you will be like, oh, it's
the c suite almost. I mean, this is something that
I hear very often. It's like, oh, it's the CEO
or maybe the COO, CFO whomever might be that CIO
or the chief IT person, right, I mean, are they

(46:27):
really the ones who are deciding maybe as when they're involved,
but who are the other ones? Because especially as marketing
for us, when we are talking about challenges, when we
are marketing really in the top of the funnel creating
that awareness very often we really need to understand also

(46:48):
who are the potential champions or people who can recommend
us in organizations which are not usually not the top executives.
So naming that buying committee, understanding the roles and their
key KPIs is an important part of that. And also
important is to look at this qualification criteria. So the

(47:09):
best way to do this is you sit together with sales,
you look at one deals and you discuss like over
the common patterns and you extract the qualification criteria and
then you lost look at the lost deals and then
it discussed, Okay, what was specific about those accounts or

(47:30):
those situations that made us not be competitive there? And
are there any patterns that we should take when we
are looking at new accounts to maybe de prioritize them.
So this qualification or at least deep prioritization criteria. So
this is something that you can definitely do with sales
help you trim the targeting and the market focusing on

(47:54):
right accounts and avoid discussions later on when you say, hey,
we have this unity, Well, no, it's not a good fit.
You don't want to even have that.

Speaker 3 (48:05):
So the second tactical solution is joint content planning. Quite
often we hear from marketing that sales, the sales team
doesn't want to use marketing collateral, marketing posts, PDFs, et cetera.

(48:25):
And again we spoke a lot about the reasons why
it might be happening.

Speaker 2 (48:30):
But this could be.

Speaker 3 (48:33):
Solves relatively easily when you do, like we just discussed
the planning together. Part of this planning could be the
content planning, and you can break it down into three eras. Right,
what is the let's say, what are the ongoing needs
of our buyers?

Speaker 2 (48:50):
What are the ongoing interests? What's something?

Speaker 3 (48:53):
What is something that we can create that can attract
an attention of a broader audience of our target buyers,
which might be sitting in one to many layer then
one to few if we focus on specific use case,
specific subset of accounts. Right, what might be relevant for
these specific accounts, what maybe specific challenges, specific interest they

(49:16):
might be having, and what we can create. And lastly
one to one content right, we can review the existing deals,
or we can review the most engaged accounts and then
think about what can help us, what types of content
can help us to actually to share with the buyers
so they would be interested in talking to us, or

(49:40):
what could help them with the internal conversations right as
a part of buyer enablement to sell our product internally.
And when you have this discussion with sales, quite often
you'll see that the needs or the ideas they we
are sharing, we're not included into your content plan. Why again,

(50:06):
that could be multiple reasons. One of the most popular
is that content planning historically is aligned with the product market.
And the first thing that we are Karen, is the
organic creature, which is again today and in the upcoming years,

(50:28):
we need to completely switch from that strategy because of
the change and drops in the organic traffic because of
l l m's right. But the entire point historically we
were looking for the keywords, we were thinking about the
organic traffic, making sure that our content would be ranked,

(50:51):
and quite often it's completely disconnected with what sales needs,
how that could be solved. You can see a snippet
of a people exercise that we have done with what
the quad ends. You can see the name of the webinar,
how to survive as a B two B CMO and
generate enterprise pipeline in the EI era. And then basically

(51:14):
what we were doing we were discussing together about the
jobs to be done off the buyer persona, what is
the biggest challenge, the root reasons, what are the different
ways to solve this challenge, what our buyers might be interested.
Obviously we also validated this with let's say, with the
buyer personas that we were thinking about and when we're

(51:37):
going through it right, we were thinking about what what,
what resources could be helpful and we were thinking in
these three lenses. This is this is important, right, What's
what pieces of content would be appealent to a product group?
What what what pieces of content would be appealan to
a smaller group. And then later for specific accounts, what

(51:59):
could help them to kind of initiate that change management
in the organization. So the quickest fix to it is
creating a good agenda, creating a questionnaire or maybe you
already help one and invite your sales colleagues to the
content plan and then start discussing was done. It's also

(52:23):
well always recommend aside from involved in sales, involving somebody
who is your subject matter expert, a person who used
to work as a target barer persona a person who
has deep domain knowledge, and then you can basically collect
the ideas from multiple sites and create a good content

(52:47):
that is likely to be used by sales. So just
think about it. And the only recommendation here is to
make it a structured meetium. Not just okay, let's brainstorm
what might be helpful, but think about what questions would
be good to discuss on that session. How can you

(53:09):
uncover the necessary topics and then prioritize it, right, that's
the key. Let's move to another topic here.

Speaker 1 (53:19):
It's all about planning. How are we going what are
the activities that we will need to use, channels, activities,
content that we're going to use to create awareness with
these accounts, to get information about their priorities and challenges,

(53:39):
and to then create actually discovery calls, you know, turning
that engagement into conversations, turning that into discovery calls, et cetera.
And it's joint planning because sales and marketing both have
a role in each of these steps. When it comes
to example, awareness creation and has just shared how we

(54:02):
could plan content together, So we need to make sure
this content is relevant for those target accounts. But then
we can go step further and ask ourselves, Okay, how
can we create content that will help sales engage with
target accounts? So we often like including content that will

(54:22):
be shared social content that will be shared from the
profiles of the salespeople, so that they can use that
to create awareness with target buyers and position themselves more
as let's say an industry peer or an expert, somebody
who's educating about the industry, not just knocking on your
door and trying to sell you something. We often also

(54:46):
include you, so and representing our planning where we included
a webinar or an event, this is another great opportunity
for sales to engage before the event, during the event,
and after the event. So, how can you use that
content in a way that helps sales? How can sales
also help us distribute that content If you're sharing, we

(55:09):
have their profiles for example, maybe we can if you
have the budget, maybe you can run some thought leadership
ads behind it and things like that. How can maybe
sales help us invite people to that event or a webinar?
The second question is I said like awareness. The second
question is we have awareness or these accounts know who

(55:33):
we are, but we are not necessarily sure what their
top priorities and challenges are. Are they even in the
market right now? So sitting together with sales and asking
what are the questions that you want to know about
those target accounts? What is the information that you're looking
for if you had to beat your compensation on an account?

(55:54):
What is the information that you would like to know
if you had to create a perfect pitch for that
account of completely personalized what do you need to know
before you be able to do that? And then mapping
those questions to also thinking about, Okay, we're going to
run a number of activities for marketing, can we actually

(56:15):
leverage those activities to get this information that sales is
looking for? For example, can we add that to a
poll of our webinar or a sign up in a
sign up form, or maybe we can let sales reach
out to people who are registered for that webinar and
ask them, hey, what is the one thing that you're
looking to learn during the webinar? What's the top priority challenge,

(56:38):
et cetera. And then so how can we leverage marketing
touch points? How can sales leverage how can we work
together so these touch points also become another touch point
for sales, maybe where sales can get some information. Maybe
we can work together with sales on co creation, like

(57:00):
maybe we can let sales ask their buyers or quote,
which is another thing we did when we were promoting
this webinar. We reached out our audience. Maybe some of
you have actually contributed to this common research co creative
research about how the see how the companies be to
be companies using AI AI these days excuse me, generative

(57:23):
AI these days, and which is another point of interaction
and another way to find out And finally, how can
we leverage this you know, what will be the activities
to then create opportunities, create discovery calls and opportunities with
those buyers. Can we maybe offer them some sort of

(57:43):
a bridge activity after that webinar or when we see
that they are highly engaged and we see that they
haven't need for example, some of our clients have turned
this initial content collaboration into some sort of mark research,
which was a marketing initiative, but then they worked with

(58:04):
sales when they had an opportunity to interview buyers, so
they kind of turn that research also into early into
early discovery, et cetera, et cetera. So it's all about
looking at the different levels of intent. Essentially from no intent,
We don't they don't even know who we are. Okay,

(58:26):
what is the appropriate action there is to create awareness? Right?
And we can't just called pitch them. We know that
that doesn't work up to Hey, they're highly engaged, they
seem to have a needed showing all the things there
is initial relationship. Okay, what can we do now if
they're not yet raising their hand to turn that into

(58:49):
the into the next discovery step. So one last point
that I wanted to share here is to make it
easier for you, look at the existing programs, look at
what's planned. Very frequently. I mean, this is one of
the questions we will we ask our clients when we're
planning a joint program, is Okay, let's look at what's

(59:10):
planned in terms of the content that is going to
be produced let's look at what are the events that
maybe your sales is going to attend, the events that
your team is going to launch during this period, and
let's see whether we can use some of those. Maybe
we can turn that event into more account based event.

(59:30):
Maybe we can align the topic of it with the
topic that we know we heard from sales is the
top priority topic that we are focusing on within this program.
And with that, you can actually create a program that
makes that helps you because sales is going to be engaged,

(59:52):
is going to be more relevant. You're going to have
better results and help sales with awareness and with multiple
touch points. And I think the only thing here is
to just make sure that it's very very clear who
needs to do what, to document this very clearly, what

(01:00:13):
are the different steps and who will need to do
what you see on this diagram, different faces that are
actually real faces from people and how they are actually
assigned to the different tasks, differ activities.

Speaker 3 (01:00:28):
And the last point before will answer some of your
questions because I believe the majority of them have addressed
with this presentation. The last point is developing shared metrics
and dashboards. Sales will still have their own reports market
and will have own reports, but we need to have

(01:00:48):
something in the middle that helps us to present, to share,
and to track also the joint impact on pipeline and
travel new creation, the joint progression. If we plan to
run any specific activities together, what would be the most
meaningful metrics we always recommend, especially if that would be

(01:01:12):
something like account based marketing or even doesn't necessarily need
to be account based marketing, any program where marketing and
sales are going to run the playbook together, the program together, right,
what would be what are our success metrics? What do
we want to get out of it? What are some

(01:01:34):
of our leading indicators? And I think leading indicators are
often missed why I mean why? There could be multiple reasons,
but without leading indicators, we end up with more kind
of random acts slash at hoc program execution. Even today

(01:01:55):
I had a call with Philo APF Marketing and he
said to me, we tried to do some sort of ABM.
We designed the program, but there is no visibility on
how many touch points sales actually did. And also we
have no visibility on how many let's say activities that

(01:02:17):
market and was supposed to do. We don't have this,
so everybody says I have done this, I have done that,
but there is no holistic overview, right, and then we
can't really make good decisions what we are running. Is
it working or no? Did we put enough effort into
this program?

Speaker 1 (01:02:37):
Oh no?

Speaker 3 (01:02:38):
Because quite often the problem and we all know this
subconsciously that quite often the programs are not working because
we are not putting enough efford to make it work. Right,
So what are our success metrics? What are our leading indicators?
And what are our leging indicators? And legon indicators could
be account engagement, account in, petration and discovery calls, booked,

(01:03:02):
pipeline created revenue the key point and we always recommend
to do this. Connecting the dots, even if that would
the sum let's say sought leadership program and you want
to involve sales, make sure that there is a clear
progression from prend to demand to pipeline. Right, how we're

(01:03:22):
going to capture this engagement and how then we can
proceed to conversations so there is always connection between let's
say top of the final.

Speaker 2 (01:03:30):
Activities to revenue creation.

Speaker 3 (01:03:33):
This would be essential and before well most questions, quick announcements.
So next week we'll have a special guest VP of
market and from Aligned Ashley Levin, and we're going to
talk about how to balance and plan always on and
strategic marketing programs. So Ashley built, we're not aligned, and

(01:03:55):
we have been partnering and was done for quite a
long time. And they started as far on the latter
and then sales latter organization and Ashley build a market
and team from scratch. So I think for many of
you it would be an interesting episode with tons of
insights how to refine your market and planning for twenty

(01:04:15):
twenty twenty six. So stay tuned and now let's move
to the qn A. But before we'll answer the first question,
let us know, guys, how did you like the episode?
Joshuabas asked your feedback in the chat, and we can
start with the first question from Amy.

Speaker 2 (01:04:33):
Well, they pick up this one lot, sure.

Speaker 1 (01:04:37):
So how does the institution of the chief growth officer
or the chief revenue officer roles aid sales and marketing
disconnect or connect or or doesn't? I mean it's up.
It's different organizations will implement this role differently, but unfortunately
a lot of organizations will implement the role of achieved,

(01:05:00):
especially a chief revenue officer will be a person with
a sales background, and it doesn't mean that again, it
will very much depend on their experience, their mindset, et cetera.
But when this person becomes in charge of both marketing
and sales, which is not always the case when you

(01:05:21):
have a CMO is reporting into the CEA doesn't have
to be but sometimes it does happen that this person
become in charge of both marketing and sales the sales background.
We've seen this happen several times when even though the
marketing has started to work closer with sales, have started

(01:05:41):
to work on more long term programs to generate future pipeline,
let's say, to generate long term results, these programs were
killed and switched to let's say leads leads leads kind
of programs where it's easy to attribute and easy to measure,

(01:06:02):
but it really depends on that person. In general, we've
seen always better situations where the marketing doesn't be put
into sales basically.

Speaker 3 (01:06:15):
And we have quite a lot of community questions, so
some of them we have already addressed. The tactical ways
to figure the ignorance. The best GPI, MKL or pipeline,
I think This is a good one, and we have
discussed it a couple of times. The most important point

(01:06:36):
here is moving from measuring or putting MKL as your
core marketing success metric. What MKL could be handy when
you measure account engagement, when you measure account penetration. Right,
So when you mark a contact as MQL, what what

(01:07:01):
should it mean a natural that this person works for
a company that fits your ICP criteria. Right, that could
be a good indicator, but it shouldn't be an indicator
or it shouldn't.

Speaker 2 (01:07:15):
Be a trigger for sales outreach.

Speaker 3 (01:07:18):
Hey, this person was markedt a MKL assigned to SDR
and expect them to close the deal. So as the
maybe as the leg and indicator as the part of
let's say account engagement program, it could be a good
one with this nuance that it shouldn't trigger the sales outreach.

Speaker 2 (01:07:38):
Right.

Speaker 3 (01:07:38):
So, but from again from the bigger perspective, obviously, the
CAR metric is not even pipeline. It's revenue because ultimately,
if your pipeline is not converted into revenue, then we're
doing something wrong. Right, So from that perspective, the CAR
metric is revenue, but there should be a past to revenue,

(01:07:58):
right from pre to pipeline creation. Where MKL was the
right definition could be a part of it.

Speaker 1 (01:08:06):
I think like speaking about mkl's the first question is interesting.
I think it's it's kind of similar to to what
only just responded to, but it's phrased interestingly. What should
be an ideal definition of mkluh so that sales considered
it immediately worth pursuing. And I think one answer to

(01:08:29):
that is that, well, let's agree that let's sale, right,
So let's together define one should an account be considered
by sale or pursuing? What is the kind of engagement?
What is the kind of inside that we should have
about that account for them to consider this worth pursuing.
And they may say just to just to kind of

(01:08:52):
pre empt this if you're thinking, ah, yeah, but they
will just say, you know, an account that's raising the
hand and most talk to sales about our product obvious
feel like that's that's what each and every sale person wants.
And by the way, this is how some companies actually
define their kills. But that's a totally another another topic.
But I think it's if you do end up in

(01:09:16):
a situation where sale might respond with something like that
it's worth like okay, but what about what if you
had the right type of company and the right type
of person who is you know multiple times on website,
who came to an event and ask questions about, you know,
the challenges that we can help them solve. Would that

(01:09:37):
be relevant and starting conversation from there like okay, what
are so it's not just somebody who says, hey, I
want to talk about your product and then really shaping
and defining this together what it could actually what it
could actually mean to be worth pursuing, just wanting to
drop that.

Speaker 3 (01:09:59):
And I say we can just pick the last one
about holding sales accountable. I think it's a good question,
and the truth is that in reality we have no
control over it and the can'ts really make them accountable
until they would A co create the program with us

(01:10:24):
and B they will clearly see how the program that
we are going to execute.

Speaker 2 (01:10:29):
Together will hit their targets.

Speaker 3 (01:10:32):
See they will see some early wins, even small wins.
This is essential to keep sales momentum and the one
way together define the success metrics break down. Break down
these metrics into some actions, into some leading indicators. What

(01:10:52):
we want to do and then as the team set
up the weekly targets. Okay, these are the tasks and
these are the activities. So let's say the volume that
we want to.

Speaker 2 (01:11:03):
Pursue this week.

Speaker 3 (01:11:05):
We all agreed that we're all agreeing that we are
going to commit to these targets. Okay, cool, And if
you already foresee that that could be a problem with
making sure that sales are accountable. What comes handy is
daily stand ups, just ten minutes meetings, not some specific

(01:11:27):
even could be a shorter once it's all about okay, hey,
how's your day looking like? What are you going to
do today? How many activities you're going to execute today?
How many or what specific tasks? Any is there anything
that is standing on your way? Is there anything that
is blocking you?

Speaker 2 (01:11:47):
And that's it. And reporting on the progress of the
past day.

Speaker 3 (01:11:50):
So sometimes we need to force this kind of accountability
with these meetings. But again there are the prerequisites that
I have mentioned, and this is what we have covered today.
If I want to keep them accountable, we need to
co create with them. We need to show them how
the program solves the challenges, how the program helps them

(01:12:14):
to hit bad targets, and then defined together success metrics
and the core activities or like what was what presenting
the joint playbook right, what we're going to do and
making it measurable and then either creating the giant dashboard,
not either creating the giant dashboards and maybe setting up

(01:12:35):
this they stand ups at least the weekly meetings right,
this is the bare minimum, but in ideal scenario, the
daily stand ups could come handy as well. Cool, Well,
we have covered everthon if like we mentioned, if that
would be anything, any resource that you guys would like
to get from us, anything that we have shared today

(01:12:58):
or mentioned to reach out to us on LinkedIn or
send us an email.

Speaker 2 (01:13:04):
And next week we.

Speaker 3 (01:13:06):
Are going to Houston Ashley and hope to see you
all again. Have a great rest of the weekend. Thanks
a lot for coming. Take care