Coming Out: Stories, Struggles, and Liberation

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Dave and Matt take you through the transformative journey of coming out in this deeply personal episode that balances heartfelt vulnerability with practical insights. 

Dave reveals his experience of coming out at 42 after a military career, marriage, and fatherhood. "Every day since that point onwards I've been the true, authentic me," he shares, detailing how family reactions surprised him in the best possible ways. Meanwhile, Matt discusses coming out in his early twenties despite knowing he was different from childhood, and the complex feelings of regret that his supportive mother "always knew."

The hosts unpack fascinating statistics showing how coming out ages are shifting dramatically across generations - from 19-20 for millennials to 11-14 for today's youth. They explore why one in three LGBTQ+ adults never come out to their parents at all, examining the fears and societal pressures that keep people in the closet.

What makes this conversation especially valuable is their nuanced take on why authenticity matters not just for yourself, but for everyone in your life. "The pressure of staying hidden is far harder," they emphasize, while acknowledging that timing and circumstances remain deeply personal.

Whether you're contemplating coming out, supporting someone who is, or simply curious about LGBTQ+ experiences, this episode offers both emotional resonance and practical resources. Reach out to us through our socials or email if you need support - we promise a judgment-free conversation.

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If you want to send us a question or would like our thoughts on a particular topic you can contact us at [e-mail] or contact us on any of our socials at Fully Grown Homos Podcast.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:06):
Welcome to Fully Grown Homos, a podcast about our
adventures as fully grown homosnavigating today's world full
of inquisitive friends,questions about gay life and the
unexplored activities of a lifelived as fully grown homos.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
We'll discuss the gay 101s, sex sexuality and topics
we don't even know yet, as wewant your input into what you
want to hear.
Nothing is off limits, so emailus on the Fully Grown Homos
podcast at gmailcom or messageany of our socials Fully Grown
Homos.

Speaker 1 (00:34):
With Dave and Matt On today's episode we're going to

(01:01):
talk all about coming out.
It's going to be a wholeepisode on coming out.
Lots different coming outstories, lots of different
coming out facts.
But before we jump into that,dave, I want to just touch on
something that I've seen in themedia.
It's a little bit perturbed tome.
It's irked me a bit.

Speaker 2 (01:22):
Now as an artist, he's pulling funny faces here,
so I'm waiting for the answer.

Speaker 1 (01:26):
As an artist I'm an absolute fan.
I went and seen this person.
I don't know what I'm allowedto call them anymore.
I'm allowed to see this personthat I'd seen I'm assuming
they're still identifying as ahuman in concert and they were
fucking spectacular a long timeago as a human in concert, and
they were fucking spectacular along time ago.

(01:46):
Sam Smith has recently come outas now wants to be identified
as an oyster, any particulartype of oyster, hopefully one
that gets fucking put back intohis shell.
I don't know.
What do you like?

(02:07):
Like, okay, now, I knowtraditionally, because we've had
many, many conversations, thatyou don't fully understand
people that identify asnon-binary, which is fine.
Well, it's not that I, no, no,it's not.
It's.
It's actually okay to notunderstand it because you are so
very much respectful.
If somebody, somebody, saysthey're non-binary, you ask them
what their pronouns are.
You ask them.
You're very respectful of whatthey wish to be identified and

(02:30):
how they wish to be identified,so that's fine.
However, an oyster.
What are your thoughts, dave?

Speaker 2 (02:40):
Could it be anything else?
Could be anything.
Why did he choose to be anoyster?
Does it say why he chose anoyster?
It doesn't say why.
What was he identifying priorto?

Speaker 1 (02:49):
this he was identifying as non-binary.
His pronouns were they themRight, okay, which is fine, I
get that.

Speaker 2 (02:55):
So run me through the whole process with non-binary
Yep.
You're still identifying as ahuman as such.

Speaker 1 (03:03):
Yes, okay, yes, so you're still identifying as a
human, so what does it classifyas if you're not a human anymore
?
Well, this is what I'mstruggling and listeners anyone
that's out there that can helpme work this out please feel
free to hit us up on our socials.

Speaker 2 (03:18):
Is there anything on Google that tells you?
No, I've tried, okay.

Speaker 1 (03:20):
I've tried.
So I understand the binary andpeople do identify as non-binary
and we've gone through it anumber of times.
Not on Mike, generally, becauseagain, I think you need to be
an expert before you try andpass yourself off as an expert.
Is this a?
If you identify as female,right, regardless of what your

(03:42):
assigned gender is, as femaleright, regardless of what your
assigned gender is right andyou've told me or I've asked, I
will give you the respect thatyou deserve and I will identify
you in using feminineidentifiers such as she, her.
If you have told me or I'veasked and you've told me you

(04:05):
identify as a male, I will giveyou male identifiers such as he,
him.
If you tell me that you'renon-binary and your preferred
pronouns or identifiers are they, them, I will do that exactly
and give you the respect thatyou deserve.
Where I just don't get and look,we've got friends that say that

(04:26):
, have said they just don't wanttheir child coming back and
telling them they're a cat,which again I just think is
silly, right, and that's justpeople pulling the piss and
being Is this legally allowed tobe?
Well, this is the other thing.
I don't know.
How could I just don't get anoyster.
Like what Is it in?

Speaker 2 (04:44):
our publicity stunt.
It's not, definitely it's notgoing back to April Fool's Day.

Speaker 1 (04:47):
No, it's not.
It's literally two days ago, or?

Speaker 2 (04:50):
yesterday it should have been April Fool's Day,
because it sounds like a fuckingfoolish thing to do.

Speaker 1 (04:54):
It's stupid and what it does is anyone.

Speaker 2 (04:56):
It ridicules that person?

Speaker 1 (04:57):
Well, anyone that is not un-binary, who identifies as
non-binary, and that the bigredneck fuckwit morons out there
that don't wish to give thosepeople respect.
It just doesn't lend them anyhelp as such, because people
then sit there and they go well,look at sam smith he's

(05:18):
identifying as a looser now andthey go well, he's taking the
piss.
Therefore, they assume thateveryone that's not identifying
on the binary are taking thepiss as well.
So I just think it underminesit.
So how?

Speaker 2 (05:33):
far do these people go in terms of changing their
identity?
Do they have to change theirname per se?
Do they change all theirdocumentation, such as their
passport?
How the fuck is he going to beon his passport?
Is he going to identify as afucking oyster?
This is what I don't get.
What's his fucking passportphotogram going to be like A
fucking pearl necklace orsomething like that.

Speaker 1 (05:53):
Well, he does like to wear pearls.
We know that, or they like towear pearls.

Speaker 2 (05:57):
That's what I'm saying.
This is ridiculous, okay, andthis is where I'm struggling as
well.

Speaker 1 (06:00):
Well, because I don't know now what to call them.
Because when he was, when samwas identifying as a male and I
would call him him, right whenhe chose to come out as
non-binary.
I'm quite okay with callingsomebody they, them, that
doesn't faze me at all, likethat's, that's called respect,

(06:21):
right.
But now they've come out as anoyster.
What are your pronouns?
As an oyster?
Like shuck, shucked, shell,pearl, pearl.
I don't, I just don't.
You're making it too hard forthe world, right, you're making
it.
This is the thing.
I would be calling him clown.

Speaker 2 (06:41):
Not clown.
Clam oh, clam Sam, clam Samclamown, clam oh, clam, sam,
clam.

Speaker 1 (06:45):
Sam Clam, there you go.
Sam the Clam, there you go.
That's what I'm going to callhim from now on.
Going forward, Sam the Clam.
It just I don't know, it doesmy head in yeah but also I'm
confused.

Speaker 2 (07:00):
But it also ridicules that person as well.
It makes them look absolutelyridiculous in society,
regardless of what they do,where they are now.
I mean, he has such a good fanbase of people, he has such a
good reputation and I thinkpeople just look at him as a
joke.
Now, no, I can't even say himbecause I don't fucking know
what he is.

Speaker 1 (07:17):
That's the thing we don't understand.
We don't understand.

Speaker 2 (07:19):
That's what you initially classified him from.
Yeah, yeah.
That's what your visuals are oh, could you imagine someone
that's claiming benefits?
What the fuck are they going todo?

Speaker 1 (07:31):
I don't know, but anyway, all right, I don't want
to get caught up on this.

Speaker 2 (07:34):
Oh, you brought the conversation up.

Speaker 1 (07:40):
I did because I'm trying to understand it Now.
If any of our listeners canhelp me understand, look, I
fully understand the binary,like I said, I get that and
non-binary I get that.
But if you can understand thenew oyster lease or whatever the
fuck Sam's identifying as now,please shoot us a message, hit

(08:03):
us up on our socials grown homospodcast.
But let's get into our comingout day.
So I'm not going to sing anydiana or songs, but I might use
that as our um, as a theme songwhen I release this episode.
Yeah, but dave, let's hit themwith some coming out facts now.

Speaker 2 (08:25):
Okay, I'll let you go first.
I've been doing a bit ofresearch and it's quite
difficult to find a lot ofcoming out facts as such, but I
found one that basically putsresearch into the age
demographics of people that comeout, so the average age per se,

(08:46):
as according to the polls andstatistics that are online, it
says the average age of someonecoming out is between 19 and 20.
But that refers to themillennials and people of our
generation.

Speaker 1 (08:59):
Okay, but it's now.
Now We'll fact check that withour own coming out stories a
little bit later in the episodebut it's now saying that.

Speaker 2 (09:07):
However, lots of people came out during the
middle time, in middle schooland high school, yep, which
again is not necessarily myfactual um denomination, but
again I mean I do know peoplefrom previous, from my hours at
school that did come out of thatage.
So that does correlate.
So there is people in thatsituation, but it says hence

(09:27):
more people in youngergenerations now, such as my
son's generation, gen z, gen y,yep, um or post millennials you
know um going forward on the onegen.
Alpha beta is the new one, sowe've had beta, beta yeah, so
he's saying that the youngergeneration now are coming out as
young as four, sorry betweenthe ages of 11 and 14.

(09:50):
Okay, and he's saying 86%choose to tell their family or
close friends first.
Some choose not to come out atall to certain people because of
fear.
And it says one in three peoplein the LGBT community adults
themselves do not come out atall to their parents.
Full stop.
Okay, so that's the facts.

(10:11):
I've got in that line ofinformation, if that makes sense
.

Speaker 1 (10:16):
Yeah, yep, yep, and I do get that because I do know
people that still to this dayand they're so gay.
It's not even questionable,it's obvious, it's not
questionable.
You meet them and you assumethat they're gay, but according
to their parents they're stillstraight and you sit there and
go huh, how does that work?

(10:38):
Your parents aren't that dumb.
They've actually got eyes.
And how many times have we heardpeople saying, especially
mothers, saying that we alwaysknew, we knew, we always do,
yeah well, look when I came out,and again, we'll touch on our
personal stories a little bitlater, but my mum already knew,
right?

Speaker 2 (10:55):
mine didn't, yeah well yeah yeah, it was a shock
for her.

Speaker 1 (10:59):
Yeah, absolutely but yeah, but yeah okay so what
about yourself?

Speaker 2 (11:03):
have you so?

Speaker 1 (11:03):
I've got.
So I've got an interesting factthat the first person to come
out was a long, long time ago ona land far away Bethlehem.

Speaker 2 (11:14):
No, Germany, actually Germany's got quite a
correlation to the last.

Speaker 1 (11:18):
Yeah, lots of things, and we have listeners in
Germany.
So, hey there, germany, lovehaving you on board.
Thank you very much forlistening.
But we've got and I'm going tosay this wrong because I do not
speak German but it's KarlHeinrich Ulrich who's considered
many of the first gay activistsof modern times, and he came

(11:40):
out well, he was born in 1825,but he wrote lots of different
essays throughout his times andstuff like that as well.
In between 1863 and 1865 hewrote five essays on gay love.
He I think in 1820, 18 with hispublished published.
Oh, wow, okay, all right, um,and that's what we're talking

(12:02):
about 1800.
So that's pretty full on Yep,the Riddle of a Male, male Love
he wrote.
So he's actually written lotsand lots and lots of gay
dissertations and stuff likethat.
There's a whole massive articleon him and it's really quite an
interesting read.
I'm not going to sit here andread it because I think that

(12:24):
part's boring.
If you're listening to me, buthe was born in August.
Of course he was Leo the King,but as a young child he actually
wore women's clothes.

Speaker 2 (12:37):
I don't think that was uncommon back then, because
clothes were unisex anyway, Ithink.

Speaker 1 (12:40):
Yeah, he preferred to be making friends with girls
and even expressed a desire tobe a girl, so he was possibly
even trans, which way backbefore we even knew what trans
was.

Speaker 2 (12:51):
Obviously, but wasn't he totally illegal?

Speaker 1 (12:55):
It wasn't, yeah, although gay acts weren't
illegal in Hanover yet, so itwasn't illegal yet.
So, it had become legal lateron, right, but he still got
fired from his job as a civilservant.
Okay, so yeah, but he um wroteessays on gay love.
He's written lots and lots ofstuff um, but yeah, he um passed

(13:17):
in 1895 from yeah it doesn'tsay what I'd say.
Did he pass as a girl or a boy?
No, as as in, passed away, died, dropped dead, yeah, but yeah.
So he did lots of really goodwork at coming out, and it
doesn't say exactly when he cameout, but he ended up living the

(13:37):
last 15 years of his life inItaly as well, so it was a
little bit more, I guess,relaxed and a bit chilled and
stuff like that basically europeat that point was very
accepting of everybody, Isuppose well yeah, we've gone
like full circle, haven't we?
we've gone.
Germany traditionally has beenquite um quite liberal if we're

(13:58):
talking, if you talk back when Iwas until back when I was
younger.
I was thinking about porn andstuff like that, all the weird
stuff and all the kinky stuff.
When I say weird, it's notweird anymore, it's just fisting
.
Don't make me choke, sorry.
Yeah, that sort of stuff wasall from Germany.

Speaker 2 (14:19):
Anything that you thought was naughty, really
naughty, was all from Germany,but RTL on the television,
because that was the best siteto find all those things, wasn't
it?

Speaker 1 (14:28):
Yeah, yeah, do you remember RTL?
I don't, that's German.
Was it German porn?

Speaker 2 (14:33):
No, a German TV show that had lots of nudity on it.
Oh, did it.
Yeah before it becamemainstream.

Speaker 1 (14:39):
There you go, there you go, but yeah, so go, so yeah
, but um, but yeah.
So look, um, carl, um, thankyou for coming out and for um
helping the world to come out aswell?

Speaker 2 (14:50):
do you know what the definition of coming out is,
matt?

Speaker 1 (14:52):
oh, the process where an lgbt person shares their
sexual orientation and or genderidentity with themselves and
others.
Coming out is not a requirementof being LGBTQ plus in any way.
It is a deeply personalexperience.
For those that do come out,most find not to be a singular
one-time experience, but rathera series of coming out through

(15:14):
life and that is facts.
There you go.
You come out often and often,and over and over and over again
.

Speaker 2 (15:25):
Have you got some other kind yeah.
So I've just got some referenceto the National Coming Out Day,
yeah, which was established in1988 in America.

Speaker 1 (15:33):
So that's a long time ago as well, yeah exactly which
again?

Speaker 2 (15:35):
I mean we've gone from being in the 80s, when AIDS
and HIV was such a prominentthing, yeah, and gay people were
bashed, and still do get bashed, unfortunately yeah, but not as
much, still hate crimes, yep,yep, um, but you're talking the
80s and that was like synonymouswith homosexuality and, um,

(15:58):
what you call it, um, homophobia, homophobia, yeah, and, and you
know the whole aspect of beinglocked away and criminalised and
everything else.
So that surprises me that itwas back in 1988.
But it was established in 1988as a way to encourage
individuals to come out and tobe involved in society.

(16:20):
It's a day of celebration, aform of activism, and it's now
observed on 11th of october eachyear, and it's exactly one day
after the second national marchin washington of the lgbtq
rights okay so there you go.
So yeah, so for me, leading onto that, I said you know he
follows on and says it's comingout important, and why do we

(16:42):
have to come out?

Speaker 1 (16:44):
So there's some of our questions.

Speaker 2 (16:45):
Before we jump into those.

Speaker 1 (16:47):
If you go onto the Trevor Project website, which is
thetrevorprojectorg, which is agreat website, but there's
actually a coming out handbookfor young people as well.
Now, you don't have to be young.
As we discussed, we wentthrough and did we target off
that there is differentdemographics that come out of

(17:07):
different stages of their lifeas well.
So, um, and I think, yeah,there's all different times now
you can come out at any time,but I think what we'll do is
we'll jump into our stories now,yeah, and we'll, we'll go
through that, um, so yeah, butbecause that leads on for mine
anyways, for the thing anyway,yeah so is coming out important.

(17:29):
All right, dave, what do youthink?

Speaker 2 (17:31):
um, I think it's important to the individual,
depending on what circumstances,depending on what environment,
depending on what pressures orresponsibilities you have going
forward.
So, for me, coming out to mewas important, in a way of being
able to be myself.

(17:52):
Yep, I don't think it'simportant that I have to come
out to anybody, or I don't feelthat I should have had to come
out, but for me, coming out hasled me to be the person I am
today.
It's allowed me to be free andI do feel free and I don't hold

(18:12):
anything against myself anymore.
I mean, it was scary.

Speaker 1 (18:16):
So you came out later in life.
Absolutely so I've got thisquestion down the list, but it's
probably a good time to askthat now.

Speaker 2 (18:23):
When did you come out ?
Give me an age?
So I came out.
I'm just trying to think thatway there.
So I came out around about 42,42, 43 so not that long ago.

Speaker 1 (18:36):
So we're looking.
You're now 55, so 54, 55 thisyear.

Speaker 2 (18:40):
Yeah, 54 54 yeah, so say say between I know so 12
years ago, well, maybe, yeah.
So say between I don't know so12 years ago, well, maybe a bit
longer, maybe I was like 41,maybe I don't know.
So between you know.

Speaker 1 (18:52):
So you would be considered somebody that's come
out late in life.

Speaker 2 (18:55):
Yes, I did.

Speaker 1 (18:56):
Late in life.

Speaker 2 (18:56):
Look, I always knew.
But, like I said, coming outfor me was the liberation fact
for me to be myself.
Yeah, the process involved wasvery up and down it was dark.

Speaker 1 (19:10):
Yeah, you know, and again you've told some of your
stories.

Speaker 2 (19:12):
You're going a bit deeper yeah, but in the terms of
the question coming out isimportant.
I think it's important to theindividual at that time and that
place and that reason, if thatmakes makes sense.
Yeah, it's a personal journey.

Speaker 1 (19:25):
It definitely is.

Speaker 2 (19:26):
And what about yourself?

Speaker 1 (19:28):
So for me, yeah, it's coming out important.
Was it important?
Definitely, I think it'sextremely important to me.
It was extremely important tome and is extremely important to
me because it allowed me to bewho I was.
Finally.
So I and, as most and I don'twant to speak for everyone

(19:48):
because I can't speak foreveryone, but as most lgbtq
people, um, um will know thatwhen you're hiding something, um
, you're hiding not just thatone thing.
I wasn't just hiding being gay.
I was hiding lots of thingsthat I thought people would

(20:11):
potentially pick up on, butyou're hiding your personality,
correct?
I was hiding behind a wall ofso many things that I was
worried that if I showed one ofthose things, somebody would
point it towards that it'salmost like holding a mask up in
front of your face for 25 days.

Speaker 2 (20:29):
Oh, I definitely wore a mask.
You know?
What I'm saying is it's hardwork, it's fucking exhausting.
Because, when you are theperson you are, and all you ever
want to be is the person youare.

Speaker 1 (20:39):
Yeah, and yet I love living authentically.

Speaker 2 (20:42):
Yeah, absolutely.
I.
I love living authentically.
Absolutely, I do too, and Ithink nobody should have to do
that anyway.
No, but unfortunately the waywe live our lives.
And going back to society, andI know it's 2025.

Speaker 1 (20:59):
And I came out when I was 21, 22.

Speaker 2 (21:03):
Yes, so 20 years before me.

Speaker 1 (21:04):
Yep, quite a while ago now, but that was still
fairly late, considering I'dknown, since I was well, I'd
known there was somethingdifferent about me from a very
young age.
Well, look at the people.

Speaker 2 (21:18):
I would say in the previous conversation the
average age was 19, 20.
Now it's going to 11 to 14.
So again I mean you would beclassified as coming out late in
life Now you were probably theright age, the average age, back
then.
But again I mean you can'texplain to people what it feels

(21:44):
like to have to go through thatprocess.
I mean you get it, I get it.
Anybody that's gone throughthat process gets it.
They do.

Speaker 1 (21:51):
It does give you, like I said, it gives you that
freedom right.
It gives you integrity.
All right, look, if I can behonest, because I say like we
were actually having.
We were playing some boardgames with some friends and
somebody said, oh what's?
I think one of the dares was orone of the truths, one of the

(22:12):
truths, yeah was how do peopleknow when you're lying?
right Now I don't have a tellbecause I don't lie, because
I've quite.
My integrity is quite importantto me, right?
So therefore I just say it howit is Now.
The only time I will generallylie is when I'm trying to not

(22:33):
hurt somebody, right as such.

Speaker 2 (22:35):
So if somebody is but that's a new white lie as well,
isn't it?

Speaker 1 (22:39):
It's a truth withheld rather than a lie.
So me being able to come outand be my true self has allowed
me to be true with everyone inmy life, fundamentally, yeah
because you do live a lot.

Speaker 2 (22:53):
You are living a lie.
All the time you're in thecloset, you are yeah, so it's,
and it's just painful.

Speaker 1 (22:57):
It was painful for me , so I think it's really
important to come out and liveyour true, authentic self.
Yeah, now, exactly, it's notfor everyone, all right, I get
that.
There are people out there that, for some reason, think that
they can't come out.
Trust me, the pressure ofstaying hidden is far harder.

Speaker 2 (23:17):
It's far harder it is right, it is definitely people
that will love you, right?

Speaker 1 (23:22):
or do you think won't love you because you've come
out?
They may not stick around inyour life.

Speaker 2 (23:33):
Unfortunately, as part of this community.

Speaker 1 (23:35):
I've been privy to so many questions that, after
people have come out, that otherpeople have left them, whether
they be family, friends, so onand so forth, but are they
really there for you anyway?
And this should be turned upfor your whole authentic self.

Speaker 2 (23:48):
Why I say coming out is important is up to the
individual at the right time inthe right place and thing.
But in retrospect I think toenjoy your life and to be free
as a person, then definitely isimportant to come out.
So why do you think we have tocome out, dave?
Why?

Speaker 1 (24:04):
because self-sanity yep, for one, but okay, so we're
living in 2025 now, all right,why is that?

Speaker 2 (24:13):
even a thing I know, and I think it is changing it is
.
Why do we?

Speaker 1 (24:16):
even give a fuck about what people are doing in
their bedrooms.
Well, this is.

Speaker 2 (24:20):
This is why the new generation coming through you.
You know the Gen Y, the Gen Zs,and moving forward are now
precedenting that common traitnow, they don't care, they
generally don't care, they don'tjudge anybody and I think, to
be honest with you, they've gotit right.

Speaker 1 (24:41):
It's a pretty good time.
It is a very good time.
It can be a pretty good timeand it's very good because they
pretty good time it is.

Speaker 2 (24:44):
It can be a pretty good time and it's very good
because they all are in the samepage.
They are.
There's no negativity, there'sno sort of like judgment.

Speaker 1 (24:53):
There's no, there's no, it's usually meant if
somebody decides they're goingto come out, even if they come
out, because again the youngergeneration, your, your
millennials, your betas andalphas and all that kind of
stuff, they're not even comingout.
They're just like, yeah, I'mhooking up with this person now
I'm hooking up so I'm sayingthey're so gender fluid and

(25:13):
they're not even actuallyputting a label on it.
So I think.

Speaker 2 (25:16):
I think it's a pretty good time there, so but, but I
think but it's also influencingthe people of our age and the
generations before them toreally sort of like open up and
say do you know what To think?

Speaker 1 (25:27):
a bit differently.

Speaker 2 (25:27):
Do you know what?
If they're not bothered, whyare we bothered?
Why do we even have names?
Why do we have labels?
Why do we have fucking anything?

Speaker 1 (25:33):
in life, god, we all.
Yeah, we have to have labels.
No, we don't.

Speaker 2 (25:36):
But yeah, anyway, that's a different different.

Speaker 1 (25:38):
Yeah, yeah, maybe I'm trying to get me started again.
I don't want to be an oyster, Iwant to be a man I wonder what
oyster makes not salad makessweet.

Speaker 2 (25:48):
I have to grill it um anyway yeah, um, so all right.

Speaker 1 (25:52):
So what is your coming out story?

Speaker 2 (25:54):
dave.
So for me mine is quite longand um challenging, I suppose um
coming from a militarybackground, growing up as a kid
and coming from you know beingborn in the 70s um raised all
the way through in the 80s,going through the whole, the gay

(26:15):
issues and the societal um, youknow negativity towards people
being gay put the fear offucking life into me.

Speaker 1 (26:23):
You know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (26:24):
Like it did for most people.

Speaker 1 (26:25):
It was scary.

Speaker 2 (26:26):
Like my dad came from .

Speaker 1 (26:28):
It wasn't normal, that's for sure.

Speaker 2 (26:30):
My dad came from a generation before us, and his
parents, my grandparents, camefrom a generation before him and
they were very, very racist.
They were very homophobic to away, but not in a nasty way.
They just said things that theywere so used to.
It was just conversation.

(26:50):
They were never nasty people.

Speaker 1 (26:52):
They never meant it.

Speaker 2 (26:53):
But when you hear people talking things like
people calling faggots andpoofters and stuff like that, it
does.

Speaker 1 (26:59):
It was never, ever mentioned in a positive light.

Speaker 2 (27:02):
No, but you don't know.
I mean, my dad knew a friendthat you know, he called him a
poof to himself for that, andyou know, and my dad being
military as well, which wascompletely homophobic all the
way through even my militarycareer as well um, you know, it
does put the fear of life intoand it makes you question.
You know, do I want to go downthis path?

(27:23):
You know, am I really going tobe accepted in society?
Yeah, so little do you know?
There's really no option.
No, so that's where my storystarts is basically being
socialized from a young age toconform to societies.
Yep, you know, believing youwere wrong.
Yeah, yeah, exactly, that'sright.

(27:44):
So I kept myself closetedinside and to some degree it was
fine.
You know, I didn't play on it,it didn't worry me, I didn't act
on it.
For me, going into the militarymyself was something that I
chose to do, something that I amglad I did, yeah, yep.
So, look, there's positives andnegatives to everything, and

(28:06):
I'm always believing that allthe way through life, and so
should everybody else.
But look, I mean, I wanted kidsfrom a young age as well.
So for me, I know, back when itwas all illegal, and you know
everything else, I was nevergoing to be able to have a kid
with another guy.
Yep, so illegal.
And you know everything else, Iwas never gonna be able to have
a kid with another guy.
Yeah, so for me you know thatwasn't gonna happen anyway.

(28:27):
So, um, I just told the lineand, to be honest, I put it in
the back of my head.
I didn't really sort of playacting, I didn't act on it.
I mean, there might have beenurges when I saw a good looking
guy and I thought, oh fuck, he'shot, or you know, I might go
back and I might fucking wankover a fucking, you know, work
colleague or something, notliterally, but wish I was.
You know, in my mind.
You know what I meanfantasizing and stuff like that.

(28:49):
You know it would always be.
Maybe you know about guys.
Men in your fantasies, yep, butthen I did sorry, I did find,
sorry, a pubic hair in yourmouth.
Yeah, I did find womenattractive and I still do find
women attractive.

Speaker 1 (29:03):
It's not that.

Speaker 2 (29:05):
I'm bisexual.
It's not that I'm straight, I'mdefinitely gay.
Oh, you are.
I definitely still like women.
I still find women attractiveand for me, marrying my ex-wife,
it wasn't something I didbecause I had to.
It's something I chose to to do.
I did fall in love with her,yep, and I do so she's awesome

(29:26):
and I still do care about her.
She's the mother of my child, um, and I'm grateful for her, for
allowing us to have him.
You know, I mean um.
So for me, you know, goingthrough the whole process was
what I needed to do, yep, butwhen my marriage broke down, for
reasons that aren't necessaryto explain, um, you know, my

(29:50):
choices became more available tome.
I was not in the militaryanymore and, bear in mind, once
I had my son, they changed thelaw anyway.
So, basically, literally abouttwo years, um, when he was born,
they chose that.
You know, homosexuality wasthen elite, it was legalized.
So therefore, by that time, Iwas already married, I was

(30:11):
already a father yeah, so you'renot going to go.
Oh well, I'll cast all thisaside but I was happy for people
in the military because it justshowed you know that they could
still do their job.
They were able.

Speaker 1 (30:22):
Yeah, exactly this is what it was what makes me laugh
so much.

Speaker 2 (30:25):
Right, and also statistics will always also say
you know, this is what gets me.
Statistics say that one inseven is meant to be gay.
Blah blah blah and you got96,000 people.

Speaker 1 (30:35):
I was gonna say how many military just in?

Speaker 2 (30:37):
just in, just in the, just in the air force, I was at
the time, 96,000 people, right,yeah, and you're telling me
there's not a single one personthat is gay.
That, to me, always made melaugh, yeah, and you know, as
soon as they dropped the legal,the curtain, yeah, the curtain
loads of people came out.
It was liberating for them, itwas, yeah, but for me, I still

(31:08):
chose.
You know, things were happy, Iwas, I was in a happy place, we
emigrated over here and then,obviously, a couple years later,
I had my injury, depression,everything else got to me, and
then my marriage broke down,everything else.
And then, you know, once Iunderstood and realized that the
marriage was over, um, butworking through the friendship
was still there, um, I was ablethen to sort of like focus and
think, okay, what will it belike to go and meet up with guys
, Yep, you know.

(31:28):
And this, this is where my,that's where your journey began,
my journey began.
So for me it was scary, yep,but on the other side, it was
something that it was.
It was terrifying, but it wasalso exciting as well, and I
can't tell you a specific, aspecific, should I say, a time

(31:50):
when I felt liberated.
It wasn't straight away, it wasstill like testing the waters.
Testing the waters, testing thewaters, feeling a little bit,
you know.
Oh shit, am I doing the rightthing?
I'm doing the right thing, butover time, because you're over
time you got to the point where,probably about three years

(32:10):
after my decision to meet upwith guys, yep, I met up with a
guy.
Um, I started dating him,introduced him to.
I started dating him,introduced him to both.
My ex-wife and my son Adamdidn't know at the time he was a
boyfriend, he just thought hewas a friend and his

(32:32):
interpretation was yeah, Iunderstand, he's a boy and he's
your friend.
You want to explain to him?
Well, he was quite young at thetime.
Yeah, yeah, exactly right, hewas, and you know.
But through the process ofevents, I couldn't stay with him
because it wasn't fair to me tobe with someone that was
already in.

Speaker 1 (32:52):
So had you physically told Debbie that you were gay
by that stage?

Speaker 2 (32:58):
No, I think she sort of like, she sort of like kind
of yeah, she kind of knew Ithink yeah, definitely yeah, but
I hadn't really said you know.

Speaker 1 (33:07):
I'm gay, the words yeah, I hadn't sat down and said
that I'm gay, so when did youtell your parents that?

Speaker 2 (33:13):
So this is it.
So my parents were probably thelast ones I told from my family
.
Yeah.
So Debbie and Adam knew first.
Yeah, and yeah.
So debbie and adam knew first,yeah.
And then I told my sister andmy niece, yep.
Now I remember specifically theday I I'd already told debbie
and adam.
So about a month or so later Idecided okay, I need to tell my

(33:34):
sister and I'm very close to mysister um and my.
I went out with my sister and myniece somewhere I can't
remember, and my sister had goneoff somewhere for about 10
minutes and I sat down and Ijust said to my niece, you know,
I said I've got something totell you.
I was pretty nervous, you knowwhat I mean.
And I remember saying to herlook, I said you know, I'm gay.

(33:55):
And it was the best experienceof my life because she turned
around and said oh, and shelooked at me and she came over
and gave me a hug, bear in mind.

Speaker 1 (34:10):
She was only in her 20s and she said oh, that's cool
, I always wanted the gay uncle.

Speaker 2 (34:12):
Oh, which is great that's exactly the direction,
yeah, and I think that thatdefinitely helped.
So we got in the car, we drovesomewhere to the next donation I
can't remember it was, I thinkit was in winter somewhere and
we got out the car and I I saidto my sister look, I've got
something to tell you.
And she goes why, what's thematter?
What's the matter?
And obviously everybodyautomatically thought everything
was wrong with my back becauseof my injury.
Everybody sort of focused on myinjury as a problem and I said

(34:35):
she goes, what's the matter?
And I said look, I've just gotto tell you that I'm gay.
She said okay, um, and my niecelooked at her and smiled and
said yeah, it's cool, isn't it?
And she said yeah.
She said well, well, you know.
She said you're still mybrother, I still love you.
And then, it's strange, it justthey've been adam, though that
was a straight thing.
And again, I mean that was thecase of like, do they know?

(34:56):
You know?
I mean, and I get it.
And I said yeah, I told them.
And she goes does mom know momand dad?
And I said no, I haven't toldthem.
I said I've told them.
And she goes does mum know mumand dad?
And I said no, I haven't toldthem.
I said I've told them that youfirst, I'll phone them and tell
them tomorrow.
Bear in mind, my parents livedin the uk.
Yep, so for me it was verydifficult for me to have that
one-on-one conversation which alot of people do.
Yep, so for me it was a case ofskyping them, and I was skyping

(35:19):
them regularly, every weekanyway, and I remember having
this long conversation and mydad would always sit next to the
uh, the camera closer and havethe conversation.
My mom would be in thebackground fiddling around,
doing things, talking at thesame time.
And I remember coming to theend of the conversation and I
said, oh, I've got something totell you.
And my mom was like, well,what's the matter?

(35:41):
What's my what's up, what's up,what's up?
You know, naturally thinkingagain, something was wrong with
my back, something was wrongwith me, and I just said, look,
I'm gay and I don't know.
I I just felt this whole, Idon't know how to explain it to
people, but I felt very heavy onmy shoulders, you know.
I mean, yeah, it felt like Ididn't want to say it, but as

(36:03):
soon as I said it.

Speaker 1 (36:05):
It was out there, it's out there, it's out.

Speaker 2 (36:06):
Yeah, yeah, yeah and I was just like fuck, okay, I've
said it now, you know, I mean,and I remember my dad.
My dad used to have this very,very nervous sort of like smile
when he was like nervous, yep,and I remember him smirking
right and then he's just turnedaround and said that's fine.
He said you know, don't worryabout it, as long as you're okay

(36:30):
.
He said we still love you, westill care about you and again,
it's that reassurance side ofthings.
You know what I mean and then mymum was like, oh, I could see
my mum's June in the background.
I could see her just like, well, her brain was ticking, she was
definitely.
I mean, obviously they askedthe question.
I could see my mum's June inthe background.
I could see her just like, justlike Her brain was ticking, she
was definitely.
I mean, obviously, the answerto the question they've been
adding no.
And then I said yes, and I saidI told Paula, my niece and
everything else as well, andthey go, okay, anyway, the

(36:52):
conversation ended.
And then I remember the nextmorning my sister phoning me up
and she goes oh, mum's been onthe phone to me and I'm like,
okay, here we go.
And then she said, oh, she'sreally worried about you.
And I said but why?
And she goes oh, she's worriedthat you're going to get HIV,

(37:13):
you're going to get bashed upand all this lot.
And then she said to me shegoes, how did she?
And then she said why did hetell you before me?
She got jealous.
I, why did he tell you beforeme?
I don't know what it is, Idon't know.
You can't win, you know.
I mean no anyway.
So I remember phoning my mumback the next day or speaking to
them and I just said look, youknow, you've got to understand.
Society's changed.

(37:35):
You know I've had to learn.
Yes, I mean I was alwaysworried about the hiv and
getting beaten up and everythingelse.
But when you look into thefacts and you start doing
research and you startunderstanding that things at
that time had changed and we'retalking like in the 2000s, you
know, and things have changedeven more now.
Yeah, um, I just said to herlike you've got to understand,
you know, the chances ofcatching hiv and stuff are very

(37:57):
small now.
These days there are medicationsnow I can go fishing for all
other types of things, yeah, andI just said, look, you know,
and yes, there are still peoplethat do get beaten up, but it's
not like it used to be, you know.
I mean yeah, um, and yeah.
So for me it was, it was veryliberating.
I mean, I didn't tell all of myfamily.
I told my.
My brother got told by my momand dad.

(38:17):
They said can we tell?
I said, yeah, fine, you tellthem.
Yeah, um, but for me I didn'tneed to tell my aunties and
uncles what I'm tapping things.
I didn't need to, um, tell myaunties and uncles because, at
the end of the day, I don'tdiscuss their sexual preferences
, their sexuality to them.
If they found out or they knowwhich they probably do.
Yeah, then that's fine.
I, I don't care, I don't care,and I I got to the point where I

(38:40):
just thought, my god, theweight is lifted off my
shoulders.
Yeah, do you know what?
If the most important people tome and my family and they've
accepted me so do you know what?
if they accept me, there's ahigh probability that everybody
else is going to accept me.
If they don't, I thought, well,they're not in my life, they
don't need to be in my life.
So, yeah, so that was prettymuch my my journey.
Like I said, it was verylong-winded, but for me coming

(39:02):
out later in life was hard, yeah, but again, I think it's
something that I need to do.
I'm so glad I did yep, becauseevery day since that point
onwards I've been the true,authentic me yeah, you know it
was hard initially to gettingused to people talking about me,
because there was peopletalking about me and when I
found out but I thought well,I'm not having direct

(39:23):
conversations, they're talkingbehind my back and you know.
And if they're still talking tome, that's fine, you know, I
mean they just they did it'salways topic conversation.
There's always gonna be,there's always gonna be people
talking.
But does it, does it matter?

Speaker 1 (39:34):
does?
It doesn't matter, it wasn'taffecting me.
It wasn't affecting me, yeah,but it wasn't affecting me
though no, correct, you know.

Speaker 2 (39:40):
So for me it's one less person I had to tell
directly.
So if they found it indirectly,then so be it, they don't have
to worry about it.
And I mean correct, um, so yeah, so for me that was pretty much
my journey.
But again, like I said, everyday since that point I've been
myself and it's just been thebest way to be, yeah, yeah and
obviously yours is going to beslightly different because you

(40:00):
were younger.

Speaker 1 (40:01):
Well, mine is different Similar.
No different.
So I definitely had a differentupbringing than yourself, right
?
So I had a single mum,basically, and sort of the dad
left, sort of.

(40:25):
There was a domestic violenceissue way back when we were
younger and, um, they shouldnever have been together thank
god they were, otherwise wewouldn't be here um, as kids, um
, but they did the right thingby separating because one of
them would have been dead, oneof them would have killed the
other one, and when they went onto their respective partners
afterwards, like that, went tohis next wife and didn't ever
lay a hand.
So those two just together werenot the right fit, right?

(40:48):
Um, it's had a pretty roughchildhood growing up and the
area wasn't amazing.
Um, excuse me, the area wasn'tamazing.
It was a rough area where,again, like you said, that that
tone and that language that wasused being faggot, poof da, all

(41:08):
of that that was never said in apositive way, never, ever, ever
said in a positive way.
So when I was young, I knewthere was something different
about me, right?
So I knew from the get-go,right?
Um, my grandfather used to workat carnivals and stuff like
that.
So he'd work at the easter showand he'd work at any of those
carnivals where the you'd belike ringside and you'd have the

(41:32):
ring toss and the clowns andall that kind of stuff.
But he had this friend that wasmum used to call old gay arthur
, right, everyone used to say,oh, old gay Arthur's coming over
, and I knew, and I didn't know,that it was gay.
I didn't know what to label itBecause we were talking when I
was young, right, I knew thatold gay Arthur, if he come over

(41:54):
he could probably tell thatthere was something the same as
me.
So I used to distance myselftremendously from this guy.
So I used to distance myselftremendously from this guy.

Speaker 2 (42:06):
Is that because of the you know the Like, we have
that gaydar sort of thing.
You're worried about that sortof thing?

Speaker 1 (42:09):
Yeah, I was worried that other people would look at
me and look at him and think thesame thing, right?

Speaker 2 (42:14):
Or he's got that, or he might know.
Yeah, exactly, yeah Somethinglike that.

Speaker 1 (42:20):
So I was very, very nervous whenever he'd come
around, and not because he wouldever try and touch or anything
like that.

Speaker 2 (42:27):
So, there was no question about it, but you had
some pressure on yourself.
I had some pressure.

Speaker 1 (42:32):
So I knew something different was about me.
I didn't know what it wascalled.
I didn't know what it was.
I don't know about that.
And then I, as a younger man,like I'd started playing around
with guys from the age of around11, all right.
So therefore, I knew that therewas definitely something gay,

(42:52):
because I knew what gay was bythat 11, 12, 13 and all that
kind of stuff.
So I knew that hanging out andmaking out and sucking out the
guy's dicks and whatever it wasgay, right.
So I knew that there wasdefinitely gay stuff that I was
doing.
Right, I also had a couple ofgirls along that time period as
well, um, but I knew that theguys far outweighed.

(43:12):
But I knew it was wrong, right,no matter what anyone could
tell me, that was definitelywrong because it was always done
under covers, under darkness.
Yep, if I was playing atari withthe guy down the road, it would
be oh, man's playing with a guy, yeah, yeah, it'd be like, oh,
we'll do this after everyoneelse has gone to bed.
Right, we'll do it in the tentafter, when everyone else has no

(43:35):
chance of catching us, yeah.
So it was definitely discreet,discreet, disc, discreet,
discreet.
I got caught by the police in apublic toilet when I was 18
years old, or just around the 18, must have been 18 and a half
or something like that.
Had to go to court.
Got asked by my mum then areyou gay?

(44:00):
Because it's okay if you're gay, so she was quite supportive.

Speaker 2 (44:03):
She was okay, yeah.

Speaker 1 (44:05):
And I said no, definitely not gay, I was just
experimenting, all right.
I wish I had have taken thatopportunity then.

Speaker 2 (44:14):
But you don't, because you're so scared inside,
aren't?

Speaker 1 (44:16):
you Now retrospectively, I should have
seen the signs that my mum wouldhave been perfectly fine, right
, my mum had this boyfriend,leon um, and they'd go out to
the city, to the club, and she'dcome back and they'd say we've
been to the taxi club with allthe and excuse the word, because
that's a word that they used touse back then been to the taxi

(44:37):
club with all the trannies andthe homos and stuff like that,
and we've been out partying allnight.
She said I had this reallygorgeous drag queen that was
sitting on her lap and we weresinging along and was telling
all these stories.
So I knew mum was okay with gaypeople Yep, but it still didn't
make it okay for me to be gayYep, all right Now.

(44:57):
So 18 was when I got caught.
I'd seen all these otherbehaviours where I should have
known that mum was fine, yep,but my circle being my sister,
like my younger sister, becausemy older sister had moved away
to go to the army by that stageas well my younger sister, her

(45:18):
friends, all my friends, becausethey were a pretty tight circle
.
Anytime again, when that gaystuff was spoken about, it was
always in a negative connotation, right.
So it was never a good thingright Now, I think when my
sister came, my older sistercame back into my life and stuff

(45:39):
like that and we'd go outoccasionally and I'd go all to
these lesbian slash gay barswith her, had she come out at
that point herself.
Okay, so she still hasn't comeout technically, no, we've
always known, but she's neveractually officially come out at
that point herself.
Okay, so she still hasn't comeout technically, no, we've
always known, but she's neveractually officially come out and
said I'm a lesbian.

Speaker 2 (45:55):
She has now Okay.

Speaker 1 (45:56):
But there's a running joke that she still hadn't told
Dad up until a couple of yearsago.
Okay, we obviously knew rightall along.
But yeah, so it wasn't until Idecided I was actually going to
leave my workplace and go andmove down to Leichhardt to work

(46:16):
at Franklin's Big Fresh backthen, and I was going to move in
with my sister's girlfriend andmy mum said again are you
moving because you're gay?
And my answer was and it's likeI wish I could turn back time,
but it was yeah, I am, but it'snot my fault, it's just how I
was born and I was so defensive,so aggressive about it.

(46:40):
And I'm sitting there and I'mthinking she's gone, there's
nothing wrong with it.
Like you know, you're my sonand she'd known about it like
having, like.
Then my mum was the mostsupportive person, so I could
have all those years of Anguish,of anguish and stress and

(47:01):
anxiety about actually comingout.
we could have had the best time,Because then what happened was,
when I did finally come out,I'd take mum down to the Albury
Hotel for anyone that's fromSydney back in the late 80s
early 90s.
Oh, early 90s it would havebeen.
Yeah, all the way through 2000sometime.

(47:22):
The Albury Hotel was the pubthat you'd go to and they had
this hot barman, Derek.
Derek, if you're still aroundsomewhere, look me up, I'm sure
you'd still be hot.

Speaker 2 (47:34):
Was he gay Of?

Speaker 1 (47:35):
course he was gay, okay, but he was gorgeous.
But all the drag queens wouldbe there and we'd take mum and
mum would be sitting at thecorner of the bar, we'd be
sitting there having drinkstogether and we'd be checking
out drag shows together.

Speaker 2 (47:53):
She'd be checking out drag shows together.

Speaker 1 (47:54):
She'd be pointing out man, she'd go, that one's hot,
you sure he's gay, you sure hedoesn't want to come home with
me?
So this is the thing is likecompetition.
I literally had no reason to befearful.
Yeah, okay, now, apart from myfriend's circle.
So I did get told from mysister when she, when I
initially came out which oneFrom my younger sister.
Right, can you please not tellanyone, because my partner then

(48:21):
will probably dump me.
And so I kind of withheld it alittle bit.
Now again, I don't holdanything against her for that,
because she had literally fiveminutes to work out that I was
gay and everything that camewith it.
Right, she'd heard the samenegative slurs from our
community and stuff like that.
Now, she's been extremelysupportive of me over the years,

(48:41):
as has her partner.
When I did eventually come outto the rest of the family and
the group and everyone like that, they were all fine, there was
no issue with it.
Most of them said yeah, we know, right, we've known for years,
we're just waiting for you totell us.
So the thing is that it wasn'tnearly as big as it should have

(49:02):
been.
Like you know, it wasn't thebig issue that it was going to
that I thought it was going tobe.
It was just me and it was mytime and it was my.
But again, you have to be ready, you have to be willing to just
put it out there.
So, um, retrospectively it itwasn't the big issue that I
thought it was going to be.

Speaker 2 (49:22):
So I again, I was like 21, 22 max probably find
that probably at least 70%,maybe even higher would say the
same thing.

Speaker 1 (49:31):
It doesn't matter.
You know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (49:33):
It's irrelevant.

Speaker 1 (49:34):
The people that are in my life or that stayed in my
life, the people thatdisappeared from my life.
I couldn't even remember themnow, quite honestly.
And the people that are in mylife are the really important
ones because they support mylife, and I'll say choices,
choices, but it's not a choice.

Speaker 2 (49:51):
Did you find that when you came out that you
started gravitating more towardsthe gay?

Speaker 1 (49:58):
scene?
Well, I did, because I wasdefinitely discovering it.
But did you go bam bam likethat?
Well, I came out.
And then, when I came out, andI don't know who pointed me in
the direction it may have evenbeen my mum, probably your penis
.
No, no, it was a group run byAkon, okay, yep, and it was
called Young and Out West.

Speaker 2 (50:18):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (50:18):
Yep, and it might have been mum that said go and
meet up some other people rightthat are actually so she was
pretty smart.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, people rightthat are actually so she's
pretty smart.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Um, but I went into this groupand I met people, and I met
people like darren, my firstpartner there.
Yep, um, I met lots of people.
I met michael.
I've told you about michael.

(50:39):
He was one of the facilitatorswho had no arms.
Um, you did basically yeah um, Imet a lot of really good people
.
I met some fantastic peopleTrent, who was a really nice
young kid that desperatelywanted me to take his virginity,
so I did.
When I say kid, he was like 19,20.
I was 21, so he was a couple ofyears younger, but he was from

(51:03):
the Hills District and he wassuch a handsome boy as well.
And he was such a handsome boyas well, but yeah, so basically
that sort of helped me come intoterms with who I was and how
did you feel?

Speaker 2 (51:16):
Did you feel like euphoric the day after at the
same time, or did you feel?
I know you had that littlenegativity with your mum when
you said, yeah, I'm gay.

Speaker 1 (51:26):
It wasn't, you know, I think from then, because I'd
moved at the same time.

Speaker 2 (51:30):
Did you feel the weight off your shoulders?

Speaker 1 (51:32):
Oh the weight flew off my shoulders right, yeah,
but then, because I had actuallymoved at the same time, I kind
of left that whole blanket ofhomophobia, so you were
literally reinventing yourselfas a new person.
Yeah, I left it all behind me.
I moved out of Mount Druittinto Ashfield right, which is
close.
I was working at Leichhardt, soI was working close to the city

(51:55):
, which we all knew that was theplace to be.
Leichhardt was very much acosmopolitan place to be.
I met friends.
I met my friend Courtney.
Actually I think I met Tiffanyfirst, which was her sister, and
then later I met Courtney.
But then there was people inthe deli, like my friend Mel,

(52:19):
that they were fine with mebeing gay.
They all took me under theirwing, like the old Italian
ladies and stuff like that inthe deli, or like Sandra and
Patricia, all those ladies fromthe deli, or like sandra and
patricia all those ladies fromthe deli.
They took this little gay boyunder their wing and they made
sure that I was actually okay.
They'd sort of like apart fromthe friends and because I was
living with my sister'sgirlfriend at the time, she made

(52:40):
sure I was okay.
Um, so there was a lot ofpeople that were looking out for
me.
So it was really quitecomforting and quite and how did
you find the community?

Speaker 2 (52:51):
did you find it overwhelming?

Speaker 1 (52:54):
because I did so, okay, I was, and still am, an
extremely good looking young boy.
I was blonde, right, I was fit.
You're not blonde, you're not,I was blonde, okay.

Speaker 2 (53:07):
You're not blonde now .

Speaker 1 (53:09):
Fuck you, I'm bald as a badger.
I had beautiful blonde hair,right?
Yeah, I was fit.
I've seen bitches.
Yeah, I was fit, I'd do me, I'ddo me ten times over.
Probably Do me nonstop, allnight long.

Speaker 2 (53:24):
Oh, no, no.

Speaker 1 (53:27):
I'll leave that to Lionel.
But yeah, I was a good-lookingyoung boy so I was no shortage
of getting attention.
You were like a go-go boy.
No, no, no, I didn't go to thatextreme.

Speaker 2 (53:39):
No, but I'm saying in the looks.
Could have been.
Yeah, Could have been something.

Speaker 1 (53:43):
I was sort of like, yeah, I was definitely quite an
attractive young man and hadeverything in the right place
and sort of was discovering howto use it and getting that
attention coming out of MountTruett where I was.
Basically the attention that Iwas getting from living out west
was basically going to gloryholes and getting my dick sucked

(54:05):
by old men.

Speaker 2 (54:06):
So you went rapid, I went rapid Deep in yeah, yeah,
getting my dick sucked by oldmen, so you went rapid, I went
rapid, yeah.

Speaker 1 (54:10):
And I went straight in and I had all the fun and
didn't stop, okay.
And then I had a relationshipprobably for three years, then
had a few years off there, thenjumped into another relationship
and then had a few years, butyeah, so back when I was, yeah,

(54:32):
I was in my prime and I wasliving it up, but yeah, so
coming out was definitely areally good experience for me.
Yeah, I don't know many peoplethat coming out hasn't been a
great experience.

Speaker 2 (54:43):
Mine was definitely a great experience, you find your
family.
It was.
For me, I think, going into thethis social scene and, you know
, meeting people was definitelyharder because I had to build a
trust, but I didn't have a cluewhat the fuck I was doing, yeah,
and I was putting more pressureon myself again.
So, even though I was happywith myself being out and I

(55:06):
didn't have to hide and I didn'thave to go, you know not that I
ever cheated on my wife oranything.
Actually, I mean, I never didany of that until three years
after the marriage finished,yeah, and I didn't cheat then
because I was not in arelationship, um, but for me,
going out and venturing out intothe gay community was difficult
because it was a steep learningcurve yeah, it's massive, and
again.
I mean, there was some times Iwas excited, other times I was

(55:29):
fearful and other times I waslike really surprised.

Speaker 1 (55:33):
But your learning curve is also partially why we
started this podcast.
Dave was to actually educatepeople.

Speaker 2 (55:39):
Yeah, exactly that's right, but I know there are
still people out there now.
And that moves us on to anotherpart of the questions I want to
ask you as well, becauseobviously, now we've talked
about coming out ourselves,we've gone far further than what
we thought we were going to dowe did yeah but again, we will
carry on anyway and hopefullypeople will still carry on
listening.

Speaker 1 (55:54):
I hope that people we have bought people- it's
definitely going to be a longone, yeah well, it always is a
long one with you, isn't it?
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (56:00):
anyway.
So yeah, I was going to say toum in, in regards to you coming
out, do you still know people inyour life, either be friends,
family, work colleagues, anybodythat is still in the closet
that you know, that you thinkwould benefit from coming out?

Speaker 1 (56:20):
well, look, I have one and we don't talk anymore
because they were a negativeperson in my life.

Speaker 2 (56:27):
Song references man.

Speaker 1 (56:29):
Yeah, that's Cliff Richard.
I love Cliff.

Speaker 2 (56:33):
He was gay.

Speaker 1 (56:34):
He kept well with it, though yeah, no, he hasn't come
out yet still, so like he'srumoured to be gay, all right,
so no one getting their cellphone on any legal action.
But I have somebody that I usedto call a friend.
I don't call them a friend, andnot because they have made them
out.
Yeah, yep, and he was just he.

(56:54):
There was no denying,absolutely.
People meet this person rightand they assume he's gay right.
And he is.
I know for a fact he's gayright because I've caught men
leaving his house right.
So he's living in denial.
Yeah, he's got a wife.
She's living in denial.
Also, she was given a note fromone of my exes exes basically

(57:20):
telling her all about what herhusband does, where he goes, who
he does it with, when he doesit, and she chose to say that
was just a vindictive personthat was being horrible towards
them.
This guy had no reason to doanything horrible towards them,
but I know this guy's gay, heknows he's gay.

Speaker 2 (57:44):
His wife knows guy's gay, he knows he's gay.

Speaker 1 (57:45):
His wife knows he's gay.
His wife knows he's gay, buthe's choosing not to come out
because his parents.
He thinks that they'll actuallythink less of him.
Is he in the?

Speaker 2 (57:53):
same age group.
His parents know Is he in thesame age group?

Speaker 1 (57:57):
Slightly older than me, so probably 58.
So someone that should beliving his life Should be living
his life right, and he's amiserable cunt right.
I cannot like.
Hence why we're not friendsanymore, because any time you'd
meet, there'd be another sadstory, there'd be another bad
thing, like it's just a horriblehuman as well, so not a nice

(58:21):
person either.
But if he came out and chose tolive authentically, he might
not be that person.
And then what he doesn'trealize is that if he came out
earlier in life, um, and choseto live an authentic life, then
his wife could have actuallymoved on with her life, rather

(58:43):
than being trapped with somebodythat's going to actually cheat
on her whole entire life.
Right, because it is cheating,right, just because it is oh
yeah, if you're with a guy,you're with a guy that's still
cheating on the wife.
Yep, right, um, so it's not.

Speaker 2 (58:57):
It's not not cheating , because it's the same sex well
, this is the thing that I foundwhen I came out.
Um was there are a lot ofmarried guys out there and there
are a lot of married guys thatare playing behind their wives'
backs.
But you know one I know severalI probably know at least ten,
matt, I'm not saying that in athing, but I do and each and

(59:22):
every one of them has got adifferent background, different
story, and I respect that 100%.

Speaker 1 (59:26):
We would never out anyone.
That's the it's a personalchoice.

Speaker 2 (59:30):
It's a personal um.
It's a personal journey.
And circumstances, careers,work, you know, everything comes
into play, right.
So I don't judge anybody.
The only thing I do wish isthat they could be true to
themselves, yep, and take thatleap of faith, because it will
be a journey that they willeventually look at and say I'm

(59:52):
glad I did it.
You know, I mean, but it's notfor me to say that to them, it's
not for me to do it for them,and I certainly wouldn't out
anybody because, at the end ofthe day, that's not who I am and
not what I would want to do,you know I mean.
Correct.
But I just wish for their ownhappiness, that they could live
their life the way we are nowand just reassure them and give

(01:00:13):
them a hug and say look, youknow it'll all be all right,
Because it will be.
It will be all right and itwill be better for you and it'll
be better for everyone.

Speaker 1 (01:00:21):
It is tough actually, right, regardless of what age
you are.

Speaker 2 (01:00:29):
It does make me sad that people have to still live
this way because, again, throughpeer pressure, through society,
through anything else that isputting pressure on them to hide
their identity, it is a sad wayto live your life because
you're not getting the full youyeah.

Speaker 1 (01:00:46):
But what I also encourage anyone that is living
a closeted life to think about,if you're married, for example,
is to think about the otherperson in your relationship
right, which is the wife.
Now you're worried about themfinding out about you or
whatever their case may be, butthink about the life.

(01:01:07):
If you really cared for themand you really loved them, think
of the life they could go on tohave.

Speaker 2 (01:01:13):
Yeah, they can get remarried.
Who's to say that?

Speaker 1 (01:01:15):
they couldn't have the love of their life.
Even if they don't have thelove of their life, they might.
We've got, I've got somefriends right that basically
have separated from theirpartners and it hasn't been
because their partners have comeout or anything like that, but
they've actually gone on to livea really good life and they go
out with girlfriends.

(01:01:35):
They go on holidays every yearon a cruise right or to
different destinations.
Now, they would never have donethat had they stayed with their
husband, right, they'd justhappily be working along, going
on their little caravan tripsevery year, which they'd enjoy.
But now this person absolutelylives it up and you see their

(01:01:55):
holidays and you have chats withthem and they're living the
best life possible.
And if they were stuck in thatmarriage right, whether it be
for whatever reason, then theywouldn't be living that life.
Sorry, I'm playing putziesagain, treading on your feet no,
I thought I thought it was it.

Speaker 2 (01:02:11):
I think that was me.
I thought it was a dog tryingto eat your feet.

Speaker 1 (01:02:15):
No, no but yeah, so I'd say um, come out, I think of
everyone else and again.

Speaker 2 (01:02:21):
That is that is so right.
I mean the end day, you'redenying that other person not
only the truth, but also them,allowing them to move on in
their lives, rather than beingresentful, because they will be
resentful the longer you leaveit, the more it's going to
affect them, the more it'llaffect children, the more it'll
affect anybody in your life.
And I think you only live once.

(01:02:42):
Yeah, correct, just enjoy yourlife, have fun, have a.
You only live once.
Yeah, correct, just enjoy yourlife.
Have fun, happy, authentic life.
Yeah, don't hurt anybody,because all you're doing is
hurting yourself.
You know, correct, correct?

Speaker 1 (01:02:51):
um, so, yeah, so that's so that's been coming out
.
That's yeah, it's been a been along one.

Speaker 2 (01:02:56):
We've got to say the we, because we did have a
listener's question that we'regoing to say but I think it's
such a long winded thing andwe've already discussed pretty
much everything that that personwas going to ask us anyway
through our own conversationhere.
So, yeah, um, so if you arestruggling to come out, there
are people out there to help youpsychologists, there are
companies, there areorganizations like I said,
acon's a great, um great toolkit.

(01:03:16):
Yeah, um, you've got the travelproject which is online, which
is but look, also reach out tous, because we've had people
that have actually contacted usand we know they've actually
sent these emails to say thankyou for you know.

Speaker 1 (01:03:26):
Thank you for the info because they've helped them
come out a little bit andthey've come out later in life
and everybody's got a differentjourney.

Speaker 2 (01:03:31):
but if they can relate to one of us or to both
of us, or to anything we've saidtoday, then that's a positive
and at the end of the day, youknow, being positive, being
happy being yourself isdefinitely the way forward in
life, and if you are strugglingwith coming out, you wouldn't
from sydney and you want to sitdown and have a coffee or a beer
with us yeah, absolutely pleasedo.

Speaker 1 (01:03:53):
We're from western suburbs of sydney and we're
always happy to catch up withpeople like I've made so many
friends, it's a safe space withus as well.
We'll happily listen.
We don't't judge.
Happily listen.
And if you are super hot andthe thing is it hasn't stopped
me either, matt.

Speaker 2 (01:04:09):
It just hasn't stopped me going forward and
making not only gay friends I'vemade lots of.
I've made tons of friends, lotsof friends, tons of friends,
all different.
And again, what I've learnedover the years is people, do not
judge me.

Speaker 1 (01:04:22):
We've got so many good friends that we see every
week.

Speaker 2 (01:04:24):
Because we're authentic, all different age
groups that embrace us and sayand they come and give us a hug.
Every day and every week we seethem and they embrace us and
they look at us and say ohthey're the boys, you know how
are you?

Speaker 1 (01:04:34):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:04:35):
And it makes me feel like I'm normal.
We're royalty Because I'renormal.
I don't know about normal andeverybody's normal.
I don't want to be normal,everybody's normal, if normal is
a normal word.

Speaker 1 (01:04:46):
Yeah, all right, so this has been our coming out pod
.
We hope you've enjoyed.
Remember, national Coming OutDay is the 11th of October, a
little while away yet.
We'll remind you as it getscloser, yep.
But if you have any questionsor anything you want us to talk
about, hit us up on any of oursocials at Fully Grown Homos

(01:05:07):
Podcast or our email address atfullygrownhomospodcast at
gmailcom.
And I've been Matt and I'vebeen Dave and we'll see you next
time.

Speaker 2 (01:05:19):
See you, goodbye, bye .

Speaker 1 (01:05:23):
That's a wrap from us .
We've been your Fully GrownHomos and we look forward to
opening your mind, your ears andyour curiosities.
Don't forget to like, commentand subscribe and share our
podcast with your curiousfriends.
You can contact us onfullygrownhomospodcast at
gmailcom or any of our socials.
Fully Grown Homos Podcastpodcast.